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Date: Fri, 4 Apr 97 06:52:17 -0800
From: Morgaine LaFey
To: danica@mills.edu
Subject: Re: discussion Re: Article: To the FIRE List: REALITY CHECK (Was
Fwd:
Misty Lette
I have read many of Mercedes Lackey's books (and even own all three
Tregarde
Investigations). She is a very talented writer, to be sure. I do know
the
difference between fact and fiction, of course, and I'm saddened that Ms.
Lackey and her family have suffered because of those who don't.
Bright blessings,
Morgaine LaFey Dragonsflame
ERAL Liaison to FIRE and GOL Witchcraft Conference
ERLAN Member
Date: Fri, 04 Apr 97 00:45:36
From: "Skip, Josie, Julie, or Jenny"
To: FIRE
Subject: Re: FIRE: discussion: Re: waahh
Sarah, you're alright. You have a really amazing
life ahead of you. I like you alot.
Josie
Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 08:54:42 -0800 (PST)
From: Milieu
To: FIRE
Subject: Re: FIRE: action alert: Celtic/Pagan/Witch Bashing in the Media
A
>Pagan Bashing and tieing Pagans to the Christian Heaven's Gate
>suicidals and other dangerous cults continues in the media with
>US News and World Report doing a related story to their Heaven's Gate
>cover story, entitled -
>"Witches, Magic, Ordinary Folks - Why entering a cult is
>conforting and feels like a religion."
>http://www.usnews.com/usnews/issue/970407/7witc.htm
The problem with U.S. News and World Report is that they are flying with
only ONE WING. The RIGHT one. If they had a Left Wing, they might be a
bit more balanced. I've told them this, but they haven't paid any
attention to me.
: )
A.
Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 13:04:58 +0000
From: rstetak@nemesis.cyberdrive.net
To: FIRE
Subject: TV: CNET - upcoming
Rec'd this in the CNET Digest today.....warrants watching:
3. CNET TV: CULTS ONLINE; GAMEWORKS; AND REBA MCENTIRE
What was the real connection between the Heaven's Gate cult and
the Web? This week, "CNET Central" cuts through the mass-media
hysteria and explores the cyber/cult connection.
Bb Ruthann
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Walk in Balance
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = == = = = = = = = =
rstetak@cybergate.net
Date: Fri, 04 Apr 1997 10:33:13 PST
From: James Baker
To: danica@mills.edu
Subject: Re: FIRE: Discussion: Fox's Buffy The Vampire Slayer
>Date: Sat, 29 Mar 1997 12:47:58 -0800 (PST)
>From: FIRE
>To: "Danica M. Nuccitelli"
>Subject: Re: FIRE: Discussion: Fox's Buffy The Vampire Slayer
>
>> Can anyone cite a written example of the word wicca being used in
a
>> religious context prior to Gardner? Or the use of witchcraft to
describe a
>> religion prior to Leland?
>
>I found this at
>http://www.infidels.org/library/historical/joseph_mccabe/religious_controversy
/
chapter_22.html
>[emphasis in asterisks mine.]
>
>---
>At the end of the tenth century Abbot Regino made a large
>collection of Church laws and canons, and one of these is
>concerned with witches. Where and when this canon was passed
>we do not know. Some scholars trace it to the Synod of Ancyra,
>in 314, which is impossible, for the Roman world was then
>almost entirely pagan. It seems to come from some synod of the
>sixth century. It says:
>
>"And we must not overlook this, that certain wicked women,
>who have turned aside to Satan, seduced by the illusions and
>phantasms of the demons, believe and profess that during the
>night they ride with *Diana the goddess of the pagans* [another
>version says, or with Herodias] and an innumerable crowd of
>women on certain beasts, and pass over great spaces of the earth
>during the night, obeying her commands as their mistress, and
>on certain nights are summoned to her service. Would that these
>had perished in their perfidy and had not dragged many with
>them to destruction! For an innumerable multitude, deceived by
>this false opinion, believe that these things are true and so depart
>from the faith and fall into the error of the pagans, *believing that
>there is some divinity apart from the one God,* (Migne edition.)
Thanks. I had read this before but it had sliped my mind. Still, it's
not
exactly what I meant. It's more a case of the usual pejoritive word,
witch,
being applyed to some of the surviving pagan sects by outsiders. (I don't
think
it's going to far out on a limb to suggest that there were still some
people
practicing the pre-Xtian religions AS religions as late as the 6th
century.
>A life of Pope Damasus (of the fourth century) pretends that as
>early as 367 a Roman synod took cognizance of these women
>who rode on beasts at night with Herodias. This life is probably
>spurious, but it is clear that by the sixth century (to which the
>canon seems to belong) there was something very like organized
>witchcraft in Europe. We will not press the words "innumerable
>multitude," but clearly numbers of women met by night to honor
>Diana, the goddess of the moon and of fertility."
I think it suggests less that an organized Witchcraft was forming,
than
that some of what the church was calling witchcraft was made up of pagan
survivals. It certainly doesn't suggest that anyone was calling themselves
Witches.
---------------------------------------------------------
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Date: Fri, 04 Apr 1997 10:50:42 PST
From: James Baker
To: danica@mills.edu
Subject: Re: FIRE: discussion: Discordian
>MY first and only real exposure to the term "Discordian" comes from a
book
>called "The Illuminatus! Trilogy" but Robert Shea and Robert Anton
Wilson.
>Wilson also wrote another book called "The Cosmic Trigger" which covers
the
>same material in a less fantastical manner. My copy of Illuminatus! is
>published by Dell in 1984, but the original book(s) were published in the
>late '70s. You'll find them in a good used book store (my favorite
kind!)
>or a store that specializes in metaphysical mumbo jumbo. The subjects in
>the afore mentioned books are entertaining to the chronically paranoid,
and
>I've always enjoyed paranoid literature - seems to justify my own
>existence, if you take my meaning.
>
>I believe (but do not necessarily have the facts correctly organized)
that
>Discordians are interested in the chaos factors at work around us. I
>didn't know anyone was actually DOING it, I just gleaned the information
>from the books I've mentioned. Check them out and let me know if I've
got
>it wrong.
You may also want to check out the Discordian "Holy Book"- Principia
Discordia written (under divine insperation, 'natch) by Greg Hill & Kerry
Thornly. It's avalable from several publishers, but please buy the one
from
IllumeNet Press (purple cover) as that's the only one that the authers see
any
money from. (Greg & Kerry are Anarchists, and don't belive in copyrighting
there
work)
Date: Fri, 04 Apr 1997 11:13:13 PST
From: James Baker
To: danica@mills.edu
Subject: Re: FIRE: action: Re: ERAL: Possible defamation of online Pagans
>Date: Sun, 30 Mar 1997 01:52:52 -0500
>From: John Yohalem
>To: FIRE
>Subject: Re: FIRE: article/discussion:Fwd: Re: ERAL: Possible defamation
of
online Pagans
>
>> SAN FRANCISCO (CNN) -- Internet writer Erik Davis says the Internet by
>it=
>> s
>> nature seems infinite and ethereal, almost a deity in itself.=20
>>
>> "In many ways we're sort of creating a 'deus ex machina,' a great
machine
>> that is penetrating and connecting in with more and more of our lives.
In
>> that sense there's something like a terrestrial god about it," he
>said.=20
>>
>> But he and other experts fear that this infinite and ethereal place has
>> become the new location of choice for cult recruiters. Its god-like
>> appearance is deceptive, and can be dangerous, especially in the hands
of
>> often-naive Web users.=20
>> Writer Davis also warns of the dangers facing so called
"Techno-Pagans,"
>> those who ascribe too much power to what they find on the Internet.
>"It's=
>> --
>> in a certain sense -- the ultimate technology," he said. "At the same
>tim=
>> e it
>> resurrects sort of an older feeling about liberation from the body,
about
>> moving into a kind of virtual fantasy land."=20
>
>I can't help noticing that they have snipped and rearranged whatever it
is
>Erik said. To my knowledge, he has long been a writer about
non-mainstream
>spiritualities, and has been nothing but friendly towards Neo-Pagans and
>Witches. I suspect he has been misquoted or rearranged, and I shall call
>him and find out.
It seems to me that Mr. Davis is just trying to coin a new term for
the
growing number of people for whom the internet and related technology is
developing a spiritual force all it's own (as opposed to those who use it
to
learn about and talk about spirituality). i.e. Techno-pagan does not equal
a
Neo-Pagan who uses a computer; but is instead in a seperate class
alltogether
(though there may be some overlap)
Also, on rereading the above, I'm not sure Mr. Davis is being hostile
to
the Techno-Pagans, simply pointing out potental pitfalls along a very new
and
little explored path.
Date: Fri, 04 Apr 1997 11:54:13 PST
From: James Baker
To: danica@mills.edu
Subject: Re: FIRE: discussion: witch witch was witch
>Date: Tue, 1 Apr 1997 12:02:36 -0500
>From: John Yohalem
>To: FIRE
>Subject: Re: FIRE: discussion: witch witch was witch
>
>They used the Hebrew and the Greek for their translation, of which they
>were rightly very proud -- it's a gorgeous piece of literature, whatever
>else it was. Details on the meanings of all the words used for witch and
>user of magic in the Hebrew Bible, the Septuagint (Greek trans.), the New
>Testament, the Vulgate (Latin trans. by St. Jerome) and many other
>translations can be found in an article by Alexei Kondratiev (who reads
all
>these languages), "Suffer a Witch to Live", published in issue #18 of
>Enchante: The Journal for the Urbane Pagan. The issue is available for $5
>from me (editor, publisher): John Yohalem, PO Box 735, NY NY 10014. Yeah,
>I'm advertising, but it's a terrific article. He goes into all the
politics
>behind certain choices of word, and he discusses the uses of magical acts
>by cultures in various eras of history.
As someone with no editorial or financial stake in Enchante,let me
second
the recomendation of this article. I've found myself refering to it many
times;
causing all my friends to think I'm oh so well read and educated. ;)
>However hysterical James became, it is a historical fact that a
>Satan-worshiping coven of Scottish witches led by the 6th earl of
Bothwell
>(nephew of James's mother's lover) attempted on two occasions to murder
the
>king, and were generally believed to have practiced black magic against
him
>as well. It's a case of witches who did not live by the rede, and James
may
>be forgiven going overboard and not believing any witches were other than
>Satanic, under the circumstances.
>Read a bio of James before you denounce him out of hand. He suffers
perhaps
>because he was the widest-ranging and most indefatiguable author among
all
>British monarchs. (He also wrote a denunciation of tobacco.) As a king
who
>believed in making peace, not war, and who never did make a war in all
his
>long reign (58 years in Scotland, 22 in England), he deserves a certain
>amount of respect. And he could read Hebrew and Greek, too.
That's interesting. I never knew all that (and what with me being all
oh
so
well read and educated and all). Can you recomend a good Bio?
---------------------------------------------------------
Get Your *Web-Based* Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
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Date: Fri, 04 Apr 1997 12:01:21 -0800
From: Deborah Snavely
To: danica@mills.edu
Subject: Today show transcript URL
Here's the transcript URL for the Today show (March 28, not 29 as the
FIRE web site says):
http://207.68.146.43:80/onair/nbc/today/trans/1997/mar/mar2897.asp
Deborah
Date: Fri, 04 Apr 1997 12:16:14 PST
From: James Baker
To: danica@mills.edu
Subject: Re: FIRE: discussion:Do not forget the Gnostics.
>Date: Tue, 1 Apr 1997 21:08:56 -0500 (EST)
>From: AngloCelt@aol.com
>To: danica@mills.edu
>Cc: AngloCelt@aol.com
>Subject: Do not forget the Gnostics.
>
> The French Gnostic Catholic Church, even though It appears
>christian, It is very Much a peaceful Pagan- Christian Blend. It Puts
main
>emphasis on jesus, but that does not necsarily make them the kind of
>Christians you are used to, I feel they are very much pagan, in Fact, the
>Arch-Bishop of Chicago in my Diocese is a Druid!
>they celebrate the Solstices and Esbats, the Equinoxes and so on. The
Word
> Gnostic is anchient Greek for "Knowlege" it is a very
>Beautiful Religion. Women are indeed allowed to be priestesses, and Male
and
>female Priest(s/esses) are indeed allowed to be married.
> I do implore you to add the Gnostics to your List, it has
been a
>Haven for my communities pagan population for many years. they have no
>connections with the roman Catholic Churches at all, in fact the pope
sent
>out a decree saying that Gnostics where the true"heretics".
> Remember We as Pagans believe in acceptance and tolerance, do
not
>be blinded by their belief in Jesus, for at Church Last Friday they
featured
>a sermon on "the holy Readings from the goddess and Gods" incorperating
>Celtic, Norse, Greek etc. gods from many Paths, the readings are
respected as
>Holy Words from the Divine.
>I would Like to hear back with any information on what you can do to help
>incorperate this Honorable and Peaceful religion.
>M*P
>Rev. Bob McDonald (Coven of Belenos,
> St. Mary Magdeline Parish)
In addition to the French, there are several other groups going under
the
name Gnostic Catholic Church, some more Pagan than others.
I myself am a priest of an incarnation of the Gnostic Church
(decended
from
the French through Papus) that is wholly Neo-Pagan and Thelemic. As a
mater of
fact, It was from our Mass that Gerald Gardner derived much of his
material,
including the origanal Charge of the Goddess, and the Gardnarian 3rd
degree
initiation.
BTW, are you familiar with Bishop Bertioux there in Chicago. He's
Patriarch
of yet another Gnostic Church. His magical writings are really worth
reading.
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Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 16:56:55 -0500 (EST)
From: Sarah E Elsbernd
To: FIRE
Subject: Re: FIRE: article: Heavengate
Patricia Neal Warren! What a woman! What an article!
Whee!
Ripples
______________________________________________________
Date: Fri, 04 Apr 97 18:08:44
From: "Skip, Josie, Julie, or Jenny"
To: FIRE mailing list
Subject: FIRE: dIscussion: Paradise Lost
Paradise Lost plays:
Friday-Thursday, April 4-10
at Cinefest at GSU,
66 Courtland Ave. Second floor.
(404)651-CINE
BTW Showtimes are: Fri-Sat:12:30,3:15,6:O0 and 9:00pm
Mon-Thu:8:00pm
*
* * *
* * *
* * *
* * * * Ad Astra * * * *
* * *
* * *
* * *
*
Date: Sat, 5 Apr 1997 15:20:42 -0500
From: John Yohalem
To: FIRE
Subject: witchcraft in Russia -- from the NY Times
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A front page article in today's (Apr. 5) NY Times, available on the web at
www.nytimes.com, beginning with a description of a murder caused by "black
magic" in a small Russian town, details belief in the supernatural in
general throughout Russia. Needless to say, the writer takes a lofty view,
that this is the deplorable consequence of a lack of "real" religion in
people's lives (there was so much less superstition in the days of the
tsars and Rasputin, you know), but much of the info on today's Russia is
fascinating. Strongly recommended. Below are some excerpts I thought would
particularly interest readers on the
One of Moscow's, and the nation's, most popular weekly television
programs,
"The Third Eye," whose engaging host is Mikhail Andreyev, the president of
the Association of White Magicians, is a straight, factual discussion of
how sorcery and witchcraft can improve one's daily life. (Last week's show
featured a lesson in how to "protect your house with the aid of an
ordinary
needle, and how to use a big tailor's needle to cast special spells.")
"Major national newspapers advertise the services of clairvoyants, witches
and warlocks every day. Well-trained doctors at respected hospitals see
nothing unusual in recommending that their patients take a trip to a
"babka," an old woman with the power to heal. Until late last year, Gen.
Georgi Rogozin was in charge of a team of Kremlin staff astrologers whose
sole job was to help guide President Boris Yeltsin in making decisions.
'"We have had in this country a very long period of total absence of
spiritual education, areaders on these lists:
"At times Russia seems governed as much by superstition as by democracy.
Russians. "People have lost their spiritual immunity to resist evil. They
have become confused and they often have trouble knowing what is good and
bad."
"Asked if beliefs in witchcraft were more prevalent in remote, rural
areas,
Bulekov said no.
'"We witness it far more often in the cities," he said. "In villages the
old attitudes toward the church are still alive and immunity against evil
is better preserved." "
John Brightshadow Yohalem
enchante@escape.com
Date: Sun, 06 Apr 1997 21:16:02 -0400 (EDT)
From: "David R. Burwasser"
To: FIRE
Cc: zburwasser
Subject: Re: discussion: Re: FIRE: action alert: Celtic/Pagan/Witch
Bashing in
the Media
Something odd, or at least interesting.
What we've heard on this list about this topic re: Heaven's Gate has been
about a few TV shows and one print newsweekly widely regarded as
conservative. I get the Cleveland _Plain Dealer_ daily & Sunday, and my
in-laws hand off the Sunday _New York Times_ to me a week after
publication, and I see almost nothing of this in those media.
One syndicated conservative columnist in the _PD_ (Tony Snow, a known
lardhead) made a passing reference to "pagan" content in Heaven's Gate's
stuff, but even that was in a laundry list of the mixed HG bag and
"Christian" came earlier on the list.
Coverage in _NYT_ said nothing about Pagans, and two opinion pieces
chided those who were making a monster out of the 'Net. One of the
latter was by an opinionator clearly hostile to new religious movements
-- new = phoney in his book (so Christianity was phoney during Jesus' and
Paul's lifetimes? oh, well) -- but he did not try to blame Pagans for
Christian screwballs, and he vehemently rebutted any idea that the 'Net
was to blame for the Rancho Santa Fe joint exit.
But for the _US News_ "coverage" I would write this off to the relative
literacy of print vs broadcast journalists (oh, you already noticed a
certain attitude on that point? Gave myself away again, eh). Does anyone
on the list know what slant _Time_, _Newsweek_, _Washington Post_ or _LA
Times_ took on the religious identity of Heaven's Gate? Or the role of
minor/new religions on the American faith scene?
Blessed be,
Dave Burwasser
PS: I don't surf, so www.whatever responses will leave me ignorant. (With
the horse & buggy setup I deal with, I barely email.) BB -- dB
Date: Sun, 6 Apr 1997 20:55:53 -0400
From: John Yohalem
To: FIRE , jamesbaker@hotmail.com
Subject: Re: FIRE: discussion: witch witch was witch
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> >However hysterical James VI and I became, it is a historical fact that
a
> >Satan-worshiping coven of Scottish witches led by the 6th earl of
Bothwell
> >(nephew of James's mother's lover) attempted on two occasions to murder
the
> >king, and were generally believed to have practiced black magic against
him
> >as well. It's a case of witches who did not live by the rede, and James
may
> >be forgiven going overboard and not believing any witches were other
than
> >Satanic, under the circumstances.
> >Read a bio of James before you denounce him out of hand. He suffers
perhaps
> >because he was the widest-ranging and most indefatiguable author among
all
> >British monarchs. (He also wrote a denunciation of tobacco.) As a king
who
> >believed in making peace, not war, and who never did make a war in all
his
> >long reign (58 years in Scotland, 22 in England), he deserves a certain
> >amount of respect. And he could read Hebrew and Greek, too.
>
> That's interesting. I never knew all that (and what with me being
all oh so
> well read and educated and all). Can you recomend a good Bio?
I have a very good one from 1958, "The Wisest Fool in Christendom" by
William McElwee. Undoubtedly out of print, but perhaps in some libraries.
JY
Date: Sun, 6 Apr 1997 21:01:18 -0400
From: John Yohalem
To: FIRE
Subject: Re: FIRE: discussion:Do not forget the Gnostics.
[The following text is in the "ISO-8859-1" character set]
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John Brightshadow Yohalem
enchante@escape.com
"Sometimes I feel discriminated against, but it does not make me angry. It
merely astonishes me. How *can* any deny themselves the pleasure of my
company?"
-- Zora Neale Hurston
<[}xxxxxx{]::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::>
----------
> > The French Gnostic Catholic Church, even though It appears
> >christian, It is very Much a peaceful Pagan- Christian Blend. It Puts
main
> >emphasis on jesus, but that does not necsarily make them the kind of
> >Christians you are used to, I feel they are very much pagan, in Fact,
the
> >Arch-Bishop of Chicago in my Diocese is a Druid!
I have great difficulties with this. Do they believe "Jesus died to redeem
our sins" or that "There is no way to the Father but through him"? If so,
they are Christian, not Pagan in any sense that I call myself one, and I
couldn't accept them as fellow Pagans.
Also, what on earth do you mean Gerald Gardner derived the "original
Charge
of the Goddess" from the French Gnostic mass? THere is a good deal of
Crowley material in the Charge, but did he get it from the Gnostic
Church,
or did he write it for that church?
Brightshadow
Date: Sun, 6 Apr 1997 19:01:09 -0700 (PDT)
From: FIRE
To: "Danica M. Nuccitelli"
Subject: Re: discussion: Re: FIRE: action alert: Celtic/Pagan/Witch
Bashing in
the Media
On Sun, 6 Apr 1997, David R. Burwasser wrote:
[snip]
> But for the _US News_ "coverage" I would write this off to the relative
> literacy of print vs broadcast journalists (oh, you already noticed a
> certain attitude on that point? Gave myself away again, eh). Does anyone
> on the list know what slant _Time_, _Newsweek_, _Washington Post_ or _LA
> Times_ took on the religious identity of Heaven's Gate? Or the role of
> minor/new religions on the American faith scene?
>
I checked out Time and Newsweek, skimmed through them... Time's back-page
essay referred to Heaven's Gate as pagan, don't remember how, but it seems
a waste of energy to take Time to task (alliteration!) for one comment in
an issue packed with articles on the subject. I don't remember anything in
Newsweek. Anyone read the others?
IMHO, this is better than I expected from Time magazine. on my personal
bash-o-meter for pagan/gay/racial/everything, they tend to rank about
fifteen points lower than Newsweek, which is pretty low.
On Sun, 6 Apr 1997, David R. Burwasser wrote:
-d
__________________________________________________________________________
Join FIRE, an internet activist group to heal media portrayal of pagans.
http://www.oocities.org/CapitolHill/5883
mailing list contact: danica@mills.edu
_________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sun, 06 Apr 1997 11:36:44 -0400
From: Lowell & Nancy McFarland
To: FIRE
Cc: mcfarlan@mail1.nai.net
Subject: Pagans & CyberPatrol Filtering
CyberPatrol, one of the leading providers of Web Site "filtering"
(blocking/censoring to some) has agreed to discuss adding a
Pagan or Wiccan to their Oversight Committee.
*********************************************************************
> From: Lowell & Nancy McFarland , on 3/28/97
9:56 AM:
> To: debrag@microsys.com
> I seem to note that CyberPatrol's advisory panel contains several
> Christian advisors but there is no indication of a
> Pagan advisor.
[CyberPatrol Overview Committee
(http://www.microsys.com/pr97/cnot397.htm)
"...meets every two months and is made up of
representatives from a wide range of social,
political and civic organizations,
including the National Organization of Women (NOW),
the National Rifle Association (NRA),
the National Association for the Advancement of
Colored People (NAACP),
the Gay and Lesbian Alliance Against Defamation (GLAAD),
Morality in Media,
the teacher's union
and the PTO,
as well as a superintendent of schools,
a social worker,
a psychologist and a
minister.
All decisions by the committee are made by majority vote."
This added by LMcF April 6, 1997, for clarification. ]
> As Pagans are reportedly the fastest growing religious group
> in the US and the group most maligned by mainstream
> religious fanatics, is this an oversight or is it on purpose?
> Christian groups regularly call Pagans Satanists (even CyberPatrol
> lumps Satanists with Cults and then bans Pagan sites under
> the category of Satanists/Cults) and infers anti children
> activities.
> Of course, Satan is a mainstay of Christian, Jewish and Muslim
> (etc.) religions, but absent in most Pagan and Celtic religions.
> Celts don't even have a Hell as all Celts go to Avalon -
> regardless.
> As a Celt, often referred to as a Pagan, I recognize that
> Pagans, being older than today's mainstream religions, have
> differing ideas and concepts about many things including
> parenti a superintendent of schools,
> females, etc.
> Is it possible that you could add Pagans to your advisory council?
> Thank you,
> Lowell McFarland mcfarlan@ct1.nai.net
>
> SUSAN GETGOOD wrote:
> > Thank you for your e-mail. At our next CyberNOT Oversight
> > Committee meeting, we will indeed be discussing adding a Pagan
> > or Wiccan member to the Oversight Committee.
> > Regards
> > Susan Getgood
> > Director of Marketing
> > SUSANG@MICROSYS.COM
> From: Lowell & Nancy McFarland , on 4/3/97 1:23
PM:
> SUSAN GETGOOD
> Dear Ms. Getgood,
> Thank you for your quick reply.
> I appreciate your (and Microsystems, CyberPatrol's) consideration
> of a possible Pagan member for your oversight committee.
> As there is so much anger and misinformation about Pagans,
> I don't know how non-Pagans can fairly access the need for a Pagan
> and Pagan viewpoints on your oversight committee.
> I would like to send you some material that may be of assistance
> in case you do not have a live Pagan, at your next oversight
> committee meeting, to explain aspects of Paganism and how a Pagan
> might assist in parental choices.
> As the Pagan community is very concerned about issues involved
> with CyberPatrol, absent your objection, I would like to forward
> our communication to the Pagan Net.
> I think Pagans can contribute important viewpoints about Internet
> Web Sites - if I can be of further help, please call on me.
> Loch Sloy!
> Lowell McFarland mcfarlan@ct1.nai.net
>
Lowell --
please feel free to forward any information you think might be
helpful to us.
You arppreciate your (and Microsystems, CyberPatrol's) consideration
to a listserv or newsgroup.
I would appreciate it if you would copy me on your posting.
regards
susan
*******
Susan Getgood, Microsystems Software, Inc.
508 879 9000, e-mail susang@microsys.com
http://www.microsys.com / http://www.cyberpatrol.com
**********************************************************************
Background
In short, recently there has been increased concern among Celts, Pagans,
Witches, Wiccans, etc., about the apparent increase in Pagan Bashing,
especially on the Internet.
The thirtynine suicides of the the Christian Heaven's Gate cult
seemed to slide into the usual inaccurate Pagan Bashing of "Pagans
are cultists and Satanists and parents (and concerned groups)should
protect their children from Pagans."
Pagans and their cults(???) seem to be in the forefront of parental
warnings rather than those cultists who are fixated on the Book of
Revelations.
Coupled with multiple complaints from Pagans that their Web Site
has been unfairly censored (by a variety of "Net Nanny" groups) as
"inappropriate to children" or related to Satanic Groups or Cults,
plus additional concerns including CyberPatrol contracts with city
governments to "filter" all computer usage of schools and libraries,
I wrote to CyberPatrol and the e-mails are shown above.
On reflection, I recommend that those in our community in Boston,
Salem or New England could better continue this dialogue with
Ms. Susan Getgood of CyberPatrol/Microsys Inc.
I would/will assist or continue to present our concerns and
abilities to Ms. Getgood and CyberPatrol, if wanted.
If there are any recommendations, of any sort, please let me know.
I believe that the possibility of Pagans, with our unique sense of
tolerance, sexual equality, educational importance, parenting, etc.,
achieving standing with "Net Nanny" organizations is crucial.
protect their children from Pagans."
Pagans and their cults(???) seem to be in the forefront of parental
warnings rather than those cultists who are fixated on the Book of
I wish to again thank Ms. Susan Getgood for this opportunity
for dialogue and possible participation by the Pagan Community.
References;
http://www.microsys.com/cyber/cp_list.htm
http://www.microsys.com/pr97/cnot397.htm
http://www.microsys.com/prfiles/sn896.htm
http://www.microsys.com/cyber/cp_site.htm
http://go2.guardian.co.uk:80/theweb/859389144-cyber.html
http://www.artbell.com
Microsystems Software Inc
600 Worchester Road
Framingham, MA 01702
USA
Microsystems Software International Ltd
Silwood Park, Buckhurst Road
Ascot, Berkshire SL5 7PW
UK
info@microsys.com
Loch Sloy!
Lowell McFarland mcfarlan@ct1.nai.net
Date: Sun, 6 Apr 1997 23:57:24 -0400 (EDT)
From: AngloCelt@aol.com
To: danica@mills.edu
Subject: Re: FIRE: discussion:Do not forget the Gnostics.
no I am not familiar with him,But I would like to know more about his
readings.
And what trad of Gnostic are you? thank you for your response.
Rev.McDonald
Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 00:08:00 -0400 (EDT)
From: AngloCelt@aol.com
To: danica@mills.edu
Subject: Re: FIRE: discussion:Do not forget the Gnostics.
BrightShadow,
the mere thought that you would not accept anyone is disturbing. yes it
is
true, Crowley was also a Priest in a Gnostic Church, i am troubled by your
attack on the gnostic faith in your manner.
To answer your question, The beliefs of Gnostics(Same as Wiccans) vary,
You
have some Gnostics that are Christian, and some that are Pagan, and very
much
Pagan at that.
I thought YOU as a Pagan would be a little more accepting of a person that
wishes to incorperate jesus into their Paganism.
If a Pagan wants to incorperate Gonesh into their religion, does that make
them Hindu? I think not. the Question whether I believe that Jesus died
for
my sins is simple, i do not. But I do support and accept people who do.
Please do not be as strict about your Paganism as fundamental Christians
are
about their Christianity.
Rev. McDonald
Date: Mon, 07 Apr 1997 02:03:06 -0400 (EDT)
From: "David R. Burwasser"
To: Lowell & Nancy McFarland
Cc: cuups-l@uua.org, FIRE , cuups-usa@efn.org
Subject: Pagan rep may sit on CyberPatrol review board
Lowell and Nancy McFarland:
Congratulations on a political coup, getting Microsystems to give serious
consideration to the addition of a Pagan member to their Oversight Board,
which reconsiders CyberPatrol site bannings.
The wisest computer wonk I ever worked with once said, "The main source
of problems is solutions." The problem we now face is, who will this
Pagan member be and how will s/he interface with all the diverstity of
the Pagan community?
It would probably be best to have someone who has experience as a Pagan
leader on a scale larger than one coven/grove/nest/chapter; who is
highly computer literate, ideally a home page proprietor at least; and
who has some experience dealing with faith communities other than Pagan.
It might be clever to set up a list or site that would be dedicated to
communications to this person from the Internetted Pagan community -- to
bring germane problems to the attention of this person and to make sure
that, in our great diversity, appropriate attention is directed to those
traditions that are most distant from his or her own.
IMHO you are completely correct in your assessment that the Pagan
community is misunderstood enough by tan member to their Oversight Board,
which reconsiders CyberPatrol site bannings.
this.
Again, congratulations on a significant and early success.
Blesssed be,
David Burwasser
Date: Mon, 07 Apr 1997 03:50:56 -0400 (EDT)
From: "David R. Burwasser"
To: danica@mills.edu
Cc: zburwasser
Danica Nuccitelli writes:
<>
Was that Charles Krauthammer? Forget him, he spreads wrong news wherever
he goes. Same breed as Tony Snow.
The conservatives of my generation had some class, and few open chinks in
their minds. William Buckley favors legalization of marijuana; Barry
Goldwater supports gay rights -- both on the very conservative
grounds of respect for the individual.
This new breed isn't really conservative; they are some kind of mutant
that grew out of the crack where liberalism broke apart over Viet Nam.
Thanks for the info.
BB -- dB
Date: 07 Apr 1997 04:24:17 GMT
From: Milo Shiff
To: Lisette.Burwasser@oberlin.edu, Pandora@mail.mia.bellsouth.net
Cc: mcfarlan@mail1.nai.net, cuups-usa@efn.org, danica@mills.edu,
cuups-l@uua.org, eral@dreksys.com, eracl-erlan@igc.org
Subject: Re: Pagan rep may sit on CyberPatrol review board
On 4/7/97 at 6:15 AM, David R. Burwasser wrote:
DRB> Lowell and Nancy McFarland:
DRB>
DRB> Congratulations on a political coup, getting Microsystems to give
DRB> serious consideration to the addition of a Pagan member to their
DRB> Oversight Board, which reconsiders CyberPatrol site bannings.
DRB>
DRB> The wisest computer wonk I ever worked with once said, "The main
source
DRB> of problems is solutions." The problem we now face is, who will this
DRB> Pagan member be and how will s/he interface with all the diverstity
of
DRB> the Pagan community?
DRB>
DRB> It would probably be best to have someone who has experience as a
Pagan
DRB> leader on a scale larger than one coven/grove/nest/chapter; who is
DRB> highly computer literate, ideally a home page proprietor at least;
and
DRB> who has some experience dealing with faith communities other than
Pagan.
DRB>
DRB> It might be clever to set up a list or site that would be dedicated
to
DRB> communications to this person from the Internetted Pagan community --
to
DRB> bring germane problems to the attention of this person and to make
sure
DRB> that, in our great diversity, appropriate attention is directed to
those
DRB> traditions that are most distant from his or her own.
DRB>
DRB> IMHO you are completely correct in your assessment that the Pagan
DRB> community is misunderstood enough by the usual arbiters of what is
fit
DRB> fare for young people, that it should represent itself on a board
DRB> such as this.
DRB>
DRB> Again, congratulations on a significant and early success.
REPLY:
May I suggest Pandora of Pandora's On-line BookShop? She already has a
web
site and has a LOT of experience with dealing with Pagans from extremely
diverse backgrounds and has shown herself to be level-headed, open-minded,
intelligent, and considerate.
Bast and Tameran witchcraft site at:
Date: Mon, 07 Apr 1997 08:41:23 EDT
From: Carolyn E Cason
To: danica@mills.edu
Subject: Re: article: witchcraft in Russia -- from the NY Times
On Sun, 6 Apr 1997 18:22:01 -0700 (PDT) FIRE writes:
>Date: Sat, 5 Apr 1997 15:20:42 -0500
>From: John Yohalem
>To: FIRE
>Subject: witchcraft in Russia -- from the NY Times
>
>A front page article in today's (Apr. 5) NY Times . . . .
That's funny. That same article was on the back page of the last section
of the local newspaper here, along with the obituaries!
Carolyn :)
Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 10:15:35 -0400 (EDT)
From:
To: FIRE
Subject: Re: FIRE: action alert: media issues with misconceptions
Beth,
While I applaud your intent, I think Rush Limbaugh is a lost cause. Don't
waste your time. We could explain things to him, but he's never let the
facts get in his way before, and I don't think he will now.
Better we should stick to "hard news" forums, I think.
Blessings,
Jennifer Hunter
Date: Mon, 07 Apr 97 10:11:04 EST
From: harpmead@wa2000.winarea.biddeford.com
To: danica@mills.edu
Subject: Re: FIRE: discussion: Discordian
Principia
MA>Discordia written (under divine insperation, 'natch) by Greg Hill &
Kerry
MA>Thornly. It's avalable from several publishers, but please buy the one
from
MA>IllumeNet Press (purple cover) as that's the only one that the authers
see a
MA>money from. (Greg & Kerry are Anarchists, and don't belive in
copyrighting
MA>there
MA>work)
I know this is straying off-topic (sorry), but this illustrates exactly
what "copyright" and "anarchist" mean. Doesn't "anarchist" mean
"copyright is against my beliefs", and doesn't "copyright" mean
"protected so you can earn the money from your endeavor"?
Boggled,
Harper
Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 11:27:55 -0400 (EDT)
From:
To: FIRE
Subject: Re: Article: To the FIRE List: REALITY CHECK (Was Fwd: Misty
Letter)
The Mercedes Lackey post didn't offend me at all, unless you call bad
writing offensive. (It's why I don't read her books.)
But I basically agree with everything she said--though I have to admit, I
started skimming about 80% of the way through; all that raving was too
tiresome to read. One of my personal pet peeves is when people take
fiction
too seriously. And that includes SF, the Bible, the Koran, the
Necronomicon, etc etc. Stories are meant to be entertaining. Spiritual
texts are meant to be enligtnening. Neither are meant to be literal.
Blessings,
Jennifer Hunter
Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 12:34:44 -0400 (EDT)
From: Jennifer Hunter
To: FIRE
Subject: Re: Welcome!
Howdy guys...
I just realized that I had been posting messages with the titles of the
magazines I write for in the return address. Whoops.
I've repaired that, and just in case someone still recognizes the e-mail
address, I'm going to include a disclaimer with everything I write,
stating
that it is from ME and not intended to have any connection to the
magazines.
If you folks are going to forward any of my messages, do me a favor and
just snip the part with the mag titles in it. Thank you!!
Blessings,
Jennifer Hunter
******
Disclaimer: Although the e-mail account from which I am writing belongs to
my employer, the opinions I express are ENTIRELY my own!
******
Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 16:25:41 -0400 (EDT)
From: Sarah E Elsbernd
To: FIRE
Subject: Re: FIRE: discussion: Re: waahh
Awww,
*Sarah blushes alot*
Thanks!! :)
What'd I do to deserve this vote of confidence?
Hugs!
Sarah
On Sun, 6 Apr 1997, FIRE wrote:
> Date: Fri, 04 Apr 97 00:45:36
> From: "Skip, Josie, Julie, or Jenny"
> To: FIRE
> Subject: Re: FIRE: discussion: Re: waahh
>
> Sarah, you're alright. You have a really amazing
> life ahead of you. I like you alot.
>
> Josie
>
>
Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 17:13:17 -0400 (EDT)
From: Sarah E Elsbernd
To: Milo Shiff
Cc: Lisette.Burwasser@oberlin.edu, Pandora@mail.mia.bellsouth.net,
mcfarlan@mail1.nai.net, cuups-usa@efn.org, danica@mills.edu,
cuups-l@uua.org, eral@dreksys.com, eracl-erlan@igc.org
Subject: Re: Pagan rep may sit on CyberPatrol review board
On 7 Apr 1997, Milo Shiff wrote:
> REPLY:
>
> May I suggest Pandora of Pandora's On-line BookShop? She already has
a web
> site and has a LOT of experience with dealing with Pagans from extremely
> diverse backgrounds and has shown herself to be level-headed,
open-minded,
> intelligent, and considerate.
Well, in answer to that, I mailed Pandora informing her that her web pages
were on the CyberNot list and I haven't heard anything back from her.
Until I hear that she has taken some action, I think we must assume that
she doesn't care.
But if she does care...she'd be GREAT! sigh.
BB,
Ripples
Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 21:52:34 -0400
From: John Yohalem
To: FIRE
Subject: Re: Discussion: Re: Article: To the FIRE List: REALITY CHECK
[The following text is in the "ISO-8859-1" character set]
[Your display is set for the "US-ASCII" character set]
[Some characters may be displayed incorrectly]
> The Mercedes Lackey post didn't offend me at all, unless you call bad
> writing offensive. (It's why I don't read her books.)
I thought it much better written than her books. The characters were so
much more believable.
>
> But I basically agree with everything she said--though I have to admit,
I
> started skimming about 80% of the way through; all that raving was too
> tiresome to read. One of my personal pet peeves is when people take
fiction
> too seriously. And that includes SF, the Bible, the Koran, the
> Necronomicon, etc etc. Stories are meant to be entertaining. Spiritual
> texts are meant to be enligtnening. Neither are meant to be literal.
Well, much of the Koran is memoir, and much of the Bible is chronicle, and
it is meant to be taken literally. Not all of it obviously. As Christian
theologians have explained to us, the Song of Songs is really about God's
love for the Church.
(pious sigh, ecstatic smile)
Brightshadow
Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 21:49:18 -0400
From: John Yohalem
To: FIRE
Subject: Re: FIRE: article: New York Times on Heaven's Gate
[The following text is in the "ISO-8859-1" character set]
[Your display is set for the "US-ASCII" character set]
[Some characters may be displayed incorrectly]
> "There are 2,000 distinct religious
> groups in America," said J. Gordon
> Melton, director of the Institute for the
> Study of American Religion in Santa Barbara, Calif.
>
> "There is a full array of the world's religions," Melton
> added. "For example, Los Angeles is the only place in the world that you
> can find all forms of Buddhism. Not even Asian countries have all forms
> of Buddhism."
> "A major trend is toward differentiation and more
> pluralism all the time," Melton said. He edits "The Encyclopedia of
> American Religions" (Gale), with descriptions of groups that fill
> hundreds of pages. Many of these share some tie to one of the major
> world faiths, but scores of others expound metaphysical, New Age or
> psychic beliefs.
>
> Even in his first edition, back in 1978, Melton found
> enough "neo-pagan" groups to fill four different categories, as well as
> numerous clusters of people gathered around teachers whom they regarded
> as possessing a special wisdom or holiness. Many such groups are small,
> consisting of no more than a single congregation of believers. Some are
> short-lived; others change names or merge with the like-minded.
Melton, who is a Methodist bishop, has always been a great friend to Wicca
and Neo-Paganism, has taught workshops at pagan gatherings, etc. He
recognizes the ethical and spiritual solidity in our faiths. Which just
goes to show you -- not all the mainstream or Christian faiths confuse us
with cults.
John Brightshadow Yohalem
(who has just become National PIO of Covenant of the Goddess by the way,
wow.)
Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 19:38:43 -0700 (PDT)
From: Milieu
To: FIRE
Subject: Re: FIRE: discussion: Discordian
>I know this is straying off-topic (sorry), but this illustrates exactly
>what "copyright" and "anarchist" mean. Doesn't "anarchist" mean
>"copyright is against my beliefs", and doesn't "copyright" mean
>"protected so you can earn the money from your endeavor"?
>
>Boggled,
>Harper
>
I think in this case Anarchist means something different... Perhaps these
people sow the seeds of chaos rather than eschew legal protection which
provides domestic and social necessaries. A spiritual celebration of
random-ness, a living meditation on disorder. I can do that just by
looking at my desk, in my closets...
Rational Anarchy is a political state of mind. Thomas Jefferson seems to
have held it, and Robert Heinlein goes on at length in several books (Moon
is a Harsh Mistress, Stranger In A Strange Land, and others of less note).
There. Maybe that will de-boggle you my dear.
: )
A.
Date: Mon, 07 Apr 1997 22:56:11 -0400 (EDT)
From: "David R. Burwasser"
To: FIRE
Cc: zburwasser
Subject: Re: FIRE: discussion: Re: Welcome!
On Mon, 7 Apr 1997, FIRE wrote:
> Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 12:34:44 -0400 (EDT)
> From: Jennifer Hunter
> To: FIRE
> Subject: Re: Welcome!
>
> Howdy guys...
>
> I just realized that I had been posting messages with the titles of the
> magazines I write for in the return address. Whoops.
>
> I've repaired that
Awwwwwww.......
Date: Mon, 07 Apr 1997 23:11:46 -0400 (EDT)
From: "David R. Burwasser"
To: FIRE
Subject: Re: FIRE: discussion: Discordian
On Mon, 7 Apr 1997, Harper wrote:
> Doesn't "anarchist" mean
> "copyright is against my beliefs", and doesn't "copyright" mean
> "protected so you can earn the money from your endeavor"?
The anarchist does not accept government -- an institution enforcing its
will as expressed in laws, regulations, decrees, etc, and reserving to
itself a monopoly on the use of force to extract compliance.
Note that the anarchist does not reject the use of force per se, or
codes of conduct per se, only the idea that one and only one institution
may do so. It is perfectly consistent with anarchism to, eg, reject the
War on Drugs but organize a neighborhood to forcefully expel a
street-corner
drug trade that is bringing shootouts to that neighborhood.
Copyright is a legally enforceable, limited duration monopoly on one's
own writing. Like a patent -- a similar monopoly over production of one's
own inventions -- it is intended to reward innovation by forbidding
competition for a set period of time. This is an idea so old that money
one gets from a copyright arrangement is called "royalties."
Obviously, as a product of government, copyright per se is unacceptable
to anarchist writers who walk their talk. But that doesn't mean they
don't want to benefit from their writing. These guys have evidently stuck
an income-sharing deal with one publisher, and are encouraging you -- the
potential reader -- to buy your copy only from that publisher.
This is perfectly consistent with anarchism. You, the potential buyer,
are given information about the situation. Then you choose what you want
to do, and do it.
Blessed be,
Dave Burwasser
Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 23:32:32 -0400 (EDT)
From: LCorncalen@aol.com
To: CatGuy@lamg.com
Cc: mcfarlan@mail1.nai.net, Lisette.Burwasser@oberlin.edu,
Pandora@mail.mia.bellsouth.net, danica@mills.edu, LCorncalen@aol.com
Subject: Re: Pagan rep may sit on CyberPatrol review board
In a message dated 97-04-07 08:40:58 EDT, CatGuy@lamg.com (Milo Shiff)
writes:
<< Congratulations on a political coup, getting Microsystems to give DRB
serious consideration to the addition of a Pagan member to their DRB
Oversight Board, which reconsiders CyberPatrol site bannings. >>
Many Pagan Websites, including the Earth Religions Legal Assistance
Network
(ERLAN) website < http://205.226.66.2/~rowanf/ERAL/eral.html > continue to
be
blocked by Cyber Patrol. Some of these sites are posted on a web site at:
. Nobody knows how
many
Pagan sites are blocked (except, perhaps Cyber Patrol). To find out if a
site is blocked, you can use their search engine at: <
http://www.microsys.com/cybernot >
IMHO, a position on the Cyber Patrol Appeals Board at this time might be
analogous to the positions given to Jews by the Nazis in the
administration
of death camps -- good for propoganda purposes and for helping to keep the
inmates from rebelling; but of little additonal value concerning the many
Pagan sites that they routinely kill by censorship through their softwar
serious consideration to the addition of a Pagan member to their DRB
that
their site is dead to CyberPatrol users and goes through their appeals
procedures).
Has Cyber Patrol provided any indication of significant changes in the
ways
that they routinely deal with Pagan sites, train their censors, or enforce
policies concerning discrimination against religions? Is Cyber Patrol
just
opening up a token slot on their Appeals Board, that meets six times per
year, while their staff of censors continues to block Pagan sites, etc. as
part of their full time job? Is this for the purpose of trying to
undercut
pressure against them and their customers, along with attempts to file
suit
against them for their continuing discrimination against Pagan sites?
Please consider the pattern of censorship of sites promoting Paganism by
Cyber Patrol and the fact that they do not routinely let Webmasters know
that
their site is censored. I urge anyone considering a position on the
Cyber
Patrol Appeals Board to consider the implications of taking such a
position.
Please consider turning down any official position in this capacity until
Cyber Patrol commits to the quick and effective implementation of program
involving the training their censors not to ban Pagan sites (and sites of
any
religion) and to the effective enforcement of policies among their workers
to
not ban such sites.
If CyberPatrol were to agree, in writing, and implement an effective
program
to:
1. Train their censors about Paganism
2. Not censor sites on the basis of religion (Pagan, Cult or whatever)
3. Establish and implement effective enforcement procedures that would
suspend, and for repeated violations -- fire, any of their staff who bans
sites because of the religions they advocate or are associated with
(Pagan,
cult or whatever), after being warned once or twice about inappropriate
censorship
4. Commit to a fast-track timetable for implementing the above
Then, and only then, would a position on their appeals board seem
appropriate
to me. However, these are my opinions; and I respect your right to your
own.
You have my permission to share with Cyber Patrol, or anybody, the four
numbered demands above -- but not the rest of this message or its specific
origin. Saying that such demands are being considered and discussed among
a
wide variety of Earth Religionists in the context of potential legal
action,
looting and/or improving on my ideas, and calling for similar or different
action would be fair game though. I would be very interested in any
improvements to the ideas that I am presenting, copies of messages to
Cyber
Patrol, and to hearing the ideas of others. Permission to pass on the
websites and the information about how to subscribe to ERAL to sympathetic
Earth Religionists and attorneys is also granted.
I think we need to get serious and put together the type of legal case and
coalition that could file for and obtain an injunction that would ban
government institutions (schools, libraries, etc.) and private
institutions
(companies, Internet service providers, etc.) who are covered by civil
rights
legislation forbidding discrimination on the basis of religion, from using
Cyber Patrol. If Cyber Patrol were to commit to an appropriate program
complying with all four points above, efforts to do this could be put on
hold
(and ended when an effective program is fully implemented). Under these
circumstances, I would encourage Pagans to serve as consultants to Cyber
Patrol helping them to establish and implement such procedures and to join
their appeals board -- but not to do this before they make a firm
commitment
to a program of action along these lines.
At this time, I think that letters would be appropriate from attorneys to
CyberPatrol letting them know that, unless they do what is described in
the
four points above, they and many of their institutional customers will
face
legal action. However, if they commit to such a program, they can expect
cooperation. IMHO, attorneys are needed to draft and send such letters
ASAP
(perhaps with help from law students or paralegals), or something
equivalent
(the details of the letters would be up to the attorneys). Any
volunteers?
In addition, a coalition should be created to follow through with such a
suit
if necessary. Volunteers are needed to contact the ACLU, Americans United
for
Separation of Church and State, People for the American Way, UU Social
Action, etc. to see if they might be interested in joining an e-mail list
or
coalition to coordinate legal action concerning Cyber Patrol, or if they
have
something happening already on the Cyber Vision issue that would achieve
the
aforementioned demands that legally trained volunteers might be able to
help
with (and what is planned by when and who to contact and how to help if
they
do). I would greatly appreciate finding out the details if there is
interest
or action on the part of other organizations along these lines, so I can
pass
them on to the member of the Earth Religions Assistance List (ERAL), and
others.
This is not to say that those considering other routes to solve the
problem
without going to court should abandon their efforts. A legal initiative of
the nature of what I have described could help in such efforts. What
individuals and organizations do about Cyber Patrol is up to them; but I
strongly urge serious consideration of the implications of establishing
any
official relationship with Cyber Patrol at this time.
As they have done with the National Organization of Women (NOW) and the
National Association for the Advancement of Colored People (NAACP), Cyber
Patrol might use any organizational affiliations you give them in their
publicity, to make it seem that the associated organizations support what
they are doing. Unless the organization officially and explicitly
supports
having you as a representative in a capacity related to Cyber Patrol,
please
let Cyber Patrol know that they are not to publicize your organizational
affiliations, if you should decide to join them in any official capacity.
I
believe that they could be subject to litigation and damages if they
associated an organization with Cyber Patrol without the organizations'
official OK, but an attorney would know better than me about this.
It would be good if members of NOW, the NAACP, GLAD and other
organizations
listed in Cyber Patrol publicity would contact the organizational
headquarters to find out if these organizations actually have official
representatives on the Cyber Patrol Appeals Board. If not,please encourage
them to take appropriate action concerning Cyber Patrol's use of their
organizational name in their publicity. If so, please find out who the
representative is and make sure that the person and the organization is
aware
of Cyber Patrol's discrimination against Pagan Sites, etc. and what Cyber
Patrol's publicity is doing to the image of your organization.
I am not an attorney, nor are any comments and suggestions that I am
making
to be taken as legal advice or the opinions of any organization. I am not
a
lawyer, and I am not providing legal advice. What I am doing is
expressing
my opinions and asking for attorneys and others to consider them and to
take
appropriate action. I am not, nor will I ever be, responsible if anybody
takes the opinions offered as legal advice and acts thereon.
The opinions that I am expressing here are my own. However, I am thinking
about making an official proposal to a number of organizations similar to
the
content of this message, after these concepts are discussed and perhaps
improved (or somebody beats me to the punch with a better proposal and
appropriate action). I would urge others to consider making similar
proposals to the organizations with which they are affiliated.
The type of proposal I have in mind would commit the organization to the
above demands, to be a participant in such a suit, to seek and provide
funding for such a suit, to seek allies for such a suit, and to also enter
into coalitions with broader demands that would encompass outcomes
consistent
with the four demands above, etc. -- unless CyberPatrol complies with the
four demands, in which case they would encourage people to help them
implement them and would consider having a representative on their appeals
board (if they drop the ban on sites with nudity also). However, no such
proposal has been made yet, and any actual actions of this nature would be
up
to the organizations and associated attorneys to decide.
To find out more about the Earth Religions Assistance List (ERAL) and the
Earth Religions Legal Assistance Network (ERLAN), visit the ERLAN Website
at
http://205.226.66.2/~rowanf/ERAL/eral.html. If you are interested in
helping with Earth Religionists with legal problems associated with their
religion (including the many custody, job discrimination, zoning, and
other
cases that commonly occur, as well as situations like the Cyber Patrol
case),
you can subscribe to ERAL by sending a message to:
eral-request@ns with broader demands that would encompass outcomes
consistent
Subscribe
If you have trouble getting through to eral-request@dreksys.com or getting
a
response, e-mail lcorncalen@aol.com.
If and when you send in your subscribe message, you will be sent a message
from the software running the list; and then an ERAL/ERLAN moderator will
send you a two-part message containing a questionnaire from the ERAL
"Registration Room" for you to fill out and send back before you are let
on-line. It covers your identity, your confidentiality, and how you are
willing to help. Please do not be intimidated or offended at the
questionnaire. It is an important communications tool for introducing you
to
ERAL members and to expedite creation of a membership and volunteer
database.
The registration room messages also explain the ERAL rules and
confidentiality requirements. Once you agree to the ERAL Rules,
Netiquette
Guide and associated confidentiality requirements, you will b
subscribed to ERAL.
To unsubscribe, send a message to eral-request@dreksys.com with the body
of
the message containing ONLY the word: Unsubscribe
Membership in ERAL will qualify you to be a member of the Earth Religions
Assistance Communications List (ERACL) where legal strategies as well as
other strategies for dealing with problems such as Cyber Patrol are
discussed
in detail, proposals refined, etc. ERACL is also used to discuss
organizational matters internal to ERLAN and to discuss just about
anything
that members would like to. Recently, it has been quite occupied with the
Cyber Patrol situation and media alerts.
It is possible for an attorney to become an honorary ERAL member without
actually subscribing, if the attorney agrees to treat any information
provided from ERAL and ERACL as confidential. This would allow messages
to
be forwarded to such attorneys from ERLAN lists, and for the attorney to
more
fully participate in an ERLAN Legal Team than would be possible with a
non-member. Any help recruiting attorneys, paralegals, or law students to
join could be most helpful, along with Earth Religion Rights activists to
help with our work.
If you choose to respond to me, it would be great if you could do so as a
member of ERAL and ERACL. However, I realize that people can only
participate in a limited number of e-mail lists effectively. If you
respond
to me in private e-mail, permission to forward your response to the
members
of the Earth Religions Assistance List (ERAL) would be appreciated.
Selected responses and portions of responses will be forwarded to the
ERAL
or to the Earth Religions Assistance Communications List (ERACL), which is
currently discussing the issue of Cyber Patrol in considerable detail.
They
will also be included in a digest of associat
available to ERAL members.
Blessed Be and Never Thirst!
Larry Cornett
Date: Tue, 8 Apr 97 00:40:47 -0400
From: "D. Kirkpatrick"
To: CatGuy@lamg.com, Lisette.Burwasser@oberlin.edu,
Pandora@mail.mia.bellsouth.net
Cc: mcfarlan@mail1.nai.net, cuups-usa@efn.org, danica@mills.edu,
cuups-l@uua.org, ERAL MAIN ,
ERACL ERAL Chat
Subject: Re: Pagan rep may sit on CyberPatrol review board
Meetings of the advisory committee take place as far as I know at the
company's headquarters in Framingham, Ma about 1 hours drive from me.
I've already posted other messages that I'm in talks with another on-line
rep at that company on this issue as well. Maybe the messages are not
getting through.
As to qualifications my guess is that any pagan that sits with them will
have to have all the customary qualifications that the mainstream has
including church status and extension of privileges to sign marriage
certificates. I carry both of those plus operate a commercial web site
and moderate a forum on Compuserve. So I'm on-line savvy too.
DMK
Date: Tue, 08 Apr 1997 01:37:47 -0400 (EDT)
From: "David R. Burwasser"
To: LCorncalen@aol.com
Cc: CatGuy@lamg.com, mcfarlan@mail1.nai.net,
Lisette.Burwasser@oberlin.edu,
Pandora@mail.mia.bellsouth.net, cuups-usa ,
danica@mills.edu
Subject: Re: Pagan rep may sit on CyberPatrol review board
Two out of three ain't bad.
On Mon, 7 Apr 1997 LCorncalen@aol.com wrote:
> IMHO, a position on the Cyber Patrol Appeals Board at this time might be
> analogous to the positions given to Jews by the Nazis in the
administration
> of death camps
I*M*HO this is an entirely inappropriate way to speak of the several (at
least) Pagans who want to try to work the inside track with this company.
This does not make them dupes, Uncle Toms, or mean they are ignorant of
the severity of the problem. They want to walk a different route in
dealing with MicroSystems and CyberPatrol, and their choice should be
respected.
> If CyberPatrol were to agree, in writing, and implement an effective
program
> to:
>
> 1. Train their censors about Paganism
>
> 2. Not censor sites on the basis of religion (Pagan, Cult or whatever)
>
> 3. Establish and implement effective enforcement procedures that would
> suspend, and for repeated violations -- fire, any of their staff who
bans
> sites because of the religions they advocate or are associated with
(Pagan,
> cult or whatever), after being warned once or twice about inappropriate
> censorship
>
> 4. Commit to a fast-track timetable for implementing the above
>
> Then, and only then, would a position on their appeals board seem
appropriate
> to me. However, these are my opinions; and I respect your right to your
own.
These are a good start on a general bargaining position. It might be
smarter to make these points from a position of already occupying a seat
on their review board, rather than say we won't consider such a position
until such demands are met. (I engaged in both kinds of bargaining with
college administrations in the Sixties, with mixed results for both.)
> I think we need to get serious and put together the type of legal case
and
> coalition that could file for and obtain an injunction that would ban
> government institutions (schools, libraries, etc.) and private
institutions
> cult or whatever), after being warned once or twice about inappropriate
> censorship
>
> 4. Commit to a fast-track timetable for implementing the above
>
> Then, and only then, would a position on their appeals board seem
appropriate
> to me. However, these are my opinions; and I respect your right to your
own.
These are a good start on a general bargaining position. It might be
smarter to make these points from a position of already occupying a seat
on their review board, rather than say we won't consider such a position
until such demands are met. (I engaged in both kinds of bargaining with
college administrations in the Sixties, with mixed results for both.)
> I think we need to get serious and put together the type of legal case
and
> coalition that could file for and obtain an injunction that would ban
> government institutions (schools, libraries, etc.) and private
institutions
> (companies, Internet service providers, etc.) who are covered by civil
rights
> legislation forbidding discrimination on the basis of religion, from
using
> Cyber Patrol.
I agree completely. We have to be sophisticated enought to work both the
diplomatic consultative and legal confrontational routines at once.
The one thing we don't need is a Witch War over methods inside the Pagan
civil liberties community right when we might be seeing some progress on
this issue.
Blessed be,
Dave Burwasser
Date: 08 Apr 1997 02:21:39 GMT
From: Milo Shiff
To: LCorncalen@aol.com
Cc: eral@dreksys.com, Lisette.Burwasser@oberlin.edu,
mcfarlan@mail1.nai.net,
LCorncalen@aol.com, danica@mills.edu, Pandora@mail.mia.bellsouth.net
Subject: Re: Re: Pagan rep may sit on CyberPatrol review boa
In message ID <970407233035_-1871572418@emout14.mail.aol.com> on 4/8/97,
LCorncalen@aol.com wrote:
L> 1. Train their censors about Paganism
L>
L> 2. Not censor sites on the basis of religion (Pagan, Cult or whatever)
L>
L> 3. Establish and implement effective enforcement procedures that would
L> suspend, and for repeated violations -- fire, any of their staff who
bans
L> sites because of the religions they advocate or are associated with
(Pagan,
L> cult or whatever), after being warned once or twice about inappropriate
L> censorship
L>
L> 4. Commit to a fast-track timetable for implementing the above
I would add one more to the list:
5. Notify any censored site that they have been censored, along with
instructions for how to appeal.
Bast and Tameran witchcraft site at:
Date: Tue, 08 Apr 1997 07:43:41 -0400
From: Anemone
To: FIRE
Subject: Re: FIRE: action alert: media issues with misconceptions
I always thought there was one way to get through to Rush, or maybe some
of his listeners. You'd have to do the "good conservative" rap about
people in this very country being punished for their faith and even
losing their kids etc. etc. ...and only at the very end revealing what
exactly that faith is. It would require actually getting on the air,
though. That's the snag. Most radio shows control who gets on very
tightly, however "random" they want to appear. They prescreen what
you're going to say as well. From what I understand, Limbaugh's show is
worst of all. What we'd need to find is someone who's genuinely his
breed of conservative (that is, not really constitutionally
conservative, but more republican than the gop...) to write him a
terribly flattering letter saying "I agree with you on x, y & z...but
something's happening in this country and its really obscene..." and see
if he bites. I don't have my hopes up.
Blessings, light & dark,
Margot
Date: Tue, 8 Apr 1997 12:42:26 -0500
From: rainbowwing@webtv.net
To: danica@mills.edu
Subject: Gina Smith Apologizes!
I received information from a pagan newsgroup that Gina Smith, who made
an inappropriate link between paganism and cults on a recent Good
Morning America telecast, sent out an apology for her comments.
Apparently, in addition to her GMA duties, she also hosts a radio show
called "On Computers", and it was on that show this past Sunday, where
she made the apology. She said that she was deluged with letters from
the pagan community that were informative and understanding, and that
she's learned a lot about pagans.
Proof positive that when enough people take a stand, things can get
done.
Peace and light,
Selena Kyte
Date: Tue, 8 Apr 1997 18:20:52 -0400 (EDT)
From: LCorncalen@aol.com
To: Lisette.Burwasser@oberlin.edu
Cc: mcfarlan@mail1.nai.net, Pandora@mail.mia.bellsouth.net,
cuups-usa@efn.org, danica@mills.edu
Subject: Re: Pagan rep may sit on CyberPatrol review board
In a message dated 97-04-08 12:54:01 EDT, Lisette.Burwasser@oberlin.edu
(David R. Burwasser) writes:
<< > IMHO, a position on the Cyber Patrol Appeals Board at this time might
be
> analogous to the positions given to Jews by the Nazis in the
administration
> of death camps
I*M*HO this is an entirely inappropriate way to speak of the several (at
least) Pagans who want to try to work the inside track with this company.
This does not make them dupes, Uncle Toms, or mean they are ignorant of
the severity of the problem. They want to walk a different route in
dealing with MicroSystems and CyberPatrol, and their choice should be
respected. >>
I presented the concept as an analogy, not as a one to one correspondence.
I
couldn't think of a more effective analogy, and still can't. Any
suggestions?
My last job was as a contractor for DOE, but I don't think the analogy
would
be as readily understood.
I am not trying to say that there were not some good Jews who did some
good
things in such positions in Nazi death camps or that a Pagan couldn't do
good things on the Cyber Patrol appeals board --just that
1. It is highly unlikely to be enough to get the job done, and
2. That a position on the Cyber Patrol Board can be exploited by Cyber
patrol for propoganda purposes
I think that having a good Pagan (like those who I know of who are
interested
in the position) could help, and the help would be much more than the
harm
if Cyber Patrol is not empowered to use having a Pagan in such a position
as
a propoganda tool.
I think that the problem will need to be approached from many angles.
In general, I favor people pursuing all lines of attack, and trying to get
volunteers to do the work making the lines of attack that they favor
happen.
Many different lines of attack are possible, and I don't see any at cross
purposes a-priori (if suitable precautions are taken to prevent Cyber
Patrol
as presenting such involvement as something at cross purposes--one of the
points of my message). Involvement in their appeals board could be on an
unofficial basis, unless Cyber Patrol would agree to official involvement
without trying to make propoganda out of such involvement--a bridge that
could be crossed when and if they make and offer.
It is up to the individuals who do the work to decide what to put time and
resources into, and how to do it. I hope this these discussions are
useful
for refining the methods we use to achieve our objectives. I am glad to
see
people doing something.
Blessed Be and Never Thirst!
Larry Cornett
Date: Tue, 08 Apr 1997 19:17:58 -0400 (EDT)
From: "David R. Burwasser"
To: LCorncalen@aol.com
Cc: Lisette.Burwasser@oberlin.edu, mcfarlan@mail1.nai.net,
Pandora@mail.mia.bellsouth.net, cuups-usa@efn.org, danica@mills.edu
Subject: Re: Pagan rep may sit on CyberPatrol review board
On Tue, 8 Apr 1997 LCorncalen@aol.com wrote:
> In a message dated 97-04-08 12:54:01 EDT, Lisette.Burwasser@oberlin.edu
> (David R. Burwasser) writes:
>
[Note: Larry Cornett, not Dave Burwasser, wrote this:]
> << > IMHO, a position on the Cyber Patrol Appeals Board at this time
might be
> > analogous to the positions given to Jews by the Nazis in the
> administration
> > of death camps
[...and Burwasser wrote:]
>
> I*M*HO this is an entirely inappropriate way to speak of the several
(at
> least) Pagans who want to try to work the inside track with this
company.
> This does not make them dupes, Uncle Toms, or mean they are ignorant of
> the severity of the problem. They want to walk a different route in
> dealing with MicroSystems and CyberPatrol, and their choice should be
> respected. >>
>
> I presented the concept as an analogy, not as a one to one
correspondence. I
> couldn't think of a more effective analogy, and still can't. Any
suggestions?
> My last job was as a contractor for DOE, but I don't think the analogy
would
> be as readily understood.
The trouble with the analogy you used is that it is entirely too readily
understood as betrayal on the part of the Pagan rep and total disapproval
on your part. I had to straighten out one cuups-usa correspondent that
the bulk of your post was about conditions for *accepting* this offer.
> I am not trying to say that there were not some good Jews who did some
good
> things in such positions in Nazi death camps or that a Pagan couldn't
do
> good things on the Cyber Patrol appeals board
Your attempts to retrieve the analogy are going nowhere. Sorry.
--just that
>
> 1. It is highly unlikely to be enough to get the job done, and
On what basis is this statement made? This is entirely destructive of
anything said later about being in agreement with trying this approach,
to start out by saying it won't do any good.
We are Pagans. We believe our words can have effects. Let's act like it.
> 2. That a position on the Cyber Patrol Board can be exploited by Cyber
> patrol for propoganda purposes
This is a hopeless condition. Of *course* CP will use it for propaganda
effect. So will we, if we retain one wit to rub against another. This is
the real world we're dealing with, and we don't get to construct a nicer
alternative reality and still deal with it.
> I think that having a good Pagan (like those who I know of who are
interested
> in the position) could help, and the help would be much more than the
harm
> if Cyber Patrol is not empowered to use having a Pagan in such a
position as
> a propoganda tool.
Reality check: We don't have the power to prevent that last.
> I think that the problem will need to be approached from many angles.
Anyone who really thinks this will refrain from inflammatory denigration
of other angles than hir own.
>
> In general, I favor people pursuing all lines of attack, and trying to
get
> volunteers to do the work making the lines of attack that they favor
happen.
> Many different lines of attack are possible, and I don't see any at
cross
> purposes a-priori (if suitable precautions are taken to prevent Cyber
Patrol
> as presenting such involvement as something at cross purposes--one of
the
> points of my message). Involvement in their appeals board could be on an
> unofficial basis, unless Cyber Patrol would agree to official
involvement
> without trying to make propoganda out of such involvement--a bridge that
> could be crossed when and if they make and offer.
No, we cross this bridge before they make the offer, if we expect to be in
anything other than totally disarray when they do.
"Unofficial" involvement is non-involvement. The only reason to get
involved is to have someone there to whom Pagans can turn immediately for
an understanding, *official* hearing.
Now, as to whom that person officially represents, that's another matter.
It probably should not be the same entitity that will be suing for an
injunction against CyberPatrol government clients. So the first thing to
decide is: Who files that suit?
Since we already have one organization in place -- ERLAN -- what we need
to do is whump up a cut-out organization for one function and use ERLAN
for the other. Since we are possibly quite close to placing a rep, and
evidently rather far from filing suit, and we anticipate a need for a
coaliton to do the latter anyway (I am quoting here from Larry's
insithout trying to make propoganda out of such involvement--a bridge that
we have the rep arrive under the ERLAN banner and pull together the
cut-out for the lawsuit.
Another reason for this is that we may (unlikely, but possible) find we
don't need that lawsuit, so we save ourselves the trouble of inventing
the cut-out in that event.
> It is up to the individuals who do the work to decide what to put time
and
> resources into, and how to do it. I hope this these discussions are
useful
> for refining the methods we use to achieve our objectives. I am glad to
see
> people doing something.
But it is up to us to decide what backing they will get.
Note that MicroSystems does not say, "We have a feminist, an African
American, a homosexual, a school teacher and a gun fancier on the review
board." They say, "We have members of NOW, NAACP, GLAAD, the teachers'
union and NRA." These people have constituencies. Just having "a Pagan"
on that board is far less meaningful than having some indication that
this Pagan has a constituency. What kind of constituency are we willing
to provide?
This takes something more than time or money; it takes faith. We have to
believe in the person who takes that seat, and we have to share the risk
that person takes by articulating that belief at least once to
MicroSystems, either institutionally or one by one.
And we have to refrain from trashing hir just for being there.
Blessed be,
Dave Burwasser
Date: Wed, 9 Apr 1997 10:28:27 -0400 (EDT)
From: slutsrus@echonyc.com
To: FIRE
Subject: Yaay, John!
>
>John Brightshadow Yohalem
>
>(who has just become National PIO of Covenant of the Goddess by the way,
>wow.)
Congratulations, and thanks for taking on such a high-stress, low-glamour,
and extremely necessary job.
Date: Wed, 9 Apr 1997 10:39:24 -0400 (EDT)
From: slutsrus@echonyc.com
To: FIRE
Subject: Re: FIRE: action: Gina Smith Apologizes!
>Date: Tue, 8 Apr 1997 12:42:26 -0500
>From: rainbowwing@webtv.net
>To: danica@mills.edu
>Subject: Gina Smith Apologizes!
>
>I received information from a pagan newsgroup that Gina Smith, who made
>an inappropriate link between paganism and cults on a recent Good
>Morning America telecast, sent out an apology for her comments.
>Apparently, in addition to her GMA duties, she also hosts a radio show
>called "On Computers", and it was on that show this past Sunday, where
>she made the apology. She said that she was deluged with letters from
>the pagan community that were informative and understanding, and that
>she's learned a lot about pagans.
>Proof positive that when enough people take a stand, things can get
>done.
>
>Peace and light,
>Selena Kyte
COOL! I sent one of those letters. The only annoying bit is, I was
watching
GMA this morning and she apologized for calling the Unification Church
members "moonies"--from that same segment on cults and the Internet--but
didn't mention the fact that she offended Pagans as well. I guess it's OK
for her lesser-known radio show, but too weird for Good Morning America.
Oh
well. A partial victory.
Blessings,
Jennifer Hunter
******
Disclaimer: Although the e-mail account from which I am writing belongs to
my employer, the opinions I express are ENTIRELY my own!
******
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 08:55:53 -0500
From: Bob Ravenwren
To: Fire
Subject: Fox In The Morning ( A Local Witch)
Fox Thing in The Morning had a segment this morning that may be of
interest to some. A Witch by the name of Traci Wood was featured on the
program. The reason for this was so that this woman could cast a spell
on the Chicago Cubs to assist them in winning baseball games. After a
brief interview Ms Wood preformed a shortened ( by my experience) rite.
After some light hearted humor and the rite Ms Wood also made the point
that she takes this (being a witch ) very seriously. I was surprised at
the hosts of the show ( pleasently) that there were no disparenging
comments made. Hind sight is 20/20 and I think that Ms Wood could have
answered some of the questions better however I am not sure that I could
have done better myself. I am sure that she was nervous as well as I
would be as well.
Thank You Fox TV for that chance to again let people see and hear the
good that surrounds Witches/ Wiccans/ Pagans.
Bright Blessings
Bob Ravenwren
bjankusk@flash.net
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