Materially big corporations which are responsible for most of the damages to our environment only do what they do because of our thirst or weakness (material attachment) for what they produce. And spiritually, false dogmas in the name of Chrisitianity, Islam, etc. are even doing worst as they promote the greatest evil of all by promoting and condoning the complete destruction of intellectual reasoning. If we change our way of thinking and living they too will have to change. With all said and done, it is obvious that if these rich and famous from the pulpits who are leading the way to save our world cannot change their way of life and thinking as an example for others to follow, no one else is going to change.

Illegal drugs pose an imminent danger to lives especially in wealthy countries but instead of educating the people, they spent billions in unsuccessful covert operation to destroy the source. Guns are even a greater danger, but who is going after the manufacturers? On the other hand, false religions seem to welcome the misery they create, it does not only allow them to show how powerful their God is at healing and granting redemption from sins but it promotes their primary motive to prolong the miseries to justify their clandestine effort of collecting huge sums of money. As the cause (fale dogmas) of poverty and destitution continue to ravish the planet on a large scale, the merciful act of receiving a great deal and giving a little, in the name of Christianity, Islam, etc., will continue its euphoric flow. So, greed is in for the long haul, it has become a way of life even for those who are wilfully pretending to do something about it.

I can boldly proclaim that I have done my part in setting the example needed to give extended life to all present and future inhabitants of this planet. It is so minor that it hasn't created that of an effect where the masses will ever noticed, which I knew from the start it wouldn't do. But the idea of a great reward for my soul is enough a motivation for me to continue this practice until the end. In truth, we should strive, however few we are, to be motivated by our own spiritual quest of seeking the truth and rejecting what is false, even though we will lose the fight for global sanctity, we can hold on to the fact that redemption of the soul was never in vain.

I can assure you that the God I worship, does not command any to go and kill those who don't agree with you.
Vj ~ Your God who provided with no source knowledge, is still not the same God who sent instructions (Vedas) to mankind.

I would say that the whole of the Christian world, the Hindu's, and Buddhists would agree with this to, they also worship the same God as us.
Vj ~ It seems to me you are the only hypocrite among us all. All those (Aryans, Christians, Muslims, Jews, Hindus, Sikhs, Zoroastrian, etc.) who claim to worship God have scriptures (Vedas, Bible, Quran, Torah, Puranas, Guru Grantha, Zend Avesta, etc. respectively) to back up their religion. You also claim worship of God but without a scripture to back it up.

Now it is not true VJ that I am not accepting your sharing, to say it is I would have to say is quite wrong of you.
Vj ~ If you did, how come after 548 posts you're still the same confused nut-case you are as when you first started? You are still in the defence mode of all things false.

And yes VJ I am as wise as you because I know as you do
Vj ~ Let me fill you in on the claim of being wise. First, before propagating truth, a definition is put to it, then homage is paid to those who contributed to the cause and then it is all back up by the source knowledge (Vedas).
Now, if you have'nt done any of these, be honest for once and tell us what makes you wise.

beliefs are a thing of the past.
Vj ~ More hypocrisy which you are so good at. All the religions of the world, except one, are based on a belief system which is not in harmony with reasoning, science and neither is it in conformity with natural laws. Ready belief is the norm of our civilization to day. The credulous, the masses, apply no reasoning or logic at all to what they believe in, so how is it a thing of the past for you or any of them?

A word of wisdom for you VJ. Let go of the ego and you will be a more humble teacher.
Vj ~ You earlier claimed to be as wise as I am, so why would you need a teacher? The wise will always have an "ego" to a fool, not because the fool wants to be enlightened, but because the fool thinks he/she is already enlightened.
Here are a few who are impartial and truly know what humility is.

God bless all my family Wherever they may be,
Vj ~ God has already sent His blessings (Vedas) for all, so if you are not going to make the effort to seek it out and practice as an example to your family, instead of asking Him to to do it for you, you and family will forever be lost.

All scriptures lead to belief systems, which are different from faith. You say you know, hence you will be well acquainted with faith then I take it.
Vj ~ There is no faith without scripture (belief system), so belief is faith.

As long as you are following a belief system, doesn't matter what kind, you are not free.
Vj ~ You are right, but when reasoning is applied to scripture then it becomes a faith in harmony with reasoning and when it is guided by the correct knowledge, it leads to wisdom and wisdom to know is freedom.

I see now that I have thought you to be really wise, my mistake.
Vj ~ No it is not a mistake, for it is quite impossible for fool to know who is wise or foolish.

You dont have all the answers VJ so dont pretend that you do.
Vj ~ How would you know I don't have all the answers when you don't have all the questions? Even if I have all the answers, how would you know, since it is only one with all the answers can rationally tell if I have all, some or no answers.

The Vedas are NOT the one true religion, from what I have read thus far much of it resonates with me as Truth,
Vj ~ You are not only a dunce but very prejudicial, all that you have read so far, you said "reasonates with me as Truth" since there is nothing false yet how can you conclude the Vedas have nothing to do with the one true religion.

God needs no Veda's, no Bible, no scripture whatever, it is only mankind that needs scriptures and follow scriptures because they haven't realised that God is within them.
Vj ~ Amazing! So are we to understand you are not a specy of mankind who has found God without scripture?

You have in the past admitted that you have abused me. What kind of person are you that can happily do that.
Vj ~ The kind that disseminate the truth and only the truth. Did you not read this on my site or did you think I put it for purpose of decoration?

"It is laid down that man should so conduct himself that he might not give pain to and entertain inimical thoughts towards any living being. But in matters which are opposed to the teachings of the one true religion giving of pain becomes a duty - let him say what is good for another even though it may offend.” Swami Dayanand

I forgive you for that anyway.
Vj ~ If you do, that means you prefer to remain ignorant of the one true God of the universe.

If you could soften your approach, which shouldn't be difficult I would think, and let go of the dogmatic way you go about things, you would possibly be able to teach those who come to you,
Vj ~ You are no doubt soft in your approach and without any difficulty, but who have you convinced so far that knowing God is possible without scripture?

if not you will drive them away, and you and they will have gained nothing.
Vj ~ You haven't driven off anyone, and yet they haven't gained anything from you. The wise always gain even if a fool doesn't, for only the wise can draw nectar (wisdom) from poison (ignorance).

What a waste. And I really thought you could teach me
Vj ~ Seems to me you have wasted a whole thought, which only a fool can readily do.
The fact is, the truth hurts so when a fool comes to learn the fool will be hurt by it, but if the fool is willing to put up with it, the fool is no more a fool, but a student humble, able and ready to learn.
Besides, how can I teach you (with an ego) when you have already claimed to be as wise as I am?

BTW what is the meaning of you putting all these posts onto your site. Is this the way that you can uphold your ego, for I don't see any other use or purpose for doing so. I want a expanation from you on this.
Vj ~ If you consider yourself as wise as you said you are, why would it matter what I do with these posts. Remember, I am the 'bad' guy here, so whatever those who opposed me said has to be good or true, so shouldn't you and the others be happy instead that I am taking your good tidings and spreading it beyond this forum.

The odd post or two I wouldn't mind, but the whole of this thread? Excuse me for not understanding why this would be necessary.
Vj ~ The thread is "whole" because you and your friends made it so. I 'the offensive' only posted a few of my own but because some feel themselves 'wise' thought it best to straigthen me out. Now it turns out, that they are all fakes, unhappy, insulted and whatever they believe in was of no help to them during this dialogue.

Once again he has judged you to be “ignorant, a hypocrite, a confused nut-case and a fool,” when if truth be told he is simply describing what he sees when he looks in the mirror.
Vj ~ True, I have passed judgement, but it is the truth and you will never know it, because you are in the same predicament or even worst as she is.

Surely this should remind you - again - of the utter futility of trying to engage him in any meaningful dialogue.
Vj ~ So, does "meaningful" mean it must go your way? There is no compromise when it comes to the truth, so if you are hurt by it, I suggest you do some serious reflection on what your present belief is.

I know you to be a caring and compassionate individual,
Vj ~ What good is that when what you both believe in leads to pain and misery? It is only the wise who are caring and compassionate since they have already saved themselves, they are the only ones who know how to save others ..

You cannot force those who are not willing to understand to become willing.
Vj ~ True, it is not wise to force anyone to remain as ignorant as you are.

All you can do is forgive his abuse, and pray for God to open his eyes before it’s too late.
Vj ~ It seems your prayers are not even beneficial to you, so, how can you pray for me, when you are the one who is easily offended, insulted and very unhappy?

Vj finds himself all alone in a world of fools where he is the only sane, enlightened – and let’s not forget humble, LOL – crusader for truth. Such is life on planet Vj. My advice is that you save your breath and leave Vj to his own devices.
Vj ~ It is very true, the company of the wise are very few. It is very lonely up here, but solitude is God's gift where the wise find contentment.

Oh, btw, Vj has not put ALL our posts onto his site (that would preserve the context) but instead has carefully selected posts which he deemed useful to his purposes.
Vj ~ And my purpose is to expose what is false and propagate what is true. I could not have put "all our posts" for too much rubbish, a fool's delight, could overcome the sweet fragance of truth which is so rear.

He took certain liberties to make sure he got in the last word, and when he realized he did not win the exchange, he either gutted large portions of the text or censored a reply completely. I guess this is how he maintains his "he who must be obeyed" status on his own site. Quite expected really.
Vj ~ My first words are just as good as my last words, so it wouldn't matter. I have posted all that I have responded to, it is no different from all the dialogues I have been engaged in. But feel free to continue indulging, you will find youself in the company of many who were disappointed as you are.

Reply to Jacsimo - 04,11 07
Methinks it's time you gave up the teaching and tried being a snake charmer.
Vj ~ You are so right, ignorance is such a serious disease that it is easier to charm a snake without ears than to teach a fool with hearing.

I was referring to myself and not you who still has a belief system.
Vj ~ I understand one who can define truth no longer has a "belief system" (doubts), is that you or me?

Reply to Jacsimo - 04 12 07 - When only the wise can draw nectar from poison, how is it time wasted?
Namaste VJ, sorry I did say I had written my last post to you and then I came across this below.
Vj ~ Namaste Pam, it shows a fool has no interest in learning since I posted the link to yoga so long ago and only now you came across it.

Now VJ when you do have something of benefit to teach, why on earth have you wasted your spiritual energy, ranting and raving about me and my supposed ignorance on this board.
Vj ~ The purpose of this dialogue is for the rear few who are desirous of knowing the truth. You do not know it, but your ignorance, through these heated exchanges can lead to their enlightenment You see the wise knows when one has really come to learn and when such a student arrives both the teacher and the student finds harmony. There is no where along this dialogue such a student was apparent.

I also note that I am not the only one who has had this ruse of your's meted out. Could it possibly be because you dont really know much at all, but possibly would like to know more but dont have the will or capability to do so.
Vj ~ If only now you found that out, it is your own fault, for my very first post has a link to my site. It would have been sensible to study it, just to know me before engaging me in a dialogue that has turned out be your regret.

Poor you. You had the opportunity and quite frankly you blew it.
Vj ~ In my faith, the dissemination of truth is not obligatory, so it is "poor you" who have the opportunity and soon to blow it.

It seems also from viewing your board that your dear departed swami had a bust up with the theosophical society, even having their chairman to diassociate themselves from you swami and to sadly state that they had come to the conclusion that the swami had litteraly 'gone mad', possibly from doing to much meditation.
Vj ~ Yes, it reminds me of your world where fools deem wise men to be mad. Imagine a society that was immersed in ignorance for centuries and suddenly a man of wisdom appears, how can fools instantly appreciate him for what he is? On the other hand, the swami could have been popular had he done some trickery, something as stupid as trying to fake the healing of the sick or raising the dead.

This of course is a risk of doing meditation without the correct knowledge. (Does that phrase strike a chord with you, by any chance)?
Vj ~ Yes, your ignorance does strike a chord with me, you and those atheists (Theosophical Society) are at the risk of being mad since you don't know where and what is the correct knowledge.

You are sadly a foolish man and not at all wise, if you had wisdom at all you would have been genuinely teaching and what you would be teaching is what I have copied below.
Vj ~ A wise man knows God has no cure for a fool, so why would he try? You cannot make a horse drink if the horse is not thirsty, likewise if one has no thirst for the truth it is useless to teach it. A good start would be an impartial and open mind, but such an individual is yet to appear here.

Not all may understand this, but I certainly do.
Vj ~ What you have to first understand is that a fool can be hurt in the process of seeking the truth.

Your chance to make a difference has been and gone, so sad, I feel ever so sorry for you that you have declared yourself so wise and proved to all what a fool you really are.
Vj ~ Even if I have declared myself wise, by what wisdom can a fool doubt me? I have come into this world to save my own soul and I am well on my way in doing that, quite the opposite of what a fool would do by trying to save others before him/herself.

When you behave like that you do not bestow any credit or credibilty on what you write.
Vj ~ The wise are above vanity (praise) and insults, what they do is their inner nature to do so. They know the masses are ignorant and think them to be mad, so what kind of credibility will that be coming from the ignorant?

Now, my advice to you VJ is go and study some of the writings on your own site and stop playing at being wise, become wise and then you wont need to chase and harrass other's who are on their own road to learning about Spirit, it is not your place or anyone's place to harrass anyone.
Vj ~ It is the place of the wise to always expose what is false and propagate the truth and if the ignorant is harrassed by it, it is for their own good.

You have to transcend all these urges to put other's down, all these urges from the ego to be the 'victor' in all you say and do.
Vj ~ It seems to me you and others are already down and I am only making you aware of it. How about "others" try to conquer their weaknesses of being put down to be the victor, instead. Let's face it, if you can easily be put down does it not mean you are weak and such weaknesses is due to the faith you follow?

Now although this from your own site is rather long, it is nonetheless the fundemental principles for seeking Truth.
Vj ~ Well since I can't be put down and you and others easily can, who then do you think needs to study it? The truth is, when one finds truth one can never be put down for it is truth that puts a fool down.

Remember when one finds Truth, one would have transcended any need to defend one's position.
So how come you are defending?

I would think that as I am still here on page 29 of this thread, that I have not 'been put down' one jot. If you think I have you are quite wrong.
Vj ~ Makes no difference to me if you're down or you come in defense of those that are down. It is virtually the same thing. It is the reason you are leaving like every one else who have been put down.

As I have already said and I must say I am getting bored with all this now,
Vj ~ It shows how difficult or how impossible it is to cure a fool.

go and learn first and after you have, then you may find you have a inclination to teach, but not until then.
Vj ~ The inclination to teach is not the problem for me, but the inclination to learn definitely is for you.

Namaste VJ I shall pray for your recovery of this madness that has overtaken you.
Vj ~ If you think prayers your way work why not use to win a lottery, that way you can feed milliions in poverty, a greater blessing I would say, than saving one 'mad' soul.

I bow down to the God in you as you recognise the God in me.
Vj ~ You are right to bow down to the God in me for it is the only true God of this Universe. The god in you reflects your ignorance and therefore is false.

Namaste and good bye
Vj ~ Take care and thank you for the wonderful time spent on these discussions. Hopefully, it will bear fruit for those who thirst.
Alas! I can now go back to my cherished and relished moments of solitude.

Posted by Vj - 04 15 07
In a few weeks this forum will come to a close and before it does I want to take this opportunity to thank Vision TV, those who have viewed and more so, those who have braved the rough 'waters' to participate in these discussions.

I want you know that I bear no malice towards anyone or have I brought any fictitious or false charges against anyone. Even though many were offended I deemed it to be for their own good.

"Let him say what is good for another even though it may offend" was my motto through out and never have I swayed from it.

For those who are curious or desirous of continuing their viewing or participation.
Namaste,

Reply to Omega - 04 16 07 - Words without action leads to pain and misery.
Vj, when one speaks from the soul (heart) it is them who will be held accountable.
Vj ~ Hi Richard! Yes we will all be held accountable, a few will be rewarded for practicing and preaching the truth while many will be punished because of their worship of false god (dogmas), compulsion being so. It is only by honest and impartial inquires of all religions you can prevent the punishment to come.

We mortal souls pray for words of wisdom.
Vj ~ There can be no wisdom through prayers without action. For instance if you pray for good health, effort must be made to acquire the right knowledge to guide you - what and when to eat, excercise, work, rest, sleep, answering nature's call and shower. Many may have their doubts, but my contentment (health and wisdom) is a prime example of such knowledge and practice. I must be right, for Westerners are now turning in droves to seek remedy through yoga and meditation.

For it is far greater to offer words of compassion, forgiveness and above all love.
Vj ~ Words are useless without action and every step of this discourse, I have given both - the correct knowledge and how to put it to practice. It is the kindest act of compassion and love to save the human soul. There is no such thing as forgiveness of sins for what a man sows that will he reap, no more and no less. It is called justice for God's law (of karma) is just.
Take care my friend.

Reply to Omega - 04 18 07
Vj! Respectfully I say if you wish to see the beauty of the entire forest, you'll have to remove your nose from being up against the old oak tree.
Vj ~ Richard! Respectfully I am saying that you are the one with your "nose" stuck up against the "old oak tree" (the Bible) explore and investigate with reason, impartiality and integrity all the other scriptures as I have done if you wish to see the beauty of the entire (whole) truth of life and the universe. It must be very frustrating for you to make available such a wonderful quote and haven't a clue of what it meant.

You appear to find pleasure in finding fault wirh just about anyone who come with open arms to greeting you with kindness.
Vj ~ Your kind of "open arms" and "kindness" lead to pain and misery as you have been subjected to not too long ago and the worst is yet to come, while mine leads to the state of perpetual happiness, as I am enjoying now and more to come in my next life, by exposing your "faults" or what is false. In any case, it shows the weakness of your faith, for, if you have already been guaranteed heaven, why should you be unhappy of what I say or do?

Posted by Vj - 04-21-07 - I agree
Food for Life/VisionTV - Sunday April 15, 2007
"You just can't get intelligent people to convert, to believe in the Gospel." Fr. Bob Bedard - referring to an acquaintance up for a Rhode's scholarship. Does it not mean that it takes one ignorant to believe in the Bible?

Reply to My2cents - 04 23 07
Hi Vj, After allegedly quoting a Fr. Bedard, you ask, “Does it not mean that it takes one ignorant to believe in the Bible?” You ARE kidding, right? It obviously doesn’t take much to persuade your biased mind of what it is predisposed to believe. LOL.
Vj ~ How could I be kidding when I am so adamant in contradicting the Bible? I found nothing truthful in it, but absurdities, lies, deceits and immoralities of the worst kinds.

But since you asked... the short answer is “No.” Some of the world’s greatest minds have embraced Christianity. Simon Greenleaf, one of the principle founders of Harvard University, and author of the two-volume “A Treatise on the Law of Evidence” is but one example.

He wrote, “Christianity does not profess to convince the perverse and headstrong, to bring irresistible evidence to the daring and profane, to vanquish the proud scorner, and afford evidences from which the careless and perverse cannot possibly escape. This might go to destroy man's responsibility. All that Christianity professes, is to propose such evidences as may satisfy the meek, the tractable, the candid, the serious inquirer."

Harvard graduate and retired UC Berkeley Law Professor Phillip E. Johnston, considered the father of the Intelligent Design movement, is another more recent example.
Vj ~ You have those kind of 'intelligent' minds in Hinduism, Islam, Judaism, Zorastrianism, Buddhism, etc. and even atheists who don't subscribe to Christianity at all, but we are dealing here with the most abstruse science of God which they are obviously all ignorant of.

The list could be greatly extended, including the founders of many scientific disciplines as I mentioned before, but an extended list will not satisfy a closed mind.
Vj ~ How could I have a "closed mind" when I know so much more of the Bible than you of the Vedic religion? Until now you can't even point out one fault in the Vedic religion. A closed mind is one that comes in defence of one's religion and could care two hoots about honest inquiry into the others.

Perhaps you should acquaint yourself with this quote from Mark Twain: “WHAT GETS US INTO TROUBLE IS NOT WHAT WE DON’T KNOW. IT’S WHAT WE KNOW FOR SURE THAT AIN’T SO.”
Vj ~ I am already acquainted with it and this is what he meant by it -

"It ain't the parts of the Bible that I can't understand that bother me, it is the parts that I do understand." Mark Twain
and here is another
"India is the cradle of the human race, the birthplace; human speech, the mother of history, grandmother of legend, and great grand mother of tradition. Our most valuable and most instructive materials in the history of man are treasured up in India only." Mark Twain

I have had to be blunt with you at times, but always had your best interests at heart. I'm sure you understand.
Vj ~ I understand my interests to be well secured by the truth, but it is certainly your interests surrounded by eroneous views that must be questioned. I have been very blunt also but apparently you couldn't put up with it for too long.

Take care, and farewell.
You too my friend.

Reply to Omega - 04 24 07 - Mark Twain did!
vj it appears that you never read the bible.
Vj ~ I quoted Mark Twain because I feel the same way after reading it. Richard, reading any scripture in the absense of good reasoning brings out the wrong message. It is not what I have read or didn't that should be of importance to you but what you have failed to read yourself. It seems to me that you have no interest at all in finding out whether your Bible is the truth or not.

I noticed you told my2cents that "the Bible? I found nothing truthful in it." Since the Bible agrees with the Vedas (which you hold to be true) that there is only One Almighty God who is eternal, omnipresent, omniscient, incorporeal, immutable and just, your position is inconsistent.
Vj ~ Saying it is one thing but understanding it is another. It is true "there is only One Almighty God" and His one and only revelation is the Vedas. Christians claim Him to be eternal but cannot account for his whereabouts or what He was doing before this creation; they claim Him to be omnipresent but He showed up on Mount Sinai and took a form later which localized Him to one place; they claimed Him to be omniscient, but he had to wait after he created the earth to proclaim it good and if that wasn't bad enough He was allowed to be tempted by the devil; they claimed him to be incorporeal but he became flesh (Jesus) and suffer pain; they claimed Him (or His laws) to be immutable but the mode of worship keep changing (eye for an eye to turning the right cheek); they claimed him to be just, but he deprived millions before Moses of the "Commandments". All these breaches to His nature, attributes and Characteristics can only be the work of ignorant men who authored the Bible, and knew nothing of the One true God of the Universe.

The quote from Mark Twain, "What gets us into trouble is not what we don't know. It's what we know for sure that ain't so," was no doubt given to suggest the possibility that what you "know for sure" (ie. the alleged validity of the Vedas) may in reality fall into the category of "ain't so."
Vj ~ Well it seems Chritians are the one in trouble, for how would they know the Bible to be so, when they know nothing of the Vedas. The knowledge of Vedas is validated by a definition, universal in nature, it is in harmony with reasoning, science and in conformity with natural laws. Unless you ingrain good reasoning habits and educate yourself to know and understand the functions of natural laws what you know (bible) as so, really "ain't so".

You seemed to have missed his point, replying with another quote, "It ain't the parts of the Bible that I can't understand that bother me, it is the parts that I do understand." As I understand it, Mr Twain is merely referring to the fact that the Bible plainly tells him that God will one day hold him accountable for his actions, and it is this part that he understood which bothered him.The concept of accountability bothers most people.
Vj ~ You have been missing all my points so far, so how would you know when I missed one? All religions speak of accountability, but when a religion condems an innocent soul to eternal hell-fire it can be really bothersome, especially when its god's fault the soul was deprived of divine instructions. If the Bible is path to salvation think of how many were deprived of it in its entirety. It is not so with the Vedas, which were revealed in their entirety from the very beginning of creation for all, depriving none.

As for the matter of "you can't even point out one fault in the Vedic religion," I thought that it was pointed out quite clearly that the Vedas made at least one false statement when its teaching about sentient beings living on the surface of the sun was raised. That you did not accept the erroneous nature of the Vedas' statement does not mean it was not pointed out.
Vj ~ The whole Bible is false and that you can't see, how can you begin to point out faults in the Vedas. It is erroneous if the Bible by its teachings can proclaim it to be so, but it (bible) is unscientific to begin with that it still speaks of the earth being flat and no other world, so what would it know of the sun.

My2cents replied to your question, "Does it not mean that it takes one ignorant to believe in the Bible?" by showing that many intelligent, rational and logical thinkers through the years have had no problem believing in the Bible. You now say that you meant that it takes someone "spiritually ignorant" to believe the Bible. That is quite a different meaning. To suggest that only those who believe the Vedas are spiritual enlightened is simply begging the question, and betrays an obvious bias.
Vj ~ How would you know who is a rational and logical thinker, if you are not one yourself? If they do not belong to the Vedic religion, they are certainly atheists, but they can never be believers of any false dogma. How anyone of Vedic thoughs or the Vedas be considered bias, when we were there from the very beginning for all depriving none. We gave the world ethics and morals and all sciences known to man and if any one in any age or region were deprived of it, it is one's own fault and not God.

All persons holding any meaningful spiritual conviction believe that what they have come to believe is "THE" truth, and that others do not believe the same way because they are either "unwilling" or spiritually "in the dark." Proclaiming yourself to be in the minority who defend and uphold genuine spiritual light does not make the claim true - it just makes you like everyone else.
Vj ~ Wrong again my friend! It is a fact the company of the learned are few; it is also a fact the truth hurts; truth holds a definition of which I was capable of providing. These are three of the many reasons why my claim is true and why I am definitely not like everyone else.

As a parting thought, if your Vedas and the theory of reincarnation are true, I will simply be recycled and have yet other chances to "get it right." A nuisance, yes, but that's about it.
Vj ~ Very true, but who desires pain and suffering but the ignorant. It is this knowledge that leads to human birth, without it you will be some other creature for a very long long time. So at some birth in the future you will have to seek it for salvation anyways so why not now?

IF however, Christianity IS God's truth to mankind, and you have snubbed God's mercy and offer of forgiveness in Jesus Christ, on judgment day you will find yourself being punished for all your sins - just not quite as you expected to. You will finally be forced to admit your error, but it will be too late for you to change your fate. And railing against God for all eternity is about as futile as it gets. I hope against hope that you will take my warning to heart.
Vj ~ That "IF" is yours my friend and not mine. I am totally convinced, without any doubt, that the correct knowledge guided by reason, science and inconformity with natural laws that my faith is true and yours totally false. I have already made the changes necessary and I had to first become an atheist to do it.

Like the others, I too wish you well, and in spite of our incompatible spiritual positions, I consider us not enemies, but fellow travelers in life's journey. Peace, Love, Joy.
Vj ~ Take care my friend even though you are not aware your life's journey is away from Peace, Love, Joy (God).

Reply to jacsimo - 04 27 07
As for the matter of "you can't even point out one fault in the Vedic religion," I thought that it was pointed out quite clearly that the Vedas made at least one false statement when its teaching about sentient beings living on the surface of the sun was raised. That you did not accept the erroneous nature of the Vedas' statement does not mean it was not pointed out.
Vj ~ It was also pointed out by me that it was not false for those who are immersed in ignorance (the worship of false gods) can never be an authority in finding fault in the Vedic religion. All systems (the sun, the moon, the stars and planets) of the universe are abodes for nothing is useless that God has created. Seeds only germinate when the conditions (soil, temperature, water, etc.) are right and the same applies to the abodes. If the condition is not ready for habitation now, it will be at sometime. The Vedas are the source of astronomy and not the Bible so how can any Christian contradict it?

VJ, where in the Bible does it allude to the earth being flat?
Vj ~ Shouldn't you be asking the Christians since they were the ones persecuting those (Greek philosophers) for saying it was round? How could have Jesus, from a mountain, been shown all the kingdoms of the world if it weren't flat?

Now I can see how easily your answers have come about. Basically you have given non answers by just turning around a particular point of focus and then saying to the respondent 'how can they know if they dont do whatever, blah blah blah.
Vj ~ I still maintain that one must use the intellect, and not the heart, to reason for without proper reasoning no one can come to know the truth.

You have done this in practically every post I think.
Vj ~ Of course, it is critical to constructive dialogue to apply reasoning to whatever the belief is. Guided by the correct knowledge, it is the only way we can ascertain truth from untruth.

Now as scripture was handed down through the ages by word of mouth, why then when you say the Vedas were the first scriptures, and I do not dispute this, there is I think no way of dating the Vedas, why did those whose duty it was to divulge the nature of God's word to the world, not do so.
Vj ~ They did, but if the people are all idiots like you how would it spread? Here I am, as Swami Dayanand did 130 years ago, and as Swami Sankarcharya 2300 years ago, continuing what the Rishis of yore were doing for thousands of years and yet it is being rejected and reviled. The intellects of masses are so degraded (perverted) in this age of Kaliyug that the last two Rishis were assassinated. It is not obligatory to disseminate, and you would think we would give up and go away, but it shows duty towards the human race was, is and will always be a priority and that messengers of the Vedas never gave up on their duty to do so.

By not doing so, they have done what you actually blame Christianity for doing and that is by many many millions of people not having access to the Vedic material.
Vj ~ I blame Christians for being dwelling in the ignorance you feed on. You have "the Vedic material" now, and instead of "accessing" it, you are calling those who are propagating it "mad", so whose fault it is? Jesus declared he is only way to heaven somewhere in the Middle-East 2000 years ago, how are the Aztecs (Mayan/Incas) supposed to know this 'god' changed the rules? Is it not an injustice that only 1500 years ago they came to know of it, depriving so many before of heaven?

Remember the printing press of Thomas Caxton only appeared in the 11th or 12th century or thereabouts. So I really think it is a case with you of the kettle calling the pot black.
Vj ~ The only "kettle" that is "black" (ignorance) is your intellect. Western History (German Magazine) says the World's first university was established in Takshila in 700BC. More than 10,500 students from all over the world studied more than 60 subjects. The University of Nalanda built in the 4th century BC was one of the greatest achievements of ancient India in the field of education.

Now I think this is my last post to you but you know me well enough by now. Either way, may your life be full of love and peace.
Vj ~ How could I ever fail to know you when there is no cure for a fool? Think about it, a fool is a fool because the fool doesn't want to know any better, so how can a fool ever grasp this message. It is only the wise who truly experience peace and can shower true love. Take care Pam and all the best.

Reply to OMEGA - 04 28 07 - The worst sin is die an idiot
When God created the universe God placed firmament encircling the earth, one consistng of water vapor (clouds) the othe filling up the seas inland lakes and (oceans).
Vj ~ If that is from the Bible, proving the earth to be round, then you would have much trouble explaining why those Greek philosophers were being persecuted for speaking the truth. There can be no creation without a material cause and your Bible doesn't have it.

It is our vantage point and the horizon which gives the illusion that the earth is not round but rather flat,
Vj ~ Very true, which then necessitates honest inquiry guided by the teachings of wise men to ascertain the truth. But since billions were misled to believe the earth was flat for thousands of years, it shows how ignorant the authors of the Bible were and what else it teaches cannot be anything near the truth.

Now I can see how easily your answers have come about. Basically you have given non answers by just turning around a particular point of focus and then saying to the respondent 'how can they know if they dont do whatever, blah blah blah.
Vj ~ It will always be "blah, blah, blah" for the idiot who stubbornly insist on using the heart instead of the intellect.

No VJ, I shouldn't be asking the questions, I am asking you as you made the remark that this is stated in the Bible, so where is it, what text is it, what verse is it? This is for you to answer and no one else.
Vj ~ It shows that I am more of a friend to Christians than you are. You pretend to be their friend not knowing what their bible contains. I gave a hint but not even one of your Christian friends have stepped up the plate to help you out.

So let's see if you can give a straight answer. btw I dont suppose you have ever considered being a politician, because they dont give straight answers either and you know what, they are the proverbial pain in the neck
Fools, who comprise of the masses, are deserving what they get - it is called democracy.[

You should have as obviously the Veda's and your swami must have made everything clear as mud to you and seems accordling to you there is nothing that you dont know.
Vj ~ Even if it is not so, how would a fool know?

Now you understand your criticism is not constructive and in the best interests of all, far from it.
Vj ~ How would a fool know what the wise understand?

You are in fact, heavily coming from the ego or mortal self, you have much work on yourself still to do, much ignorance to overcome with true knowledge, for the knowlege you have thus far displayed is of the 'knock down and bash them over the head variety', not a good way to go at all.
Vj ~ The rest of world used the "knock down and bash them over the head variety" to rid the world of Nazi facism, and to day not only the Jews but even Germans themselves are proud of they did. The same goes for the cause of true religion as a fool will always be offended but it is for the fool's own good.

It is Truth VJ that one is a mirror image for another, and if you see everyone as fools, then it is to yourself that you must look and remove that image.
Vj ~ How would you know what is the truth, when you yourself have been a "mirror image" of a fool for so long?

for God did not and could not create fools,
Vj ~ Tell that to the Christians for they believe Lucifer, the fool of all fool, was God's creation.

we are ALL made in His image, even you although you are not it seems aware of it.
Again fool, God is formless and therefore has no image.

Reply to Jacsimo - 05 03 07
The subject line is from a Beatles song VJ, they must have been singing about you Seeing as you relate to fools more than most.
Vj ~ How many times I have to say it " only the wise can draw nectar (wisdom) from poison (fool)? Yes, so I do relate to fools.

Sorry to overule you as I say I have not been insulted by you, nor intimdated by you
Vj ~ Excellent!

I just feel sorry for you
Vj ~ I just feel sorry for the whole human race.

that you are so cock sure of yourself.
Vj ~ What else can I do, such is the nature of wisdom.

that you cannot see the glaring errors and contradictions in your posts
Vj ~ Give me a definition for truth and probably I too will be able to see them.

Sorry, you are the fool here, where did I mention anything about form? I know that God is formless, but you obviously don't understand what this like this 'created in His image' means, or else you wouldn't have made a stupid remark like that.
Vj ~ A sensible person will explain rather than jumping to the conclusion that it is stupid. My understanding is, an image is a form. If a house is built in an image of a shoe, it will take the form of a shoe.

Thing is as I have said before, I understand much of the Upanishads, the Buddhist religion, the Bible, which you claim I don't know.
Vj ~ It is not much of an understanding to speak of in your present (ignorant) condition. Reading of anything highly philosophical requires a discriminating intellect (knowing true from false). You are void of reasoning the path to such a requirement.

A false claim once more, as I happend to be a Sunday school teacher many years ago, hence had to know the Bible
Vj ~ Really, I just feel sorry for those you taught. And didn't you read anywhere in the bible where Jesus was taken up the mountain by the devil and shown all the kingdoms of the world?

But as you yourself have said, the mind has to be emptied of all contents, before it can be filled up from within, then and only then can Turth come in.
Vj ~ Actually, it is the intellect first, but you're ok since you don't have a functional one.

Reply to My2cents - 05 ,04 07
Go back and read # 358 (paragraphs 5 and 6).
Vj ~ I did, but all I find is that the myth continues. It wouldn't matter what you write of those who came in defense of the flat-earth myth, it still doesn't make any sense since they are of this modern era and not of the time while Biblical myths were invented. How can you claim to be a man of rational or logical thinking if you cannot show me the faults in my faith?

You smugly proclaim, “I have put together five tests of true religion and any religion that fails to meet any of the five is completely false.” Your website lists these self-serving tests as follows:
Vj ~ They have met rational and universal standards and not because the Bible doesn't meet such high standards, it is "self-serving"?

1. It must exist in its entirety from the beginning of creation for all of mankind. [that’s one opinion]
Vj ~ God is just, depriving none of divine revelation and that is the opinion of a sensible person, do you have a problem with that? Here is another sensible opinion:

"If there is a God who has created heaven and earth, it will be unjust on His part if He deprived millions of souls born before Moses, of His divine knowledge." Prof. F. Max Mueller

2. It must conform with (immutable) natural laws. [but these are never spelled out]
Are you sure about that. If the desire was there for the truth or prove your religion to be true, you would have gone hunting for it.

3. It must be in harmony with reasoning. [but it must be sound reasoning – most of your examples are not. Case in point – you realize Almighty God created the universe, yet insist He cannot perform the comparatively simpler matter of raising the dead]
Vj ~ Sound reasoning speaks of His power better demonstrated by wisdom and not by stupidity. The Prime Minister is the most powerful man in our nation, but yet he is not above the law and if the "simpler matter" of violating any of the laws still leaves him in good standing then we will certainly have to question what you call "sound reasoning", won't we?

4. It must be in harmony with science. [but science can never be absolute as it’s always changing as new discoveries are made, and it cannot be used to disprove miracles as science can only tell us what usually happens, not what cannot happen or how God may or may not decide to intervene]
Vj ~ It is true science is always changing, but many relevant facts of our universe have been made known to us. For example, we know our Universe is not 6,000 years old as Christians believed and as a matter of fact we know so much more of science that we are totally convinced that the Bible is not its origin. Again, medical science has proven incest leads to mental and physical infirmities which meant God could not have created one man and one woman.

5. Its truth must be confirmed by four evidences (Direct Cognition, Inferences, Testimony, History) [but you reject all testimony that isn’t Vedic in nature. Again, how convenient for you]
Vj ~ We accept the testimony of wise men whose thoughts are in harmony with each other, who knew the origin of matter, the material cause of the universe and well acquainted with the immutable laws of nature.
Here is what six of many had to say of creation:

[I]"Nothing in this world can be produced without proper application." Mimansa"
"Nothing can be done or made without the expenditure of time." Vaisheshika
"Nothing in this world can be produced without the material cause." Niyaya
"Nothing can be made without the requisite skill, knowledge and thought." Yoga
"Nothing can be made without the definite combination of atoms." Sankhaya
"Nothing can be made without a Maker." Vedanta[/I]

Since these rules come from Vj and not the Almighty, they carry no authority. Well, maybe on planet Vj – LOL.
Vj ~ My authority is dictated by the wisdom of the Vedas, source of ethics, morals and all sciences, and the Almighty is the author. You figure the rest out.

Reply to Omega 05 05 07 -
an EYE OR AN EYE ENDS UO WITH THE WHOLE GOING BLIND
What on earth was your god thinking when he invented such a stupid rule? It is a good thing he came to his senses, even though it took him 4000 years, and changed it to "turning the other cheek", there could have been a lots of blind Christians around.

what is it with you and all your claims that the New King James Bible is so full of errors?
The frog insists that his little well is all the world there is inspite of being told of the vast oceans. If you can't step out of your little world of the Bible and look at the other scriptures with impartiality and good reasoning you will never see the errors you dwell in.

It one thing to say at large that entire Bible is completely eroneous, it is all together different to make an allegory statement of the little frog in the pond and to compare it with the entire world.
That too! It (Bible) was never for the "entire world" from the very beginning of creation (depriving millions) until 500 years ago, a grave injustice of the Christian god.

I'm satisfied with your wise response.
Richard, I take it then that you are no longer a Christian and that you are on your way to liberating yourself from a life time of ignorance.

Posted by Vj - 05 05 07
"You shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free."
What is the truth and free from what?
If you have doubts you are not free, if you are emotional you are not free, if you are sentimental you are not free, if you are constantly bored you are not free, if you can be offended or insulted you are not free, if there is discomfort of any kind (stress, fatigue, frustration, jealousy, vanity, coveteousness, hot or cold, obseity, etc.) you are not free, if you can't shower with cold water you are not free, if you are stricken with desease you are not free, if you are hungry you are not free, if you are happy one moment and unhappy the next you are not free, if you are unhappy with the way you look (dress, complexion, physical or mental stature or features, etc.) you are not free, attachment to the material is not freedom, discontentment of any kind is not freedom, and above all if you are not free from any of these there can be no freedom (heaven) after this life. If one or more is your present state know that what you believe in is not true.

In truth, you have to be absolutely free in life to be totally free in the next. So don't bother about being free for now, just work up the desire to know the only truth that can eventually set you free for only when you are free you are free to free others.

Reply to Omega - 05 03 07
Vj, Due to a critical eye accident, seeing the keyboard is very painful.
Vj ~ Now that you know what is painful, it should be a deterent in believing in a false dogma. Continuing can only lead to more pain and missery for you.

Yet, I was moved to response to your last post.'
Vj ~ You should be moved to ingrain the proper reasoning habit. It is the only way you can see the faults of the Bible. Anyways, it is still a good thing to carry on with such a belief for if all see the wisdom of the Vedas there will be an enormous shortages of creatures in the animal kingdom.

I am a christian. I believe in God Our Heavenly Father. who loves us all unconditionally Through His only begotten Son, we have become reconcilled to Him, that is it
Vj ~ I am well aware of what your belief is, and this is why I am trying to tell you that your god, your heavenly father is a false. The one true God has no "begotten son". You need to love yourself first by striving to be free from all the pains and miseries of this world, it is the only way God's love can be demonstrated.

There is no other truth
Vj ~ We go back to the frog analogy again where the frog vehemently denies the existence of the vast oceans accepting his own little well as the whole world. Truth is that which is in harmony with reasoning, science and in conformity with natural laws. There is indeed, no other truth but the one that meets this definiton.

Vj, Within my soul is knowledge that i am imperfect that within my DNA there is SIN
Vj ~ To admit you are a sinner and do nothing about it is ignorance. Perhaps, before my appearance there was no hope, but what is your excuse now that I am here with the truth.

To be set free I must yield to the way of Jesus Christ
Vj ~ Then like him you must be prepared to be crucified.

Who said If you have seen me then you have seen the ONE who sent me.
Vj ~ It is an injustice for you to so easily acquire a freedom that was denied to those (Aztecs, Mayans, Incas etc.) who never heard of or seen Jesus Christ. God is just and He can never be guilty of such injustices as Bible portrayed Him to be.

VJ, one who has reached enlightenment, does not need to shout it from the rooftops.
Really, if only the ignorant can be concsious for only a few seconds they perhahps could understand what they write. 'Enlightened' Jesus shouted it from a mountain top, so why can't I from a "rooftop"?

His/her conduct will be enough for other's to see and follow and all will be greatly touched by such a one.
Adam and Eve were disobedient, Cain a murderer and co-habit with his sister, Abraham and adulterer who seduced his housemaid, Lot impregnated his two daughters, Moses murdered, David and Solomon were adulterers. Are these the "conduct" Christians are touched by?

If you have to keep shouting that you have the Truth, be assured, you do not have.
Then you must have, how else are you so sure that I don't have it.

At best with the knowledge you do posses, and I do know that you posses some which is usefull to those on the path, but at best all you can be at the moment is a helpmate for them, there to encourage them to ever go inwards to where Truth resides and to seek deeper and deeper within themselves where the Truth will be given to them that seek.
Why so much interest "to encourage them" and not you? Had you been an idiot your aspirations would have been to strive for it before others.

Now Jesus was enlighetened in the fullest sense of the word.
Vj ~ Not much for enlightenment coming from a fool. It would mean that you are also "enlightened to the fullest sense", how else would you be aware of his enlighenment?

He was Christed, attaining within himself the Christ Consciousness. He had therefore the right to teach and many recognised the light within him. Those that were ready to see that light within him saw it shine through him as pure love for those in contact with him and saw also the wonderous works that were performed through him by the Holy Spirit within.
Vj ~ Really, Judas betrayed him and Peter denied him thrice so much for the "light within him" to those close to him.

Now VJ I do not demean the Veda's in anyway, I think it time that you stop demeaning the Bible and come to realise that there is Truth contained therein as there is Truth contained within all the scriptures.
Even if you want to you cannot demean the Vedas (truth) for if a fool can do that it won't be truth at all.

Posted by Vj - 05 06 07
In closing here are two very rational quotes from Thomas Paine:

“It is only by the exercise of reasoning, that man can discover God.” Thomas Paine

Revelation is a communication of something, which the person to whom the thing is revealed did not know before. For if I have done a thing, or seen it done, it needs no revelation to tell me, I have done or seen it done nor enable me to tell it or write it. Revelation therefore cannot be applied to anything done upon earth, of which man is himself actor or witness and consequently all the historical part of the bible which is almost the whole of it, is not within the meaning and compass of the word revelation and therefore is not the word of god." Thomas Paine

It can be so for anyone else who choose to follow in his foot steps.

Reply to My2cenrts - 05 06 07
Hi Vj, The deist Thomas Paine LIKEWISE HAS NO TIME FOR THE VEDIC RELIGION (OR ANY OTHER RELIGION which claims to be a revelation from God).
Vj ~ That is quite alright we are all born in different conditions and as opposed to those the majority who will never ever come close to proper reasoning, Thomas Paine and a few of his kind has made great strides in overcoming credulous dogmas. Elevation of the soul has levels and he is certainly out of the bottomless pit Christians, and other of false dogmas, have dug themselves.

Yet you again repeated his quote:
I have to, it is that what good teachers do when a student is dull in intellect.

As I said earlier: Paine mistakenly uses a rather limited and self-serving definition allowing him to dismiss the Bible because of its historical content.
I did too, for that is what rational men do. Revelation of such nature is from God to all His creations (past and the future) and not only the present, so for it to be an authority for all times, it must be free from historical references. As I said history is man-made and only man write history to serve our own purpose and has nothing to do with God's revelation.

The online dictionary, however, defines “revelation” as follows:
1. A) The act of revealing or disclosing or
B) Something revealed, especially a dramatic disclosure of something not previously known or realized. And
2. (In theology) A manifestation of divine will or truth.
The Colins Pocket Dictionary:
Bastard
1. Person born of parents not married to each other
2. Anything spurious or inferior
3. Of illegitimate birth or uncertain origin.

One can see that the Bible not only qualifies as a revelation under definitions 1A and 2, but also 1B – especially when one considers its predictive prophetic passages.
One can see that all three definitions clearly support the idea that Jesus was born a bastard.

Thomas Paine: AS TO WRITTEN OR PRINTED BOOKS, BY WHATEVER NAME THEY ARE CALLED, THEY ARE THE WORKS OF MAN’S HANDS, AND CARRY NO EVIDENCE IN THEMSELVES THAT GOD IS THE AUTHOR OF ANY OF THEM.” THIS RULES OUT THE VEDAS with the same broad brush he uses on the Bible.
Vj ~ How could it, when knew nothing of the Vedas?

(Btw, this last quote demonstrates that Paine was obviously not well versed in Christian evidences or aware of the Bible’s unique record of fulfilled prophecy, which can only be accounted for by Divine Inspiration.)
Vj ~ He was well versed in reasoning to the point where he refuted the teachings of the Bible and that was good enough.

No one OF ANY RELIGIOUS PERSUASION should resort to quoting the likes of Paine for intellectual support who has such unmitigated contempt for the very idea of revealed religion. It shows either a lack of thorough investigation, or a deliberate attempt to only quote what words are deemed useful. Either way, something is amiss.
Like me, he had contempt for what was erroneous and not what made sense. And where does it show that you were thorough in investigating the Vedic religion or any other?

As you admit yourself, Paine didn't find God in his lifetime, so he is hardly one to follow. Because his "reasoning" was flawed and based on incorrect assumptions, he did not reach the correct conclusion.
Anyone who believes the Bible to be the word of God can never be an authority on finding flaws in Paine's reasoning.

Jesus warned us that "if the blind lead the blind, both will fall into the ditch."
Really, and who was there to warn those before Christ and later, those in remote regions who never heard of him? A human void of reasoning is indeed blind and so are all those who believe, for in belief there are doubts.

Jesus also said, "I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life." - John 5:24 Words to live by.
The truth is Jesus was a dunce and so is the one who sent him, for there is no such thing as eternal life. All things finite (created) must come to an end, a law. Eternity applies to only that which has neither beginning and nor ending.

Reply to my2cents - 05 07 07
Reached the bottom of your intellectual barrel and come up empty again?
Well if you were at the top I wouldn't have had to go the bottom and since I came up empty it only meant that there is no cure for a fool.

Seems you'll never learn. Name calling is the last resort of the intellectually bankrupt, as profanity is the last refuge of the inarticulate – the final stages reached by those with nothing of value to say.
There is no value in agreeing with what is false. I speak the truth and of course what fool wouldn't be hurt by it?

Having to habitually resort to ad hominem attacks merely emphasizes the weakness of your own case, and once again, legitimate criticisms of your position are left unaddressed - another of your bad habits.
So why not seek out the true knowledge of the Vedas and join the elite class of intellects who can never be offended by "ad hominem attacks"?

Vj, Vj, Vj... You are living proof of the old adage, "There are none so blind as those who WILL NOT see." At least you will no longer be able to use the Vision board as a medium from which to lead others into the ditch.
It is those who pretend to see that cannot really see. Wisdom is not attained by sight, but acquiring the correct knowledge and putting it into practice through deep contemplation (yoga). Sight without good reasoning still leaves you blind. Jesus was born a bastard as indicated by the bible and supported by the dictionary which you use to support your definition of revelation.

Reply to OMEGA - 05 07 07
Vj, I am most disappointed with you, your last post truly reveals your inner soul
Vj ~ Perhaps your disappointment lies in the dictionary. I don't understand when you fellas use it, it is ok, but when I use it is disappointing.
If your God needs you to protect him, then how is he supposed to protect you? It is by your own revelation he was born out of wedlock and I know that according to the dictates of natural laws conception cannot occur without the reproductive element which cannot be produced by a subtle spirit. The truth does hurt but what else can I do since I advocate nothing else but the truth.

Plant a thought and you will reap a deed Replant that deed, and you will reap a habit Replant that habit and you will reap a character Replant that character and you will reap a destiny. As a soul sowest so shall they reapest
Vj ~ Replant repentance and you are forgiven and go straight to heaven. Hey brain-dead, how can a man reapeth what he soweth when he can be forgiven? A thief went to heaven with Jesus, is that what you reap for being wicked and evil?

The HOLY SPIRIT sent Our LORD: Jesus the CHRIST as a Divine manifestation of Father God power JESUS was bord of WATER FLESH and HOLY SPIRIT.
Vj ~ Perhaps, but still the fact remains that he was born a bastard (out of wedlock). You'd think the "HOLY SPIRIT' was wiser than that.

To deny and to slander the HOLY SPIRIT is a Grave SIN. TO plant that THOUGHT one sins against their very SOUL.
Vj ~ From where I am standing it is a grave sin to worship such a god and "HOLY SPIRIT' which leaves your soul in very serious trouble.

Reply to Omega - 05 08 07
Show more respect for Almighty God, even if you do not believe
If I am to respect ignorance how would the ignorant be free of it. Your god is not almighty for almighty takes care of all creation and not only Jews (Abraham), Muslims (Ishmael) and Christians (Jesus). As a matter of fact, since they are all immoral (adultery, murder, incest, etc.) and at war with each other (bondage, slavery, inquisition, crusaders, etc.) it is diffcult to figure out what he is really good at.

I am not disappointed with your Appitude, But extremely disappointed with your Attitude.
Vj ~ No my friend, you are disappointed and hurt by the truth. If there were any truth in Christianity there could be no disappointment for whomever follows it.

You do not own a lease on your life If I were you I would practice what I preach.
Vj ~ I do, I am free of all the diseases that inflict you.

Show some respect for Almighty God You'll be spending a lot of time away from Jesus the CHRIST If you do not respect HIM Then He will have a special place for the likes of you.
Vj ~ This is what I am trying to tell you idiots, your god is not almighty he is bloody thirsty prejudicial thug. No human with my learning can respect such a dispicable creature who promotes men of immoral and very vile character to lead millions of soul to pain and misery. If my "special place" is away from liars, adulterers, pimps, murderers and those guilty of incest ('pious' men of the Bible), I welcome it whole-heartedly.

Reply to my2cents - 05 08 07
Knowing, and thinking you know, aren't the same thing Vj
Believing (in doubt) and thinking what you believe is true, is the same thing.

Vj, You continue to demonstrate that you do not know enough about Christianity to critique it.
Vj ~ The danger is when you know much of the Christianity and nothing else, you will never know how rational the "critique" is.

In Jesus’ day, the Jewish marriage relationship began with the engagement. In fact, it was considered so binding that in order to break off an engagement, one had to obtain a writing of divorce.
Vj ~ So if the engagement was legal and binding what would be necessity for marriage? Why don't Christians just get engaged and call it marriage after all who was better to set such a 'good' example but Jesus himself.

Jesus was conceived miraculously by the Holy Spirit after Mary and Joseph were committed to each other, but before they had sexual relations.
No conception can occur without sexual union (reproductive element) it is a law, unchangeable, from the beginning of creation until now, and will be to the end. You nitwits have to grow up and face the facts that the Bible is out of touch with modern science and good reasoning.

As Mary and Joseph were already legally bound to each other and were soon after married, Jesus was not born out of wedlock.
Vj ~ Man you have cow manure for brains! Are you listening to yourself here? They "were soon after married" that is, after Jesus was born. Meaning that he was born out of wedlock and even worst, if Joseph didn't have sexual intercourse with her yet, the father had to be someone else and as rumour has it, it could be a Roman soldier.

and as it is undeniably impossible for God to commit an immoral act, Christ’s miraculous conception via the power of the Holy Spirit is itself holy and blameless.
Vj ~ It is not only immoral for a woman to have a child not belonging to her husband, but it is totally frivolous an idea she was conceived by a mere spirit. But to a Christian who knows no better that is all they can do, to them it makes sense, but to the learned it is another matter.

You can’t have it both ways. You can’t use the Bible in an attempt to prove Jesus was born out of wedlock, and then ignore it’s testimony to His miraculous conception. Such mishandling of Scripture belies your claims of objectivity. Even if your crass accusation were true, your argument still amounts to nothing more than an ad hominem attack. Calling Jesus illegitimate does not negate His teaching, His perfect life, nor His atoning sacrifice – even for those like you who do not have the capacity to appreciate it.
Vj ~ It has always been one way for me, the Bible in its entirety, its messenger and the god who initiated it all, is false. You on the other hand, should try it both ways, keep in touch with your belief and at the same time try to investigate the others, for who wouldn't want to know what they believe in, is true or false?

In spite of all your protests to the contrary, the Almighty (by definition) IS ABLE to create – whenever and whatever He chooses to - whether it be the universe itself or a human vessel for His Son's incarnation.
He is only Almighty when He works within His laws and not above it. It is ignorant and evil people who go against the law and not the wise.

This also was dealt with before, but again, you weren’t listening. Some things never change. As Mark Twain said, it's what you think you "know" for sure "that ain't so" Vj that will one day come back to haunt you.
Vj ~ I think you should be listening and Mark Twain was right, since day has already come to haunt you, knowing what many knew he was born a bastard.

Knowing, and thinking you know, aren't the same thing Vj
Vj ~ Very true, so what do you know of the Vedas? I had to know of all the other religions because it was the only way to ascertain mine to be true. It is what a sensible person would do.

Vj, You continue to demonstrate that you do not know enough about Christianity to critique it.[/
Vj ~ All I have to know and understand is the true functions of natural laws to discredit not only Christianity but any religion or scientific theory.

You can’t use the Bible in an attempt to prove Jesus was born out of wedlock, and then ignore it’s testimony to His miraculous conception.
Vj ~ The stories surrounding his birth and his mother still a virgin are breeches to natural laws and that makes him a bastard. God does not take a form and has no son for it will be prejudicial and an injustice, in favoring one race, nationality or creed over the others. Get it!