I guess they're kind of mixed. You know, I'm not anti-progressive and I realize things change with the times. If have a negative, it would be about the level of  technical skills and the tv story lines.  But look at the ratings - I can't deny those. But if the wrestlers being featured were technically sound, and if the story lines were solid, then I think the ratings would go even higher. That's my biggest problem....the story lines - everything has to be sexual, or there have to be 10 minute Interviews! On the other hand, I wish we had had entrance music when I was in it.

How do you explain the transition from the sort of wrestling you did to wrestling as it is today?

Honestly, I think there are people in the driver's seat that don't understand the business. I think the reason that they're more into glitz, glamour and interviews is because skill isn't being featured. It's kind of like business is not bad  - but the business of baseball isn't bad either.  I also realize that there are pitchers in the major leagues that should be in double a.  I think, with our business, the guys don't have a training ground.  When I was in it, there were around 20 Territories across the country and you could perfect your craft, and learn your trade, and work your way up to the top of the promotion.

Take Goldberg, for example.  Is he talented? Certainly not!  I think he has a lot of potential, but his negatives have to be protected and covered, as well as his positives exploited.  They tell me he's a good guy, which I'm sure he is. You know, years ago, a guy had to wrestle a year, two years, learning his craft. And then they bust him out. He would have been ready. He could have lasted for more than a two-minute show.  Am I averse to corporate America? Not really. I say let them run the venues. Let them handle the merchandising and magazines. Let them produce the tv.  But when it comes to picking story lines, picking the talent, that's a job for wrestling people.  Just like i don't think Marge Shotz (owner of the Reds) should be picking the pitchers for her team.

Is there any future for scientific wrestling - a fair fight between two evenly matched men, well paced exchanges, good story lines without soap opera?

I don't think it'll ever go back to the '70s but I think at some point it's got to back a bit.  And add some substance.  Right now it's like cotton candy, a lot of fluff and no substance. I think that today, if you become a professional wrestling fan, it doesn't take a lot to entertain you, because you're not fully aware of what it's about. However if you pursue it and become a student of the game, then you're more suspicious and you become aware that this guy who you thought was great 3 years ago isn't so great today.  So the next time you spend $35 for a PPV, you expect to get more bang for your buck.

That won't happen in the next 12 months. But in a couple of years, when it's not as hot as the business is now, you're gonna see it cool down. There's only so many story lines, there's only so much you can do to make It exciting. Last Monday night the Ultimate Warrior was up in the rafters, with face paint  and a long trench coat.  Where have you seen that before? It's Sting with a different face and hair color.

Back in the '60s and '70s I helped run territories, helped book around the country and now I look at Time-Warner and Titan.  It such a business operation and you think "I could do better than that."  But then you sit back and realize that you're not in the business.

Who are the current men in the ring who most closely conform to your ideas on wrestling?
 
If we're talking about technical quality, Malenko and Benoit are technical quality, but they're also performers. Benoit, Malenko, Candido, Jericho, Austin, Cactus Jack, Bret Hart. A guy like Austin can virtually do everything.  Is he the best at everything? No, but he can interview, rumble, get down on the mats and get up in the air a little bit.  Like it says on the movie marquee, "George Clooney is Batman!"   Well Steve Williams is Steve Austin! He's not playing at being somebody else - he's being himself. And there's Brian Christopher of WWF.  I'm not crazy about the Val Venis gimmick. The guy himself has potential but there's too much emphasis on the oddity. I personally find no value in that.

I consider wrestling entertainment but entertainment as a sport. If you and I stand up in the middle of a restaurant and drop our pants and get some laughs, that doesn't mean we're entertainers, right?  I mean we're just being cute.  If you get a reaction from a crowd,  that doesn't mean you're a performer. It just means you got a reaction, and not necessarily a positive one.

At the moment 3 hours is too much for WCW and WWF, if they have that much talent and still can't put on satisfying matches, and have guys talk for 10 minutes when, in truth, they can't talk 5. I think they're slowly driving the nail in their own coffin. But this business itself is never gonna stop.

What went wrong for the AWA which had been carrying the flag for scientific wrestling into the '80s?

I think I understand my industry, and I'd say it was because Verne (Gagne) was not interested in making the necessary changes that had to be made.  The shows were not good quality, the lighting was poor, the camera shots were bad and the production quality lacked something. WWF and WCW (NWA), even Georgia Championship Wrestling had better production values.  He wasn't willing to change and in the end, it cost him his business.

We understand that Tom Zenk was initially trained by Ed Sharkey and then finished his training  with Verne Gagne and Brad Rheingans. Any comments on Ed Sharkey's contribution to wrestling?

I don't know Ed very well but he was always getting a "local boy makes good" push from the media. But Ed never branched out from where he was, very much.  And he always returned to Minneapolis.
 
Have you ever met Tom Zenk?

I met him briefly in the summer of 1985. I had been at a fan club meeting in Kansas City and flew into Minneapolis to meet with Verne and Greg (Gagne) on a syndication matter for television.  They were taping interviews that day (I don't know if it was for local or national tv) and I saw Tom there with the others. What I remember most was the guys ribbing him, more or less teasing him, in the dressing room area because he was a rookie. For no other reason, than that he was a young, new guy,  But I never got well acquainted with him.

I remember seeing Rick Martel on the same day.  He was arriving at Minneapolis airport when i was leaving.  I  know that he and Tom worked for the same company. They probably had met but I don't know to what degree they knew each other. It's funny, but they were very soon  to become a very popular tag team (Can-Am Connection) in the WWF.
 
Do you have any information on why Zenk split from the Can-Am Connection and why Martel is still so bitter about it?

Again I have no first hand information on this. But I did some tag team wrestling and sometimes you can spend so much time together and still not gel as a team.  And, of course, you can get on each other's nerves. You know the chemistry can be good in the ring, but personalities clash outside it.  Now did I think Rick Martel was good?  I think he was, damn good.  But would I have made him the AWA champion?  Probably not, because I think he didn't have that certain spark! I don't know what that spark is, but he didn't have it.  Now Ric Flair had it when I first saw him, and still does, but i can't define what the spark is. Rick (Martel) had a good physique and was a good babyface.  And even as a heel, as "The Model", it worked well for him.  Some people say that his looks stood in his way of becoming a champ. Today, the lines are blurred about good and bad.  But back then it wasn't the case.  The strongest faces or heels usually started on one side and made a switch.  For instance, Ronnie Garvin.  He started as a crazy guy in the ring, and the audiences loved it.  Then they made him a babyface, and he pulled that off successfully, too.  But in Rick's case, in my opinion, it was that lack of "spark" that kept him where he was.

Terry Garvin......he and Ronnie were billed as a tag team most of his career.  They never got much fame but were a very sound team.  Terry never had a great physique but was a very sound journeyman.  He and Pat Patterson came along at the same time. These two had a great sense of humor.  I couldn't say much negative about him.

I don't know what happened in WWF so I can't speak up for either.  They were never bashful about saying what their persuasion was. Now, I have seen them when we were all kids, and I was a naïve kid from the Midwest. If they knew you were uncomfortable around them .... they would pick at guys they knew were uncomfortable.  That's the kind of atmosphere of the wrestling dressing room anyway.  If they see a guy who's easy to rib...they'll drive you crazy, and not just those two guys, but anybody.  I've seen them pick at guys - not necessarily because they're interested in them sexually - but they come onto them just to make them nervous.  So I can't say, that I know the stories you're talking about.  I've heard them about these guys wanting this guy's body.  Well maybe they did, or maybe the guy misconstrued their ribbing. Even in this day and age there are people who are frightened of homosexuals. I  have some friends who are. It's not my persuasion,  but it can't rub off, it's not contagious like scarlet fever. My private life is my private life as long as I don't bring it into your home.   I know the stories you're talking about but again, not having been there I couldn't .... and I'm not defending these guys ....  but knowing their sense of humor and how they were sometimes, that's all a possibility. But it's never been dealt with in the media at all and maybe they were just fooling around.  I just couldn't tell you.
 
Zenk started out in USA Pro then moved to AWA in mid 1984 after USA Pro folded. He was only there a short time before heading to PNW (late '85 - mid '86) and then IWA Canada (mid '86 - late '86) - WWF (late '86 - mid '87) and Japan after McMahon held him to his WWF contract. Thereafter AWA and Japan until finally settling in NWA/WCW 1989 - 1994. Is this sort of early nomadism common and, if so, why?  (a) Was it the usual experience for wrestlers starting out in the business? (b) Was is because of short term contracts? (c) Was it the way a wrestler builds experience and builds up his contract price? (d) Or was it probably just Tom Zenk's personal preference?

I think (b), (c) and (d) are correct,  but not (a) - not the usual experience.
 
What is you general impression of Zenk's work - and what's the general impression among ring veterans of  his ring performance?

I tended to catch snippets of the tv shows and would watch mainly to see who was getting the push.  I saw Tom in his greener years going through growth.  What I do remember is that he was sound in his psychology in the ring, he knew his stuff.  It's kind of like a shortstop in high school who has a problem going to the left.  By the time he gets to college he's broken of that, due to practice and attitude.
 
Why do you think Zenk was downcarded after such a promising start at WCW?

I'm going on my experience here but sometimes the feds change directions in mid-stream. For Tom, they may have just changed direction.

In general terms, would you agree or disagree with Steve Keirn's assessment that Zenk suffered for trying to maintain his own independence as a worker - and for saying what he thought - or do you have a totally different picture of Tom's stay at WCW?
 
If you're looking for a "Yes man,"  you can get those pretty cheap.  If you're paid big money to be intelligent about what you're being paid to do, then if you say "Yes" but think "No," then you should say "No." But I realize you could finish up right back where you started for doing that.
 
Do you have any information on why the "The Z-Man and Flyin' Brian" broke up/were broken up while they were at the very height of their popularity?

I really don't.  I knew Brian - he was a deep thinker who had some mood swings. He was a craftsman, he was like a Ric Flair or a Terry Funk.  He's the kind of guy who goes out there because he loves what he's doing and is trying to be the best he can.

Why would Tom Zenk have stayed face even when it often seemed to be working against him?  His former partners turned (Rick Martel, Brian Pillman, Marcus Bagwell , even Tom Brandi) - why didn't Tom follow their lead?

Sometimes it's not your choice - it's what the organization think will work.  Sometimes they want to take your character in a different direction, so you need to be able to go there. The kids that I train here, some of them say "I want to be a face" or "I want to be a heel" and I train them to be either. You need to be whatever makes you more valuable to the organization.  In the 19 years I was in the ring, I played face all but one of those years.  I started as a babyface, for no particular reason, and they wanted me to stay a face. I teach guys to be either way.
 
So do you think there's still a place for scientific wrestlers like Tom Zenk in wrestling today?

Sure!  The powers-that-be tell you that a match shouldn't run any longer than the space between commercials but to me that's like saying you shouldn't watch baseball but from one innings to another.  Now those in the driver's seat should think of the fans.  I don't care if it's 1998 or 1968, you still have to educate the fans to enjoy skilled wrestling. I think credibility is part of the problem with commentators today.  If you and I come out and you call me a giant and I'm 5' 4'', you lose credibility.  The commentators have the power to convince you of something -  if they say it over and over again.  But if they start saying, for example, that Steve McMichael [one of the new Four Horsemen] is technically sound, I'm find myself saying "hello...hello?"  If you're a student of the game then at some point you're not gonna buy it any longer. If they wanted to, the organizations could go back [to scientific wrestling].  I mean the light shows, the music are great, but that doesn't mean the guys shouldn't be technically sound? I've no idea how they've got away with it.  Probably because people with more power at the company have said "Hey, these guys are super!"  and other people have believed them!!