Archive-Date: Thu, 02 Oct 1997 11:16:22 PST Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 11:19:22 -0700 (PDT) From: Lynn boyd Reply-To: Lynn boyd To: viewing_stones@triumf.ca Subject: ROSENBLUM EXHIBIT Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Fellow members: With only one vote from Craig, our list host, I am elected to write you about the exhibit now installed in Seattle, WA's Asian Museum of Art, The Rosenblum Collection. Craig and I viewed this together, and I hope he is to add to this some of the points we discussed during our viewing. A number of you know I am the least experienced of newbies, but I hope, also, that I am developing a keener interest continually. Probably to the detriment of my bonsai. So with this in mind let me tell you how I responded to to the exhibit. Please recall that Gail Sheldon gave us a very beautifully written reaction to how the rocks effected her. I won't repeat those same feelings, though I experienced them. Additionally, since I am a professional artist and teacher, I have to cope with all the baggage instilled by the structures of academia. Sometimes this creates some very disturbing ambivalence in one's reactions. Mine, anyway. Step through the door to the exhibit as I did and the World within Worlds opens on eons of the past. It takes a few moments to recognize the age of the scholars's whose possessions still reside in this world - my mind opens on the 1100's as a single point, then an abrupt toss from scholars to rocks and into the unnumbered geological ages, the Glacial, for one. That much established I have a practice instilled in me of studying the lighting and spatial arrangement of an exhibit. The effort before me couldn't have aroused any negative criticism, given the security and movement of people for which the exhibit must be planned. I saw no adverse reflections or dead areas of light, and the rocks were not dramatized with special individual lighting, though that would have been interesting in a few places. Most of the smaller stones were necessarily enclosed in cases, and that left in some cases the option of one-side viewing. Others could be viewed from all sides of the case - great advantage. My first reaction to individual presentations was very much effected by my perception of the unity between stand (dai) and stone. I was totally enthralled with this aspect. The convoluted line of stone repeated in some stands made the whole presentation a study of rhythm. This is the kind of thing that puts an art form into the universal world of arts, when one can meld it with another art form with a single distinction. Before stepping past the delight of all the smaller stones, I have to acknowledge my emotional preference for them, and my pleasure, they were exquisite, strong in forms, delightful in color, instantly identifiable by the ever-present aesthetic response to what is nature's world of landscape elements and whatever stimulates that response. These really enter the fibers of one's soul. No wonder they are locked in cases - they are universally appealing. Now for some dissonance in all that rapture. When I approached the large scholars' rocks for which I prepared myself by reading Worlds within Worlds I suspected I would move from the world of instant, recognizable reaction to the physical attributes of the rock to the world of the intellect. And, that is just what happened to me! Abstraction has its delights, and it has its thought structures to guide one's study. Since this is an intellectual pursuit the viewing and response changes. Remember, I speak as a newbie. Most of you will have established your responses already and have no struggle ahead of you. I speak of mine only. Unable to identify in the large white convoluted Taihu scholars' rocks an external theme I had to understand the scholars' philosophical approach to their rocks and I fell back again and again on the writings in the book, Worlds within Worlds. Soon I was seeing the circular holes and the twisted planes of the rocks as the universe, with black holes, time warps and what we now find in the heavens, and what they saw as different worlds in congregation in those rocks was quite similar. First step, taken. Then I was hooked! The intellectual can afford as much pleasure as the instant satis- faction of the physical. So saith a reborn ancient scholar? ;) The pattern of line in some of the stands gave away at times to carvings of appropriate life - fish. Though intriguing and beautiful, they probably did not please my tastes as much as those where the line flowed continuously with the line in the rock. Sometime I have to come back to this present world, and I think right now if I haven't already lost you way back there in another eon of history. And this does not begin to cover the realm of the dark colored Ying and Lingbi stones, possibly my favorites!, that I am perusing the book again to more firmly establish them. They were immensely intriquing to me. I will see this exhibit again. Lynn boyd@peak.org ----------- Please allow me to thank member, Chris Cochrane, here, for his gift to me of the book, Worlds within Worlds, which became the one indispensable volume for permanent record of the exhibit as well as the best contribution to understanding the historical significance and meaning of the rocks as presented in the collection. ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 02 Oct 1997 11:52:18 PST Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca From: "Craig J. Hunt" Reply-To: "Craig J. Hunt" To: Subject: Admin: Viewing Stone Mailing List Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 11:56:12 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi stone people; Just thought I'd send out a note to let you know that our little mailing list now has 59 members, from at least 5 countries (maybe more.....). Have a great weekend! Craig J. Hunt in Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada http://www.triumf.ca/people/craig/craig.htm ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 02 Oct 1997 12:16:26 PST Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca From: "Craig J. Hunt" Reply-To: "Craig J. Hunt" To: Subject: Cleaning & Polishing Stones Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 12:20:40 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello; One thing that came out of Lynn & I visiting the Rosenblum collection, was how to properly clean, polish and patina (wrong word) a stone or rock? The few stones I've collected have been cleaned, but don't have anything near the texture of the stones at this collection. The question is, how do you do it? Thanks for any advice! Have a great weekend! Craig J. Hunt in Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada http://www.triumf.ca/people/craig/craig.htm ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 02 Oct 1997 12:32:39 PST Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca From: "Craig J. Hunt" Reply-To: "Craig J. Hunt" To: CC: "Lynn boyd" Subject: Re: ROSENBLUM EXHIBIT Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 12:36:53 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello V.S. People; > With only one vote from Craig, our list host, I am > elected to write you about the exhibit now installed in > Seattle, WA's Asian Museum of Art, The Rosenblum Collection. Then it was unanimous! > Craig and I viewed this together, and I hope he is to add > to this some of the points we discussed during our viewing. Will add what I can. > A number of you know I am the least experienced of > newbies, but I hope, also, that I am developing a keener > interest continually. And my knowledge of viewing stones is at the most beginner level, but I have to start somewhere. > Probably to the detriment of my bonsai. > So with this in mind let me tell you how I responded to > to the exhibit. Please recall that Gail Sheldon gave us a > very beautifully written reaction to how the rocks effected > her. If any of our new list members would like to see Gail's trip report, contact me and I'll forward it to you. {snip} > Step through the door to the exhibit as I did and the World > within Worlds opens on eons of the past. It takes a few moments > to recognize the age of the scholars's whose possessions still > reside in this world - my mind opens on the 1100's as a single > point, then an abrupt toss from scholars to rocks and into the > unnumbered geological ages, the Glacial, for one. One wonders what events these stones have seen through out the eons. {snip} > That much established I have a practice instilled in me of > studying the lighting and spatial arrangement of an exhibit. > The effort before me couldn't have aroused any negative criticism, > given the security and movement of people for which the exhibit > must be planned. I wish they would have allowed photography of the stones, or at least sold high quality photographs of the stones. The photographs in the book just don't do these stones justice. > I saw no adverse reflections or dead areas of > light, and the rocks were not dramatized with special individual > lighting, though that would have been interesting in a few places. > Most of the smaller stones were necessarily enclosed in cases, > and that left in some cases the option of one-side viewing. Others > could be viewed from all sides of the case - great advantage. I found having to look through the Plexiglas cases at the small stones distracting, but I can understand the reason they are displayed that way. {snip} > I will see this exhibit again. I'll add my vote as well. If you have an interest in viewing stones, make the effort to see this collection. You won't be disappointed. According to Chris Cochrane's post to the Bonsai list on Fri, 6 Jun 1997; The tour schedule is; "It will travel to fine art museums in Seattle (Sept 5- Nov 16), Phoenix (Jan 3-Apr 12, '98), Zurich (May 16- Aug 20, '98), Berlin (Sept 25- Dec 13, '98) and Richmond VA USA (August 10-Oct. 24, '99)." > Please allow me to thank member, Chris Cochrane, here, for his > gift to me of the book, Worlds within Worlds, which became the > one indispensable volume for permanent record of the exhibit > as well as the best contribution to understanding the historical > significance and meaning of the rocks as presented in the > collection. I enjoyed looking through the book as well. Thanks Chris! If anyone else has toured the collection, I'd like to hear your opinions & thoughts too. Craig J. Hunt in Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada http://www.triumf.ca/people/craig/craig.htm ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 02 Oct 1997 16:13:23 PST Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca Date: Fri, 3 Oct 1997 01:15:54 +0200 Message-ID: <199710022315.BAA27686@inrete.it> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: viewing_stones@triumf.ca From: marco favero Reply-To: marco favero Subject: Re: Cleaning & Polishing Stones >Date: Thu, 02 Oct 1997 22:50:30 >To: "Craig J. Hunt" >From: marco favero >Subject: Re: Cleaning & Polishing Stones > >At 12.20 02/10/97 -0700, you wrote: >>Hello; >> >>One thing that came out of Lynn & I visiting the Rosenblum collection, was >>how to properly clean, polish and patina (wrong word) a stone or rock? The >>few stones I've collected have been cleaned, but don't have anything near >>the texture of the stones at this collection. >> >>The question is, how do you do it? >> >>Thanks for any advice! >> >>Have a great weekend! > >Hi Craig, > >remember my old post to bonsai club about suiseki:there you can find right >answer to your question. >in few words,Craig,you must rub each stone many times each day for all your >life with your hands for to give them your fatty perspiration and water them >daily;if you will be still living after many years of this practice,then maybe >you will see a little patina or better "Skin" around your stones. >if you think that those stones have been handled by generations of people,then >you can understand that only your farest discendants will admire your >perseverence. >in a recent article on an italian magazine,Chiara Padrini, one of the best >italian collectors togheter to Luciana Garbini,suggested to put on a suiban >two stones with dog form upon moss so to give a sensation of two dogs joking >on a meadow and at the same time, since you must water moss,you will remember >to keep wet the stones. >hope this helps. >regards >marco > >favero@inrete.it > >ps:i can scan pictures of those stones if someone wishes. > ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 03 Oct 1997 00:52:43 PST Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca Date: Fri, 3 Oct 1997 09:55:19 +0200 Message-ID: <199710030755.JAA10834@inrete.it> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: viewing_stones@triumf.ca From: marco favero Reply-To: marco favero Subject: My previous post(was RE:Cleaning&Polishing stones) Hi Folks, i send you my old post(gently forwarded to me by Craig)with answer from Geoline Havener for who read not it then,hoping it will be helpful. i add a bit more about polishing Craig:if you have a Dremel drill,you can polish your stone better with metallic mills;and after please go with your hands and water for to reach little by little that soft "Skin" which is desirable. i must specify my previous post on this subject about dog and moss:there is only one dog and moss is on daiza slab,i verified it on magazine. regards marco **************************************************************************** **** >At 03.53 09/08/96 GMT, you wrote: >>In article <960806012451_253712374@emout07.mail.aol.com>, >>RickBonsai@AOL.COM wrote: >> >>>Can someone please explain to me the fascination with suiseki? Although >this >>>question may ruffle a few feathers, that is not my intention. I simply >don't >>>see it (maybe I'm just narrow minded). And, along the same lines, why do >>>some of the bonsai magazines find it necessary to include this subject in >>>their publications, simply because it is of Japanese origin? There are >>>numerous other oriental 'arts' that are not featured, why suiseki? >> >>I don't know why the bonsai magazines have suiseki also. Probably since >>alot of people who enjoy bonsai also enjoy suiseki. >> >>As for what's the "fascination with suiseki", how many people do you >>know who "collect" rocks? If you ask anyone about any interesting >>rocks they have seen I am sure someone who will mention one in particular. >>There are stones that some people think are "interesting". Those who >>have stones that are really interesting will want to display them >>in some way. I think that suiseki is a "formal" way of displaying >>rocks you think are interesting. Many people "don't get it." Just >>ask my wife what she thinks. To make showing rocks more formal people >>have come up with labels for certain types of stones etc. I enjoy >>suiseki simply because I think they look cool (and I can't kill them). >> >>> >>>Rick >>>S-most, Tx > >Hello All, > >i just add my 0.2 cents about suiseki;my dear Geoline Hualani and Mohd >Fauzie Bin Abd Karim explained very good philosophy of suiseki but they >forgot some important detail:suiseki is water-stone water is purification >of >body,stone is >purification of soul.in his long way between world,from 1,500 years in >China, >suiseki has met different currents of thought,of philosophy,of spirituality >so that it has had means for elevation not only >artistic;Taoist,Buddhism,Zen >and Shintoism biased guidance principles about evaluation of suiseki >values. >Wabi,Sabi,Shibui and Yugen are complex and interconnected conceits of >japanese >culture who must be singled out in suiseki otherwhise form,color,structure >lose >each meaning. >in this conceits taste and oriental spirituality meet way for to make inner >and for to understand all that that is around us,for to build an >atmosphere, >an harmonious balance,good condition of >tranquillity,loneliness,modesty,maturity >and serenity;for to re-create isolation,contemplation,ritual elegance,for >to >accept mystery,eternal verities with various faces and darkness whom we >don't >understand. >stone,come to us across a life of millennia,plenty of pains and >transformations >in continuous slowest metamorphosis imposed by nature,shows that all that >builded a perfect creation who reflects whole universe in small size. >SEK-TAO aka stone's way:long exercise of communication with suiseki where >goal >is greater sensibility,inner peace and balance inside and outside us. >it is easier to understand all this conceits if you look two celebrated >stones >like 'YUME NO UKIHASHI'(bridge floating on dream) or 'SUE NO >MATSUYAMA'(pine's >mountain);or if you go to Zen temple to Kyoto where in yard plenty of sand >there >are three islands of three mountains and from whatever side you are you see >only >two stones,truth has always a dark face.Shogun Ashikaga Yoshimasa showed >always >stones during tea's ceremony into Kinakuji temple(gold pavilion)of Kyoto. >there is a difference between suiseki and biseki:suiseki is stone with his >skin >no laugh please,i have had in my hands a suiseki and it is true;skin forms >after >years and years of work with watering and rubbing because portion of your >fat >penetrates into surface of stone and creates skin. >when you collect a stone,it isn't clean,with your love and your labour you >clean it,each day you water and rub it just like your bonsai;it don't grows >but it becomes each day more nice and you become more nice into your being, >so >you grows interiorly and your nature's love grows with you. > >when i touch your soft skin, >moon smiles between clouds, >stars send a love's song; >when i will understand words, >we will be an only thing, >and with eyes turned to sky, >i will see your dark SHIN.(heart) > >Biseki is fine stone,it can become suiseki if it has potential >peculiarities, >otherwise it is only a fine stone. >suiseki has many characteristics:structure,form,color and surface. >for structure it must have a hardness between 4 and 7 of scale >Monhs(hardness >of metals). >for form there are >mountains(YAMAGATA)islands(SHIMAGATA)huts(AMAYADORI)birds >etc. >color is important but it must not too much showy:in japanese country it is >much appreciated the black(kuro),but it is nice also various gradation of >gray,brown,green or dark red;very famous TORA the stones-tiger. >for surface there is skin (HADAAI)if it is corroded by water,if no,it is >KAWAME. >the center of stone is the heart (SHIN). >i hope this helps to understand suiseki philosophy. > >p.s.:it isn't true that you cannot kill a stone;if you break it,all work of >much years is lost;sorry mon ami Hud,your snoopy broken during carriage,but >don't worry,you will have another. >regards. > >marco gai-jin ronin > >favero@inrete.it ******************************************************************************** >At 11.48 31/08/96 -0600,Geoline Hualani Havener(havener@netten.net) you >wrote: >>Darling Marco explains: > >>Water, when referenced with mountains in classic Chinese poetry is >>synonymous with the celestial tide or the cosmic ocean where the Islands >of >>the Blessed Immortals float. Water and mountains are attributes of the >>dragon gods. >> >>Mother China rests on a large portion of the continent of Asia; whereas, >>Japan rests in many islands as does Hawaii. The rock forms which the >>Chinese hold sacred are patterened after their own unique mountain terrain >>and spirits; whereas, the Japanese cherished rock forms are patterned >after >>their own island mountain terrain and spirits. >> >>Thus the stone forms which are sacred to China are miniature >>representatives of the sacred mountains and the Blessed Immortals. >> >>Meanwhile, the skin with which you refer to is not our Nordic skin Hud, >but >>the patina which is created by mineral deposits from pouring water and >>caressing hands. The shiny patina created by generations of hand >caressing >>is part of ancestor worship where each generation adds to the shine and >>smoothness of the family heirloom stones. The hopes and dreams pour like >>water from one generation to the next from spiritual and ritual caressing >>of these heirlooms. >> >>I'm not very good at remembering my own poetry so bear with me if I >rewrite >>a haiku which I wrote for Mr. Oki: >> >> Sacred spirit stones >> Sighs of ancient ancestors >> Whisper in the sands... >> >>Geoline, >> Memphis Musubi Hard Rock Bonsai Cafe >> Happy Hour Special: Celestial Soda Pop ******************************************************************************** ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 03 Oct 1997 12:30:29 PST Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca Date: Fri, 3 Oct 1997 12:33:58 -0700 (PDT) From: Herb Gustafson Reply-To: Herb Gustafson To: "Craig J. Hunt" CC: viewing_stones@triumf.ca Subject: Re: Cleaning & Polishing Stones Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Thu, 2 Oct 1997, Craig J. Hunt wrote: > One thing that came out of Lynn & I visiting the Rosenblum collection, was > how to properly clean, polish and patina (wrong word) a stone or rock? The > few stones I've collected have been cleaned, but don't have anything near > the texture of the stones at this collection. > > The question is, how do you do it? I remember this same question coming up at a table in the now famous BCI Toronto Bar. The answer from Norry Kirchten (sp.) of Luxembourg impacted me most. He demonstrated on a small black stone being passed around. Touching his fingertips to his forehead just under the scalpline, he collected a small amount of natural body oil. Then he gently rubbed it on the stone, showing the love and affection of a totally possessed suiseki nut. " Just do this for a hundred years " he said " there is no suitable shortcut ". Herb Gustafson Eugene, Oregon ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 03 Oct 1997 13:08:21 PST Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca Date: Fri, 3 Oct 1997 13:11:25 -0700 (PDT) From: Lynn boyd Reply-To: Lynn boyd To: viewing_stones@triumf.ca Subject: CLEANING & POLISHING STONES Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Herb, and others: The polish on stones was one of things that puzzled Craig and me considerably during our tour of the exhibit. But, this came about for a different reason than just a wish to make our own stones presentable originally. Written on the placards of some Taihu stone displays were explanations that the stones had been " polished to look like marble." If you look at that direct quote it leads me to wonder if such a polishing effort was not something other than the loving touch of a suiseki owner. It implies to me that the wish to make them look like marble has entailed some direct application of effort other than what time and loving touch would supply. I am quite certain I believe the age and devotion these stones have undergone has served their surface well, but to indicate that they were originally desired to look like marble and were so polished really puzzles me. I may have missed something in the Worlds within Worlds volume that suggests an answer, but I cannot find anything now. It is hard to accept that an accompanying exhibit curator would make a simple language error that gives the wrong implication. It would surely have been caught before this. Since these Scholars Rocks were of a time before the Japanese suiseki conventions were evolving I wonder how accurate is applying suiseki restraints about rock treatment to them. I assume you all know what a vacuum I have to think from with regard to the stones; I just hope to remedy that with these questions. Lynn ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 03 Oct 1997 13:54:09 PST Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca Date: Fri, 3 Oct 1997 13:57:29 -0700 (PDT) From: Herb Gustafson Reply-To: Herb Gustafson To: Lynn boyd CC: viewing_stones@triumf.ca Subject: Re: CLEANING & POLISHING STONES Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Fri, 3 Oct 1997, Lynn boyd wrote: > > Herb, and others: > > The polish on stones was one of things that puzzled > Craig and me considerably during our tour of the exhibit. > But, this came about for a different reason than just > a wish to make our own stones presentable originally. > > Written on the placards of some Taihu stone displays were > explanations that the stones had been " polished to look like > marble." SNIP Lynn, As in Bonsai, Suiseki no doubt has its share of shortcuts in order that we might enjoy some semblance of satisfaction within our lifetimes. I have no idea how these exhibit stones were treated. You might not even get an answer that is entirely forthcoming if you were to inquire. I will not be the first to admit that I, dare I say it, shhhhh, polish my stones with less than the sweat off my brow. I am not ashamed. Heck, I use a chainsaw on some Bonsai ! This might be a nice time for some confessions from the group. C'mon how do y'all get YOUR patina ? Anyone ? Armorall ? HA ! Herb Gustafson Eugene, Oregon ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 03 Oct 1997 13:54:33 PST Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca Date: Fri, 3 Oct 1997 16:57:14 -0400 (EDT) From: ManFont@aol.com Reply-To: ManFont@aol.com Message-ID: <971003165549_2032381997@emout14.mail.aol.com> To: viewing_stones@triumf.ca Subject: Re: CLEANING & POLISHING STONES Lynn Boyd in a message dated 97-10-03 16:11:52 EDT, you write: << The polish on stones was one of things that puzzled Craig and me considerably during our tour of the exhibit. But, this came about for a different reason than just a wish to make our own stones presentable originally. Written on the placards of some Taihu stone displays were explanations that the stones had been " polished to look like marble." If you look at that direct quote it leads me to wonder if such a polishing effort was not something other than the loving touch of a suiseki owner. It implies to me that the wish to make them look like marble has entailed some direct application of effort other than what time and loving touch would supply. I am quite certain I believe the age and devotion these stones have undergone has served their surface well, but to indicate that they were originally desired to look like marble and were so polished really puzzles me. SNIP Since these Scholars Rocks were of a time before the Japanese suiseki conventions were evolving I wonder how accurate is applying suiseki restraints about rock treatment to them. Lynn >> Lynn, When the "World within Worlds" site was available on the Internet, Rosenblum had stated that evidence of human intervention was evident (polishing, carving and hole drilling) on many of the Chinese Scholars Rocks in his possession. This only reinforced his love and belief in the ART aspect of these stones. He did not devalue them as a strict adherence to Japanese Suiseki criteria would have required. Luis Fontanills ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 03 Oct 1997 14:45:59 PST Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca Date: Fri, 3 Oct 1997 14:48:58 -0700 (PDT) From: Lynn boyd Reply-To: Lynn boyd To: viewing_stones@triumf.ca Subject: Re: CLEANING & POLISHING STONES Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Fri, 3 Oct 1997 ManFont@aol.com wrote: > SNIP > > Since these Scholars Rocks were of a time before the Japanese > suiseki conventions were evolving I wonder how accurate is applying > suiseki restraints about rock treatment to them. > Lynn >> --------------- > > Lynn, > > When the "World within Worlds" site was available on the Internet, Rosenblum > had stated that evidence of human intervention was evident (polishing, > carving and hole drilling) on many of the Chinese Scholars Rocks in his > possession. This only reinforced his love and belief in the ART aspect of > these stones. He did not devalue them as a strict adherence to Japanese > Suiseki criteria would have required. > > Luis Fontanills > > ----------------- Luis, Thankyou, Luis, I believe I can find that material in my files printed from that page. However, printed before I questioned or was intending to see the exhibit and forgotten about until now. Your sentence, "This only reinforced his love and belief in in the ART aspect of these stones.", contains the kernel of strong truth, I think, about the art of the literati, as does the whole aspect of "presentation" in so many Chinese and Japanese arts. "Presentation" is an art in itself, I would guess. Isn't this the province of Kei do ? Lynn ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 03 Oct 1997 20:36:03 PST Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19971003222233.006a1e50@mailhost.iAmerica.net> Date: Fri, 03 Oct 1997 22:22:33 -0500 To: viewing_stones@triumf.ca From: Glen Miller Reply-To: Glen Miller Subject: Patina MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hello, First of all allow me to introduce myself, I am Glen Miller from Tulsa, Oklahoma. I am a newbie for I have only begun the enjoyment of Suiseki in the last 2 to 3 years. But I do know some stuff about stones in regards to Precious Stones. I admit I have been lurking around for some time now and for the most part, enjoying the stimulating conversation. Might I be so brash as to suggest that in some way the stones are tumbled, as in a container with a lite oil and some more abrasive stone to do the so called patina. This method would be simple enough even in some medieval times. Allowing flowing water to be the driving force to tumble. This is one method used today to polish objects even into the smallest of areas. Well that's my 2 cents worth now you can say I have tried to shed some light on the subject, or simply dismiss my ideas as to being a newbie. Thanks for allowing me to participate. Glen in Oklahoma ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sat, 04 Oct 1997 01:24:55 PST Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca From: "Joe Davies" Reply-To: "Joe Davies" To: "Herb Gustafson" , "Lynn boyd" CC: Subject: Re: CLEANING & POLISHING STONES Date: Sat, 4 Oct 1997 09:20:39 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: > This might be a nice time for some confessions from the group. > C'mon how do y'all get YOUR patina ? Anyone ? Armorall ? HA ! > > Herb Gustafson > Eugene, Oregon Some thoughts...... Firstly, the Japanese and Chinese versions of the art have many significant differences, and my experience is what is a truth in one is often a falsehood in the other. For example, the human interaction/enhancing aspects of stones has an almost complete polarisation between the two camps - the Japanese version believes any alteration is an insult to the natural process of the formation of the stone whereas the Chinese view is alteration is not only acceptable but sometimes positively advantageous. This view extends to the 'finish' on the surface of the stone, the Japanese preferring a long, slow 'natural' process of hand-rubbing whereas the Chinese will often polish by whatever mean are available. I would suggest that the artifical polishing of any stone (with the exception of biseki - 'pretty stones') should not be undertaken without prior careful thougt as to what one is trying achieve. Is the stone not beautiful already? What would additional polishing accomplish? If you do wish to enhance the surface finish/tecture i.e. the patination here are a couple of recipes. 1. On hard dense minerals such as Serpentine, Jadeite, Nephrite, Jasper, old Palaeozoic type limestones that already have a smooth surface try seeing how they look when they are wet. If the wetting of the stone brings out depth and colour (as it does on a pebble on the beach), then it is probably a candidate for the washing-up liquid (UK term, in the USA I believe you would call it liquid detergent - whatever - the stuff you add to water when you wash your dishes!). Simply ensure the stone is completely dry and add a few drops and massage it into the surface of the stone, repeat and then leave the stone in the sunshine but under cover for a couple of days. The wetting agent contained in the detergent penetrates the surface and provides a finish that enhances and brings out the colour - as though th stone were wet. Then remove any excess with a dry, clean cloth and lightly buff up the stone. 2. As a variation of the above technique a stronger, deeper lustre can be obtained by massaging in neutral colour shoe polish, then buffing with cloth and a small brush. 3. If the stone is an absorbant type material then try using an oil. Vegetable Oils used for cooking can be used with success, Apply the oil, let it soak in and 'dry' for a couple of days then buff. I have also used wood finishing oils with success. Personally my view is that I dont like to see stones overly polished. However the key thought is that stones do appear to have that 'dusty' appearance and the 'polishing' helps to eliminate that. Whatever your choice I do advise that any finish should be non-permanent. As to the current thread of Taihu stones being polished to look like Marble, well I believe they are a variant of marble anyway, the limestone they are composed of has been metamorphosed to a harder, denser variant of limestone and has many characteristics of a marble - the granular, crystallized form with various hues and colours is typical. I can only think that the comments at the WWW exhibition about polishing Taihu to look like limestone is somewhat out of context by the exhibitors. Regards Joe Davies ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 06 Oct 1997 08:37:58 PST Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca From: "Craig J. Hunt" Reply-To: "Craig J. Hunt" To: CC: Subject: Fw: Re: ROSENBLUM EXHIBIT Date: Mon, 6 Oct 1997 08:42:01 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Gang; I'm not sure what happened with Gary's post, but it came through as an empty message with an attachment, so I've copied it an am resending it as their are people on the list who can't receive attachments. I hope you don't mind Gary. Thanks for the response! Craig J. Hunt in Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada http://www.triumf.ca/people/craig/craig.htm ---------- > From: Gary Bolstridge > To: "Craig J. Hunt" > Subject: Re: ROSENBLUM EXHIBIT > Date: Friday, October 03, 1997 5:30 AM > Attachment: ---------- > From: > To: > Date: > > Craig Hunt wrote: > > > > If anyone else has toured the (Rosenblum) collection, I'd like to > hear your opinions & thoughts too. > > > Gary writes: > > I viewed the Rosenblum collection when it was at the Harvard > University Sackler Gallery in Boston early this year. Like others, > I was not only impressed but inspired by the collection. I feel > it is a "once in a lifetime experience". > > Viewing the Stones in the Gallery enviornment was a bit difficult. > My wife and I got there early (just as the doors opened), but it > did not take long for the Gallery to fill up with other people, > which was very distracting. No chance to hear the silence of the > Stone speak directly to me. While viewing the Stone, either in > front of it or from across the room, other people would intrude > on my contemplation, not out of disrespect but just by the > difficulty of sharing the same space without intruding (which I > was guilty of just by being there also!). So I was able to educate > my eyes, telling by brain to see particular values of the Stones > but not having the chance of letting my heart help the brain in > feeling what the stones had to share. > > I did not find the presentation of the Stones at all distracting, > the plexiglass did not bother me. It was clear enough to see right > through it and there were no scratches or blemishes. The lighting > was very good, creating somewhat darker areas between the Stones > and highliting the Stones themselves. > > I was very interested in the manner of construction and versatility > of the dia on which each Stone was presented. From the simple to the > ornate to the innovative. I found great inspiration for designing > stands for my collection. > > It was a unique opportunity to compare stones of different regions > to one another. I started playing a game where I would try to identify > the origin of the Stone before reading the label. This helped me to > see the subtle differences which constitute Stones which have a > similar composition. Of course, there was no problem recognizing > the Stones from famous areas. > > After reading Marco's excellent post(s) about suiseki, I realize that > I have a (begining) collection of biseki. None of my stones have the > requirements to be considered suiseki. I have not been doing my part > to help them attain the "skin" so wonderfully described. I usually > only handle them while deciding on a design for the dia. I have noticed > while doing this it is rewarding to feel the shape - weight - texture > of the stones and I begin to establish a personal relationship with > them. They tend to tell me something about themselves while I tell > them something about myself. I look forward to putting something > of me into the soul of the stone. > > Gary Bolstridge > Rhode Island Bonsai Society > > > > ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 06 Oct 1997 09:40:39 PST Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca Message-ID: <2.2.32.19971006164044.006d5d28@mailhost.fyi.sas.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 06 Oct 1997 12:40:44 -0400 To: viewing_stones@triumf.ca From: Hilton Freed Reply-To: Hilton Freed Subject: Re: Fw: Re: ROSENBLUM EXHIBIT Gary, What is biseki ? >> Gary writes: >> >> I viewed the Rosenblum collection when it was at the Harvard >> University Sackler Gallery in Boston early this year. Like others, >> I was not only impressed but inspired by the collection. I feel >> it is a "once in a lifetime experience". >> >> Viewing the Stones in the Gallery enviornment was a bit difficult. >> My wife and I got there early (just as the doors opened), but it >> did not take long for the Gallery to fill up with other people, >> which was very distracting. No chance to hear the silence of the >> Stone speak directly to me. While viewing the Stone, either in >> front of it or from across the room, other people would intrude >> on my contemplation, not out of disrespect but just by the >> difficulty of sharing the same space without intruding (which I >> was guilty of just by being there also!). So I was able to educate >> my eyes, telling by brain to see particular values of the Stones >> but not having the chance of letting my heart help the brain in >> feeling what the stones had to share. >> >> I did not find the presentation of the Stones at all distracting, >> the plexiglass did not bother me. It was clear enough to see right >> through it and there were no scratches or blemishes. The lighting >> was very good, creating somewhat darker areas between the Stones >> and highliting the Stones themselves. >> >> I was very interested in the manner of construction and versatility >> of the dia on which each Stone was presented. From the simple to the >> ornate to the innovative. I found great inspiration for designing >> stands for my collection. >> >> It was a unique opportunity to compare stones of different regions >> to one another. I started playing a game where I would try to identify >> the origin of the Stone before reading the label. This helped me to >> see the subtle differences which constitute Stones which have a >> similar composition. Of course, there was no problem recognizing >> the Stones from famous areas. >> >> After reading Marco's excellent post(s) about suiseki, I realize that >> I have a (begining) collection of biseki. None of my stones have the >> requirements to be considered suiseki. I have not been doing my part >> to help them attain the "skin" so wonderfully described. I usually >> only handle them while deciding on a design for the dia. I have noticed >> while doing this it is rewarding to feel the shape - weight - texture >> of the stones and I begin to establish a personal relationship with >> them. They tend to tell me something about themselves while I tell >> them something about myself. I look forward to putting something >> of me into the soul of the stone. >> >> Gary Bolstridge >> Rhode Island Bonsai Society Sincerely, Hilton Freed Information Specialist 919-677-8000 ext. 6044 sashdf@unx.sas.com fax: 919-677-4444 For on-line information on the World Wide Web: click On --> http://www.sas.com ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 06 Oct 1997 13:50:21 PST Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca Message-ID: <199710062058.QAA15015@smtp1.erols.com> From: "Chris Cochrane" Reply-To: "Chris Cochrane" To: Subject: Biseki [was, RE' Rosenblum Exhibit] Date: Mon, 6 Oct 1997 16:49:44 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi, Hilton. Nice to see a friend from North Carolina on-line. If you'd like to visit to do some collecting, PLEASE do... but make sure the weather is warm and dry here. I'm sure you will like what we find if you are willing to do some substantive trekking/paddling. You write, > What is biseki ? Marco already said it is literally a "beautiful stone," but not a suiseki. Biseki are stones that have been carved or polished to enhance their beauty. Biseki do not have to have the suggestive shape of suiseki, which are noteworthy for their power to suggest a scene from nature or an object closely associated with nature. The most often displayed biseki are flower-pattern stones that are polished in order to clearly see their pattern. Any stone whose faces have been artificially enhanced are considered biseki by some. While using dishwashing detergent or mineral oil to enhance the dark finish of a stone seems common among many North American enthusiasts, many European enthusiasts decry any method of enhancing a stones surface other than wetting with water and hand rubbing. The Japanese value stones most that have been altered least but both commercial dealers and collectors have used grinding chipping, cutting, painting, acid burning, polishing and applying matte laquer to alter stones (see Covello & Yoshimura text, p. 32). Marco suggests that a stone which has not yet attained a "skin" by years of rubbing may not reach the level of suiseki, and therefore should be considered biseki. He suggest that surface is required before the stone can have the aesthetic presence to draw feelings of "wabi, sabi, shibui and yugen" from the viewer. Some other classifications for Japanese stones (as noted by Covello & Yoshimura) include: meiseki- literally "famous stones"-- used for suiseki or biseki that have become famous due to their outstanding qualities and beauty; yuraiseki- literally "historic stones"-- for suiseki or biseki owned by famous historical persons or linked to notable historic events; reiheki- literally "steep cliff spirit"-- for Chinese stones characterized by sharp, highly eroded surfaces, convoluted forms and pass-through holes. Chris... C. Cochrane, mailto:sashai@erols.com, Richmond VA USA ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 07 Oct 1997 06:15:22 PST Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca Message-ID: To: viewing_stones@triumf.ca MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Craig Coussins Reply-To: Craig Coussins Subject: Natural or Unnatural- Suiseki presentation. Date: Tue, 07 Oct 97 00:43:40 +0100 ( + ) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; X-MAPIextension=".TXT" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable After reading the many and extremely interesting views expressed by Lynn = and Joe I have to say that while many people will argue the rights and wrongs of cutting, polis= hing altering etcetera a stone, we should clearly understand one important thing. It is your stone. You can do what you like to the stone if it pleases you. Joe's answer is,= in my humble opinion, the most relevant when it comes to the questions that Lynn posed to us. Joe = has a number of stones in cut and uncut condition and while I follow the pure Japanese understandin= g of not adding or detracting, other than extranious material from a suiseki, I still use = his superb suggestions for polishing. I would love to apply the patina by hand but my natural oils are in shor= t supply...just a thought.....the application by natural oils....would that mean you would have to be greas= y, doity, smelly and sweaty to get enough natural oils to patinate a suiseki? I have enough trouble = explaining to my wife about the expense of a Bonsai Pot without her having to put up with musk laden = armpits. Did anyone lean forward and smell the Rosenblum Rocks? Limestone is quite easily found in the UK and the Sholars Rocks type of = shapes are found mainly in the Midlands to the South West, Yorkshire Dales to the New Forest. These = include the fabulous limestone outcrops exposed on hillsides for centuries and then chopped = off by less than savoury characters (no doubt with sweaty armpits!) for sale to Garden Centres. = These amazing formations are then used in rockeries or occassionaly a piece is spotted by a suiseki = collector unaware...as far as he or she is concerned...of the stones provinence. I then, oh sorry, they then take thestone home and soak it in a solutio= n of 'Path Clear' a mild acid that removes the soft outer skin and reveals the stone within the mass. = The broken area usually is quite flat and need no further work before creating a Dai or Daiza. The = stone is however quite polished already as all the loose stuff is now off and the hard satin fin= ish material is left, heavily pitted and occasioanly holed, thats for sure, but shiny never the less. Off the very varied types of stones that I have it is only this limestone= that has that natural shine after this treatment..a treatment only used on this specific material I would = add. The many other rocks have been polished using Joes suggestions and they = are, as Joe suggests, not overpolished. Recently a Crysanthemum Suiseki stone in a rectangular but very plain sha= pe with some damage, was offered by Sothebys as a sholars stone. Highly polished to bring out = the flowers in the stone, this very ordinary looking thing sold for around $8 thousand dollars. Either = my perception of suiseki or scholars stones leaves a lot to be desired or someone with more money tha= n brains decided that this was very valuable. It may have been someone upping the anti for future = 'real' sales however. You know, "buy this one Madam, a similar Scholars stone went for $8 thous= and recently so this ones a real bargain at 5. They are all the rage now" This year I was one of the four judges at the National Bonsai and Suiseki= Convention in Italy. My co judges were Maria Theresa Volunterio, the Chair of the Italian Suiseki = Association, Master Keiichi Fujikawa and Kaname Kawai, Japanese Suiseki authorities specially brough= t over to lead the judges. Master Kawai runs a business supplying top quality Suiseki in Jap= an and he specifically asked to see every single one of the Suiseki Bases to confirm that they = were UNCUT. As he did not smell any I would have to assume that he accepted the sheen that many of = the Suiseki were sporting....most achieved through the techniques that Joe described. I did ascertain from Maste Kawai that our general decision to find natur= al flat based stones were in tune with most Japanese thinking. We, as westerners, did not really under= stand the felling or way of Suiseki as the great majority of suiseki preferred here were Mountain Sca= pes. In Japan a simple stone without much shape but with depth of colour and pleasant touch was = very popular. Now that may have explained the high price paid for the stone in the Sothebys sale= . Master Kawai mentioned that while the perfect stone is uncut or altered in Japan, sometimes ston= es of inferior quality are cut for sale with a cheap Dai (not Daiza!) as it is obviously easier to make = a simple Dai for a cut base. But on the other hand it was a perfectly acceptable practise to mechanica= lly, IE by machine or preferably by hand rubbing with degrees of polishing grit in the old way = to bring out the lustre in a specific patterned stone such as a Flower type suiseki. A case of thinking with the other side of the brain. Both Japanese visitors were quite surpised at the extremely high quality = of Italian Suiseki on display and entered for judging. The top 50 went into the first Italian Conventio= n Exhibition Book. This book, now published takes the form of the Kokofu or Sakufu annuals. If anyone = wishes I can supply the address details.. The surpise was that every single stone presented was naturally FLAT BASE= D. That all folks and thanks for the entertaining and very informative discu= ssions. Yours Aye and best wishes from Craig Coussins. Web Site with masses of great Info at: http://www.btinternet.com/=ACcraig.coussins/ ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 07 Oct 1997 08:22:38 PST Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca From: "Craig J. Hunt" Reply-To: "Craig J. Hunt" To: "Craig Coussins" , Subject: Re: Natural or Unnatural- Suiseki presentation. Date: Tue, 7 Oct 1997 08:26:37 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Craig Coussins writes; {snip} > I would love to apply the patina by hand but my natural oils are in short supply...just a thought.....the > application by natural oils....would that mean you would have to be greasy, doity, smelly and sweaty > to get enough natural oils to patinate a suiseki? I have enough trouble explaining to my wife about > the expense of a Bonsai Pot without her having to put up with musk laden armpits. Did anyone lean > forward and smell the Rosenblum Rocks? I was quite close (12") when looking at a few of the stones, and didn't notice any disagreeable smell. One thing that I could see happening by using a natural oil is that it would go rancid, and end up with a smelly stone. I imagine that people have tried all sorts of different types of oils for wetting & polishing the stones. Any warnings or recommendations? {snip} > I then, oh sorry, they then take thestone home and soak it in a solution of 'Path Clear' a mild acid > that removes the soft outer skin and reveals the stone within the mass. "Path Clear" being muratic acid? (Used for cleaning concrete?) Thanks for the interesting post Craig! Craig J. Hunt in Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada http://www.triumf.ca/people/craig/craig.htm ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 07 Oct 1997 09:06:15 PST Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca Date: Tue, 7 Oct 1997 09:09:18 -0700 (PDT) From: Lynn boyd Reply-To: Lynn boyd To: viewing_stones@triumf.ca Subject: SUISEKI PRESENTATION - Natural/Unnatural Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Craig C., Very interesting post. It has certainly been encouraging and enlivening on this forum to see the posts come in as yours, Joe Davies' and Chris Cochrane's have with information that permits the groundwork for questions from some of us. Maybe Herb's armorall admission was a levelling informality. For me the "rub my forehead for oil, then apply to stone" method would produce a finish of soft beige formula of makeup with a delicate scent more attuned to other goals than polishing rocks." Somehow, no thank you. I must follow Craig Hunt's question - I wondered if it were muratic acid, too. Speaking of acid and stones, I asked about the stalagmites and stalactites in a deep cave here in Oregon and was told that part of the action on these stone growths that appeared slick surfaced in areas, was caused by the acid that was present in the rain water that seeped into the cavern and dripped over the formations. I have heard the acidic waters mentioned in regard to some Chinese lakes and stones. Surely this is not all rain water. Having little knowledge of earth sciences I suppose some odd causes at times, but I had supposed acidic water in lakes to be caused by some other source than rain water. I hate to admit my mind is already devising a plan, with a rock in mind, to see what result I get from this acid bath. Having had the bad experience once of thoroughly pitting and ruining a bathtub in England with an experiment, I hope, Craig C., that you will just add a bit to that information. Lynn ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 07 Oct 1997 10:19:39 PST Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca From: "Joe Davies" Reply-To: "Joe Davies" To: "Craig Coussins" , Subject: Re: Natural or Unnatural- Suiseki presentation. Date: Tue, 7 Oct 1997 18:15:29 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: Joe>>> Excellent post from Craig, some thoughts........ After reading the many and extremely interesting views expressed by Lynn and Joe I have to say that while many people will argue the rights and wrongs of cutting, polishing altering etcetera a stone, we should clearly understand one important thing. It is your stone. Joe>>> This is true and I personally advocate that the subject has an inherrent sense of subjectivity, the stone I love may be the one you hate and vice versa. However I feel that those of us that attempt to act as educators and facilitators have to wear two hats - to remember and vocalise the historical and traditional facets, but also to take the subject forward and align it to our own cultural tastes and nuances. So.... I now believe that the default option should be the traditional unless the stone or ones inner senses speaks to one and advocates an alteration of the stone. In Japan tradition is all, innovation nothing when it comes to the arts. In the west I believe we have a differing approach so therefore either have to follow blindly or branch out. Where we go wrong is to adopt our own tastes and styles then get Japanese to judge. We all harp on about the freedom to express oneself thru the emotion and how the stone talks to us then stand around bowing to every passing 'oriental' as though they had an inner native perspective that was lost on us philistines. I would love to apply the patina by hand but my natural oils are in short supply...just a thought.....the application by natural oils....would that mean you would have to be greasy, doity, smelly and sweaty to get enough natural oils to patinate a suiseki? I have enough trouble explaining to my wife about the expense of a Bonsai Pot without her having to put up with musk laden armpits. Did anyone lean forward and smell the Rosenblum Rocks? Joe>>> hahaha In a follow up post by Craig I see that there may be confusion about this, the oil acts as a lubricator rather than as a 'finish', it provides a little friction to the rubbing action. If you prefer then use a tiny amount of a neutral oil such as vegetable oil. Joe Davies ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 07 Oct 1997 14:05:48 PST Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca Date: Tue, 7 Oct 1997 23:09:08 +0200 Message-ID: <199710072109.XAA16854@inrete.it> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: viewing_stones@triumf.ca From: marco favero Reply-To: marco favero Subject: Re: Natural or Unnatural- Suiseki presentation. At 08.26 07/10/97 -0700, you wrote: >Craig Coussins writes; > >{snip} > >> I would love to apply the patina by hand but my natural oils are in short >supply...just a thought.....the >> application by natural oils....would that mean you would have to be >greasy, doity, smelly and sweaty >> to get enough natural oils to patinate a suiseki? I have enough trouble >explaining to my wife about >> the expense of a Bonsai Pot without her having to put up with musk laden >armpits. Did anyone lean >> forward and smell the Rosenblum Rocks? > >I was quite close (12") when looking at a few of the stones, and didn't >notice any disagreeable smell. One thing that I could see happening by >using a natural oil is that it would go rancid, and end up with a smelly >stone. I imagine that people have tried all sorts of different types of >oils for wetting & polishing the stones. Any warnings or recommendations? i'm philosophically contrary to use whatever oil for to reach an artificial patina except our own natural oil coming by our sebaceous glands,sorry;as i'm at the same way contrary to cut,to transform,to concoct each stone;i think we must accept that that nature gives us without to falsify it with the excuse that we must do an masterpiece. in this case i'm conservator,yes,and i'm proud of this simple fact. stone reachs us from millions of years of transformations,why to spoil its form with useless manipulations? Chiara Padrini says in her student manual: even me i used many oils or fats for a fast polishing,please,don't use them,you make nothing but to soil them;you must have much ENDURANCE,the time of suiseki ripening is as long as a bonsai at least then years,why to run?and i agree with her totally. to soil >> I then, oh sorry, they then take thestone home and soak it in a >solution of 'Path Clear' a mild acid >> that removes the soft outer skin and reveals the stone within the mass. > >"Path Clear" being muratic acid? (Used for cleaning concrete?) i think Craig Coussins refers to oxalic acid (COOH-COOH),not muriatic acid: muriatic acid is strong and can damage stones above all those with hardness below 5 of Monsh scale(Monsh scale measures metals' hardness;the best stones must reach in its structure from 4 to 7,below 4 stone easily decays and is crumbly). i used oxalic acid for to take away only clay,i leave all stone from 5 to 7 days in a concentration of acid of 10% with warm water;only caution is to cover of water all stone for to avoid acid yellow crystallitation on it;after this procedure it is easy to clean it and i find also that polishing is better. hope this helps. marco the guardian of ancient stones. favero@inrete.it ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 07 Oct 1997 14:06:11 PST Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca Date: Tue, 7 Oct 1997 23:09:01 +0200 Message-ID: <199710072109.XAA16844@inrete.it> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: viewing_stones@triumf.ca From: marco favero Reply-To: marco favero Subject: Re: Natural or Unnatural- Suiseki presentation. At 00.43 07/10/97 +0100, you wrote: >This year I was one of the four judges at the National Bonsai and Suiseki Convention in Italy. My co >judges were Maria Theresa Volunterio, the Chair of the Italian Suiseki sorry,Craig,Maria Teresa Volonterio isn't what you states above,the best italian suiseki are represented by Luciana Garbini,Chiara Padrini,Andrea Schenone etc who founded this year the A.N.A.S.(national lovers suiseki association),and the best stones are theirs published in two italian magazines as Bonsaitaliano and Bonsaitalia.Luciana Garbini has in her collection about thousand stones,Chiara Padrini has many beautiful suiseki between others one of the best italian Amayadori Ishi:ask for info to Felix Rivera;in his very marvellous book "the japanese art of miniature landscape stones" Felix quotes many times my friends with pictures of their stones,i found never the name of your "Chair of the Italian Suiseki";Mrs Volonterio is writer and editor of magazine "bonsai arte e natura",but she occupies a little spot in italian suiseki world,and i had never seen her suiseki in all shows which i visited. "rendons donc a' Caesar,ce qui est a' Caesar,et a' Dieu ce qui est a' Dieu." (Give then to Caesar,what belongs to Caesar,and to God what belongs to God). >The surpise was that every single stone presented was naturally FLAT BASED. for to explain this reason,i can send you,if you wish,what Luciana Garbini wrote some time ago about limestone and its general geological situation in Ligurian Alpes. very glad to read other parts of your post,i found them very interesting. thanks for trouble to read now mine:-). regards marco favero@inrete.it ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 07 Oct 1997 14:29:31 PST Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca Message-ID: <199710072132.RAA06967@smtp3.erols.com> From: "Chris Cochrane" Reply-To: "Chris Cochrane" To: "Craig Coussins" , Subject: Re: Natural or Unnatural- Suiseki presentation. Date: Tue, 7 Oct 1997 17:29:04 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, Craig. Nice post! You write re' Japanese perspective, > <...BIG SNIP...>=20 > We, as westerners, did not really understand the felling or way of > Suiseki as the great majority of suiseki preferred here were=20 > Mountain Scapes. In Japan a simple stone without much shape=20 > but with depth of colour and pleasant touch was very popular.=20 I'd be interested to hear more on "felling or way of suiseki" which you inserted. Marco had commented on "SEK-TAO" aka "stone's way" in a previous post, an= d perhaps there is a "seki-do" or "ishi-do" that indicates the "Way of Suiseki." Does the concept of "felling"-- which relates to trees for me-= - have special meaning in stone aesthetics. I hope so, though I won't be disappointed just to learn the tern means something in the United Kingdom that any schoolchild would recognize... :---)=20 If you are saying that the Japanese suiseki aesthetic includes stones tha= t=20 do not evoke a natural scene or an object related to nature, I am really surprised. You make the comment so casually that it would appear suiseki are as clos= e to a "fondling stone," which I think of as palmed-size river stone rubbed in the hand for its smooth feel, as to a visually evokative object. If s= o, I've skipped many a suiseki across local creeks and streams... :---( Thanks for both your stretching the possibilities of suiseki aesthetics a= nd for adding content to our knowledge of Japanese traditional practices. Best wishes, Chris... C. Cochrane, mailto:sashai@erols.com, Richmond VA USA =20 Now that may have explained the high price paid for the stone in the Sothebys sale. Master Kawai mentioned that while the perfect stone is uncut or altered in Japan, sometimes ston= es of inferior quality are cut for sale with a cheap Dai (not Daiza!) as it is obviously easier to make = a simple Dai for a cut base. But on the other hand it was a perfectly acceptable practise to mechanically, IE by machine or preferably by hand rubbing with degrees of polishing grit in the old way = to bring out the lustre in a specific patterned stone such as a Flower type suiseki. A case of thinking with the other side of the brain. Both Japanese visitors were quite surpised at the extremely high quality = of Italian Suiseki on display and entered for judging. The top 50 went into the first Italian Conventio= n Exhibition Book. This book, now published takes the form of the Kokofu or Sakufu annuals. If anyone wishes I can supply the address details.. The surpise was that every single stone presented was naturally FLAT BASE= D. That all folks and thanks for the entertaining and very informative discussions. Yours Aye and best wishes from Craig Coussins. Web Site with masses of great Info at: http://www.btinternet.com/=ACcraig.coussins/ ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 07 Oct 1997 15:17:39 PST Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca Message-ID: <199710072220.SAA12995@smtp2.erols.com> From: "Chris Cochrane" Reply-To: "Chris Cochrane" To: "marco favero" , Subject: Re: Natural or Unnatural- Suiseki presentation. Date: Tue, 7 Oct 1997 18:16:51 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_01BCD34D.2F1FFFA0" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_01BCD34D.2F1FFFA0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi, Marco. Thanks for your latest viewingstone posts. You write, > <...SNIP...> > sorry,Craig,Maria Teresa Volonterio isn't what you states above,the best > italian suiseki are represented by Luciana Garbini,Chiara Padrini,Andrea > Schenone etc who founded this year the A.N.A.S.(national lovers suiseki > association),and the best stones are theirs published in two italian > magazines as Bonsaitaliano and Bonsaitalia. Since viewingstones are much more my passion than bonsai, I hope to meet some of these folks. Can you tell me where to write them, Marco? Are there any viewingstone exhibitions scheduled in Italy north of Rome in November after the 10th of the month? A friend in Potomac Bonsai Association (Joe Gurtierrez) also suggested that I contact Maria Teresa Volonterio. I recall she had an incredible resume related to bonsai when she ran for a director's seat in Bonsai Clubs International several years ago. Dan Barton and Joe Davies have both related stories of Chiara... she has quite a fan club in United Kingdom. You were kind enough to send me Luciana's video and an English translation of the audio portion. I've not heard of Andrea Schenone, before. Have any of these published photos of their stones or other Italian stones in a comprehensive fashion? I'd like to learn what I can of the European, and especially the Italian, prerspective. From the bonsai magazine that you sent me, it is obvious that Italians are much more intertested in details of aesthetic presentation than most Americans. Where is the Crespi Museum located. It must be fantastic! OH, JOY!!!!! As you requested, I am attaching a jpg of me. In November, I probably will need to be dressed similarly for northern Italy.... but I hope their will be some warm weather. VERY BEST WISHES... & looking forward to seeing you soon! Chris... C. Cochrane, mailto:sashai@erols.com, Richmond VA USA {ATTACHED JPG SNIPPED, by Craig Hunt, craig_hunt@geocities.com} ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 07 Oct 1997 15:42:58 PST Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca Message-ID: <199710072245.SAA19004@smtp2.erols.com> From: "Chris Cochrane" Reply-To: "Chris Cochrane" To: Subject: Re: Natural or Unnatural- Suiseki presentation. Date: Tue, 7 Oct 1997 18:42:33 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit My sincere apologies to the viewingstone list for sending a private message intended for Marco Favero to the list. An even worse insult was to attach a picture of myself... :---(((. MEA CULPA, MEA CULPA, MIA ... ... ...!!! Chris... C. Cochrane, mailto:sashai@erols.com, Richmond VA USA ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 08 Oct 1997 14:29:32 PST Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca From: "Craig J. Hunt" Reply-To: "Craig J. Hunt" To: "marco favero" , Subject: Using Acid to Clean Stones, was Re: Natural or Unnatural- Suiseki presentation. Date: Wed, 8 Oct 1997 14:33:34 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit marco favero wrote; > i think Craig Coussins refers to oxalic acid (COOH-COOH),not muriatic acid: > muriatic acid is strong and can damage stones above all those with hardness > below 5 of Monsh scale(Monsh scale measures metals' hardness;the best stones > must reach in its structure from 4 to 7,below 4 stone easily decays and is > crumbly). > i used oxalic acid for to take away only clay,i leave all stone from 5 to 7 > days in a concentration of acid of 10% with warm water;only caution is to cover > of water all stone for to avoid acid yellow crystallitation on it;after this > procedure it is easy to clean it and i find also that polishing is better. > hope this helps. I think this is the first time I've seen specific (as opposed to general) instructions for cleaning stones. Thanks Marco! Have to go shopping this weekend....... BTW, there is info & safety advice on cleaning fabric with oxalic acid on this page; http://www.culligan-man.com/ironstn.htm Using oxalic acid to clean rust stains on bathroom fixtures; http://www.msue.msu.edu/msue/imp/mod02/01500388.html General info on cleaning using acids; http://clean.rti.org/ac_tp.htm Oxalic acid is apparently available from hardware & drug stores. I hope these links are useful to someone. Craig J. Hunt in Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada http://www.triumf.ca/people/craig/craig.htm ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 08 Oct 1997 14:58:51 PST Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca From: "Craig Coussins" Reply-To: "Craig Coussins" To: Subject: Re: Oily Stones Date: Wed, 8 Oct 1997 22:53:12 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: Perhaps my Humour got lost in translation Marco...or perhaps yours is more subtle than mine! Yours Aye and with very best wishes Craig Coussins. ---------- From: marco favero To: viewing_stones@triumf.ca Subject: Re: Natural or Unnatural- Suiseki presentation. Date: 07 October 1997 22:09 At 08.26 07/10/97 -0700, you wrote: >Craig Coussins writes; > >{snip} > >> I would love to apply the patina by hand but my natural oils are in short >supply...just a thought.....the >> application by natural oils....would that mean you would have to be >greasy, doity, smelly and sweaty >> to get enough natural oils to patinate a suiseki? I have enough trouble >explaining to my wife about >> the expense of a Bonsai Pot without her having to put up with musk laden >armpits. Did anyone lean >> forward and smell the Rosenblum Rocks? > >I was quite close (12") when looking at a few of the stones, and didn't >notice any disagreeable smell. One thing that I could see happening by >using a natural oil is that it would go rancid, and end up with a smelly >stone. I imagine that people have tried all sorts of different types of >oils for wetting & polishing the stones. Any warnings or recommendations? i'm philosophically contrary to use whatever oil for to reach an artificial patina except our own natural oil coming by our sebaceous glands,sorry;as i'm at the same way contrary to cut,to transform,to concoct each stone;i think we must accept that that nature gives us without to falsify it with the excuse that we must do an masterpiece. in this case i'm conservator,yes,and i'm proud of this simple fact. stone reachs us from millions of years of transformations,why to spoil its form with useless manipulations? Chiara Padrini says in her student manual: even me i used many oils or fats for a fast polishing,please,don't use them,you make nothing but to soil them;you must have much ENDURANCE,the time of suiseki ripening is as long as a bonsai at least then years,why to run?and i agree with her totally. to soil >> I then, oh sorry, they then take thestone home and soak it in a >solution of 'Path Clear' a mild acid >> that removes the soft outer skin and reveals the stone within the mass. > >"Path Clear" being muratic acid? (Used for cleaning concrete?) i think Craig Coussins refers to oxalic acid (COOH-COOH),not muriatic acid: muriatic acid is strong and can damage stones above all those with hardness below 5 of Monsh scale(Monsh scale measures metals' hardness;the best stones must reach in its structure from 4 to 7,below 4 stone easily decays and is crumbly). i used oxalic acid for to take away only clay,i leave all stone from 5 to 7 days in a concentration of acid of 10% with warm water;only caution is to cover of water all stone for to avoid acid yellow crystallitation on it;after this procedure it is easy to clean it and i find also that polishing is better. hope this helps. marco the guardian of ancient stones. favero@inrete.it ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 08 Oct 1997 14:58:58 PST Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca From: "Craig Coussins" Reply-To: "Craig Coussins" To: Subject: Your Comments Date: Wed, 8 Oct 1997 22:30:59 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: Marco has made some comments that should be explained to the readers so that there is no confusion about who is who in Italy. For readers all over the world it is sometimes pleasurable to hear about other countries and what happens in Bonsai and Suiseki circles. IF READERS ARE BORED WITH THIS INFORMATION THEN PLEASE DELETE BEFORE READING ANY FURTHER. I know well Maria Theresa Volunterio and Maria Chiara Padrini. I looked after them both in Russia when they were friends and were visiting the first Russian Bonsai Convention. Mrs. Padrini is not a member of the Italian Bonsai Federation UBI that I was judging at. The Unione Bonsaisti Italiani was formed last year from the three major organizations in Italy. Mrs. Padrini was not in attendance at this event as far as I am aware. I was honored by being asked to attend that inaugural meeting in Milan where Maria Theresa's husband Guiseppe Volunterio acted as Chair and then the new President and while I am very respectful of all lovers of Suiseki, I was simply mentioning the fact that at that time Maria Theresa was the Chair of the Italian Suiseki Association that was formed this year. Maria Theresa was standing in until a President could be elected. Maria Theresa has enormous knowledge of Suiseki and we have been collecting together in Italy. Maria Theresa attends Conventions all over the world and then writes through her Magazine that is a highly respected publication. I have also written many articles for her. Luciana Garbini, Chiara Padrini, Andrea Schenone etc who founded this year the A.N.A.S.(national lovers suiseki association) I do not know if they are a member of UBI at this moment. Luciana Garbini has done enormous benefits to Italian Suiseki and while Marco has said that she has the best Suiseki, I would only say that everyone's Suiseki is the best as that is entirely subjective. Quoting numbers like one thousand also means nothing as quantity does not necessarily mean quality. However in Luciana's case I quite believe that many of her Suiseki are indeed superb. My small collection of a few thousand Stones have the same problem only I would be hesitant to say that they are all wonderful. I am more than delighted to part with my stones to my Suiseki friends all over the world as many of you already know...and I hope enjoy! I would suggest Marco that if you have personal comments to make about anyones comments in this excellent chat box then perhaps it should be personal and not public. I appreciate your concern for the ladies and friends of your own circle. I have not ignored them but I was clearly stating a particular event and a particular situation that I thought would have interested the readers. I apologize to all the readers that have survived so far and assure you I shall be less ' responsive ' in future. To see some excellent Italian Bonsai and Suiseki, the best 50 FROM THE FIRST ITALIAN BONSAI AND SUISEKI CONVENTION, UBI 1997, are in the year book. These are not representative of the entire Italian spectrum but representative of the delegates and exhibitors that supported and attended that special First congress in Imola. The Email of UBI is " ubi@migamma.it " for the attention of Patrizio Fermani, Segreteria (Secretary) Patrizio has some English so keep it clear what you wish to know. If you wish I can give you some Italian to ask the necessary questions. Yours Aye and with very best wishes Craig Coussins. and if you already have not been there, please visit my site at: http://www.btinternet.com/~craig.coussins/ or ask any major search engine for Craig Coussins and you wll find my Pages. ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 08 Oct 1997 14:59:07 PST Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca From: "Craig Coussins" Reply-To: "Craig Coussins" To: Subject: Re: Chris Cochrane Date: Wed, 8 Oct 1997 22:48:39 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-ID: Hi Chris, Sorry about my hasty non spell checked Email. It is not FELLING but Feeling. I tried to explain that the Japanese do not only look for 'in your face' landscapes and mountains but look for many other things in a suiseki that many of us, as westerners, do not yet understand. Perhaps its a Zen thing. I do practice Zen Buddhism in a certain way and I can 'sort of' understand their way of thinking, but I still prefer the 'in your face' landscape never the less. Thank you for remembering the great lady that Maria Theresa is. She runs the main school of Bonsai called Scuola D'Arte Bonsai where the master is the extremely well respected 'Hideo Suzuki'. As one of John Yoshio Naka's close friends, indeed Maria Theresa refers to the Master as her adopted father, she has a tremendous knowledge of Bonsai and Suiseki that transcends mere interest. Maria Theresa is a close friend of another Master, Kimura and is very highly respected by both men. The Superb Crespi nursery is in Milan.The local number in Milan, there are another three branches, is 0331/491850 and 1. When in Milan you must visit one of Italy's leading Bonsai Artists and one of the best Bonsai Artists in Europe, SALVATORE LIPORACE, who also has a School of Bonsai there. This amazing man is one of my heroes as he is unassuming and absolutely talented. Yours Aye and with very best wishes Craig Coussins. and if you already have not been there, please visit my site at: http://www.btinternet.com/~craig.coussins/ or ask any major search engine for Craig Coussins and you wll find my Pages. ---------- From: Chris Cochrane To: Craig Coussins ; viewing_stones@triumf.ca Subject: Re: Natural or Unnatural- Suiseki presentation. Date: 07 October 1997 22:29 Hi, Craig. Nice post! You write re' Japanese perspective, > <...BIG SNIP...> > We, as westerners, did not really understand the felling or way of > Suiseki as the great majority of suiseki preferred here were > Mountain Scapes. In Japan a simple stone without much shape > but with depth of colour and pleasant touch was very popular. I'd be interested to hear more on "felling or way of suiseki" which you inserted. Marco had commented on "SEK-TAO" aka "stone's way" in a previous post, and perhaps there is a "seki-do" or "ishi-do" that indicates the "Way of Suiseki." Does the concept of "felling"-- which relates to trees for me-- have special meaning in stone aesthetics. I hope so, though I won't be disappointed just to learn the tern means something in the United Kingdom that any schoolchild would recognize... :---) If you are saying that the Japanese suiseki aesthetic includes stones that do not evoke a natural scene or an object related to nature, I am really surprised. You make the comment so casually that it would appear suiseki are as close to a "fondling stone," which I think of as palmed-size river stone rubbed in the hand for its smooth feel, as to a visually evokative object. If so, I've skipped many a suiseki across local creeks and streams... :---( Thanks for both your stretching the possibilities of suiseki aesthetics and for adding content to our knowledge of Japanese traditional practices. Best wishes, Chris... C. Cochrane, mailto:sashai@erols.com, Richmond VA USA Now that may have explained the high price paid for the stone in the Sothebys sale. Master Kawai mentioned that while the perfect stone is uncut or altered in Japan, sometimes stones of inferior quality are cut for sale with a cheap Dai (not Daiza!) as it is obviously easier to make a simple Dai for a cut base. But on the other hand it was a perfectly acceptable practise to mechanically, IE by machine or preferably by hand rubbing with degrees of polishing grit in the old way to bring out the lustre in a specific patterned stone such as a Flower type suiseki. A case of thinking with the other side of the brain. Both Japanese visitors were quite surpised at the extremely high quality of Italian Suiseki on display and entered for judging. The top 50 went into the first Italian Convention Exhibition Book. This book, now published takes the form of the Kokofu or Sakufu annuals. If anyone wishes I can supply the address details.. The surpise was that every single stone presented was naturally FLAT BASED. That all folks and thanks for the entertaining and very informative discussions. Yours Aye and best wishes from Craig Coussins. Web Site with masses of great Info at: http://www.btinternet.com/¬craig.coussins/ ---------- ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 08 Oct 1997 15:41:24 PST Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca Date: Wed, 8 Oct 1997 15:44:15 -0700 (PDT) From: Lynn boyd Reply-To: Lynn boyd To: viewing_stones@triumf.ca Subject: ATTN: MARCO FAVERO - LOSSES Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Marco, I think this will speak for a lot of us in this stone art and the other arts that your country's recent loss of the art works at the basilica of St. Francis of Assissi, and other losses is grievous to all of us. I listened in horror at the loss of Giotto's work following the earthquake. That is a loss that leaves a void in the ascent of art. And, further, my fondness for Italy wishes it not to lose a chip of land, building or art but to stay intact as I last saw it. Lynn ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 08 Oct 1997 17:51:40 PST Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca From: "Craig Coussins" Reply-To: "Craig Coussins" To: Subject: Re: ATTN: MARCO FAVERO - LOSSES Date: Wed, 8 Oct 1997 23:50:39 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: I respectfully echo Lyns heart in the matter of St Francis's glory. Yours Aye and with very best wishes Craig Coussins. ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 09 Oct 1997 05:00:33 PST Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca Message-ID: To: viewing_stones@Triumf.CA MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Craig Coussins Reply-To: Craig Coussins Subject: A Japanese perspective on Suiseki Date: Thu, 09 Oct 97 00:54:21 +0100 ( + ) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; X-MAPIextension=".TXT" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Print this out for ease of reading. I exhibited a selection of Suiseki at the European Suiseki Exhibition in Bruges this Year. Organised by Willie and Gudrun Benz, it was an uncomplicated display with some very fine stones from around Europe. I was running workshops and demonstrating at the European Bonsai Convention being held in conjunction with each other. Willie introduced me to his excellent magazine that featured this month, an entire photgraphic perspective on Scolars Rocks that examined the Rosenblum collection. What was interesting in this issue was a discourse from the PRESIDENT OF THE NIPPON SUISEKI ASSOCIATION, Matsuura Arishige. Altho' the translation was almost perfect there were a few small mistakes that altered some of these perceptions.Tee was mentioned and assumed to be associated with the tea ceremony but the meaning I think was TAO as in Taoism, the major form of Buddhism that swept Japan at the time of stone appreciation. The text is extracted sparingly from the excellent translation by Martin = Pauli of Switzerland. I would like to read you a couple of salient points that may interest = the chat group. There are five main elements according to Matsuura. These are: SHAPE QUALITY COLOUR TEXTURE AGE. The final judgement of any stone is an overall appreciation of these elements interwoven and reacting with each other. Japanese appreciate the Mountain Image either of Fuji or the soft rolling mounds of hills. Indeed these represent Japanese landscapes. Japanese do not understand our Western stones. Sansui-ishi "If you ask a Japanese person to judge a nice European stone you will probably be disapointed. The reaon is that Japanese have been brought up in a world totally different to our in all aspects of life, = culture, religion, symbolism, colours, shapes, food, signs, language and nature. If you in the west see a rock that resembles a boat you will see a steam boat or a sail boat while a Japanese collector will see a vague suggestion of a Treasure Boat which plays an important part in their history" Dobutsu-ishi "We see a rock that reminds us of a dog, a wolf or a dinosaur. The Japanese do not have an understanding to any of these but will see in another rock or rocks animals that play a part in their culture such = as Inari, the fox. One of the best known of the spirits( Kami), it is sai= d that if something goes wrong it must have been Inari. Indeed their are = many stories that revove around Inari and suiseki representing specific shapes of Inari represent specific stories. Another rock may represent an Ox and a Boy, another famous Japanese story or fable. Rocks with these images may mean nothing to us but to Japanese they are one of the imporatnt elements of Suiseki and the more you can appreciate these cultural differences and background the more you will understand Suiseki from a Japanese perspective." "Western people tend to react to a 'Realistic Picture', while Japanese DO NOT. In appreciating stones with particular forms it is not simply the a matter of appreciating the the interesting shape, but = as far as Japanese Suiseki collectors are concerned it is the FEELING of the original landscape or form that is subtly suggested in the shape of the suiseki" A hint of the image allows the mind to imagine the rest. A sort of Impressionism used in Suiseki as opposed to art.CC "Only suiseki that are kept inside are hand rubbed with hand OR WITH A DRY CLOTH." Cutting Stones: "The stones bottom should be more or less flat,not cut. It is allowed to remove a small protrusion if it makes it difficult to place in a Suiba= n or Daiza." Ok folks thats all but if you wish me to extract further then let me know. The Suiseki Journal is published by Willi Benz, The European Suiseki Association is at, Karlsruher Strasse 101, D69775, Ketsch, Germany. Member ship is 50 D Mark per year about $30 per year. The Journal is in English and is great value....heck their aint much else in English.= Yours Aye and best wishes from Craig Coussins. Web Site with masses of great Info at: http://www.btinternet.com/=ACcraig.coussins/ ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 09 Oct 1997 05:00:37 PST Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca Message-ID: To: viewing_stones@Triumf.CA MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Craig Coussins Reply-To: Craig Coussins Subject: A Japanese perspective on Suiseki Date: Thu, 09 Oct 97 00:54:21 +0100 ( + ) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; X-MAPIextension=".TXT" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Print this out for ease of reading. I exhibited a selection of Suiseki at the European Suiseki Exhibition in Bruges this Year. Organised by Willie and Gudrun Benz, it was an uncomplicated display with some very fine stones from around Europe. I was running workshops and demonstrating at the European Bonsai Convention being held in conjunction with each other. Willie introduced me to his excellent magazine that featured this month, an entire photgraphic perspective on Scolars Rocks that examined the Rosenblum collection. What was interesting in this issue was a discourse from the PRESIDENT OF THE NIPPON SUISEKI ASSOCIATION, Matsuura Arishige. Altho' the translation was almost perfect there were a few small mistakes that altered some of these perceptions.Tee was mentioned and assumed to be associated with the tea ceremony but the meaning I think was TAO as in Taoism, the major form of Buddhism that swept Japan at the time of stone appreciation. The text is extracted sparingly from the excellent translation by Martin = Pauli of Switzerland. I would like to read you a couple of salient points that may interest = the chat group. There are five main elements according to Matsuura. These are: SHAPE QUALITY COLOUR TEXTURE AGE. The final judgement of any stone is an overall appreciation of these elements interwoven and reacting with each other. Japanese appreciate the Mountain Image either of Fuji or the soft rolling mounds of hills. Indeed these represent Japanese landscapes. Japanese do not understand our Western stones. Sansui-ishi "If you ask a Japanese person to judge a nice European stone you will probably be disapointed. The reaon is that Japanese have been brought up in a world totally different to our in all aspects of life, = culture, religion, symbolism, colours, shapes, food, signs, language and nature. If you in the west see a rock that resembles a boat you will see a steam boat or a sail boat while a Japanese collector will see a vague suggestion of a Treasure Boat which plays an important part in their history" Dobutsu-ishi "We see a rock that reminds us of a dog, a wolf or a dinosaur. The Japanese do not have an understanding to any of these but will see in another rock or rocks animals that play a part in their culture such = as Inari, the fox. One of the best known of the spirits( Kami), it is sai= d that if something goes wrong it must have been Inari. Indeed their are = many stories that revove around Inari and suiseki representing specific shapes of Inari represent specific stories. Another rock may represent an Ox and a Boy, another famous Japanese story or fable. Rocks with these images may mean nothing to us but to Japanese they are one of the imporatnt elements of Suiseki and the more you can appreciate these cultural differences and background the more you will understand Suiseki from a Japanese perspective." "Western people tend to react to a 'Realistic Picture', while Japanese DO NOT. In appreciating stones with particular forms it is not simply the a matter of appreciating the the interesting shape, but = as far as Japanese Suiseki collectors are concerned it is the FEELING of the original landscape or form that is subtly suggested in the shape of the suiseki" A hint of the image allows the mind to imagine the rest. A sort of Impressionism used in Suiseki as opposed to art.CC "Only suiseki that are kept inside are hand rubbed with hand OR WITH A DRY CLOTH." Cutting Stones: "The stones bottom should be more or less flat,not cut. It is allowed to remove a small protrusion if it makes it difficult to place in a Suiba= n or Daiza." Ok folks thats all but if you wish me to extract further then let me know. The Suiseki Journal is published by Willi Benz, The European Suiseki Association is at, Karlsruher Strasse 101, D69775, Ketsch, Germany. Member ship is 50 D Mark per year about $30 per year. The Journal is in English and is great value....heck their aint much else in English.= Yours Aye and best wishes from Craig Coussins. Web Site with masses of great Info at: http://www.btinternet.com/=ACcraig.coussins/ ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 09 Oct 1997 09:26:38 PST Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 09:29:37 -0700 (PDT) From: Lynn boyd Reply-To: Lynn boyd To: viewing_stones@triumf.ca Subject: APPRECIATING CRAIG'S POST Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Craig, I found an outlook in your post that pleased me very much in as much as you bring to the foreground the importance of understanding the cultural background of the Japanese. Without diving too deeply you suggest very well the importance of the mythology of a culture when you describe the visions certain animal stones arrouse in Japanese viewers. If we were to further explore the myths surrounding those animal characters, the culture's very strong reaction to those metaphorical creatures would enlighten us immensely. It is one thing to grasp that the stones call forth those relationships to mythological and metaphorical symbols, but quite another to respond with the feelings of reverence, fear, challenge or power that a Japanese would have who is steeped in the whole aura of the myth. When we follow and respect the conventions of suiseki as an art we probably should acquaint ourselves at that level of the art where those feelings are active in the stone's symbolic nature. That approach is not so difficult to take with the correct reference material on the mythological creatures and their meaning in Japanese culture and history, though modern Japan's reaction has probably evolved to an appreciative level rather than the sacred level felt before. It probably is not what we want to do in enjoying the art; rather, I think we are for the most part adapting it to our very personal supposed and imagined visions as suits our own immediate culture. But, an exhibit like the Rosenblum stirs our response and reminds us that throughout, over and above the rocks we look upon was a realm of myth and metaphor that is and will stay foreign to us, but is a link in our continuity with the past. My own feeling for the art following the exhibit is primarily a transference from experiences with other art forms that have taught me to look far deeper, far beyond and then admit that I am without complete understanding of the exhibit's representation of a culture. I merely took the pulse and left the heart of it a mystery. Lynn ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 09 Oct 1997 14:24:00 PST Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 23:27:45 +0200 Message-ID: <199710092127.XAA20183@inrete.it> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: viewing_stones@triumf.ca From: marco favero Reply-To: marco favero Subject: Re: Your Comments At 22.30 08/10/97 +0100, you wrote: >Marco has made some comments that should be explained to the readers so >that there is no confusion about who is who in Italy. For readers all over >the world it is sometimes pleasurable to hear about other countries and >what happens in Bonsai and Suiseki circles. >IF READERS ARE BORED WITH THIS INFORMATION THEN PLEASE DELETE BEFORE >READING ANY FURTHER. Craig, Touche'! sorry readers,i apologize for my comments which should have done in private e-mail to Craig Coussins.my answer therefore will be privately to him,even why with in my mind "wabi and sabi" it is the best "Sek-Tao" or "Seki-Do" or "Ishi-Do" as said Chris Cochrane in his previous post. thanks and excuse me again for this trouble to your "kami". marco favero@inrete.it ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 18:50:00 PST Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca Message-ID: <199710110159.VAA24199@smtp1.erols.com> From: "Chris Cochrane" Reply-To: "Chris Cochrane" To: "Craig Coussins" , Subject: Re: A Japanese perspective on Suiseki Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 21:49:22 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit It is a joy to see Craig Cousins, Joe Davies and Marco Favero continue refining separate though related comments on viewingstone aesthetics. I hope my friend Marco will continue his comments on aesthetics in the viewingstone forum (is this the Internet Viewingstone Club... "IVC"?), and I hope we continue hearing positive comments about any enthusiasts pursuing this hobby throughout the world. Craig wrote about a Japanese perspective on suiseki gleaned from an article by Matsuura Arishige, President of Nippon Suiseki Assoc. in Willie Benz's _Suiseki Journal_. The comments taken out of context sounded ridiculous jingoistic though I don't see the elements of suiseki being in the least limited. Matsuura notes: > There are five main elements according to Matsuura. These are: > SHAPE > QUALITY > COLOUR > TEXTURE > AGE. > The final judgement of any stone is an overall appreciation of these > elements interwoven and reacting with each other. > Japanese appreciate the Mountain Image either of Fuji or the soft > rolling mounds of hills. Indeed these represent Japanese landscapes. > Japanese do not understand our Western stones. Of course, these are physical elements and would seem common to be considered. While each of us relates to our own experience, it would seem an incredible leap of thought to think the Japanese "do not understand" Western stones. A view of snow-capped Mt. Fuji certainly is as evokative to non-Japanese suiseki enthusiasts as our local peaks. The only stones I've seen popularized that stretch credulity are American desert stones. After reviewing books on mountains of the American West, however, I've seen that my hesitancy to accept these was just my lack of knowledge regarding that landscape. I've come to the conclusion that Melba Tucker isn't sitting cross-legged smoking peyote beside a desert cactus. -- Covello/Yoshimura focused on aesthetic elements as primary: suggestiveness, subdued color, balance, wabi/sabi/shibui/yugen and added elements for classification as shape, color, surface pattern, place of origin and special qualities (including biseki, meiseki, yuraiseki & reiheki). -- Rivera lists proportion, structure, shape, texture, nurtured aging, color, patina, harmony/balance/rhythm, power of suggestion, relation to chaos/fractal theory (dynamics of order arising from apparent disorder), relation to wabi/sabi/shibui/yugen. Rivera summarizes: The suiseki imitates nature in content, proportion,shape, color & texture to communicate with the viewer on experiential, intellectual & emotional levels through rhythm, balance and harmony. Again, these are not elements (or even values) that would tend to limit our understanding to regional perspectives. In fact, the lore of each region of the world can enrich aesthetic response. On the other hand, I can see some young turk swearing that his five pieces of gravel in a plate filled with sand represents his favorite rap group... and I've seen a piece of slag glass represented as a suiseki in a public bonsai display. Perhaps we should all retreat to Matsuura's origin of the aesthetic... it is certainly a great place for everyone to start... :--). > "Only suiseki that are kept inside are hand rubbed with hand OR > WITH A DRY CLOTH." I'd like to hear more of IVCers understanding of this comment. Rivera speaks of keeping newly collected "young" stones (_shin-seki_) outside for watering, hand-rubbing and exposure to the sun. He notes that surface patina is less than desirable on new stones and describes the aging process as Marco has as very time consuming. In a period of several years of watering and hand-rubbing the stone, its sharp edges will soften and a rich patina appears. I've heard Joe Davies suggest a suiseki should only be displayed indoors where its pristine cleanliness can be maintained. I've seen stones maintained outside in suiban that I've assumed were considered suiseki. What practices are common? Matsuura's comment suggests only some suiseki are maintained inside and that these are never wetted. What of others? > Cutting Stones: > "The stones bottom should be more or less flat,not cut. It is allowed > to remove a small protrusion if it makes it difficult to place in a Suiban > or Daiza." Oops, didn't a Japanese judge just tell you Craig that the word is "dai," not "daiza"... :-) What an interesting middle-road approach to cutting. You shouldn't cut, but if you do... only cut a defiant protrusion. That still negates stones that have been deftly halved and neatly bedded in a flat-bottomed dai. I can see that would leave more of the spirit of a complete stone. May the pebbles on the beach grow to mighty boulders, that will only be shorn of their most irritating nodules. > The Suiseki Journal is published by Willi Benz, The European Suiseki > Association is at, Karlsruher Strasse 101, D69775, Ketsch, Germany. > Member ship is 50 D Mark per year about $30 per year. The Journal > is in English and is great value....heck their aint much else in English. I see Jim Hayes loading his squirrel gun, Craig. Is the 50 D Mark a membership to the Association as well as a subscription to the journal? How often it is published and what is the the format (size, no. of pages, photographic quality). I'm sure postage to the US must be a consideration... can you elaborate? Is there any chance that Willie has an email address? THANKS!!! Chris... C. Cochrane, mailto:sashai@erols.com, Richmond VA USA ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 18:52:00 PST Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca From: "Garry Garcia" Reply-To: "Garry Garcia" To: "Joe Davies" , "Craig Coussins" , Subject: Re: Natural or Unnatural- Suiseki presentation. Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 20:52:10 -0500 Message-ID: <01bcd5e8$498df3e0$8d5f47cc@ggarcia.vvm.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I haven't checke my e-mail for a week, so pardon me for taking a little while to respond. I agree totally with Joe Davies....IT IS YOUR ROCK!! It is our privelage, and right to judge our stone according to our standards, the Japanese are indeed very good at bonsai, but I think they are limited in their judgement with Suiseki. My wife is Asian, and guess what she sees what most westerners see in a stone, and yes she was born and raised in Asia. If you go collecting, like a stone, take it home, it is of your opinion that this is a good one, why go to a book, and compare it, or seek consultation, you liked it for a reason and should not have to justify, compare, or defend your choice. Lead instead of following!! Patina....that should be natural....body oil is good for briar pipes, but stones, I don't think so, and Acid!!!! come on enough is enough, either it is a naturally good stone or it is not. My opinion........to cut a stone is taking away its natural beauty, and its magic if you will...if it is too damm big on the bottom, maybe it is not correct, or perhaps a deep suiban. Well, enough of that, oh by the way when did this mailing list become a bonsai topic....I love bonsai, as many of us do, but maybe some out there aren't into bonsai....... Chris have a good time in Italy, I spent a year over there...alot to see, and alot to do..enjoy. Garry Garcia -----Original Message----- From: Joe Davies To: Craig Coussins ; viewing_stones@triumf.ca Date: Tuesday, October 07, 1997 12:24 PM Subject: Re: Natural or Unnatural- Suiseki presentation. >Joe>>> Excellent post from Craig, some thoughts........ > > >After reading the many and extremely interesting views expressed by Lynn >and Joe I have to say >that while many people will argue the rights and wrongs of cutting, >polishing altering etcetera a >stone, we should clearly understand one important thing. > >It is your stone. > >Joe>>> This is true and I personally advocate that the subject has an >inherrent sense of subjectivity, the stone I love may be the one you hate >and vice versa. However I feel that those of us that attempt to act as >educators and facilitators have to wear two hats - to remember and vocalise >the historical and traditional facets, but also to take the subject forward >and align it to our own cultural tastes and nuances. So.... I now believe >that the default option should be the traditional unless the stone or ones >inner senses speaks to one and advocates an alteration of the stone. > >In Japan tradition is all, innovation nothing when it comes to the arts. In >the west I believe we have a differing approach so therefore either have to >follow blindly or branch out. Where we go wrong is to adopt our own tastes >and styles then get Japanese to judge. We all harp on about the freedom to >express oneself thru the emotion and how the stone talks to us then stand >around bowing to every passing 'oriental' as though they had an inner >native perspective that was lost on us philistines. > > I would love to apply the patina by hand but my natural oils are in short >supply...just a thought.....the >application by natural oils....would that mean you would have to be greasy, >doity, smelly and sweaty >to get enough natural oils to patinate a suiseki? I have enough trouble >explaining to my wife about >the expense of a Bonsai Pot without her having to put up with musk laden >armpits. Did anyone lean >forward and smell the Rosenblum Rocks? > >Joe>>> hahaha In a follow up post by Craig I see that there may be >confusion about this, the oil acts as a lubricator rather than as a >'finish', it provides a little friction to the rubbing action. If you >prefer then use a tiny amount of a neutral oil such as vegetable oil. > > >Joe Davies > > ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 00:39:32 PST Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca From: "Craig Coussins" Reply-To: "Craig Coussins" To: Subject: Chris and Garry: Comments Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 08:34:59 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: OK Guys, I will desist from making observations if the comments from you are critical of me rather than input. Please read your input and try and keep it light and not personal. That is not wabi or sabi. If you use these Japanese words then use them in the meaning they are supposed to be used. On yourself. I will conclude my involvement regarding my recent observations with the following answers where they are reasonable. I did not FEEL ridiculous when I though that a senior member of the Japanese Suiseki organization said some things that we could take on board and reject or perhaps UNDERSTAND. The comments were for constructive discussion and were meant to bring a different perspective on other cultural understanding of our hobby. The term DAIZA refers to a stand or display table, NOT A PIECE OF WOOD CUT TO ENCOMPASS A SUISEKI BASE. I.E. A DAI. If you read the Acid part it clearly says that it is part of the Cleaning process and unless you collect in a dust or dirt free environment then cleaning is acceptable...as far as I am aware in most parts of the world. Japanese are nationalistic to an extreme and GENERALLY will accept their cultural preferences before any one else's....something like most Americans, Russians, Scots or BOSNIA'S! I hope that you understand that everyone is protective of their own SUPERIOR culture. Willie Benz has a small A5 Illustrated booklet that comes out three of four times a year and the 50DM covers the membership, Journals and possible post in Europe....maybe to USA etc. Ask him. Write to him. Perhaps if you commented on the constructive elements rather than the easy insulting elements you would find more pleasure from Suiseki...or even Bonsai Gary and Chris. This way is more peaceful and respectful to your friends. I can respond happily to anyone that responds in a pleasant way to me. BYE BYE Craig Coussins. and if you already have not been there, please visit my site at: http://www.btinternet.com/~craig.coussins/ or ask any major search engine for Craig Coussins and you wll find my Pages. ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 00:43:44 PST Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca From: "Craig Coussins" Reply-To: "Craig Coussins" To: Subject: Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 08:39:13 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: unsubscribe ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 01:38:15 PST Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca From: "Joe Davies" Reply-To: "Joe Davies" To: , "Craig Coussins" CC: "Craig Coussins" Subject: Re: Chris and Garry: Comments Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 08:59:38 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: Regarding Craig's posting below, I for one would be sorry if he left the group. He has experience and knowledge that benefit our modest assembly. As with any art form there are different perspectives and opinions and I hope we can work together to further the knowledge and popularity of the subject for the benefit of all. Joe ---------- > From: Craig Coussins > To: viewing_stones@Triumf.CA > Subject: Chris and Garry: Comments > Date: 11 October 1997 08:34 > > OK Guys, > I will desist from making observations if the comments from you are > critical of me rather than input. Please read your input and try and keep > it light and not personal. That is not wabi or sabi. If you use these > Japanese words then use them in the meaning they are supposed to be used. > On yourself. > > I will conclude my involvement regarding my recent observations with the > following answers where they are reasonable. > > I did not FEEL ridiculous when I though that a senior member of the > Japanese Suiseki organization said some things that we could take on board > and reject or perhaps UNDERSTAND. The comments were for constructive > discussion and were meant to bring a different perspective on other > cultural understanding of our hobby. > > The term DAIZA refers to a stand or display table, NOT A PIECE OF WOOD CUT > TO ENCOMPASS A SUISEKI BASE. I.E. A DAI. > > > If you read the Acid part it clearly says that it is part of the Cleaning > process and unless you collect in a dust or dirt free environment then > cleaning is acceptable...as far as I am aware in most parts of the world. > > Japanese are nationalistic to an extreme and GENERALLY will accept their > cultural preferences before any one else's....something like most > Americans, Russians, Scots or BOSNIA'S! I hope that you understand that > everyone is protective of their own SUPERIOR culture. > > Willie Benz has a small A5 Illustrated booklet that comes out three of four > times a year and the 50DM covers the membership, Journals and possible post > in Europe....maybe to USA etc. Ask him. Write to him. > > Perhaps if you commented on the constructive elements rather than the easy > insulting elements you would find more pleasure from Suiseki...or even > Bonsai Gary and Chris. This way is more peaceful and respectful to your > friends. I can respond happily to anyone that responds in a pleasant way to > me. > > BYE BYE > > Craig Coussins. > and if you already have not been there, please visit my site at: > http://www.btinternet.com/~craig.coussins/ > or ask any major search engine for Craig Coussins > and you wll find my Pages. ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 08:05:41 PST Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca From: "Garry Garcia" Reply-To: "Garry Garcia" To: "Joe Davies" , , "Craig Coussins" CC: "Craig Coussins" Subject: Re: Chris and Garry: Comments Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 10:05:45 -0500 Message-ID: <01bcd657$26948e20$5b5f47cc@ggarcia.vvm.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit My comments were not directed toward any one at all, sorry if Craig took it that way.....I am out, my site will be removed tonight. IT WAS JUST MY OPINION. -----Original Message----- From: Joe Davies To: viewing_stones@triumf.ca ; Craig Coussins Cc: Craig Coussins Date: Saturday, October 11, 1997 3:42 AM Subject: Re: Chris and Garry: Comments >Regarding Craig's posting below, I for one would be sorry if he left the >group. He has experience and knowledge that benefit our modest assembly. As >with any art form there are different perspectives and opinions and I hope >we can work together to further the knowledge and popularity of the subject >for the benefit of all. > >Joe > > >---------- >> From: Craig Coussins >> To: viewing_stones@Triumf.CA >> Subject: Chris and Garry: Comments >> Date: 11 October 1997 08:34 >> >> OK Guys, >> I will desist from making observations if the comments from you are >> critical of me rather than input. Please read your input and try and >keep >> it light and not personal. That is not wabi or sabi. If you use these >> Japanese words then use them in the meaning they are supposed to be used. >> On yourself. >> >> I will conclude my involvement regarding my recent observations with the >> following answers where they are reasonable. >> >> I did not FEEL ridiculous when I though that a senior member of the >> Japanese Suiseki organization said some things that we could take on >board >> and reject or perhaps UNDERSTAND. The comments were for constructive >> discussion and were meant to bring a different perspective on other >> cultural understanding of our hobby. >> >> The term DAIZA refers to a stand or display table, NOT A PIECE OF WOOD >CUT >> TO ENCOMPASS A SUISEKI BASE. I.E. A DAI. >> >> >> If you read the Acid part it clearly says that it is part of the Cleaning >> process and unless you collect in a dust or dirt free environment then >> cleaning is acceptable...as far as I am aware in most parts of the world. >> >> Japanese are nationalistic to an extreme and GENERALLY will accept their >> cultural preferences before any one else's....something like most >> Americans, Russians, Scots or BOSNIA'S! I hope that you understand that >> everyone is protective of their own SUPERIOR culture. >> >> Willie Benz has a small A5 Illustrated booklet that comes out three of >four >> times a year and the 50DM covers the membership, Journals and possible >post >> in Europe....maybe to USA etc. Ask him. Write to him. >> >> Perhaps if you commented on the constructive elements rather than the >easy >> insulting elements you would find more pleasure from Suiseki...or even >> Bonsai Gary and Chris. This way is more peaceful and respectful to your >> friends. I can respond happily to anyone that responds in a pleasant way >to >> me. >> >> BYE BYE >> >> Craig Coussins. >> and if you already have not been there, please visit my site at: >> http://www.btinternet.com/~craig.coussins/ >> or ask any major search engine for Craig Coussins >> and you wll find my Pages. > ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 08:15:22 PST Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca From: "Garry Garcia" Reply-To: "Garry Garcia" To: Subject: Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 10:15:33 -0500 Message-ID: <01bcd658$84e07560$5b5f47cc@ggarcia.vvm.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0015_01BCD62E.9C0A6D60" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0015_01BCD62E.9C0A6D60 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable unsubscribe ------=_NextPart_000_0015_01BCD62E.9C0A6D60 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
unsubscribe
------=_NextPart_000_0015_01BCD62E.9C0A6D60-- ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 08:17:24 PST Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 11:20:31 -0400 (EDT) From: Mysteries@aol.com Reply-To: Mysteries@aol.com Message-ID: <971011112030_1367081498@emout11.mail.aol.com> To: viewing_stones@triumf.ca Subject: Re: Why is everyone running away? There was a mild disagreement certainly in the world of flames it was hardly even a matchhead. Language is funny that way on the net...it picks up nuances that are often not intended. We need all the voices plus more....Can't we just go on from here without deserting the list? Randall ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 09:16:30 PST Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 09:19:38 -0700 (PDT) From: Lynn boyd Reply-To: Lynn boyd To: viewing_stones@triumf.ca Subject: OUR SORROW AND LOSS Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII My dear friends, For the want of a little understanding and little attempt to adjust the dialectic to one acceptable to all, you have deprived the rest of us of your company. Your two names are names mentioned to me by Chris, Joe Craig Hunt with such enthusiastic recognition at one time or another that I cannot believe I am seeing right! I beg you to reconsider and let us see a subscribe msg soon as proof that you are larger than the effect of a medium that at once gives us the broadest access to knowledge, and more importantly, people, than anything else in the history of mankind - even ART, but, also, does not let an individual's natural humility and vulnerability show . . sadly. We have just witnessed your human vulnerability. You cannot help but be hurt, but you have a responsibility to one another now to recognize that truth and consider the rest of us in your company who wish you not to be our loss, too! We all have such different roots. I may be ignorant of the nuances you can speak of on such specific terms, yet I have spent my life in the arts, professionally, educationally and as a life force. My outlook is trained to be a philosophical overlook that embraces all forms, all artistry, all the dialectic possibilities from one pole to the other pole of a discourse. You have not accepted this stretch of dialectic to exist if you take your leave. That hurts us all for the sake of your hurting within yourself because of a slight from someone whom you believe should have regarded you with more respect. Not any of you good men wish this to happen really. Please reverse your impulse and return. We do extend our hand to welcome you back, please. Lynn ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 11:33:56 PST Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca To: Joe.Davies@btinternet.com CC: viewing_stones@triumf.ca, Craig.Coussins@btinternet.com Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 10:12:37 +0000 Subject: Re: Chris and Garry: Comments Message-ID: <19971011.133541.12454.5.norbalt@juno.com> References: From: norbalt@juno.com Reply-To: norbalt@juno.com Joe, Right on. I hope he comes back. Each part is integral to the whole. God Bless and Keep You and Yours, Have a Great 1997, Regards from Pawnee America Tom La Bron Home E-Mail: norbalt@juno.com Office E-Mail: norbal@okway.okstate.edu ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- On Sat, 11 Oct 1997 08:59:38 +0100 "Joe Davies" writes: >Regarding Craig's posting below, I for one would be sorry if he left >the >group. He has experience and knowledge that benefit our modest >assembly. As >with any art form there are different perspectives and opinions and I >hope >we can work together to further the knowledge and popularity of the >subject >for the benefit of all. > >Joe ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 11:34:19 PST Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca To: Craig.Coussins@btinternet.com CC: viewing_stones@triumf.ca Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 10:08:55 +0000 Subject: Re: Chris and Garry: Comments Message-ID: <19971011.133541.12454.4.norbalt@juno.com> References: From: norbalt@juno.com Reply-To: norbalt@juno.com Craig, I am relatively new to the list and new to Suiseki. I would see it as a loss your leaving. I understand your position for I go through some of it on the Goldfish list that I am on. I just remember that opinions are like belly-buttons, we all have them, the only problem is that sometimes our opinions get wrapped around the facts and these then get obscured. It is the same thing with Bonsai and Goldfish, too. I am sorry that I don't have a good story to relate with this subject, because I only recently got interested in Suiseki after doing some correlated research on Bonsai and Ornamental Goldfish, so I have only this list and some books as a point of reference for this art. With Bonsai and Goldfish I have overseas experience. One story that I do have to relate is that it was your sight that drew me to Suiseki, when I was going through some Bonsai URL's, and saw your area on Suiseki and it was your links that pointed me to the list. I feel the list needs all the support and participation it can muster. In E-mail, as in life, it is sometimes easier to attack the individual than the idea, but just remember those belly-buttons, no one's is any better or important than the next, although it may be different. God Bless and Keep You and Yours, Have a Great 1997, Regards from Pawnee America Tom La Bron Home E-Mail: norbalt@juno.com Office E-Mail: norbal@okway.okstate.edu ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- On Sat, 11 Oct 1997 08:34:59 +0100 "Craig Coussins" writes: >OK Guys, >I will desist from making observations if the comments from you are >critical of me rather than input. Please read your input and try and >keep it light and not personal. That is not wabi or sabi. If you use these >Japanese words then use them in the meaning they are supposed to be >used. >On yourself. > >I will conclude my involvement regarding my recent observations with >the following answers where they are reasonable. > >I did not FEEL ridiculous when I though that a senior member of the >Japanese Suiseki organization said some things that we could take on >board and reject or perhaps UNDERSTAND. The comments were for constructive >discussion and were meant to bring a different perspective on other >cultural understanding of our hobby. > >The term DAIZA refers to a stand or display table, NOT A PIECE OF WOOD >CUT TO ENCOMPASS A SUISEKI BASE. I.E. A DAI. > >If you read the Acid part it clearly says that it is part of the >Cleaning process and unless you collect in a dust or dirt free environment then >cleaning is acceptable...as far as I am aware in most parts of the >world. > >Japanese are nationalistic to an extreme and GENERALLY will accept >their cultural preferences before any one else's....something like most >Americans, Russians, Scots or BOSNIA'S! I hope that you understand >that everyone is protective of their own SUPERIOR culture. > >Willie Benz has a small A5 Illustrated booklet that comes out three of >four times a year and the 50DM covers the membership, Journals and possible >post in Europe....maybe to USA etc. Ask him. Write to him. > >Perhaps if you commented on the constructive elements rather than the >easy insulting elements you would find more pleasure from Suiseki...or even >Bonsai Gary and Chris. This way is more peaceful and respectful to >your friends. I can respond happily to anyone that responds in a pleasant >way to me. > >BYE BYE > >Craig Coussins. >and if you already have not been there, please visit my site at: >http://www.btinternet.com/~craig.coussins/ >or ask any major search engine for Craig Coussins >and you wll find my Pages. > ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 12:14:13 PST Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: viewing_stones@triumf.ca From: Andy Miksys Reply-To: Andy Miksys Subject: Japanese Perspectives Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 15:17:07 -0400 Message-ID: <19170774938622@ica.net> If there is anyone left perhaps they could explain something to me. Craig wrote: >There are five main elements according to Matsuura. These are: >SHAPE >QUALITY >COLOUR >TEXTURE >AGE. What the hell does age have to do with it? A stone which is 200 million years old is more valued than a 60 million year old stone? I refuse to believe that what Matsuura was referring to was that age is determined by the quantity of residue left behind from years of hand rubbing. A rock, a stone, a pebble and a mountain from the human perspective is ageless. Isn't it? Thanks; Andy Miksys ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 12:14:37 PST Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable To: viewing_stones@triumf.ca From: Andy Miksys Reply-To: Andy Miksys Subject: Response to Saw! Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 15:17:14 -0400 Message-ID: <19171490938623@ica.net> With the last posting I've just realized that my previous response to Peter Aradi's question went directly to Peter and not to Peter and the group as intended. So here goes. At 09:38 PM 25/09/97 -0500, you wrote: >Folks! > >I have several stones which would look much better >if I could cut the bottom flat. I can't find locally >any saws for less than $800 as we have a single rock >shop in town. >I would appreciate any suggestion or idea how can I >cut my stones.Some are only an 1" in diameter, some=20 >are up to 16". >All suggestions are appreciated in advance. > >Thanks. > >Peter Aradi >Tulsa, OK Peter; Here is my method of cutting stones on the cheap. But please be warned - this is trickier than it may seem and your fingers will be in grave danger. I=92ve successfully cut a variety of stones in the sizes described. The basic tool is a standard 4-1/2" disc grinder with a masonry abrasive blade. Fundamentally you hold (or brace) the rock in one hand and the disc grinder in the other. Naturally you will be working outdoors as this procedure is dusty. Safety glasses and a dust mask are a must. You will probably find that your hands will give out fairly soon and that cutting a straight line by eye isn=92t easy. To alleviate this situation= I=92ve done the following: Use a =91Johnny Workbench=92 and secure (or at the very least brace) the= rock with rags, or sponges and tape. Clay or plastiscene may also help to secure or brace the rock to the bench. Protection of the rock texture is the name of the game here. Dip the rock in water to determine the cut line in two dimensions, then using tape, demarcate the cut line. I=92ve lost the line (in the dust) when marking it out with a felt pen. A stone which has a cut-plane with a maximum dimension of about 3-1/2" can be straight edge cut around. The determining factor is the reach of the 4-1/2" blade. The stone will have to be rotated into position. The maximum cutting dimension therefore is twice the reach of the blade. But take note because the blade is constantly wearing down. For stones with cut-plane maximum dimension greater than about 3-1/2" a different technique must be applied. The rock must be ground down, a 3/8" layer at a time. Again the rock is set up and the cut line demarcated. Using the edge of the blade (at 90 degrees to the rock) cut a series of parallel lines about =BE" apart and about 3/8" deep. Cut a second set of parallel= lines perpendicular to the first. Then using the edge of the disc grinder blade at about a 45 degree angle to the cut-plane (the way the tool is meant to be used) grind off each square. Repeat removing successive layers until you are done. Obviously different rock will have different properties. Spaulding is a problem with some rocks such as shale and slate. This is another reason why I use a (fiberglass) tape to demarcate the cut-line. I believe it helps hold the rock together. Limestone is a particularly pleasant rock to cut (but it smells of burnt bone ie. death). Granite is nice too. Shale is a bitch. To give you an idea. Say I wanted to cut a large grapefruit sized rock in half. Using the second method described above, in granite it would take me about 3 hours and two blades at say $4.50 each to complete the task. In limestone I=92d be done in about an hour and will have used one blade. There is a tendency to cut the stone so that the edges are slightly rounded (ie. the finished stone is a bit like a rocking horse). You will just have to be careful when cutting. Take your time and please watch your hands and fingers! I hope this helps. Good luck. ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 12:32:52 PST Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 21:36:36 +0200 Message-ID: <199710111936.VAA07034@inrete.it> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: viewing_stones@triumf.ca From: marco favero Reply-To: marco favero Subject: Earthquake to Viewing_Stones?(was Re: Chris and Garry: Comments) CC: craig.coussins@btinternet.com, ggarcia@vvm.com. Hello to all folks and particularly to Craig and Garry , i for one am very sorry to see how discussions about suiseki taken this sad way of "there is a general stampede" or "to elope":-);i would like relax those "apocalyptical"(for group) decisions of Craig and Garry,beging all two to reconsider their impulsive choice. this group is born by the great help of Craig Hunt for to write and read about our passion Suiseki,so please in every list or newsgroup there are many different opinions,we can agree or disagree and if we want grow our knowledges,we can and must listen all perspectives and approachs;the best way for to enlarge our sensitiveness and taste is to be tolerant and to answer with good arguments to statements which we don't share. Who,as Craig and Garry, has many important knowledges on Suiseki must feel the duty of to share with us all their thoughts,if they think that wabi and sabi,shibui and yugen have some meaning. i want quote what Arishige Matsuura said some time ago: "a good suiseki is able to show in front of your eyes,inside few inches, the man,the whole world and the Cosmos". it isn't important across which way we can reach this vision,on condition that we attain our ends. i think all the people in this group wants and whishes that you two take up your contribution to list,even why if all the people think the same things, which taste there is in debate?:-) naturally respecting any opinion and suggestion. thanks for your attention. regards marco favero@inrete.it ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 12:49:59 PST Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 21:54:04 +0200 Message-ID: <199710111954.VAA07467@inrete.it> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: viewing_stones@triumf.ca From: marco favero Reply-To: marco favero Subject: Re: Japanese Perspectives At 15.17 11/10/97 -0400, you wrote: >If there is anyone left perhaps they could explain something to me. > >Craig wrote: > >>There are five main elements according to Matsuura. These are: >>SHAPE >>QUALITY >>COLOUR >>TEXTURE >>AGE. > >What the hell does age have to do with it? > >A stone which is 200 million years old is more valued than a 60 million year >old stone? > >I refuse to believe that what Matsuura was referring to was that age is >determined by the quantity of residue left behind from years of hand rubbing. > >A rock, a stone, a pebble and a mountain from the human perspective is >ageless. Isn't it? > >Thanks; > >Andy Miksys Andy, Age in this case starts when stone is collected and it is called Shinseki (new stone);only after from 7 to 20 yrs it becomes a Suiseki and a Meiseki if its qualities are sufficient;if Meiseki is sold to VIP,then it can become a Yuraiseki. hope this helps. marco favero@inrete.it ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 14:07:56 PST Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca From: "Garry Garcia" Reply-To: "Garry Garcia" To: Subject: Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 16:08:01 -0500 Message-ID: <01bcd689$c1fbcea0$6b9083d0@ggarcia.vvm.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_002E_01BCD65F.D925C6A0" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_002E_01BCD65F.D925C6A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subscribe ------=_NextPart_000_002E_01BCD65F.D925C6A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
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------=_NextPart_000_002E_01BCD65F.D925C6A0-- ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 14:15:46 PST Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca From: "Garry Garcia" Reply-To: "Garry Garcia" To: Subject: Fw: Garry Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 16:15:54 -0500 Message-ID: <01bcd68a$dc3f5420$6b9083d0@ggarcia.vvm.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0054_01BCD660.F3694C20" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0054_01BCD660.F3694C20 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I thank everyone for their understanding, and kind words. Craig and I = have written eachother about this unfortunate mis understanding, and = both agree to return. =20 I in turn would like to apologize to the group for such an impulsive, = act. And would like to apologize to Craig for what I feel was a un = coherced attack on his knowledge, and views. =20 =20 I have a great deal of respect for Craig, as I do the rest of the group, = all of the postings over the last week or so were really excellent, and = had many very good points. =20 =20 After I finish this note to the group, I am putting my site back on the = www. =20 Once again, I apologize to the whole group. =20 Garry=20 =20 =20 ------=_NextPart_000_0054_01BCD660.F3694C20 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

 
I thank everyone for their = understanding, and=20 kind words.  Craig and I have written eachother about this = unfortunate mis=20 understanding, and both agree to return.
 
I in turn would like to apologize to = the group=20 for such an impulsive, act.  And would like to apologize to Craig = for what=20 I feel was a un coherced attack on his knowledge, and views.  =
 
I have a great deal of respect for = Craig, as I=20 do the rest of the group, all of the postings over the last week or so = were=20 really excellent, and had many very good points. 
 
After I finish this note to the group, I am putting = my site=20 back on the www.
 
Once again, I apologize to the whole = group.
 
Garry
 
 
------=_NextPart_000_0054_01BCD660.F3694C20-- ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 14:53:44 PST Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 14:56:53 -0700 (PDT) From: Lynn boyd Reply-To: Lynn boyd To: viewing_stones@triumf.ca Subject: WELCOME RETURN Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Your return is great, Garry! And look forward to Craig's, too! I am sure sometime we will "dump the table over again" and I hope it will be with equally thoughtful members. Lynn ------------ On Sat, 11 Oct 1997, Garry Garcia wrote: > > I thank everyone for their understanding, and kind words. Craig and I = > have written eachother about this unfortunate mis understanding, and = > both agree to return. > =20 > I in turn would like to apologize to the group for such an impulsive, = > act. And would like to apologize to Craig for what I feel was a un = > coherced attack on his knowledge, and views. =20 > =20 > I have a great deal of respect for Craig, as I do the rest of the group, = > all of the postings over the last week or so were really excellent, and = > had many very good points. =20 > =20 > After I finish this note to the group, I am putting my site back on the = > www. > =20 > Once again, I apologize to the whole group. > =20 > Garry ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 15:07:27 PST Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca From: "Joe Davies" Reply-To: "Joe Davies" To: "Lynn boyd" , Subject: Re: OUR SORROW AND LOSS Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 23:05:03 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: I echo Lynn's words entirely, and want to thank her for vocalising the emotion that I am sure many of us were feeling but lacked the elouqence to do those thoughts justice. ..... and here's a little tale A scorpion arrives at the side of a river and wants to cross it, but the river is deep and fast flowing and scorpion cannot swim. Sitting on the river bank there is a frog, and the scorpion asks the frog "Mr Frog, will you carry me across the river on your back, as I cannot swim and need to cross the river". The frog thinks a while and replies "But you are a scorpion, and you will sting me". The scorpion replies "But if I stung you we would both perish as I would drown, so why would I sting you?" The frog considers this and satisfied it is safe, embarks across the river with the scorpion on his back. Half way across the frog feels a terrible sensation in his back as the scorpion thrusts its sting deeply into him. The frog is dying, his last words are "WHY? we will both die now", the scorpion replies... "I couldnt help it, its in my nature". Sometime or other, we are all a little guilty of being the scorpion. Joe ---------- > From: Lynn boyd > To: viewing_stones@triumf.ca > Subject: OUR SORROW AND LOSS > Date: 11 October 1997 17:19 > > > My dear friends, > For the want of a little understanding and little attempt > to adjust the dialectic to one acceptable to all, you > have deprived the rest of us of your company. > Your two names are names mentioned to me by Chris, Joe > Craig Hunt with such enthusiastic recognition at one > time or another that I cannot believe I am seeing right! > > I beg you to reconsider and let us see a subscribe msg > soon as proof that you are larger than the effect of a medium > that at once gives us the broadest access to knowledge, and > more importantly, people, than anything else in the history > of mankind - even ART, but, also, does not let an individual's > natural humility and vulnerability show . . sadly. > > We have just witnessed your human vulnerability. You cannot > help but be hurt, but you have a responsibility to one another > now to recognize that truth and consider the rest of us in > your company who wish you not to be our loss, too! > > We all have such different roots. I may be ignorant of the > nuances you can speak of on such specific terms, yet I have > spent my life in the arts, professionally, educationally and > as a life force. My outlook is trained to be a philosophical > overlook that embraces all forms, all artistry, all the dialectic > possibilities from one pole to the other pole of a discourse. > > You have not accepted this stretch of dialectic to exist > if you take your leave. That hurts us all for the sake of > your hurting within yourself because of a slight from someone > whom you believe should have regarded you with more respect. > Not any of you good men wish this to happen really. > Please reverse your impulse and return. > We do extend our hand to welcome you back, please. > > Lynn > ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 22:33:46 PST Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca From: "Garry Garcia" Reply-To: "Garry Garcia" To: "Joe Davies" , "Lynn boyd" , Subject: Re: OUR SORROW AND LOSS Date: Sun, 12 Oct 1997 00:33:50 -0500 Message-ID: <01bcd6d0$6b505660$865f47cc@ggarcia.vvm.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Great story Joe. So correct. -----Original Message----- From: Joe Davies To: Lynn boyd ; viewing_stones@triumf.ca Date: Saturday, October 11, 1997 5:11 PM Subject: Re: OUR SORROW AND LOSS >I echo Lynn's words entirely, and want to thank her for vocalising the >emotion that I am sure many of us were feeling but lacked the elouqence to >do those thoughts justice. > >..... and here's a little tale > >A scorpion arrives at the side of a river and wants to cross it, but the >river is deep and fast flowing and scorpion cannot swim. Sitting on the >river bank there is a frog, and the scorpion asks the frog "Mr Frog, will >you carry me across the river on your back, as I cannot swim and need to >cross the river". >The frog thinks a while and replies "But you are a scorpion, and you will >sting me". The scorpion replies "But if I stung you we would both perish as >I would drown, so why would I sting you?" >The frog considers this and satisfied it is safe, embarks across the river >with the scorpion on his back. Half way across the frog feels a terrible >sensation in his back as the scorpion thrusts its sting deeply into him. >The frog is dying, his last words are "WHY? we will both die now", the >scorpion replies... "I couldnt help it, its in my nature". > >Sometime or other, we are all a little guilty of being the scorpion. > >Joe > >---------- >> From: Lynn boyd >> To: viewing_stones@triumf.ca >> Subject: OUR SORROW AND LOSS >> Date: 11 October 1997 17:19 >> >> >> My dear friends, >> For the want of a little understanding and little attempt >> to adjust the dialectic to one acceptable to all, you >> have deprived the rest of us of your company. >> Your two names are names mentioned to me by Chris, Joe >> Craig Hunt with such enthusiastic recognition at one >> time or another that I cannot believe I am seeing right! >> >> I beg you to reconsider and let us see a subscribe msg >> soon as proof that you are larger than the effect of a medium >> that at once gives us the broadest access to knowledge, and >> more importantly, people, than anything else in the history >> of mankind - even ART, but, also, does not let an individual's >> natural humility and vulnerability show . . sadly. >> >> We have just witnessed your human vulnerability. You cannot >> help but be hurt, but you have a responsibility to one another >> now to recognize that truth and consider the rest of us in >> your company who wish you not to be our loss, too! >> >> We all have such different roots. I may be ignorant of the >> nuances you can speak of on such specific terms, yet I have >> spent my life in the arts, professionally, educationally and >> as a life force. My outlook is trained to be a philosophical >> overlook that embraces all forms, all artistry, all the dialectic >> possibilities from one pole to the other pole of a discourse. >> >> You have not accepted this stretch of dialectic to exist >> if you take your leave. That hurts us all for the sake of >> your hurting within yourself because of a slight from someone >> whom you believe should have regarded you with more respect. >> Not any of you good men wish this to happen really. >> Please reverse your impulse and return. >> We do extend our hand to welcome you back, please. >> >> Lynn >> > ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sun, 12 Oct 1997 04:24:23 PST Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca Date: Sun, 12 Oct 1997 13:28:34 +0200 Message-ID: <199710121128.NAA00185@inrete.it> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: viewing_stones@triumf.ca From: marco favero Reply-To: marco favero Subject: Re: Natural or Unnatural- Suiseki presentation. At 20.52 10/10/97 -0500,Garry Garcia(ggarcia@vvm.com), you wrote: >Patina....that should be natural....body oil is good for briar pipes, but >stones, I don't think so, and Acid!!!! come on enough is enough, either it >is a naturally good stone or it is not. Garry, i taken a look at your web site,good work and good pictures,my best compliments; you state that your stones are collected in rivers,stream,mountains,deserts etc. around the world and i can understand your thoughts;but not all stones sites are as you know;in Ligurian Alpes for example all stones are under ground and furthermore covered from 3 to 6 cm of clay;when you find a stone you cannot say if it is a good or a bad specimen,you must before clean it for to show its own characteristic and in much cases be very careful for not break every small brittle peaks:then in these cases when you fear to damage your stone,it is necessary to use Acid for to decover all stone structure and also for to protect your lungs' health since protective mask isn't enough for dust, and believe me there is so much dust with all drills in Italian stones.this operation allows to take away a great part of clay and you can work the rest with safety of both,you and stone. for patina you can agree or disagree,this problem is yours;surely if Japanese suiseki lovers give us their experience of many and many years of these practices,you must consider yourself free of to use them or not,nobody binds you to respect them. all that said above it was just for knowledge and information. know rules and after do what your mind says to do. friendly regards and very happy to have you once again with us. marco favero@inrete.it ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sun, 12 Oct 1997 05:29:46 PST Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca From: "Craig Coussins" Reply-To: "Craig Coussins" To: Subject: Hello y'all Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 22:34:05 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: I agree with the sentiments of Marco. If the discussions are helpful then fine. The stone is the thing not the personality. Personal comments could therefor go directly to the person and not enter group discussions. I apologize to the readers for causing irritation to them and I am happy to return as I hope Garry, my friend, will also. At 50 years of age I think its about time I stopped reacting to perception anyway! Yours Aye and with very best wishes Craig Coussins. and if you already have not been there, please visit my site at: http://www.btinternet.com/~craig.coussins/ or ask any major search engine for Craig Coussins and you wll find my Pages. ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sun, 12 Oct 1997 07:12:32 PST Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: viewing_stones@triumf.ca From: Andy Miksys Reply-To: Andy Miksys Subject: The Age Thing Date: Sun, 12 Oct 1997 10:15:21 -0400 Message-ID: <14152196149468@ica.net> Marco replied: >Age in this case starts when stone is collected and it is called Shinseki >(new stone);only after from 7 to 20 yrs it becomes a Suiseki and a >Meiseki if its qualities are sufficient;if Meiseki is sold to VIP,then it >can become a Yuraiseki. >hope this helps. To my original query: (quoting Craig) >>>There are five main elements according to Matsuura. These are: >>>SHAPE >>>QUALITY >>>COLOUR >>>TEXTURE >>>AGE. >>What the hell does age have to do with it? Thanks Marco. Age then, is Japanese code for pedigree. The 'aesthetic' quality of the stone in enhanced (or undermined) by the pedigree (or lack thereof) of the stone. Let me see if I understand this. Mr.X collects a stone in 1923 and displays it. His son Mr.X1 inherits the stone and sells it to Mr.Y who later sells it to (stupid but rich ) Mr.Z for a bag of money. The fact that the stone is and always will be a dog-pooh-maki doesn't enter into the discussion. The stone's market value and pedigree have a direct bearing on it's aesthetic value. It is of great(er) aesthetic value because Mr.X,X1,Y & stupid but rich Mr.Z say it is. (I think I've just gained a new understanding of the concept of ancestor worship.) Further, if I get this 'age/pedigree' concept right, the aesthetic value (in Japanese terms) of a stone is greater if, displayed next to it, is a letter from the President of the Japanese Suiseki Society stating that it's a nice stone. I understand market value increasing - but aesthetic quality being modified by pedigree is nonsense. This has to be one of the stupidest things I've heard in a long time. And it's so typically Japanese. Thanks Marco for sharing this. ********** This internet forum, by it's very nature, has as its central discussion the dissemination of suiseki knowledge and appreciation into the west. I'm in Canada, Craig is in Scotland, Joe Davies somewhere in the UK, Marco in Italy, Chris is in Richmond VA, Lynn's on the left coast and so forth - we cannot help but view this art through our own personal, culturally modified, glasses. Several of us have studied suiseki, scholars stones and rockery from within the original cultural foundations of Japanese and Chinese thought and history. And some are more accomplished at these studies than others. This is a good thing. It is our cultural diversity and breadth of knowledge which will make this forum interesting and useful. I've just learned, thanks to Marco, that the original Japanese suiseki aesthetic consideration includes a pedigree. From this Canadian's perspective - it just doesn't fly. Slowly, bit by bit, idea by idea, we will reinvent suiseki on our own terms. Personally I don't believe that to appreciate Japanese food one has to sit on the floor and cram their legs under a little table. Similarly we will take from the oriental suiseki/scholar stone conventions only those ideas that make sense to us, in our own context, and discard everything else. All ideas are up for grabs. There is no right or wrong. And for the record - the carved wooden base in which the stone sits is called 'a wooden base'. I don't give a rat's ass what they call it in Japan. Thanks; Andy Miksys ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sun, 12 Oct 1997 07:42:24 PST Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca Date: Sun, 12 Oct 1997 10:45:34 -0400 (EDT) From: Mysteries@aol.com Reply-To: Mysteries@aol.com Message-ID: <971012104534_1418914223@emout03.mail.aol.com> To: viewing_stones@triumf.ca Subject: Re: The Age Thing You see, if we can take letters like the last, glean a little bit of intelligence from them and let the mode in which the intelligence is offered just go by (racial, social, intellectual crudities) we can keep the forum open. That is the high and low of public forums. But I mean, man, I am not saying there is no effort in being tolerant involved... (evil grin) Randall ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sun, 12 Oct 1997 08:23:19 PST Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca Message-ID: <3440ECE3.123558E5@ionet.net> Date: Sun, 12 Oct 1997 10:29:39 -0500 From: Peter Aradi Reply-To: paradi@ionet.net MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Andy Miksys CC: viewing_stones@triumf.ca Subject: Re: The Age Thing References: <14152196149468@ica.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Andy Miksys wrote: > > SNIP > Age then, is Japanese code for pedigree. The 'aesthetic' quality of the > stone in enhanced (or undermined) by the pedigree (or lack thereof) of the > stone. > > Let me see if I understand this. Mr.X collects a stone in 1923 and displays > it. His son Mr.X1 inherits the stone and sells it to Mr.Y who later sells it > to (stupid but rich ) Mr.Z for a bag of money. The fact that the stone is > and always will be a dog-pooh-maki doesn't enter into the discussion. The > stone's market value and pedigree have a direct bearing on it's aesthetic > value. It is of great(er) aesthetic value because Mr.X,X1,Y & stupid but > rich Mr.Z say it is. (I think I've just gained a new understanding of the > concept of ancestor worship.) > > Further, if I get this 'age/pedigree' concept right, the aesthetic value (in > Japanese terms) of a stone is greater if, displayed next to it, is a letter > from the President of the Japanese Suiseki Society stating that it's a nice > stone. > > I understand market value increasing - but aesthetic quality being modified > by pedigree is nonsense. This has to be one of the stupidest things I've > heard in a long time. > > And it's so typically Japanese. > Andy: You summed up art marketing very well. You are right on the money. The pedigree or owner's history is called 'provenance" in art. Except one small detail! It is not only a Japanese thing, it is universal in the art collecting world! Look into any major auction catalog and you will find that objects owned by historical persons and celebrities are always bring higher prices. It is also true in our popular culture. Two recent examples are auctions of Princess Diane's dresses and Muhamad Ali's memorablia. Arguably what we find in suiseki is "connoisseurship," in other words informed, trained and discriminating taste. We don not "create" the stone, we "discover it." Some, perhaps the majority of us, are uncertain in our taste, thus it is assuring to know that a given stone was previously selected by a recognized authority. Wealthy collectors often employ experts to help them select collectable art objects. OTOH you can ignore provenance like I do, - I can't afford "name stones" - and just pick up what I like. Meanwhile, by reading, looking at pictures, and participating in forums, such as this NG, I hope to develop my own connoisseurship! Cheers. Peter Aradi Tulsa, OK ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sun, 12 Oct 1997 08:43:03 PST Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19971012104514.007aae20@mailhost.iAmerica.net> Date: Sun, 12 Oct 1997 10:45:14 -0500 To: viewing_stones@triumf.ca From: Glen Miller Reply-To: Glen Miller Subject: Pedigree MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hi Everyone, Hi to you too Andy, in reply from a fellow American, I am understanding of you feelings. We as Americans carry the same Pedigree over into, for example: Dogs. A dog is still a dog even if his great grandfather won every dog show ever entered. But they are sold on that heritage. This is some how supposed to make the current dog more valuable. Obviously this is a real and simple ploy to ask more money for the dog, when it comes right down to it. After all a rock is still a rock until we attach some sentimental value to it. Do you remember the pet rock craze here in the states? Great marketing scheme:-) Now all my pet rocks have evolved into Suiseki which now increases their value tremendously;-) Glen ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sun, 12 Oct 1997 08:44:06 PST Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca Date: Sun, 12 Oct 1997 08:47:17 -0700 (PDT) From: Lynn boyd Reply-To: Lynn boyd To: viewing_stones@triumf.ca Subject: Re: The Age Thing Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII RE: ANDY MIKSYS POST: THE AGE THING O-o-oh! Andy! You have me reacting here!! (Heard that before, haven't you? :) Those are rather harsh words of put-down for viewpoints that go much deeper than the surface you are scratching at. Look for a metaphorical meaning, look for a ritual that has some significance, look for a cultural depth that escapes you right now. Sometimes it requires research. Lasting conventions and rituals started for a reason that isn't always quickly apparent - slow down a bit - use a little heart with these things, huh? Your language makes it understood you take a viewpoint that some things call for ridicule. Now, Andy, what do want? Do you want to be agreed with ? or do you want to enlighten us?, or just to make your feelings known,? because your language also contains feelings. Lynn ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sun, 12 Oct 1997 09:42:11 PST Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca Date: Sun, 12 Oct 1997 09:45:22 -0700 (PDT) From: Lynn boyd Reply-To: Lynn boyd To: viewing_stones@triumf.ca Subject: RE: THE AGE THING Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Peter: Your reminder of the power and purpose of connoisseurship is timely . . . for sure. Wouldn't surprise me if it existed well back into the Scholars' Stones age, and can't help but wonder how it may have brought about some rationalizing philosophical concepts that have come down to us through the ages. Nevertheless, I think you may be saying, also, that it has its place, serves as a guide, supplies something around which we can gather our ayes or nays about an art while we search out our own. Really a good point you made. Darn! Guess I have to thank Andy for stirring it up! Lynn ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sun, 12 Oct 1997 10:10:56 PST Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca Date: Sun, 12 Oct 1997 19:14:58 +0200 Message-ID: <199710121714.TAA09107@inrete.it> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: viewing_stones@triumf.ca From: marco favero Reply-To: marco favero Subject: Re: The Age Thing At 10.15 12/10/97 -0400 Andy Miksys,you wrote: ******************************************************************************** >Marco replied: > >>Age in this case starts when stone is collected and it is called Shinseki >>(new stone);only after from 7 to 20 yrs it becomes a Suiseki and a >>Meiseki if its qualities are sufficient;if Meiseki is sold to VIP,then it >>can become a Yuraiseki. >>hope this helps. >Thanks Marco. >Age then, is Japanese code for pedigree. The 'aesthetic' quality of the >stone in enhanced (or undermined) by the pedigree (or lack thereof) of the >stone. ******************************************************************************** Andy, please,not only Age but Age and other elements quoted before by Craig. what i said about names' changings,it is just a classification,and Japanese give a name for each different situation;it seems to me that you search only to reproach any eastern approach to stones;then please,explain me which is your approach to stones and maybe we can speak the same tongue:-). suiseki is art's work for Japanese,the best stones are family's jewels which are handed on from father to son and the relationship between members of family and stones are visceral. you cannot reduce this close relationship to only business relations,why,making so,you talk over as a western people and you will never understand the meaning of Suiseki's way,suppose that you will. i repeat again,you are blinded to believe or apply no one suiseki's rule, you are free to do what hell you want;if you whish to understand Japanese sensitiveness all the people here,i think,will help you,if on the contrary you want criticize and distort each statement,i'm asking what you search here. >Let me see if I understand this. Mr.X collects a stone in 1923 and displays >it. His son Mr.X1 inherits the stone and sells it to Mr.Y who later sells it >to (stupid but rich ) Mr.Z for a bag of money. The fact that the stone is >and always will be a dog-pooh-maki doesn't enter into the discussion. The >stone's market value and pedigree have a direct bearing on it's aesthetic >value. It is of great(er) aesthetic value because Mr.X,X1,Y & stupid but >rich Mr.Z say it is. (I think I've just gained a new understanding of the >concept of ancestor worship.) answer is above,but here particularly i want add some comment to your argument: Japanese school is the most difficult and hardest in all the world,and all schoolboys work very hard for to complete their instruction;and only the best students reach the summit;now all these men contributed to develop their country as we all seen and see;on the other hand,also after the last world wear, Japan has been always in hand of ancient japanese families. that said,i don't think that those rich families who survived to wear had in their bosom some stupid man as you say,i think exactly the contrary. and your last statement about a new understanding of the concept of ancestor worship isn't shared by me,on the contrary i think you are misinterpreted my words. **************************************************************************** ********** >Further, if I get this 'age/pedigree' concept right, the aesthetic value (in >Japanese terms) of a stone is greater if, displayed next to it, is a letter >from the President of the Japanese Suiseki Society stating that it's a nice >stone. totally false,you draw at your own conclusions which nobody has done. >I understand market value increasing - but aesthetic quality being modified >by pedigree is nonsense. This has to be one of the stupidest things I've >heard in a long time. >And it's so typically Japanese. Look above,and listen,Andy,before to judge a people,search at least to understand him,why,reading your wrong deductions,that same people can think the exact things on you. >Thanks Marco for sharing this. Please,but i must say that none so deaf as those that won't hear. **************************************************************************** ********** > >This internet forum, by it's very nature, has as its central discussion the >dissemination of suiseki knowledge and appreciation into the west. > >I'm in Canada, Craig is in Scotland, Joe Davies somewhere in the UK, Marco >in Italy, Chris is in Richmond VA, Lynn's on the left coast and so forth - >we cannot help but view this art through our own personal, culturally >modified, glasses. Several of us have studied suiseki, scholars stones and >rockery from within the original cultural foundations of Japanese and >Chinese thought and history. And some are more accomplished at these studies >than others. This is a good thing. It is our cultural diversity and breadth >of knowledge which will make this forum interesting and useful. > >I've just learned, thanks to Marco, that the original Japanese suiseki >aesthetic consideration includes a pedigree. From this Canadian's >perspective - it just doesn't fly. please,leave out of your conclusions which arn't conform to my thoughts.what you state above about our own different glasses can be shared. >Slowly, bit by bit, idea by idea, we will reinvent suiseki on our own terms. >Personally I don't believe that to appreciate Japanese food one has to sit >on the floor and cram their legs under a little table. Similarly we will >take from the oriental suiseki/scholar stone conventions only those ideas >that make sense to us, in our own context, and discard everything else. > >All ideas are up for grabs. There is no right or wrong. then,please,i repeat my question:tell us from high of your "Chair" which are your deep thoughts and we,maybe yes maybe not, will listen your great solutions. >And for the record - the carved wooden base in which the stone sits is >called 'a wooden base'. I don't give a rat's ass what they call it in Japan. and this is your whorty and pleasant speech-end,thank you so much,Teacher, we listened loud and clear your words;history will judge your western philosophy. still one thing,please,i hope you will spare us the same speechs about rules as in bonsai forum some time ago,i for one i will be very grateful to you. regards marco favero@inrete.it ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sun, 12 Oct 1997 10:43:53 PST Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca Message-ID: <34410D87.EBEE9A1E@surfsouth.com> Date: Sun, 12 Oct 1997 13:48:56 -0400 From: Bill Sikes Reply-To: Bill Sikes MIME-Version: 1.0 To: viewing_stones@triumf.ca Subject: Re: Connoisseurship: Real or Imagined? References: <344109C9.68636F86@surfsouth.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bill Sikes wrote: > Hello, Lynn, Peter, Chris, Joe, Carig, Garry, et al! > > I have been lurking in the shadows, listening to the viewing stone > conversations, and enjoying it all (except the little tiff that has > now > hopefully been mended). While I am not at all accomplished in the Art > > (Science) of Viewing Stones, I, like the rest of the ignorant masses, > certainly know what I like, and respond positively to those things > which > appeal to me. > > While Art, like Beauty, is in the eye (cognizance) of the beholder, to > > find Beauty in Nature is a continual occurrence. To find True Art is > rare. > > There has always been and always will be a "hip" or in-crowd, no > matter > what the pursuit. Conversely, there is always a group whose tastes > are > "out." > > The group that is "in", regardless of the acuity or level of > discernment > of their taste, invariably sets the standards and goals to which the > others must aspire in order to have their accomplishments recognized. > > Those individuals whom aspire to taste are often (usually) > overshadowed > by those who are perceived to have taste, whether this perceived > possession of taste is real or imagined. > > True connoisseurs gather artistic selections over an extended period > of > time, with their acquisitions gaining depth of quality with each > passing > accomplishment; they do not let the conventions of the in-crowd > influence their acquisitions, except where they have an opportunity to > > separate a fool from his money. > > The true connoisseur has a depth of knowledge of his art that > transcends > the abilities of the hipster in-crowd to understand, n'est-ce pas? > -- > Bill Sikes mailto:bjra@surfsouth.com > Member, South Georgia Bonsai Club, USA USDA Zone 8 > > The Bonsai Shop & Nursery "Extraordinary by Nature" > 2061 East Oleander Avenue > Coolidge, GA 31738 1-912-346-3345 ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sun, 12 Oct 1997 10:49:32 PST Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19971012125112.007a61b0@mailhost.iAmerica.net> Date: Sun, 12 Oct 1997 12:51:12 -0500 To: viewing_stones@triumf.ca From: Glen Miller Reply-To: Glen Miller Subject: Understanding MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" What Marco says is so true. Once you understand the Japanese approach to Suiseki and it's spiritual connotation. You from then on can adapt these rules to your own philosophy. Understanding is most important in this case. From this foundation only can you grow. Being considered a westerner and from such a young country with little heritage to draw on, it is wise to develop the understanding. Only in this way can other's perceive your approach. Being American, I sometimes charge in saying "What the hell" today is what I live for and I don't care about the years of philosophy that contributed even to my own young culture. On this, have I developed my own understand, of my Pet Rocks:-) Glen Miller Tulsa,Okla. USA ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sun, 12 Oct 1997 10:53:32 PST Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca From: "Joe Davies" Reply-To: "Joe Davies" To: "Andy Miksys" , Subject: Re: The Age Thing Date: Sun, 12 Oct 1997 18:51:10 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: > I'm in Canada, Craig is in Scotland, Joe Davies somewhere in the UK I live in England, a country. Craig lives in Scotland, also a country. Together with another little country called Wales they constitute the United Kingdom. The English are all sohisticated, intelligent and peace-loving. The Scots are Highlanders that wear kilts, are war-like and proud, the Welsh are something else. Thus the English are like the Federation, the Scots the Klingons and the Welsh the Tribbles. I have a stone that the 2 prominent collectors in the England (myself and Dave Sampson) are selling to each other on a monthly basis. Every month it changes hands. In two years time it will have a bucket load of pedigree having been owned (and loved) by 24 of the most prominent collectors outside Japan. It will now be worth a King's ransom. I shall sell it to a gullible 'art' collector and retire in the lap of luxury. Easy peasy. Joe ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sun, 12 Oct 1997 12:52:15 PST Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca From: "Craig Coussins" Reply-To: "Craig Coussins" To: Subject: The stone that is called Suiseki Date: Sun, 12 Oct 1997 20:47:34 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: While the comments are a little facetious when it comes to both another culture and our own love and pleasure from the collecting or understanding of Suiseki, it should be, surely, remembered that this is but a stone. We put our own viewpoint on the stone we collect and while some are arguing the rights and wrongs of rare or aged suiseki, it is still a stone. No one is forcing anyone to buy a stone as the finding is so much more pleasurable. I have searched for many years and only recently found the stone that I like. I found this on the shore of a lake high up in the mountains of Italy. Covered with clay the shape was pleasant and interesting. The clay was crumbly but had taken on a nice image that reminded me of my favorite spot on earth, The Grand Canyon. I had given a similar stone to Joe Davies a couple of years ago and really like what he had done with it and that inspired me to 'have a go'. I dipped the stone in the acid bath or PathClear a solution to clean, well, paths actually, and took it out after 10 minutes. I cleaned away the clay and the dark limestone crept through. It was unbelievable. The centre became a volcano and the valleys surrounding the main crater were flowing and soaring into the distance. The secondary hills swept down to the end of the stone and rivers tumbled down through the furrows and clefts of the multitude of rocky outcrops. I left some of the cream colored clay around the base. I was transported into a vast dark landscape of mountain floating on a cloud of mist. I dried this vision and applied a little clear shoe polish and brushed it very hard onto the dark grey limestone surface. I polished it with my hand and it shone with a deep glow, not a shine, but something else. This was the first time the landscape had seen the light as well as me and I had a universe in my hand. A strange land that I could explore in my mind. A land that I could sit and contemplate. I had found a Suiseki. Of great age it certainly was. Of provenance, it came only from the soil but of the sheer delight and great happiness it now gives me, I can only hope that you will all find such a stone one day in your own back yard. Ir glacka mi Joe Davies soon beckool tores fin . (that's Klingon for 'With a tummy like Joe Davies I would hate to see him in Captain Picards uniform') Yours Aye and with very best wishes Craig Coussins. and if you already have not been there, please visit my site at: http://www.btinternet.com/~craig.coussins/ or ask any major search engine for Craig Coussins and you wll find my Pages. ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sun, 12 Oct 1997 13:19:03 PST Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca From: "Garry Garcia" Reply-To: "Garry Garcia" To: "marco favero" , Subject: Re: Natural or Unnatural- Suiseki presentation. Date: Sun, 12 Oct 1997 15:18:48 -0500 Message-ID: <01bcd74c$0c2a0ce0$155f47cc@ggarcia.vvm.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Marco, That is a very good point, it is so true that many of the good stones are buried in clay, etc. Perhaps I was a little hasty to say anything adverse about the use of a mild acid. There were times that I really could have used a little stronger cleaner. Yes, truly the Japanese have years of experience behind them, and their experience should be listened to very carefully. I think we can all use every bit of knowledge and advise that is out there. Occasionally there arises a point of disagreement and it is verbalized, but should not be as loud, and blatant as I did. Your point is well taken. Sincerely Garry -----Original Message----- From: marco favero To: viewing_stones@triumf.ca Date: Sunday, October 12, 1997 6:28 AM Subject: Re: Natural or Unnatural- Suiseki presentation. >At 20.52 10/10/97 -0500,Garry Garcia(ggarcia@vvm.com), you wrote: > > >>Patina....that should be natural....body oil is good for briar pipes, but >>stones, I don't think so, and Acid!!!! come on enough is enough, either it >>is a naturally good stone or it is not. > >Garry, > >i taken a look at your web site,good work and good pictures,my best compliments; >you state that your stones are collected in rivers,stream,mountains,deserts >etc. around the world and i can understand your thoughts;but not all stones >sites are as you know;in Ligurian Alpes for example all stones are under >ground and furthermore covered from 3 to 6 cm of clay;when you find a stone >you cannot say if it is a good or a bad specimen,you must before clean it >for to show its own characteristic and in much cases be very careful for not >break every small brittle peaks:then in these cases when you fear to damage your >stone,it is necessary to use Acid for to decover all stone structure and also >for to protect your lungs' health since protective mask isn't enough for dust, >and believe me there is so much dust with all drills in Italian stones.this >operation allows to take away a great part of clay and you can work the rest >with safety of both,you and stone. > >for patina you can agree or disagree,this problem is yours;surely if Japanese >suiseki lovers give us their experience of many and many years of these >practices,you must consider yourself free of to use them or not,nobody binds >you to respect them. > >all that said above it was just for knowledge and information. >know rules and after do what your mind says to do. > >friendly regards and very happy to have you once again with us. > >marco > >favero@inrete.it > ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sun, 12 Oct 1997 13:23:20 PST Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca From: "Garry Garcia" Reply-To: "Garry Garcia" To: "Craig Coussins" , Subject: Re: Hello y'all Date: Sun, 12 Oct 1997 15:23:16 -0500 Message-ID: <01bcd74c$abec2ec0$155f47cc@ggarcia.vvm.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Craig, welcome back, I am very glad that you came back, your knowledge and experience would have been a great loss for sure. Sincerely Garry I -----Original Message----- From: Craig Coussins To: viewing_stones@triumf.ca Date: Sunday, October 12, 1997 7:33 AM Subject: Hello y'all >I agree with the sentiments of Marco. If the discussions are helpful then >fine. The stone is the thing not the personality. Personal comments could >therefor go directly to the person and not enter group discussions. I >apologize to the readers for causing irritation to them and I am happy to >return as I hope Garry, my friend, will also. At 50 years of age I think >its about time I stopped reacting to perception anyway! >Yours Aye and with very best wishes >Craig Coussins. >and if you already have not been there, please visit my site at: >http://www.btinternet.com/~craig.coussins/ >or ask any major search engine for Craig Coussins >and you wll find my Pages. > ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sun, 12 Oct 1997 13:40:00 PST Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca From: "Garry Garcia" Reply-To: "Garry Garcia" To: "Lynn boyd" , Subject: Re: THE AGE THING Date: Sun, 12 Oct 1997 15:40:09 -0500 Message-ID: <01bcd74f$07ae8f80$155f47cc@ggarcia.vvm.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Yes I agree with this rational, that the pedigree was actually a foundation, and basis for the art. I have seen many antique stones, including the Rosenblum Collection (pictures only), but none of them are poor stones, all excellent. There is an antique Japanese stone on my site owned by Mr.. Sampson, it is quite beautiful, and more than likely pedigree, see the collectors gallery. The point I am trying to make is if a stone is old and has made it through the generations, it is normally good, I think the bad ones would be weeded out along the way. Garry -----Original Message----- From: Lynn boyd To: viewing_stones@triumf.ca Date: Sunday, October 12, 1997 11:46 AM Subject: RE: THE AGE THING > > Peter: > Your reminder of the power and purpose of connoisseurship > is timely . . . for sure. > Wouldn't surprise me if it existed well back into the > Scholars' Stones age, and can't help but wonder how it may > have brought about some rationalizing philosophical concepts > that have come down to us through the ages. > Nevertheless, I think you may be saying, also, that it has > its place, serves as a guide, supplies something around which > we can gather our ayes or nays about an art while we search out > our own. > Really a good point you made. > Darn! Guess I have to thank Andy for stirring it up! > > Lynn > ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sun, 12 Oct 1997 13:56:50 PST Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca Date: Sun, 12 Oct 1997 23:01:04 +0200 Message-ID: <199710122101.XAA15497@inrete.it> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: viewing_stones@triumf.ca From: marco favero Reply-To: marco favero Subject: Re: The stone that is called Suiseki At 20.47 12/10/97 +0100 Craig Coussins(craig.coussins@btinternet.com) , you wrote: -good snip- >This was the first time the landscape had seen the light as well as me and >I had a universe in my hand. >A strange land that I could explore in my mind. A land that I could sit and >contemplate. >I had found a Suiseki. >Of great age it certainly was. Of provenance, it came only from the soil >but of the sheer delight and great happiness it now gives me, I can only >hope that you will all find such a stone one day in your own back yard. Craig, i'm very happy you found the stone,pardon,the Suiseki of your dreams,and since it comes from my country i'm double glad. some stone like yours "the great canyon" has been collected by Luciana Garbini in Ligurian Alps some times ago;i have a picture of one,a bit dark but enough clear,it is avaliable at request from you or from other people who wishes to see it. Luciana,as artist,has painted a sunset behind her suiseki for to create a touching and surreal atmosphere and to research her own way. let me know if you want compare yours with this one,thanks. my best wishes marco favero@inrete.it ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sun, 12 Oct 1997 13:58:02 PST Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca From: "Garry Garcia" Reply-To: "Garry Garcia" To: "Craig Coussins" , Subject: Re: The stone that is called Suiseki Date: Sun, 12 Oct 1997 15:58:10 -0500 Message-ID: <01bcd751$8c6ce1c0$155f47cc@ggarcia.vvm.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Now that's a suiseki!! Craig, that sounds like a beautiful stone. I am beginning to see why a certain amount of acid should be used on stones collected beneath the surface. Never heard of the shoe polish being used, I like that idea very much, is it the neutral polish that you are using? Garry -----Original Message----- From: Craig Coussins To: viewing_stones@triumf.ca Date: Sunday, October 12, 1997 2:56 PM Subject: The stone that is called Suiseki >While the comments are a little facetious when it comes to both another >culture and our own love and pleasure from the collecting or understanding >of Suiseki, it should be, surely, remembered that this is but a stone. >We put our own viewpoint on the stone we collect and while some are arguing >the rights and wrongs of rare or aged suiseki, it is still a stone. >No one is forcing anyone to buy a stone as the finding is so much more >pleasurable. >I have searched for many years and only recently found the stone that I >like. >I found this on the shore of a lake high up in the mountains of Italy. >Covered with clay the shape was pleasant and interesting. The clay was >crumbly but had taken on a nice image that reminded me of my favorite spot >on earth, The Grand Canyon. >I had given a similar stone to Joe Davies a couple of years ago and really >like what he had done with it and that inspired me to 'have a go'. >I dipped the stone in the acid bath or PathClear a solution to clean, well, >paths actually, and took it out after 10 minutes. I cleaned away the clay >and the dark limestone crept through. >It was unbelievable. The centre became a volcano and the valleys >surrounding the main crater were flowing and soaring into the distance. The >secondary hills swept down to the end of the stone and rivers tumbled down >through the furrows and clefts of the multitude of rocky outcrops. I left >some of the cream colored clay around the base. >I was transported into a vast dark landscape of mountain floating on a >cloud of mist. >I dried this vision and applied a little clear shoe polish and brushed it >very hard onto the dark grey limestone surface. I polished it with my hand >and it shone with a deep glow, not a shine, but something else. >This was the first time the landscape had seen the light as well as me and >I had a universe in my hand. >A strange land that I could explore in my mind. A land that I could sit and >contemplate. >I had found a Suiseki. >Of great age it certainly was. Of provenance, it came only from the soil >but of the sheer delight and great happiness it now gives me, I can only >hope that you will all find such a stone one day in your own back yard. >Ir glacka mi Joe Davies soon beckool tores fin . >(that's Klingon for 'With a tummy like Joe Davies I would hate to see him >in Captain Picards uniform') >Yours Aye and with very best wishes >Craig Coussins. >and if you already have not been there, please visit my site at: >http://www.btinternet.com/~craig.coussins/ >or ask any major search engine for Craig Coussins >and you wll find my Pages. > ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sun, 12 Oct 1997 14:45:01 PST Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca From: "Craig Coussins" Reply-To: "Craig Coussins" To: Subject: The Stone Date: Sun, 12 Oct 1997 22:40:25 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: Yes Garry, it is a neutral shoe polish. I met Joe through his interest in Suiseki and he and Dave Sampson had started the society that had to unfortunately cease. I gleaned from Joe that one of the ways to brighten up or darken down a suiseki depending on colour, was the use of neutral shoe polish. I wish to enjoy my suiseki in my lifetime and find that using Joe Davies's many techniques works well for me. I learn from many people and try and share that teaching in turn. My philosophy is, as you can see on my site, 'Share what you learn and learn what you share, but with your heart and not your pocket' Yours Aye and with very best wishes Craig Coussins. and if you already have not been there, please visit my site at: http://www.btinternet.com/~craig.coussins/ or ask any major search engine for Craig Coussins and you wll find my Pages. ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sun, 12 Oct 1997 14:52:19 PST Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca From: "Craig Coussins" Reply-To: "Craig Coussins" To: Subject: Re: The Age Thing Date: Sun, 12 Oct 1997 22:47:39 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: Ah So! Och aye Chris yer wee wurds bring a fashie to yersel. (Coussins is an abbreviated form of Rakussons. My family were from Latvia and escaped the Tsars pogroms at the turn of the century. My wife is Russian and I have been paying her back ever since. My mother family go back to the 13th century in Scotland...that's the Age thing! ) Yours Aye and with very best wishes Craig Coussins. and if you already have not been there, please visit my site at: http://www.btinternet.com/~craig.coussins/ or ask any major search engine for Craig Coussins and you wll find my Pages. ---------- From: Chris Cochrane To: Joe Davies ; Craig.Coussins@btinternet.com Subject: Re: The Age Thing Date: 12 October 1997 22:10 Hi, Joe. Hi, Craig. Joe writes, > I live in England, a country. Craig lives in Scotland, also a country. > Together with another little country called Wales they constitute the > United Kingdom. The English are all sohisticated, intelligent and > peace-loving. The Scots are Highlanders that wear kilts, are war-like and > proud... Ah, you remind me that Craig lives in Scotland. I guess I'll call up the Cochrane clan to defend my honor before these pesky Coussins... (who actually may be cousins)... :-) On the other hand, our "war-like and proud" relatives might prefer ravaging a "sophisticated, intelligent & peace-loving" Davies's family to the south... Seriously, I have been off-line this weekend and am surprised by the interchanges. Andy Miksys sure knows how to push my button. Apparently I pushed Craig's. I was very sorry that neither he nor anyone else responded to my sincerely posed questions. I certainly didn't intend to defame you, Craig, and I am glad that you post things that I do not understand as discussion of them helps me grow. In response to Andy, who surely loves pulling legs, I'll try to put something together on "_makota_" (sincerity/true intent/utter integrity) and/or on valuing tea objects based on provenance among other things, which places beauty/value not as something intrinsic in an object but on those aspects of an object that pull something out of the viewer. Chris... C. Cochrane, mailto:sashai@erols.com, Richmond VA USA ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sun, 12 Oct 1997 17:39:13 PST Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca From: "Garry Garcia" Reply-To: "Garry Garcia" To: "Craig Coussins" , Subject: Re: The Stone Date: Sun, 12 Oct 1997 19:39:20 -0500 Message-ID: <01bcd770$71f630c0$dd5f47cc@ggarcia.vvm.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I will give it a try, I am sure it will work fine. Joe Davies was the one who originally got me interested in Suiseki, and suggested that I build a site dedicated only to the subject, in fact many of his ideas are incorporated on my site, for example the International Collectors Page, he thought it would be a good idea to have a page dedicated to anyone in the world who wanted their stone presented on the www, and did not have a site, I thought it was a good idea, and there it is. I have solicited this list a couple of times, and received a few good pic's which have been added, and I have two places in reserve for pictures that will be sent to me when they are ready. I still extend that welcome to anyone who wants to send a picture of their favorite stone. I have seen several things lately that I need to update, especially on my FAQ page, anyone who would like to help me with this update project is more than welcome, heavy critisizm is a must in this case, please keep the cursing to a minimum(:>) And yes Craig does live by giving from the heart, I have seen examples of this personally, some of which I choose not to publish, as I know he would rather me not. All for now Garry -----Original Message----- From: Craig Coussins To: viewing_stones@triumf.ca Date: Sunday, October 12, 1997 4:49 PM Subject: The Stone >Yes Garry, it is a neutral shoe polish. > >I met Joe through his interest in Suiseki and he and Dave Sampson had >started the society that had to unfortunately cease. >I gleaned from Joe that one of the ways to brighten up or darken down a >suiseki depending on colour, was the use of neutral shoe polish. > >I wish to enjoy my suiseki in my lifetime and find that using Joe Davies's >many techniques works well for me. > >I learn from many people and try and share that teaching in turn. > >My philosophy is, as you can see on my site, > >'Share what you learn and learn what you share, but with your heart and not >your pocket' > >Yours Aye and with very best wishes >Craig Coussins. >and if you already have not been there, please visit my site at: >http://www.btinternet.com/~craig.coussins/ >or ask any major search engine for Craig Coussins >and you wll find my Pages. > ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sun, 12 Oct 1997 18:06:03 PST Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca From: "Joe Davies" Reply-To: "Joe Davies" To: "Garry Garcia" , "Craig Coussins" , Subject: Re: The Stone Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 02:04:21 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: > And yes Craig does live by giving from the heart, I have seen examples of > this personally, some of which I choose not to publish, as I know he would > rather me not. He's not been sending around those piccies of his face montaged onto a photo of Arnold Swarzenneger's body again has he? :-)) ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sun, 12 Oct 1997 22:12:38 PST Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: viewing_stones@triumf.ca From: John Quinn Reply-To: John Quinn Subject: Suiseki in general Date: Sun, 12 Oct 1997 22:28:06 -0700 Message-ID: <05280657307247@metro.net> I have been following the current thread as I imagine many are and on a regular basis review the web sites that offer stones and dais as examples of this art form. Several thoughts come to mind. I have been a Bonsai grower for 25 years and an active Suiseki collector(in the field - I don't as a general rule purchase stones) for the last 15 years. I have a number of stones, some books on the subject, a monthly subscription to the Japanese magazine, belong to the Calif Suiseki Society, go to shows and in general try to comprehend the Eastern thought process as it relates to man and nature and to specifically concentrate on this art form. I have some stones that I think, I know, only I see something in, some that do not fit a classification because one does not exist, and some that my peers feel are what "that" classification is all about. The bottom line is - I know nothing! I have an idea about where I came from but am uncertain as to where I am going. From some of the posts and the web sites it appears to me that not a lot of time and effort goes into the understanding of this art form. Both areas, written and visual, in my opinion, support this comment. jrq ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 08:45:46 PST Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: viewing_stones@triumf.ca From: Andy Miksys Reply-To: Andy Miksys Subject: The age thing again Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 11:48:36 -0400 Message-ID: <15483607268688@ica.net> Lynn wrote: >>>>>>O-o-oh! Andy! You have me reacting here!! (Heard that before, haven't you? :) Those are rather harsh words of put-down for viewpoints that go much deeper than the surface you are scratching at. Look for a metaphorical meaning, look for a ritual that has some significance, look for a cultural depth that escapes you right now. Sometimes it requires research. Lasting conventions and rituals started for a reason that isn't always quickly apparent - slow down a bit - use a little heart with these things, huh? Your language makes it understood you take a viewpoint that some things call for ridicule. Now, Andy, what do want? Do you want to be agreed with ? or do you want to enlighten us?, or just to make your feelings known,? because your language also contains feelings. Lynn<<<<<<<<<< Lynn - I love you - I really do! Please don't misconstrue my comments as personally attacking you. Lynn - where you view me as scratching at the surface and not seeing the greater metaphorical picture - I view you as having your head in gaga land. I don't profess to be an expert, but I'm not without some understanding of the cultural context in which this art has developed. Perhaps I'm just a bit more pragmatic in my outlook on these subjects. The beauty and wonder is that together we can enjoy this art from our differing viewpoints. Yes, some things, when transported to new cultural environs, don't make sense and need to be highlighted and their continued relevance questioned. Let me illustrate with an absurdity. The running of the bulls is a festival steeped in Spanish culture and history - arguably ingrained in the Spanish male psyche. Transport next year's running of the bulls onto the streets of New York and what do you have? Lynn perhaps it is my perspective down here scratching in the dirt that allows me to see some of these items clearly, like the nonsensical notion that a pedigree will enhance the aesthetic (not market) quality of the suiseki. What I would like to do is point out some of these issues and offer them for discussion vis-a-vis their continued relevance in this global village. Then after debate, and when the prevailing idea wins the day - with logic and reason - the issue can be put aside and the next one dealt with. I view each individual on this list as a thinking being, each capable of making up his or her own mind. I do not wish to teach anyone anything - and from my perspective down here in the dirt I can't - people learn by themselves. And I don't really care if someone agrees with me or not - it is their brain, their decision and their life. My motives are really very simple - to stimulate discussion and permit me, at the very least, to learn from that honest discussion. And Lynn - I do love you. Thanks; Andy Miksys ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 08:46:32 PST Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: viewing_stones@triumf.ca From: Andy Miksys Reply-To: Andy Miksys Subject: The Age thing yet again Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 11:49:27 -0400 Message-ID: <15492768768712@ica.net> Marco wrote the following - for brevity my earlier comments have been removed: <<<<<>>>> ******* Marco - chill. Your comments are taking on a personal vitriolic tone - which I for one do not appreciate. We were discussing pedigree in suiseki. Can it be Marco that if you support the notion that pedigree in suiseki enhances its aesthetic (not market) quality that the best argument you can make in support of this notion is a personal attack on me? However Marco - I will indulge in your request and share with you my 'deep thoughts' on this subject. We homo sapiens differ from other animals in that we possess culture which permits us to manipulate our environment for our own well being. In addition, we are universally concerned with our origins and our ultimate place in the cosmos. From this earthly mission is borne our deep reverence for nature (God). From our quest to understand our place in the cosmos is borne an affinity for structure, for understanding, for knowledge, for religion and beauty as in art. When a suiseki artist manipulates his environment and holds a stone before his neighbour and says "Behold - I have here something truly wonderful." And when that neighbour's eye glistens with the reaction to God's beauty - an emotional exchange has taken place between himself, his own inner self, his God and the artist. That emotional exchange has permitted the neighbour to take one infinitesimally small step towards his own understanding of his place in the cosmos. Part of God's beauty lies in the stone itself and another part lies in the artist's genius - a gift from God. In this forum we are discussing the earthly matters of artistic technique. These matters are dust which may be swept away with ease. Thanks; Andy Miksys ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 08:46:43 PST Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: viewing_stones@triumf.ca From: Andy Miksys Reply-To: Andy Miksys Subject: The Age thing for the 3rd time Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 11:49:32 -0400 Message-ID: <15493278468715@ica.net> Joe wrote: >>>>> I'm in Canada, Craig is in Scotland, Joe Davies somewhere in the UK I live in England, a country. Craig lives in Scotland, also a country. Together with another little country called Wales they constitute the United Kingdom. The English are all sohisticated, intelligent and peace-loving. The Scots are Highlanders that wear kilts, are war-like and proud, the Welsh are something else. Thus the English are like the Federation, the Scots the Klingons and the Welsh the Tribbles. I have a stone that the 2 prominent collectors in the England (myself and Dave Sampson) are selling to each other on a monthly basis. Every month it changes hands. In two years time it will have a bucket load of pedigree having been owned (and loved) by 24 of the most prominent collectors outside Japan. It will now be worth a King's ransom. I shall sell it to a gullible 'art' collector and retire in the lap of luxury. Easy peasy. Joe<<<<< Joe perhaps I may be able to help. Please feel free to attach the following letter to the stone and claim that it is Internationally recognized. Now I know it won't carry the weight of the Japanese Suiseki Federation but - hey - every bit helps right? ***** October 13, 1997 Joe Davies/Dave Sampson Congratulations gentlemen your suiseki is of such high artistic value that I hereby bestow upon it this year's Perkunas Award. Sincerely; Andy Miksys President of the Lithuanian/Canadian Suiseki Federation ***** Who knows it might be worth a bob or two. Thanks; Andy Miksys ps. I know a couple of international collectors for whom pedigree is everything. ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 08:49:26 PST Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: viewing_stones@triumf.ca From: Andy Miksys Reply-To: Andy Miksys Subject: Saw! bit re-direct Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 11:52:18 -0400 Message-ID: <15521815268760@ica.net> >With the last posting I've just realized that my previous response to Peter >Aradi's question went directly to Peter and not to Peter and the group as >intended. So here goes. Andy- It happened to me, too! There seems to be something odd about the way the list is set up that causes this to happen. Would you please forward my response to the list? Thanks, Jay Jay Sinclair Zone 5/6, MI, USA sinclair@online.emich.edu I am a deeply religious nonbeliever.... This is a somewhat new kind of religion. Albert Einstein OK - Here goes #1. Andy ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 08:50:47 PST Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: viewing_stones@triumf.ca From: Andy Miksys Reply-To: Andy Miksys Subject: Saw! Re-direct 2 Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 11:53:39 -0400 Message-ID: <15533918868784@ica.net> Peter Aradi wrote: >>I have several stones which would look much better >>if I could cut the bottom flat. I can't find locally >>any saws for less than $800 as we have a single rock >>shop in town. >>I would appreciate any suggestion or idea how can I >>cut my stones.Some are only an 1" in diameter, some >>are up to 16". >>All suggestions are appreciated in advance. For small stuff, Kingsley North (800-338-9280) has 6" trim saws for about $200 (US). You might also check out local rock & mineral clubs. Sometimes they have tools available for members to use. Also, members of these clubs may know of used equipment for sale. I picked up a 6" trim saw for $30 in much this way. Andy Miksys wrote: >The basic tool is a standard 4-1/2" disc grinder with a masonry abrasive >blade. Fundamentally you hold (or brace) the rock in one hand and the disc >grinder in the other. Naturally you will be working outdoors as this >procedure is dusty. Safety glasses and a dust mask are a must. I have cut limestone using a masonry cut-off blade in my radial-arm saw. If you try this, take it slow. Make a shallow cut, lower the blade a bit, make another shallow cut, etc. Like Andy, I make no guarantees as to the safety of this procedure, and strongly recommend safety glasses and a good dust mask (not one of those cheapie "nuisance dust" masks, but a respirator rated for hazardous dusts and mists). I have not tried this on any rock harder than limestone. Jay Sinclair Zone 5/6, MI, USA sinclair@online.emich.edu I am a deeply religious nonbeliever.... This is a somewhat new kind of religion. Albert Einstein ***** And here is No.2 Andy ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 09:31:18 PST Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 12:34:17 -0400 (EDT) From: ManFont@aol.com Reply-To: ManFont@aol.com Message-ID: <971013123309_-1673095303@emout01.mail.aol.com> To: blackfly@ica.net CC: viewing_stones@triumf.ca Subject: Re: The age thing again Andy Miksys in a message dated 97-10-13 11:49:23 EDT, you write: << Yes, some things, when transported to new cultural environs, don't make sense and need to be highlighted and their continued relevance questioned.>> Andy, I agree fully with this and would take it even further to suggest that even our own cultural and personal mental constructs need to be continually questioned. << Lynn perhaps it is my perspective down here scratching in the dirt that allows me to see some of these items clearly, like the nonsensical notion that a pedigree will enhance the aesthetic (not market) quality of the suiseki.>> As an artist I abhor the concept of pedigree being equated with aesthetic value. I think that individuals fall into this way of thinking so as not to have to face the difficult internal questions; in other words, the easy way out is to accept anothers view as opposed to struggling with these concepts personally. This is not to deny that one can learn from others (including cultures) who have built up knowledge of a particular kind, but the final responsibility resides with each individual. <> I'm with you, Andy. I'll even listen to illogical and emotional arguments ;-) << I view each individual on this list as a thinking being, each capable of making up his or her own mind. I do not wish to teach anyone anything - and from my perspective down here in the dirt I can't - people learn by themselves. And I don't really care if someone agrees with me or not - it is their brain, their decision and their life. My motives are really very simple - to stimulate discussion and permit me, at the very least, to learn from that honest discussion. >> This is the essense of dialog; to exchange knowledge/beliefs. I hope everyone will speak freely and honestly even at the cost of conflict now and then. Sincerely, Luis Fontanills Miami, Florida ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 09:38:58 PST Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 09:42:09 -0700 (PDT) From: Lynn boyd Reply-To: Lynn boyd To: viewing_stones@triumf.ca Subject: Re: The age thing again Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Andy, > > Lynn - where you view me as scratching at the surface and not seeing the > greater metaphorical picture - I view you as having your head in gaga land. > I don't profess to be an expert, but I'm not without some understanding of > the cultural context in which this art has developed. Perhaps I'm just a bit > more pragmatic in my outlook on these subjects. The beauty and wonder is > that together we can enjoy this art from our differing viewpoints. Gee, Andy, I didn't think you were giving some of us a chance with our viewpoints. Your language usage sort of gets our adrenalin going and then we are not quite able to compose what goes for agreeable, sincere exchange of ideas. You challenge with a rather hostile vocabulary and attitude rather than approach a conversational tone. We adults have all sorts of games we play with rules to guide our conduct - football, soccer, poker, whatever- and the same with our exchange in discourse. We try to allow the other his say without rancor, we listen and then think before rebuttal of his stand, and we keep a sympathetic attitude toward the other's background, life experience and needs. And for what it is worth, we love our humanity as a whole so we do keep those rules for all our peace. However, you do bring ideas to the front, and we shall see how long and peacefully you can conduct the questions you have regarding the usual gradual adaptation of an art form to a different culture, etc. We've had a very interesting post from Peter re connoisseurship and Marco has stood his ground with good valor, and others, too, BUT, WHAT DO YOU MEAN MY HEAD'S IN GAGA LAND? YOU BEEN THERE? (That's okay, I'm laughing. It is, sometimes!) Go ahead, Andy: > Let me illustrate with an absurdity. The running of the bulls is a festival > steeped in Spanish culture and history - arguably ingrained in the Spanish > male psyche. Transport next year's running of the bulls onto the streets of > New York and what do you have? We have our rodeos as an alternative of our own. Mucho macho fun! > > Lynn perhaps it is my perspective down here scratching in the dirt that > allows me to see some of these items clearly, like the nonsensical notion > that a pedigree will enhance the aesthetic (not market) quality of the suiseki. I think that was explained in the concept of connoisseurship. And, I could add that some of us are sentimental about a sort of continuity in what extends from generation to generation - we sort of like the lineage of history. Pragmatism is not the ultimate goal of my life, however, FAR from it. :( > > What I would like to do is point out some of these issues and offer them for > discussion vis-a-vis their continued relevance in this global village. Then > after debate, and when the prevailing idea wins the day - with logic and > reason - the issue can be put aside and the next one dealt with. HERE is the problem, maybe. The idea of win and lose. Do you win if you persuade me by your logic that I lose by mine? It is not that simple. And it is not necessary to explain to your bright mind that winners and losers are not the participants in this kind of discussion. > I view each individual on this list as a thinking being, each capable of > making up his or her own mind. I do not wish to teach anyone anything - and > from my perspective down here in the dirt I can't - people learn by > themselves. And I don't really care if someone agrees with me or not - it is > their brain, their decision and their life. My motives are really very > simple - to stimulate discussion and permit me, at the very least, to learn > from that honest discussion. > > And Lynn - I do love you. > > Thanks; > > Andy Miksys > > ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 10:28:13 PST Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca Message-ID: <9710138767.AA876763879@okway.okstate.edu> Date: Mon, 13 Oct 97 12:28:01 -0600 From: "Tom LaBron" Reply-To: "Tom LaBron" To: , Subject: Re: The Age Thing MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hey Folks, I'm living here in the NC Oklahoma, but I will say that I have travelled a lot. Art is subjective. In the 70's some abstract art was sold for a high price at auction and it turns out it was done by a chimpanzee. Now if you were buying for investment the individuals were duped, but if you were buying because you liked it then it doesn't make any difference if you still liked it. You may or may not profess loudly it was done by a chimp, but that is up to the person. In India I paid about $2,200 for a silk carpet which in New York sells for $14,000 for its size and quality, but here in NC Oklahoma I would be lucky to sell it if I so desired. In Joplin, Missouri there was an old antique dealer whole had a customer that watching the old dealer's cat eating from a dish. He told the dealer than he thought the cat had an exceptional color pattern and wanted to buy the cat. After some cajoling the dealer relented and sold the cat to the customer for $20. As the customer was leaving he stopped and asked if the dealer if he would throw in the cat's dish to have some familiar in his new surroundings. The Old antique dealer told him he couldn't afford to do that for he sold a lot of cat's when they were seen eating out of the bowl. The customer left knowing that he had been duped because what he was really trying to do was trick the dealer out of an antique Amborina bowl which is what he really wanted. Now an interesting question. IF there are some beautiful stones in a wall that is coming down and an individual got some of these stones, is the age deemed when it was harvested for Suiseki or when they were harvested for the wall, which by the way was about a hundred years ago. So technically they have been out and weathering a getting a patina naturally for a long time, is the stone a shinseki or older. Just wondering. Regards from Pawnee America. Tom La Bron LTA, Oklahoma State University Office: norbal@okway.okstate.edu Home: norbalt@juno.com ------------------------------------------------------------------ ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: The Age Thing Author: Andy Miksys at SMTP Date: 10/12/97 10:15 AM Marco replied: >Age in this case starts when stone is collected and it is called Shinseki >(new stone);only after from 7 to 20 yrs it becomes a Suiseki and a >Meiseki if its qualities are sufficient;if Meiseki is sold to VIP,then it >can become a Yuraiseki. >hope this helps. To my original query: (quoting Craig) >>>There are five main elements according to Matsuura. These are: >>>SHAPE >>>QUALITY >>>COLOUR >>>TEXTURE >>>AGE. >>What the hell does age have to do with it? Thanks Marco. Age then, is Japanese code for pedigree. The 'aesthetic' quality of the stone in enhanced (or undermined) by the pedigree (or lack thereof) of the stone. Let me see if I understand this. Mr.X collects a stone in 1923 and displays it. His son Mr.X1 inherits the stone and sells it to Mr.Y who later sells it to (stupid but rich ) Mr.Z for a bag of money. The fact that the stone is and always will be a dog-pooh-maki doesn't enter into the discussion. The stone's market value and pedigree have a direct bearing on it's aesthetic value. It is of great(er) aesthetic value because Mr.X,X1,Y & stupid but rich Mr.Z say it is. (I think I've just gained a new understanding of the concept of ancestor worship.) Further, if I get this 'age/pedigree' concept right, the aesthetic value (in Japanese terms) of a stone is greater if, displayed next to it, is a letter from the President of the Japanese Suiseki Society stating that it's a nice stone. I understand market value increasing - but aesthetic quality being modified by pedigree is nonsense. This has to be one of the stupidest things I've heard in a long time. And it's so typically Japanese. Thanks Marco for sharing this. ********** This internet forum, by it's very nature, has as its central discussion the dissemination of suiseki knowledge and appreciation into the west. I'm in Canada, Craig is in Scotland, Joe Davies somewhere in the UK, Marco in Italy, Chris is in Richmond VA, Lynn's on the left coast and so forth - we cannot help but view this art through our own personal, culturally modified, glasses. Several of us have studied suiseki, scholars stones and rockery from within the original cultural foundations of Japanese and Chinese thought and history. And some are more accomplished at these studies than others. This is a good thing. It is our cultural diversity and breadth of knowledge which will make this forum interesting and useful. I've just learned, thanks to Marco, that the original Japanese suiseki aesthetic consideration includes a pedigree. From this Canadian's perspective - it just doesn't fly. Slowly, bit by bit, idea by idea, we will reinvent suiseki on our own terms. Personally I don't believe that to appreciate Japanese food one has to sit on the floor and cram their legs under a little table. Similarly we will take from the oriental suiseki/scholar stone conventions only those ideas that make sense to us, in our own context, and discard everything else. All ideas are up for grabs. There is no right or wrong. And for the record - the carved wooden base in which the stone sits is called 'a wooden base'. I don't give a rat's ass what they call it in Japan. Thanks; Andy Miksys ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 10:50:49 PST Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 10:53:58 -0700 (PDT) From: Lynn boyd Reply-To: Lynn boyd To: viewing_stones@triumf.ca Subject: Help me get off this list! (fwd) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 10:50:47 +0700 From: Joyca Cunnan To: Lynn boyd Subject: Help me get off this list! Dear Suiseki group, I have mistakenly wandered into your conversation and I want to exit but, being new on the internet, I'm not sure how. I've tried to go back to find what I did but can't find the subscription list. I am mildly interested in Suiseki but am not into it as deeply as you all are. I live in Northern California near the Eel River which is supposed to be a very good place to find Suiseki. I wanted to know a little bit more but all of these e-mail's I'm getting are a bit much. I would appreciate it if you or anybody else could take my name off of your e-mail list. Gratefully, Joyca Cunnan ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 11:49:23 PST Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca Message-ID: <2.2.32.19971013181657.006b31fc@mailhost.fyi.sas.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 14:16:57 -0400 To: viewing_stones@triumf.ca From: Hilton Freed Reply-To: Hilton Freed Subject: hmmmmmm don't drop off the list - since i joined many months ago, the list has been very quiet - all of a sudden, pow ! hang in there, once the controversy dies down, it will get better. Sincerely, Hilton Freed Information Specialist 919-677-8000 ext. 6044 sashdf@unx.sas.com fax: 919-677-4444 For on-line information on the World Wide Web: click On --> http://www.sas.com ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 12:33:01 PST Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 12:36:01 -0700 (PDT) From: Lynn boyd Reply-To: Lynn boyd To: viewing_stones@triumf.ca Subject: Re: Help me get off this list! (fwd) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Joyce, I could not deal with your msg at the time it came because of work, so I fwded it. I hoped someone might be able to help you with some information about the Eel River area California if it reached the group, but as yet, I see nothing posted. Please give it time here. Many of the subscribers will have only periods of the day when they are on. Try for awhile to just delete what is running, because these threads, while informative to some are not to all, of course, and you will find that this changes. Just go ahead and post a question regardless of the thread. Someone will be lurking, not interested either in the current thread, and take up your thread. This group is usually quiet to dull :( - so give it a little more time, please. I am sure you will hear in time about Eel Creek. Lynn ------------------ Dear Suiseki group, I have mistakenly wandered into your conversation and I want to exit but, being new on the internet, I'm not sure how. I've tried to go back to find what I did but can't find the subscription list. I am mildly interested in Suiseki but am not into it as deeply as you all are. I live in Northern California near the Eel River which is supposed to be a very good place to find Suiseki. I wanted to know a little bit more but all of these e-mail's I'm getting are a bit much. I would appreciate it if you or anybody else could take my name off of your e-mail list. Gratefully, Joyca Cunnan ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 12:59:15 PST Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca Message-ID: <34427E50.516E@traverse.com> Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 16:02:24 -0400 From: Deb Kennedy and Glen Johnson Reply-To: debglen@traverse.com MIME-Version: 1.0 To: viewing_stones@triumf.ca Subject: Pedigree and age Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello All, I'll go ahead and throw a little more fuel on this fire. Whether the pedigree of the stone is important or not depends SOLELY on the individual. When we discuss suiseki, we're discussing an aesthetic experience, aren't we? There will be some individuals who derive their aesthetic pleasures from a strictly sensory basis. Others will find their experience enhanced when they feel some sort of connection made with others who have also found pleasure in a particular stone, or in the traditions of the art. (These categories are, of course, neither all-inclusive nor mutually exclusive.) I find it as distasteful to ridicule those who care about the pedigree as it is to sneer at those who don't follow the "rules." There have been some very interesting thoughts brought out in this discussion, and I would hate to see anyone's opinion steamrollered. I must, however take exception to Glen Miller's comments about dog pedigrees (no offense, Glen!). He wrote: > A dog is still a dog even if his great grandfather won every > dog show ever entered. But they are sold on that heritage. This is some how > supposed to make the current dog more valuable. Obviously this is a real > and simple ploy to ask more money for the dog I have two beloved dogs whose pedigree runs along the lines of "daddy was a travelin' man." I wouldn't trade them for any show dog. On the other hand, I have a French Bulldog bitch whose pedigree IS important. We're talking genetics here. I have to know something about her background in order to know whether she is worth breeding, and I have to know something of the stud dog's pedigree to determine whether it would be a suitable match. It is only uneducated or unscrupulous breeders who make a big deal of champions in the pedigree in order to make money from a less-than-desirable dog--and it is why we have so many deaf Dalmations, blind Collies, and German Shepherds with hip dysplasia. Reputable breeders are interested in improving the breed, and few make money from it. None of which has anything to do with the pedigree of a stone. Unless someone out there has figured out how to breed them. (You haven't, have you?) ;-) Sincerely, Deb Kennedy -- debglen@traverse.com Traverse City, MI "A conclusion is the place where you got tired thinking."--Martin H. Fischer ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 14:00:31 PST Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 23:04:42 +0200 Message-ID: <199710132104.XAA30469@inrete.it> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: viewing_stones@triumf.ca From: marco favero Reply-To: marco favero Subject: A suiseki-Joke(was Re: The Age thing yet again). At 11.49 13/10/97 -0400 Andy Miksys, you wrote: Andy wrote the following - for brevity my earlier comments have been removed: >Marco - chill. Andy - hot. >Your comments are taking on a personal vitriolic tone - which I for one do >not appreciate. don't we spoke of Acid for cleaning stones?:-). >We were discussing pedigree in suiseki. ah,sorry,you was speaking of Age thing and pedigree:well pedigree according with my dictionary means "pied de grue" in french or in a broad sense genealogical certificate if you don't understand french.pedigree is used restrictively,rectify me if i'm wrong,above all for to establish family tree of animals and in particular of dogs,right? now i challenge you to find some relation between dogs and stones;have stones a genealogical certificate? can you tell me which is father and mother of my dear stone collected to Ligurian Alps?i am very very happy to know them for to write their names in my handbook,thanks. Andy,please,if you want to give me some philosophical ideas,know that i'm a bit eclectic and a lot sophistic. >Can it be Marco that if you support the notion that pedigree in suiseki >enhances its aesthetic (not market) quality that the best argument you can >make in support of this notion is a personal attack on me? this is your opinion;all the people who knows me thinks exactly the opposite,but that is another thing. Nihil est dictu facilius said my ancestors and i agree,your statement is a bit vague,you and not me spoke of pedigree,read again my post before to say a thing which i havn't supported. >However Marco - I will indulge in your request and share with you my 'deep >thoughts' on this subject. i'm all ears:-) >We homo sapiens differ from other animals in that we possess culture which >permits us to manipulate our environment for our own well being. In >addition, we are universally concerned with our origins and our ultimate >place in the cosmos. From this earthly mission is borne our deep reverence >for nature (God). From our quest to understand our place in the cosmos is >borne an affinity for structure, for understanding, for knowledge, for >religion and beauty as in art. untill here i follow you loud and clear >When a suiseki artist manipulates his environment and holds a stone before >his neighbour and says "Behold - I have here something truly wonderful." And >when that neighbour's eye glistens with the reaction to God's beauty - an >emotional exchange has taken place between himself, his own inner self, his >God and the artist. That emotional exchange has permitted the neighbour to >take one infinitesimally small step towards his own understanding of his >place in the cosmos. please,explain me,if for example i'm atheist or shintoist or whatever except believer,which will be my reactions to find "something truly wonderful"? the same? if yes,then you see that you share the same feelings like me or Japanese;no doubt you have some common point with them and me,and since you stated that they are a bit stupid,according to this fact i leave to imagine the rest.....:-). >Part of God's beauty lies in the stone itself and another part lies in the >artist's genius - a gift from God. > >In this forum we are discussing the earthly matters of artistic technique. >These matters are dust which may be swept away with ease. i agree with these last words,remember folks,all your stones arn't eternal, but as said in Bible(Genesis,3,19;Psalms,102,14;Ecclesiastes,12,7 and 3,20): memento homo(in this case,Petra) quia pulvis es et in pulverem reverteris. Now Andy,i apologize for to have done this suiseki-joke,i hope you can see this as a joke and NOT as an attack to you.i'm used to respect all the people and to be tolerant with all. so,please,i offer you my friendship and hope you forget my Pindaric flights. i read with interest all your posts,if your feelings are true, you can find your suiseki's way,good luck and have a good laugh. my best regards. marco favero@inrete.it ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 15:43:04 PST Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca Message-ID: <199710132254.SAA24651@smtp1.erols.com> From: "Chris Cochrane" Reply-To: "Chris Cochrane" To: Subject: Re: The Age Thing Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 18:42:37 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I've seen more written on the Japanese valuing tea objects based on provenance, but I can see it would apply similarly to a viewing stone. The collector of taste sees beauty/value not as something intrinsic in an object but on those aspects of an object that pull something out of the viewer. Even the humblest of objects might have the highest aesthetic merit. Everyday Korean bowls of very modest provenance have been recognized by Japanese tea masters as "beautiful," even with their obvious flaws. The provenance here was an unknown humble potter making everyday objects that were beautiful because the potter was not focusing upon "beauty" but rather focused on a functional piece created with little artifice and economic production. On the other hand, there are tea objects of precise provenance. Here is a short tale from D. T. Suzuki's _Zen and Japanese Culture_ that might relate: ------------------------------ When Toyatomi Hideyoshi was engaged in besieging Odawara castle, he was repulsed for months. To relieve his generals, he requested [... :-(...] Sen no Rikyu to provide them with tea parties. When there was no available flower vase for the room, he told Rikyu to get one. Rikyu thought to make one of bamboo, an original concept and fashioned the vase himself. As the bamboo dried, it showed a crack which became the characteristic mark of the vase, and it has been known since as the "Onjoji vase." Onjoji is a historical Buddhist temple on Lake Biwa that is known for having a crack in its bell [hmm, doesn't that sound familiar... ?]. Rikyu's homely-looking bamboo vase became a sacred treasure among teamen. When one owner, Iyehara Jisen, was asked by a friend to view the vase, he was refused and asked to wait a year. In the meantime, Jisen constructed a new tearoom in which no bamboo was used in any form. The vase in the tokonoma was the only bamboo in sight. Jisen's friend was then shown the treasure in its most appropriate setting. The friend had been chagrined for a year over the refusal; but when seeing what Jisen had in mind, he felt grateful for the artistic attitude of reverence for Rikyu and his work. Fuyuki, a rich merchant, wanted to purchase the vase from Jisen for his own tearoom but Jisen would not part with it. Later, Jisen was in adverse circumstances and sent Fuyuki, who was once willing to pay 500 ryo for it, a message that he would sell it now for 450 ryo. Fuyuki sent the messenger back without an answer, but ordered his own messenger to follow Fuyuki's carrying 500 ryo. Fuyuki's messenger respectfully carried the vase back to its new owner. The idea was not to slight the value of such a treasure, but, apart from commercial interest, to treat it with due respect. Still later, the vase belonged to Lord Fumai (1751-1819), an accomplished teaist. When he was using the vase to entertain, his attendant noted that water drips from the crack, thus wetting the mat underneath. He asked the master if he would not have a cylindrical liner made for it. Lord Fumai replied, "The _furyu_ ('feeling for nature,' also 'refinement of life' in recognizing an instantaneous fleeting moment in time) of this bamboo vase consists in the very fact of its leakage." -------------------------------------------- Where does beauty arise from the Onjoji vase? From the artist, designer, material (NOT), design, previous owners, historical associations, the unintended crack... Where does beauty arise from a found stone? It may come from the plain heart of an ordinary man, and for some, it might be enhanced with knowledge of an object's past. Chris... C. Cochrane, mailto:sashai@erols.com, Richmond VA USA ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 15:56:37 PST Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 15:59:47 -0700 (PDT) From: Lynn boyd Reply-To: Lynn boyd To: viewing_stones@triumf.ca Subject: Re: The Age Thing Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Re: The Bamboo Vase Tale - Chris Cochrane's post: With this marvelous bit of literature we have almost come full circle on this philsophical issue - haven't we? If we have not been a busy NG before we have lately, and put ourselves through an initiation of intense fire. I should think that now we are able to withstand whatever our NG future brings. I have to say I have switched from facet to facet over which shines brightest as we moved along. I am grateful for your good company and exciting conversation. Lynn ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 17:37:00 PST Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca From: "Garry Garcia" Reply-To: "Garry Garcia" To: "Tom LaBron" , , Subject: Re: The Age Thing Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 19:37:00 -0500 Message-ID: <01bcd839$49060cc0$bbaa61ce@ggarcia.vvm.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Good story Tom, I think the stone in the wall technically would not count as being viewed (even though it may have been viewed in the wall), so once it is collected as a potential Suiseki, it would start the age at that time, as that is the time that it is realistically being viewed as a piece of art. Garry -----Original Message----- From: Tom LaBron To: blackfly@ica.net ; viewing_stones@triumf.ca Date: Monday, October 13, 1997 12:33 PM Subject: Re: The Age Thing > > Hey Folks, > > I'm living here in the NC Oklahoma, but I will say that I have travelled > a lot. Art is subjective. In the 70's some abstract art was sold for a > high price at auction and it turns out it was done by a chimpanzee. Now if > you were buying for investment the individuals were duped, but if you were > buying because you liked it then it doesn't make any difference if you > still liked it. You may or may not profess loudly it was done by a chimp, > but that is up to the person. > > In India I paid about $2,200 for a silk carpet which in New York sells > for $14,000 for its size and quality, but here in NC Oklahoma I would be > lucky to sell it if I so desired. > > In Joplin, Missouri there was an old antique dealer whole had a customer > that watching the old dealer's cat eating from a dish. He told the dealer > than he thought the cat had an exceptional color pattern and wanted to buy > the cat. After some cajoling the dealer relented and sold the cat to the > customer for $20. As the customer was leaving he stopped and asked if the > dealer if he would throw in the cat's dish to have some familiar in his new > surroundings. The Old antique dealer told him he couldn't afford to do > that for he sold a lot of cat's when they were seen eating out of the bowl. > The customer left knowing that he had been duped because what he was > really trying to do was trick the dealer out of an antique Amborina bowl > which is what he really wanted. > > Now an interesting question. IF there are some beautiful stones in a > wall that is coming down and an individual got some of these stones, is the > age deemed when it was harvested for Suiseki or when they were harvested > for the wall, which by the way was about a hundred years ago. So > technically they have been out and weathering a getting a patina naturally > for a long time, is the stone a shinseki or older. Just wondering. > > Regards from Pawnee America. > > Tom La Bron > LTA, Oklahoma State University > Office: norbal@okway.okstate.edu > Home: norbalt@juno.com > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ >______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ >Subject: The Age Thing >Author: Andy Miksys at SMTP >Date: 10/12/97 10:15 AM > > >Marco replied: > >>Age in this case starts when stone is collected and it is called Shinseki >>(new stone);only after from 7 to 20 yrs it becomes a Suiseki and a >>Meiseki if its qualities are sufficient;if Meiseki is sold to VIP,then it >>can become a Yuraiseki. >>hope this helps. > >To my original query: > >(quoting Craig) > >>>>There are five main elements according to Matsuura. These are: >>>>SHAPE >>>>QUALITY >>>>COLOUR >>>>TEXTURE >>>>AGE. > >>>What the hell does age have to do with it? > >Thanks Marco. > >Age then, is Japanese code for pedigree. The 'aesthetic' quality of the >stone in enhanced (or undermined) by the pedigree (or lack thereof) of the >stone. > >Let me see if I understand this. Mr.X collects a stone in 1923 and displays >it. His son Mr.X1 inherits the stone and sells it to Mr.Y who later sells it >to (stupid but rich ) Mr.Z for a bag of money. The fact that the stone is >and always will be a dog-pooh-maki doesn't enter into the discussion. The >stone's market value and pedigree have a direct bearing on it's aesthetic >value. It is of great(er) aesthetic value because Mr.X,X1,Y & stupid but >rich Mr.Z say it is. (I think I've just gained a new understanding of the >concept of ancestor worship.) > > >Further, if I get this 'age/pedigree' concept right, the aesthetic value (in >Japanese terms) of a stone is greater if, displayed next to it, is a letter >from the President of the Japanese Suiseki Society stating that it's a nice >stone. > >I understand market value increasing - but aesthetic quality being modified >by pedigree is nonsense. This has to be one of the stupidest things I've >heard in a long time. > >And it's so typically Japanese. > >Thanks Marco for sharing this. > >********** > >This internet forum, by it's very nature, has as its central discussion the >dissemination of suiseki knowledge and appreciation into the west. > >I'm in Canada, Craig is in Scotland, Joe Davies somewhere in the UK, Marco >in Italy, Chris is in Richmond VA, Lynn's on the left coast and so forth - >we cannot help but view this art through our own personal, culturally >modified, glasses. Several of us have studied suiseki, scholars stones and >rockery from within the original cultural foundations of Japanese and >Chinese thought and history. And some are more accomplished at these studies >than others. This is a good thing. It is our cultural diversity and breadth >of knowledge which will make this forum interesting and useful. > >I've just learned, thanks to Marco, that the original Japanese suiseki >aesthetic consideration includes a pedigree. From this Canadian's >perspective - it just doesn't fly. > >Slowly, bit by bit, idea by idea, we will reinvent suiseki on our own terms. >Personally I don't believe that to appreciate Japanese food one has to sit >on the floor and cram their legs under a little table. Similarly we will >take from the oriental suiseki/scholar stone conventions only those ideas >that make sense to us, in our own context, and discard everything else. > >All ideas are up for grabs. There is no right or wrong. > >And for the record - the carved wooden base in which the stone sits is >called 'a wooden base'. I don't give a rat's ass what they call it in Japan. > >Thanks; > >Andy Miksys > > > > ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 18:50:23 PST Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca From: "Garry Garcia" Reply-To: "Garry Garcia" To: Subject: Fw: The Age Thing Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 20:50:32 -0500 Message-ID: <01bcd843$8ec7d2c0$bbaa61ce@ggarcia.vvm.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Andy, I know one International Collector who places a great deal of value on a pedigree, that would be Mr.. Rosenblum. Hmmmm, haven't seen too many bad ones in his collection, how about you? The point is, a stone that has been passed from generation to generation normally is good, or it would not have made it this far. I personally do not have such a stone, mine are just at their beginning, and if they do not make it so be it, they are good looking to me. What is your point, is it that a stone that has been viewed for ages is not an antique, not of some possible valuable, and whoever buys such a stone is stupid, or are you just stuck on the word pedigree, instead of antique or ancient. Not asking for a pointed discussion, or argument, just some clarification on what your point is about someone paying for a good stone that is antique, or ancient. If you choose to answer try not to curse too much it is annoying when overdone. Garry ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 19:33:18 PST Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca From: "Garry Garcia" Reply-To: "Garry Garcia" To: Subject: Luciana Garbini's stone Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 21:33:33 -0500 Message-ID: <01bcd849$90dac580$bbaa61ce@ggarcia.vvm.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0008_01BCD81F.A804BD80" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01BCD81F.A804BD80 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Marco was kind enough to send me a pic of Luciana Garbini's "The Great = Canyon" , which has been added to the International Collectors Gallery, = click on the thumbnail to see the full picture. It is really is a = beautiful stone, check out the background picture as well. Special Thanks to Marco for adding this stone to the site: Site Address: http://www.vvm.com/~ggarcia see the collectors gallery. Garry ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01BCD81F.A804BD80 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Marco was=20 kind enough to send me a pic of Luciana Garbini's "The Great = Canyon" ,=20 which has been added to the International Collectors Gallery, click on = the=20 thumbnail to see the full picture.  It is really is a beautiful = stone,=20 check out the background picture as well.
 
Special=20 Thanks to Marco for adding this stone to the site:
 
Site = Address:  http://www.vvm.com/~ggarcia
see the=20 collectors gallery.
 
Garry
------=_NextPart_000_0008_01BCD81F.A804BD80-- ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 07:53:36 PST Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 10:56:41 -0400 (EDT) From: Mysteries@aol.com Reply-To: Mysteries@aol.com Message-ID: <971014104918_-1897720504@emout06.mail.aol.com> To: viewing_stones@triumf.ca Subject: Age and Respect I think it starts to get obvious here that in the complexity of viewing stones there are already positive breakdowns and categories in the ways in which the stones are viewed and collected. Even this is a variation in that the stones can be viewed one way and collected another. Examples right off the top would be those who collect their own as well as those who collect in the marketplace whether from other collectors, or dealers. There are those who collect from the Japanese or Chinese viewpoint and those who make it up as they go along. There are many others. There are going to be those (like myself I hope) who collect all ways. In collecting art the provenience of a piece does not change the essential aesthetic of the piece rather it adds differents auras of dimension to it. It humanizes the stone in that it gives it a time of experience among humans. Allowance must be made for those feel a spiritual, emotional or intellectual awe for the history of an object. I would say this is a human quality rather than a Japanese. To learn the Japanese or Chinese way of looking at the stones can only enhance the collecting which then itself becomes an artform. To add into that the Navaho, the Aboriginal, the Tarahumara way of looking at Place and the land is going to enhance it as well. There is a never ending process of growth in this give and take. I have tribal pieces or paintings that say different things to me now then when I bought them. The proveniences haven't changed, I have. At the core of what I am saying is respect. Even a revolutionary cannot cast out history or s/he will lose touch with the process of change itself. By understanding more we avoid solipsism. Personally I like stones that speak to others as well as myself. When Navaho elders examine and explain older blankets they seldom agree but each comment adds a nuance to the deepness of the image. So again I think it breaks down to that; we cannot impose our own collecting styles and self-imposed rules on the field itself which is bigger than all of us. Quality is always going to be relative and elusive but in the case of certain stones an ancient dialog has already begun on what quality in those stones is and we don't have to agree with it at all but we do have to respect it. Who has held the stone or owned the stone or changed the stone IS important to some of us. That is enough reason to discuss it. A Western aesthetic being forged to deal with other types of stones is also emerging not in a race war but in a sharing of universes. It might take centuries for all of it to merge if it does but the dialog needs radical developing to make sense. To fracture thought into East and West is non-ecological and fruitless. I would respect more those who understand fully the Asian stone concepts and THEN choose to reject or augment them. There is where the language for all this is going to come from. Randall ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 08:40:32 PST Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca Message-ID: <199710141551.LAA05277@smtp1.erols.com> From: "Chris Cochrane" Reply-To: "Chris Cochrane" To: Subject: Re: A suiseki-Joke(was Re: The Age thing yet again). Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 11:40:04 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Andy and Luis have both recently refuted, with good arguments IMO, the affect of age or provenance on inherent beauty. Among other things, Andy wrote, > >When a suiseki artist manipulates his environment and holds a stone before > >his neighbour and says "Behold - I have here something truly wonderful." And > >when that neighbour's eye glistens with the reaction to God's beauty - an > >emotional exchange has taken place between himself, his own inner self, his > >God and the artist. That emotional exchange has permitted the neighbour to > >take one infinitesimally small step towards his own understanding of his > >place in the cosmos. Luis is an architect, so I'm going to aim straight at what I believe is his generous heart. What Andy described is exactly what I expect to feel, again, when I step into the Pantheon in Rome next month. As I look up into the oculus where rain falls but dissipates before it reaches the floor, the thought of a pagan builder constructing this magnificent structure in antiquity will weigh heavily in my appreciation of its beauty. Andy... you really pressed my buttons. The last guy that did so was Leonard Koren with his essay/book _Wabi-Sabi: Design Techniques for..."_. That book caused me to search for what was more meaningful in Japanese aesthetics. Perhaps you've launched several of us on a new search... I propose a new subgroup for the viewingstone group... the Let's Stone Andy Club (LSAC). Perhaps we'll even recruit some new folks rather than lose valuable friends from the list as we focus on your fielding your challenges. Do you perhaps have a querulous neighbor willing to "throw the first stone" when I mail one to him... :----). Imagine being bonked by a stone from antiquity-- could give you a Goliath complex! Chris... C. Cochrane, mailto:sashai@erols.com, Richmond VA USA ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 10:17:57 PST Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca From: "Craig J. Hunt" Reply-To: "Craig J. Hunt" To: , Subject: Re: Pedigree and age Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 10:22:13 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Deb Kennedy wrote; > None of which has anything to do with the pedigree of a stone. Unless > someone out there has figured out how to breed them. (You haven't, have > you?) ;-) Yes, but gestation time is an eon...... And it take knowledge of plate tectonics to conceive. Craig J. Hunt in Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada http://www.triumf.ca/people/craig/craig.htm ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 10:28:14 PST Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca Message-ID: To: viewing_stones@triumf.ca MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Craig Coussins Reply-To: Craig Coussins Subject: Your Idea of Suiseki Date: Tue, 14 Oct 97 06:28:16 +0100 ( + ) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; X-MAPIextension=".TXT" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Readers, May I suggest that while certain people love to make mischief, it is simp= ler to ignore these people than let them derive satisfaction from seeing us all, including me appare= ntly, rise to his bait. Could we drop the question of what we believe to be age and history, or = who and where it came from in relation to the value of the Suiseki...at least for now. What I propose is this. I have read with delight Randall's excellent piec= e on concept of object and that is surely the kind of thing we like to read and indeed enjoy. I personally would like to read short stories or pieces from all the read= ers on their experiences and feelings on what they think or feel about Suiseki and to share with us = a wider understanding of life and perception. Reading Randall's words inspired me to write this to you = all as he has taught me so much in his excellent understanding. Leave the Heitzemachers, the mishchief makers, the Loki to bicker between= themselves and desist from the responses to the destructive rather than the constructive. Yours Aye and best wishes from Craig Coussins. Web Site with masses of great Info at: http://www.btinternet.com/=ACcraig.coussins/ ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 10:32:07 PST Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca Message-ID: To: viewing_stones@Triumf.CA MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Craig Coussins Reply-To: Craig Coussins Date: Tue, 14 Oct 97 06:32:00 +0100 ( + ) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; X-MAPIextension=".TXT" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I have to add Chris Cochranes piece to the kind of letter I like to read = and learn from. Yours Aye and best wishes from Craig Coussins. Web Site with masses of great Info at: http://www.btinternet.com/=ACcraig.coussins/ ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 11:25:12 PST Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca Message-ID: <199710141836.OAA04099@smtp1.erols.com> From: "Chris Cochrane" Reply-To: "Chris Cochrane" To: Subject: Re: Age and Respect Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 14:24:42 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Randall writes re' looking at viewing stones, > <...SNIP...> add into that the Navaho, the Aboriginal, the > Tarahumara way of looking at Place and the land is going to enhance it as > well. PLEASE share some of these "ways of looking at Place." And what is a Tarahumara? > ... When Navaho elders examine and explain older > blankets they seldom agree but each comment adds a nuance to the > deepness of the image. A terrific analogy. Sometimes the parts of a stone first speak to the viewer, then seem to speak to each other. In the viewer's mind order is created out of chaos as the whole reverberates with meaning. Luciano's recently posted stone grabs you with its precipice overhangs, the canyon bowl that is so like nature's in its contours, valleys/vales and inlets. Each is enjoyed separately, and the mind tries to connect the nuances and memories each evokes as well as to find meaning in the image as a whole. Felix Rivera did a grand job of expressing this process in his discussion of chaos theory and fractals. Rosenblum covered it in discussing "holes within holes" reflecting worlds within worlds. Adding "nuance to the deepness of an image" is just the sort of aesthetic that is most appealing in viewing stones, which tend to conceal beauty so that it may be re-discovered in the heart [or fractal-converting mind... :)...] of the viewer. > ... A Western > aesthetic being forged to deal with other types of stones is also emerging > not in a race war but in a sharing of universes. Very thoughtfully said, and hopefully we haven't reverted to race war... though Joe Davies may be encouraging the rest of the UK to succeed from its mother Wales... :-). Chris... C. Cochrane, mailto:sashai@erols.com, Richmond VA USA ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 12:01:53 PST Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 15:04:49 -0400 (EDT) From: Mysteries@aol.com Reply-To: Mysteries@aol.com Message-ID: <971014150123_-1897705502@emout10.mail.aol.com> To: viewing_stones@triumf.ca Subject: Re: Re: Age and Respect The Tarahumara are a Northern Mexican tribe. They like others including the ancient Peruvians are just others for whom the human meshes into the physical world as a commonalty. I was thinking today that(for those afraid or uninvolved with the spiritual hit) this is not necessarily a spiritual thing so much as philosophical. The spirituality is there if YOU want it to be. But the unity of collectors can merge at the philosophical level. The rules and regulations are not so much fascistic or regimented as they are an attempt to get at the language essentials of aesthetics. Which is why you can come into the stones from bonsai or art or raising geckos and poison frogs or weaving rugs. The stones are mirrors for our thoughts but they remain stones at the same time; impervious to us except for patina (grin). Isn't this the beauty of the whole thing.....a form of contemplation. I can't look at mountains or buttes or steppes the same way anymore...it all has become enlarged and en route to finer tuned contemplation. The stones represent and are at the same time. The ultimate might be leaving them in situ. Two paths here again collection and finding. I love these smooth ever changing labyrinths of meaning. The minute one closes doors choices are made. The more closed doors the less universal the intent. How simply complicated! This list is neither indoors nor out and all doors must be kept open! Randall ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 12:28:42 PST Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca From: "Craig J. Hunt" Reply-To: "Craig J. Hunt" To: "Andy Miksys" , , Subject: VIEWING STONE ADMIN, was Re: Saw! bit re-direct Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 12:32:56 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Andy & Jay; Andy Miksys wrote; > >With the last posting I've just realized that my previous response to Peter > >Aradi's question went directly to Peter and not to Peter and the group as > >intended. So here goes. > Jay Sinclair sinclair@online.emich.edu wrote; > It happened to me, too! There seems to be something odd about the way the > list is set up that causes this to happen. Would you please forward my > response to the list? Andy wrote; > OK - Here goes #1. What I think is happening is people are using the "reply to author" button, not the "reply to all" button on their email program. The author one just sends a reply to the author, not the list. If this isn't the case, could people let me know? Thanks! Craig J. Hunt in Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada http://www.triumf.ca/people/craig/craig.htm ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 14:02:12 PST Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca From: "Joe Davies" Reply-To: "Joe Davies" To: "Tom LaBron" , , Subject: Re: The Age Thing Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 21:59:16 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: > Now an interesting question. IF there are some beautiful stones in a > wall that is coming down and an individual got some of these stones, is the > age deemed when it was harvested for Suiseki or when they were harvested > for the wall, which by the way was about a hundred years ago. So > technically they have been out and weathering a getting a patina naturally > for a long time, is the stone a shinseki or older. Just wondering. > > Regards from Pawnee America. > > Tom La Bron I was having a little private wager with myself as to when someone would realise this. Well done Tom. Of course you are correct. The Japanese 'ageing' or 'skin' is just the usual pretencious rubbish that they put out to down anything not their own. The Jap theory runs like this...... a stone isnt a suiseki until it is at least 20+ years 'old' following collection (or harvesting). It must be placed outside to be rained upon and have the sun on it to develop the 'skin' within its patination. They know we mostly dont have stones that were harvested that long ago so their discrimination logic serves them well. Trouble is, as you have spotted, many of our stones have been harvested from locations where they have had wind, rain and sun on them for eons. Cogito ergo sum, or is that quod erat demonstrandum ? (that shows you what 6 years of Latin gives you). Joe ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 14:59:47 PST Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 15:02:15 -0700 (PDT) From: Mark Dean Reply-To: Mark Dean Subject: unsubscribe To: viewing_stones@triumf.ca Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII unsubscribe ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 15:51:19 PST Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca From: "Craig Coussins" Reply-To: "Craig Coussins" To: "Joe Davies" , "Tom LaBron" , , Subject: Re: The Age Thing Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 23:46:13 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: Perhaps we all really know what the Japanese really think and perhaps we are humoring them in order to glean information from them. Otherwise we are placing too much importance on everything Japanese based on historical values..perhaps. How many of you are Japanophiles to extreme degree or Perhaps we just like the whole Zen thing..simplicity, microcosmic meditation or exquisite things that are oriental. Perhaps..it is just that everyone with slant eyes is 'perfect' in some peoples eyes. Are observers of all things Japanese really wishing they too were born of the Floating Islands or are they simply insecure in their own ability to follow their own path with a little help from those who have experience and knowledge..perhaps, perhaps not. Yours Aye and with very best wishes Craig Coussins. and if you already have not been there, please visit my site at: http://www.btinternet.com/~craig.coussins/ or ask any major search engine for Craig Coussins and you wll find my Pages. ---------- From: Joe Davies To: Tom LaBron ; blackfly@ica.net; viewing_stones@triumf.ca Subject: Re: The Age Thing Date: 14 October 1997 21:59 > Now an interesting question. IF there are some beautiful stones in a > wall that is coming down and an individual got some of these stones, is the > age deemed when it was harvested for Suiseki or when they were harvested > for the wall, which by the way was about a hundred years ago. So > technically they have been out and weathering a getting a patina naturally > for a long time, is the stone a shinseki or older. Just wondering. > > Regards from Pawnee America. > > Tom La Bron I was having a little private wager with myself as to when someone would realise this. Well done Tom. Of course you are correct. The Japanese 'ageing' or 'skin' is just the usual pretencious rubbish that they put out to down anything not their own. The Jap theory runs like this...... a stone isnt a suiseki until it is at least 20+ years 'old' following collection (or harvesting). It must be placed outside to be rained upon and have the sun on it to develop the 'skin' within its patination. They know we mostly dont have stones that were harvested that long ago so their discrimination logic serves them well. Trouble is, as you have spotted, many of our stones have been harvested from locations where they have had wind, rain and sun on them for eons. Cogito ergo sum, or is that quod erat demonstrandum ? (that shows you what 6 years of Latin gives you). Joe ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 16:06:21 PST Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca From: "Craig Coussins" Reply-To: "Craig Coussins" To: "Craig Coussins" , "Joe Davies" , "Tom LaBron" , , Subject: Are you Japanese or are you you? Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 00:01:04 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: This should have had a different title but is a response to Joes slightly ZEN - ophobic response. Try and keep it clean guys, no hitting below the belt, spitting or scratching out of eyes and talking about eyes.. Perhaps we all really know what the Japanese really think and perhaps we are humoring them in order to glean information from them. Otherwise we are placing too much importance on everything Japanese based on historical values..perhaps. How many of you are Japanophiles to extreme degree or....Perhaps we just like the whole Zen thing..simplicity, microcosmic meditation or exquisite things that are oriental. Perhaps..it is just that everyone with slant eyes is 'perfect' in some peoples eyes. Are observers of all things Japanese really wishing they too were born of the Floating Islands or are they simply insecure in their own ability to follow their own path with a little help from those who have experience and knowledge..perhaps, perhaps not. Craig ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 17:37:02 PST Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca Message-ID: <199710150039.UAA31486@smtp3.erols.com> From: "Chris Cochrane" Reply-To: "Chris Cochrane" To: Subject: Re: The Age Thing Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 20:36:01 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi, Craig. You write, > Perhaps we all really know what the Japanese really think and perhaps we > are humoring them in order to glean information from them... <...SNIP...> After that bellicose post, AndyM and JoeD seem Japanophiles in comparison... :-) I do trust you are pulling our legs... you are pulling our legs? I hope you're pulling our legs! I hope Andy and Joe are pulling our legs-- really, I do. ... and I'm retiring to my tea hut until you say, "Uncle Kitaro!" [not really... :--)...] Chris... C. Cochrane, mailto:sashai@erols.com, Richmond VA USA ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 20:23:22 PST Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 20:26:29 -0700 (PDT) From: Lynn boyd Reply-To: Lynn boyd To: viewing_stones@triumf.ca Subject: Re: The Age Thing Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Craig and Joe, Just a cotton'pickin' minute here! My good friend, Teruko, may I introduce her? Japanse born, educated and reared, married my good other friend and I am interesting them in suiseki via this forum. There is a reason for often quoting and using the Japanese tradition to guide and that is because as scholars or students in the arts, humanities, aesthetics, psychology, et cetera, we can find a history of a country totally immersed in all aspects of their culture in aesthetic approaches. Did you know that the Japanese woman was considered to be one of their greatest aesthetic achievements, her every apparel, action and appearance subordinated to the conventions of an art? (Coomaraswamy reference) Well, if one has used that textbook as an example over a period of years it stays with one as a sort of standard of comparison. Not meaning that it is the line to follow, just that sometimes it is by comparison a line to definitely drop - thud! I can't tell you what she is saying right now - don't know her language that well, but it sounds fierce. I do know she said "GO . . .", but I don't think she is talking about the game. Lynn ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 22:45:14 PST Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: viewing_stones@triumf.ca From: Andy Miksys Reply-To: Andy Miksys Subject: Andy's Reponse to the Age Thing Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 01:48:10 -0400 Message-ID: <05481048419442@ica.net> Wow - Jeez! I'm gone for a couple of hours and you've all got your knickers in a twist. Let's all slow down, take a deep breath and remember we're talking about a bunch of rocks. This is dust - remember? Ok. I've read all the postings and I'd love to answer each one bit by bit but I'm afraid I'm a little pressed for time right now so I'll have to summarize my comments into one posting. I'd especially like to respond to Lynn - Gggrrrrrrrr! And Marco Grrrrrrrr! Just joking! Cool...Marco....Cool. I think that Peter, Randall, Tom, Bill, Joe & Luis (sorry I couldn't help myself) and I have basically had a Vulcan mind-meld here (sorry if I've missed anyone). Craig - it's ok to call me by name. You can even say rude things. I can take it. Chris - I'm not pressing any buttons of yours especially not your belly button. Garry - You asked what is my point. Good question. (And I'll try not to be rude) Craig had posted Mr. Matsuura's comments that there are five elements in determining the (and the posting was a little vague here - call it quality) of a suiseki namely, shape, quality, colour, texture and age. It turned out age = pedigree. My point was that the *aesthetic* quality of the stone cannot be enhanced by it's pedigree, or if you wish - it's provenance. There is no doubt in my mind that it's market value and indeed it desirability is enhanced with pedigree - with a lineage - a history. Appreciation of such traits lay the foundations for, as Peter poignantly labeled it..connoisseurship of suiseki. There is also no doubt in my mind that spilling over from the Japanese suiseki tradition there is an element (which I feel is built into the national psyche) of subservience or subordination to authority. (Please I don't wish to get into a debate about this - if my words don't convey the message - I know that you all know what I'm talking about - we have here a nation that just 52 years ago would crash a plane for the Emperor). Nevertheless - built into the 'age thing' or pedigree of the Japanese suiseki is 1) the history element and 2) the authority element. (Tom articulate this very nicely.) I live in a world wherein individual thought and opinion is treasured and nurtured. I would like to evaluate the suiseki (and any other piece of art) for what it IS and not 1) for what it has been and 2) for what others claim it is supposed to be. Such considerations have no room in my world , and I think (hope) I'm fairly typical in this 'radical' western outlook. But please don't get me wrong - I'm not ridiculing or denigrating anyone from acquiring or appreciating a stone with a history or for that matter a pedigree. And I'll be the last one in the world to suggest that I couldn't learn something new from someone else - including an understanding of what a good looking stone is. I'm merely pointing out that we don't have to blindly follow the Japanese subservience tradition. Recently I posted a message to Marco after he asked me for my 'deep thoughts' and I wrote citing my views on the human emotional response to an item of art vis-a-vis finding our place in the cosmos. There is also, in my view, a parallel emotional response to history. Chris and Randall wrote about it eloquently. I've certainly felt it many times. And I believe that in this discussion of suiseki that the two responses (art/history) have been, at times inadvertently linked. Let me offer this thought experiment for clarification. Consider a distant mountain view suiseki. A really really nice stone. It was once part of the Imperial collection. It is believed that Rikyu himself cracked his head on the stone when he did the deed under the old rib-cage. It survived Hiroshima, and it has a stack of letters of commendation from everybody in the know for the last couple of hundred years. Pedigree to the max. Everyone on this list would drool for this stone. It is 'the' stone of stones. Consider a second stone, molecule by molecule identical in every respect to the first, including the base, but this stone was collected by Joyca from the Eel River yesterday. (Joyca - you can check out anytime you like...but you can never leave!) For the purposes of this illustration forget any consideration of patina/skin. Both stones and their bases are absolutely identical. Place both stones - back to back - on a spinning turntable, close your eyes and give it a whirl. Where did the history go? Of course the stone didn't actually 'have' history. Do they now share the pedigree? Is it lost? Which stone is better? And most importantly - and this leads to my point - which stone emotionally moves you more? The history is something that we, the viewer, instill on the stone. Not the stone on us. History is not a quality that the stone can possess. Texture yes - history no. If a viewer is totally oblivious to the historical aspect deemed to be associated with the stone, that historical element means nothing to the viewer - he is not bringing any emotional baggage with him to the stone. On the other hand a viewer steeped in the stone's history brings lots of emotional baggage with him and the 'value' is greater for that viewer. This is not a quality intrinsic to the stone but a construct of the viewer. This quality which we 'associate' with the stone is totally detached from the aesthetic quality of the stone which has everything to do with shape, texture, presentation, colour, etc. So what do we make of Mr. Matsuura when he tells us that a stone should 'have age'? I think he's trying to impose his authority, his 'better judgment' (ie. his constructs) on us. As I wrote earlier - from this Canadian's perspective - it just doesn't fly. I hope this clarifies my point. Thanks; Andy Miksys ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 02:14:27 PST Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca From: "Craig Coussins" Reply-To: "Craig Coussins" To: "Lynn boyd" , Subject: Re: The Eyes have it. Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 10:09:38 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: Please read what I have actually said. I was berating the people that do not accept everyone. Was Joe a little out of line in tarring all Japanese people with the same brush? I was asking whether we were simply saying that everyone with slant eyes seems to be accepted as experts on everything from Bonsai and Suiseki to Laquer or Gardening. This seems to be the case when some so called Bonsai Masters arrive in the West and have nothing to teach...or so we think. The way that they are taught is sometimes too slow for our rushing childish minds and while it is also true that their are as many good Bonsai and Suiseki 'authorities' in the West that are not Japanese, Korean or Chinese, it seems that some people accept the authority of anyone that has an oriental epicanthic fold (slant eyes) over, again in some cases, their own home grown authorities. I attend many conventions and wonder what it is some of these people are supposed to be doing. In the same breath wonderful teachers and true masters like John Naka have enormous respect but some unknown nurseryman from Hokkaido is lauded as an expert PRECISELY BECAUSE HE COMES FROM JAPAN. Why is this. What Joe was saying is the rubbish clouding some of the so called truths about Suiseki is based on unsubstantiated heresay. What we are all capable off is sharing our knowledge and helping each other no matter what our race, creed, colour or eye shape. It is our nature as humans to love experts and it is in the Nature of the average human to insult these experts. This is a clear sign of insecurity and by insulting experts we are then elevated in our own little minds to becoming better than these experts......'NOT' The famous saying about anyone famous in Scotland goes like this; "Tony Blair? Him? he's nothing, I knew him when he was a wee boy at school in Edinburgh" People are also happy to denigrate for one mistake rather than laud for a lifetimes achievement. It make them feel good that the unfortunate has slipped up no matter what good things they had previously achieved. That allows us, unfortunately, to denigrate the sayings or speeches of any race or any group that does not configure into our own perception. I will finish with this thought. Accept all you hear as you would wish all to accept what you say. Yours Aye and with very best wishes Craig Coussins. and if you already have not been there, please visit my site at: http://www.btinternet.com/~craig.coussins/ or ask any major search engine for Craig Coussins and you wll find my Pages. ---------- From: Lynn boyd To: viewing_stones@triumf.ca Subject: Re: The Age Thing Date: 15 October 1997 04:26 Craig and Joe, Just a cotton'pickin' minute here! My good friend, Teruko, may I introduce her? Japanse born, educated and reared, married my good other friend and I am interesting them in suiseki via this forum. There is a reason for often quoting and using the Japanese tradition to guide and that is because as scholars or students in the arts, humanities, aesthetics, psychology, et cetera, we can find a history of a country totally immersed in all aspects of their culture in aesthetic approaches. Did you know that the Japanese woman was considered to be one of their greatest aesthetic achievements, her every apparel, action and appearance subordinated to the conventions of an art? (Coomaraswamy reference) Well, if one has used that textbook as an example over a period of years it stays with one as a sort of standard of comparison. Not meaning that it is the line to follow, just that sometimes it is by comparison a line to definitely drop - thud! I can't tell you what she is saying right now - don't know her language that well, but it sounds fierce. I do know she said "GO . . .", but I don't think she is talking about the game. Lynn ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 02:15:57 PST Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca From: "Craig Coussins" Reply-To: "Craig Coussins" To: "Chris Cochrane" , Subject: Re: Uncle Kitaro Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 10:11:16 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: Yes Chris I was pulling your legs by trying to show just how silly we can sound to each other. Yours Aye and with very best wishes Craig Coussins. and if you already have not been there, please visit my site at: http://www.btinternet.com/~craig.coussins/ or ask any major search engine for Craig Coussins and you wll find my Pages. ---------- From: Chris Cochrane To: viewing_stones@triumf.ca Subject: Re: The Age Thing Date: 15 October 1997 01:36 Hi, Craig. You write, > Perhaps we all really know what the Japanese really think and perhaps we > are humoring them in order to glean information from them... <...SNIP...> After that bellicose post, AndyM and JoeD seem Japanophiles in comparison... :-) I do trust you are pulling our legs... you are pulling our legs? I hope you're pulling our legs! I hope Andy and Joe are pulling our legs-- really, I do. ... and I'm retiring to my tea hut until you say, "Uncle Kitaro!" [not really... :--)...] Chris... C. Cochrane, mailto:sashai@erols.com, Richmond VA USA ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 02:20:19 PST Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca From: "Craig Coussins" Reply-To: "Craig Coussins" To: "Craig Coussins" , "Joe Davies" , "Tom LaBron" , , Subject: Re: Are you Japanese or are you you? Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 10:14:08 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: Meaning: Japanophiles-people that love everything Japanese Japanophobes-the opposite Just in case someone out there is taking me seriously. Craig Coussins( Scotophile) ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 05:18:50 PST Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca Message-ID: <3444B56B.753@traverse.com> Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 08:22:03 -0400 From: Deb Kennedy and Glen Johnson Reply-To: debglen@traverse.com MIME-Version: 1.0 To: viewing_stones@triumf.ca Subject: Re: Andy's Reponse to the Age Thing References: <05481048419442@ica.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Andy Miksys wrote: > Consider a distant mountain view suiseki. A really really nice stone. It was > once part of the Imperial collection. It is believed that Rikyu himself > cracked his head on the stone when he did the deed under the old rib-cage. > It survived Hiroshima, and it has a stack of letters of commendation from > everybody in the know for the last couple of hundred years. Pedigree to the > max. Everyone on this list would drool for this stone. It is 'the' stone of > stones. > > Consider a second stone, molecule by molecule identical in every respect to > the first, including the base, but this stone was collected by Joyca from > the Eel River yesterday. (Joyca - you can check out anytime you like...but > you can never leave!) > > For the purposes of this illustration forget any consideration of > patina/skin. Both stones and their bases are absolutely identical. > > Place both stones - back to back - on a spinning turntable, close your eyes > and give it a whirl. > > Where did the history go? > > Of course the stone didn't actually 'have' history. Do they now share the > pedigree? Is it lost? > > Which stone is better? > > And most importantly - and this leads to my point - which stone emotionally > moves you more? Very well illustrated, Andy. Those of us who might appreciate the history of a stone must also realize that this appreciation WILL color our views, making it more difficult to be objective about the true qualities of the stone itself. The same holds true for adhering strictly to the Japanese traditions of the art. It's perfectly fine if one wants to approach suiseki from that standpoint, but one should also be aware that this means the pleasure is derived as much, or more, from the "art" than from the stone itself. For example, I have a beautiful black stone. I have always loved this stone, but when I began to learn a little about suiseki, I thought "Darn! This is NOT a good candidate for suiseki." As I learned a bit more, I thought "If only this stone were cut in half, it would be two beautiful mountain stones--but, of course, we're not supposed to cut the stones." I have now arrived at the stage where I intend to cut the stone, and tradition be damned! The stone, in my mind, will be greatly improved, and will evoke images that it currently doesn't. (BTW, gotta love a man who quotes the Eagles in an aesthetic discussion of suiseki.) Sincerely, Deb Kennedy -- debglen@traverse.com Traverse City, MI "A conclusion is the place where you got tired thinking."--Martin H. Fischer ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 06:57:32 PST Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 10:00:41 -0400 (EDT) From: Mysteries@aol.com Reply-To: Mysteries@aol.com Message-ID: <971015095743_-92552783@emout14.mail.aol.com> To: viewing_stones@triumf.ca Subject: Re: Re: The Eyes have it. This is what I meant by race wars by the way. I don't think that was a Vulcan mind meld I particularly wanted to be a part of. I can go along with all the rebellion against the 'age' criteria but only in the sense of willingness to change something whose existence I already accept. And never not in the least in any way shape or form on the grounds of jingoism, racism or stereotype. Man, I didn't know people still used the word 'jap' and I resent it. Deeply. God knows what some would be thinking here had the stones been first collected in Africa. We have a chance to change the aesthetic and augment it but can't we do it with grace rather than manifest destiny? In reading one of the essays in the Rosenblum book I saw a discussion on how stones and the way of looking at stones changed over the years a feature at a time. New things were introduced that were NOT part of the accepted norm and then they became so. It would seem to me that there was probably resistance to this and then change meaning that there was most likely a limbo period when the new shapes were frowned upon. This is a natural process. Instead of talking about peoples bodies and genotypes why don't we suggest the changes. The fact that two Westerners can be completely different in their ideas about race shows that we have no stereotypical mindset so we can carry this one out in a dryer intellectual way just the way our ancestors have for years. (evil grin) Improvisation becomes an acceptable factor. But the abuse......yow! Its like e-mail isn't it? If you are offended by being spoken to by an unknown gardener why don't you just skip the lecture. I am sticking with this list I sense exciting possibilities here in between the grumblings. I suspect this is just a clearing of rheum..... I remember a friend of mine of mine who was into literature, art history, and music, being interviewed for an art magazine and he began quoting William Carlos Williams who apparently was frustrating his local reporters something along this line: "But Mr. Williams aren't you also a doctor?" "That too." "And a poet?" "That too." , etc. etc. What was once exclusively Asian is catching on here in the West. The "that too" mindset is the safest way to travel. But bleat, moan, bluff, growl as much as you want the roots of the Aesthetic are Eastern. That does not preclude its readiness for other input and change. Personally as a twenty and twenty first century human I need the blend. I've seen a few too many American suicide bombers myself to think there is a Western answer to the world. Ask our vet buddies about obedience and My Lai. The point being: Adapt what you need for your collecting without abuse. This list would be so much more rounded with Asian participation but hey why walk into a spit storm if you can avoid it. Good morning America, Randall ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 09:53:47 PST Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca Message-ID: <3444F50B.6899@geocities.com> Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 12:53:31 -0400 From: Matt Trahan Reply-To: matttrahan@geocities.com MIME-Version: 1.0 To: viewing_stones@triumf.ca Subject: subscribe ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 12:20:17 PST Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca From: "Craig Coussins" Reply-To: "Craig Coussins" To: , Subject: Re: Return to Suiseki land. Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 20:15:22 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: Now here at last is a man who can sock it to the people who trust too much in the wrong thing. My guides have been many and as a minority myself I am well aware of such suggestions. Well done Randall and respond further with sensible points of view. Roll out the Suiseki barrel and lets forget the 'Jingoism' and each of us return to Suiseki. Yours Aye and with very best wishes Craig Coussins. and if you already have not been there, please visit my site at: http://www.btinternet.com/~craig.coussins/ or ask any major search engine for Craig Coussins and you wll find my Pages. ---------- From: Mysteries@aol.com To: viewing_stones@triumf.ca Subject: Re: Re: The Eyes have it. Date: 15 October 1997 15:00 This is what I meant by race wars by the way. I don't think that was a Vulcan mind meld I particularly wanted to be a part of. I can go along with all the rebellion against the 'age' criteria but only in the sense of willingness to change something whose existence I already accept. And never not in the least in any way shape or form on the grounds of jingoism, racism or stereotype. Man, I didn't know people still used the word 'jap' and I resent it. Deeply. God knows what some would be thinking here had the stones been first collected in Africa. We have a chance to change the aesthetic and augment it but can't we do it with grace rather than manifest destiny? In reading one of the essays in the Rosenblum book I saw a discussion on how stones and the way of looking at stones changed over the years a feature at a time. New things were introduced that were NOT part of the accepted norm and then they became so. It would seem to me that there was probably resistance to this and then change meaning that there was most likely a limbo period when the new shapes were frowned upon. This is a natural process. Instead of talking about peoples bodies and genotypes why don't we suggest the changes. The fact that two Westerners can be completely different in their ideas about race shows that we have no stereotypical mindset so we can carry this one out in a dryer intellectual way just the way our ancestors have for years. (evil grin) Improvisation becomes an acceptable factor. But the abuse......yow! Its like e-mail isn't it? If you are offended by being spoken to by an unknown gardener why don't you just skip the lecture. I am sticking with this list I sense exciting possibilities here in between the grumblings. I suspect this is just a clearing of rheum..... I remember a friend of mine of mine who was into literature, art history, and music, being interviewed for an art magazine and he began quoting William Carlos Williams who apparently was frustrating his local reporters something along this line: "But Mr. Williams aren't you also a doctor?" "That too." "And a poet?" "That too." , etc. etc. What was once exclusively Asian is catching on here in the West. The "that too" mindset is the safest way to travel. But bleat, moan, bluff, growl as much as you want the roots of the Aesthetic are Eastern. That does not preclude its readiness for other input and change. Personally as a twenty and twenty first century human I need the blend. I've seen a few too many American suicide bombers myself to think there is a Western answer to the world. Ask our vet buddies about obedience and My Lai. The point being: Adapt what you need for your collecting without abuse. This list would be so much more rounded with Asian participation but hey why walk into a spit storm if you can avoid it. Good morning America, Randall ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 12:27:30 PST Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca From: "Craig J. Hunt" Reply-To: "Craig J. Hunt" To: "Craig Coussins" , Subject: Re: Return to Suiseki land. Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 12:31:57 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Craig Coussins wrote; > Roll out the Suiseki barrel and lets forget the 'Jingoism' and each of us > return to Suiseki. Lets not forget Scholar Stones and any other rock or stone people collect for aesthetic reasons. They are fair game for discussion too. Craig J. Hunt in Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada http://www.triumf.ca/people/craig/craig.htm ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 12:47:11 PST Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 12:50:13 -0700 (PDT) From: Lynn boyd Reply-To: Lynn boyd To: viewing_stones@triumf.ca Subject: NOTICE Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Just a thought: Have you noticed the title of this News Group? It is not _suiseki_ - it is _viewing stones_. Some of us early starters voted on a name for the group. I think the final decision was to make it as INCLUSIVE as possible - for all. Lynn (I, also, think the title was originated by one of the lads from UK for that purpose.) ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 13:58:07 PST Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca From: "Craig J. Hunt" Reply-To: "Craig J. Hunt" To: "Lynn boyd" , Subject: Re: NOTICE Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 14:02:25 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lynn boyd wrote; > Just a thought: Have you noticed the title of this > News Group? Just a technicality, this is a mail list, not a News Group. I've seen a few other people call it one as well, so I just thought I'd point it out. Craig J. Hunt in Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada http://www.triumf.ca/people/craig/craig.htm ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 14:29:48 PST Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 23:34:12 +0200 Message-ID: <199710152134.XAA32504@inrete.it> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: viewing_stones@triumf.ca From: marco favero Reply-To: marco favero Subject: Marco's Reponse to the Age Thing At 01.48 15/10/97 -0400, you wrote: >I'd especially like to respond to Lynn - Gggrrrrrrrr! >And Marco Grrrrrrrr! Wow,i see you are a bit cooled,maybe your weather?or the cold wind from Eastern? >Just joking! Cool...Marco....Cool. i'm used to tell joking even the serious things,since it can be a way to change in serious things,or almost,even the jokes:-). -good snip- >Let me offer this thought experiment for clarification. > >Consider a distant mountain view suiseki. A really really nice stone. It was >once part of the Imperial collection. It is believed that Rikyu himself >cracked his head on the stone when he did the deed under the old rib-cage. >It survived Hiroshima, and it has a stack of letters of commendation from >everybody in the know for the last couple of hundred years. Pedigree to the >max. Everyone on this list would drool for this stone. It is 'the' stone of >stones. > >Consider a second stone, molecule by molecule identical in every respect to >the first, including the base, but this stone was collected by Joyca from >the Eel River yesterday. (Joyca - you can check out anytime you like...but >you can never leave!) > >For the purposes of this illustration forget any consideration of >patina/skin. Both stones and their bases are absolutely identical. > >Place both stones - back to back - on a spinning turntable, close your eyes >and give it a whirl. > >Where did the history go? > >Of course the stone didn't actually 'have' history. Do they now share the >pedigree? Is it lost? > >Which stone is better? > >And most importantly - and this leads to my point - which stone emotionally >moves you more? i answer for you,the second because you found it. your argument apparently is quite correct,apparently. you say one stone counts as the other,surely for you it is so,but ask to Japanese people and he will answer,sorry the first,why? because in your stone it is missing _SOUL_ ,_HISTORY_,and _MEMORIES_ of a whole people and all that that those facts represent. each famous stone wheter in China or in Japan has been impassive witness of important events,and then just the fact that it survives to terrible changings of life in those emispheres gives the right mesure of its wheight:each Japanese who can admire and caress it,he will find the sense of his life and his hopes; with these remarks in mind Age has a great wheight. you can compare your stone to a kid,when you find it it is just a baby,who grows with you along many years;can you tell me if your love for him is greater when he is baby or when he is adult? Age,Andy. it is as when one finds yourself in front to Hammer codex written by Leonardo,for a profane it is an incomprehensible book,he cannot reads it,on the contrary for an expert and keen it is another speech,he provides himself of a mirror and he reads clearly what it is written:the problem in any thing are The KEYS. the keys are knowledges and understandings,who cannot or wants not to search keys will be always skeptical and preserved. whatever people bequeathed his own culture,from Greeks to Romans,from Chinese to Japanese for to quote the most important civilitations,and whatever art work, painting,sculpture or architecture,got any informations by previuos progenies, and we have seen the improvement and transformation of that art along the centuries from paintings of Palaeolithic caves untill modern art. in these cases first matter can be transformed as much as one likes,then you can see as tastes and forms change in conformity with each country. the problem for stones is totally different,because you cannot modifies its structure without to distort its meaning and look. only possibility is to show the stone in another different way. recently in my previuos post i noticed that a snoopy has been shown on slab with moss by Chiara Padrini,i have also another picture of Dobutsu-seki(animals stones)dispayed on a plexiglass trestle. each person can see in a stone whatever he wants,but mountains will be always mountains,birds always birds,island always island wheter you are western or eastern. >The history is something that we, the viewer, instill on the stone. Not the >stone on us. History is not a quality that the stone can possess. Texture >yes - history no. If a viewer is totally oblivious to the historical aspect >deemed to be associated with the stone, that historical element means >nothing to the viewer - he is not bringing any emotional baggage with him to >the stone. On the other hand a viewer steeped in the stone's history brings >lots of emotional baggage with him and the 'value' is greater for that >viewer. This is not a quality intrinsic to the stone but a construct of the >viewer. This quality which we 'associate' with the stone is totally detached >from the aesthetic quality of the stone which has everything to do with >shape, texture, presentation, colour, etc. > >So what do we make of Mr. Matsuura when he tells us that a stone should >'have age'? then leave me to quote another thought of Mr. Matsuura: "to go to collect stones,in suiseki world one says"to make TANSEKI KOO".the main purpose for Tanseki Koo would be to stay near nature for to learn to love it.Suiseki stone improves itself with to pass of TIME (Age),wheter in form, wheter in essence,or in surface.the suggestion of serenity and peace is produced by physical reaction of erosion,but for to obtain a positive result it is necessary a love feeling towards stone". >I think he's trying to impose his authority, his 'better judgment' (ie. his >constructs) on us. > >As I wrote earlier - from this Canadian's perspective - it just doesn't fly. then hear this thought of Chiara Padrini,Canadian men: "Rainbow falls on the best suiseki of world.i will walk untill to take it". >I hope this clarifies my point. i understand loud and clear,and i add my last quote from Mr Paiman,president of Indonesian suiseki association: "Suiseki lovers tend to be modest,love peace and nature and they are aware that nothing can be reached without sacrifice.one cannot cheat,cannot lie to himself and must able to accept unforeseeable fate". thanks to you.i consider close this long chapter,thank you so much to all for patience and comprehension. my best regards. marco favero@inrete.it ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 15:01:08 PST Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca From: "Craig Coussins" Reply-To: "Craig Coussins" To: "Lynn boyd" , Subject: Re: NOTICE Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 22:56:15 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: Ah but! Viewing stones is indeed a good title. But a rose by any other name? Yours Aye and with very best wishes Craig Coussins. and if you already have not been there, please visit my site at: http://www.btinternet.com/~craig.coussins/ or ask any major search engine for Craig Coussins and you wll find my Pages. ---------- From: Lynn boyd To: viewing_stones@triumf.ca Subject: NOTICE Date: 15 October 1997 20:50 Just a thought: Have you noticed the title of this News Group? It is not _suiseki_ - it is _viewing stones_. Some of us early starters voted on a name for the group. I think the final decision was to make it as INCLUSIVE as possible - for all. Lynn (I, also, think the title was originated by one of the lads from UK for that purpose.) ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 16:22:25 PST Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca From: "Garry Garcia" Reply-To: "Garry Garcia" To: "Chris Cochrane" , Subject: Re: The Age Thing Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 18:22:35 -0500 Message-ID: <01bcd9c1$382cb1e0$bf5f47cc@ggarcia.vvm.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hmmm, remember (as if it matters to some) I have an Asian Wife...with slanted eyes (imagine that!!!) Not Japanese, but Korean, but just the same. No harm, taken, yet. Garry G -----Original Message----- From: Chris Cochrane To: viewing_stones@triumf.ca Date: Tuesday, October 14, 1997 7:52 PM Subject: Re: The Age Thing >Hi, Craig. You write, >> Perhaps we all really know what the Japanese really think and perhaps we >> are humoring them in order to glean information from them... <...SNIP...> > >After that bellicose post, AndyM and JoeD seem Japanophiles in >comparison... :-) I do trust you are pulling our legs... you are pulling >our legs? I hope you're pulling our legs! I hope Andy and Joe are pulling >our legs-- really, I do. > >... and I'm retiring to my tea hut until you say, "Uncle Kitaro!" [not >really... :--)...] > >Chris... C. Cochrane, mailto:sashai@erols.com, Richmond VA USA > > ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 16:37:27 PST Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca Message-ID: <3445551B.1B3B0159@ionet.net> Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 18:43:23 -0500 From: Peter Aradi Reply-To: paradi@ionet.net MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Garry Garcia CC: Chris Cochrane , viewing_stones@triumf.ca Subject: Re: The Age Thing References: <01bcd9c1$382cb1e0$bf5f47cc@ggarcia.vvm.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Garry Garcia wrote: > > Hmmm, remember (as if it matters to some) I have an Asian Wife...with > slanted eyes (imagine that!!!) Not Japanese, but Korean, but just the same. > No harm, taken, yet. > > Garry G I don't believe I have mentioned before, but my wife is also Asian, or to be more politically correct being an American citizen, an Asian-American. She was born and educated in Japan. (Obviously she was not educated enough because she married me!!!) BTW our 33rd wedding anniversary is on October 27th. Cheers. Peter Aradi Tulsa, OK ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 18:42:44 PST Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 18:45:43 -0700 (PDT) From: Lynn boyd Reply-To: Lynn boyd To: viewing_stones@triumf.ca Subject: A TWIST ON MARCO'S THEME Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII I am as willing as Marco to see this long chapter written closed, but his post recalls something that is from a different perspective that I would like to mention because it is so seldom discussed, YET is a kernel of the whole ear. There is a psychological concept called "projection." It is so common to us all, but many are not acquainted except in a passing way with its strong role in our lives (like metaphor). It is at work in what Marco mentions and it is at the basis of aesthetic responses. When we look at our beloved we see that beloved through a projection from our own mind. We do instill those qualities and attributes that her/his slightest act may have suggested to us and then we took to our heart. The beloved is much of a projection of our own mind. (Mind you there is usually a 'hook' for that reality to rest upon) When we look at an object of art we again project our own emotional aura and thus we judge not that work in its physical nature but in its spiritual nature - _arising from our own_. - As we judge we may also be known for what we are, therefore. This does not mean that we cannot deny our own projection if we want to fight it with some kind of rationalizing. In doing so we deny our emotional response and look aside from a spiritual source to the physical, pragmatic and argue at our emotional response. It can be in the area of economics, the area of possibility (the person wanting to possess an unattainable beloved will usually find a rational reason not to expect to do so), or in the area of the items popularity with one's peers and others. This is the point where in rationalizing one proposes it to be "logic." I discover myself when I feel the nature of my response - pure emotion or spirit. Now, back to Marco's: The projection he describes of attributing to the stone the human qualities of "seeing history," living through events, etc. are projections from human minds. The projection is a reflection of the nature of that person or those people. When I hear this explanation I know what those people were like - they revered their human continuity (history), they respected the eons of earth-life, they saw imbued their own at-oneness with nature. I cannot help but feel their spirituality projected upon their stones and then respect those stones as symbolic of their humanity. The symbol is strong when recognized and respected! Does this mean that the choice of stone for me is like theirs ?? Certainly not!! My stone reflects the mountains of my roots in Oregon, the heighths I respond to and if possible the forests that are like cathedrals, and if further possible the plateaus of the high mountain deserts. These are the home of my spirit, unlike someone else's stone. So, Marco, I know exactly where you are coming from, and fully accept the spiritual aspect you respect, and I go about projecting upon my stones the projections of my spirit which may be in tune with others or may not, BUT I always will accept that the OTHER is a spiritual person too! (Unless he is in complete denial on some points, rationalizing it right out of existence, then I wonder how the art world gathered him into its spiritual arms). I state this because I think it is simply a viewpoint from psychology that is interesting. And, I do find it often suits me, though I remain always open to more clarity offered by anyone whose language I can understand. Lynn ------------ On Wed, 15 Oct 1997, marco favero wrote: (in answer to Andy M. > your argument apparently is quite correct,apparently. > you say one stone counts as the other,surely for you it is so,but ask to > Japanese people and he will answer,sorry the first,why? > because in your stone it is missing _SOUL_ ,_HISTORY_,and _MEMORIES_ of a whole people and all that that those facts represent. -------------> ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 20:15:04 PST Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca To: Craig.Coussins@btinternet.com CC: boyd@peak.org, viewing_stones@triumf.ca Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 18:57:05 +0000 Subject: Re: The Eyes have it. Message-ID: <19971015.221008.3286.2.norbalt@juno.com> References: From: norbalt@juno.com Reply-To: norbalt@juno.com Craig, It is human nature. People always have a tendency to edify someone that comes from where the it originated, weather they know anything about it or not. I have the same situation with Goldfish. Just because someone sells one that makes them an expert even though the person says they don't really know all the ins and outs or fish varieties. I have been raising and studying Goldfish for thirty years, but since I don't speak or read Chinese or any dialect, some one can say I am Chinese and speak and read etc. etc. etc. and everyone hops on board. Now this person admits that he has only kept fish and really hasn't bred them and certainly hasn't studied their origins, etc., but he is Chinese so he is the expert. It is just like us, you have a degree in ya, di, ya, di, ya, di and you don't, although this person can tie his own shoes are boil water, but this person is smarter because he has a degree. After just getting out of the Navy after 23 years of service as an enlisted person and not having a degree in anything, boy did I see that horse crap. The grass is always greener on the other side of the fence and those living over there are more knowledgable about grass. God Bless and Keep You and Yours, Have a Great 1997, Regards from Pawnee America Tom La Bron Home E-Mail: norbalt@juno.com Office E-Mail: norbal@okway.okstate.edu ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- On Wed, 15 Oct 1997 10:09:38 +0100 "Craig Coussins" writes: >Please read what I have actually said. >I was berating the people that do not accept everyone. Was Joe a >little out of line in tarring all Japanese people with the same brush? > I was asking whether we were simply saying that everyone with slant >eyes seems to be accepted as experts on everything from Bonsai and Suiseki >to Laquer or Gardening. This seems to be the case when some so called >Bonsai Masters arrive in the West and have nothing to teach...or so we think. >The way that they are taught is sometimes too slow for our rushing >childish minds and while it is also true that their are as many good Bonsai and >Suiseki 'authorities' in the West that are not Japanese, Korean or >Chinese, it seems that some people accept the authority of anyone that has an >oriental epicanthic fold (slant eyes) over, again in some cases, their >own home grown authorities. >I attend many conventions and wonder what it is some of these people >are supposed to be doing. In the same breath wonderful teachers and true >masters like John Naka have enormous respect but some unknown >nurseryman from Hokkaido is lauded as an expert PRECISELY BECAUSE HE COMES FROM JAPAN. >Why is this. >What Joe was saying is the rubbish clouding some of the so called >truths about Suiseki is based on unsubstantiated heresay. >What we are all capable off is sharing our knowledge and helping each >other no matter what our race, creed, colour or eye shape. > >It is our nature as humans to love experts and it is in the Nature of >the average human to insult these experts. This is a clear sign of >insecurity and by insulting experts we are then elevated in our own little minds >to becoming better than these experts......'NOT' > >The famous saying about anyone famous in Scotland goes like this; > "Tony Blair? Him? he's nothing, I knew him when he was a wee boy at >school in Edinburgh" > >People are also happy to denigrate for one mistake rather than laud >for a lifetimes achievement. It make them feel good that the unfortunate has >slipped up no matter what good things they had previously achieved. > >That allows us, unfortunately, to denigrate the sayings or speeches of >any race or any group that does not configure into our own perception. > >I will finish with this thought. >Accept all you hear as you would wish all to accept what you say. > >Yours Aye and with very best wishes >Craig Coussins. >and if you already have not been there, please visit my site at: >http://www.btinternet.com/~craig.coussins/ >or ask any major search engine for Craig Coussins >and you wll find my Pages. ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 23:27:42 PST Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca From: "Craig Coussins" Reply-To: "Craig Coussins" To: "Lynn boyd" , Subject: Re: The Eyes?? Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 07:23:02 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: In case you are unaware, My wife is from near Kazakstan and despite her very Occidental look she is still Oriental and what dy know...she also has almond eyes...but then again I have a fat tummy so were both even! Yours Aye and with very best wishes Craig Coussins. and if you already have not been there, please visit my site at: http://www.btinternet.com/~craig.coussins/ or ask any major search engine for Craig Coussins and you wll find my Pages. ---------- From: Lynn boyd To: viewing_stones@triumf.ca Subject: A TWIST ON MARCO'S THEME Date: 16 October 1997 02:45 I am as willing as Marco to see this long chapter written closed, but his post recalls something that is from a different perspective that I would like to mention because it is so seldom discussed, YET is a kernel of the whole ear. There is a psychological concept called "projection." It is so common to us all, but many are not acquainted except in a passing way with its strong role in our lives (like metaphor). It is at work in what Marco mentions and it is at the basis of aesthetic responses. When we look at our beloved we see that beloved through a projection from our own mind. We do instill those qualities and attributes that her/his slightest act may have suggested to us and then we took to our heart. The beloved is much of a projection of our own mind. (Mind you there is usually a 'hook' for that reality to rest upon) When we look at an object of art we again project our own emotional aura and thus we judge not that work in its physical nature but in its spiritual nature - _arising from our own_. - As we judge we may also be known for what we are, therefore. This does not mean that we cannot deny our own projection if we want to fight it with some kind of rationalizing. In doing so we deny our emotional response and look aside from a spiritual source to the physical, pragmatic and argue at our emotional response. It can be in the area of economics, the area of possibility (the person wanting to possess an unattainable beloved will usually find a rational reason not to expect to do so), or in the area of the items popularity with one's peers and others. This is the point where in rationalizing one proposes it to be "logic." I discover myself when I feel the nature of my response - pure emotion or spirit. Now, back to Marco's: The projection he describes of attributing to the stone the human qualities of "seeing history," living through events, etc. are projections from human minds. The projection is a reflection of the nature of that person or those people. When I hear this explanation I know what those people were like - they revered their human continuity (history), they respected the eons of earth-life, they saw imbued their own at-oneness with nature. I cannot help but feel their spirituality projected upon their stones and then respect those stones as symbolic of their humanity. The symbol is strong when recognized and respected! Does this mean that the choice of stone for me is like theirs ?? Certainly not!! My stone reflects the mountains of my roots in Oregon, the heighths I respond to and if possible the forests that are like cathedrals, and if further possible the plateaus of the high mountain deserts. These are the home of my spirit, unlike someone else's stone. So, Marco, I know exactly where you are coming from, and fully accept the spiritual aspect you respect, and I go about projecting upon my stones the projections of my spirit which may be in tune with others or may not, BUT I always will accept that the OTHER is a spiritual person too! (Unless he is in complete denial on some points, rationalizing it right out of existence, then I wonder how the art world gathered him into its spiritual arms). I state this because I think it is simply a viewpoint from psychology that is interesting. And, I do find it often suits me, though I remain always open to more clarity offered by anyone whose language I can understand. Lynn ------------ On Wed, 15 Oct 1997, marco favero wrote: (in answer to Andy M. > your argument apparently is quite correct,apparently. > you say one stone counts as the other,surely for you it is so,but ask to > Japanese people and he will answer,sorry the first,why? > because in your stone it is missing _SOUL_ ,_HISTORY_,and _MEMORIES_ of a whole people and all that that those facts represent. -------------> ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 04:51:56 PST Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 13:56:24 +0200 Message-ID: <199710161156.NAA29653@inrete.it> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: viewing_stones@triumf.ca From: marco favero Reply-To: marco favero Subject: Re: A TWIST ON MARCO'S THEME At 18.45 15/10/97 -0700 Lynn Boyd, you wrote: Lynn, sorry for good snips of your introspective and subtle answer: YOU HIT THE MARK :---) leave me still quote Francis Noel Babeuf(1760-1797): "dans la pensee scientifique,la meditation de l'objet par le sujet prend toujours la forme de Projet". (in scientific thoughts,meditation on object by subject takes always form of Project). > When I hear this explanation I know what those people were like - > they revered their human continuity (history), they respected the > eons of earth-life, they saw imbued their own at-oneness with > nature. I cannot help but feel their spirituality projected upon > their stones and then respect those stones as symbolic of their > humanity. The symbol is strong when recognized and respected! > > Does this mean that the choice of stone for me is like theirs ?? > Certainly not!! > My stone reflects the mountains of my roots in Oregon, the heighths > I respond to and if possible the forests that are like cathedrals, > and if further possible the plateaus of the high mountain deserts. > These are the home of my spirit, unlike someone else's stone. > > So, Marco, I know exactly where you are coming from, and fully > accept the spiritual aspect you respect, and I go about > projecting upon my stones the projections of my spirit which may > be in tune with others or may not, BUT I always will accept that > the OTHER is a spiritual person too! > (Unless he is in complete denial on some points, rationalizing > it right out of existence, then I wonder how the art world gathered > him into its spiritual arms). > > I state this because I think it is simply a viewpoint from > psychology that is interesting. And, I do find it often suits > me, though I remain always open to more clarity offered by anyone > whose language I can understand. i agree totally with you,who keeps open his mind has more possibilities to understand. you state that you don't project your stones in this way, maybe unaware you do it,leave to spent years and your acquaintance will grow little by little. Luciana Garbini says:milions of years fly away on this earth-crust always in eternal movement,brittle cortex of breach,overlapping,collapse,elevation.Our Palombini(stones of Ligurian Alps)break,consolidate itselves,cicatrize with calcite inclusions,with quarz veins and still collapse,still climb again...emerge here and there at last!it is a long story like only world history can be,in it we live that few time which it is granted to us to live and not always we are aware of that. Now this story is between my hands and it is that that i want show you:it isn't a miracle,it isn't by chance,it is the universe, it is LIFE. my best wishes marco ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 07:05:12 PST Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 10:08:19 -0400 (EDT) From: Mysteries@aol.com Reply-To: Mysteries@aol.com Message-ID: <971016100348_240594806@emout16.mail.aol.com> To: boyd@peak.org, owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca, viewing_stones@triumf.ca Subject: Re: A TWIST ON MARCO'S THEME ummm I hope the chapter really doesn't close. Because I think already it has sifted down in to vital fascinating issues. Relevant ones also. At some point a criteria is being forged out of these thoughts. The traditional canon has covered many of the stones till now. New ways of collecting and presentation are offering other viewpoints which brings it closer to what goes on in the art world and that pulls us to the stickiest situation of all: quality. As an art dealer I confront this every day of my life. The perspectives shift constantly. I also deal art that went through a lot of these same particulars: namely the work of self-taught artists. Often (true with tribal art as well) I am confronted with work that I think is aesthetically horrible (formal disaster) yet the intent and the spiritual power invested in the work is completely present. At the same same time I am presented with work that has nothing going for it. And again I am presented with work that projects genius and power on all levels. In order to judge this work (which I have to do because of my commercial involvement with it) I need to summon up many things within myself to be fair and accurate and to not miss a message no matter how subtle. Projection may play a part but I have to be better than that. I have to find what is universal. Pedigree is an afterthought. What I think we must see is that the pedigree implies someone else thought this was an important piece as well. I welcome that older voice. Pedigree is more of a mentor's voice from the past but it doesn't play a role in breaking new ground or finding new pieces except as suggestion. Back to my point. Say I want to introduce stones into my gallery as art. I am in between the artist and the public. I need to explore how much importance I give the stones as real works of art and what the connections to the stones are to their finders....their artists. In the case of historic stones that is less of a problem because I can show them as anonymous. Anonymous has a long histo ry in art and is well respected. But the newer stones..... It seems to me that after a while in any collection it picks up the living hum of its collector. I know some collections where I can see a piece and identify its owner. In working with stones there is a melding of collector-artist in the same person, isn't there? Especially given the fact that Rosenblum says the Chinese stones were actually carved more than we think. Others here are comparing the length of their saws. What this inevitably leads to is a creation of style. The individual style of the finder-artist. And we are in the process of building that right now. If I am going to present stones in an art context I have these routes to travel: historical stones, modern stones that reflect the sensibilities of their artist collectors, and, connected to the historical stones but also reflecting the sensibilities of their artist-collectors, stones put together in the Chinese or Japanese canon; none of these to me being more or less valid if they are excellent. I can love minimalism, folk art, and graffiti all at the same time. At the same time just as with any art I am going to be reviewing stones that have meaning only to the collectors. Suppose I can't see the dragon. Suppose the idea of a Snoopy (no offense) just makes me blanch because I feel it denigrates the dignity of the stone. (stay cool). I realize as well it is not the final say on the individual who shows it to me. With the traditional stones I have something to fall back on. But in order for me to thrill the public with newer stones as well I need more than just my eye. My thinking at the moment is that I show it as the work of an individual. That the stone becomes known as a work by a specific person and I show that person because the public will then become familiar with the aesthetic of that collector-artist. Am I on the right track here? Do we have to close the chapter on age when it is still an important issue? Randall ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 07:34:22 PST Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: viewing_stones@triumf.ca From: Andy Miksys Reply-To: Andy Miksys Subject: Marco's twist Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 10:37:08 -0400 Message-ID: <14370844853554@ica.net> Marco; With all due respect. I think you've missed a critical point in my argument and I implore you to revisit it. When you: >Place both stones - back to back - on a spinning turntable, close your eyes >and give it a whirl. You will loose track of which stone is which. The two stones become the same. Then I ask: >Where did the history go? > >Of course the stone didn't actually 'have' history. Do they now share the >pedigree? Is it lost? > >Which stone is better? > >And most importantly - and this leads to my point - which stone emotionally >moves you more? And you answer: "i answer for you,the second because you found it. your argument apparently is quite correct,apparently. you say one stone counts as the other,surely for you it is so,but ask to Japanese people and he will answer,sorry the first,why? because in your stone it is missing _SOUL_ ,_HISTORY_,and _MEMORIES_ of a whole people and all that that those facts represent." You see Marco it doesn't make sense to say the first or second stone, because with this thought experiment first and second don't exist anymore. The both stones are reduced to 'just stones' having only physical beauty. They are both stripped (as it were) of the soul, history and memories that you speak of. It leads directly to Lynn's point: "When we look at an object of art we again project our own emotional aura and thus we judge not that work in its physical nature but in its spiritual nature - _arising from our own_. - As we judge we may also be known for what we are, therefore." (Gee - Lynn I know your gonna hate me for suggesting that you are in agreement with me.) With all the other stuff you write - I'm in complete agreement with you. Ciao; Andy Miksys ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 07:34:36 PST Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: viewing_stones@triumf.ca From: Andy Miksys Reply-To: Andy Miksys Subject: Good Morning Randall Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 10:37:26 -0400 Message-ID: <14372604453560@ica.net> Don't even go there Randall. What may seem as racist or jingoistic attitudes - ain't. I think that you will find, amongst the participants on this list, when you scratch ever so slightly, that there lies within the participants a deep, profound respect for the oriental cultures and it's people. I would say given that suiseki is what it is and coming from where it does, would put the participants of this list light years ahead of the general public in this respect. This forum is about suiseki. Not racism nor Japan bashing. This forum is not about anybody or any person's beliefs. It is a forum of ideas. When discussing an art which comes from a strong culture as suiseki has, sometimes it is necessary to generalize about that culture to understand an aspect of the art or the prevailing attitude that is associated with it. Sometimes a word or two written by one individual is perceived as a whole world of ideas by another. As an example - a few days ago Marco took three words of mine "stupid but rich" to be an attack on a whole culture and it's history. It means nothing - this is a discussion about suiseki, not about what I think or what Marco thinks. I'm not going to beat up on Marco for doing that. I'll challenge his ideas respectfully and he will challenge mine. On a personally note, whilst everyone is baring their genealogy and genetics - I too have a passport carrying Japanese lady in my close family and "Uncle Paul" Lee is from Hong Kong. So I'm hardly going to slam my family am I? On the other hand - there is a Japanese trait which I sometimes generalize about, but can never seem to elucidate clearly. Yesterday I found this item in the current Time magazine which I will copy verbatim: <<"Japanese firms expect all employees to look the same and think the same. When you enter a company you sign away your human rights." - Hisashi Ikeda, Japanese social commentator, condemning the sacking of a truck driver because he dyed his hair.>> When this national cultural attitude needs to be addressed in a suiseki discussion how does one reference it without sounding jingoist or stereotypical? (I'll be there are people on this list who dye their hair. I'll bet there are guys on this list with an earring.) Further - you wished that we would have some oriental input in this forum - well we do. Several days ago Craig Coussins posted a message with the thoughts of Mr. Matsuura - the president of the Nippon Suiseki Federation. What more of an oriental authority could you want? And you bet we are looking at it. This 'age thing' is a discussion of word number five. Stay tuned. Thanks; Andy Miksys ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 07:56:52 PST Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 10:59:58 -0400 (EDT) From: Mysteries@aol.com Reply-To: Mysteries@aol.com Message-ID: <971016105105_173622805@emout16.mail.aol.com> To: blackfly@ica.net, owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca, viewing_stones@triumf.ca Subject: Re: Marco's twist Two old men are sitting on a turntable. One old man was a slave from the calabar region, was stolen and sold in Maryland, escaped , hired on to a ship and landed in Jamaica where he began to preach and eventually opened a small native baptist church. When the uprising came he fled to Haiti where he managed to buy a small plot of land. He studied the herbs and after a while became reknown as an herbalist. Two of his daughters died, he published a book; his first wife attempted to kill him and his second wife did some research. She found out he had a twin brother. The twin brother was a catatonic who lived quietly and happily and non-eventedly till he wound up on the turntable with his twin brother. Where is the history? (laughing) Randall ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 08:08:08 PST Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 11:11:14 -0400 (EDT) From: Mysteries@aol.com Reply-To: Mysteries@aol.com Message-ID: <971016102017_1100580653@emout06.mail.aol.com> To: Mysteries@aol.com, owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca, boyd@peak.org, viewing_stones@triumf.ca Subject: Re: Re: A TWIST ON MARCO'S THEME p.s. The reason I brought up self-taught artists is that though that type of art has been around since the caves it is only now that it is being accepted as art. Therefore I have been able to watch first-hand and participate in a field that had no acceptance and then because of the enthusiasm of its collectors and researchers became (though still controversial, accepted by the public at large. ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 08:26:57 PST Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 11:30:08 -0400 (EDT) From: ManFont@aol.com Reply-To: ManFont@aol.com Message-ID: <971016112804_-293687991@emout12.mail.aol.com> To: viewing_stones@triumf.ca Subject: Qualities of a Stone This thread and others have interested me. Here are a few random thoughts; The Quality of a Stone: Age - The criteria of twenty years (or for that matter hundreds of years) for a stone to attain quality in the presence of humans is an absurd notion. This human time frame/artiface is infinitesimal in relation to the actual creation/transformation of the stone. Artist/Collector - Viewing Stones are a form of Found Art. The selection of the stone and its method of presentation becomes the means of individual expression. An individual cannot escape the internalization of external stimulii and the restructuring of it within their existing mental constructs. A stone (and anything else for that matter) is known through yourself and is a projection. This would account for certain artist/collectors being identifiable through their stones. Universality arises out of the inescapable truth that we are all bound by our primordial shared human experience and our very body/mind makeup. Manipulation of the stone to one degree or another depends on the artist/collector and his or her sensitivity to the inherent qualities of the stone. If one wished to remain within the definable limits of Suiseki that is one way of addressing the job at hand; to reveal/accentuate the most expressiveness of the stone. This is not the only way as demonstrated in the Chinese Scholar's Stones. Aesthetic Priciples - The aesthetic principles/criteria that allow the viewer and artist to judge, whether they be conscious or unconscious, are the same for any art form. Stone Viewing must statisfy these same criteria if it is to be called an Art. I have no doubt that it is. Is it the domain of any particular culture or race? No. Sincerely, Luis Fontanills Miami, Florida --------------------- Forwarded message: Subj: Qualities of a Stone Date: 97-10-16 11:12:46 EDT From: ManFont To: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca This thread and others have interested me. Here are a few random thoughts; The Quality of a Stone: Age - The criteria of twenty years (or for that matter hundreds of years) for a stone to attain quality in the presence of humans is an absurd notion. This human time frame/artiface is infinitesimal in relation to the actual creation/transformation of the stone. Artist/Collector - Viewing Stones are a form of Found Art. The selection of the stone and its method of presentation becomes the means of individual expression. An individual cannot escape the internalization of external stimulii and the restructuring of it within their existing mental constructs. A stone (and anything else for that matter) is known through yourself and is a projection. This would account for certain artist/collectors being identifiable through their stones. Universality arises out of the inescapable truth that we are all bound by our primordial shared human experience and our very body/mind makeup. Manipulation of the stone to one degree or another depends on the artist/collector and his or her sensitivity to the inherent qualities of the stone. If one wished to remain within the definable limits of Suiseki that is one way of addressing the job at hand; to reveal/accentuate the most expressiveness of the stone. This is not the only way as demonstrated in the Chinese Scholar's Stones. Aesthetic Priciples - The aesthetic principles/criteria that allow the viewer and artist to judge, whether they be conscious or unconscious, are the same for any art form. Stone Viewing must statisfy these same criteria if it is to be called an Art. I have no doubt that it is. Is it the domain of any particular culture or race? No. Sincerely, Luis Fontanills Miami, Florida ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 09:23:27 PST Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca From: "Craig J. Hunt" Reply-To: "Craig J. Hunt" To: , CC: "Anton Nijhuis" Subject: Artists influence, was Re: A TWIST ON MARCO'S THEME Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 09:27:54 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Randall, you write; > To: boyd@peak.org; owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca; viewing_stones@triumf.ca BTW, you don't need to send emails to the owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca address. That is an email address the listserv uses to report errors, which is forwarded to me for fixing. {snip} > It seems to me that after a while in any collection it picks up the living > hum of its collector. I know some collections where I can see a piece and > identify its owner. In working with stones there is a melding of > collector-artist in the same person, isn't there? A couple of thoughts; The stand (dai, carved chunk of wood, whatever...) is certainly a creation of the artist, so the appearance of the total package (stone & stand) is influenced by that. The position, angle, rotation that the stone is displayed at is also a decision made by the artist. Both of these together on a collection of stones, may be enough that a artists style might be discernible. A short story; a friend of mine is going out with a Taiwanese woman. Recently they and a female friend of hers came over to my place to look at my bonsai & penjing (not really to that stage yet, but anyway..). I showed them the few stones I have, but haven't carved stands for. The two woman spent a long time discussing between them the best front and angle of the stones (water eroded limestone from Anton). What they decided on was quite different than what I would have chosen. What this means I'm not sure, but they both were brought up in Taiwan, so I guess their perception is quite different than mine. Craig J. Hunt in Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada http://www.triumf.ca/people/craig/craig.htm ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 10:10:21 PST Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 13:13:26 -0400 (EDT) From: Mysteries@aol.com Reply-To: Mysteries@aol.com Message-ID: <971015155448_579401035@emout19.mail.aol.com> To: boyd@peak.org, viewing_stones@triumf.ca Subject: Re: NOTICE Hmmmmm I have been using 'viewing stones' in general discussion elsewhere. It seems to work. Is this really the only place it is used? ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 11:21:42 PST Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca From: "Craig J. Hunt" Reply-To: "Craig J. Hunt" To: , CC: "Anton Nijhuis" , "Joe Davies" Subject: Viewing Stone name & other countries, was Re: NOTICE Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 11:26:09 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Randall asked; > Hmmmmm I have been using 'viewing stones' in general discussion elsewhere. > It seems to work. Is this really the only place it is used? The discussion on what to name the mail list revolved around what do you call the art of appreciation of stones & rocks for aesthetic reasons. We wanted to include; suiseki, scholars tones, tai-hu & stone aesthetics. The name "Viewing Stones" seem to include them all, and maybe some that I don't even know the name of. It was Joe Davies suggested the name to me. Maybe he will comment on where he got the name from. That brings to mind another question; Does anyone know of other cultures (other than Japan, China & Malaysia) that have a similar art? Anyone know anything about them? Differences & similarities? BTW, after 4:00pm PST today, I'll be out of town till 8:00am Oct.21, so don't start any more disagreements, okay? {Grin} (If anyone cares, I'm heading over to Vancouver Island to go visit Anton Nijhuis and go collecting, hopefully, both trees & stones. Should be a great weekend! Maybe a little damp though.) Craig J. Hunt in Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada http://www.triumf.ca/people/craig/craig.htm ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 11:59:38 PST Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca Date: Tue, 18 Mar 97 18:24:06 CST From: "Jim Zemba" Reply-To: "Jim Zemba" Message-ID: <76973.jzemba@mail.uwc.edu> To: viewing_stones@triumf.ca Subject: review ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 12:33:24 PST Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca From: "Joe Davies" Reply-To: "Joe Davies" To: "Andy Miksys" , Subject: Re: Good Morning Randall Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 20:19:03 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: > (I'll be there are people on this list who dye their hair. I'll bet there > are guys on this list with an earring.) > Andy Miksys I wish I had enough hair left to dye and my wife wont let me have an earring installed, though she has a rather tasty little pearl drop number I have my eyes on.... Joe ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 12:34:04 PST Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca From: "Joe Davies" Reply-To: "Joe Davies" To: "Craig J. Hunt" , , CC: "Anton Nijhuis" Subject: Re: Viewing Stone name & other countries, was Re: NOTICE Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 20:30:05 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: Writes Craig....... > The discussion on what to name the mail list revolved around what do you > call the art of appreciation of stones & rocks for aesthetic reasons. We > wanted to include; suiseki, scholars tones, tai-hu & stone aesthetics. The > name "Viewing Stones" seem to include them all, and maybe some that I don't > even know the name of. It was Joe Davies suggested the name to me. Maybe he > will comment on where he got the name from. > That brings to mind another question; Does anyone know of other cultures > (other than Japan, China & Malaysia) that have a similar art? Anyone know > anything about them? Differences & similarities? The term is used quite widely, although to some in the West the term Viewing Stone refers to a cut or altered stone and Suiseki to an unaltered stone. Various terms are used throughout the world e.g. Scholar's Stone in China, Aiseki in Indonesia, Suseok in Korea, Suiseki in Japan. Whilst there are certain differences in the various forms of the art in these cultures there is a general common element of the subject - found and appreciated stones. In addition, the term 'Viewing Stones' is quite desriptive of what the subject of this mail-list is about so I suggested to the 'founders' of this modest group (Craig Hunt, Lynn Boyd, Chris Cochrane) that it might serve us well. So thats a little history of how we came to name it this way. Joe ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 12:42:54 PST Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca From: "Craig J. Hunt" Reply-To: "Craig J. Hunt" To: , "Joe Davies" Subject: Re: Viewing Stone name & other countries, was Re: NOTICE Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 12:47:17 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Joe, you write; > The term is used quite widely, although to some in the West the term > Viewing Stone refers to a cut or altered stone and Suiseki to an unaltered > stone. Didn't know that.... > Various terms are used throughout the world e.g. Scholar's Stone in > China, Aiseki in Indonesia, Suseok in Korea, Suiseki in Japan. One thing that is interesting about the names above, three of them are phonetic translations of Asian words, where as the Chinese is a literal translation. Do you know the Chinese word for Scholars Stones? > Whilst there > are certain differences in the various forms of the art in these cultures Feel like discussing them? Thanks for the lesson Joe! Craig J. Hunt in Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada http://www.triumf.ca/people/craig/craig.htm ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 12:56:51 PST Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca From: "Craig J. Hunt" Reply-To: "Craig J. Hunt" To: "Joe Davies" , Subject: Re: Viewing Stone name & other countries Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 13:01:14 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Joe Davies wrote; > Various terms are used throughout the world e.g. Scholar's Stone in > China, Aiseki in Indonesia, Suseok in Korea, Suiseki in Japan. Just did a net search using Alta Vista, Open Text & Webcrawler; Aiseki comes up with nothing. Other than it looks like the Japanese word for gem. Suseok comes up with nothing. Thought it was worth a look. Craig J. Hunt in Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada http://www.triumf.ca/people/craig/craig.htm ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 13:13:09 PST Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 13:16:19 -0700 (PDT) From: Lynn boyd Reply-To: Lynn boyd To: viewing_stones@triumf.ca Subject: Re: Viewing Stone name & other countries, was Re: NOTICE Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII ATTN: JOE Please discuss the following, Joe, to any degree that you can. Know your time is now taken up a lot, but for this kind of info you have taken time to write your magazine articles and here we are, in numbers maybe as great as some subscriptions. Lynn > > > Whilst there > > are certain differences in the various forms of the art in these cultures > ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 13:15:06 PST Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca From: "Craig J. Hunt" Reply-To: "Craig J. Hunt" To: Subject: http://www.cel.sfsu.edu/msp/newsdomain/arts1.html Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 13:19:34 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Gang; Just found this article about suiseki at the Cherry Blossom Festival in San Francisco last spring. Thought you might enjoy reading it. Craig J. Hunt in Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada http://www.triumf.ca/people/craig/craig.htm ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 13:20:48 PST Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 22:25:38 +0200 Message-ID: <199710162025.WAA15763@inrete.it> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: viewing_stones@triumf.ca From: marco favero Reply-To: marco favero Subject: for Andy (was Re: Marco's twist) At 10.37 16/10/97 -0400, you wrote: >Marco; > >With all due respect. I think you've missed a critical point in my argument >and I implore you to revisit it. Andy, i couldn't resist to your kind request,i'm at your whole disposal:-). >When you: >>Place both stones - back to back - on a spinning turntable, close your eyes >>and give it a whirl. >You will loose track of which stone is which. The two stones become the same. >Then I ask: >>Where did the history go? >>Of course the stone didn't actually 'have' history. Do they now share the >>pedigree? Is it lost? >>Which stone is better? >>And most importantly - and this leads to my point - which stone emotionally >>moves you more? >And you answer: > >"i answer for you,the second because you found it. >your argument apparently is quite correct,apparently. >you say one stone counts as the other,surely for you it is so,but ask to >Japanese people and he will answer,sorry the first,why? >because in your stone it is missing _SOUL_ ,_HISTORY_,and _MEMORIES_ of a whole >people and all that that those facts represent." > >You see Marco it doesn't make sense to say the first or second stone, >because with this thought experiment first and second don't exist anymore. > >The both stones are reduced to 'just stones' having only physical beauty. >They are both stripped (as it were) of the soul, history and memories that >you speak of. Ok. this is a proof ab absurdo,if all the conditions are as you speak,you are right but... i want you become kindly angry:-),NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO,why Japanese will know without no doubt which is his stone,How? with his sense "of humour",his stone smells different form your western potatoes ketchup,hot dog and pop-corns scents :-). >With all the other stuff you write - I'm in complete agreement with you. well now we are in tune,no one other news is more pleasant than this one. thanks Andy and Ciao anche a te. take care. marco favero@inrete.it ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 14:30:42 PST Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca From: "Craig Coussins" Reply-To: "Craig Coussins" To: CC: , Subject: Re: The Eyes have it. Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 22:25:46 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: Now here is a reply that encompasses all that I have been saying, Great Tom. Yours Aye and with very best wishes Craig Coussins. and if you already have not been there, please visit my site at: http://www.btinternet.com/~craig.coussins/ or ask any major search engine for Craig Coussins and you wll find my Pages. ---------- From: norbalt@juno.com To: Craig.Coussins@btinternet.com Cc: boyd@peak.org; viewing_stones@triumf.ca Subject: Re: The Eyes have it. Date: 15 October 1997 19:57 Craig, It is human nature. People always have a tendency to edify someone that comes from where the it originated, weather they know anything about it or not. I have the same situation with Goldfish. Just because someone sells one that makes them an expert even though the person says they don't really know all the ins and outs or fish varieties. I have been raising and studying Goldfish for thirty years, but since I don't speak or read Chinese or any dialect, some one can say I am Chinese and speak and read etc. etc. etc. and everyone hops on board. Now this person admits that he has only kept fish and really hasn't bred them and certainly hasn't studied their origins, etc., but he is Chinese so he is the expert. It is just like us, you have a degree in ya, di, ya, di, ya, di and you don't, although this person can tie his own shoes are boil water, but this person is smarter because he has a degree. After just getting out of the Navy after 23 years of service as an enlisted person and not having a degree in anything, boy did I see that horse crap. The grass is always greener on the other side of the fence and those living over there are more knowledgable about grass. God Bless and Keep You and Yours, Have a Great 1997, Regards from Pawnee America Tom La Bron Home E-Mail: norbalt@juno.com Office E-Mail: norbal@okway.okstate.edu ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------ On Wed, 15 Oct 1997 10:09:38 +0100 "Craig Coussins" writes: >Please read what I have actually said. >I was berating the people that do not accept everyone. Was Joe a >little out of line in tarring all Japanese people with the same brush? > I was asking whether we were simply saying that everyone with slant >eyes seems to be accepted as experts on everything from Bonsai and Suiseki >to Laquer or Gardening. This seems to be the case when some so called >Bonsai Masters arrive in the West and have nothing to teach...or so we think. >The way that they are taught is sometimes too slow for our rushing >childish minds and while it is also true that their are as many good Bonsai and >Suiseki 'authorities' in the West that are not Japanese, Korean or >Chinese, it seems that some people accept the authority of anyone that has an >oriental epicanthic fold (slant eyes) over, again in some cases, their >own home grown authorities. >I attend many conventions and wonder what it is some of these people >are supposed to be doing. In the same breath wonderful teachers and true >masters like John Naka have enormous respect but some unknown >nurseryman from Hokkaido is lauded as an expert PRECISELY BECAUSE HE COMES FROM JAPAN. >Why is this. >What Joe was saying is the rubbish clouding some of the so called >truths about Suiseki is based on unsubstantiated heresay. >What we are all capable off is sharing our knowledge and helping each >other no matter what our race, creed, colour or eye shape. > >It is our nature as humans to love experts and it is in the Nature of >the average human to insult these experts. This is a clear sign of >insecurity and by insulting experts we are then elevated in our own little minds >to becoming better than these experts......'NOT' > >The famous saying about anyone famous in Scotland goes like this; > "Tony Blair? Him? he's nothing, I knew him when he was a wee boy at >school in Edinburgh" > >People are also happy to denigrate for one mistake rather than laud >for a lifetimes achievement. It make them feel good that the unfortunate has >slipped up no matter what good things they had previously achieved. > >That allows us, unfortunately, to denigrate the sayings or speeches of >any race or any group that does not configure into our own perception. > >I will finish with this thought. >Accept all you hear as you would wish all to accept what you say. > >Yours Aye and with very best wishes >Craig Coussins. >and if you already have not been there, please visit my site at: >http://www.btinternet.com/~craig.coussins/ >or ask any major search engine for Craig Coussins >and you wll find my Pages. ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 14:47:09 PST Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca From: "Craig Coussins" Reply-To: "Craig Coussins" To: "Craig J. Hunt" , , "Joe Davies" Subject: Re: Original name for Scholars Stones Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 22:36:04 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: Yes I do know the Chines name for Scholars Stones.... Expensive! Yours Aye and with very best wishes Craig Coussins. ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 15:49:14 PST Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca Message-ID: <34469B19.764BB17D@surfsouth.com> Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 18:54:18 -0400 From: Bill Sikes Reply-To: Bill Sikes MIME-Version: 1.0 To: viewing_stones@triumf.ca Subject: [Fwd: Artists influence, was Re: A TWIST ON MARCO'S THEME] Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------4D9D5A5B687CBB9F5187CA9D" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------4D9D5A5B687CBB9F5187CA9D Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thanks, Craig! --------------4D9D5A5B687CBB9F5187CA9D Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Return-Path: Received: from Erich.Triumf.CA (erich.Triumf.CA [142.90.100.1]) by cindy.surfsouth.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id SAA06261 for ; Thu, 16 Oct 1997 18:42:50 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199710162242.SAA06261@cindy.surfsouth.com> Received: from ipg06 by Erich.Triumf.CA (MX V4.0-1 VAX) with SMTP; Thu, 16 Oct 1997 15:39:22 PST From: "Craig J. Hunt" To: "Bill Sikes" Subject: Re: Artists influence, was Re: A TWIST ON MARCO'S THEME Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 15:43:54 -0700 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1161 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Bill; I agree! BTW, this didn't go to the list. Did you want it to? Craig ---------- > From: Bill Sikes > To: Craig J. Hunt > Subject: Re: Artists influence, was Re: A TWIST ON MARCO'S THEME > Date: Thursday, October 16, 1997 3:41 PM > > Craig J. Hunt wrote: > > > > > A short story; a friend of mine is going out with a Taiwanese woman. > > Recently they and a female friend of hers came over to my place to > > look at > > my bonsai & penjing (not really to that stage yet, but anyway..). I > > showed > > them the few stones I have, but haven't carved stands for. The two > > woman > > spent a long time discussing between them the best front and angle of > > the > > stones (water eroded limestone from Anton). What they decided on was > > quite > > different than what I would have chosen. What this means I'm not sure, > > but > > they both were brought up in Taiwan, so I guess their perception is > > quite > > different than mine. > > > > Craig J. Hunt in Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada > > http://www.triumf.ca/people/craig/craig.htm > > Geography influences culture. Culture influences thought patterns. > Thought patterns influence perceptions. Perceptions influence > thoughts. Thoughts influence culture. Culture influences geography. > Geography influences thought. Thought influences culture. Culture > influences perception. Perception influences geography. Ad infinitum. > > None of this means that the Taiwanese ladies are experts on viewing > stones; however, it does point out that language and culture cause > individuals from different countries to think in completely different > ways, even as those from the UK and the US, though both English > speaking, can think differently about the very same thing. > > -- > Bill Sikes mailto:bjra@surfsouth.com > Member, South Georgia Bonsai Club, USA USDA Zone 8 > > The Bonsai Shop & Nursery "Extraordinary by Nature" > 2061 East Oleander Avenue > Coolidge, GA 31738 1-912-346-3345 > --------------4D9D5A5B687CBB9F5187CA9D-- ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 17:05:28 PST Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca Message-ID: <199710170016.UAA14533@smtp1.erols.com> From: "Chris Cochrane" Reply-To: "Chris Cochrane" To: Subject: Chinese Scholar treasures Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 20:03:31 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The Chinese Culture Center [750 Kearny Street, Holiday Inn, 3rd floor] in San Francisco is exhibiting Chinese Scholars' Treasures from the Jizhen Zhai Collection including taihu stones from October 25th to December 14th. Hope someone will visit and report... :) Chris... C. Cochrane, mailto:sashai@erols.com, Richmond VA USA ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 19:36:01 PST Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca To: Joe.Davies@btinternet.com CC: craig@triumf.ca, Mysteries@aol.com, viewing_stones@triumf.ca, ibonsai@oberon.ark.com Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 20:32:42 +0000 Subject: Re: NOTICE Message-ID: <19971016.213645.3286.4.norbalt@juno.com> References: From: norbalt@juno.com Reply-To: norbalt@juno.com Hey Joe, Are you the Joe Davis that wrote a book on Bonsai. If you are the library I work at just bought your book. I am going to check it this weekend. God Bless and Keep You and Yours, Have a Great 1997, Regards from Pawnee America Tom La Bron Home E-Mail: norbalt@juno.com Office E-Mail: norbal@okway.okstate.edu ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- On Thu, 16 Oct 1997 20:30:05 +0100 "Joe Davies" writes: >Writes Craig....... > >> The discussion on what to name the mail list revolved around what do >you >> call the art of appreciation of stones & rocks for aesthetic >reasons. We >> wanted to include; suiseki, scholars tones, tai-hu & stone >aesthetics. >The >> name "Viewing Stones" seem to include them all, and maybe some that >I >don't >> even know the name of. It was Joe Davies suggested the name to me. >Maybe >he >> will comment on where he got the name from. > >> That brings to mind another question; Does anyone know of other >cultures >> (other than Japan, China & Malaysia) that have a similar art? >Anyone >know >> anything about them? Differences & similarities? > >The term is used quite widely, although to some in the West the term >Viewing Stone refers to a cut or altered stone and Suiseki to an >unaltered >stone. Various terms are used throughout the world e.g. Scholar's >Stone in >China, Aiseki in Indonesia, Suseok in Korea, Suiseki in Japan. Whilst >there >are certain differences in the various forms of the art in these >cultures >there is a general common element of the subject - found and >appreciated >stones. In addition, the term 'Viewing Stones' is quite desriptive of >what >the subject of this mail-list is about so I suggested to the >'founders' of >this modest group (Craig Hunt, Lynn Boyd, Chris Cochrane) that it >might >serve us well. So thats a little history of how we came to name it >this >way. > >Joe > ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 00:00:22 PST Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca From: "Joe Davies" Reply-To: "Joe Davies" To: "Craig Coussins" , "Craig J. Hunt" , Subject: Re: Original name for Scholars Stones Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 07:28:56 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: > Yes I do know the Chines name for Scholars Stones.... > Expensive! > Yours Aye and with very best wishes > Craig Coussins. Depends on your source. From an 'antique' dealer they can cost a fortune, same in Hong Kong, Singapore. Direct from a chap who runs a cool shop in Beijing they are remarkably inexpensive :-) Dont ask who/where as I dont know, I have an intermediary who gets them for me. Joe ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 00:00:29 PST Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca From: "Joe Davies" Reply-To: "Joe Davies" To: "Chris Cochrane" , Subject: Re: Chinese Scholar treasures Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 07:31:02 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: If they do visit could they possibly get me a catlog of the exhibition? If so, please mail me direct on how I will transfer the funds to them. Thanks Joe ---------- > From: Chris Cochrane > To: viewing_stones@triumf.ca > Subject: Chinese Scholar treasures > Date: 17 October 1997 01:03 > > The Chinese Culture Center [750 Kearny Street, Holiday Inn, 3rd floor] in > San Francisco is exhibiting Chinese Scholars' Treasures from the Jizhen > Zhai Collection > including taihu stones from October 25th to December 14th. Hope someone > will visit and report... :) > > Chris... C. Cochrane, mailto:sashai@erols.com, Richmond VA USA ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 00:00:39 PST Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca From: "Joe Davies" Reply-To: "Joe Davies" To: CC: , , , Subject: Re: NOTICE Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 07:34:49 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: > Hey Joe, > > Are you the Joe Davis that wrote a book on Bonsai. If you are > the library I work at just bought your book. I am going to check it this > weekend. > > God Bless and Keep You and Yours, > > Have a Great 1997, Regards from Pawnee America > Tom La Bron My name is Joe Davies, and I did write a book on Bonsai, so the answer is probably "yes". Cheers Joe ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 00:00:48 PST Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca From: "Joe Davies" Reply-To: "Joe Davies" To: "Lynn boyd" , Subject: Re: Viewing Stone name & other countries, was Re: NOTICE Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 07:48:53 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: > ATTN: JOE > > Please discuss the following, Joe, to any degree > that you can. > Know your time is now taken up a lot, but for this > kind of info you have taken time to write your magazine > articles and here we are, in numbers maybe as great as > some subscriptions. > Lynn > > > > > > Whilst there > > > are certain differences in the various forms of the art in these cultures > > The mags I write for now have good circulation (e.g. the UK monthly Bonsai magazine has 25,000+ circulation) which is why I make the efforts to supply articles. But I do get your point Lynn. As with the many interesting threads that have been running thru the list of late I feel this is a subject that cannot be handled by one individual, though I will give it a bash. There isnt published information (at least none I have found) on this, so my perceptions are exactly that... mine. If anyone has comment or input then please discuss, but I ask you to refrain from 'nit picking'. I'll try and get a reasoned and comprehensive respose out to the list this weekend. Meanwhile I had a thought (yes, I know I'll hve to go lie down and rest for a while now Craig :-).... The recent threads have some really good perceptions and observations and it would be great if we could extract the harder info into an article which I or any of the others who have web-sites could post. The hard part is extracting the info from the chat (though some of the chat IS relevant). Is there anyone out there brave enough to take our threads and condense them into single articles? I really feel we are discussing some of the aspects and nuances of the art in a way that has probably never happened before in the West, and it is this taking forwards of the subject that I originally hoped would happen when myself, Craig, Lynn and Chris started this thing up. Obviously we all need to agree that our words could be used for such a purpose, but I, for one, have no objection as my goal is take the subject forwards and widen its audience with solid info and opinion. I would do it myself but am so tied up with work commitments I havent the time at the moment, so .....any volunteers? Joe ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 05:10:39 PST Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 08:13:49 -0400 (EDT) From: ManFont@aol.com Reply-To: ManFont@aol.com Message-ID: <971017081348_1868354919@emout08.mail.aol.com> To: viewing_stones@triumf.ca Subject: Is It ART? Randall in a message dated 97-10-16 11:11:48 EDT, you write: << p.s. The reason I brought up self-taught artists is that though that type of art has been around since the caves it is only now that it is being accepted as art. Therefore I have been able to watch first-hand and participate in a field that had no acceptance and then because of the enthusiasm of its collectors and researchers became (though still controversial, accepted by the public at large. >> Randall, The so called primitive art, naive art, art of the insane, etc. has always been ART. Art is by its nature is the expression of an individual/individuals. This expression occurs separate from the public's need to accept, and in many cases the public at large never does. This does not negate the Art. van Gogh's Art was great even though in his lifetime he was not accepted. His Art did not need his paintings to sell in the tens of millions (as it does in our lifetime) to justify its quality and power as Art. If I pick up a stone and it speaks to me (figuratively ;-) and I display it to maximize this perceived quality; it is Art, though it may fall on humanities deaf ears. Sincerely, Luis Fontanills --------------------- Forwarded message: Subj: Is It ART? Date: 97-10-17 08:09:34 EDT From: ManFont To: Mysteries Randall in a message dated 97-10-16 11:11:48 EDT, you write: << p.s. The reason I brought up self-taught artists is that though that type of art has been around since the caves it is only now that it is being accepted as art. Therefore I have been able to watch first-hand and participate in a field that had no acceptance and then because of the enthusiasm of its collectors and researchers became (though still controversial, accepted by the public at large. >> Randall, The so called primitive art, naive art, art of the insane, etc. has always been ART. Art is by its nature is the expression of an individual/individuals. This expression occurs separate from the public's need to accept, and in many cases the public at large never does. This does not negate the Art. van Gogh's Art was great even though in his lifetime he was not accepted. His Art did not need his paintings to sell in the tens of millions (as it does in our lifetime) to justify its quality and power as Art. If I pick up a stone and it speaks to me (figuratively ;-) and I display it to maximize this perceived quality; it is Art, though it may fall on humanities deaf ears. Sincerely, Luis Fontanills ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 05:58:42 PST Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 09:01:53 -0400 (EDT) From: Mysteries@aol.com Reply-To: Mysteries@aol.com Message-ID: <971017090151_1700611356@emout12.mail.aol.com> To: ManFont@aol.com, owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca, viewing_stones@triumf.ca Subject: Re: Is It ART? I answered his privately not knowing it was sent to the list as well so I will answer it here. I certainly know it is art. What you say is absolutely true mins your reference to 'naive' which is a colonialistic word these days. But my letter was not about Is It Art? That was never a question. My concern and fascination is with the language we are using to speak about the stones to others. If we are indeed changing the traditions then we need to change the language as well. Thanks ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 07:35:13 PST Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: viewing_stones@triumf.ca From: Andy Miksys Reply-To: Andy Miksys Subject: Articles on webpages by Joe Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 10:38:01 -0400 Message-ID: <14380154281290@ica.net> Joe you wrote: <> Joe - with all due respect - you are the one who can separate the wheat from the chaff. <> My feelings on this can best be illustrated by the following passage: Flight of the seabirds, Scattered like lost words, Wheel to the storm and fly. Fare thee well now, Let your life proceed by it's own design. Nothing to tell now, Let the words be yours, I've done with mine. -The Grateful Dead- Cheers; Andy Miksys ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 07:35:22 PST Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: viewing_stones@triumf.ca From: Andy Miksys Reply-To: Andy Miksys Subject: Marco's earthquakes Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 10:38:09 -0400 Message-ID: <14380991481291@ica.net> Hey Marco; What's with the earthquakes? In your collecting have you by chance pulled a rock or two from near the bottom of the Ligurian Alps, setting the whole mountain system rumbling as a result? I understand some of your countrymen are getting a bit hysterical citing Nostradamus and claiming that the end of the world would be presaged by quakes "on three Fridays in a row". Seriously - Marco I hope you are not directly affected and that everything soon passes. Ciao; Andy Miksys ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 09:05:09 PST Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca Message-ID: <34478E2C.E920CDFF@ionet.net> Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 11:11:24 -0500 From: Peter Aradi Reply-To: paradi@ionet.net MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Joe Davies CC: Lynn boyd , viewing_stones@triumf.ca Subject: Re: Viewing Stone name & other countries, was Re: NOTICE References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Joe Davies wrote: > SNIP > There isnt published information (at least > none I have found) on this, so my perceptions are exactly that... mine. If > anyone has comment or input then please discuss, but I ask you to refrain > from 'nit picking'. > Joe and friends: Last summer I have run a search on the subject of bonsai/penjing and suiseki through several academic data bases. I have also pored over nearly forty years worth of volumes of a publication put out yearly by the Association of Asian Scholars, (which I am a member of,) listing all articles published in Western languages for a given period on Asia ands related subjects. The results hardly justified the effort. Perhaps the most interesting and prominent publication is by Rolf A. Stein: The World in Miniature - Container Gardens and Dwellings in Far Eastern Religious Thought. Originally published as a magazine article in Hanoi in French, it is a fairly good introduction of the subject and it pays particular attention to stones. Craig Clunas, curator of the Chinese of objects in the Victoria and Albert Museum have wrote a rather hars critique of this book. E. H. Schafer wrote Tu Wan's Stone Catalogue of Cloudy Forrest; it was published by the University of California in 1961. The above mentioned Craig Clunas wrote two very interesting books with related subjects, Fruitful Sites: Garden Culture in Ming Dynasty China, and Superfluos Things: Material Culture and Social Status in Early Modern Chaina, both of these by Cambridge University Press. There are several books by James Cahill and M. Sullivan on Chinese paintings which address the subject of the literati and their taste, also their lifestyle. A. J. Hay wrote Kernels of Energy, Bones of Earth: The Rock in Chinese Art, and an article Structure and Aesthetic Criteria of Chinese Rocks and Art. A slightly related, but fascinating study is Jing Wang's The Story of Stone: Intertextuality, Ancient Chinese Stone Lore, and the Stone Symbolism of Dream of the Red Chamber, Water Margin, and The Journey to the West. The literature is much more extensive in Japanese, perhaps the two best ones are "A Cultural History of Bonsai" and "A Sociology of Bonsai," both which deals extensively with stones. There is also a fairly extensive selection of Chinese language publications, so I was told. This particular subject, cultural comparison between Chinese and Japanese approaches to various art forms is a political bombshell in the Far East. More than a hundred years of wars and tensions between the two countries, plus the development of cultural nationalism on both sides over the last 150 years, makes objective articles hard to come by. It is therefore left to us in the West to try and objectively crituque all three sides: the Chinese roots, the Japanese ramification, and our own Western evolution of suiseki. I am eagerly looking forward to Joe Davis' article. Peter Aradi Tulsa, OK ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 09:27:42 PST Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 12:30:45 -0400 (EDT) From: ManFont@aol.com Reply-To: ManFont@aol.com Message-ID: <971017123013_782480031@emout04.mail.aol.com> To: paradi@ionet.net CC: viewing_stones@triumf.ca Subject: Re: Viewing Stone name & other countries, was Re: NOTICE Peter Aradi in a message dated 97-10-17 12:08:45 EDT, you write: << Last summer I have run a search on the subject of bonsai/penjing and suiseki through several academic data bases. I have also pored over nearly forty years worth of volumes of a publication put out yearly by the Association of Asian Scholars, (which I am a member of,) listing all articles published in Western languages for a given period on Asia ands related subjects. The results hardly justified the effort. >> --- SNIP of excellent post. ---- Peter, Thank you Peter for this in depth research and findings. Luis Fontanills ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 10:58:39 PST Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca From: "Joe Davies" Reply-To: "Joe Davies" To: CC: "Lynn boyd" , Subject: Re: Viewing Stone name & other countries, was Re: NOTICE Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 18:55:57 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: Useful info from Peter, I knew of some of these books but some are new to me. Now Peter, I warn you, everyone will ask where they can be obtained! I have managed to track down a couple in the past but they are out of print. I have a Xerox copy of Tu Wan's Stone Catalogue of Cloudy Forest with permission from the University. We need a 'librarian' for our mail-list postings, the area I alluded to in my post previously today, are you volunteering Peter?! I will try and get something done on the cultural aspects article next week, I have asked Lynn to remind me - so you can be assured I wont get any peace until I have done it!! Joe ---------- > From: Peter Aradi > To: Joe Davies > Cc: Lynn boyd ; viewing_stones@triumf.ca > Subject: Re: Viewing Stone name & other countries, was Re: NOTICE > Date: 17 October 1997 17:11 > > Joe Davies wrote: > > SNIP > > There isnt published information (at least > > none I have found) on this, so my perceptions are exactly that... mine. If > > anyone has comment or input then please discuss, but I ask you to refrain > > from 'nit picking'. > > > > Joe and friends: > > Last summer I have run a search on the subject of bonsai/penjing and > suiseki > through several academic data bases. I have also pored over nearly forty > years > worth of volumes of a publication put out yearly by the Association of > Asian > Scholars, (which I am a member of,) listing all articles published in > Western > languages for a given period on Asia ands related subjects. > The results hardly justified the effort. Perhaps the most interesting > and > prominent publication is by Rolf A. Stein: The World in Miniature - > Container > Gardens and Dwellings in Far Eastern Religious Thought. Originally > published > as a magazine article in Hanoi in French, it is a fairly good > introduction of > the subject and it pays particular attention to stones. Craig Clunas, > curator of the Chinese of objects in the Victoria and Albert Museum have > wrote > a rather hars critique of this book. > E. H. Schafer wrote Tu Wan's Stone Catalogue of Cloudy Forrest; it was > published > by the University of California in 1961. > The above mentioned Craig Clunas wrote two very interesting books with > related > subjects, Fruitful Sites: Garden Culture in Ming Dynasty China, and > Superfluos > Things: Material Culture and Social Status in Early Modern Chaina, both > of these > by Cambridge University Press. > There are several books by James Cahill and M. Sullivan on Chinese > paintings which > address the subject of the literati and their taste, also their > lifestyle. > A. J. Hay wrote Kernels of Energy, Bones of Earth: The Rock in Chinese > Art, > and an article Structure and Aesthetic Criteria of Chinese Rocks and > Art. > A slightly related, but fascinating study is Jing Wang's The Story of > Stone: > Intertextuality, Ancient Chinese Stone Lore, and the Stone Symbolism of > Dream > of the Red Chamber, Water Margin, and The Journey to the West. > The literature is much more extensive in Japanese, perhaps the two best > ones > are "A Cultural History of Bonsai" and "A Sociology of Bonsai," both > which > deals extensively with stones. > There is also a fairly extensive selection of Chinese language > publications, > so I was told. > > This particular subject, cultural comparison between Chinese and > Japanese > approaches to various art forms is a political bombshell in the Far > East. > More than a hundred years of wars and tensions between the two > countries, plus > the development of cultural nationalism on both sides over the last 150 > years, > makes objective articles hard to come by. It is therefore left to us in > the > West to try and objectively crituque all three sides: the Chinese roots, > the Japanese ramification, and our own Western evolution of suiseki. > > I am eagerly looking forward to Joe Davis' article. > > Peter Aradi > Tulsa, OK ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 11:37:28 PST Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 11:40:35 -0700 (PDT) From: Lynn boyd Reply-To: Lynn boyd To: viewing_stones@triumf.ca Subject: IS IT ART? Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII AWAITING JOE'S MATERIAL: In the meantime, awaiting Joe's response and material, the posts of Randall and Luis draw me to suggest that a clearer knowledge of not just "what is" art, but maybe a clari- fication of the terminology and language used would be a worthwhile effort. There is also a knowledge required for better understanding of how and what comprises the expressions that evolve into art. For this we need to be conversant with very basic concepts, such as the one of projection, and another is metaphor. All of these elements have been part of our discussion, but so disconnected and ill-used at times that we repeat or misunder- stand one another. I see so much alike among us - but a language inadequately used at times makes these likenesses slow to discover. Much of the repetition is due to the lack of an understood and accepted terminology, as well as to the proper ordination and subordination of the various elements of the arts. Lynn ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 12:37:55 PST Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca Message-ID: <3447C01A.5F1BA2A8@ionet.net> Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 14:44:26 -0500 From: Peter Aradi Reply-To: paradi@ionet.net MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Joe Davies CC: Lynn boyd , viewing_stones@triumf.ca Subject: Re: Viewing Stone name & other countries, was Re: NOTICE References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Joe Davies wrote: > > Useful info from Peter, I knew of some of these books but some are new to > me. Now Peter, I warn you, everyone will ask where they can be obtained! I > have managed to track down a couple in the past but they are out of print. > > I have a Xerox copy of Tu Wan's Stone Catalogue of Cloudy Forest with > permission from the University. > > We need a 'librarian' for our mail-list postings, the area I alluded to in > my post previously today, are you volunteering Peter?! > > I will try and get something done on the cultural aspects article next > week, I have asked Lynn to remind me - so you can be assured I wont get any > peace > until I have done it!! I have most of the books listed, and agree with Joe: most are out of print. I do have a bonsai/penjing/suiseki/cultural comparison bibliogarphy of some 500 entries. If there is indeed a demand, I would be willing to pare it down to suiseki and publish it for the group. Also I would be willing to volunteer as a "librarian," but would appreciate a post from Jow, Lynn, Chris, Craig, et all., re:your expectations. Cheers. Peter Aradi ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 13:05:52 PST Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca Message-ID: <3447C604.707FBB44@surfsouth.com> Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 16:09:41 -0400 From: Bill Sikes Reply-To: Bill Sikes MIME-Version: 1.0 To: viewing_stones@triumf.ca Subject: Re: Viewing Stone name & other countries, was Re: NOTICE References: <3447C01A.5F1BA2A8@ionet.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Peter Aradi wrote: > Joe Davies wrote: > > > I have most of the books listed, and agree with Joe: most are out of > print. I do have a bonsai/penjing/suiseki/cultural comparison > bibliogarphy of some 500 entries. If there is indeed a demand, I would > be willing to pare it down to suiseki and publish it for the group. > Also I would be willing to volunteer as a "librarian," but would > appreciate a post from Jow, Lynn, Chris, Craig, et all., re:your > expectations. > Cheers. > Peter Aradi Hello, Peter et al! Actually, I believe I'd be interested in all the above. While it is entirely likely that suiseki is the more intellectual pursuit of the lot, at this present time, I feel I have more of a grip on the Bonsai/Penjing aspect of The Arts Oriental. Perhaps one of the members with a website would be willing to putthe entire list up for examination. Thank you. Bill -- Bill Sikes mailto:bjra@surfsouth.com Member, South Georgia Bonsai Club, USA USDA Zone 8 The Bonsai Shop & Nursery "Extraordinary by Nature" 2061 East Oleander Avenue Coolidge, GA 31738 1-912-346-3345 ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 14:22:58 PST Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 23:27:32 +0200 Message-ID: <199710172127.XAA01088@inrete.it> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: viewing_stones@triumf.ca From: marco favero Reply-To: marco favero Subject: Re: Marco's earthquakes At 10.38 17/10/97 -0400, you wrote: >Hey Marco; > >What's with the earthquakes? from almost a month earth quakes every day and many times at day in center of Italy(Umbria and Marche area);many villages are cancelled maybe forever and people is in constant fear.i'm solid for their misfurtune and i cry with them this cruel destiny.above all Umbria is touched in their marvellous art works,the cathedral of Assisi(the upper chapel) has been saved just before the complete disaster,the tympanum of which has been caged just before collapse;if this happened all marvellous frescos of Giotto and Cimabue would have been lost forever.and for now we know not still how much of those frescos are saved. the cathedral has been built around 1234 and now dust is everywhere even in our hearts;Saint Francis of Assisi survived from then to many upseptings,but now i think those earthquakes condemn him to oblivion.i visited that church some year ago,when we gone up to its hills a deep sense of peace permeates our being and looking the sunset behind that cathedral has been a joy in our heart and our mind;i will remember that image long all my life,and i prefer to keep just this souvenir. >In your collecting have you by chance pulled a rock or two from near the >bottom of the Ligurian Alps, setting the whole mountain system rumbling as a >result? no, no earthquake in Ligurian Alps,Ligurian area is free from these phenomena fortunately.it is a very beautiful spot,sea is around these alps and there is a good mediterranean climate,you can find olive tree,quercus ilex(holm-oak) and other mediterranean trees and flowers. >I understand some of your countrymen are getting a bit hysterical citing >Nostradamus and claiming that the end of the world would be presaged by >quakes "on three Fridays in a row". ah Nostradamus and his tercets,well i disbelieve every word he says,because you can interpret his prophecies anyhow. >Seriously - Marco I hope you are not directly affected and that everything >soon passes. i live in Turin,north-west of Italy,i'm free for now from earthquakes,even if i savoured from time to time these upsetting phenomena,many thanks for your kind worry,i appreciate your attentive thoughts. Ciao, marco ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sat, 18 Oct 1997 10:30:03 PST Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19971018103609.0068cdb8@oberon.ark.com> Date: Sat, 18 Oct 1997 10:36:09 -0600 To: paradi@ionet.net From: Anton Nijhuis Reply-To: Anton Nijhuis Subject: Viewing Stone book list, was Re: Viewing Stone name & other countries CC: viewing_stones@triumf.ca References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hi Peter; This is actually Craig Hunt here, I am at Anton's collectiing trees, but keeping an eye out for rocks too. At 02:44 PM 10/17/97 -0500, Peter Aradi wrote: >I have most of the books listed, and agree with Joe: most are out of >print. >I do have a bonsai/penjing/suiseki/cultural comparison bibliogarphy of >some >500 entries. If there is indeed a demand, I would be willing to pare it >down to suiseki and publish it for the group. Also I would be willing to >volunteer as a "librarian," but would appreciate a post from Jow, Lynn, >Chris, Craig, et all., re:your expectations. If you gather a list of viewing stone related literature, I can add it to the existing list I have on my viewings stone web page. I think I have about 10 books listed so far. Is this what you ment? BTW, this mailing list is being archived on one of the computers at Triumf. I just have get some information from one of the computer system guys here at Triumf on how to move it to my web page. Have a great weekend! (I am!!) Craig Hunt presently in Campbell River, British Columbia normal email craig@triumf.ca http://www.triumf.ca/people/craig/craig.htm Anton Nijhuis Vancouver Island ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 10:35:40 PST Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca Message-ID: <199710211738.NAA06561@smtp1.erols.com> From: "Chris Cochrane" Reply-To: "Chris Cochrane" To: Subject: Treasures ofd the Chinese Scholar Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 13:34:36 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Weatherhill is publishing a text entitled _Treasures of the Chinese Scholar_ by Fang Jing Pei [176pp., ISBN 0-8348-0399-2, $34.95]. I'm hoping it will include our favorite topic, but Weatherhill hasn't added its description to their webpage, yet... :-( Chris... C. Cochrane, mailto:sashai@erols.com, Richmond VA USA ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 08:58:07 PST Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 09:01:25 -0700 (PDT) From: Lynn boyd Reply-To: Lynn boyd To: viewing_stones@triumf.ca Subject: WOOD USE FOR DAI Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Dai Carvers: I am seeking some information about woods to use when carving a dai. My first dai was a mistaken choice of wood, a mahogany, and I do not want to repeat the mistake with something else. I have now in my possession a piece of padauk and of purple heart which I know to be good woods. They neither one are large enough for the dai I want to start. There is possibly something in print that would speak directly to woods and their characteristics, but I would prefer to hear what you who have carved stands would find in your experience to be your preferences, and how you arrive at a choice for a particular stone, whether that choice is governed by your design for the dai, the stone's characteristics, its ease of carving. I suspect there are aspects to it that I do not have a thought in my head regarding. Nothing can be too basic, so would appreciate a thread with this as its subject. Include, also, any thoughts about burrs and tools. I will use a Mikita die grinder, and have a fairly good Dremel. My burrs are insufficient for much at this time. There is information to be found in some web pages, but not directed at wood choices specifically. The array of woods in some of the specialty stores is rather overwhelming, though I have to make a trip to these shops. Sales people are no help so far. Lynn boyd@peak.org ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 12:03:06 PST Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 12:05:22 -0700 (PDT) From: Herb Gustafson Reply-To: Herb Gustafson To: Lynn boyd CC: viewing_stones@triumf.ca Subject: Re; BCI Magazine Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII I mentioned to Lynn Boyd some of goings-on in Toronto. I had rather forgotten one small piece of business we had brought before the BCI Board. I agree with Lynn that it might be of interest to this forum so.... In the discussion of articles that readers wanted to see in the magazine it was pointed out that there was some rather heated response to the past Suiseki coverage, both pro and con. After much consideration, the Board voted to go back to the previous subtitle for the magazine: The BCI magazine for Bonsai and Suiseki. It was strongly felt by us that we should embrace the art rather than discard it as non-Bonsai. There was sufficient evidence that Suiseki enthusiasts were prepared to launch their own publication if relegated to a mere passing article once in a while. Look for the next issue of BCI Magazine to reflect this change. The present Board is quite pro Suiseki and other related art forms. Herb L. Gustafson Director, BCI Eugene, Oregon ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 15:37:13 PST Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca Message-ID: <199710222239.SAA07403@smtp1.erols.com> From: "Chris Cochrane" Reply-To: "Chris Cochrane" To: Subject: Re: WOOD USE FOR DAI Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 18:35:22 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lynn writes, > I am seeking some information about woods to use > when carving a dai. Traditional wood dai are dark in color. The wood is either natural in finish or lacquered with black, brown, reddish-brown or clear lacquer. [Covello/Yoshimura text, p.69]. Pine or fir are easy to work, and are acceptable when painted black. Hardwoods of traditional cabinetry are a better choice-- e.g., black walnut & cherry. [Rivera text, p' 157]. I use what is readily available at a decent price. I could pay for "claro walnut" which is imported from Italy, I think. It chosen for carving & dipped in wax to prevent it from warping or splitting. For much less, I can purchase local black walnut boards of over 8/4 ("eight-quarter" is wood retailer's lingo for a two-inch thick board) with gorgeous color and grain. Black walnut's rich grain can be enhanced with staining; a BRIGHT yellow stain is used by antique furniture fakers to attain the reddish patina of 18th century American walnut furniture. Black walnut has been so available lately that it is cheaper than Honduras mahogany-- another beautiful wood available in very wide board widths though it requires some extra work to fill the woods grain pores before finishing. Honduras mahogany is a cabinet grade wood... don't buy Philippine mahogany to make a dai, Lynn... :-). Cherry is another popular cabinet wood that finishes beautifully, but if you are using a rotating bit tool it can also burn easily... so I'd recommend using a rheostat (perhaps a foot pedaled model borrowed from a sewing machine) or use only small bits that won't be turning so fast on their outside edges. Traditional stands for displaying Chinese scholar items include metal (plain, guilded, enameled), ceramic, lacquer, stone, root and wood [Jan Stuart in Rosenblum text, p. 690]. In the Rosenblum book we see a modern bronze stand used for stone display [figure 55] as well as a root trained to grow around a treasured stone [figure 64]. Others are all carved wood examples. All of these with a natural finish are dark-- like what we would call English brown-wood furniture as opposed to often natural or painted "light" French furniture. The natural woods finishes appear to mimic the finish of the stone which they hold in terms of glossiness, I think. I also believe the most successful stands have woods that vary significantly in color from the stones which they hold-- even when line of the stone and the stand is meant to be continuous rather than the stand being visually distinct with an exaggerated lip. The distinctive white taihu stones are generally shown on a stand of light wood that has been stained dark with a flat finish-- the finish of these stones also appears "flat" in the book though you have explained how many actually have a polish resembling marble. I can hardly wait to see these for myself!!! Traditional stone aesthetics aside, I think Joe Davies use of olive wood which was carved to show a surface of dark concentric circles on a light base is fabulous . It looks like English elm... :-)... only much more finely grained, and I guess Joe couldn't resist symbolically planting a little piece of China on an English icon. What is grand is how the stone and stand speak to each other... one with its surface texture and one with its surface pattern. Reminds me of the Frick museum in NYC where a pre-Coptic Egyptian funerary item with a distinctive color is paired with an Impressionist painting including just-the-same color/shade/hue. > I have now in my possession a piece of padauk and of > purple heart which I know to be good woods. Paduak is beautiful and easily worked. Woodturners tell me that purpleheart chips terribly on its end grain, so beware. Purpleheart also varies tremendously in the quality of its color and is much richer when dark. > Nothing can be too basic, so would appreciate a thread > with this as its subject. Include, also, any thoughts about > burrs and tools. I will use a Mikita die grinder, and have > a fairly good Dremel. The Dremel will be overpowered by the task, but can suffice if you do a close job of rough cutting. When it gets hot, set it down and let it cool before the motor burns out. The Makita is both powerful and a rapid cutter. I'd recommend a rheostat (see above). Tungsten carbide burrs are best in my opinion for quickly removing wood yet leaving a relatively smooth finish-- especially the new Foredom Typhoon bits (I'd recommend the coarse over the fine for most of your designing as opposed to just enhancing the finish). > ...The array of woods in some of the specialty stores is rather > overwhelming, though I have to make a trip to these shops. I totally agree. I must admit that I am intrigued with a few exotic woods just because they offer something so different from the usual brown-woods. Redheart, for example, is very yellow and I think would be a stunning contrast (if not down-right garish) holding a black stone. I've seen mesquite boards with a meandering grain that might rival Joe's olive wood... though its hard to predict what you'll find on the rough-cut side of a board that will be displayed on the finished stand... :-) Hope this helps, Lynn. Much of it has been noted before, I think. Chris... C. Cochrane, mailto:sashai@erols.com, Richmond VA USA ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 16:38:18 PST Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19971022184021.007c4920@mailhost.iAmerica.net> Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 18:40:21 -0500 To: viewing_stones@triumf.ca From: Glen Miller Reply-To: Glen Miller Subject: Re: WOOD USE FOR DAI MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 09:01 AM 10/22/97 -0700, you wrote: > > Dai Carvers: > > I am seeking some information about woods to use > when carving a dai. > My first dai was a mistaken choice of wood, a > mahogany, and I do not want to repeat the mistake with > something else. > I have now in my possession a piece of padauk and of > purple heart which I know to be good woods. > They neither one are large enough for the dai I want > to start. > There is possibly something in print that would speak > directly to woods and their characteristics, but I would > prefer to hear what you who have carved stands would find > in your experience to be your preferences, and how you arrive > at a choice for a particular stone, whether that choice is > governed by your design for the dai, the stone's characteristics, > its ease of carving. I suspect there are aspects to it > that I do not have a thought in my head regarding. > > Nothing can be too basic, so would appreciate a thread > with this as its subject. Include, also, any thoughts about > burrs and tools. I will use a Mikita die grinder, and have > a fairly good Dremel. My burrs are insufficient for much > at this time. > There is information to be found in some web pages, but > not directed at wood choices specifically. The array of woods > in some of the specialty stores is rather overwhelming, though > I have to make a trip to these shops. Sales people are no help > so far. > Lynn > boyd@peak.org > > >Hello Lynn, Glen Miller here and this is definitely good subject. To answer you first question. Here is an excellent publication with pictures even, Beautiful Woods, published by (Frank) Paxton Lumber Company. It is only sold in these outlets for $7.95US. There are many outlets around the country, and since I am not sure of where you are and there is no 800 number I will list the one here where I am. Tulsa, Oklahoma 918-665-2411. The Rag (thats printer talk) is pretty darn good for people like us. It not only lists about 300 exotic woods but gives the reader, other common names, botanical name, color, density, texture, grain, ease in working, and principal source (location where grown). It is my personal opinion that the wood color must coordinate or compliment the stone. The 2 woods you mentioned are excellent choices. The Paduax will be reddish orange when finished in a natural oil and then sealed with a wax. It is easy to work compared to Purple Heart. Of course if you are using a Router almost every wood is easy. Purple Heart will be a deep dark rich violet when finished with natural oil and sealed. Another wood to try is Cocobolo, this is one of the most beautiful woods I have ever seen, but be careful of what stone you want to place on it. The stone must capture the eye and not the stand. Cocobolo is used primarily for veneer. You should also try Bubinga, African Rosewood, it is also a lot like Cocobolo. Black Walnut is also used a lot, it will have dark grain with lite grain intermixed. It will probably be the least expensive wood to use and still get a great stand. Look at some Jatoba, as well, and look, and I mean only look at Ebony. It is sold by weight as well as board feet and it can get very expensive. One board foot will run about $80. Board foot is 1 inch thick by 12 inch wide by 12 inch long. I hope some of this helps. Glen Miller ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 22:48:48 PST Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca From: "Joe Davies" Reply-To: "Joe Davies" To: "Lynn boyd" , Subject: Re: WOOD USE FOR DAI Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 20:01:58 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: My thoughts on Lynn's requests:- - In general dark hued woods work best with most any tonal range of stones, from the light Taihu thru the jet-black nephrite. - Remember you are mostlly going to see the edge grain of the wood as the upper area of the wood is covered by the stone, so attractive grain is of less importance. - Close grained woods work best, the more open woods show the pores on the edge grain. - Always best to find the best 'front' of your chosen piece of wood to marry with the 'front' of the stone. - Use stains if expedient, but they arent an ideal solution I feel. - Denser, harder woods generally are best suited but they are more difficult to work. - Ive tried around 30 woods, my preferences are as follows:- Easiest to carve are Lime and Poplar, both fairly cheap and readily available here in the UK, but both very light and need staining. I used Poplar for my 'Ghost' stone as I couldnt find any other wood in our shops large enough. I recommend both these woods especially for ones first attempts. They cut clean, are easy to sand/finish and dont warp or crack much. Ideally I now use Padauk, the best of all for me. Medium hardness, but a gorgeous close grain and colour to die for. Next I like Puple heart which is immensely hard, Ebony, also hard and nigh on impossible to obtain, Rosewood - same applies as Ebony. I good pragmattic solution wood is American Black Walnut which I understand is readily available and fairly cheap in the USA (but not in the UK). I have used it a few times and its pretty good but a little open grained (though that may just have been the pieces available here). - A few woods are poisonous and give off irritating dust so check with your timber supplier - I never use varnishes, just an oil and/or wax - a dullish matt sheen finish works best of all. - There is no substiture for commitment to the finishing process, using various grades of sandpaper down to ultra-fine, then wire wool (also extra fine grade). - Use whatever tools come to hand. I have found the tools less important than the tool between the ears. - Whatever method or wood you choose I have found that some study of finished examples gives inspiration and ideas. Joe > Dai Carvers: > > I am seeking some information about woods to use > when carving a dai. > My first dai was a mistaken choice of wood, a > mahogany, and I do not want to repeat the mistake with > something else. > I have now in my possession a piece of padauk and of > purple heart which I know to be good woods. > They neither one are large enough for the dai I want > to start. > There is possibly something in print that would speak > directly to woods and their characteristics, but I would > prefer to hear what you who have carved stands would find > in your experience to be your preferences, and how you arrive > at a choice for a particular stone, whether that choice is > governed by your design for the dai, the stone's characteristics, > its ease of carving. I suspect there are aspects to it > that I do not have a thought in my head regarding. > > Nothing can be too basic, so would appreciate a thread > with this as its subject. Include, also, any thoughts about > burrs and tools. I will use a Mikita die grinder, and have > a fairly good Dremel. My burrs are insufficient for much > at this time. > There is information to be found in some web pages, but > not directed at wood choices specifically. The array of woods > in some of the specialty stores is rather overwhelming, though > I have to make a trip to these shops. Sales people are no help > so far. > Lynn > boyd@peak.org > ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 11:06:50 PST Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca Message-ID: <199710231810.OAA01295@smtp3.erols.com> From: "Chris Cochrane" Reply-To: "Chris Cochrane" To: , Subject: Fw: Treasures of the Chinese Scholar Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 14:06:03 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thanks to John Abrahams of Weatherhill, Inc. publications in response to my query on their recent book. I highly recommend Weatherhill's service... they sent a copy of Felix Rivera's _Suiseki_ book to Italy for me, it arrived in 10 days, and the postage was less than $1.50! See their web page at for a wide variety of Asian oriented publications. John writes, > From: Weath1212@aol.com > Subject: Treasures of the Chinese Scholar > > Thanks for your interest in Treasures of the Chinese Scholar, which is > indeed currently available. Should you wish to order it, simply call our > toll-free number, 1(800) 437-7840. There is an operator to take your call > from 9 to 5pm eastern time. > > Here is some information about the book: > > This important new work presents the most detailed and illuminating > commentary available in English on the craftsmanship and motifs of the > implements associated with the Chinese scholar's studio. These > "treasures"--including brushes, inkstones, water droppers, toggles, > figurines, and scholar's rocks--embody the shared wisdom, traditions, and > values of the Chinese literati who governed China for more than two > millennia. An understanding of the symbolism with which these objects are so > artfully embellished is crucial for an understanding of classical Chinese > civilization, and the pieces themselves stand alone brilliantly as objects of > asthetic interest. > > Prefaced with four brief essays by noted authorities, the collection is > presented in five thematically grouped sections: ink and brush; animal > motifs; figure portrayal; nature symbolism and natural materials; and related > scholar objects. These are illustrated with more than 160 color photographs > of pieces selected from the over 300 in the Ji Zhen Zhai collection of > scholar's studio objects owned by the author, as well as from other noted > museum collections. > > Poems and inscriptions on all pieces are translated and photographs of > signatures and other important details are provided. These, together with > specifications of the pieces, a bibliography, glossary, and index, make > Treasures of the Chinese Scholars an invaluable reference for the collector, > as well as a breathtaking volume for those interested in Chinese art and > culture. > > 176 pp., 10" x 10.5" > 160 full-color illustrations > 0-8348-0399-2 > $34.95 Nice summary. Thanks, John. > Please let me know should you have further questions or concerns. Gosh, John, this book is a companion to the Jizhen Zhai collection being displayed in San Francisco's Chinese Culture Center from Oct 25 to Dec 14. Do you know if the collection is scheduled to be displayed elsewhere? We would all appreciate Weatherhill letting us know when new texts dealing with viewing stones (suiseki, scholar's stones, aiseki, suseok et al.) or related aesthetics are published. Thanks, again, John. Best wishes, Chris... C. Cochrane, mailto:sashai@erols.com, Richmond VA USA ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 11:24:54 PST Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca From: "Craig J. Hunt" Reply-To: "Craig J. Hunt" To: "Chris Cochrane" , , Subject: Re: Treasures of the Chinese Scholar Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 11:29:45 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Chris Cochrane wrote; > Gosh, John, this book is a companion to the Jizhen Zhai collection being > displayed in San Francisco's Chinese Culture Center from Oct 25 to Dec 14. >Do you know if the collection is scheduled to be displayed elsewhere? According to; http://www.weatherhill.com/bin/html_web_store.cgi?page=events.html&cart_id=4 412841.5980 Treasures of the Chinese Scholar October 25, 1997 through the end of January, 1998 Chinese Cultural Center 750 Kearny San Francisco, CA 94108 (415) 986-1822 March 14, 1998 through mid-June The University Museum of Archaeology and Anthropology University of Pennsylvania 33rd & Spruce Sts. Philadelphia, PA 19104 (215) 898-4000 The dates for the S.F. show are different than what Chris wrote above. It looks like the show is making it to your part of the world, Chris. Craig J. Hunt in Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada http://www.triumf.ca/people/craig/craig.htm ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 11:33:37 PST Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca Message-ID: <344FB517.7870@sheltonbbs.com> Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 13:35:35 -0700 From: Denny Nolan Reply-To: dnolan@sheltonbbs.com MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Joe Davies CC: "Craig J. Hunt" , Mysteries@aol.com, viewing_stones@triumf.ca, Anton Nijhuis Subject: Re: Viewing Stone name & other countries, was Re: NOTICE References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Joe Davies wrote: > The term is used quite widely, although to some in the West the term > Viewing Stone refers to a cut or altered stone and Suiseki to an unaltered stone. I have been following the group discussions for some time now and feel it's time for me to offer some comments. Although I am yet preparing my own in-depth thoughts on the subject to be posted later, I now have one brief point of view and question for the group. There are several views on whether a stone should/could/may or might be altered and still be considered or called Suiseki. Speaking for myself, I appreciate that mothernature creates the "Art" and allows me to enjoy her works and sometimes bring it back into my home. With that said and for that reason I do not alter my stones. I simply prefer to call such collected stones "Stone Art" or "Rock Art." I then categories them as either "Altered or UnAltered." As already stated, I prefer the "UnAltered" as it allows me to more appreciate the work of nature in all her beauty. However, I can also enjoy and appreciate the Altered Stone Art as it allows me to appreciate the beauty that can be created through human intervention. No pictures of my collection for my Page yet, but should be soon. I also think that "Viewing Stones" is a great way to refer to this Art, thereby I agree that it was the best name for this discussion group. My question to the group is: I have recently been reviewing the "Chinese Scholars Rocks" from "Worlds Within Worlds" and have placed this fantastic collection of Art in my "Altered" category. Are these still considered, in most authoritative circles, to be Suiseki? The main thing that attracts the value of this collection, I believe, is simply "Age" with the understanding that nither the Artist work nor the stones could ever be replaced. These are true examples of human intervention, but can still be appreciated as "Art." Almost everyone in Bonsai circles has heard many times, "Bonsai means - 'Tree in a Pot'" Is there a similar translation for "Suiseki?" May all your stones be priceless... http://www.sheltonbbs.com/~dnolan Mr Denny ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 12:11:04 PST Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca Message-ID: <2.2.32.19971023191327.00688c70@mailhost.fyi.sas.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 15:13:27 -0400 To: viewing_stones@triumf.ca From: Hilton Freed Reply-To: Hilton Freed Subject: Re: Viewing Stone name & other countries, was Re: NOTICE The Chinese Scholar Rocks are not Suiseki because they are the Chinese version of the art form and have their own variation of it. Altering the rock is part of that culture's expression of its art. Suiseki is Japan's art form and the rocks are not altered. Sincerely, Hilton Freed Information Specialist 919-677-8000 ext. 6044 sashdf@unx.sas.com fax: 919-677-4444 For on-line information on the World Wide Web: click On --> http://www.sas.com ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 12:32:55 PST Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca Message-ID: <199710231936.PAA17725@smtp3.erols.com> From: "Chris Cochrane" Reply-To: "Chris Cochrane" To: CC: , Subject: Re: Treasures of the Chinese Scholar Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 15:32:16 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Craig writes, > ... the Jizhen Zhai collection being displayed in an exhibit: ... > > Treasures of the Chinese Scholar > > October 25, 1997 through the end of January, 1998 > Chinese Cultural Center > 750 Kearny > San Francisco, CA 94108 > (415) 986-1822 > > March 14, 1998 through mid-June > The University Museum of Archaeology and Anthropology > University of Pennsylvania > 33rd & Spruce Sts. > Philadelphia, PA 19104 > (215) 898-4000 I'd love to visit with other viewing stone enthusiasts. Anybody willing to make plans for a visit to Philadephia... how about Jim Hayes? Are others going to the San Francisco show... how about Felix Rivera & John Quinn? Chris... C. Cochrane, mailto:sashai@erols.com, Richmond VA USA ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 15:12:14 PST Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca Message-ID: <344FCD5F.3092AF70@ionet.net> Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 17:19:11 -0500 From: Peter Aradi Reply-To: paradi@ionet.net MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Chris Cochrane CC: viewing_stones@triumf.ca, NAVSS@juno.com, FelixR@ix.netcom.com Subject: Re: Treasures of the Chinese Scholar References: <199710231936.PAA17725@smtp3.erols.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Chris Cochrane wrote: > > > I'd love to visit with other viewing stone enthusiasts. Anybody willing to > make plans for a visit to Philadephia... how about Jim Hayes? Are others > going to the San Francisco show... how about Felix Rivera & John Quinn? > I am planning to visit the show in early December. I will be in Sacramento and will drive down to SF to see it. Have you set a date yet? Cheers Peter Aradi Tulsa, OK ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 15:43:07 PST Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca From: "Craig J. Hunt" Reply-To: "Craig J. Hunt" To: Subject: Stones & Islam Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 15:47:38 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Gang; I was looking around the net and found this page; http://qibla.msa.upenn.edu/alim_online/bukhari/sb5_34.htm Which says in part; "Sahih Bukhari Hadith Book 5 Hadith From Number 661 661) Narrated Abu Raja Al-Utaridi: We used to worship stones, and when we found a better stone than the first one, we would throw the first one and take the latter, but if we could not get a stone then we would collect some earth (i.e. soil) and then bring a sheep and milk that sheep over it, and perform the Tawaf around it." Apparently stones are worshipped in Islam. Does anyone know anything about this? I just found it interesting. Craig J. Hunt in Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada http://www.triumf.ca/people/craig/craig.htm ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 16:13:04 PST Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca From: "Craig J. Hunt" Reply-To: "Craig J. Hunt" To: Subject: More on cleaning stones Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 16:17:58 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Gang; Here is a detailed page on using oxalic acid to clean quartz crystals; http://www.eyesoftime.com/sos/cleaning.htm Very detailed instructions...... Craig J. Hunt in Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada http://www.triumf.ca/people/craig/craig.htm ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 17:40:36 PST Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca From: "Garry Garcia" Reply-To: "Garry Garcia" To: "Joe Davies" , "Lynn boyd" , Subject: Re: WOOD USE FOR DAI Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 19:40:52 -0500 Message-ID: <01bce015$7b039a60$629083d0@ggarcia.vvm.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Yes, I totally agree with Joe, if you can obtain a nice piece of Padauk it is beautiful, works easily, naturally dark, requires no stain, and ages very nicely. If you find a good source let me know, I would really like to obtain a few good cuts. The Walnut is a good second choice in America. Garry -----Original Message----- From: Joe Davies To: Lynn boyd ; viewing_stones@triumf.ca Date: Thursday, October 23, 1997 12:53 AM Subject: Re: WOOD USE FOR DAI >My thoughts on Lynn's requests:- > >- In general dark hued woods work best with most any tonal range of stones, >from the light Taihu thru the jet-black nephrite. > >- Remember you are mostlly going to see the edge grain of the wood as the >upper area of the wood is covered by the stone, so attractive grain is of >less importance. > >- Close grained woods work best, the more open woods show the pores on the >edge grain. > >- Always best to find the best 'front' of your chosen piece of wood to >marry with the 'front' of the stone. > >- Use stains if expedient, but they arent an ideal solution I feel. > >- Denser, harder woods generally are best suited but they are more >difficult to work. > >- Ive tried around 30 woods, my preferences are as follows:- > >Easiest to carve are Lime and Poplar, both fairly cheap and readily >available here in the UK, but both very light and need staining. I used >Poplar for my 'Ghost' stone as I couldnt find any other wood in our shops >large enough. I recommend both these woods especially for ones first >attempts. They cut clean, are easy to sand/finish and dont warp or crack >much. > >Ideally I now use Padauk, the best of all for me. Medium hardness, but a >gorgeous close grain and colour to die for. Next I like Puple heart which >is immensely hard, Ebony, also hard and nigh on impossible to obtain, >Rosewood - same applies as Ebony. > >I good pragmattic solution wood is American Black Walnut which I understand >is readily available and fairly cheap in the USA (but not in the UK). I >have used it a few times and its pretty good but a little open grained >(though that may just have been the pieces available here). > >- A few woods are poisonous and give off irritating dust so check with your >timber supplier > >- I never use varnishes, just an oil and/or wax - a dullish matt sheen >finish works best of all. > >- There is no substiture for commitment to the finishing process, using >various grades of sandpaper down to ultra-fine, then wire wool (also extra >fine grade). > >- Use whatever tools come to hand. I have found the tools less important >than the tool between the ears. > >- Whatever method or wood you choose I have found that some study of >finished examples gives inspiration and ideas. > >Joe > > > >> Dai Carvers: >> >> I am seeking some information about woods to use >> when carving a dai. >> My first dai was a mistaken choice of wood, a >> mahogany, and I do not want to repeat the mistake with >> something else. >> I have now in my possession a piece of padauk and of >> purple heart which I know to be good woods. >> They neither one are large enough for the dai I want >> to start. >> There is possibly something in print that would speak >> directly to woods and their characteristics, but I would >> prefer to hear what you who have carved stands would find >> in your experience to be your preferences, and how you arrive >> at a choice for a particular stone, whether that choice is >> governed by your design for the dai, the stone's characteristics, >> its ease of carving. I suspect there are aspects to it >> that I do not have a thought in my head regarding. >> >> Nothing can be too basic, so would appreciate a thread >> with this as its subject. Include, also, any thoughts about >> burrs and tools. I will use a Mikita die grinder, and have >> a fairly good Dremel. My burrs are insufficient for much >> at this time. >> There is information to be found in some web pages, but >> not directed at wood choices specifically. The array of woods >> in some of the specialty stores is rather overwhelming, though >> I have to make a trip to these shops. Sales people are no help >> so far. >> Lynn >> boyd@peak.org >> > ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 18:20:19 PST Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca From: "Garry Garcia" Reply-To: "Garry Garcia" To: "Garry Garcia" , Subject: New Stone on site Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 20:20:34 -0500 Message-ID: <01bce01b$0708fe60$629083d0@ggarcia.vvm.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi everyone, Just received a very nice picture of a Viewing Stone from Clay Gratz, which I posted in the Collectors Gallery, on my site, take a look when you have a free moment. It is a landscape stone, distant mountain, displayed in a Suiban. URL: http://www.vvm.com/~ggarcia Sincerely Garry Garcia ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 19:44:12 PST Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca To: craig@triumf.ca CC: viewing_stones@triumf.ca Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 19:13:00 +0000 Subject: Re: Stones & Islam Message-ID: <19971023.213445.3286.2.norbalt@juno.com> References: <199710232259.SAAAA25900@mx1.boston.juno.com> From: norbalt@juno.com Reply-To: norbalt@juno.com Craig, Will take a look at the web site tomorrow when I get to work, but in many religions, including ancient Islam Rocks have been venerated. The rocks themselves were not worshiped just venerated and held as being something special and a link to the divine. Didn't you ever see "Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom?" The movie conjures up the sect of the Tuggies, from which it is based, except for some of the Hollywood props like the statue with the arms which is loosely based on a representation of the God that they followed, but in the movie the story circles around the possession of three scared stones, one of which, is stolen from a village, and is how Professor Jones gets involved. Islam in it early institution venerated Stones because of its association with some thing or some one. Though this association with things has since lost favor, there is still one last vestige and that is the rock that Mohammed stood on when he was taken up into heaven. This rock is the rock around which the Dome of the Rock is built in Jerusalem, which is also the place where Solomon's temple was built and later Herod's Temple. God Bless and Keep You and Yours, Have a Great 1997, Regards from Pawnee America Tom La Bron Home E-Mail: norbalt@juno.com Office E-Mail: norbal@okway.okstate.edu ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- On Thu, 23 Oct 1997 15:47:38 -0700 "Craig J. Hunt" writes: >Hi Gang; > >I was looking around the net and found this page; > >http://qibla.msa.upenn.edu/alim_online/bukhari/sb5_34.htm > >Which says in part; > >"Sahih Bukhari Hadith >Book 5 >Hadith From Number 661 >661) Narrated Abu Raja Al-Utaridi: > >We used to worship stones, and when we found a better stone than the >first one, we would throw the first one and take the latter, but if we could >not get a stone then we would collect some earth (i.e. soil) and then >bring a sheep and milk that sheep over it, and perform the Tawaf around it." > >Apparently stones are worshipped in Islam. Does anyone know anything >about this? I just found it interesting. > >Craig J. Hunt in Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada > http://www.triumf.ca/people/craig/craig.htm > ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 22:14:48 PST Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca From: "Joe Davies" Reply-To: "Joe Davies" To: "Hilton Freed" , Subject: Re: Viewing Stone name & other countries, was Re: NOTICE Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 06:05:19 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: Writes Hilton Freed.... > The Chinese Scholar Rocks are not Suiseki because they are the Chinese > version of the art form and have their own variation of it. Altering the > rock is part of that culture's expression of its art. Suiseki is Japan's > art form and the rocks are not altered. This is where some confusion lies, the Japanese have altered their stones as a matter of course, from cutting the bases flat to 'helping' such as scratching out the waterfall areas on Furuyaishi stones (many of the Furuya stones I have examinsed have been 'helped' - from old to new). Indeed many of their treasures or 'meiseki' have been altered. My perception is they deem it 'ok' if it happened in the past but not if it is done to a 'new' stone. However, examine their current export stones and try and find an un-altered one! My own thoughts are that it is a personal matter as to what degree of alteration one finds acceptable e.g. I used to cut stones now I no longer to do so and only collect completely un-altered stones - my taste in the subject has evolved. I say 'evolved', I dont necessarilly mean 'improved'. I think it a common misconception that the Japanese only used un-altered stones. Regards Joe ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 08:54:42 PST Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 10:53:54 -0500 (CDT) From: Ron Prosser Reply-To: Ron Prosser To: norbalt@juno.com CC: craig@triumf.ca, viewing_stones@triumf.ca Subject: Re: Stones & Islam Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII My understanding of Islam and veneration of rocks is that this was basically a pre-Islamic practice that was purged by the Prophet, except in two instances--1) as was noted earlier, the stone from which Mohammed ascended to heaven in Jerusalem (also venerated by Judism as the threshing floor of one of the prophets--sorry, I forget which), and 2) the black rock, which is believed to have fallen from heaven (and may be a meteorite, but this hasn't been verified), that's set into the corner of the Kaaba in Mecca. Ron Prosser ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 10:12:11 PST Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca Message-ID: <199710241715.NAA20216@smtp2.erols.com> From: "Chris Cochrane" Reply-To: "Chris Cochrane" To: Subject: Cultural/aesthetic insights [was Re: Stones & Islam] Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 13:10:52 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Craig writes re' Islamic practice, > We used to worship stones, and when we found a better stone than the first > one, we would throw the first one and take the latter, but if we could not > get a stone then we would collect some earth (i.e. soil) and then bring a > sheep and milk that sheep over it, and perform the Tawaf around it." GREAT find, Craig. In India, Hindus collect lingam (a smooth stone in the shape of a phallus) from rivers to use in rites for Shiva-- the god of destruction that makes way for creation & rebirth. Milk is poured over this naturally shaped stone and falls into a carved yoni-shaped stone (the female equivalent of the phallus) that I think represents Shiva's consort Paravati-- if not, Shiva is probably in big trouble! Some Japanese collectors prize stones that suggest parts of the human body, especially those with sexual connotations [Covello/Yoshimura, p. 44]. For me, the interest here is in how Japanese aesthetics has changed over time and social place. Jerome Cushman, a bonsai enthusiast from NY State, has helped me understand some of this... so I'll share his thoughts which reflect Sen ichi Hisamatsu's writings. Roughly from Jerome: > Stones prized for sexual connotation could be associated with the Japanese aesthetic terms for wit. During the Heian Period-- 794-> 1185-- the common people used the word "okashi" to mean anything from funny to unseemliness; for nobility it meant pleasant > sensation-- aesthetically it went from the quality of gaiety and brightness into incongruity, ludicrousness & humorous impropriety... > then onto quick appreciation, ingenuity, harmony & elegance. At first, it was in complete contrast to "mono-no-aware" (sensitivity > to things), but then it became synonymous with things sharing harmony and elegance. Today we might speak of sophisticated > titillation to suggest "okashi." It is related to a word Kathy Shaner brought up at the '96 ABS (bonsai) Convention-- "omoshiroshi"-- > which in nature is brightness, cheerfulness, lightness and serenity. A contrasting word is "taketakashi" which means sublime, > noble beauty with elegance. Notice that when the upper classes and the literati use these words, the concept of elegance is part of > the meaning. > > "Suki" which is most commonly referenced as "tea taste" is also referenced by Hisamatsu as pleasure, fancy, taste, liking to do as > one pleases et al.. When looking at the history of these terms, you can conclude that the whole "subtle elegance" thing gradually > became "campy" and infected with a kind of affectation with which many poets and artists struggled to deal. The upper classes > experienced no suffering like the lower class artisans, whose work began to become popular in a later era. The poorer artists > reacted against the "elegance" thing and focused on the "wabi" and "sabi" aesthetics. Things became more simple and austere as > reflected in the tea ceremony. > > "Mushin" & "ushin" are examples of changing meanings. "Mushin" originally was used disparagingly of comic or witty "renga > lacking sensibility." Later it means an intuitively achieved, transcendent beauty, surpassing "ushin" (deeply felt poetic emotion) > and "yugen" (quiet beauty/elegant simplicity). "Mushin," the philosophical concept of "no-mind," is also THE key concept for > approaching Zen intuitiveness. When I asked Jerome about some of these words, he wrote, "Why are you interested in these terms? Why would anyone be? To what end??..." I must admit that for me, linking a stone to "freedom that extends beyond convention" or to "unrestrained naturalness expressing no intent" makes me smile inside. Looking at the same stone, Andy Miksys probably also smiles-- perhaps with thoughts of Pam Anderson-- and doesn't need all those pesky aesthetic terms to achieve his pleasure... :-) So... back to where the post began... I am extremely interested in the aesthetic/cultural insights related to stones. It is those feelings for stones that I am seeking. Those feelings are the real treasure! Chris... C. Cochrane, mailto:sashai@erols.com, Richmond VA USA ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 13:06:05 PST Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 13:25:22 +0700 To: viewing_stones@triumf.ca From: joyca@igc.org (Joyca Cunnan) Reply-To: joyca@igc.org (Joyca Cunnan) Subject: unsubscribe unsubscribe ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 16:37:08 PST Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca Message-ID: <199710242340.TAA19886@smtp1.erols.com> From: "Chris Cochrane" Reply-To: "Chris Cochrane" To: Subject: Re: Stones & Islam Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 19:34:57 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Craig quotes from a "hadith" (sayings of the Prophet): > We used to worship stones, and when we found a better stone than the first > one, we would throw the first one and take the latter, but if we could not > get a stone then we would collect some earth (i.e. soil) and then bring a > sheep and milk that sheep over it, and perform the Tawaf around it." In case you were about to ask: "Tawaf" is the circumambulating of the Ka'bah seven times. People usually do this during "umrah" (lesser pilgrimage) or "Hajj" (literally, "effort"). The Hajj is the pilgrimage to Mecca that is obligatory on every Muslim. It is one of the five pillars of Islam and takes place during the Islamic month of Zhul al-Hijjah. A Muslim must perform the Hajj at least once in his life. The exception to this is financial and health reasons. [from a dictionary of Islamic terms at the "alim" website Craig noted]. My "hajj" will be to the Ligurian Alps next month. Thanks to Marco Favero, it is going to be a trip beyond my expectation. If I can't circle a mountain, perhaps I can at least circle Luciana Garbini's, Chiara Padrini's and Marco's stones a few times. If Italy is as bucolic in their area as elsewhere, perhaps there will even be an opportunity to milk a goat. Ever had your stones Marco baptized Marco? I could give them the full-immersion Southern Baptist rites! Chris... C. Cochrane, mailto:sashai@erols.com, Richmond VA USA ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 16:53:39 PST Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 20:10:52 -0400 From: sinclair@ONLINE.EMICH.EDU (Jay Sinclair) Reply-To: sinclair@ONLINE.EMICH.EDU (Jay Sinclair) Subject: Re: "wabi" and "sabi" was: Cultural/aesthetic insights [was Re: Stones & Islam] To: viewing_stones@triumf.ca Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >"wabi" and "sabi" I seen these terms used several times on this list. Pardon my ignorance, but would someone please define them? Jay Jay Sinclair Zone 5/6, MI, USA sinclair@online.emich.edu Experience is the name everyone gives to their mistakes. Oscar Wilde ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 17:19:19 PST Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca From: "Garry Garcia" Reply-To: "Garry Garcia" To: "Garry Garcia" , Subject: Re: WOOD USE FOR DAI Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 19:19:52 -0500 Message-ID: <01bce0db$b69c7da0$b15f47cc@ggarcia.vvm.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Lynn, You are absolutely correct, not much out there about woods, Joe sent me a round piece of Purple Heart, and a piece of Padauk, the Purple Heart is incredibly hard to carve, but is beautiful, on the other hand the Padauk is wonderful to carve and turns out better than any other wood I have carved. Now to your question. I have found that Oak is very nice to work with, it is easy to carve, and is very forgiving, it can be stained to obtain a complimentary colour to your stone, or left in its natural state, both are desirable. Maple is good too, a little bit soft, and not easy to stain (if desired), but works nicely, especially with detailed design. My choice is the Oak. Sounds like you have the right tools for the job, just be careful working on the small stuff, it will take off a nail, or give ya a good scar to remember the session by. Joe has a very good page on carving a dai, and mine is so, so, (working on it), hope this helps a little. Oh yes, the availability of Oak is usually good too, and a little less expensive than some of the exotics, for me that was a big plus. Take Care, write if you get a chance. Garry >-----Original Message----- >From: Lynn boyd >To: viewing_stones@triumf.ca >Date: Wednesday, October 22, 1997 11:03 AM >Subject: WOOD USE FOR DAI > > >> >> Dai Carvers: >> >> I am seeking some information about woods to use >> when carving a dai. >> My first dai was a mistaken choice of wood, a >> mahogany, and I do not want to repeat the mistake with >> something else. >> I have now in my possession a piece of padauk and of >> purple heart which I know to be good woods. >> They neither one are large enough for the dai I want >> to start. >> There is possibly something in print that would speak >> directly to woods and their characteristics, but I would >> prefer to hear what you who have carved stands would find >> in your experience to be your preferences, and how you arrive >> at a choice for a particular stone, whether that choice is >> governed by your design for the dai, the stone's characteristics, >> its ease of carving. I suspect there are aspects to it >> that I do not have a thought in my head regarding. >> >> Nothing can be too basic, so would appreciate a thread >> with this as its subject. Include, also, any thoughts about >> burrs and tools. I will use a Mikita die grinder, and have >> a fairly good Dremel. My burrs are insufficient for much >> at this time. >> There is information to be found in some web pages, but >> not directed at wood choices specifically. The array of woods >> in some of the specialty stores is rather overwhelming, though >> I have to make a trip to these shops. Sales people are no help >> so far. >> Lynn >> boyd@peak.org >> > ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sun, 26 Oct 1997 18:36:21 PST Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: viewing_stones@triumf.ca From: John Quinn Reply-To: John Quinn Subject: Treasures of the Chinese Scholar Date: Sun, 26 Oct 1997 17:53:40 -0800 Message-ID: <01534063105663@metro.net> The show in San Francisco was interesting but not something I would go out of my way to see. They have about 3 rooms with historical objects that cover a range of interests - brushes, brush rests, ink, ink trays, paper, furniture, chops, paper, decorative art objects and Fantastic Rocks(Guai Shi). There is one of a yellow color - maybe jasper, a small lingbi, a 12" Taihu, 4" square piece of turquoise, a sampling of a mottled red stone of which chops were made of and a random sampling of other stone items. It, in my opinion, is not a very special show. There is a 6 page show pamphlet - $5.00 and they are selling a book - Treasures of the Chinese Scholar by Fang Jing Pei - $34.00(165 pages). If I happened to be walking down Kearney Street and happened upon this show I'd go in... jrq ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 14:29:29 PST Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 23:29:29 +0100 Message-ID: <199710272229.XAA30417@inrete.it> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: viewing_stones@triumf.ca From: marco favero Reply-To: marco favero Subject: Re: Stones & Islam At 19.34 24/10/97 -0400,Chris Cochrane you wrote: > >My "hajj" will be to the Ligurian Alps next month. Thanks to Marco Favero, >it is going to be a trip beyond my expectation. If I can't circle a >mountain, perhaps I can at least circle Luciana Garbini's, Chiara Padrini's >and Marco's stones a few times. If Italy is as bucolic in their area as >elsewhere, perhaps there will even be an opportunity to milk a goat. Ever >had your stones Marco baptized Marco? I could give them the full-immersion >Southern Baptist rites! Hey Chris, you will be able wheter to play the giddy goat or to separate the sheep from the goats,but i doubt you are an expert of to milk a goat:-)!!!! and besides there arn't goats where we will accompany you!at least i never have seen them.bucolic spots now are only in our dreams. always i baptize my stones twice at day,and i'm very curious to know Southern Baptist rites,we use only clear water or red wine,and you?beer,milk goat or camel? when you will come back,you will be baptized under Sacred Roman Catholic Church. my best whishes. marco favero@inrete.it ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 07:35:35 PST Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 10:35:58 -0500 (EST) From: Deane@aol.com Reply-To: Deane@aol.com Message-ID: <971028103506_1000672660@emout04.mail.aol.com> To: jrquin@metro.net, owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca, viewing_stones@triumf.ca Subject: Re: Treasures of the Chinese Scholar In a message dated 10/27/97 3:34:47 AM, jrquin@metro.net (John Quinn) wrote: <> I agree completely. Saw the show this past weekend in San Francisco--it has just six Scholars' Stones plus a few other items made of stone. The booklet and the nice book reflect the show--very little in them on Scholars' Stones. Don't go out of your way so see it if you are interested primarily in stones and not in other items of Shinese scholars. However, DO GO out of your way (even well out of your way) to see the Rosenblum collection at one of its locations--FANTASTIC. Deane Hall, Denver, Colorado Deane@aol.com ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 07:58:41 PST Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 07:57:52 -0800 (PST) From: Lynn boyd Reply-To: Lynn boyd To: viewing_stones@triumf.ca Subject: Re: Treasures of the Chinese Scholar Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII My appreciation to John Quinn and Deane for their frank opinion of the SF show. Spending the money on a flight and night's stay to see the show had best be spent now on a collection trip I am thinking. Lynn ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 22:16:03 PST Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: viewing_stones@triumf.ca From: John Quinn Reply-To: John Quinn Subject: archeo-metrologist CC: bernard@sonic.net Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 22:30:13 -0800 Message-ID: <06301390405773@metro.net> Those of you that are interested in numbers, asia, and relationships owe it to yourselves to check out bernard's web page - www.sonic.net/bernard/ I'd be interested in your opinion and so would bernard jrq ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 10:15:36 PST Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca Message-ID: <19971030181557.3782.qmail@hotmail.com> From: "Levan Kverenadze" Reply-To: "Levan Kverenadze" To: viewing_stones@triumf.ca Subject: unsubscribe Content-Type: text/plain Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 10:15:57 PST unsubscribe ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com