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Date: Wed, 19 Mar 1997 16:00:41 -0800 (PST)
From: Milieu
To: danica@mills.edu
Subject: Re: Bedford NY
Danica, My mother-in-law lives in Bedford, so I forwarded the story about
Halloween/Samhain protests to her, asked what she knew about it. Folks in
Bedford are a close community and I figured she's know everything that
came
down - I got this reply from her. Might be good if someone checked
information before adding it to the rumor mill, eh?
To: milieu@asis.com
>Subject: Re: Bedford NY
>
>Avery -
>
>Yes, I do know something of the story you quoted about protests in
Bedford,
>and the story has certainly grown in the telling. It was odd enough to
begin
>with! Two Bedford mothers took exception to a board game that the
children
>were playing on school grounds. It was not a part of the curriculum or
any
>school activity. The game had images of satanic figures, like many I can
>think of. Anyway, they did force a couple of public meetings - the
second
>one came about because no one turned out for the first one except the few
who
>were protesting, including some from out of the community. I don't
believe
>it had any connection with the celebration of Halloween, or any other
>particular day. The kids were just playing a game that some people
thought
>was subversive It was not sponsored by the school, but a few people
>thought the schools should not have allowed it to go on. They were voted
>down.
>
>Clearer?
>
>
Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 08:10:13 EST
From: Carolyn E Cason
To: danica@mills.edu
Subject: Re: discussion: Vigils
On Wed, 19 Mar 1997 20:24:20 -0800 (PST) FIRE writes:
>Date: Wed, 19 Mar 1997 20:10:20 -0800
>From: Danielle Ni/ Dhighe
>To: FIRE
>Subject: Re: FIRE: Re: discussion: Vigils
>
>>I practice exactly the same religion as my ancestors did 50,000 years
>
>>ago; I make it up as needed.
>
>This isn't exactly how our ancestors practiced religion. Religions
>evolved
>to suit cultural needs, but it wasn't made up as needed.
Ummm, if that isn't a prime example of "make it up as needed," I don't
know what is! Carolyn :)
Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 08:34:08 -0400 (EDT)
From: "David R. Burwasser"
To: FIRE
Cc: gs01see@panther.gsu.edu
Subject: Re: FIRE: Re: discussion: Vigils
It already is a quote -- an aphorism, actually, going around the Pagan
community with which I have contact. Do with it as you will :)
(but don't attribute it to me!)
BB -- dB
On Wed, 19 Mar 1997, FIRE wrote:
> Date: Wed, 19 Mar 1997 22:55:20 -0500 (EST)
> From: Sarah E Elsbernd
> To: FIRE
> Subject: Re: FIRE: Re: discussion: Vigils
>
>
> > >I practice exactly the same religion as my ancestors did 50,000 years
> > >ago; I make it up as needed.
> Can I use this as a quote?
>
> :)
>
> __________________________
>
> May the Schwartz be with ya!
> -Spaceballs
>
>
>
Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 08:41:48 -0400 (EDT)
From: "David R. Burwasser"
To: FIRE
Cc: morrigan@aa.net
Subject: Re: FIRE: Re: discussion: Vigils
Danielle:
It would seem to my silly old linear left hemisphere that you have
contradicted yourself here. Care to explain further?
If the distinction you are making is time scale (multi-generation change
vs individual invention):
At least one religion has been "made up" on the time scale of one life
time, the Cargo Cults and their various permutations. Marvin Harris, "Our
Kind." (He has absolutely no interest in whatever shamanic process
produced the changes, which irritates me no end, but focuses on why the
changes were/are adaptive -- his thing.)
BB -- dB
Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 08:47:39 -0400 (EDT)
From: "David R. Burwasser"
To: FIRE
Cc: enchante@escape.com
Subject: Re: FIRE: Re: discussion: Vigils
Chums:
The 50,000 years ago line is a Pagan community joke that has evidently
not penetrated to all parts of the country.
My religion is a self-assembled collage of a number of already existing
bits & pieces that speak to me. I am not saying (per Brightshadow) that
it is exactly what anyone practiced two full polar precessions ago; I'm
saying the *process* is the same.
BB -- dB
Date: Thu, 20 Mar 97 10:49:42
From: "Skip, Josie, Julie, or Jenny"
To: FIRE
Subject: Neal Horsely
Thank you for your welcome Ripples. I can already tell that I'm going to
*love
being
part of this mailing list.
We don't get the AJC (crappy, expensive and right-wing), so please forgive
my
ignorance on this and for flooding you with questions. Who is Neal
Horsely (
an
unfortunately easy name to make fun of - g - but I'll behave)? Which
office is
he running
for? Is he a member of the state legislature? I'm familiar with all of
*our
federal and
state legislators, but I've not heard his name. Is he involved with
anything
other than
the anti-choice movement?
> Aparently some members of this
>group have contacted him in the hopes of discussing his beliefs and
>received nasty replies. I'm curious about this guy and while my husband
>states that he's probly not a threat, I want to keep an eye on him. He
>could become a political pain.
Hmmm. Personally, I think we're living in dangerous times, mostly because
the
millenium is ending and, as always happens at such times, some people,
"fearing
for
their eternal souls," can't take the pressure.
>As to the bomber...I'm just waiting for him to bomb my school or
>something... :(
Which school? Hopefully the authorities will catch up with him/her before
anymore
damage can be done.
>May you never thirst!
Lovely! Thank you, and you as well.
Be well.
Josie
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
/\ /\
"The Outlaw Pussycat" (. .)
> -^<
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 14:08:22 -0400 (EDT)
From: "David R. Burwasser"
To: CUUPS Board , dpollard@vnet.ibm.com,
jvanbece@carbon.cudenver.edu, KishHilde@earthlink.net, madler@npr.org,
MelanieSul@aol.com, psileo@hbs.edu, uther@drycas.club.cc.cmu.edu,
ws@undata.com, cuups-l
Cc: cuups-usa ,
Earth Religion Assistance List ,
FIRE
Subject: UU resolution would address Earth Religion rights
I have received an interesting letter and flyer from Rev. Robert
Murphy of the Unitarian Coastal Fellowship (UUA) of Morehead City,
NC. He is urging congregational and district support for a proposed
Study/Action Issue (resolution) on "Building Religious Tolerance
Through Interfaith Cooperation," being presented to the UUA with
hopes of securing enough support to put it on the UUA General
Assembly agenda this coming June.
Among the religious rights violations listed in the resolution text,
to justify the actions proposed, is (line 302):
"Members of new religious movements confront human rights violations."
This would be the first time the Unitarian Universalist Association,
and afaik any mainstream denomination, stepped up to the plate in
defense of Earth Religion religious rights.
New rules of the UUA permit adoption of only *one* Study/Action Issue
per year, so this must garner a wide spectrum of support for
religious freedom issues if it is to have a chance at all.
There is no email address in the mailing. Rev. Murphy may be
contacted at the Unitarian Coastal Fellowship, 1300 Evans Street,
Morehead City NC 28857; 919+808-3847.
Blessed be,
Dave Burwasser
(This message is also being posted to Earth Religion Assistance List
ERAL, and the Pagan/Wiccan anti-defamation list FIRE, as a matter
of general interest. Re-posting is encouraged.)
Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 15:46:54 -0400 (EDT)
From: "David R. Burwasser"
To: FIRE
Cc: zburwasser
Subject: Re: FIRE: discussion: Neal Horsely
Outlaw Pussycat writes:
<>
Hurrah! Somebody else sees this source of pressure on our biblical
literalist fellow citizens. Yes, these folks think they have about two
and an half years before they may face a Judgement of eternal import
about what they have done (or allowed to happen) in their lives. They are
sweating, and they are spreading the stress.
BB -- dB
Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 16:07:45 -0800
From: Danielle Ni/ Dhighe
To: FIRE , FIRE:;FIRE:;@aa.net
Subject: Re: FIRE: Re: discussion: Vigils
At 10:22 AM 3/20/97 -0800, FIRE wrote:
>>This isn't exactly how our ancestors practiced religion. Religions
>>evolved
>>to suit cultural needs, but it wasn't made up as needed.
>
>
>Ummm, if that isn't a prime example of "make it up as needed," I don't
>know what is! Carolyn :)
Evolution is different than just making it up as needed. Our ancestors
were generally religiously conservative and didn't look fondly on lots of
innovation.
**************************************************************************
Danielle Ni/ Dhighe * morrigan@aa.net * http://www.aa.net/~morrigan/
Visit the IMBAS Homepage: http://www.aa.net/~morrigan/imbas/
"Oh, you winds of love, help me! Will you take me to my homeland? I'm so
afraid that I will grow old in this land of exile." -- _Winds of Love_
**************************************************************************
Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 19:12:33 -0500
From: John Yohalem
To: FIRE
Subject: Re: FIRE: Media Alert: Fox's Buffy The Vampire Slayer
[The following text is in the "ISO-8859-1" character set]
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John Brightshadow Yohalem
enchante@escape.com
"Is nothing profane?"
----------
>
> On Sat, 15 Mar 1997, John Yohalem wrote:
>
> > For another thing, there are folks who do black magic and don't know
about
> > the Rede, and they call themselves witches, and so does everyone else.
> > Who's to say they aren't? If Buffy encountered a WICCAN who set
> > cheerleaders on fire, I think it would definitely be a matter to take
up
> > with her priestess.
to which Danica replied:
> I think the question we need to ask ourselves, as members of Fire, is
"how
> are we going to deal with the different uses of the word 'witch'?"
> personally, I feel that it *is* a problem that "witch" is used only to
> describe "people who make others burst into flame," because then the
> "wiccan-witch" community, and often the pagan community at large, gets
the
> flak for it. Do we
> (a) fight for recognition of "wiccan witches" as another equally valid
> kind of witch;
> (b) fight to change and reclaim the meaning of "witch" in the media;
> (c) leave that battle alone entirely, or
> (d) do something else I haven't thought of yet?
a) ongoing right now, under the aegis of Covenant of the Goddess's
Dictionary Project, which has had some success
b) If you mean cancel the old meaning, it can't be done. It was there; we
took the word; we don't get to change the meaning. "Reclaim" means witch
originally meant what we say it meant. It didn't. We have no records of
anything but unpleasant tinges to the meaning of the word until the end of
the nineteenth century. No one before this century ever called him/her
self
a witch. Magican, yes. Wisewoman, sure.
-- If you mean get the media to use the word more gingerly, that is
happening, slowly but steadily. Just go public with good stuff and don't
make weird claims, and the media will eventually notice the overwhelming
number of mentions.
c) write letters by all means, do public rituals and outreach, DON'T take
part in the panels set up by Fundies who will only dis you, but DO take
part in panels with respectable religions who really want to do Interfaith
work, and DON'T put THEM down when you do it.
d) sure; go for it.
JY
Date: Thu, 20 Mar 97 18:27:16 -0600
From: Eric Terrell
To: FIRE
Subject: Re: FIRE: Re: discussion: Vigils
On Wed, 19 Mar 1997 20:24:20 -0800 (PST), FIRE wrote:
>Date: Wed, 19 Mar 1997 20:10:20 -0800
>From: Danielle Ni/ Dhighe
>To: FIRE
>Subject: Re: FIRE: Re: discussion: Vigils
>
>>I practice exactly the same religion as my ancestors did 50,000 years
>>ago; I make it up as needed.
>
>This isn't exactly how our ancestors practiced religion. Religions
evolved
>to suit cultural needs, but it wasn't made up as needed.
>
>
And how did it evolve?? By people making it up as they
went along. Proof otherwise??
Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 19:36:07 EST
From: Carolyn E Cason
To: danica@mills.edu
Subject: Re: Media Alert: Fox's Buffy The Vampire Slayer
On Thu, 20 Mar 1997 14:44:56 -0800 (PST) FIRE writes:
>I think the question we need to ask ourselves, as members of Fire, is
>"how
>are we going to deal with the different uses of the word 'witch'?"
>personally, I feel that it *is* a problem that "witch" is used only to
>describe "people who make others burst into flame," because then the
>"wiccan-witch" community, and often the pagan community at large, gets
>the
>flak for it.
Personally, I use the words "Wiccan" and "Witch" interchangeably. Now, I
know that not everyone is comfortable with that, and I know that there
will be some responses to this posting trying to convince me that I'm
wrong, but that's where I am in my "faith." When I tell people that I am
Wiccan, they most often look at me with confusion, some going so far as
to ask me "What's that?" I clarify it by saying "I'm a witch." That
word may not bring up the best associations in their minds, but at least
I get across the point that my religion, my beliefs, my faith, etc., are
significantly different from theirs. I still hope that someday, someone
will go on to ask me about it, rather than just saying "Oh," and walking
away. When that day finally comes, I hope that I will be able to talk
about it intelligently, without proselytizing. Carolyn
Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 19:36:07 EST
From: Carolyn E Cason
To: danica@mills.edu
Subject: Re: discussion: Vigils
1) I practice exactly the same religion as my ancestors did 50,000
years
ago; I make it up as needed.
2) This isn't exactly how our ancestors practiced religion. Religions
evolved
to suit cultural needs, but it wasn't made up as needed.
I think this particular line of the discussion of the Ohio vigil is quite
interesting in that it reveals a great deal about what people pick up on
as important. Statement #2, made in response to the "historical" portion
of statement #1, clearly indicates that history, background, the roots of
things, etc., are far more important than - how shall I say? - "gut
reaction." I would venture to say that this person tends to be
analytical, left-brained. If you will recall my own reaction (which was
"yes, yes, yes, yes, yes!", or something to that effect) was in response
to the "make it up as needed" portion of statement #1. Those words
express exactly my approach to my religion, my "feelings" on it, if you
will. I have seen another response to statement #1 that falls in the
same category as my own, and I have seen at least one response to
statement #2 that goes on to analyze said statement. So, what does that
tell us about some of the people on this list? Well, I would venture to
say that it indicates highly educated (the statements above were made by
two of the more verbose people in the list), highly analytical,
politically active people mixing it up with highly educated, highly
emotional, politcally active people. Okay, that political stuff was
based on all the other postings I've read from this list. I just thought
it was interesting to see the way people think. And now, my friends, we
have gotten completely off the original subject. Carolyn :)
Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 16:43:42 -0700
From: Saphire Mann
To: FIRE
Subject: Re: FIRE: action: Beltane
[The following text is in the "iso-8859-1" character set]
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> Watching the 10 o'clock news after the X-Files one night, I saw that
the
>local Fox news station was doing a story on the Chinese New Year... and a
>few weeks later they did one on Ramadan... and it occurred to me that
that
>might be a good way to educate people. Around Halloween, a lot of news
>stations do their little five-minute "look! witches!" story, either
>tremendously boring with lots of what they inevitably call "white
witches"
>who have just enough to time tell what wicca is NOT, or else rather funky
>with lots of subtext, implications, and inaccuracies.
> It seems to me that it wouldn't be too hard to contact some of our
local
>news stations... and not just Americans necessarily, but anyone who wants
>to, since I'm sure they do this in New Zealand and Australia as well...
>and suggest to them that they do a Beltane story. After all, it's one of
>the major major holidays... we could put together a brief information
>packet for the news stations; attempt to get a local coven who's willing
>to have something videotaped, or put together a brief (under five
>minutes, I'd think) tape on the way Beltane tends to be celebrated; ask
>local pagans if they'd be willing to be quoted by the news station, shown
>saying something intelligent about witches and wicca and paganism...
>Any takers?
Yes, I'm game. I'm in San Diego. I envision sending out a "Press Release"
to my local print and broadcast media. They need 2-6 weeks lead time,
depending. So that means for any hope of timely publication it has to go
out next week.
I know there's a local Covenant of the Goddess circle here, but I'm not in
touch with them at this point. I'm solitary, personally, but I'd be
willing
to be quoted or whatever.
-Saphire Mann
Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 20:02:16 -0500 (EST)
From: Sarah E Elsbernd
To: FIRE
Subject: Re: FIRE: discussion: Neal Horsely
> ignorance on this and for flooding you with questions. Who is Neal
Horsely (
an
> unfortunately easy name to make fun of - g - but I'll behave)? Which
office
is he running
heh...agreed...he as a very unfortunate name! ;)
> for? Is he a member of the state legislature? I'm familiar with all of
*our
federal and
> state legislators, but I've not heard his name. Is he involved with
anything
other than
> the anti-choice movement?
>
I'm not sure what the answers are...someone else care to jump in?
> Which school? Hopefully the authorities will catch up with him/her
before
anymore
> damage can be done.
>
Georgia State...we get too many bomb threats as it is...hopefully if a
bomb is planted some student will call in a threat (as a joke or to get
outa a test, or for whatever reason) and the authorities will see the
bomb and dest it before it dests us!
Grins,
Ripples
__________________________
May the Schwartz be with ya!
-Spaceballs
Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 19:44:11 -0800
From: Danielle Ni/ Dhighe
To: FIRE
Subject: Re: FIRE: Re: discussion: Vigils
>And how did it evolve?? By people making it up as they
>went along. Proof otherwise??
I would like to think they were guided by their Gods. Only an atheist
would say that it was all made up by humans.
**************************************************************************
Danielle Ni/ Dhighe * morrigan@aa.net * http://www.aa.net/~morrigan/
Visit the IMBAS Homepage: http://www.aa.net/~morrigan/imbas/
"Oh, you winds of love, help me! Will you take me to my homeland? I'm so
afraid that I will grow old in this land of exile." -- _Winds of Love_
**************************************************************************
Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 23:11:17 -0400 (EDT)
From: "David R. Burwasser"
To: FIRE
Cc: zburwasser
Subject: Re: FIRE: action: Beltane
On Thu, 20 Mar 1997, FIRE wrote:
> It seems to me that it wouldn't be too hard to contact some of our
local
> news stations...
> we could put together a brief information
> packet for the news stations; attempt to get a local coven who's willing
> to have something videotaped, or put together a brief (under five
> minutes, I'd think) tape on the way Beltane tends to be celebrated; ask
> local pagans if they'd be willing to be quoted by the news station,
shown
> saying something intelligent about witches and wicca and paganism...
Allow me to suggest an alternative.
Credentials first: I did a modest amount of media work in Cleveland
before decamping to Oberlin.
The alternative is based on the pessimistic assumption that broadcast
media people are just as lazy and prejudiced as print media people. Sorry
to be so blunt, but I follow the lead of the godfather of community
organizing, Saul Alinsky: "Start where the people are at."
The alternative: Scare up our own video crew, and make our *own* coverage
of a well-done, well-attended, interfaith (our faiths) public Beltane
ritual. If possible, some couple gets Handfasted as the central mystery.
(My wife & I did this in the first-ever public Beltane in Oberlin
history [1835-present].)
Then, using the same video crew, we put on a talking-heads panel about
Beltane, Samhain, and the overall flavor of neoPaganism.
Armed with these tapes, we go to the local TV station and make them
available as backdrop for the station's invited coverage of Samhain 1997.
The conduct of the Beltane ritual gives an idea of what will be
happening, and of the demeanor of the participants, which in turn
indicates what kind of media obtrusiveness will be tolerated.
The camera blo-dries -- excuse me -- broadcast journalists can cop
pieces of the talking heads footage and interpose their own gorgeous
visages to give the impression that they pulled off a brilliant
interview. Let 'em; it gets their cooperation and gives them a
seriousness standard to aim at.
No, I never did any of this myself; I was a gofer and a talking head the
time we tried it in Cleveland. This is what I would do if we had it to do
over, if we had the resources, and if I were in charge (in yer dreams,
David...)
The camera, video-edit, and panel crews might keep this in mind: This is a
form of spellcasting, with the strength of Will and of Tech behind it.
Blessed be,
Dave Burwasser
Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 23:42:00 EST
From: Carolyn E Cason
To: danica@mills.edu
Subject: Re: discussion: Vigils
On Thu, 20 Mar 1997 19:28:56 -0800 (PST) FIRE writes:
>Evolution is different than just making it up as needed. Our
>ancestors
>were generally religiously conservative and didn't look fondly on lots
>of
>innovation.
I get the impression that you think of "make it up as needed" as a
fly-by-the-seat-of-your-pants, running-full-tilt-at-windmills,
kindergarten-children-at-play type of thing. I hope this doesn't sound
*too* crazy (hopefully some of you will understand!), but I "see" your
statements with bright orange and yellow backgrounds - playful, none too
serious colors, as if that is what you think others are thinking. Surely
you understand that even the most dramatic scripts must first be written?
Think of it in terms of calm, dark blues and purples (I associate
Catholicism here). Slow, steady, carefully thought out, rich with
deepest meanings and ceremony. No matter how slowly changes
("evolution") occur, each change must first be "made up as needed." Each
person approaches this religion, this set of philosophical ideals and
beliefs, differently, but EVERYONE I have met on this path adjusts the
rituals, the beliefs - even the tools - to suit themselves, make
themselves comfortable. Whether you say that you follow your ancestors'
religion by making it up as needed or by letting it evolve, you are
actually saying the same thing. No matter how you describe this
religion, it's still beautiful in my eyes! Carolyn :)
Date: Thu, 20 Mar 97 23:46:52
From: "Skip, Josie, Julie, or Jenny"
To: FIRE
Subject: Re: FIRE: discussion: Neal Horsely
>Georgia State...we get too many bomb threats as it is...hopefully if a
>bomb is planted some student will call in a threat (as a joke or to get
>outa a test, or for whatever reason) and the authorities will see the
>bomb and dest it before it dests us!
Ooch! I hope they catch him before it comes down to that.
I went out today and trained as a clinic escort (Midtown). It really
wasn't
bad: they're
loud and their signs are disgusting ( really, when I was RW I protected my
kids
from that
kind of vindictive, nasty stuff - to me such stuff is intensely *dis
respectful
of life), but
it was kind of like women's basketball. Apparently the police keep them
pretty
much in
line here so they don't get violent. Of course, there's always,
potentially,
that *one
time...
May I ask, what are you studying?
I looked for Neal Horsley info on the net and wasn't able to turn up
anything.
Can
anyone point me in a direction?
Gesundheit!
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
/\ /\
(. .) "The Outlaw Pussycat"
> -^<
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 22:23:41 -0800
From: Danielle Ni/ Dhighe
To: FIRE
Subject: Re: FIRE: Re: discussion: Vigils
At 10:03 PM 3/20/97 -0800, Carolyn E Cason wrote:
>I get the impression that you think of "make it up as needed" as a
>fly-by-the-seat-of-your-pants, running-full-tilt-at-windmills,
>kindergarten-children-at-play type of thing.
No, not at all. There is definitely a place for innovation and
experientialism in Neo-Paganism.
>person approaches this religion, this set of philosophical ideals and
>beliefs, differently, but EVERYONE I have met on this path adjusts the
>rituals, the beliefs - even the tools - to suit themselves, make
>themselves comfortable.
I am a Celtic Reconstructionist Pagan and we tend to be very conservative
when it comes to following our ancestral religion. It's not a better way
than what others do, just a different way.
**************************************************************************
Danielle Ni/ Dhighe * morrigan@aa.net * http://www.aa.net/~morrigan/
Visit the IMBAS Homepage: http://www.aa.net/~morrigan/imbas/
"Oh, you winds of love, help me! Will you take me to my homeland? I'm so
afraid that I will grow old in this land of exile." -- _Winds of Love_
**************************************************************************
Date: Fri, 21 Mar 1997 02:04:57 -0400 (EDT)
From: "David R. Burwasser"
To: FIRE
Cc: zburwasser
Subject: Re: FIRE: Re: discussion: Vigils
On Thu, 20 Mar 1997, FIRE (Danielle) wrote:
>
> >And how did it evolve?? By people making it up as they
> >went along. Proof otherwise??
>
> I would like to think they were guided by their Gods. Only an atheist
> would say that it was all made up by humans.
I have seen the head of Grandmother Mammoth emerging from my northwall.
I have seen the head of Grandmother Bison emerging in the same location.
I have been overwhelmed by an epiphanal vision of how two quarreling
children of the same Goddess were forced to make peace. I have been
guided by emotional intuition to create a space for Pagan Moms to talk
about how the rituals of their religion seems to have no place for
small children (I provided child care during their sessions). I have been
drawn by the same force to create a Unitarian Universalist Samhain
service that is celebrated, as part of the regular Sunday morning worship
cycles, in a number of UU congregations in NE Ohio.
People have come into my life, since I became a Pagan, with
ever-increasing
levels of woundedness, which in my ignorance and incompetence I have
somehow helped to heal; the only way I can make sense of this is in
terms of a training program: I have an Assignment to be a Healer, and I
have a pretty good idea Who assigned it. (Silly man; I stood in my
private ritual space and *asked* Her for an assignment.)
This is what I mean by making it up as needed. I daresay I am heeding the
guidance of the Goddess as faithfully as any of our ancestors. Because I
live in a time when the major religions damn the things I hold sacred,
and when the minor religious movements are full of their own brittle
certainties and transparent pseudo-histories, I am forced to do for
myself the work that a real cultural tradition would carry out over
several generations. Thus, the first person singular in "I" make it up.
I hope your Gods are as communicative with you as mine have been with me,
and wish you the strength required to keep up your end of the
conversation.
(If you have difficulty along that line, talk to me. There are ways.)
Blessed be,
Dave Burwasser
(still making it up)
Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 23:38:54 -0800
From: Tatianna
To: Madame Blue ,
Lady Angel Winges
Cc: Winter Birch , Teal ,
Sonia , Sherry ,
Shadowolf ,
"sarah K." ,
"Sarah G." , nick ,
Marah , Laura ,
Lacey , JMcFri@aol.com, FIRE ,
Erin Lynn Stewart ,
Cat Weismann , Anth Link
Subject: PARADISE LOST (the movie)
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[Some characters may be displayed incorrectly]
Hello all... I wanted to find out if any of you have also seen Paradise
Lost:The Child Murders at Robin Hood Hills?? I just saw it tonight and it
left me in a rage. I can not believe that they convicted those boys with
no
evidence and with so many questions about the facts. So many facts pointed
to someone else doing the murders yet two boys are in jail facing life
sentences and one is one death row, sentenced to die by leathal
injection... Do we really live in this tyoe of country? A country where if
you live in a small comunity and look, act, or believe differently you
have
to be frightened for your life? Because the police lost evidence that may
have proven these boys not guilty, because the police did not investigate
a
man with mud on his shoes, blood on his arms and hands a short distance
away from the murder site no one knows if they really killed those three
eight year old boys!! Because the police were being pressured by the town
to arrest someone they picked the most weird and different boys possible
as
their suspects, threw them in jail and generally fucked up the
investigation from there on out.. How can this happen in a country that is
supposed to be so wonderful? A country that is supposed to have a model
Justice system?? I didn't see any justice in this case at all, not in the
movie and not in the other information I have read. I am sorry for
going
off on this but I am soo ANGRY right now that I needed to rant some
where... If any of you saw this film please let me know what you thought
of
it...
Love and Brightest Blessings,
Tatianna
HPss First Temple of American Witchcraft,ULC
www.oocities.org/Athens/Acropolis/5491/
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Truth is always realitive to those who speak it.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 15:16:44 -0500
From: Lowell & Nancy McFarland
To: FIRE
Cc: mcfarlan@mail1.nai.net
Subject: Hill of Tara Anniversary
The Hill of Tara
"...the holy city of Tara was founded on this day by the Milesian
princesses Tea and Telphi." March 21.
Pagan Book of Days, Nigel Pennick, ISBN 0-89281-369-5
Happy Anniversary Tea.
Thank you for timeless beauty.
For more information;
http://www.almac.co.uk/es/dalriada/myths/mythol/tara.html
http://www.ripi.ie/guest/rosgraer/tara.htm
http://joshua.micronet.it/utenti/dmeozzi/ireland/Inglese/Tara.html
http://slarti.ucd.ie/pilots/archaeology/hoards2.html
http://www.nccn.net/~wwithin/irel.htm
http://www.lcs.net/users/rneill/anc.htm
Loch Sloy!
Nancy & Lowell McFarland mcfarlan@ct1.nai.net
Date: Fri, 21 Mar 1997 03:05:37 -0800
From: Bridey
To: FIRE
Cc: "FIRE:;"@mills.edu
Subject: Re: FIRE: discussion: Neal Horsely
FIRE wrote:
> Date: Thu, 20 Mar 97 23:46:52
> From: "Skip, Josie, Julie, or Jenny"
> To: FIRE
> Subject: Re: FIRE: discussion: Neal Horsely
>
> I looked for Neal Horsley info on the net and wasn't able to turn up
anything. Can
> anyone point me in a direction?
>
=========================================
I'll warn you now - this is a horrible site and he has up a photo of an
alleged decapitated head of an aborted fetus. I would not let young
children look at this one. His URL is:
http://www.christiangallery.com/linkone.shtml
By the by, an interesting note to anyone that's written him regarding
his views and his Web site. Horsely has added a link to emails messages
that he's received. It seems he's just posted excerpts without names,
but ya'll might want to check that out.
--
Blessed Be!
Bridey
~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~
However far my eye may wander Thou standest before me, for the heavens
and the splendour of the stars are Thy image.---Hala Satavahana
~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~
Ac dixit Corvus, "Numquam postea!"
Date: Fri, 21 Mar 1997 06:04:04 -0600 (CST)
From: Christina Van Spoor
To: FIRE
Subject: Re: FIRE: Re: discussion: Vigils
At 07:31 PM 3/20/97 -0800, you wrote:
>>>I practice exactly the same religion as my ancestors did 50,000 years
>>>ago; I make it up as needed.
>>
>>This isn't exactly how our ancestors practiced religion. Religions
evolved
>>to suit cultural needs, but it wasn't made up as needed.
>>
>
>And how did it evolve?? By people making it up as they
>went along. Proof otherwise??
Absolutlely. Check out 'Conceptions of God In Ancient Egypt: The One &
The
Many" by Erick Hornung and while you're at it, why not take a look at
"Religion in Egypt" by Shafer, Baines, Lesko & Silverman. The Ancient
Egyptian Religion was unchanged for literally thousands of years, there
was
no "winging it" or "making it up as you go along". Everything was
extremely
dogmatic and prescribed and done the same way over and over and over
again,
(Gods, can you imagine the residual energy?) that is, until the foreign
invasions of the Hyksos, Greeks and Romans, then they started to "wing
it".
Another "religion" that people like to think got made up as they went,
were
the religions of the First Nations (Native Americans). The only thing
that
makes them more angry than land issues and indigenous rights issues is for
a
Wiccan , "Neo" Pagan or New Ager to take one of their Sacred Ceremonies
and
"apapt it" for their own use and then teach it in a seminar as some
'Native
Ceremony'! Sun Bear, Brook "Medicine Eagle" and Lynn Andrews (amongst
others ) have caught all kinds of hell for doing that!
I think the key here that is all to often forgotten is to learn your
history and respect the Traditions of those whose religions have stood
the
test of time.
Em hotep!
Christina
"The greatest bounties given to us are judgement and will;
happy are they that misplaceth them not." - an Ancient Egyptian proverb
http://www.netins.net/showcase/ankh
Date: Fri, 21 Mar 1997 10:56:29 -0500
From: John Yohalem
To: FIRE
Subject: Re: FIRE: Re: discussion: Vigils
[The following text is in the "ISO-8859-1" character set]
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John Brightshadow Yohalem
enchante@escape.com
"Is nothing profane?"
----------
> On Thu, 20 Mar 1997 19:28:56 -0800 (PST) FIRE writes:
> >Evolution is different than just making it up as needed. Our
> >ancestors
> >were generally religiously conservative and didn't look fondly on lots
> >of
> >innovation.
>
> I get the impression that you think of "make it up as needed" as a
> fly-by-the-seat-of-your-pants, running-full-tilt-at-windmills,
> kindergarten-children-at-play type of thing. Surely
> even the most dramatic scripts must first be written?
> Slow, steady, carefully thought out, rich with
> deepest meanings and ceremony. No matter how slowly changes
> ("evolution") occur, each change must first be "made up as needed."
Each
> person approaches this religion, this set of philosophical ideals and
> beliefs, differently, but EVERYONE I have met on this path adjusts the
> rituals, the beliefs - even the tools - to suit themselves, make
> themselves comfortable. Whether you say that you follow your ancestors'
> religion by making it up as needed or by letting it evolve, you are
> actually saying the same thing. Carolyn :)
>
I have never heard of any religion that was not syncretistic -- that is,
it
is based on other religions, bits of which are kept while others are
discarded. Zoroastrianism, Judaism and Christianity have oodles of Pagan
bits; Islam has oodles of Judaism and Christianity, as well as the Pagan
Ka'aba. The Mormons got all their ceremonial from the Masons (so did the
Golden Dawn, from whom Crowley got it for the O.T.O. and Gardner got it
for
Wicca) and all their theology from a late 18th century science fiction
novel. CAW got its theology from a mid 20th century science fiction novel.
So, far less frankly, have the Scientologists. Irish and Norse Paganisms,
as we receive them, borrowed a lot from the Greeks and Romans. And, of
course, Neo-Pagans have borrowed a tremendous amount from the surrounding
Christian culture, though we don't like to believe it.
I have been very amused (having been brought up in a household with no
religion) to see traces of their birth religions in the take on
Paganism/Wicca of so many of the Pagans/Witches I have met: what they want
to keep, what they want to discard, how their relationship with that
upbringing makes them either savagely hate or romantically recall the
previous faith. You can guess the upbringing of any Neo-Pagan who hates
Christianity -- Jewitches are just not very interested in it. Unitarians
and Quakers are still sort of attached to their birth religion -- and why
not?
So yes, we make it up, and we borrow. Mostly we borrow. And whatever we
borrow goes through a template not of our own making, instilled in us
before we had much choice. Like the Catholic church cobbled together by
disparate former Jews and Greek philosophers and Pagan priests, it's going
to be unique, and it's not going to be homogeneous. The mistake of the
Catholics (but it's a very human thing, not a Catholic thing alone) is in
trying to make their religion homogeneous when it clearly comes from such
heterogeneous roots.
Brightshadow
Date: Fri, 21 Mar 97 13:15:31
From: "Skip, Josie, Julie, or Jenny"
To: FIRE
Subject: Re: FIRE: discussion: Neal Horsely
Hi David.
>Outlaw Pussycat writes:
><the millenium is ending and, as always happens at such times, some
>people, "fearing for their eternal souls," can't take the pressure.>>
>
>Hurrah! Somebody else sees this source of pressure on our biblical
>literalist fellow citizens. Yes, these folks think they have about two
>and an half years before they may face a Judgement of eternal import
>about what they have done (or allowed to happen) in their lives. They are
>sweating, and they are spreading the stress.
Yes. The philosophy "Christian Reconstructionism" (of which it sounds
like Horsely is an adherent) seems to be gaining in popularity, which is,
I
believe,
part of the situation. Not that long ago religious conservatives were
talking
about "the
Rapture," now they all seem to be gravitating towards the notion that
Christ
won't return
until the earth is "prepared" by making it a right-wing-religious
theocracy.
They also
seem to be really annoyed that they lost the battle between democracy and
theocracy
to Jefferson and Franklin. People like Pat Robertson appear to have
looked at
the past Rapture fads at the end of each millenium and said "Hm, maybe we
should try
a different approach." The net result is that the focus seems to be
shifting
from the
"worthy" preparing themselves to leave the rest of us behind, to forcing
"every
knee [to]
bow and every tongue [to] confess." That's my perception anyway.
Be well. Josie
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
/\ /\
(. .) "The Outlaw Pussycat"
> -^<
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Date: Fri, 21 Mar 97 13:39:29
From: "Skip, Josie, Julie, or Jenny"
To: FIRE
Subject: Neal Horsely web site?
Hi Brightshadow. Hopefully I've successfully changed the subject on this
message so
that I'm not interupting another (very interesting) conversation.
Do you have the name of the website, or the URL that may be associated
with
Horsely? Is this also the "Nuremburg" website that was being discussed?
I'm
just
trying to stay at least semi-informed .
Thanks. Josie
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
/\ /\
(. .) "The Outlaw Pussycat"
> -^<
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Date: Fri, 21 Mar 1997 14:00:30, -0500
From: MS FAITH M BURKS
To: danica@mills.edu
Subject: Re: Welcome!
-- [ From: Faith Burks * EMC.Ver #2.5.3 ] --
MM all!
I'm terribly sorry about not getting my intro up here sooner, but I am a
student and I work so it has been hard trying to find the time.:) Now
it is Spring Break and I am trying to get all caught up on my mail.
I've been subscribed to this list for about a month now and I've found
all the posts very interesting. My craft name is Kestrel and I've been
practicing Wicca for about 3 years now. I follow a Celtic and Faery
tradition, which I just started so I don't know much yet, but I'm
learning. As I said I go to school at a local community college where I
am taking my general ed courses and then I will transfer to a four year
(haven't decided where yet) I also hope to begin a correspondence
course in herbology. I've studied and practiced herbal medicine now for
about three years also. I am the co-founder and co-chairperson of the
Iowa Witches' Alliance and I've been dealing with a discrimination
situation here in my home town. It has been interesting, to say the
least, and the two girls who were discriminated against seem to not want
anyone involved, even though they asked for help. I've been helping
them as much as they will let me and I think now they are seeking legal
recourse.
That about does it for now. I look forward to reading more posts:)
Blessed Be
Kestrel
Co-chairperson Iowa Witches' Alliance
Date: Fri, 21 Mar 1997 15:57:01 -0400 (EDT)
From: "David R. Burwasser"
To: FIRE
Cc: zburwasser
Subject: Re: FIRE: Re: discussion: Vigils
Brightshadow writes:
<>
I cannot say anything about Quakers, but as to Unitarian Universalists --
this is quite true, in both senses that Brightshadow describes.
Some 90% of UUs come into it from other faiths (and since the ongoing
heritage Unitarian churches are regionally concentrated, that will be
closer to 99% for the median UU congregation continent-wide). Many of us
arrive with our firmest spiritual identification being that of *not*
being the person our heritage churches tried to make us. Sad to say, too
many UUs never get beyond this phase (though if they did, they might go
back as those heritage churches reform their practice and/or theology).
The "ideal" UU path (if such can be asserted in a creedless denomination)
is to pick & choose from one's heritage theology, and add to it from what
one encounters throughout life. Since UU-ism has no creed, a UU
congregation is a "safe house" in which to do this. (Eg, I became a Pagan
while the president of a rather Humanist UU congregation.)
Sometimes UU-ism is a stepping stone. I recall one lady who went on to
become a Quaker. And a couple who arrived because they had lost their
spouses and their heritage churches just had no social space for a
non-coupled person. They met under UU auspices, got engaged, and went
back to a more conservative venue as a couple.
Some UUs continue to celebrate their heritage theologies. The UU
Christian Felowship was founded (as the Unitarian Christian Fellowship)
to keep alive the Unitarian Christian heritage, but it has been leavened
by Christians who find the freedom they need in a UU congregation, but it
is the freedom to be the kind of Christian they feel called to be, who
just didn't fit in any of the other slots.
Another affiliate organization is the UUs for Jewish Awareness. They
continue to follow the cycle of Jewish holidays, preserve "Jewish"
cooking (another area of mass syncretism we needn't get into here), etc.
They exhibit a great breadth of theology -- but so do Jews who stay Jews.
The Covenant of UU Pagans and the UU Buddhist Fellowship are
organizationally parallel to the others two, but there are few "heritage
neoPagans" in the sense of birth-faith anywhere, and it is my impression
that most of the UU Buddhists -- like most North American Buddhists --
came to it as adults.
The Friends of Religious Humanism (formerly Fellowship of Religious
Humanists) are a mix -- some heritage Humanists and some "born-again"
Humanists (who would wince at that term; please don't tell them I used
it).
In sum: Brightshadow is dead on the mark about this aspect of UU-ism. The
parallel with Paganism is piquant. I would say that the biggest
differences are that, deriving from the merger of two pre-existing
once-Christian denominations, the UUs have a much stronger institutional
presence than the Pagans. And that the variety to be found at a Pagan
regional festival is greater than in a UU congregation of the same size,
because the variety that is found continent-wide among UUs is found in
every major city among Pagans.
Blessed be,
Dave Burwasser
CUUPS Board Member Emeritus
Date: Fri, 21 Mar 1997 19:57:07 -0500 (EST)
From: Sarah E Elsbernd
To: FIRE
Subject: Re: FIRE: discussion: Neal Horsely
> I went out today and trained as a clinic escort (Midtown). It really
wasn't
bad: they're
Sounds good...never thought of doing something like that...I could see how
it might get dangerous..but I played girls bball too!!
>
> May I ask, what are you studying?
psychology...wanna help survivors of child abuse.
>
> I looked for Neal Horsley info on the net and wasn't able to turn up
anything. Can
> anyone point me in a direction?
ya..I wanna know too!
:)
Since you are so close, maybe we could get together some time? Seems like
we have lots to talk about! :)
Ripples
__________________________
May the Schwartz be with ya!
-Spaceballs
Date: Sat, 22 Mar 1997 06:53:17 -0600 (CST)
From: Christina Van Spoor
To: FIRE
Subject: Left Hand Path
At 07:05 PM 3/16/97 -0800, you wrote:
>
>> Could you please give me some info on what the Left hand Path sect is
all
about? I am unfamiliar with the term. Thanks.
Left Hand Path could be what is considered Diabolism, Satanism,
Discordianism, some of the work with Lilith or Kali or even my particular
Netjer (Goddess) Sekhmet.
LHP works mostly with the Darker elements of Paganism. Some people lump
Diabolism, Satanism, the worship of Kali etc. As Left Hand Path (LHP)that
may or may not be true depending on one's definition. (Isn't that true of
everything?) Mainly it encompasses the working with the 'darker' more
destructive parts or aspects of Nature. It is oftentimes erroneously
labeled as simply 'evil', when indeed like any magickal working the
choices
and intended uses lie solely in the hands of the practitioner.
Wicca, so-called "White" Witchcraft from whatever tradition, anything that
works more with the lighter aspects of nature and Deity.
Em hotep!
Christina
"The greatest bounties given to us are judgement and will;
happy are they that misplaceth them not." - an Ancient Egyptian proverb
http://www.netins.net/showcase/ankh
Date: Sat, 22 Mar 1997 05:50:44 -0800 (PST)
From: Wendy Cook
To: danica@mills.edu
Subject: Re: FIRE: discussion: Neal Horsely
>Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 19:34:35 -0800 (PST)
>From: FIRE
>To: FIRE:;
>Subject: Re: FIRE: discussion: Neal Horsely
>Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 20:02:16 -0500 (EST)
>From: Sarah E Elsbernd
>To: FIRE
>Subject: Re: FIRE: discussion: Neal Horsely
>
>> ignorance on this and for flooding you with questions. Who is Neal
Horsely
( an
>> unfortunately easy name to make fun of - g - but I'll behave)? Which
office
is he running
>
>heh...agreed...he as a very unfortunate name! ;)
>
>> for? Is he a member of the state legislature? I'm familiar with all
of
*our federal and
>> state legislators, but I've not heard his name. Is he involved with
anything other than
>> the anti-choice movement?
>>
>I'm not sure what the answers are...someone else care to jump in?
>
Sure, he will run for governor of Georgia and attempt to secede the state
from
the Union.
-Cook
Date: Sat, 22 Mar 1997 22:13:36 -0500 (EST)
From: XDIGIT@aol.com
To: danica@mills.edu
Subject: Re: FIRE: Media Alert: Fox's Buffy The Vampire Slayer
correct me if i am wrong dosent Witch mean someone who uses magick...
Date: Sat, 22 Mar 1997 22:39:06 -0500 (EST)
From: XDIGIT@aol.com
To: danica@mills.edu
Subject: Re: Media Alert: Fox's Buffy The Vampire Slayer
Witch and wiccan are 2 seperate words...i dont think they should be
interchanged
Date: Sun, 23 Mar 1997 15:34:19 -0400 (EDT)
From: "David R. Burwasser"
To: FIRE
Cc: zburwasser
Subject: Re: FIRE: Re: discussion: Vigils
On Sun, 23 Mar 1997, FIRE wrote:
> Date: Fri, 21 Mar 1997 06:04:04 -0600 (CST)
> From: Christina Van Spoor
> >
> >And how did it evolve?? By people making it up as they
>went along. Proof otherwise??
>
> Absolutlely. Check out 'Conceptions of God In Ancient Egypt: The One &
The
> Many" by Erick Hornung and while you're at it, why not take a look at
> "Religion in Egypt" by Shafer, Baines, Lesko & Silverman. The Ancient
> Egyptian Religion was unchanged for literally thousands of years, there
was
> no "winging it" or "making it up as you go along". Everything was
extremely
> dogmatic and prescribed and done the same way over and over and over
again,
You'll pardon, I trust, a modest skepticism on my part? Serious digging
into texts like Genesis have found overlay upon overlay of edits,
rewrites, adaptations, mergers of disparate fragments into "unified"
texts, addenda centuries more recent than that to which they are
appended, etc. Claims of immutable creed and practice can never be taken
at face value, because that is all they are -- the uppermost face of a
structure that penetrates back into time concealed by the shadow of that
uppermost face.
The Bible gets this kind of treatment because of pent-up demand: It was
worth one's life to ask such questions for over a millennium and a half,
and the last 150 years have been intense compensation time. The sacred
texts of the minor religious have not gotten this kind of treatment
because nobody thinks they are important enough. If the goals of FIRE, of
being taken more seriously, are met with the success we all hope for, our
sacred texts are going to get the same deconstruction.
(Actually, that has already started intramurally, with Pagan linguists
picking apart Gerald Gardner's "ancient" texts and finding 20th Century
anthologizing of 15th Century wordforms to embody a supposed BC rite.)
> The only thing that makes [Native Americans]
> more angry than land issues and indigenous rights issues is for a
> Wiccan , "Neo" Pagan or New Ager to take one of their Sacred Ceremonies
and
> "apapt it" for their own use and then teach it in a seminar as some
'Native
> Ceremony'! Sun Bear, Brook "Medicine Eagle" and Lynn Andrews (amongst
> others ) have caught all kinds of hell for doing that!
This anger is rightly focused, on fraud. I have participated in a ritual
based on a First Nation sweat lodge, but there is no way I can say I have
"experienced a Native sweat lodge," because I was not born into or raised
in the culture of which that ceremony is a part. I can participate in
something derived from it for my benefit, and experience what it evokes
from my sacred inwardness. If it were offered to me on any other basis
that would be fraud, and if I were to accept that fraud I would be a fool.
(My experience of a Brook Medicine Eagle weekend was on the honest
basis of derivation and evocation I have just outlined. I see no reason
to put her name in quotes, any more than the name of Muhammed Ali.)
In all diplomacy, I must say I would pass the same judgement on myself if
I were to fall into such a trap regarding Celtic or Egyptian practice.
> I think the key here that is all to often forgotten is to learn your
> history and respect the Traditions of those whose religions have stood
the
> test of time.
I will not deny the spiritual benefits that flow to those who follow this
dao if that is how their souls work. My awareness of how history is
revised and how test results are adapted, forces me into a more
personalistic path.
Perhaps a more positive way of putting this is: It is not necessary for
the seeker with a naturally skeptical bent of mind to give up seeking.
Blessed be,
Dave Burwasser
Date: Sun, 23 Mar 97 18:03:01
From: "Skip, Josie, Julie, or Jenny"
To: FIRE
Subject: Re: FIRE: discussion: Neal Horsely
On Sun, 23 Mar 1997 10:44:53 -0800
(PST), FIRE wrote:
>Date: Fri, 21 Mar 1997 03:05:37 -0800
>From: Bridey
>To: FIRE
>Cc: "FIRE:;"@mills.edu
>Subject: Re: FIRE: discussion: Neal
Horsely
>
>FIRE wrote:
>
>> Date: Thu, 20 Mar 97 23:46:52
>> From: "Skip, Josie, Julie, or Jenny"
>> To: FIRE
>> Subject: Re: FIRE: discussion: Neal
Horsely
>>
>> I looked for Neal Horsley info on the
net and wasn't able to turn up anything.
Can
>> anyone point me in a direction?
>>
>==============================
===========
>I'll warn you now - this is a horrible site
and he has up a photo of an
>alleged decapitated head of an aborted
fetus. I would not let young
>children look at this one. His URL is:
>
>http://www.christiangallery.com/linkone.
shtml
>
>By the by, an interesting note to anyone
that's written him regarding
>his views and his Web site. Horsely has
added a link to emails messages
>that he's received. It seems he's just
posted excerpts without names,
>but ya'll might want to check that out.
>--
>Blessed Be!
>Bridey
>~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~
^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~
>However far my eye may wander Thou
standest before me, for the heavens
> and the splendour of the stars are Thy
image.---Hala Satavahana
>~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~
^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~
>
>Ac dixit Corvus, "Numquam postea!"
>
>
*
* * *
* * *
* * *
* * * * Ad Astra * * * *
* * *
Date: Sun, 23 Mar 97 18:11:53
From: "Skip, Josie, Julie, or Jenny"
To: FIRE
Subject: Re: FIRE: discussion: Neal Horsely
>I'll warn you now - this is a horrible site and he has up a photo of an
>alleged decapitated head of an aborted fetus. I would not let young
>children look at this one. His URL is:
>
>http://www.christiangallery.com/linkone.shtml
Thank you Bridey. I believe I've seen that one. It looks like a monkey
fetus
or infant?
Either way it is a painful, disqusting photo and I don't have much use for
the
kind of
person who tries to get political mileage off of such things.
Nevertheless, I must see for myself - It's my curse .
Thanks again, Good health to you. Josie
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
/\ /\
(. .) "The Outlaw Pussycat"
> -^<
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Date: Sun, 23 Mar 97 18:29:33
From: "Skip, Josie, Julie, or Jenny"
To: FIRE
Subject: Re: FIRE: discussion: PARADISE LOST (the movie)
Hi Tatianna,
>How can this happen in a country that is
>supposed to be so wonderful? A country that is supposed to have a model
>Justice system?? I didn't see any justice in this case at all, not in the
>movie and not in the other information I have read.
I haven't seen the film yet, but hope it will come to the video stores or
at
least *one
of the theatres. Our current legal system is anything but "just" at this
point. Rather
it is a game between lawyers in which "winning" has nothing to do with
fairness
or
the lives of the people involved.
I understand your anger ( I had difficulty not flying into a rage over the
"partial-birth-abortion" ban hearings on C-span last week). The rage is
useful
when it
leads us to action. We here can make a difference, by writing letters, by
educating our
neighbors and by joining our energy for positive change.
Of course, you all know that which is why you're here.
I'm only learning about my new found spirituality, but I've always
believed
that people
can accomplish so much more than they realize, through means that we've
been
told to believe that we don't (or shouldn't) have.
Keep on getting angry neighbor. I'll be angry with you. It is precisely
our
"barbaric
owp" that will help those young men, and so many others like them.
Josie
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
/\ /\
(. .) "The Outlaw Pussycat"
> -^<
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Date: Sun, 23 Mar 97 19:04:25 -0600
From: Eric Terrell
To: FIRE
Subject: Re: FIRE: Re: discussion: Vigils
On Thu, 20 Mar 1997 19:28:56 -0800 (PST), FIRE wrote:
>Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 16:07:45 -0800
>From: Danielle Ni/ Dhighe
>To: FIRE , FIRE:;FIRE:;@aa.net
>Subject: Re: FIRE: Re: discussion: Vigils
>
>At 10:22 AM 3/20/97 -0800, FIRE wrote:
>>>This isn't exactly how our ancestors practiced religion. Religions
>>>evolved
>>>to suit cultural needs, but it wasn't made up as needed.
>>
>>
>>Ummm, if that isn't a prime example of "make it up as needed," I don't
>>know what is! Carolyn :)
>
>Evolution is different than just making it up as needed. Our ancestors
>were generally religiously conservative and didn't look fondly on lots of
>innovation.
Evolution is adapting to the environment around you or not
as the case may be. Those that adapt move on...those that
don't, don't. So, how does it differ from making it up as
needed??
If you can validate your statement about the conservative
nature of our ancestors, I would like to see it.
Statements made without proof are of little worth.
My Northern European ancestors relied on wisemen to provide
the law and to guide them. Those wisemen used the common
sense the Gods gave them to lead their people, and had
little problems with new innovations.
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