Y2K-- Head to the Hills or: Don't worry about it???
From ???@??? Thu Oct 22 10:10:07 1998
from pbcustomer - 208.250.84.28 by email.msn.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Wed, 21 Oct 1998 12:53:24 -0700
Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 14:58:24 -0500
From: "Albert Smith"
Message-ID: <000801bdfd2d$2a766600$1c54fad0@pbcustomer>
Subject: Y2K-- Head to the Hills or Don't worry about it????
To: "positive futures" <positive-futures@igc.org>
Just out of general curiosity---
I would like to hear some opinions on the Y2K problem. Do many people
believe it will be a serious problem or a minor blip??
Thanks,
Tina Barnes Smith
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From ???@??? Thu Oct 22 11:11:24 1998
(from csf@localhost) by moscow.com (8.8.4/8.7.3) id VAA00158; Wed, 21 Oct 1998 21:23:14 GMT
Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 14:23:13 -0700
From: Michael Yount
In-Reply-To: Message from "Albert Smith" of "Wed, 21 Oct 1998 14:58:24 CDT." <000801bdfd2d$2a766600$1c54fad0@pbcustomer>
Message-Id: <199810212123.VAA00158@moscow.com>
Subject: Re: Y2K-- Head to the Hills or Don't worry about it????
To: "positive futures" <positive-futures@igc.org>
Tina,
IMHO it already is a serious problem. A colleague of mine
complained to me that, while her company's sales have increased,
people interested in the year 2000 problem (<pedantic> 2k = 2048
</pedantic>) aren't satisfied to order the product. They
insist on finding out whether she is one of the converted.
This has proven very taxing for her.
There is a "progressive" discussion group for this subject,
y2k@tao.ca. Send a message to majordomo@tao.ca, and in
the body of the message, put "subscribe y2k".
Michael
csf@moscow.com
:}Just out of general curiosity---
:}
:}I would like to hear some opinions on the Y2K problem. Do many people
:}believe it will be a serious problem or a minor blip??
:}Thanks,
:}Tina Barnes Smith
:}
:}
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From ???@??? Thu Oct 22 13:14:01 1998
from Unknown/Local ([?.?.?.?]) by my-dejanews.com; Wed Oct 21 15:46:48 1998
Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 15:46:48 -0700
From: "David Darr" <dsdarr@my-dejanews.com>
Message-ID: <ELBKOOAAIEHDEAAA@my-dejanews.com>
Organization: Deja News Mail (http://www.my-dejanews.com:80)
Subject: Re: Y2K-- Head to the Hills or Don't worry about it????
To: <positive-futures@igc.org>
On Wed, 21 Oct 1998 14:23:13 Michael Yount wrote:
> Tina,
> The year 2000 problem (<pedantic> 2k = 2048
> </pedantic>) aren't satisfied to order the product.
My turn to be pedantic. Although 1kb (1 kilobyte) does
indeed equal 1024 bytes (1024 is 2 to the tenth power)
-- this is itself a peculiar (computer) use of the
prefix kilo. Kilo means 1000 -- as in kilometer = 1000
meters, or kilogram = 1000 grams. Year 2k is perfectly
acceptable -- just as is give prices in kilodollars.
pedantically yours, David
---
David Darr
mailto: dsdarr@my-dejanews.com
Seattle, WA.
-----== Sent via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/ Easy access to 50,000+ discussion forums
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From ???@??? Thu Oct 22 13:14:08 1998
from the-word-garden (pm-4-104.dynam.WaveTech.net [206.146.145.105]) by riptide.wavetech.net (8.9.0/8.9.0) with SMTP id RAA15417 for <positive-futures@igc.org>; Wed, 21 Oct 1998 17:52:25 -0500 (CDT)
Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 17:59:56 -0500
From: Betsy Barnum <bbarnum@wavetech.net>
Message-ID: <362E676C.2525@wavetech.net>
Organization: Great River Earth Institute
Subject: y2k
To: Positive Futures <positive-futures@igc.org>
I have written a longer post in response to Tina's question, and am
having a devil of a time sending it. Must have some hidden code in there
somewhere, it just won't go.
Anyway, here's my short answer:
Yes, I think it's a serious problem, no, I don't think anyone should run
for the hills, and without diminishing the potential for difficult, even
life-threatening situations, I do think it offers an incredible
opportunity to take some giant steps toward the social, economic and
cultural transformation that many of us hope for.
I'll try to send more later--esp. my list of favorite web sites dealing
with the transformational approach to preparing for this disaster.
Betsy
--
Betsy Barnum
bbarnum@wavetech.net
http://www.oocities.org/RainForest/1624
**************************************
Be quiet
and sit down.
You are drunk
and this is the edge of the roof.
-- Rumi
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From ???@??? Thu Oct 22 13:14:55 1998
from casco-pm2-1.itol.com (casco-pm2-1.itol.com [207.250.172.221])
by admin.itol.com (8.9.0/8.8.5) with SMTP id SAA14855
for <positive-futures@igc.org>; Wed, 21 Oct 1998 18:48:40 -0500
Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 18:48:40 -0500
From: Jill Taylor Bussiere
Message-Id: <199810212348.SAA14855@admin.itol.com>
Subject: Re: Head to the...
To: <positive-futures@igc.org>
Michael,
What is the product that your colleague sells - does it have
anything to do with Y2K? Or are people just talking about it all the time.
And if you are converted, does that mean that you are worried about the
millenium?
Jill
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From ???@??? Thu Oct 22 14:53:44 1998
(from csf@localhost) by moscow.com (8.8.4/8.7.3) id AAA00168; Thu, 22 Oct 1998 00:54:30 GMT
Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 17:54:30 -0700
From: Michael Yount
In-Reply-To: Message from "David Darr"
of "Wed, 21 Oct 1998 15:46:48 PDT."
Message-Id: <199810220054.AAA00168@moscow.com>
Subject: Re: Y2K
To: <positive-futures@igc.org>
In _Gravity's Rainbow_, the end of the war causes the
end of a bright romance. The woman's husband returns home,
and she returns to him. Her lover laments her decision,
because the conditions that created the war
persist, and the need to ameliorate them persists.
I've heard several people espouse the view that '99 is
prime time to persuade people that technological dependence
poses dangers. Hopefully they won't be pressured to
explain that nothing's changed once new year's day comes
and goes.
Anyone here know the song "Won't Get Fooled Again?"
Michael
csf@moscow.com
having a stressful centiyear
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From ???@??? Thu Oct 22 14:53:47 1998
(from csf@localhost) by moscow.com (8.8.4/8.7.3) id BAA00193; Thu, 22 Oct 1998 01:01:48 GMT
Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 18:01:48 -0700
From: Michael Yount <csf@moscow.com>
In-Reply-To: Message from Jill Taylor Bussiere
of "Wed, 21 Oct 1998 18:48:40 CDT." <199810212348.SAA14855@admin.itol.com>
Message-Id: <199810220101.BAA00193@moscow.com>
Subject: Re: Head to the...
To: <positive-futures@igc.org>
Jill,
She sells gardening supplies. Her customers are thinking
about their long-term food supply, but some of them know little about
gardening and probably feel pressured to learn quickly.
From what she told me, "converted" means convinced that the
millenium bug will be catastrophic.
Best wishes,
Michael
csf@moscow.com
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From ???@??? Thu Oct 22 16:10:07 1998
from the-word-garden (pm-3-085.dynam.WaveTech.net [206.146.145.86])
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for <positive-futures@igc.org>; Wed, 21 Oct 1998 21:30:37 -0500 (CDT)
Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 21:38:09 -0500
From: Betsy Barnum
Message-ID: <362E9A91.9BE@wavetech.net>
Organization: Great River Earth Institute
References: <199810220054.AAA00168@moscow.com>
Subject: Re: Y2K--Head to the hills, or don't worry about it?
To: <positive-futures@igc.org>
Tina, and others:
The subject line on this thread gives only two options, and I think
neither of them is either good or smart.
I do think Y2K is likely to cause moderate to severe interruptions in
vital services such as electricity (I live in Minnesota, where Jan. 1 is
liable to bring temps of 20 below zero), food distribution, medical
care, transportation and finance. I make no predictions as to *how*
severe, but I think it will be more than minor inconvenience.
To run for the hills and go into "survivalist" mode is irresponsible
and, I believe, futile--because, if there are serious problems, many
people doing this will virtually guarantee the kind of Apocalyptic
lawlessness some people are predicting--fortresses in the country with
armed people defending their stashes of food and water from gangs of
lawless, landless, hungry people.
On the other hand, not worrying about it is an ostrich response, since
even mainstream folks (e.g. politicians) are now saying it's looking
impossible for all the necessary changes to be made in time, even if
organizations such as power utilities were taking it seriously today,
which some are still not.
The third way to respond that I suggest is community organizing,
decreasing dependency on centralized systems as much as possible,
nurturing connections among neighbors and between neighborhoods,
inventorying block by block to locate especially vulnerable people as
well as catalog skills and knowledge that could be needed by others in a
pinch.
Older folks, especially (elders, like North Dakota Arnie!), who may
still remember how to do many things that the more recently born never
learned (e.g. simple carpentry, fixing many things, saving seeds from
the garden, weaving and sewing and making rag rugs, etc.) can be
valuable in the event of any degree of loss of services.
I'd like to say much more, but won't right now. Instead, I'll leave you
with some of my favorite internet sites that address this way of looking
at and preparing for Y2K.
Y2K Breakthrough Homepage
http://www.co-intelligence.org/y2k_breakthrough.html
Has a huge number of great links and info. Tom Atlee, the author, was a
contributor to InContext, the magazine that YES! is successor to.
Year 2000: Chaos, or Transformation?
http://www.angelfire.com/ca/rhomer/social.html
A fairly brief article outlining what Y2K is, what could happen, why the
only rational response is community-building, and what the potential
transformative outcomes are if people do work together.
The Cassandra Project
http://millennia-bcs.com/
This site contains solid information about Y2K, and also maintains a
list of people and groups all over the US that have registered with them
as being contacts for community planning. I found one contact on this
page that has led to connections with many other people and much local
information I would not otherwise have heard about, including my state's
legislative effort to oversee preparedness and a local online forum that
has been incredibly helpful.
And, Rachel's Environment and Health Weekly had a 2-part series,
succinct and well-documented as usual, last June. Rachel's archives are
on the web, if anyone has the url. Otherwise, I can forward these two
columns to whomever would like to read them.
This (Y2K) is a topic everyone needs to be talking about, in my opinion.
I'm glad you brought it up.
Betsy
--
Betsy Barnum
bbarnum@wavetech.net
http://www.oocities.org/RainForest/1624
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From ???@??? Fri Oct 23 08:28:16 1998
from netcom.ca (kin-on1-29.netcom.ca [207.181.96.93])
by tor-smtp1.netcom.ca (8.8.7-s-4/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA06722
for <positive-futures@igc.org>; Thu, 22 Oct 1998 08:29:43 -0400 (EDT)
Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1998 08:39:31 +0000
From: Harry Pasternak <hpsauce@netcom.ca>
Message-ID: <362EEF3E.7B0FD1BB@netcom.ca>
References: <199810220054.AAA00168@moscow.com> <362E9A91.9BE@wavetech.net>
Subject: Re: Y2K--Head to the hills, or don't worry about it?
To: positive-futures@igc.org <positive-futures@igc.org>
Hi All
Anyone here have a citation in a scholarly journal re Y2K --- before we
start to tear up all the pavement in North America.
- Harry
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From ???@??? Fri Oct 23 08:31:40 1998
by lmcf.exempla.org id <41227>; Thu, 22 Oct 1998 10:53:53 -0600
Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1998 10:35:39 -0600
From: Laurie Harvey
Message-Id: <98Oct22.105353mdt.41227@lmcf.exempla.org>
Subject: Re: Y2K-- Head to the Hills or Don't worry about it???? -Reply
To: <positive-futures@igc.org>, dsdarr@my-dejanews.com
Pardon My Ignorance PF Group,
David, this post is so foreign to me. Would you please explain in
layman terms (no citations necessary) what the hell this means? Is
this the y2k recipe?
Duh, in Colorado
>>> "David Darr" 10/21 4:46 pm
>>>
On Wed, 21 Oct 1998 14:23:13 Michael Yount wrote:
> Tina,
> The year 2000 problem (<pedantic> 2k = 2048
> </pedantic>) aren't satisfied to order the product.
>>>
>>> My turn to be pedantic. Although 1kb (1 kilobyte) does
>>> indeed equal 1024 bytes (1024 is 2 to the tenth power)
...
-----== Sent via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/ Easy access to 50,000+ discussion
forums
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From ???@??? Fri Oct 23 08:32:01 1998
from pop.ou.edu (dyn0-85.educ.ou.edu [129.15.102.85])
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for <positive-futures@igc.org>; Thu, 22 Oct 1998 13:06:16 -0500 (CDT)
Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1998 13:08:56 -0500
From: Diane Fitzsimmons
Message-ID: <362F74B8.7573E848@pop.ou.edu>
References: <000801bdfd2d$2a766600$1c54fad0@pbcustomer>
Subject: Re: Y2K-- Head to the Hills or Don't worry about it????
To: <positive-futures@igc.org>
I am pretty complacent about it because it hasn't been that long ago
that we did without computers. Also, the recent airline and Fed Ex
strikes (is that right?) affected me not one whit that I can tell; maybe
I'm stupid or insensitive.
My only concern would be utilities and my investments. I keep detailed
records of my investments, so I figure it would eventually get
straightened out. As for utilities, I figure it would get straightened
out in a couple of days. I live in a suburb in a state with mild
winters. The worst that I can see happen is having to hole up in my
house a couple of days.
OK, you can call me stupid now.
JMO, Diane
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From ???@??? Fri Oct 23 08:32:03 1998
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Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1998 11:05:13 -0700
From: smasse@advcorp.com
Message-ID: <60A7BC70FC62D211AA0B00A0C995083D4A7B@NTSERV1>
Subject: Y2K
To:
I work for a computer consulting firm, and one of the services we
offer is Y2K compliance audits. For the mainly small to medium
size businesses we work with, compliance either isn't an issue
(no critical applications) or is easily and cheaply corrected. You
can download your CPU's BIOS upgrade directly from the web
for free, in most cases. You can check out your software on
the manufacturer's website and determine comliance; often you
can download patches or fixes for free.
Since my phone company is a co-op (and one of the better ones),
I am not worried about local phone service. I am taking what I consider
prudent precautions in other areas: staple food stuffs (2 mos supply
for 8 people, even tho only 2 live in the house), fuel for the Coleman
stove/barbeque, plenty of wood for the fireplace, enough cash money
for 2 months regular living (more if we damp down everything strictly
non-essential).
In addition, we have surveyed the neighborhood and our church group and
located vulnerable families and individuals. Within the church group, these
folks will be checked on daily -- within the neighborhood we have devised
a sign for the window to let us know what is happening.
Although I won't be in airplane in January, 2000, I really do believe that
most of the effects will either be minimal or of short duration as far as
essential services go. I doubt that the government will ever get it
straight.
Wall Street will fix any flaws -- after all, money is their life's blood.
I keep a journal, but I started a special Year 2000 journal this January.
I keep copies of articles and my comments on them, and my observations
about the world. I don't know who will read mine, as I am virtually without
relatives. But you who have children and gradchildren could address your
thoughts directly to them.
In Peace,
Sue
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From ???@??? Fri Oct 23 11:30:15 1998
from the-word-garden (pm-4-112.dynam.WaveTech.net [206.146.145.113])
by riptide.wavetech.net (8.9.0/8.9.0) with SMTP id QAA23504
for <positive-futures@igc.org>; Thu, 22 Oct 1998 16:48:43 -0500 (CDT)
Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1998 16:56:14 -0500
From: Betsy Barnum
Message-ID: <362FA9FE.4E90@wavetech.net>
Organization: Great River Earth Institute
References: <000801bdfd2d$2a766600$1c54fad0@pbcustomer> <362F74B8.7573E848@pop.ou.edu>
Subject: Re: Y2K-- Head to the Hills or Don't worry about it????
To: <positive-futures@igc.org>
Diane Fitzsimmons wrote:
> I am pretty complacent about it because it hasn't been that long ago
> that we did without computers. Also, the recent airline and Fed Ex
> strikes (is that right?) affected me not one whit that I can tell; maybe
> I'm stupid or insensitive.
The difference from the un-computerized days is that now, nearly every
system on which people depend for daily necessities is run by computers
and embedded chips. Examples: filters and pumping systems for municipal
warer supplies; train track switching; air traffic control; power
plants. Transportation interruptions could affect local supplies of
food, fuel for both vehicles and power plants, and medicines; energy
interruptions could also be far-reaching.
One of the reasons a y2k disaster would likely be different from a flood
or storm disaster, for which nearly every area is already prepared, is
that it is likely to be widespread, not localized. A nursing home, for
example, will not be able to transport residents from a cold building
which has lost its electricity, to warmth and safety in a nearby town.
There won't be heat there, either. There might not be fuel for the vans.
The vans might not even start, because of their 20 to 50 embedded chips.
Another possible problem that is, in my opinion, fairly likely to occur
no matter how severe or mild the actual effects are, is panic as the day
approaches and people suddenly begin to pay attention and become afraid,
or are affected by media frenzy. This reaction alone, regardless of what
actually happens, could result in everything from runs on food and
toilet paper to runs on banks, even violence and lawlessness, such as
looting and robbery. If there are power outages, people may decide to
drive to friends or relatives who also probably don't have power, and
traffic jams could be severe.
A neighborhood organizing approach is the best way I can think of to
lessen the possible impacts of both service interruptions and public
panic. I think this crisis, whatever it winds up being, will shift us
all from dependence on global systems to dependence on each other in our
neighborhoods, communities and regions--in other words, to move us in
the same direction that voluntary simplicity moves us, toward a positive
future based on community and relationships rather than on technology
and a global economy.
> My only concern would be utilities and my investments. I keep detailed
> records of my investments, so I figure it would eventually get
> straightened out. As for utilities, I figure it would get straightened
> out in a couple of days. I live in a suburb in a state with mild
> winters. The worst that I can see happen is having to hole up in my
> house a couple of days.
I hope that is the worst that happens, but I'd like to urge everyone on
this list to put aside your doubt and find out more about what kind of
crisis Y2K might bring. There's lots of information available on the
Internet that is neither alarmist nor based on hidden agendas. I will
again recommend the Cassandra Project, http://millennia-bcs.com/ and the
article on transformation by John L. Petersen, Margaret Wheatley and
Myron Kellner-Rogers, http://www.angelfire.com/ca/rhomer/social.html
(this page has some cool digital music, too!)
Betsy
--
Betsy Barnum
bbarnum@wavetech.net
http://www.oocities.org/RainForest/1624
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From ???@??? Sat Oct 24 05:49:03 1998
from default(cust27.max1.firstdial.com[206.253.205.27]) (1116 bytes) by smtp.firstdial.com via sendmail with P:esmtp/R:inet_hosts/T:smtp
(sender: ) id for <positive-futures@igc.org>; Thu, 22 Oct 1998 23:03:32 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2.0.101 1997-Dec-17 #11 built 1998-Jun-28)
Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1998 23:15:13 -0700
From: "Joshua Heath B. Heath"
Message-Id:
Subject: Re: Y2K--Head to the hills, or don't worry about it?
To: <positive-futures@igc.org>
Really, all this is amusing to me. It would be the ultimate irony if
things really did turn out to be a big mess. But, at the same time, I
really think that it probably is not such a big deal..... who knows though.
But in any case, I am mentally prepared for the worst at all times
anyways..... I seriously think that our entire economic and political
systems will go through MAJOR upheavals sometime duriing our lives... so if
anything this could be a little taste of what things would be like in the
case of a REAL collapse.
just my thoughts...
Joshua
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From ???@??? Sat Oct 24 05:49:39 1998
from pop.ou.edu (dyn0-85.educ.ou.edu [129.15.102.85]) by styx.services.ou.edu (8.8.7/8.8.6) with ESMTP id IAA27996 for <positive-futures@igc.org>; Fri, 23 Oct 1998 08:53:33 -0500 (CDT)
Date: Fri, 23 Oct 1998 08:56:15 -0500
From: Diane Fitzsimmons
Message-ID: <36308AFF.44918D39@pop.ou.edu>
References: <000801bdfd2d$2a766600$1c54fad0@pbcustomer> <362F74B8.7573E848@pop.ou.edu> <362FA9FE.4E90@wavetech.net>
Subject: Re: Y2K-- Head to the Hills or Don't worry about it????
To: "<positive-futures@igc.org>" <positive-futures@igc.org>
> The difference from the un-computerized days is that now, nearly every
> system on which people depend for daily necessities is run by computers
> and embedded chips. Examples: filters and pumping systems for municipal
> warer supplies; train track switching; air traffic control; power
> plants. Transportation interruptions could affect local supplies of
> food, fuel for both vehicles and power plants, and medicines; energy
> interruptions could also be far-reaching.
>
>
Betsy and others:
I am not trying to be contradictory or argumentative; and once again
maybe I'm being naive or have seen too many Star Treks ("Scotty, I've
got to have those warp engines back on now!).
But in my neck of the woods, I've send massive breakdowns of computers,
power, etc., many a time, and those blue-collar guys (you know, the ones
who have occupations that no one wants their kids to do but we all need
done) who work for the city, gas company, electric company, etc., head
out in the worst conditions and jerry-rig something to get things going
again.
I grant you things would be worse in a big city. I grant you that
widespread problems could make things worse.
But I bet the average kitchen in America has enough food in the back of
the cabinet to keep the occupant(s) alive for a couple of weeks. It may
be living on canned tomatoes .. but no starvation.
My biggest concern would be for computers in hospitals and other places
with direct life support systems where the downtime could mean life or
death.
The other reason I'm skeptical is that I am a former newspaper editor.
I have known many members of the media who like to be the first to say,
"I told you so." There's something about this "crisis" that gives me a
gut reaction that this is largely what this is about.
Of course, after 1-1-2000 there'll be a spate of stories about how
either the world was thrown into a crisis because of Y2K or how it was a
case of Chicken Little.
In either case, I bet Americans, for the most part, will be sitting pretty.
For me, I'll worry about things I believe are real and now, global
warming, breast cancer, AIDS, poor water quality, Third World food
supply problems, etc.
And if I'm wrong, I'll be the first to admit it -- won't be the first time!
FWIW, Diane
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From ???@??? Sat Oct 24 15:13:35 1998
from vrc (p13.tc3.bedfo.MA.tiac.com [209.61.104.142]) by mail-out-4.tiac.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA11792 for <positive-futures@igc.org>; Fri, 23 Oct 1998 19:53:42 GMT (envelope-from vrc@tiac.net)
Date: Fri, 23 Oct 1998 15:42:09 -0400
From: Vegetarian Resource Center
In-Reply-To: <36308AFF.44918D39@pop.ou.edu>
Message-Id: <4.1.0.67.19981023154135.00c4e760@pop.tiac.net>
References: <000801bdfd2d$2a766600$1c54fad0@pbcustomer>
<362F74B8.7573E848@pop.ou.edu>
<362FA9FE.4E90@wavetech.net>
Subject: Re: Y2K-- Head to the Hills or Don't worry about it????
To: <positive-futures@igc.org>
At 08:56 AM 10/23/98 -0500, Diane Fitzsimmons wrote:
>For me, I'll worry about things I believe are real and now, global
>warming, breast cancer, AIDS, poor water quality, Third World food
>supply problems, etc.
How about heart disease and cancer of ALL types -
the two major killers of Americans?
This is: http://www.oocities.org/RainForest/6783/PosFutY2K.html#top
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