Larry King Live

The Trials and Tribulations of The Dalai Lama

Aired April 22, 1997 - 9:00 p.m. ET

LARRY KING, CNN HOST: Good evening, and welcome to this special edition of LARRY KING LIVE. Special because our honored guest tonight is His Holiness, the Dalai Lama, the exiled leader of Tibet. Later in the program, Richard Gere, the actor and Buddhist; and Congressman Tom Lantos of California will join us to discuss the trials and tribulations of the Dalai Lama, as he fights for himself and his people.

Have you arranged for a meeting with the president?

THE DALAI LAMA: Yes.

KING: Where will it take place?

DALAI LAMA: Oh, that, I don't know. Whether they finalized or not, I don't know.

KING: Is it for -- you have met with him before?

DALAI LAMA: Yes, twice.

KING: Are you encouraged that he will be ready to do things for the people of Tibet?

DALAI LAMA: Of course, it's a Tibet issue, very complex, very complicated. At the same time Tibet is also, I believe, moral issue. So of course, people of this country and president of this country -- of course there is indication that he does want to help.

KING: His problem is he doesn't want to hurt China, right?

DALAI LAMA: Oh, yes.

KING: So what should he do?

DALAI LAMA: See, my -- basic, probably -- of course, the Tibetan issue also I think was an issue, I feel. So the best way to solve any human issue is not to confrontation, but rather is dialogue, talk, to friendly atmosphere. So, now in our case also I think, it is best effective help will be of help.

KING: Helping you?

DALAI LAMA: Yes, yes, is a true also the friendly manner, friendly with Chinese. And then through that way in sudden principal matter, which has been found and that is the proper way.

KING: Your Holiness, they are watching right now in Beijing. Would you would like to sit down with them?

DALAI LAMA: Of course.

KING: Can that be possible?

DALAI LAMA: Not just now, not now. But the long run, I feel, I have full confidence. I think it is a there will be one day we sit together and try how to solve. You see my basic approach is, not complete separation, not complete independence. Of course historically we are independent nation...

KING: But you don't want independence?

DALAI LAMA: And many Tibetans also, you see, want -- however, my basic belief is that things are much changed and also changing, so the world heavily independent, so therefore even our own interests in many economy field, if you join with another big nation, that might be the good benefit for us. So therefore, is I'm seeking genuine self rule, so that I feel we should agree upon.

KING: We have lots to talk about, let's find out a little more about you. Are you both the spiritual and political leader of your people?

DALAI LAMA: Yes, I think so. Since the Dalai Lama...

KING: All The Dalai Lama?

DALAI LAMA: Yes, since the Dalai Lama become as the head of the board.

KING: Who is the next Dalai Lama?

DALAI LAMA: Who knows?

KING: How is that chosen? Is there is a successor? How does it work?

DALAI LAMA: Now, you see, that question is I made very clear. The very institute of Dalai Lama should continue not of the Tibetan people, so that as early as '69 is I made very clear.

KING: It is up to them?

DALAI LAMA: Yes, up to them. So in case the Tibetan people want to keep this institution, then the next question is how to -- how to proceed the succession. So, if the people at that time, is want to carry the sort of traditional way, then you seek to search new reincarnation.

KING: And how would you advise them if they asked you?

DALAI LAMA: [laughter]

KING: I know, it is a good question. What would you say if they said, "What do you think your Holiness? Should we have another..." DALAI LAMA: I personally, you see, have a few options, I have a few possibilities. One, like the pope's, you see, the way of possibly -- election. Then, also in the Tibetan tradition, some of head of the religious sect or religious leader on the basis of seniority, that also possible. Then third, our traditional way is to search the nation.

KING: And anyone would make you happy, any choice they made?

DALAI LAMA: Yes, since whether the institution should continue or not, is up to them. So the way of their choose also is up to them.

KING: Is it a burden, your role?

DALAI LAMA: No, you know it is in my rule in the Tibetan freedom circle, I believe -- this is not just a political sort of issue. I believe, firstly, this is national issue of Tibetan nation's survival, for survival. And that is very much connected with good culture and good spirituality. So therefore, you see my participate in this struggle, I consider part of my spiritual practice.

KING: But you have paid a price in this struggle. You personally have paid a heavy price but you don't consider it a burden?

DALAI LAMA: Of course, after all, life is not that much is easy all the time. So the purpose of life is something useful, something benefit for other. That is the important thing.

KING: I will ask about that in a moment. We will be back with His Holiness, The Dalai Lama, on this edition of LARRY KING LIVE, don't go away.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KING: We are back with Dalai Lama.

Help us a little, before we talk about China and the conflict, with Buddhism. Is it in conflict with Christianity? Judaism? Mohammedism? Other -ism's?

DALAI LAMA: What do you mean?

KING: Is it a continuation of these faiths? What is the difference -- essential difference?

DALAI LAMA: Oh, essential differences. Usually, I describe like this. The Christianity, Judaism, and Muslims, and so on -- these religions, they are fundamental, that faith is creator.

KING: It was a creator?

DALAI LAMA: Yes, there is creator. Then there is Buddhism, Zionism, and also some ancient religion, that do not exit the concept of creator.

KING: What do you accept? DALAI LAMA: So, self creation, something like self creation, so it is usually I describe, godly religion and godless religion. So, this is a fundamental differences. However, the -- I always see -- look at the purpose of this different religious traditions. I feel it is the same. All you see aiming betterment of human being, try to make it warm-hearted person, a sensible person, sensible humanity.

So, that is right. All these major religions is talking about importance of love, compassion, and sense of forgiveness.

KING: Who, then -- do you pray? And, if you pray, who do you pray to?

DALAI LAMA: Yes, we Buddhists pray, pray to Buddha, that means -- higher being.

KING: Is Buddha god?

DALAI LAMA: The Buddha, the origin of Buddha, is just ourselves, just like ourselves.

KING: He was a man.

DALAI LAMA: Yes, ordinary, a man or sentient being, which is ordinary. Then through his or her own practice, that eventually enlightened -- that we call Buddha. So, we can consider them as higher being, so they have extra, sort of energy and we can appeal to them in a form of prayer.

KING: But your basic concept is belief in self?

DALAI LAMA: That's right.

KING: And, love for others?

DALAI LAMA: That's right.

KING: This concept, though, has gotten you problems over the years. For example, in the area, it appears you're a pacifist and other countries, as China did in 1950, take you over. True?

DALAI LAMA: I don't think...

KING: You don't take arms?

DALAI LAMA: I think unfortunate event, become impossible because of many, many, you see, factors. Perhaps one, maybe is some incarnation as you mentioned. This is before Buddhism came to Tibet. Then, according to some historian, they believe Tibet -- then the Tibetans were much more -- warrior...

KING: Hostile?

DALAI LAMA: Yes, that kind of thing. Then, since the Buddhism came to Tibet, Tibetan community or the society become much more, how can I say, compassionate or peaceful. But, I think, I can the main -- we can't blame, actually, all these negative things happen because of the Buddhist approach, I don't think.

KING: Of course, great men of peace, Martin Luther King, Gandhi have often faced the burdens of their political non-activism in taking to arms, as you do as well, right? You would not fight someone else?

DALAI LAMA: No, but again, you see here, we have to think very carefully, the conflict of disagreement between individual, as community or nation. The -- such a thing conflict or contradiction always they happen, bound to happen. Then the best way to solve that, is dialogue.

KING: What do...

DALAI LAMA: Violence, counter violence...

KING: ...doesn't solve anything.

DALAI LAMA: Yes, although you see you may solve one problem. You may get some satisfaction. But, it creates another longer, bigger problems.

KING: What does the Buddhist believe happens at death?

DALAI LAMA: Buddhists, like any other -- any like some other religions, believe continuation of birth -- continuation of life.

KING: Reborn again?

DALAI LAMA: Yes.

KING: In another soul, another body?

DALAI LAMA: They word "soul"...

KING: Help me, Your Highness.

DALAI LAMA: Soul -- you see, Buddhists do not exit soul. "Soul" means something solid, something, how do you say, permanence, something separable, something, I think, separate identity from this body. That soul we do not accept. Buddhists do not accept, do not accept that.

KING: It is all one?

DALAI LAMA: But then, you see, Buddhists believe the being -- the being or self, which essentially just the mere designated one, but its continuation always there, no beginning, no end.

KING: We will be back with His Holiness, the Dalai Lama. I said "His Highness." I'm a king, we do these things. We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KING: We are back with His Holiness, the Dalai Lama. He is the exile leader of Tibet. Some more questions on Buddhism and then some politics, and then we will meet Richard Gere and Congressman Tom Lantos, who will join us from California, after His Holiness leaves us.

You recently, I think you recently said, that we spend a lot of money on outer space and nothing on inner space. What do you mean?

DALAI LAMA: We spend all the money in order to explore external space, but internal space here -- I think modern science, it will bring a new system about human psychology, seems now just as starting, a beginning. So I think a lot of things is -- explore we have to explore.

KING: And we should be exploring?

DALAI LAMA: Yes.

KING: Has Buddhism always been interested in psychology?

DALAI LAMA: Yes.

KING: And the brain?

DALAI LAMA: Yes.

KING: Why humans do what they do?

DALAI LAMA: That is right. In order to take positive transformation of mental attitude or mental peace, all the effort must come through as mind itself.

KING: Why do you think you attract so many Americans to Buddhism, especially those in the creative arts?

DALAI LAMA: I don't know. I think you ask them directly, then you know.

KING: I will ask Mr. Gere in a couple minutes. You don't know why?

DALAI LAMA: I think that is there -- I think, different levels or different reasons. Usually, sometimes, I do feel the rest of the world, of course traditionally Christian countries, so, therefore, we see Christianity to them is something I say, something usual.

So life, you see, always is try -- want to change, you see including, let's say, a style, fashion, what call, dress or hair- styles.

KING: convention?

DALAI LAMA: Yes.

So I think that also what I think possible, let's see one -- some people see one, two, no, something new about ancient art. And Buddhism, Tibetan Buddhism, there is something very, very new in the past. Then, another factor, I think some for serious student or some serious people, they -- Tibetan Buddhism, or Buddhism general, very much you see, how should I -- very much, I think, I mean very, very much in you don't you see about the ways that methods or technique, you see, to improve inner strength.

KING: We are attracted to this.

DALAI LAMA: Yes.

KING: And love is a big power to you; right?

DALAI LAMA: Oh, yes, of course. Compassion these are the -- all major religion carry this message, but Buddhism I think more emphasis.

KING: How many people live in Tibet now?

DALAI LAMA: Exact number: difficult to say, but, generally, we believe around six million.

KING: How many have left?

DALAI LAMA: About 100, now I think about 140,000.

KING: Where do you live?

DALAI LAMA: In India, in northern India.

KING: And are treated well?

DALAI LAMA: Oh, very good.

KING: India is a haven.

DALAI LAMA: Yes, very good. They are, of course, it is -- usually I just have our relation Tibetan and Indian, our relation is something like, relation between teacher and student. India, we consider as a teacher.

KING: Your teacher.

DALAI LAMA: India, yes, our teacher we are disciple of India. Because Buddhism come from India.

KING: Do you praise Gandhi? Is Gandhi one of your heroes?

DALAI LAMA: Oh yes, of course.

KING: Why did the Chinese take you over? What does China have against Tibet?

DALAI LAMA: I think there are different reasons at different time. At the beginning, there was a late '40s and beginning of '50s, then in the minds of Chinese Communists, as like many other Communist countries do, the idea or enthusiasm of worldwide evolution.

KING: Mao.

DALAI LAMA: Yes, that I think the main reason. Although, I think, before China's communist, you see, got power, the China Communist also recognize Tibet as a separate nation. KING: He did?

DALAI LAMA: Yes, some indication there.

KING: Did Chiang Kai Shek recognize?

DALAI LAMA: No, Chiang Kai Shek considered Tibet as a part of China.

KING: Let me get a break. We will come right back with the Dalai Lama. We'll spend some more moments with him, and then we will meet our friends in California. This is LARRY KING LIVE, don't go away.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KING: Our guest is His Holiness, the Dalai Lama.

You went to Taiwan?

DALAI LAMA: Yes.

KING: What did you find there? What were the feelings?

DALAI LAMA: Very interesting. The very good education. And then, economy prosperity, and on top of that, seems great enthusiasm, spirituality.

KING: Really?

DALAI LAMA: There is I think, seems wonderful.

KING: What about interest in Tibet?

DALAI LAMA: Oh, yes, they show, great sympathy about Tibet.

KING: Can you tell us what conditions are like in Tibet, now?

DALAI LAMA: In the economy field, in some area, some improvement, some individual Tibetan now can become rich. I don't know any millionaire, not yet , but some Tibetan individuals can get more richer. At the same time, the farmers, and area, I think new taxation -- taxes -- makes it more difficult, and then I think the good town, like Hasa, even manual laborers, the local people find it difficult to get, because the more and more Chinese, as they came.

So and then the worst thing is in education field. Now, study Tibetan, now becoming less and less. And more emphasis on learning Chinese. And then a lot of restrictions on study of Buddhism. And then environment issue also, very serious.

KING: What do the Chinese fear in people being taught Buddhism? Do you think?

DALAI LAMA: Although, the Communism usually they consider their radical -- so they all other religions, all other idols are something rotten, or something bad they have to abandon. Now, Tibetan case, you see Tibetan Buddhism, now recently, is some local Chinese authority is openly stated Tibetan, so long Tibetan Buddhism remain there, Tibetan Buddhist culture remain there they see clearly the separation. Because this is true.

Is it Tibetan, our own civilization, our own Buddhist culture, our own majority or racially, linguisticly, culturally separate nation. So long is it that identities remain there, basically. Therefore it is deliberate, you see, trying to remove that.

KING: But the Chinese are also looking to the West, they are looking to modernize. They are going to take Hong Kong over. One would think that they may have a broader approach, as we approach the year 2000. Are you optimistic?

DALAI LAMA: Yes, basically, I'm optimistic. Now, China, the Peoples Republic of China, today's China compare to 20 years ago, much already changed.

KING: Much.

DALAI LAMA: Yes. So all the same constitutions, same one party system, but in reality, in the process of change.

KING: Some more moments with Dalai Lama. We will go all over the board in those moments, and then we will meet Congressman Tom Lantos and Richard Gere. This LARRY KING LIVE.

Tomorrow night: Dr. Jeffrey McDonald will be with us from prison. Some new information has broken that may say he's innocent. That's all tomorrow night, back with the Dalai Lama after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KING: We're back with His Holiness, the Dalai Lama. What is it like to be in exile, to not be with your people?

DALAI LAMA: Not a challenge. And, one way, I think there is challenge. There also give us opportunity, you see, to prove one's self, something useful.

KING: Do you miss yours home?

DALAI LAMA: Sometimes.

KING: Just sometimes?

DALAI LAMA: Yes.

KING: Not all time?

DALAI LAMA: Because I think as a Buddhist monk, spiritually speaking, when you become monk, you see, you are, how do you say, mentally isolated from the family.

KING: So, it doesn't matter where you live? DALAI LAMA: Not very particularly. See India is very close in our mind traditionally, traditionally. So, therefore, you see -- and secondly, you see the India -- the government of India helps and also the public, sort of sympathy and concern, mends -- very good.

KING: What attracts some one to be a monk?

DALAI LAMA: What attraction?

KING: Yeah, why would...

DALAI LAMA: Monk, of course, firstly, whether you become a believer or nonbeliever, is an individual right. In case, you see, a believer, then according to Buddhism and also some of the other religions, you see, the life as -- what do you say, how do you say, syllabus?

KING: Yes.

DALAI LAMA: ...without family. See, that's very, very good for practice of religion or...

KING: Like the priest?

DALAI LAMA: Oh, yes.

KING: So, the monk leads a celibate life?

DALAI LAMA: That's right, monks are nuns.

KING: Has this been hard for you?

DALAI LAMA: That depends on one's only -- the training of your mind. Through training, you see, one of the basic aim of Buddhist teaching is try to reduce the nerve emotions, such as attachment, and anger, hatred.

KING: Jealousy?

DALAI LAMA: Jealousy.

KING: Envy?

DALAI LAMA: That's right.

KING: You don't have that?

DALAI LAMA: I think as a result of practice, although, these sometimes come. But, like I say, an ocean, the wave come and go, but underneath ocean always remain calm. So that's the kind of feeling. I do.

KING: Are you in good health?

DALAI LAMA: Yes. KING: How old are you now?

DALAI LAMA: Now, 60, 61.

KING: Many years left?

DALAI LAMA: I hope so.

KING: What are you going to ask of the president?

DALAI LAMA: President, as the leader of the great nation, traditionally, I think very much as a cherished democracy, freedom, liberty. I think this is -- when we were in Tibet, when I was young, I was small, even then, you see, we consider America as a champion of liberty, of freedom, democracy. So, I think, it carries these traditional values. That's very important.

KING: So, you will ask him to do what? Talk to the Chinese? Try to arrange...

DALAI LAMA: According to that principle, then the American foreign policy, then sure I can go according to these things. That's how I believe. The smaller nations, sometimes even the one to do, is difficult. So, my decision to visit Taiwan, was one of my attrition, you see, they -- I think they -- because of the freedom, and also it is really a democratic society, I really admire the president, you see, the president of Taiwan.

KING: You do?

DALAI LAMA: According to some historian -- Chinese historian, they say after five -- in 5,000 years, he is the first leader who come to power through election, democratic election.

KING: They say the president will not meet you in the Oval Office because of the Chinese question. He can't give you the head of state greeting that you should have. Does that bother you?

DALAI LAMA: No. I do not want to create embarrassment to anybody. I do not want. I want to avoid create embarrassment.

KING: Since...

DALAI LAMA: One thing is to meet person to person -- talk. That is...

KING: Doesn't matter where?

DALAI LAMA: That's important.

KING: In Buddhism, as you said earlier, you were evolved?

DALAI LAMA: Yes.

KING: You've come back, right?

DALAI LAMA: Right.

KING: What or whom will you come back as?

DALAI LAMA: I think at the moment, a little bit too early to say, I think, to think about these things.

KING: Maybe a rabbi?

DALAI LAMA: But you see, one part of my, how do you say, daily prayer, is one verses, that as long as space remain, as long as sentient being suffering remains, I will remain in order to serve. Now, this prayer -- this sentence always bring me inner strength.

KING: An honor meeting you.

DALAI LAMA: Thank you.

KING: Thank you, The Dalai Lama. Richard Gere and Congressman Tom Lantos next. Don't go away.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KING: We're back on LARRY KING LIVE, and joining us now from Los Angeles is Richard Gere, the noted actor and of course Buddhist; and in San Francisco, Congressman Tom Lantos, Democrat, of California.

Richard, first your thoughts on the appearance tonight of the Dalai Lama and what he had to say.

RICHARD GERE, ACTOR: Well, you know it's always a pleasure to see and hear His Holiness. I'm always moved by the fact that this man has been on the world stage since about 1950 and the wisdom that he's gained in the world, let's say, because of the situation -- a horrendous situation that's happened in Tibet -- along with his own spiritual progress is a totally unique creature.

KING: Yes, he was a child right?

GERE: He was like sixteen when the invasion happened and was thrown into the middle of this craziness with Mao and very serious and ugly negotiations with the Chinese, and was out of his depth in the political realm...

KING: Yes.

GERE: ...which he'll readily admit but has obviously learned a lot.

KING: Come a long way. Congressman Lantos, your thoughts on the Dalai Lama?

REPRESENTATIVE TOM LANTOS (D), CALIFORNIA: Well, the Dalai Lama speaks for himself. You saw a wise, warm, whimsical, compassionate, wonderful human being. And it boggles the mind that the Chinese Communist regime controlling 1.2 billion people, huge military forces, a growing economy, is unprepared to sit down with this peace-loving, gentle Buddhist monk and allow him to explain to them why he would like some degree of cultural and religious autonomy.

KING: Why don't they?

LANTOS: Well, because these systems, Larry, are not rational systems. When the president of Taiwan was invited to address his alma mater, Cornell University, a year and a half ago, the Chinese communists went ballistic when I introduced the resolution calling on the State Department to let him come. And finally, the Congress unanimously approved that resolution, the president of Taiwan came and nothing happened but the Chinese were climbing the walls.

This man could be a tremendous asset in the transformation of China in becoming a more compassionate, open, and democratic society. And instead they are treating him in the most brutal fashion with Stalinist rhetoric and consider him a fundamental threat to their very existence.

KING: Should President Clinton be more openly supportive of him, considering Clinton's dealings with the Chinese?

LANTOS: Well, let me sort of give it some historical perspective. Our administrations have never been in the forefront of dealing with His Holiness, the Dalai Lama. When I invited him to meet with the Congressional Human Rights Caucus ten years ago, they wouldn't touch him with a 10-foot pole.

I give credit to President Clinton that he will see him. I see no reason why he should not be seen in the Oval Office, and I certainly hope that Speaker Gingrich will still respond to my request to have a joint session for the Dalai Lama.

KING: Richard, what attracted you to Buddhism?

GERE: I think most of the major changes in anyone's life come out of some kind of suffering, and I was in my early 20s and life wasn't making a lot of sense. And I had experimented with a lot of philosophical systems and spiritual systems and I felt a great affinity for the Buddhist approach.

I think mainly because it left responsibility totally on me for the state of my mind, and the state of my experience of myself and the world, and a very systematic approach to changing all of that. Changing my mind, changing my heart, changing therefore, the outside world as well.

KING: And did it do that for you?

GERE: It's gone a long way towards that, yes for sure. The more you put into it the more practice, the more energy you give it, the more courage you have in looking at yourself, in your own mind and in your own heart. Of course, it gets deeper and more effective all the time.

KING: We'll be right back with Richard Gere and Congressman Tom Lantos on this evening with the Dalai Lama. This is LARRY KING LIVE, don't go away. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KING: Congressman Lantos, why does China -- big, powerful China -- care about running Tibet?

LANTOS: Well, China, historically, has considered Tibet part of China, and with a moderate and reasonable leader, both spiritual and political, such as the Dalai Lama, China would now have an opportunity of practicing in Tibet the one country, two-systems approach, which presumably they'll start practicing beginning July 1 with respect to Hong Kong.

The Dalai Lama doesn't want his own military. He does not want a separate governmental structure. He's just pleading for cultural and religious autonomy for his people. It is incomprehensible, if you analyze it with a rational mind, why the Chinese are so desperately afraid of him, and why they are incurring the criticism of the entire civilized world by their treatment of the Dalai Lama, of Buddhists in Tibet, and of Christians in China.

I mean, China is so desperately opposed to any form of religion that it reminds me of the worst periods of Stalinism, when in Moscow there was a museum showing why all religions are evil.

KING: Richard Gere, what do you make of it? Why china is so -- I know you have studied this. You go to the Far East a lot, why?

GERE: Why are they so difficult on the issue of Tibet?

KING: Yeah.

GERE: It started off as a land grab, frankly.

KING: We have had land grabs we have given back.

GERE: We don't give it back. The U.S. doesn't give it back.

KING: Panama Canal we have given back.

GERE: We still control it. We still have our military there. It's a very interesting place. Tibet is the high plateau of Asia. It has traditionally been a buffer zone for the major empires of that area, whatever incarnation they happen to be at any moment. From the Russian empire, whether the czarist empire or the Soviet Union in the north, the Chinese empire, whatever incarnation that is to the east, the Indian sub-continents and the Arab countries to the west -- Afghanistan, Turkey, etcetera -- and having a vital Tibet actually kept these very diametrically's opposed systems away from each other, and in fact was a peace buffer in many ways.

Since that's been taken over by China, India is very fearful of what's going to happen to them. The Soviet Union is not happy about the situation, you know, in their incarnations now and before. And the Arab countries, as well. The Arabs in the far west of what is now China are uprising. And there is a lot of violence along those borders. I think the loss of Tibet, as a buffer zone, has caused enormous problems in Asia.

If you want to continue, what are they doing there?

First of all, they came in and took away all of the lumber. They cut down all the trees -- they clear cut all the trees. Then they killed all the wild animals. Then they started taking all the minerals that were easy to get away. Then they started strip mining. And then they started dumping nuclear waste there, and in fact trying to contract western countries, dumping their waste in Tibet. And then they started bringing in settlers. There are now approximately 7 1/2 million Chinese subsidized settlers, who have been brought into Tibet, a huge population transfer which is considered genocide, in terms of the Geneva convention.

KING: You go every year to India, right, for the teachings?

GERE: I go there at least once a year, sometimes three times a year.

KING: Buddhism is what to you? Is it a religion? Is it a philosophy, what?

GERE: It's all of that. It's a psychology, it's a philosophical system. Sometimes His Holiness doesn't even call it a religion because, as he was saying before, there is not a belief in a creator god. If that's part of what a religion is then you can't even call it a religion.

I think what's so interesting about it and so useful to us in the present -- it's about science, science of mind, but also science of heart, expanding one's heart to encompass all creatures, all things and all universes; and at the same time, expanding and exploring the mind so that we understand how the universe functions, that we are not separate, we are interdependent. And as we believe that and embrace that idea, obviously conflicts are going to fall away as well, whether they're interpersonal or they're internal.

KING: We'll get a break, and we come back some fine thoughts on His Holiness from Congressman Lantos and Richard Gere. Don Imus will be with us from New York Thursday night. Don't go away.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KING: Congressman Lantos, what is the Dalai Lama's greatness?

LANTOS: Well, he's one of the few remaining moral authorities on this planet. As you look around the globe, it's very difficult to find either in political leaders or in many other spheres of life great moral authority. The Dalai Lama has it.

That is why when he comes to Washington, members of Congress are honored to meet with him. We don't expect any trade treaties from him. We don't expect any benefits from him. We are impressed by the presence of a great moral authority. When he goes to the European parliament in Straussberg, all of the political leaders of Europe respect him and honor him as one of the great moral authorities of our age. He has a message for our age. It is a message of respect for one another, of reconciliation, of an attitude of love and compassion, which surely are qualities the world desperately needs. And to single him out as the most important enemy says volumes about the regime in Beijing.

KING: Richard Gere what is his greatness?

GERE: When you think of the man's life, it's -- he grew up on a farm in a very remote area of Tibet, just like us. And through enormous work on himself has created the man that we know now, who is highly developed in so many extraordinary ways and such a symbol and sign post for all of us as how we can live as human beings -- and be effective as human beings, not simply living in a cave meditating, but effective, in his case, as a leader. But for all of us to be effective in life in working with each other and communicating to and with each other, and being as creative as we possibly can be.

Now, in terms of statesmanship, I don't know there's another leader on this planet who has the depth of understanding from the heart and mind of a Dalai Lama, and he has much to teach all of our leaders.

KING: And I thank you both for joining us. Congressman Tom Lantos, actor and Buddhist Richard Gere from San Francisco and Los Angeles; and then the majority of the program spent with His Holiness the Dalai Lama.

Remember Captain Jeffrey McDonald? He is serving a life sentence for killing his wife and two children, always insists he is innocent, subject of the book and movie "The Fatal Vision." Remember that great Joe McGinnis effort?

Well, revelations about the FBI lab have now opened questions again about who did it? Jeffrey McDonald tomorrow night on LARRY KING LIVE. Thanks for joining us and good night.

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