7/01/97 (20)
•Answers from the prewrath view - Ron 7/07/97 (19)
•Re: Answers from the prewrath view - Dan Dudley 7/12/97 (18)
•martyrs/chronology - Ron 7/15/97 (1)
•Re: martyrs/chronology - DD 7/20/97 (0)
•martyrs/chronology - Ron 7/15/97 (3)
•Re: martyrs/chronology - DD 7/21/97 (2)
•Re: martyrs/chronology - Ron 7/22/97 (1)
•Re: martyrs/chronology - DD 8/03/97 (0)
•prewrath answers - more - Ron 7/15/97 (3)
•Re: prewrath answers - more - DD 7/21/97 (2)
•wrath - Ron 7/23/97 (1)
•Re: wrath - DD 8/03/97 (0)
•Rev. 14 - reapings #4 - Ron 7/15/97 (1)
•Re: Rev. 14 - reapings #4 - DD 7/21/97 (0)
•Rev. 14 - reapings #3 - Ron 7/15/97 (1)
•Re: Rev. 14 - reapings #3 - DD 7/21/97 (0)
•Rev. 14 - reapings #2 - Ron 7/15/97 (0)
•Rev. 14 - reapings #1 - Ron 7/15/97 (0)
•Re: Answers from the prewrath#1 - Ron 7/14/97 (1)
•Re: Answers from the prewrath#1 - DD 7/21/97 (0)
D1:question # 6. From Heb 11.40 we learn that OT saints could not be made perfect without us. The posttrib rapture position indicates that both OT saints and we are made perfect at the same time-at the posttrib rapture. The prewrath position has OT saints WAITING to be resurrected until the first day of the Millennium (THE SIGN, pg. 297).
rgw1:Van Kampen’s view does - but the Bible views it differently Again, I do not agree with his view at this point. You may want to check out my article, “The Saints in Heaven” on my web site. Indeed, my whole prewrath scenario as it is in the “Prophecy Perspective” section of the site.
D1:If they could not be made perfect without us, how can we be made perfect without them? It seems consistent with the revealed character of God, that we should not be made perfect without them if they cannot be made perfect without us.
rgw1:Briefly, “made perfect” at Heb. 11:40 is not referring to resurrection, but to the “securing” of their salvation promised in the OT. It was not secure because it awaited Messiah’s sacrifice and resurrection. That is why they resided in paradise in Hades in the earth. After the victory, Messiah took OT believers into the presence of God in the 3rd heaven. So that now the same writer of Hebrews can tell us that our access to heaven (Heb. 12:22-24) is to - - 1. the church of the firstborn enrolled in heaven: i.e., church age believers who are there via 2 Cor.5:8 or simply the “positional” church which resides there (Philip. 3:20) or both. 2. AND the spirits of righteous men MADE PERFECT. These are OT believers, now in heaven instead of Hades who are viewed as a separate group from the church but share the same location (in the city). This explains that “made perfect” refers to security in the presence of God - for they did receive it via Christ’s victory. But it was not before that very victory was applied to those (“us”) who would trust in Christ after His resurrection.
D2: Even if this is true, the principle of the OT saints waiting for us and thus us waiting for them still applies.
You commented: Because of the way things happen there will of necessity be these “stages” to resurrection. : The group at Rev. 20:4 is very restricted by the language. I am not able to view that group as any other than JUST those who died at the hand of the beast prior to Armageddon. It is NOT a rapture passage. It only includes the martyrs. : 1 Thes. 4 includes the living and the dead. dd3 Is this a common prewrath position? How then is it called the FIRST resurrection. 1 Cor. 15 20-24 gives three stages to the resurrections. Christ the first fruits ( the promise of our coming resurrection) then those who are Christ's at His coming. (The rapture and second coming and the resurrection of OT jews after the trib as prophecied in Dan 12:2 and THE resurrection on the last day refered to by Martha Matt. 11:24) Then the end comes (the resurrection of the unrighteous) To add other resurrections or to add "stages" to the first resurrection is weakening your position by detracting from the meaning of the word FIRST when these can all be harmonized as one resurrection
. You asked: Who goes alive into Christ’s eartly kingdom to populate the earth at the beginning of the 1000 years? dd3: Excerted from my home page, URL below) I believe there are four possible groups which will enter the millennium. First, the Bible implies that all Israel will be saved as the deliverer comes from Zion. #Isa 66.8, Zech 12.10, Rom 11.26
I believe these are jews who miss the rapture because they are not believers, but are saved as they see Christ descending in the clouds. Thus they enter the millennium in unglorified bodies. If jews are saved as they see Christ descend I believe some gentiles may also be saved at that last moment before He returns to earth. This would be the second possible group which enters the millennium.
The next two groups of people who potentially enter the millennial kingdom are speculation on my part. The third group is young children of believers (before the "age of accountability") and retarded people who may be healed in the millennium, whose parents were taken in the rapture. The fourth group would be young children of unbelievers and retarded people whose parents are taken in judgment.
These suggestions do answer a question that I have not heard pretribs or prewarthers answer (except that all babies are raptured). That question is, "What happens to the unsaved young children of believers who are raptured before the 70th week, leaving their precious children to fend for themselves during the 70th week, or be adopted by non Christian parents?"
_____ His 2nd response
In Reply to: Re: Answers from the prewrath view posted by Dan Dudley on July 12, 1997 at 20:22:06:
rgw: The fellow servants are the martyrs during the trib. Thus in God’s timing, when He ends the trib. by Christ’s arrival in the clouds, the number is completed and judgment can be poured out on the earth. The ones under the altar, I believe are not martyrs of the trib, but martyrs of church history prior to the trib. - They are viewed here in John’s vision simply as a teaching aid to communicate the idea of two groups of martyrs.
dd2: The "fellow servants and brethren" are fellow martyrs. Where do you see two groups of martyrs? Again you have had to resort to assuming or inventing two groups of something . . .to resolve a problem.
Question: Is there a group of martyrs under the altar at Rev. 6? Yes. Is there a group of people alive on the earth who will be martyred later? Yes. These are two separate groups. When will they join? They will join little by little as each person dies and joins the group under the altar. When the time is reached to bring to an end the oppression of the beast, the rapture will occur and then comes judging and avenging. Rev. 6:10-11.
dd2If that problem can be solved with one group of martyrs (as posttrib does) that is a superior solution, all other arguments being equal.
It is impossible to find only one group unless you deny the language I pointed out above.
dd2 This appears to be the underlying assumption which forces you to make the other assumptions I have identified. So I will deal with it in more detail. Prophecy is not necessarily given in a chronological order.
I agree with this - and since I gave you my outline of Revelation above, I will leave this part alone.
__________ Posted by DD on July 21, 1997 at 09:49:41:
In Reply to: martyrs/chronology posted by Ron on July 15, 1997 at 00:13:50:
: rgw: The fellow servants are the martyrs during the trib. Thus in God’s timing, when He ends the trib. by Christ’s arrival in the clouds, the number is completed and judgment can be poured out on the earth. The ones under the altar, I believe are not martyrs of the trib, but martyrs of church history prior to the trib. -
dd3 This is where I thought you were saying two groups of martyrs. One "during the trib" and "martyrs of church history prior to the trib". Certainly I agree with you that there are those alive who will be killed, and those who have already died. I (apparently mistakenly) thought you were saying these two groups remained separate. You are saying they become one group as they die. No problem here then.
But my question remains, since the antichrist is given authority to act for 42 months and AMONG THE ACTIONS HE IS PREMITTED TO DO FOR 42 MONTHS IS THE KILLING OF SAINTS (during the second half of the 70th week), he will use this authority to kill saints for ALL of the 42 months. So the martyrs in heaven (from the start of the church age until the end of the 42 months) will continue to accumulate until the end of the 70th week. And according to Rev 6:10-11, God will "refrain from judging" (the essence of the Day of the Lord) "until the number of their fellow servants and their brethren who were to be killed even as they had been, should be completed also." So the day of the Lord does not start until after the full 3 1/2 years when the antichrist is given authority to kill saints is up.
rgw: Question: Is there a group of martyrs under the altar at Rev. 6? Yes. : Is there a group of people alive on the earth who will be martyred later? Yes. : These are two separate groups. When will they join? : They will join little by little as each person dies and joins the group under the altar. When the time is reached to bring to an end the oppression of the beast, the rapture will occur and then comes judging and avenging. Rev. 6:10-11.
Do you see that the oppression of the beast will continue for 42 months, and that that oppression will include killing saints for a full 42 months since killing saints is includeds in the list of actions he is permitted to do?
_________ Posted by Ron on July 22, 1997 at 10:08:32:
In Reply to: Re: martyrs/chronology posted by DD on July 21, 1997 at 09:49:41:
dan:: But my question remains, since the antichrist is given authority to act for 42 months and AMONG THE ACTIONS HE IS PREMITTED TO DO FOR 42 MONTHS IS THE KILLING OF SAINTS (during the second half of the 70th week), he will use this authority to kill saints for ALL of the 42 months. So the martyrs in heaven (from the start of the church age until the end of the 42 months) will continue to accumulate until the end of the 70th week. And according to Rev 6:10-11, God will "refrain from judging" (the essence of the Day of the Lord) "until the number of their fellow servants and their brethren who were to be killed even as they had been, should be completed also." So the day of the Lord does not start until after the full 3 1/2 years when the time the antichrist is given authority to kill saints is up.
If we have the beast persecuting from the midpoint. And the rapture as a "prewrath" leaving an unknown period of time between the rapture and the end of the week (indeed the end of Armageddon after the 30 days) - Can he not continue persecuting "saints" even after the rapture since there will be many converts between the rapture and Armageddon?
: : Do you see that the oppression of the beast will continue for 42 months, and that that oppression will include killing saints for a full 42 months since killing saints is includeds in the list of actions he is permitted to do?
Yes - but I think that my above explanation accomplishes that. rgw.
Posted by DD on August 03, 1997 at 20:36:20:
In Reply to: Re: martyrs/chronology posted by Ron on July 22, 1997 at 10:08:32:
rw: If we have the beast persecuting from the midpoint
dd4I have the beast persecuting from the mid point, I assume you do too..
rw: And the rapture as a "prewrath" leaving an unknown period of time between the rapture and the end of the week (indeed the end of Armageddon after the 30 days) - dd4 But after your prewrath rapture, the DOTL judgment begins, but the number of their fellow servants and brethren who are to be killed (martryed) is NOT complete until 42 months is up. And God just told the martrys (Rev 6:10-11)that judgment wouldn't come until the number of martrys IS complete.
wr: Can he not continue persecuting "saints" even after the rapture since there will be many converts between the rapture and Armageddon? dd4 I do not see a significant gap between the rapture and Armageddon since I see it as posttrib.
dd4He will continue persecuting saints and killing them for 1260 days. His authority then expires and only after the 1260 days can judgment fall because that is what God told the martrys after they asked when judgment would come on those who killed them (Rev 6:10-11).
: dd3Do you see that the oppression of the beast will continue for 42 months, and that that oppression will include killing saints for a full 42 months since killing saints is included in the list of actions he is permitted to do? rw: Yes - but I think that my above explanation accomplishes that. dd4But if I understand you correctly in starting the oppression of the beast at the middle of the 70th week, you cannot interrupt his oppression before the 42 months is up by introducing the DOTL because the DOTL represents judgment. And we have already seen that judgment won't come until the 42 months is up. (Because God told the martrys that he would refrain from judging until their number was completed.) So I don't see how your above explanation accomplishes that.?? Posted by Ron on July 15, 1997 at 00:12:49: In Reply to: Re: Answers from the prewrath view posted by Dan Dudley on July 12, 1997 at 20:22:06:
dd2 So prewrath teaches that three times peals of thunder and sounds and flashes of lightning and an earthquake all occur together. It may be so but posttrib avoids having to make this less likely assumption.
What do you do with the “same” thunder and lightning at Rev. 4:5? Yes, no earthquake present - but the scene is in heaven. My point - is that the thunder and lightening is used in the same way to portend something awesome and need not refer to the exact same event.
dd2 You are saying that those who are saved after the prewrath rapture ARE subject to God's temporal wrath?
I don’t think I said that. Did I not indicate that the 144,000 are “protected” from the wrath of God which is poured out on the earth. Would not this “protection” apply to all those who trust in Christ during this period of time?
dd2(I do not accept the premise that there are two kinds of the wrath of God. It reminds me of pretribs who have two kinds of everything every eschatological event that they can't explain.)
You dont?!? Is there no difference between John 3:36 which speaks of eternal wrath through judgment in the lake of fire - - And Rev. 16:1, the 7 bowls of the wrath of God into the earth.
dd2I do not believe any believer in any age is subject to God's wrath (whether temporal or eternal).
I agree.
Posted by DD on July 21, 1997 at 10:04:29:
In Reply to: prewrath answers - more posted by Ron on July 15, 1997 at 00:12:49:
: dd2 So prewrath teaches that three times peals of thunder and sounds and flashes of lightning and an earthquake all occur together. It may be so but posttrib avoids having to make this less likely assumption.
: What do you do with the “same” thunder and lightning at Rev. 4:5? Yes, no earthquake present - but the scene is in heaven. My point - is that the thunder and lightening is used in the same way to portend something awesome and need not refer to the exact same event.
dd3: When identical language is used, if possible I will see it as the identical event. The ommission of the earthquake in Rev 4:5 makes this a different event than that which occurs after the 7th seal, trumpet and bowl.
: dd2 You are saying that those who are saved after the prewrath rapture ARE subject to God's temporal wrath?
: I don’t think I said that. Did I not indicate that the 144,000 are “protected” from the wrath of God which is poured out on the earth. Would not this “protection” apply to all those who trust in Christ during this period of time?
: dd2(I do not accept the premise that there are two kinds of the wrath of God. It reminds me of pretribs who have two kinds of everything every eschatological event that they can't explain.)
: You dont?!? : Is there no difference between John 3:36 which speaks of eternal wrath through judgment in the lake of fire - - : And Rev. 16:1, the 7 bowls of the wrath of God into the earth.
The Bible does not say one is eternal and one is temporal. They are both called the wrath of God and I'm glad prewrath agrees that no believer in any age is subject to it. So promises of deliverance from the wrath of God do not require a preceeding rapture.
: dd2I do not believe any believer in any age is subject to God's wrath (whether temporal or eternal).
: I agree.
Wrath: Posted by Ron on July 23, 1997 at 11:38:39:
In Reply to: Re: prewrath answers - more posted by DD on July 21, 1997 at 10:04:29:
: : dd2(I do not accept the premise that there are two kinds of the wrath of God. It reminds me of pretribs who have two kinds of everything every eschatological event that they can't explain.) : :rgw: You dont?!? : : Is there no difference between John 3:36 which speaks of eternal wrath through judgment in the lake of fire - - : : And Rev. 16:1, the 7 bowls of the wrath of God into the earth.
: The Bible does not say one is eternal and one is temporal. They are both called the wrath of God and I'm glad prewrath agrees that no believer in any age is subject to it. So promises of deliverance from the wrath of God do not require a preceeding rapture.
Ok - how about at Luke 21:23, "wrath to this people" which is clearly refering to the judgment on Israel in 70 AD. It is temporal judgment and in contrast with eternal judgment (wrath) such as is described at Rev. 14:10-11.rgw
Posted by DD on August 03, 1997 at 21:03:40:
In Reply to: wrath posted by Ron on July 23, 1997 at 11:38:39:
: : : : dd2(I do not accept the premise that there are two kinds of the wrath of God. It reminds me of pretribs who have two kinds of every eschatological event that they can't explain.)
: : :rgw: You dont?!? : : : Is there no difference between John 3:36 which speaks of eternal wrath through judgment in the lake of fire - - : : : And Rev. 16:1, the 7 bowls of the wrath of God into the earth.
: : The Bible does not say one is eternal and one is temporal. They are both called the wrath of God and I'm glad prewrath agrees that no believer in any age is subject to it. So promises of deliverance from the wrath of God do not require a preceeding rapture.
: Ok - how about at Luke 21:23, "wrath to this people" which is clearly refering to the judgment on Israel in 70 AD. : It is temporal judgment and is in contrast with eternal judgment (wrath) such as is described at Rev. 14:10-11.rgw
dd4 Ps 7:11 God judgeth the righteous, and God is angry with the wicked every day." I believe God presently is holding back His wrath against sinners, but in the past has vented His wrath on unbelievers, or unbelieving Israel. Possibly this occured in 70 A.D. as you suggested above. In Rev 14:10 "The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out WITHOUT MIXTURE into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb"
dd4This verse implies that at other times His wrath has been poured out WITH mixture (in other words diluted or not full strengh). In either case it is His wrath not described as being temporal or eternal. If you want to distinguish two kinds of God's wrath I would agree that their is unmixed wrath as in Rev 14 and mixed wrath in other cases where His wrath is poured out. But in my mind they are both one kind of wrath, just diluted or undiluted. The eternal wrath you are refering to will be undiluted and the wrath poured out on Israel in history was diluted.
dd4My point in this part of our discussion has already been made since you agree that the rapture is not needed to exempt Christians from the wrath of God since we agree that no believer at any time is subject to God's wrath.
------------------------------------------------------------------------ Posted by Ron on July 15, 1997 at 00:11:41:
In Reply to: Re: Answers from the prewrath view posted by Dan Dudley on July 12, 1997 at 20:22:06:
SUMMARY:
1. Evangelism: v. 1-7
2. Rejection of Babylonian religion: v. 8
3. Rejection of beast worship: v.9-12
4. Martyrdom for faithfulness: v. 13
5. Reaping of the earth through the bowl judgments: v. 15-16
6. Gathering of the armies to Armageddon: v. 17-20
DD:3. Why at the 6th bowl of wrath does God say, "I am coming like a thief"? Rev 16.15 (Please don't say Rev. 16:15 is a parenthesis in the middle of the events of the 6th bowl that jumps back to the church before the 7th seal rapture.
rgw:Why not. It works for me. BUT - not so much as “jumps back to the church” as it is an exhortation addressed to those who are reading the book - in view of the seriousness of the events that will be taking place.
dd2 This is another prewrath assumption that is not required under posttrib. It does not fit the prewrath chronology so it is a parenthesis. That explaination seems forced, since the warning that He is coming like a thief is in the middle of the description of the 6th bowl, preceded by the preparations for the kings of the east etc. and followed by these kings gathering together at HarMagedon. If an aside to the reader is intended it would seem the writer would finish the description of the events of the 6th bowl, and then have the aside.
I concede that it seems “forced” but I am forced to do it since I cannot see a chronological scenario other than what I listed above. Were I able to equate the time frame for the seals, trumpets and bowls - ok. but I cannot.
Posted by DD on July 21, 1997 at 22:42:06:
In Reply to: Rev. 14 - reapings #4 posted by Ron on July 15, 1997 at 00:11:41:
rgw: I concede that it seems “forced” but I am forced to do it since I cannot see a chronological scenario other than what I listed above. Were I able to equate the time frame for the seals, trumpets and bowls - ok. but I cannot.
I have suggested a scenario in my time line that is able to equate the time frame for the seals, trumpets and bowls that is not forced at all and does not require the extra assumptions I have identified throughout our discussions.
Thankyou for your thoughtful answers to the questions I have raised. I hope you can see that the posttrib view requires less assumptions although it does not have the seals, trumpets and bowls following one another in chronological order (apparently the primary assumption of prewrath) but overlapping in time with all culminating in the 7th of the series at the second coming.
Posted by Ron on July 15, 1997 at 00:11:10:
In Reply to: Re: Answers from the prewrath view posted by Dan Dudley on July 12, 1997 at 20:22:06:
Rev. 14:8 - proclamation of the fall of the great “Babylonian” harlot. Again, this is what happens in John’s vision - not what is going to be proclaimed on the earth when it does happen. The proclamation is made in anticipation of Divine judgment which takes place during the final 30 days of God’s wrath. The destruction of Babylon the harlot is accomplished by the beast and his minions (Rev. 17:16-18) and happens in connection with the 7th bowl judgment during the 30 day period that follows the 1260 days of the last half of the week.
Rev. 14:9-12 - Again, this is a proclamation made in heaven for John’s hearing. It is not a warning proclaimed on the earth. But the fact that it is here recorded for mankind serves as a warning to them. The focus here is on their final disposition in the lake of fire.
Rev. 14:13 refers to those who are martyred between the rapture and the physical descent of Jesus to set up His kingdom. The same ones in view at Rev. 20:4.
V. 14-20 the earth is reaped in judgment. First by Jesus “sitting on the cloud” and pouring out the final wrath of God via the 7 bowls.
Second, by an angel who gathers the armies of the earth to the Valley of Megiddo for their final defeat by Christ’s “physical” descent to Armageddon.
Posted by Ron on July 15, 1997 at 00:11:10:
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