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Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 21:40:19 -0500
From: John Yohalem <enchante@escape.com>
To: FIRE <danica@mills.edu>
Subject: Re: US News bashes now too; in defense of Tanya Luhrmann
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Please read the article below slowly, without jumping to conclusions:
> The article from http://www.usnews.com/usnews/news/culhigh.htm
> printed 4/1/97
>
> -------------
>
> Witches, magic,
> ordinary folks
>
> Why entering a cult is
> comforting and feels a lot
> like joining a religion
>
> BY TANYA LUHRMANN
>
> The most important thing to grasp about
> the recent drama in San Diego is that it is
> not hard for reasonable people to hold
> unreasonable beliefs. Over a decade ago, I
> spent a few years with people who called
> themselves witches, pagans, and "initiates
> of the Western Mysteries." This was my
> fieldwork for a doctorate in anthropology,
> and since anthropologists try to go native
> and then come back, that's what I did. I
> got myself initiated by these groups and
> learned to summon the elements, cast
> magicalnot magic, per au--sbv spells, read
> the tarot, jump over bonfires, and
> generally to manipulate magical power in
> order to manipulate my world. I am not
> now a practicing magician. This was
> something I did for my dissertation. It was
> clear to me, however, that magic, God,
> and a belief that one belongs on a different
> planet fit into the same category of
> knowledge. You can't prove them right,
> but you can't prove them wrong either.
> Just because a belief in magic seems more
> implausible than a belief in God, and
> belief in space aliens more implausible
> still, you don't have the luxury of saying
> that the act of believing in one is
> fundamentally different from the act of
> believing in another. And the witches
> seemed pretty normal to me. How do
> ordinary people come to accept beliefs that
> other people find implausible, or, since all
> of us do that, beliefs that most of us find
> wholly untenable for which others will kill
> themselves?
>
> Spiritual ecstasy. To begin with,
> joining a marginal group can be fun. To
> explain unusual religious groups,
> sociologists argue that before joining,
> members felt relatively deprived of wealth
> or power and that identifying with the
> group compensated for that lack. This
> probably isn't wrong, but it misses the
> point. People I met who became witches
> derived pleasure from mastering the arcane
> intricacies of astrology, cabala,
> mythology, and the lore of herbal
> medicine. They pored over books and
> charts. They became experts, just as
> Jehovah's Witnesses become experts in
> their religious symbology and relish the
> chance to talk about it with you when
> you'd rather do almost anything else.
> Many cultlike groups practice techniques
> of spiritual ecstasy--meditation,
> visualization, trance--that are used the
> world over and are very compelling.
> Someone who spent years with Bhagwan
> Shree Rajneesh told me she thought that
> people got addicted to his meditations.
> They didn't, of course, but it's a mistake
> to underestimate how vivid it feels to learn
> to be possessed by, say, the Egyptian cat
> goddess Bast.
>
> Members of these groups, like any
> specialists, also acquire new ways of
> paying attention that help validate their
> ideas. The people with whom I studied
> magic learned how to look for evidence
> that the magical power had begun to flow.
> They would do a ritual about the sea and,
> the next day, would scan their friends for
> signs of deep emotion--the sea being
> associated with feelings in this world.
> They would look to see if the papers
> carried any unexpected pictures of the
> ocean. They were not fools. They often
> decided that some ritual had failed. But the
> way they learned to look for proof
> convinced them that they had tested a
> theory and found it good. The religious
> often feel that way, that they have looked
> for signs of God's grace and that he has
> affirmed them.
>
> Finally, members of these groups often
> develop a figure of speech to explain the
> gulf between their views and those of
> skeptics. People in magic would talk about
> the "magical plane." Magic happened on
> the magical plane, the ordinary world on
> the ordinary plane. Every magician had a
> homespun philosophy about how these
> planes related and would justify the magic
> with an account that would make sense
> even to a skeptic--that practicing magic
> made them better people, just as Christians
> talk to skeptics about the spiritual
> "dimension" and say they go to church
> because it makes them better people.
>
> Killing yourself for your religious beliefs
> is an extreme test of your faith. It is also,
> thankfully, uncommon. On the other
> hand, it is the technique that carried the
> message of Christianity so powerfully in
> the early centuries of its first millennium.
> That Christians were willing to martyr
> themselves rather than recant was a
> powerful testament to that faith. Those
> martyrs remind us that we can't take the
> easy route by saying that the California
> cultists killed themselves because they
> were weirder than the rest of us.
>
> Tanya Luhrmann is an associate professor
> of anthropology at the University of
> California--San Diego. She is the author
> of Persuasions of the Witch's Craft.
The fact is, Tanya L has never been an enemy of ours, and as the last
paragraph makes clear, she is drawing an analogy between Heaven's GAte and
early Christian practice, as well as witchcraft. Indeed, if you read
between the lines, you will see that she is calling ALL religious belief
and magical "weird" and irrational -- which is pretty fair,
isn't it?
That she is being used (like Erik Davis) by our enemies does not mean she
is one of them. Quite the contrary.
Brightshadow
Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 21:41:53 -0500
From: John Yohalem <enchante@escape.com>
To: FIRE <danica@mills.edu>
Subject: Re: FIRE: discussion: waahh
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John Brightshadow Yohalem
enchante@escape.com
"Sometimes I feel discriminated against, but it does not make me
angry. It
merely astonishes me. How *can* any deny themselves the pleasure of my
company?"
-- Zora Neale Hurston
<[}xxxxxx{]::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::>
----------
> Today, I happily wore my pentagram to work (for the third day in a
row)
> anticipating eagerly some sort of verbal bout with a fellow
co-worker.
>
> He's a very enthusiastic Baptist who believes the Pope is the
> anti-christ...and I've heard some strange stories from other
co-workers
> about this fellow.
>
> I armed myself this morning with a shield and intelligent verbal
arguments
> only to find that throughout my entire 4 hour shift with him, despite
the
> many times he commanded my attention...he NEVER NOTICED my
pentagram!!
>
> What's a girl have to do?
Wear a lower-cut gown.
But seriously: if he had noticed it, he would probably just have wished
you
happy hanukkah.
Brightshadow
Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 21:53:27 -0500
From: John Yohalem <enchante@escape.com>
To: FIRE <danica@mills.edu>
Subject: Re: FIRE: discussion: Catholics vs. Christians (vs. Lions?)
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John Brightshadow Yohalem
enchante@escape.com
"Sometimes I feel discriminated against, but it does not make me
angry. It
merely astonishes me. How *can* any deny themselves the pleasure of my
company?"
-- Zora Neale Hurston
<[}xxxxxx{]::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::>
----------
> An old friend of mine who is devoutly and annoyingly Lutheran (more
on
that
> later) insists that Catholicism (sp?) usurped the position of first
Christian
> denomination. According to her, the Baptists have that dubious honor,
and
she
> claims they were treated as badly as the Jews during the Inquisition.
>
> I have no idea if this is true or not, just that she was adamant
about
it.
>
> BTW, my supervisor is a very serious Lutheran but when I told her the
stories
> about the above-mentioned friend, she shuddered and said, "I
know we
have
some
> of those, but we aren't proud of them."
Catholicism triumphed in part because it made many compromises with
existing non-Christian religions, and absorbed them. The Reformation was,
in part, an attempt to go back to the Bible, i.e. to get everything that
wasn't Biblically sanctioned out of Christianity. This is the source of
the
claim, by many Protestant groups, to be "Christian" while the
Catholics
aren't. (THe Catholics cleaned up much of their act, too -- alas.) Luther
always said he was just "reforming" Catholicism, not cutting
himself off
from it, and I've encountered other Lutherans who claim to be the
"true
Catholic church". Baptists, Presbyterians and Congregationalists, on
the
other hand (also the original Unitarians, who sure wouldn't recognize
their
modern descendants), split off quite decidedly in the 16th and 17th
centuries. Quakers and Anabaptists left society altogether. Methodists
were
an anti-Anglican reaction in the 18th century, a lets get back to basics
and stop all this learned stuff deal. Episcopalians and Anglicans are the
Church of England, which is to say England's attempt to retain Catholic
forms without an international church. And of course the Eastern Orthodox
Church claims ALL the western Christians, descending from Rome, are
basically heretical. Which is true.
I find the whole subject vastly entertaining, never having been any sort
of
Christian.
I think your friend is confusing the Baptists, who arose rather later,
with
the Anabaptists, a millennarian and orgiastic and revolutionary sect who
were exterminated in the 16th century in Germany. There were no Baptists
in
Spain or Italy or Belgium or South America, which is where the Spanish
Inquisition operated. (It was all one country then.)
Brightshadow
Date: Wed, 02 Apr 1997 21:39:57 EST
From: Carolyn E Cason <cecason2@juno.com>
To: danica@mills.edu
Subject: Re: action alert: media issues with misconceptions
On Wed, 2 Apr 1997 17:24:56 -0800 (PST) FIRE <danica@mills.edu> writes:
>Date: Wed, 02 Apr 1997 20:04:17 -0400 (EDT)
>From: "David R. Burwasser" <Lisette.Burwasser@oberlin.edu>
>To: FIRE <danica@mills.edu>
>Subject: Re: FIRE: action alert: media issues with misconceptions
>
>Anyone who calls Rush Limbaugh on the air, other than to feed the
>man's
>ego, is asking for abuse.
>
>
Is this just a general statement of the obvious, or does it come from
experience? I have to confess one little indiscretion concerning Rush.
I used to be forced to listen to him everyday, and once, ONCE, I found
myself agreeing with him. Eeewww!!!!!!!!!! Carolyn :)
Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 22:14:44 -0500 (EST)
From: Karen Jones <dragons@arches.uga.edu>
To: FIRE <danica@mills.edu>
Subject: Re: FIRE: dIscussion: Paradise Lost
Thank you Ms. Outlaw Pussycat for the Paradise Lost update. Yes,
unfortunately, since Creative Loafing needs to be shipped an hour away
from Atlanta, it incurs cost. Kinda sucks since it says FREE in large
letters on the cover.
So you're Mother Goose at the Georgia Renn Fest? Cool. I'll warn you
before introducing myself when I go. (How is the new facility?).
Sorry all for the non-Pagan content. I won't do it again.
Allison
Date: Wed, 02 Apr 1997 21:39:56 EST
From: Carolyn E Cason <cecason2@juno.com>
To: danica@mills.edu
Subject: Re: discussion: Catholics vs. Christians (vs. Lions?)
On Wed, 2 Apr 1997 17:08:46 -0800 (PST) FIRE <danica@mills.edu> writes:
>Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 16:01:49 -0800 (PST)
>From: phyllis johnpoll <suki_nova@hotmail.com>
>To: danica@mills.edu
>Subject: FIRE: Catholics vs. Christians (vs. Lions?)
>[snip]
>. . . Catholicism (sp?) usurped the position of first
>Christian
>denomination. According to her, the Baptists have that dubious honor.
.
.
First of all, your spelling of Catholicism is correct. Secondly, where
does your friend get her information? Having grown up Catholic, and
having spent most of my school years in a parochial school, I had it
pounded into me that Catholicism was *the first* Christian religion.
Obviously, that information comes from a biased point of view. Anybody
else have different views? (Now, wait a minute! We're supposed to be
talking about Wicca, Paganism, and all that other stuff! I hope all you
others out there will be patient during this conversation.)
>. . . (I have no life....)
You and me, both, Sister! Unfortunately, I'm not in the Denver area.
Quite some space distant from it, as a matter of fact. Good luck on
getting your gathering together.
Carolyn :)
Date: Wed, 02 Apr 1997 21:39:56 EST
From: Carolyn E Cason <cecason2@juno.com>
To: danica@mills.edu
Subject: Re: discussion: waahh
On Wed, 2 Apr 1997 16:56:05 -0800 (PST) FIRE <danica@mills.edu> writes:
>Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 15:41:08 -0500 (EST)
>From: Sarah E Elsbernd <gs01see@panther.Gsu.EDU>
>To: cuups-usa@efn.org
>Cc: danica@mills.edu
>Subject: waahh
>
>Hey all,
>
>I just wanted to share something that I think ya'll will get a kick
>out
>of.
>
>Today, I happily wore my pentagram to work (for the third day in a
>row)
>anticipating eagerly some sort of verbal bout with a fellow co-worker.
>
>
>He's a very enthusiastic Baptist who believes the Pope is the
>anti-christ...and I've heard some strange stories from other
>co-workers
>about this fellow.
>
>I armed myself this morning with a shield and intelligent verbal
>arguments
>only to find that throughout my entire 4 hour shift with him, despite
>the
>many times he commanded my attention...he NEVER NOTICED my pentagram!!
>[snip]
>Ripples
I have an interesting story to share, too. A couple of Fridays ago, I
was waiting after work for a friend to pick me up for an Ostara
celebration. Since I was waiting at the shop, the boss felt compelled to
talk to me. He asked me if I had something planned in town, and I
explained that, no, I was going out of town for a sunrise gathering. He
then asked, "Is that a religious thing?" I hesitated for just a
second
before saying, "Yeah." He went on to ask "What religion is
that?"
Again, I had to hesitate, but finally answered "Paganism." The
next
question was "What is the definition of Paganism?" Trying to
keep things
simple, I answered, "It's an Earth-based religion." He
answered, "Oh.
That sounds interesting. Well, have a good weekend." I was honestly
amazed! He seemed to accept it without really giving it much thought.
On the other hand, though, I didn't exactly give him all the pertinent
information about me and my religion, but I'm going to let this sleeping
dog lie. Carolyn :)
Date: Wed, 02 Apr 1997 23:34:11 -0400 (EDT)
From: "David R. Burwasser" <Lisette.Burwasser@oberlin.edu>
To: FIRE <danica@mills.edu>
Subject: Re: FIRE: discussion: Re: action alert: media issues with
misconceptions
On Wed, 2 Apr 1997, FIRE wrote:
> >Anyone who calls Rush Limbaugh on the air, other than to feed the
> >man's
> >ego, is asking for abuse.
> >
> >
> Is this just a general statement of the obvious, or does it come from
> experience? I have to confess one little indiscretion concerning
Rush.
> I used to be forced to listen to him everyday, and once, ONCE, I
found
> myself agreeing with him. Eeewww!!!!!!!!!! Carolyn :)
I've never called him myself, but I have the "opportunity" to
listen to
him every so often when I am prepping a parcel for pickup. The local
pickup is in the back of a retail shop, and the owner keeps a radio tuned
to Rush when there are no customers about. (I am not a customer in the
usual sense; parcel post pickup is a sideline of the shop.) So I have
heard the guy's pitch.
Don't feel bad about agreeing with him every now and then. There are a
lot of average-citizen grievances that nobody in power is addressing, and
Rush occasionally trips over one.
Besides, even a stopped clock is right twice a day. :)
BB -- dB
Date: Thu, 3 Apr 1997 00:41:15 -0500 (EST)
From: Sarah E Elsbernd
To: FIRE
Subject: Re: FIRE: discussion: waahh
>
> John Brightshadow Yohalem
> enchante@escape.com
>
> But seriously: if he had noticed it, he would probably just have wished
you
> happy hanukkah.
>
> Brightshadow
Ripples laughs a LOT!
__________________________
Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 22:01:44 -0500
From: John Yohalem
To: FIRE
Subject: Re: FIRE: intro: Re: Welcome!
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John Brightshadow Yohalem
enchante@escape.com
"Sometimes I feel discriminated against, but it does not make me angry. It
merely astonishes me. How *can* any deny themselves the pleasure of my
company?"
-- Zora Neale Hurston
<[}xxxxxx{]::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::>
----------
> From: FIRE
> To: FIRE:;
> Subject: FIRE: intro: Re: Welcome!
> Date: Wednesday, April 02, 1997 9:58 PM
>
> Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 21:07:33 -0500 (EST)
> From: Sugar0215@aol.com
> To: danica@mills.edu
> Subject: Re: Welcome!
>
> Hi,
> My name is Nauddia I'm 16 and a practicing wiccan. All of my friends
are
> too. I learned about you threw Daughters Of The Goddess a teenage pagan
> girls group. I am absolutely appaled at the accusations made by the
media.
> It is a shame those people commited sueside but that doesn't mean Wicca
and
> Paganism is a cult gruop sure my family thinks I souldn't practice wicca
but
> they can't stop me. The fact theat the media said " How do we protect
our
> children" is over the edge. I am willing to help in any way i can.
Please
> contact me if there is anything I can do.
>
> Blessed Be,
> Nauddia
>
Dear Nauddia --
You might point out that NONE of the people in Rancho Santa Fe were
children. The youngest was 24.
Date: Thu, 3 Apr 1997 06:09:34 -0600 (CST)
From: Christina Van Spoor
To: danica@mills.edu
Subject: To the FIRE List: REALITY CHECK (Was Fwd: Misty Letter)
I was sent this by a friend. Needless to say it offends about damned near
everyone in the Pagan Community. To be certain, reality bites boys and
girls and if you get offended, chances are there was a nerve struck in
there............somewhere.
I always thought living between the worlds never meant you had to give up
reality.
Xina
>
>>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>Here's the deal. Most of the people who are going to read this are nice
>>people. Some are nice people who are a little flaky, but that's cool.
Some
>are
>>nice people who are a LOT flaky, but that's cool, too. But some are not
nice
>>people, and they have real problems. A few of these are dangerous, and
want
>>to manipulate and hurt other people, including us. We just learned
something
>>recently that just happened to be....
>>THE LAST STRAW
>>Mercedes Lackey
>>This is going to offend some people. These are the people who most need
to
>read
>>this. This
>>definitely has needed to be said for a long time. We're writers. We
write
>fiction,
>>which is, by
>>definition, NOT FACT. Creative and entertaining lies, if you will, but
still
>not
>>truth by any kind of
>>stretch of the imagination. So, we've written over 40 books, of which a
>grand total
>>of three are
>>dark fantasy that involve the occult, "real" psychic powers, and
nonstandard
>religions.
>>So what
>>attracts so much trouble and so many lunatics you'd think it was a "Free
>beer and
>>come as your
>>favorite psychosis party" in downtown L.A.? You've got it. The "Diana
>Tregarde
>>Investigations."
>>Take, for instance, the undeniable fact that I haven't written (and at
this
>point,
>>don't intend to
>>write) any more of them. Why? THEY DON'T SELL. The numbers are there in
>black and
>>white.
>>DT books are consistently and vastly outsold by every other type of
fantasy
>we
>>write. Now some
>>people would decide that there was an Evil Force out there preventing
the
>sale
>>of their glorious
>>books and determine to thwart that force and PROVE how wonderful the
>"unpopular"
>>books
>>are, but hey, call me nutty, but I believe that people are trying to
tell
>you something
>>when they
>>don't buy a book, and that is, THEY DON'T WANT THEM! Why should we write
>something
>>people don't want? If every hardcore Diana Tregarde fan bought fifty
copies
>of
>>each book, I
>>could afford to maybe buy a new VCR with the royalties. There are plenty
of
>other
>>people who
>>are already writing books people don't want, and doing it in bigger
numbers
>than
>>we can! Just
>>take a look at the remainder- racks!
>>But, oh, the rumors! Conspiracy theories that would make Oliver Stone
burst
>into
>>tears of envy!
>>Someone periodically starts a rumor that the publisher is "suppressing"
the
>books---the
>>fact is,
>>that like me, they want to publish books that are going to compete with
our
>more
>>popular series.
>>Another is that they have been published, but a fundamentalist group
bought
>them
>>all so no one
>>else could read them, ignoring the fact that if anyone bought an entire
>print-run
>>of anything, it
>>would be on the New York Times bestseller list! Or my favorite two
rumors,
>that
>>appeared IN
>>THE SAME WEEK, one that Larry was a fundamentalist who was preventing me
>from writing
>>them, and a rumor that Larry was an evil pagan who was preventing me
from
>writing
>>them! Then
>>there are the letters taking me to task for not following the
>letter-writer's own
>>particular brand of
>>politically correct neopaganism. THESE BOOKS ARE ENTERTAINMENT ONLY,
>>PEOPLE! I'M NOT RUNNING A RECRUITMENT BUREAU, HERE! And if YOU want a
>>book featuring YOUR favorite brand of religion, YOU go out and write and
try
>to
>>sell one, and
>>good luck and don't let the door hit you on the way out!
>>They were written at the time when horror was outselling everything
else,
>and hey,
>>I wrote them
>>to make money. We've got a mortgage to pay. I suppose by some people's
>standards
>>that is a
>>heinous crime, but I'm sorry for offending your delicate little
>sensibilities.
>>Actually, no I'm not. Get
>>a life, get a grip, and grow a spine; you all ought to know by now that
we
>don't
>>do PC. Then
>>there are the people who insist that the Guardians are real. Hey, if
there
>really
>>were Guardians,
>>you'd see panicky skinheads buying up the Rogaine supply like the KKK at
a
>white
>>sale. There'd
>>be no such thing as a crooked televangelist, when they'd have real
demons
>popping
>>in on their
>>shows to tell them where they were REALLY going.
>>"But Guardians must be real," comes the cry, "How could you make
something
>like
>>that up?" Oh
>>for crying out loud, an "occult police force" is one of the oldest
gizmos in
>horror
>>fiction! The Nine
>>Unknown Men, the Hunting Lodges, the White Lodges, Dr. Orient, Agatha
>Christie's
>>Harley
>>Quinn, to name a few; there's been more good and bad books involving
occult
>"police"
>>than there
>>have been books about vampires! That's FICTION, people! Do you really,
>truly, think
>>that if
>>there WERE an "occult police force" they'd have let those kids in
Florida
>kill
>>their mother and
>>drink her blood, that they'd let kiddie- porn and snuff-film makers
continue
>to
>>operate, or that
>>they WOULDN'T make it their business to track down and dispose of serial
>killers?
>>What're
>>these guys supposedly doing, punishing junk-bond dealers?
>>The thing is, on one level I can sympathize with people who would really
>like to
>>believe that
>>Guardians are real. The world is a scary place, and more and more scary
>things
>>are happening in
>>it, things that really look as if there was a single evil hand behind it
>all. Hey,
>>I wish there were
>>Guardians! I also wish for peace, prosperity and an end to war. There's
>about an
>>equal chance
>>for either.
>>But now we get a little more into the shallow end of the reality pool,
>because
>>some of these
>>people claim that the Guardians are this big, cohesive group watching
over
>everything.
>>As far as
>>that goes, in MY books, the Guardians aren't even organized! They're
about
>as cohesive
>>a group
>>as a herd of grasshoppers! The closest thing to "organization" they have
is
>when
>>two of them run
>>into each other at the Karaoke Club and find out they both want to sing
>"Poisoning
>>Pigeons in the
>>Park." There's NO group meetings, NO politics, no nothing---yet these
same
>people
>>have
>>invented an entire complex hierarchy for them, complete with lodge
meetings,
>secret
>>handshakes,
>>and decoder rings! Cripes! They aren't even reading the books, they're
just
>reading
>>what THEY
>>want to see into the books!
>>It gets stranger. A whole lot stranger. We aren't even in the reality
pool,
>anymore,
>>we're out in
>>the crabgrass around it. There are people claiming to BE Guardians---and
>people
>>who claim they
>>would be Guardians if only some Evil Force wasn't keeping them from
finding
>their
>>own little
>>Yoda and having their occult powers activated. Okay, I can even
sympathize
>with
>>this one,
>>because I've been there too. When your life is in the crapper, you can't
get
>a
>>job that doesn't
>>involve a paper hat and a nametag, and you think that if you dropped off
the
>planet
>>no one would
>>miss you for weeks, it's comforting to believe that all your misfortunes
can
>be
>>blamed on an Evil
>>Occult Force.
>>I had myself talked into that one for a while, but at one critical point
I
>had
>>what the Twelve Step
>>groups call "a moment of clarity," when someone else who had bought into
the
>delusion
>>began
>>coming up with things I knew just weren't true and I realized that the
world
>is
>>what it is, and it
>>doesn't take an evil force to make it that way--- and that I was doing a
>better
>>job of keeping
>>myself unemployed than any Evil Occult Force could. That's when I forced
>myself
>>to admit that I
>>had the best chance of making my life better if I just got a good suit
from
>Goodwill
>>instead of
>>wearing costumes, pounded the pavement looking for work instead of
waiting
>for
>>a Dream Job to
>>be given to me, and put more and smarter effort into realistic goals,
like
>learning
>>computer
>>programming instead of spending all my time staring at a candle and
trying
>to contact
>>my Personal
>>Psychic Trainer. That's when I also realized that I really liked making
up
>the
>>stories, so I didn't
>>give them up, I just stopped telling myself they were real. And I
started
>writing
>>them down, which
>>was a lot more fun when other people started to read them and told me
how
>good
>>they were. But
>>guys, people who tell you that they are Guardians never made that jette
back
>to
>>coolsville (To
>>quote Dennis Miller). They're still in a wobbling pirouette that's
taking
>them
>>straight into the
>>orchestra pit.
>>And here we go right off the end of the bell curve, because the same
>lunatics who
>>say that they
>>are Guardians are bound and determined that I am a Guardian! Jeez
Louise, if
>I
>>had occult
>>powers, would I be sitting here writing my ass off for a living? Heck
no,
>I'd be
>>out in Vegas in the
>>VIP suite with half a dozen semi-naked chorus boys feeding me caviar,
that's
>where
>>I'd be! I'd be
>>cruising the Bahamas on the way to my own tropical island. I'd have a
>mansion and
>>fifty servants,
>>and the biggest aviary outside of a zoo, that's what I'd have, and I'd
have
>more
>>semi-naked
>>chorus boys to do all the cage- cleaning and feeding for me! Meanwhile
Larry
>would
>>be winning
>>Le Mans and Sebring in his unbreakable Lotus (a real occult miracle),
and on
>the
>>side he'd be
>>having one-man shows at the Guggenheim and his personal Ford Indygo
would be
>winning
>>the
>>Pebble Beach Concours d'Elegance. Oh, and he'd also take a few hours off
to
>do
>>some hawking
>>with his Ornate Hawk-Eagle, taking the prizes for high- catch of the
day, of
>course.
>>I'd write for
>>fun, when I felt like it, and not every day, eight hours a day, seven
days a
>week.
>>Have we got that straight, all you cosmic cupcakes? Do you think if I
had
>occult
>>powers I
>>wouldn't have KNOWN those freaks in Oklahoma City were going to blow up
a
>building
>>with a
>>day-care center full of kids in it practically in my own back yard and
have
>DONE
>>something
>>before it happened? Do you think if I had occult powers I wouldn't have
>warned
>>my friends in
>>Los Angeles to be somewhere else when the Northridge Quake busted loose?
Or
>warned
>>my
>>parrot-breeder friends in Florida to get their setups into concrete
>blockhouses
>>long before
>>Hurricane Andrew came through? For crying out loud, wouldn't I have
KNOWN
>Larry's
>>studio
>>was going to have a fire, that our rearmost room was going to flood,
that
>his car
>>was going to
>>have a wreck, and that our garage was going to get hit with a
tornado????
>Wouldn't
>>I have
>>DONE something to avoid these things? And just because those things all
>happened,
>>that
>>DOESN'T mean that I have these cosmic powers and I either LET them
happen or
>MADE
>>them
>>happen because I am evil! Shoot, if you're looking for someone with
Major
>Occult
>>Powers, try
>>someone like Dick Clark---filthy rich, no scandals, and he looks HOW
old? Or
>Paul
>>McCartney, who hasn't aged a day since 1972. The guy that invented Pet
>Rocks---geez,
>>how
>>many of us did he sucker into buying a road-rock in a cardboard box? Had
to
>have
>>been occult
>>powers. Or--- it has to be the way the world works.
>>Reality check time, people, here's a whole ROLL of quarters, there's the
>clue machine,
>>GO BUY
>>SOME. And people, why would someone who belonged to a super-secret
high-risk
>>occult-society with amazing powers at her beck and call be stupid enough
to
>draw
>>the attention
>>of all the Bad Guys by WRITING ABOUT IT? "Hello? Is anyone paying
attention?
>Oh,
>>no---well, let me just run up a GREAT BIG SIGN that says 'Guardian here!
>Come and
>>get me!'"
>>Just what was that supposed to accomplish? Was I supposed to be looking
for
>other
>>Guardians?
>>But if I BELONGED ALREADY to this so-called "Inner Circle" why would I
be
>looking
>>for
>>them? Was I supposed to be recruiting new Guardians? Guys, that gag is
>straight
>>out of THE
>>LAST STARFIGHTER. Yeah, that's a good idea, Gunga Din; let's just raise
our
>profile
>>a lot
>>higher for the Bad Guys to shoot at, and meanwhile, we'll sort through
all
>the
>>mail from every guy
>>who ever wanted to levitate and shoot lightning bolts "Just like in the
>comic books."
>>Hey, we'll
>>find a LOT of potential Guardians that way!
>>Now at this point, if you've somehow been sucked into a group like I've
>described,
>>and you've
>>raised these objections, your Fearless Leader the Great Cranko is
saying,
>"Well
>>of course she'd
>>say THAT, she wouldn't want to blow her cover"---like it wouldn't
already
>have
>>been blown
>>higher than a palm tree at Bikini Atoll---but just how many of those "of
>course
>>she'd say that"s
>>are you going to accept before your logic circuit kicks in?
>>Oh, it gets better! Not only am I a Guardian, but I'm supposedly the
source
>of
>>(or involved in)
>>political corruption among the Guardians. The Old Order has gone bad and
is
>trying
>>to suppress
>>the Young Turks (you know, if I tried to write that plot, my editors
would
>reject
>>it as being too
>>trite). I helped organize some whoop-de-ding spell- casting session to
"burn
>out"
>>all of those who
>>wouldn't follow and obey us. And it's time to destroy the Old Order to
make
>way
>>for the New,
>>Pure of Heart, Full of---well, it rhymes with "hit." Follow and obey ME?
I
>can't
>>even get
>>political corruption among the Guardians. The Old Order has gone bad and
is
>trying
>>to suppress
>>the Young Turks (you know, if I tried to write that plot, my editors
would
>reject
>>it as being too
>>trite). I helped organize some whoop-de-ding spell- casting session to
"burn
>out"
>>all of those who
>>wouldn't follow and obey us. And it's time to destroy the Old Order to
make
>way
>>for the New,
>>Pure of Heart, Full of---well, it rhymes with "hit." Follow and obey ME?
I
>can't
>>even get
>>plumbers to finish fixing my pipes on time! Where the hell did this
paranoid
>delusion
>>come from?
>>If there are any of you out there who have bought into THIS particular
>schizoid
>>fantasy, I have
>>some real harsh words for you. PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY.
>>You are responsible for your OWN thoughts, actions, and attitudes, dudes
and
>dudettes.
>>Somebody else may preach these things, but YOU are the one responsible
for
>hanging
>>your logic
>>out to dry, putting your brain on "record" and forgetting that you're
>supposed
>>to think as well as
>>believe. And if your "coven leader" is feeding you this line of
>garbage---when
>>you READ that this
>>is the last thing we would believe in, you SEE and HEAR that our books
are
>preaching
>>compassion and not trashin', and you can find out with no trouble
whatsoever
>the
>>amount of
>>charity work we do---WHO DOES LOGIC SAY IS THE REAL BAD GUY?
>>Whose ACTIONS are consistent with someone who does the right thing
aswell as
>talking
>>about
>>it? Who goes out and tries to help, instead of blaming some poor fantasy
>writers
>>for "oppressing
>>him?" And kids, when he tells you that you are all going to have to
destroy
>the
>>old order to make
>>way for the new---think REAL HARD for a minute. Those same words have
been
>spoken
>>by
>>other people who got their followers to go out and do horrible things
FOR
>them.
>>People like
>>Thomas Mitzger, Charles Manson and Jim Jones---people who worked up
hysteria
>and
>>paranoia
>>among THEIR followers then sat back with folded hands while real blood
>flowed,
>>and said, "but
>>I am innocent, I haven't done anything!"
>>Okay, so maybe all these guys want to do is have you all hold hands in a
>circle
>>and try and give
>>me a headache. Hey, knock yourselves out, have a good time, and don't
>>way for the new---think REAL HARD for a minute. Those same words have
been
>spoken
>>by
>>other people who got their followers to go out and do horrible things
FOR
>them.
>>People like
>>Thomas Mitzger, Charles Manson and Jim Jones---people who worked up
hysteria
>and
>>paranoia
>>among THEIR followers then sat back with folded hands while real blood
>flowed,
>>and said, "but
>>I am innocent, I haven't done anything!"
>>Okay, so maybe all these guys want to do is have you all hold hands in a
>circle
>>and try and give
>>me a headache. Hey, knock yourselves out, have a good time, and don't
drive
>home
>>intoxicated
>>afterwards. But maybe they want to manipulate you into doing something
very
>bad
>>in the real
>>world. I've got news for you, kids. IF THEY DO, YOU ARE STILL
RESPONSIBLE
>FOR
>>YOUR OWN ACTIONS. YOU will go down; maybe embarrassment, maybe to
>jail---maybe
>>to Death Row. Why? Because YOU handed over your brain and conscience to
a
>would-be
>>tin-pot dictator who gets his jollies out of manipulating people he
thinks
>are
>>weak- willed and
>>suggestible suckers.
>>And right now some of you are saying "oh that couldn't possibly happen
among
>fans!"
>>(or pagans,
>>or whatevers). Guess again. It not only can, it already has. Within my
own
>very
>>limited circle of
>>acquaintances, I PERSONALLY have VERIFIED with mundane sources---one man
>ennobled
>>in the SCA who took on a contract-killing and is currently in prison for
it,
>one
>>man in fan circles
>>who was convicted of child molestation and went to jail for it and died
>there,
>>one man in
>>RenFaire, sf-convention and pagan circles who was caught and convicted
of
>multiple
>>torture-murders, one man in fan and SCA circles who was caught and
convicted
>of
>>setting
>>pipe-bombs in public buildings. That's just among people I knew.
>>I'm not the only author who's had their fiction distorted like this, and
it
>makes
>>all of us want to
>>track the creeps responsible down and pound them into the ground like
tent
>pegs.
>>But WE are
>>adult, compassionate, responsible (there's that word again) human
beings,
>and we
>>know that
>>would be wrong. So we sit in our offices and get death- threats and
wonder
>which
>>one of these
>>loons is going to be THE one--- and if this time someone is going to get
>hurt.
>>It might be the
>>psycho himself, or it might be one of his followers who decides to show
up.
>Maybe
>>Aleister
>>Junior will egg one of his followers into buying a Saturday Night
Special
>and go
>>blaze away at a
>>book signing. Most of us writers are only partly worried about
>ourselves---because
>>maybe what
>>happens is an innocent fourteen- year-old flings herself into the line
of
>fire,
>>or is just standing there
>>getting a book signed, and becomes a statistic. How the hell do you
think
>we'd
>>feel about
>>THAT?
>>I can tell you that there are at least some writers---or the people left
>behind
>>(if it was the writer
>>who got toasted)---who wouldn't sit in their offices and wring their
hands
>afterwards.
>>They'd
>>track down the creep responsible, and for half an hour forget they were
>adult,
>>compassionate,
>>responsible human beings and turn him into a thin layer of red gel on
the
>concrete.
>>It would be
>>wrong, but that's what they'd do.
>>Want to make a judgement call on good and evil? Anyone who would be the
>instigator
>>of
>>something like that is hardly on the side of the angels. Anyone who
causes
>that
>>sort of disaster is
>>propagating the real evil in the world, not some poor hacks writing
>thrillers to
>>pay the mortgage.
>>So before your local wizard who claims to be a Guardian or one of the
Nine
>Unknown,
>>or the
>>leader of a Hunting Lodge gets you into anything deeper than some
joyful,
>joyfilled
>>celebrations
>>of life, compassion, and all that is right and good in the world---maybe
>you'd
>>better draw his
>>attention to that paragraph about the thin layer of red gel. Because
>sometimes,
>>boys and girls,
>>what you think is a striped worm turns out to be the tail of a tiger and
no
>magic
>>is required.
>>### Now, for all of you who are still with me, if you encounter any of
these
>people,
>>DO NOT
>>flame them, engage in arguments, post to their bulletin boards, or have
>anything
>>whatsoever to do
>>with them. If you meet them in the real world, DO NOT argue; just smile
and
>nod,
>>back away
>>slowly, and when their attention is taken away, RUN LIKE HELL. These are
>unpredictable
>>people, and they could decide that YOU are the embodiment of the great
evil
>that
>>is oppressing
>>them.
>>----------------------------------- End of message from Mercedes Lackey-
>>If you wish to write Mercedes concerning this post, you can contact her
via
>postal
>>mail:
>>Mercedes Lackey
>>P.O. Box 8309
>>Tulsa, OK 74101 USA
>>Notes from Firebird
>>Misty asked me to post this in our on line catalog after the latest
round of
>problems
>>with death
>>threats. Given that there is an ongoing investigation into this matter
by
>the FBI,
>>the amount that I
>>can say about it is limited.
>>What bothered Misty more than the possibility of getting shot, or Larry
>getting
>>shot, was the
>>vision of some 14 year old fan standing in line at a book signing,
getting
>into
>>the line of fire and
>>ending up dead or worse. I'll say it again: The idea that a fan of her
work
>could
>>end up in the
>>wrong place, at the wrong time and end up dead or worse is what is
driving
>the
>>"Last Straw"
>>letter.
>>For the record Misty and I have been friends for close to two decades.
She
>has
>>in that time
>>changed from working full time as a main frame programer for a large
>airline, to
>>a well respected
>>and successful writer in the fantasy world.
>>Once she achieved a certain level of visibility, something strange
started
>to happen.
>>Odd people
>>started crawling out of the woodwork. And some of these people were
very,
>very
>>odd. There
>>were the old so-called friends who could not stand her successes.
Vicious
>personal
>>attacks came
>>from people within Science Fiction & Filk fandoms. There were the SCA
>households
>>that
>>assumed that now that she had some books published, she was rich, and
should
>give
>>them funds
>>to run their extended households. And got angry when she said no. There
were
>the
>>fanfic writers
>>that wanted her to get them published, and got mad when she did not wave
her
>magic
>>wand and
>>get them the publishing contract of their dreams.
>>There was the real life tragedy that ended in a murder, suicide, and
nearly
>ended
>>up as a double
>>murder, suicide. This incident started when Misty and her husband Larry
>Dixon sheltered
>>a
>>woman escaping a bad marriage and her child. This episode included: pipe
>bombs,
>>people, (not
>>just the woman's ex-husband), keeping Misty's house under surveillance.
>People
>>with high
>>powered rifles being run off the property in the middle of the night.
Police
>that
>>would not take the
>>threats seriously. a unresponsive legal system, and a judge with
attitudes
>firmly
>>rooted in the
>>neolithic age. The nut case involved tried to kill his ex-wife, and the
>people
>>trying to help her. He
>>only managed to kill his two year old daughter and the shoot himself.
>Dixon sheltered
>>a
>>woman escaping a bad marriage and her child. This episode included: pipe
>bombs,
>>people, (not
>>just the woman's ex-husband), keeping Misty's house under surveillance.
>People
>>with high
>>powered rifles being run off the property in the middle of the night.
Police
>that
>>would not take the
>>threats seriously. a unresponsive legal system, and a judge with
attitudes
>firmly
>>rooted in the
>>neolithic age. The nut case involved tried to kill his ex-wife, and the
>people
>>trying to help her. He
>>only managed to kill his two year old daughter and the shoot himself.
hate
>mail
>>directed at
>>Misty. Once it was clear that these avenues were blocked, or at least
>ineffective,
>>some
>>enterprising souls started going after people close to Misty. They tried
to
>get
>>to her through
>>Larry, Firebird, family, and friends.
>>The problem is not SF fans, or pagans. The problem is with people who
have
>boundary
>>problems. People who are not real clear on where to draw the line
between
>their
>>own life, and
>>their favorite author's life. Most of Misty's fans are good caring
people,
>who
>>would never think of
>>stepping over the line. However, and this is a big however, there are
people
>out
>>there who are
>>incapable of recognizing where the lines are drawn. These people range
from
>annoying,
>>to the
>>truly deadly. And it is impossible to tell them apart.
>>This latest death threat is being taken seriously. It threatens Misty,
>Larry, and
>>anyone who is with
>>her. How would you like to be standing in line at a book signing when
the
>nut with
>>a gun or a
>>bomb shows up trying to take Misty out? What? It could never happen?
People
>don't
>>do that?
>>Remember the two year old that ended up with a bullet through her head?
Not
>a character
>>in one
>>of Misty's books. But a real world small child that lived under Misty &
Larry
>'s
>>roof, played with
>>their cats, pulled the tails of the parrots, and never hurt anyone in
her
>life.
>>A small child Misty and
>>Larry tried to protect. Dead. Brains splattered all over the crib. Too
>graphic
>>for you? You bet.
>>True? You bet. And it could be you next.
>>Is Misty angry? Yes, she's furious. Nuts out there have repeatedly
>threatened to
>>kill her, her
>>husband, their friends, and now the threat is to you, her fans. All over
a
>set
>>of characters in a
>>fantasy book.
>>Becoming a successful writer should not be equal to living in a war
zone.
>This
>>is the kind of
>>treatment fans are dishing out to many of your favorite authors. Crazy
fans
>are
>>making Misty's life
>>hell by projecting their own fantasies on her.
>>By all means buy Misty's books, her music, Larry's art work. Enjoy the
>products
>>of their
>>creativity. Empathize with the characters, and the life situations that
the
>characters
>>find themselves
>>in. But beware if you or anyone else starts confusing the characters
with
>the author.
>>. Do not give
>>the nut cases any more power. The single most important thing you can do
is
>avoid
>>these nuts.
>>Isolate them. Laugh at them from a distance. Don't let them into your
life.
>Don't
>>let yourself get
>>taken by some charismatic lunatic with murder on the mind. And run like
hell
>if
>>anyone tries to get
>>you to buy into their warped view of the universe.
>>Teri Lee
>>Firebird Music
>
Date: Thu, 03 Apr 97 07:27:48
From: "Skip, Josie, Julie, or Jenny"
To: FIRE
Subject: Re: FIRE Re: discussion: Catholics vs. Christians (vs. Lions?)
>>. . . Catholicism (sp?) usurped the position of first
>>Christian
>>denomination. According to her, the Baptists have that dubious honor. .
>.
>
>First of all, your spelling of Catholicism is correct. Secondly, where
>does your friend get her information? Having grown up Catholic, and
>having spent most of my school years in a parochial school, I had it
>pounded into me that Catholicism was *the first* Christian religion.
>Obviously, that information comes from a biased point of view. Anybody
>else have different views?
>>Firebird Music
>
Date: Thu, 03 Apr 97 07:27:48
From: "Skip, Josie, Julie, or Jenny"
To: FIRE
Subject: Re: FIRE Re: discussion: Catholics vs. Christians (vs. Lions?)
>>. . . Catholicism (sp?) usurped the position of first
>>Christian
>>denomination. According to her, the Baptists have that dubious honor. .
>.
>
>First of all, your spelling of Catholicism is correct. Secondly, where
>does your friend get her information? Having grown up Catholic, and
>having spent most of my school years in a parochial school, I had it
>pounded into me that Catholicism was *the first* Christian religion.
>Obviously, that information comes from a biased point of view. Anybody
>else have different views?
The Catholic church supposedly took its authority from an "unbroken"
line of appointment since Paul. Protestants, being unable to make
such a claim, had to find another sorce of authority for their
claims to be the "right" church, so they chose the Bible and
the spirit of God. The Mormon view is that the authority the
Catholic church claims to have is indeed necessary to be the
"true" church, but that it was "taken from the earth," due
to "unrighteousness," and needed to be "restored" in person by
the trinity "in the Latter Day." Mormons, therefore, do not
call themselves "protestants," as they are not "protesting"
anything, but the "restored" church of Jesus Christ.
> (Now, wait a minute! We're supposed to be
>talking about Wicca, Paganism, and all that other stuff! I hope all you
>others out there will be patient during this conversation.)
As this is an activist/defense group, personally, I think it's a
good idea to know a reasonable amount about where people who
was the idea behind David's and my discussion on the
origins of the current RW influence, though it got *way
out of hand .
>>. . . (I have no life....)
>
>You and me, both, Sister!
Somebody out there has a *life! I am *so jealous.
> Unfortunately, I'm not in the Denver area.
>Quite some space distant from it, as a matter of fact. Good luck on
>getting your gathering together.
We moved out here from Boulder/Denver and really miss it. Is it snowing
out there ?
Date: Thu, 03 Apr 97 07:45:36
From: "Skip, Josie, Julie, or Jenny"
To: FIRE
Subject: Re: FIRE: dIscussion: Paradise Lost
>So you're Mother Goose at the Georgia Renn Fest? Cool. I'll warn you
>before introducing myself when I go. (How is the new facility?).
It's *huge, and well-designed. It's going to fun to work.
>Sorry all for the non-Pagan content. I won't do it again.
There are lots of Pagan elements at the GARF . Ma Goose,
as I play her, is a water sprite, and my own inner workings
key off of the concept of the "Sybil" being driven underground
by Christian persecution, yet preserving the pagan world
view through her storytelling. I have to be very careful
about what I actually *say, this being the Bible Belt,
but I can think what I want, and, when I connect with
a like soul ( of which there are many working at the
GARF and attending it) it's a lovely thing.
Date: Thu, 3 Apr 1997 07:56:36 -0500
From: John Yohalem
To: FIRE
Subject: Re: article Re: Celtic/Pagan/Witch/Druid Bashing
[The following text is in the "ISO-8859-1" character set]
[Your display is set for the "US-ASCII" character set]
[Some characters may be displayed incorrectly]
John Brightshadow Yohalem
enchante@escape.com
"Sometimes I feel discriminated against, but it does not make me angry. It
merely astonishes me. How *can* any deny themselves the pleasure of my
company?"
-- Zora Neale Hurston
<[}xxxxxx{]::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::>
----------
> On Wed, 2 Apr 1997, John Pearce wrote:
>
> > Did you actually read the article? I only read the first paragraph,
> > but it was enough to convince me that the *article* itself was not
> > witch-bashing:
> >
> > "It was clear to me, however, that magic, God, and a belief that one
> > belongs on a different planet fit into the same category of knowledge.
>
> That, and everything before it, sounded very witch-bashy.
>
> > [snip] Just because a belief in magic seems more implausible than a
> > belief in God, and belief in space aliens more implausible still, you
> > don't have the luxury of saying that the act of believing in one is
> > fundamentally different from the act of believing in another."
> > (from "Why entering a cult is comforting and feels a lot like joining
> > a religion" BY TANYA LUHRMANN)
>
> She does say that, but the article spends so much time, IMHO, detailing
> how witchcraft is a cult or how it is just like a cult that it's
treading
> a very thin line.
What Luhrmann is saying (subtly, perhaps, so as to avoid fundie hostility)
is that any religious faith will, reduced to its essentials, turn out to
be
based on irrational assumptions, as the rational tends to be defined in
our
culture. And that Wicca and High Magic are no more irrational than any
other faith.
Which is true. But whom does it bash?
However: read her book. Excellent (if mighty dry).
Date: Thu, 3 Apr 1997 07:59:35 -0600 (CST)
From: Steve Horvath
To: FIRE
Subject: Re: FIRE Re: discussion: Catholics vs. Christians (vs. Lions?)
On Wed, 2 Apr 1997, FIRE wrote:
>
> First of all, your spelling of Catholicism is correct. Secondly, where
> does your friend get her information? Having grown up Catholic, and
> having spent most of my school years in a parochial school, I had it
> pounded into me that Catholicism was *the first* Christian religion.
> Obviously, that information comes from a biased point of view. Anybody
> else have different views? (Now, wait a minute! We're supposed to be
> talking about Wicca, Paganism, and all that other stuff! I hope all you
> others out there will be patient during this conversation.)
>
Hello,
I also grew up Catholic; spent 12 years in their sanctioned
Archdiocese acadamies here in the Chicago area. I recall priests telling
us how wrong all the *other* religions were, and that Christ himself thru
Peter (first Pope) created the Catholic church. Of course that's not
quite how it happened according to other Christian denoms. Evangelicals
will state that theirs is the true christianity, and that Roman
Catholicism was created on behalf of Constantine's request to make it the
official religion of the Roman Empire. Hence all the garments, pomp,
ceremony, etc associated with it. Earlier Christians were more of a
ragtag bunch, seen more in the light of troublesome than anytrhing else.
Constantine seized upon the growing influence of Christianity and
basically refined it socially and renamed it Roman Catholicism.
Do I believe Christianity and catholicism are the same? Not a chance.
IMHO, Catholicism is a major corporate entity that is corrupt beyond
belief. That's not to say I think Fundamentalism is any better in that
regard (ie. Jim Baker, etc.) But I do think that true fundamentalism,
esp. Pentecostal beliefs, are the closest to biblical teachings.
Just my $.02. I know this isn't the place, so if someone wants to chat
offlist about it- feel free to mail me.
Steve
Date: Thu, 3 Apr 1997 09:05:38 -0500 (EST)
From: Elizabeth Ellen Ehrlich
To: FIRE
Subject: Re: FIRE digest 2, april 2nd
Well met, I am new here so I thought I would introduce myself. My name is
Beth, but I go by Morgaine quite a lot. I have been studying for 4 years
now and I cannot rightly say what trad I am due to the fact that I have
either not found just one for me, or that I use what seems natural.
Anyway,
I have been enjoying the discussions so far and have not responded yet,
but
definitely plan to. (I was going to say more...but...:))
Fare thee well and Brightest Blessings
Morgaine
Date: Thu, 03 Apr 1997 10:15:39 -0400 (EDT)
From: "David R. Burwasser"
To: FIRE
Subject: Re: FIRE: action/article Re: Celtic/Pagan/Witch/Druid Bashing
Re John Pearce's comments, FIRE wrote:
> Then there was this article in the same issue:
We have to judge the Luhrmann article binocularly -- on its own, as
though it were not in that issue of _US News_ and not written right after
the San Deigo suicides and did not have the headline and blurbs attached;
and then in the context of those things.
This is simple fairness to the author, because those other elements
(including when one gets the assignment) are the choices of editors, and
the author should not be held to account for them.
We need to make both judgements because we are affected by what is said
about our religion(s) in that total context. But judgement on the author
is a subset of that.
Blessed be,
Dave Burwasser
Date: Thu, 3 Apr 1997 07:20:00 -1000 (HST)
From: alywn@aloha.net
To: Sarah E Elsbernd , cuups-usa@efn.org
Cc: danica@mills.edu
Subject: Re: waahh
Well, you could paint one with flourescent red paint on your forehead!
LOL, alywn
At 03:41 PM 4/2/97 -0500, Sarah E Elsbernd wrote:
>Hey all,
>
>I just wanted to share something that I think ya'll will get a kick out
>of.
>
>Today, I happily wore my pentagram to work (for the third day in a row)
>anticipating eagerly some sort of verbal bout with a fellow co-worker.
>
>He's a very enthusiastic Baptist who believes the Pope is the
>anti-christ...and I've heard some strange stories from other co-workers
>about this fellow.
>
>I armed myself this morning with a shield and intelligent verbal
arguments
>only to find that throughout my entire 4 hour shift with him, despite the
>many times he commanded my attention...he NEVER NOTICED my pentagram!!
>
>What's a girl have to do?
>
>I found I had to laugh at myself and I pass the story on to everyone so
>that you can laugh at me as well!
>
>May you all have a great day!
>
>Bright Blessings all around.
>Ripples
Date: Thu, 3 Apr 1997 12:02:00 -0800
From: "Bush, Lori, GSA-Info Sys"
To: FIRE
Subject: PBS SERIES
Hey was I the only one to watch any of the PBS Series With God On Our
Side? I surely hope not!
Because I call myself Christian, and have a live and let live
philosophies on other religions I automatically assumed that most other
Christians did too. But after watching the episode I did, I found out I
was wrong. Totally wrong. And it scared the poop out of me to say the
least.
If anyone is interested in and needs a pretty non biased overview of
The RR and their agenda, I recommend the series. I'm assuming that they
treated the rest of the RR the way they treated Ralph Reed and his
group.
Peace
Lori
Date: Thu, 3 Apr 1997 17:28:51 -0500 (EST)
From: Sarah E Elsbernd
To: cuups-usa@efn.org
Cc: danica@mills.edu
Subject: Re: waahh (fwd)
__________________________
There are more views of life than mine, and the
ones I think most wrong are sometimes the very ones
I am eventually forced to adopt myself...I'm not as
quick to judge others as I used to be.
--Morgan LLywelyn, "Grania She-King of the Irish Seas
---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Thu, 3 Apr 1997 17:09:19 -0500 (EST)
From: Sarah E Elsbernd
To: dave andersen
Cc: "LIST: cuups-u-d"
Subject: Re: waahh
On Thu, 3 Apr 1997, dave andersen wrote:
> I'm still trying to figure out *why* you'd want someone to notice your
> pentagram. I keep mind inside my shirt. Occasionally someone might
Because I've finally gotten past the negative programming I was carrying
and now I wear it proudly. I live my life as a Witch openly. I don't
feel the need to wear it under my shirt to hide it as I used to. Yes, my
religion is a very personal thing to me. I don't care to 'recruit'
anyone. I'm proudly wearing my pentagram without the fear or
uncomfortableness I experienced before. This is a very very new
experience for me.
As I said in a different letter, which I'm not sure you got (don't
remember what email list I sent it to.) I tend to get angry and loose
control of my feelings when I see a street preacher yelling insults at
everyone who passes by. I wanted to test myself against my co-worker
because if the situation goes badly I won't be loosing a friend. However,
I wanted to practice for equally sticky situations in which I was talking
to someone I cared about...ie my brothers, my in-laws, or my grandparents.
I figured if I messed up with my co-worker it wouldn't be as bad as
messing up with someone I care about. But in the process I learned my
lesson: I waste too much time worrying about and plotting possible
scenarios. I had hoped to convey the humor of the situation to all of
you, my email friends.
I want everyone to understand. I'm not recruiting, I'm not coming out.
But for the first time since I started on my path, I was free of the
negative programing I had recieved through my life. (oh, I've been out
about my witchiness since I first realized there were others who held
similar beliefs to mine. I've just been worried that I was going to end
up in a really bad situation with someone yelling at me that I was
satanic.) This scenario with my co-worker showed me that I'm needlessly
worrying.
I just wanted to share a laugh with everyone.
__________________________
There are more views of life than mine, and the
ones I think most wrong are sometimes the very ones
I am eventually forced to adopt myself...I'm not as
quick to judge others as I used to be.
--Morgan LLywelyn, "Grania She-King of the Irish Seas
Date: Wed, 02 Apr 1997 11:53:53 -0500
From: Lowell & Nancy McFarland
To: FIRE
Cc: mcfarlan@mail1.nai.net, Lisette.Burwasser@oberlin.edu
Subject: Re: Celtic/Pagan/Witch/Druid Bashing
We are encouraged by the Pagan community's interest in
Pagan Bashing in the media, "Net Nanny" censoring of Pagan
Web Sites, inaccurately tieing Pagans with cults, etc.
However,it is a slow process.
Two Samhain's ago, we were part of a Celtic effort concerning
the proposed cancellation of Halloween because of its Pagan/Celtic
origins at two school districts.
Members of both the Los Altos, CA., and Bedford, NY., school
administrations told me that they were surprised to get such a
response from Celts and Druids who "...no longer existed!"
Samhain/Halloween was celebrated in 1995 and 1996 at both schools.
We are also encouraged by the speed and thoroughness of getting
information out to the Pagan community that FIRE and other hard
working groups are doing through the Internet.
Soon, with enough e-mails and letters to the media, the media
may soon start using Pagans to write articles about Pagans
rather than using pickup anthropological dissertations.
Thank you FIRE, and all the FIREPEOPLE.
Loch Sloy!
Lowell & Nancy McFarland mcfarlan@ct1.nai.net
Date: Thu, 3 Apr 1997 18:21:07 -0500 (EST)
From: Cecylyna Brightsword
To: FIRE
Subject: Re: Article: To the FIRE List: REALITY CHECK (Was Fwd: Misty
Letter)
> Date: Thu, 3 Apr 1997 06:09:34 -0600 (CST)
> From: Christina Van Spoor
> To: danica@mills.edu
> Subject: To the FIRE List: REALITY CHECK (Was Fwd: Misty Letter)
>
> I was sent this by a friend. Needless to say it offends about damned
near
> everyone in the Pagan Community. To be certain, reality bites boys and
> girls and if you get offended, chances are there was a nerve struck in
> there............somewhere.
>
> I always thought living between the worlds never meant you had to give
up
> reality.
>
Doesn't offend me - I'm just sorry some twinks have done enough threats
to make her feel like she had to write this. That really makes us look
good (not). SIGH. Humans. :)
Bright blessings,
Cecylyna Brightsword..................................Suzanne Egbert
HPS, Thalia Clan * Mommybeing * Computer geek
http://www.oocities.org/Athens/9802/indiana.html
The Indiana Pagan Resources Page
Date: Thu, 3 Apr 1997 18:01:55 -0600
From: Jeannette Waldie
To: FIRE
Subject: Re: Article: To the FIRE List: REALITY CHECK (Was Fwd: Misty Let
On 3 Apr 97 at 15:06, FIRE wrote:
> Date: Thu, 3 Apr 1997 06:09:34 -0600 (CST)
> From: Christina Van Spoor
> To: danica@mills.edu
> Subject: To the FIRE List: REALITY CHECK (Was Fwd: Misty Letter)
>
> I was sent this by a friend. Needless to say it offends about
> damned near everyone in the Pagan Community. To be certain,
> reality bites boys and girls and if you get offended, chances are
> there was a nerve struck in there............somewhere.
>
> I always thought living between the worlds never meant you had to
> give up reality.
>
>
>
> Xina
I'm surprised such a letter hasn't been written before now! Pagans
forget that such writers write fiction. If it is good, it will
create the impression of magic, such as "Mists of Avalon" by Marion
Zimmerman Bradley (who has experienced problems with unreal fans
too and is wishing the pagan community would just leave her alone.)
Just because an author has a witch as a character in a book, or a
songwriter writes a song that has a pagan theme, doesn't mean they
have secret knowledge, doesn't mean they are God(dess), doesn't mean
anything. It doesn't even mean they are pagan. They just as likely
aren't.
But all of you already know that probably, or you wouldn't be on this
list! :>)
Brighest Blessings,
Jeannette K. Waldie
jwaldie@ghg.net
http://www.ghg.net/jwaldie
Date: Thu, 03 Apr 1997 21:08:11 -0400 (EDT)
From: "David R. Burwasser"
To: FIRE
Subject: Re: FIRE: article: Heavengate
On Thu, 3 Apr 1997, FIRE wrote:
> Date: Mon, 31 Mar 1997 06:26:42 -0800
> From: Richard Kinz
> To: rakalmarie@aol.com, stcaria@neuheim.ucdavis.edu, Devaster@aol.com,
> MCCAFFEB@WABASH.EDU, edgould@ibm.net, mycues@tcsn.net,
> thomrick@flash.net, danica@mills.edu, bryan.blumberg@macsch.com,
> gary@min.netbsuvc.bsu.edu, bizet@tde.com,
> DWhite6941@aol.com, JJG2%CTS%DCPP@go50.comp.pge.com, Tario@mcn.net
> Subject: Heavengate
>
> NEWS YOU DIDN'T SEE ON TV 3/29/97
> Commentary by Patricia Nell Warren
>
> HEAVENGATE
> By Patricia Nell Warren
Egad! A journalist with a sense of history!
Fine article.
BB -- dB
Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 00:30:47 -0500 (EST)
From: AngloCelt@aol.com
To: danica@mills.edu
Subject: Re: FIRE: action/article Re: Celtic/Pagan/Witch/Druid Bashing
I am a Pagan gnostic, and so many times do people get me confused with a
American Christian-Protestant, I am glad people are realizing the truth.
B*B
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