Archive-Date: Mon, 03 Nov 1997 17:19:12 PST Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca Message-ID: <345E7843.16B0624F@surfsouth.com> Date: Mon, 03 Nov 1997 20:20:04 -0500 From: Bill Sikes Reply-To: Bill Sikes MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Suiseki Group Subject: Hello ......!? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello, Stone-Lovers! I haven't seen a post to the Viewing Stone group for days; is everyone too busy putting away trees? I guess I'm so interested in stones because here in South Georgia, we don't have any naturally occuring rock, unless you include sand in the category "rock." So, come on, all you people who can go out in the yard and find rocks, remind me of what stone looks like and how it feels! Bill -- Bill Sikes mailto:bjra@surfsouth.com Member, South Georgia Bonsai Club, USA USDA Zone 8 The Bonsai Shop & Nursery "Extraordinary by Nature" 2061 East Oleander Avenue Coolidge, GA 31738 1-912-346-3345 ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 04 Nov 1997 18:22:11 PST Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca From: "Craig Coussins" Reply-To: "Craig Coussins" To: "Bill Sikes" , "Suiseki Group" Subject: Re: Hello ......!? Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 07:06:17 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: Okay! Whats a Rock? Craig Coussins. ---------- > From: Bill Sikes > To: Suiseki Group > Subject: Hello ......!? > Date: 04 November 1997 02:20 > > Hello, Stone-Lovers! > > I haven't seen a post to the Viewing Stone group for days; is everyone > too busy putting away trees? > > I guess I'm so interested in stones because here in South Georgia, we > don't have any naturally occuring rock, unless you include sand in the > category "rock." > > So, come on, all you people who can go out in the yard and find rocks, > remind me of what stone looks like and how it feels! > > Bill > -- > Bill Sikes mailto:bjra@surfsouth.com > Member, South Georgia Bonsai Club, USA USDA Zone 8 > > The Bonsai Shop & Nursery "Extraordinary by Nature" > 2061 East Oleander Avenue > Coolidge, GA 31738 1-912-346-3345 > > ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 04 Nov 1997 18:53:19 PST Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca Message-ID: <199711050253.SAA06196@peak.org> From: "Lynn Boyd" Reply-To: "Lynn Boyd" To: Subject: Re: Hello ......!? - What's a rock? Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 18:53:44 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Yes, Bill, Craig asks a fair question. You mention rocks and you mention stone. Do you define a difference? Think you are suggesting there is by the usage. Must be more than mineral matter of various composition, consolidated or unconsolidated, assembled in a mass. It is a good question and you have something in mind. Give! Lynn -------- > From: Craig Coussins > To: Bill Sikes ; Suiseki Group > Subject: Re: Hello ......!? > Date: Friday, October 10, 1997 10:06 PM > > Okay! > Whats a Rock? > Craig Coussins. > > ---------- > > From: Bill Sikes > > To: Suiseki Group > > Subject: Hello ......!? > > Date: 04 November 1997 02:20 > > > > Hello, Stone-Lovers! > > > > I haven't seen a post to the Viewing Stone group for days; is everyone > > too busy putting away trees? > > > > I guess I'm so interested in stones because here in South Georgia, we > > don't have any naturally occuring rock, unless you include sand in the > > category "rock." > > > > So, come on, all you people who can go out in the yard and find rocks, > > remind me of what stone looks like and how it feels! > > > > Bill > > -- > > Bill Sikes mailto:bjra@surfsouth.com > > Member, South Georgia Bonsai Club, USA USDA Zone 8 > > > > The Bonsai Shop & Nursery "Extraordinary by Nature" > > 2061 East Oleander Avenue > > Coolidge, GA 31738 1-912-346-3345 > > > > ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 05 Nov 1997 07:20:32 PST Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19971105072412.006a0148@oberon.ark.com> Date: Wed, 05 Nov 1997 07:24:12 -0700 To: From: Anton Nijhuis Reply-To: Anton Nijhuis Subject: What's a rock MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" For those of you who do not know rocks and minerals the basics are as follows; Minerals are certain elements or combinations of elements, the commonest mineral is silica which is quartz or just plain glass. Silica can also combine with other elements such as aluminum and form alumo-silicates minerals such as garnets and saphires. Rocks are made up of minerals and it is the mineral content, mineral size and shape that determine the classification. Whether it be igneous, sedimentary or metamorphic. After I determine the rock type of a viewing stone I immediatly understand that rock's natural history or pedigree. I have a good idea of the geology of the area I would be in and therefore know if that rock came to the beach by natural local erosion or on a long journey by glacier. A stone is a classification of size, in bonsai it would be shohin. When I collect rocks now it is a combined pleasure with a walk along the seaside, it is the colour, shape and the images the stone projects that first grabs my eye either from a distance or close at hand. If I see any possiblities I pick it and look at it from all the angles, yes, no, maybe and I might keep it. A rock in my hand that gets past the 'this may have potential' gets a thorough examination short of being xrayed. Firstly I try to identify the minerals in the rock, this gives the initial clues as to what type of rock it is. Second is to classify the size of the minerals and the shapes of the minerals. I could find a rock that only occurs 100 miles away or on the mainland across from Vancouver Island. This rock may have been born 1,000,000 years ago in a fiery volcano as a lava flow to harden and crystalize on the surface or deep within the earth 50,000,000 years ago as a granite. The mineral content will tell the temperatures at the time of creation, the mineral size will tell how quickly it cooled and the shape of the minerals may tell if the original minerals were altered at all after cooling. The lava rock then spent almost 1,000,000 years as part of a mountain to eventually be eroded away and finally split off of the original formation. The granite would have spent 50 times longer as a mountain before being exposed and eroded. When the ice age came with the one mile thick glaciers scouring all of Canada it picked up this rock and transported it many miles away, mixed it up on this journey with many other different rock types only to stop when the weather changed and the ice started to melt. These rocks were deposited and buried in morraines many years ago and have finally been eroded out by rain, rivers, floods and even ocean tides and waves. I see a different set of aesthetics towards rocks, the lava rock in my hand would conjure visions of lava flows maybe in the Jurassic age. This rock could have cooled on the earth's surface and witnessed the extinction of the dinosours. It could have been buried under many floods, mud slides and rockslides. It could have been uplifted by tremors or quakes. Finally one day maybe 10,000 years ago it broke away from the host rock and began it's final journey, it may have been exposed on the surface to be baked by the sun, be rained on, rolled, tumbled, buried, exposed this process repeated for 1,000's of years. Today this 1,000,000 year old rock may now sit on a wooden base. That is what's a rock. Anton Nijhuis Vancouver Island ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 07 Nov 1997 13:34:24 PST Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca Message-ID: <34638991.6ABACB32@surfsouth.com> Date: Fri, 07 Nov 1997 16:35:14 -0500 From: Bill Sikes Reply-To: Bill Sikes MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Suiseki Group Subject: Rock or Stone? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit When I was a child, my Great Grandfather was a Stone Mason. He took rough-hewn rock and shaped them into stones. The memories of his careful placement of the chisel on the new material, and a decisive, short, powerful swing of the mallet removed just the right amount of superflous material from the rock to reveal the stone inside. As the years have worked their inexorable magic on me, I find that I am able to look back on this simple activity with a feeling of awe and of respect. He took a piece of rock and turned it into a stone. Rembering this evokes a feeling of nostalgia. This causes me to realize that Art is neither limited to an accepted expression, nor is it necessarily noticed by the intelligensia. It's a rock until we notice Art. Then it's a Stone. Show me a rock and let me see the Stone. Bill -- Bill Sikes mailto:bjra@surfsouth.com Member, South Georgia Bonsai Club, USA USDA Zone 8 The Bonsai Shop & Nursery "Extraordinary by Nature" 2061 East Oleander Avenue Coolidge, GA 31738 1-912-346-3345 ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 07 Nov 1997 15:57:26 PST Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca From: "Craig Coussins" Reply-To: "Craig Coussins" To: "Bill Sikes" , "Suiseki Group" Subject: Re: Rock or Stone? Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 04:42:27 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: Now thats an artistic response if ever there was one! Craig C. ---------- > From: Bill Sikes > To: Suiseki Group > Subject: Rock or Stone? > Date: 07 November 1997 22:35 > > When I was a child, my Great Grandfather was a Stone Mason. He took > rough-hewn rock and shaped them into stones. > > The memories of his careful placement of the chisel on the new material, > and a decisive, short, powerful swing of the mallet removed just the > right amount of superflous material from the rock to reveal the stone > inside. > > As the years have worked their inexorable magic on me, I find that I am > able to look back on this simple activity with a feeling of awe and of > respect. He took a piece of rock and turned it into a stone. Rembering > this evokes a feeling of nostalgia. > > This causes me to realize that Art is neither limited to an accepted > expression, nor is it necessarily noticed by the intelligensia. > > It's a rock until we notice Art. Then it's a Stone. > > Show me a rock and let me see the Stone. > > Bill > > -- > Bill Sikes mailto:bjra@surfsouth.com > Member, South Georgia Bonsai Club, USA USDA Zone 8 > > The Bonsai Shop & Nursery "Extraordinary by Nature" > 2061 East Oleander Avenue > Coolidge, GA 31738 1-912-346-3345 > > ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sat, 08 Nov 1997 19:23:09 PST Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca Message-ID: <34652CED.8824804F@surfsouth.com> Date: Sat, 08 Nov 1997 22:24:30 -0500 From: Bill Sikes Reply-To: Bill Sikes MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Chris Cochrane , viewing_stones@triumf.ca Subject: Re: Rock or Stone? References: <199711080025.TAA05212@smtp1.erols.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Chris Cochrane wrote: > Hi, Bill. > > You write, > > > When I was a child, my Great Grandfather was a Stone Mason. He > took > > > rough-hewn rock and shaped them into stones. > > My grandmother's family (the Powell's) owned a quarry and were > stonecutters > in South Carolina. The men often died of lung ailments at young > ages. It > must have been a passion to have risked so much. > > Chris... C. Cochrane, mailto:sashai@erols.com, Richmond VA USA Hello, Chris! I hope you don't mind if I post this to the entire Suiseki Group, but I feel that this is very a important anecdote that will divulge some insight on my perceptions regarding the existence of Rock and Stone. A few years ago, either to my benefit or detriment I cannot say, I lived in Kansas City. They have an enormous museum there, and always have some kind of fantastic display in progress. You know how museums have a thing about antiquities! While I was living there, they had a display of some ancient Egyptian artifacts, including several sculptures. Now, I realize that all the rock we encounter in our world is at the very least many thousands of years old, and probably millions of years old, as Anton has so definitively and poignantly described, but when I saw this particular sculpture of a mans face that was known to be over 3000 years old, I was wholely fascinated and absorbed! Of course, the sign next to it said "Please, do not touch!" Of course, I was utterly compelled to touch it! I very gently brushed the tip of my right index finger against the smooth cheek surface of the sculpture. As I did so, I experienced a sublime communion with the spirit of the sculptor that will remain with me for the rest of my life! Just to know that this was the actual artistic expression of a man who lived over 3000 years ago filled me with a sense of awe and a sense of his enduring presence that I doubt I will ever experience again, a joy and unspeakable sense that was surpassed only by my witnessing the birth of my daughter! To actually be in contact with the Stone of this unknown artists rendering brought an intensely spiritual shudder of exstacy that vibrated my being all the way to the DNA that connects me to our common single-celled ancestor! To attempt to put this into any further words is futile, because I must try to describe the sensations of being aware of the genetic lineage that stretches all the way back to the beginning of time, and for that, I have no words. There is a Passion and an Exstacy in Rock and Stone! Bill -- Bill Sikes mailto:bjra@surfsouth.com Member, South Georgia Bonsai Club, USA USDA Zone 8 The Bonsai Shop & Nursery "Extraordinary by Nature" 2061 East Oleander Avenue Coolidge, GA 31738 1-912-346-3345 ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sat, 08 Nov 1997 21:07:31 PST Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca Date: Sat, 8 Nov 1997 21:07:23 -0800 (PST) From: Lynn boyd Reply-To: Lynn boyd To: viewing_stones@triumf.ca CC: Chris Cochrane , Bill Sikes Subject: STONES- AESTHETIC EXPERIENCE Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Bill and Chris: (Yours recopied below) What you have both written reenforces a genuine Art spirit underlying suiseki or viewing stones for us. Reminds us thoughtfully. Bill, your experience is a pretty classic aesthesis. And furthermore was of a sublime nature. That is very rare. We often talk about the beauty of a rock or stone, but you have carried the aesthetic experience to the peak. Last week Chris and I were discussing the difference between the aesthetic experience of beauty and the sublime. I wrote a very short description of the difference, and I am going to attach it because I often see the two experiences treated the same when good references exist to explain the quite substantial philosphical difference. As follows is my writing to Chris. He had not yet added his:: I will try to work on sublime a little bit. Compare it to beauty in this manner: Beauty has form, it is connected to a form that contains beauty, thus is bounded. Sublimity _transcends_ form, it is an experience of boundlessness. Beauty seems to have a form already pre-adapted to contain beauty (as human beauty?), whereas the sublime will be objects that call forth something so great, so overwhelming that everything else is small - it stands over us in its absoluteness -it can be violence, wildness, chaos . . . Imagine being the first to see a burned city and corpses, a field of the dead in battle, a murderer mourning over his victim, or a vision so real it is Holy and one falls before its power. These are sublime. These visions have absolute power over us! We are in their grip! They are the sublime. When you approach Kant with beauty and sublimity you run into the differences of the way they are viewed - and felt. Briefly it has to be _judged_ in some way to be called beauty, but the sublime has to be experienced, felt. Beauty can be looked at with disinterest, even detachment, but before the sublime one does not escape an experience. Personal note: My greatest such experience was watching the birth of my first purebred Arabian colt, a perfectly formed, beautiful animal, he took one long breath and died from the exertion of the passage through the birth canal. Unbelievable, terrifying to watch such perfection in birth followed by unbelieving death. Only by _one_ breath were birth and life separated. I envy yours, Bill, though they both bear a Fate-filled realization. ---------------------- Chris Cochrane wrote: >Hi, Bill. > You write, > > > When I was a child, my Great Grandfather was > > >a Stone Mason. He took rough-hewn rock and shaped > > > them into stones. > My grandmother's family (the Powell's) owned a > quarry and were stonecutters in South Carolina. The > men often died of lung ailments at young ages. It > must have been a passion to have risked so much. > > Chris... C. Cochrane, mailto:sashai@erols.com, Richmond VA USA -------- Hello, Chris! I hope you don't mind if I post this to the entire Suiseki Group, but I feel that this is very a important anecdote that will divulge some insight on my perceptions regarding the existence of Rock and Stone. A few years ago, either to my benefit or detriment I cannot say, I lived in Kansas City. They have an enormous museum there, and always have some kind of fantastic display in progress. You know how museums have a thing about antiquities! While I was living there, they had a display of some ancient Egyptian artifacts, including several sculptures. Now, I realize that all the rock we encounter in our world is at the very least many thousands of years old, and probably millions of years old, as Anton has so definitively and poignantly described, but when I saw this particular sculpture of a mans face that was known to be over 3000 years old, I was wholely fascinated and absorbed! Of course, the sign next to it said "Please, do not touch!" Of course, I was utterly compelled to touch it! I very gently brushed the tip of my right index finger against the smooth cheek surface of the sculpture. As I did so, I experienced a sublime communion with the spirit of the sculptor that will remain with me for the rest of my life! Just to know that this was the actual artistic expression of a man who lived over 3000 years ago filled me with a sense of awe and a sense of his enduring presence that I doubt I will ever experience again, a joy and unspeakable sense that was surpassed only by my witnessing the birth of my daughter! To actually be in contact with the Stone of this unknown artists rendering brought an intensely spiritual shudder of exstacy that vibrated my being all the way to the DNA that connects me to our common single-celled ancestor! To attempt to put this into any further words is futile, because I must try to describe the sensations of being aware of the genetic lineage that stretches all the way back to the beginning of time, and for that, I have no words. There is a Passion and an Ecstacy in Rock and Stone! Bill -- Bill Sikes mailto:bjra@surfsouth.com ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sun, 09 Nov 1997 03:28:35 PST Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca Date: Sun, 9 Nov 1997 12:29:59 +0100 Message-ID: <199711091129.MAA15151@inrete.it> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: viewing_stones@triumf.ca From: marco favero Reply-To: marco favero Subject: Re: STONES- AESTHETIC EXPERIENCE Hi Lynn, leave me do some comment to your statements,which i will put directly under your speech,thanks. At 21.07 08/11/97 -0800,Lynn Boyd you wrote: > > Bill and Chris: (Yours recopied below) > > What you have both written reenforces a genuine Art spirit > underlying suiseki or viewing stones for us. Reminds us > thoughtfully. > > Bill, your experience is a pretty classic aesthesis. > And furthermore was of a sublime nature. That is very rare. > We often talk about the beauty of a rock or stone, but > you have carried the aesthetic experience to the peak. > > Last week Chris and I were discussing the difference > between the aesthetic experience of beauty and the sublime. > I wrote a very short description of the difference, and > I am going to attach it because I often see the two experiences > treated the same when good references exist to explain the > quite substantial philosphical difference. > As follows is my writing to Chris. He had not yet added his:: > > I will try to work on sublime a little bit. > > Compare it to beauty in this manner: > Beauty has form, it is connected to a form > that contains beauty, thus is bounded. > Sublimity _transcends_ form, it is an experience > of boundlessness. > > Beauty seems to have a form already pre-adapted to > contain beauty (as human beauty?), whereas the sublime > will be objects that call forth something so great, > so overwhelming that everything else is small - it > stands over us in its absoluteness -it can be violence, > wildness, chaos . . . Must the sublime be only a negative image?i think not so. the sublime touchs the most bottom of our soul,you cannot define sublime a violence,wildness or chaos.aesthetic feeling,i believe,has nothing to do with a negative image. sublime means (from latin "sub"=up and "limus"=oblique) something which goes up sideways and i.e. the display of a fact aesthetic or ethical in ITS MAXIMUM DEGREE,and the consequent feeling which derives from it. your quotes above about violence etc. for me are only called HORRORS of human being who has nether conscience nor morals. last sunday i visited in my town a show(Picta Fragmenta) of frescos coming from Pompei area and never displayed in public:looking at those paintings,at their technical work,at their moving expressions i can say that i was in a sublime mood and my being was plenty of joy and satisfaction;if on the contrary i have had the misfurtune of to be present at a scene of violence my feelings would have been totally different. > Imagine being the first to see a burned city and corpses, > a field of the dead in battle, a murderer mourning over his > victim, or a vision so real it is Holy and one falls before > its power. These are sublime. > These visions have absolute power over us! > We are in their grip! They are the sublime. No,sorry these are only horrors. > When you approach Kant with beauty and sublimity you run > into the differences of the way they are viewed - and felt. > Briefly it has to be _judged_ in some way to be called beauty, > but the sublime has to be experienced, felt. > Beauty can be looked at with disinterest, even detachment, but > before the sublime one does not escape an experience. Rationalists as Cartesius and Spinoza thought that the world is perfectly equal at like we become aware of it with our senses, and Empiricists as Hume,Locke and Berkeley on the contrary thought that the world is like our mind imagines it. Kant has a medium way(in medio stat virtus),for him wheter senses or mind are much important for the understanding of world:all that that we perceive,we experience it like a phenomenon in time and in space(the two forms of intuition)and these two forms of our conscience are a priori of each experience:experience and reason are the two elements which contribute to our world knowledge.in his Critic of Judgment Kant,like Romantics after,states what happens when we contemplate the beauty i.e. an art work:when we come near it without other interests except that of to "FEEL IT" the most deeply possible,then we overstep all bonds of that that we can know,the bonds of our reason.on grave of Kant is wrote:the starry sky above me and the moral law on me. and Friedrich Schiller gone longer,for him artist activity is a play,and only when human being plays is free because only he creates his own laws.according to Romantics only art can approach the "INEFFABLE",Sublime,Lynn? english romantic poet Coleridge said:What is it if you have slept? what is it if in your sleep you have dreamed?what is it if in your dream you rise in heaven and you have picked a strange and beautiful flower?and what is it if,when you woke up,you hold that flower in your hands? and this thinking to Novalis who in his book Enrico of Otterdingen describes the continuous research by Enrico of sky-blue flower seen once in dream. Artist for Romantics creates his own reality so like Good created the world. and i want add the thought of Jean-Paul Sartre the existensialist philosopher:we are free beings and the our liberty manages us for all our life to be condemned to choose:there are nether eternal values nor other rules,we are wholly responsible of our actions and feelings. > Personal note: > My greatest such experience was watching the birth of my first > purebred Arabian colt, a perfectly formed, beautiful animal, > he took one long breath and died from the exertion of the > passage through the birth canal. Unbelievable, terrifying to > watch such perfection in birth followed by unbelieving death. > Only by _one_ breath were birth and life separated. > I envy yours, Bill, though they both > bear a Fate-filled realization. this last statement i feel to share with you,the breath of life and death,the thin red-line between the being and the not-being, i agree, you and we are touched by this event,but sorry here i see only our destiny as human beings and a great sadness,i think i find nothing of sublime in that event. my best regards. marco favero@inrete.it ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sun, 09 Nov 1997 09:24:18 PST Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca Date: Sun, 9 Nov 1997 09:24:10 -0800 (PST) From: Lynn boyd Reply-To: Lynn boyd To: viewing_stones@triumf.ca CC: Chris Cochrane , marco favero Subject: ANSWER TO MARCO - BEAUTY/SUBLIME IN AESTHETICS Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Sun, 9 Nov 1997, marco favero wrote: > > Must the sublime be only a negative image? i think not so. No, of course not. I did not say that! There is the sometimes assumption that what is sublime is joyous. I am contradicting that to the degree that I overemphasized that it need not be ONLY pleasant events that bring us the impact of GREAT life experience and sublime realization. They can be brought to us, and often are, through feeling horror and chaos that often reveals to us that human Fate is touched by an omniscience beyond our grasp. Just to experience joy or happiness is not sublime, which is the effect of something so profound that we are led into a realm of enlightened awareness of something just beyond our usual grasp at understanding. It is transcending the ordinary into the extraordinary beyond our normal response. > the sublime touchs the most bottom of our soul,you cannot > define sublime a violence,wildness or chaos.aesthetic feeling,i believe,has nothing to do with a negative image. The soul could be said to be touched by anything. (Dante) As I stated the meanings of the words as used in an accepted or academic philosophical manner are used in my dis- cussion. We would not use these meaning necessarily in other conversations. This context is based on the references I use and proposed to fit with philosophical study. Aesthetics is a branch of philosophy, so I am ONLY defining a meaning. As in many formal studies the language is defined rather narrowly in order to refine definitions to fine points. You are poetically going beyond my parameters, dear friend. I agree with you, Marco, that it is difficult to follow the concepts as presented without more of the study, but you would find my references hard to dispute. I will list them below. I would not in such a field "go it alone." Latin is in my background, too, but it is not always the basis of the word used, though most frequent. It might well be either German or French, also. That is a different discussion. > HORRORS of human being who has nether conscience nor morals. (snipped) No one could deny that Hiroshima taught us a sublime truth . . . and it was a horror of the utmost to me to suddenly be aware of the power humanity has to destroy and en masse inflict death on other humanity. In a way both Hiroshima and the Holocaust were humanity's sublime experiences of this century. > last sunday i visited in my town a show(Picta Fragmenta) of frescos coming from Pompei area and never displayed in public:looking at > those paintings,at their technical work,at their moving expressions > i can say that i was in a sublime mood and my being was plenty > of joy and satisfaction;if on the contrary i have had the misfurtune > of to be present at a scene of violence my feelings would have been > totally different. I have visited Pompeii (got lost and almost spent the night) and agree with you that it is an experience, but do not agree that it was sublime in the terminology used in this discussion. In Pompeii I was seeing what remained of the culture that was pleasant -the murals, the skills, the architecture- but the ashen-shaped remains of the living did not represent beauty, which in my writing is being designated as differing from the sublime, and because these were enclosed in sterile showcases without all the sensual surrounds of their ghastly death they could not fully carry into my being the sublime nature of their death in an unforeseen, unpredictable Force. I recognize it, but I do not feel it. > > > Imagine being the first to see a burned city and corpses, > > a field of the dead in battle, a murderer mourning over his > > victim, or a vision so real it is Holy and one falls before > > its power. These are sublime. > > These visions have absolute power over us! > > We are in their grip! They are the sublime. > > No,sorry these are only horrors. Horror, the kind that grips one's immortal soul in awareness is sublime. We are opened to omniscience. A vision having the power to make us fall to our knees in an awareness of an unattainable perfection beyond human grasp opens us to some greatness of force or omniscience that is sublime. It isn't the Nature of the event that brings us deep and profound evidence of our unprescribed human destiny. It is the feeling evoked. Not in the winds of a storm but the Power of the unex- phenomena, such as Pompeii. I may have watched the recent damage to St.Francis' Basilica in such horror and helplessness - but do not know without the experience whether I would have experienced it as sublime. I may assume so and call it that, however in telling YOU, Marco, how sorry I was about it. Poetic license. :) Marco: Agreed that philosophers differ, but what I fail to see is what I set out to define - the difference between the word beauty and the word sublime in a philosophical discussion, and to emphasize Bill's reaction which I was recognizing that way. This is a very narrow exposition of defining two words so that they take on meanings that are readily available to describe to one another just what we felt about an event or an object. It carries no farther than that. What is beauty? What is sublime? Beauty may contain the sublime in the experiencing it, but it would have to move greatly beyond those borders to become sublime. And what one person experiences at an event, depending upon upon their experiencing it, is not the same as another's, though there could be a consensus of a number of people who would find one response more likely than the another. (Hiroshima & Holocaust) Lynn Re my experience with the birth of the foal. The preparation to produce an outstanding animal is a matter of long study, high cost, careful planning, playing at being God, and to see it arrive - a coal black, perfect little Arabian stallion-to-be - then in ONE breath- lose its life when it fulfilled a dream -one breath- and dreams, life and hope and over a year of saving and dedicated planning succumbed to a Force or Fate like a massive sweep of omniscience. It was only MY personal experience, of course not yours, and my point was that it is a "personal" experience when the sublime carries us into a moment of awareness of our vulnerability to a larger force. It was MY lesson in avoiding such attachment to achievement in one thing so intensely. A different sublimity than Bill's which I can under- stand, but not ever share in because it is his. I recognize his experiencing the sublime. That is all, Marco. Ref: The Transformation of Nature into Art: Ananda Coomaraswamy (Primary ref.) ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sun, 09 Nov 1997 12:41:38 PST Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca Date: Sun, 9 Nov 1997 12:41:31 -0800 (PST) From: Lynn boyd Reply-To: Lynn boyd To: viewing_stones@triumf.ca Subject: Re: ANSWER TO MARCO - BEAUTY/SUBLIME IN AESTHETICS (fwd) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Marco, I understand you are very disturbed by what seems a callous human being in your presence. I do not warrant your accusation. I may have a different meaning provided me for a word, but it does not define me as a person. You have carried this to a personal level and that hurts. I know the meaning of sublime from the Oxford Dictionary, and many other of its high standards and it means concerning the exalted, the highest, that which transcends. So the acadamicions use it to say horror as well as beauty transcends our normalcy. Transcending and sublime to you mean only that concerned with a benevolent God perhaps. Theirs seems to recognize there is not benevolence always dealt to us. I cannot explain it any other way. Some of the references we are using, both of us, predate the times we are in and the outlook of modern philosophers, as well as predate the studies of the psychoanalyses, Freud, Jung and others have contributed to sensual behavior. Added to that is our present study of the brain which is beginning to divulge sensual information faster than it can be incorporated into philosophy. I regret I said anything at all. Lynn C. Boyd ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sun, 09 Nov 1997 13:41:50 PST Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca From: "Craig Coussins" Reply-To: "Craig Coussins" To: "Lynn boyd" , CC: "Chris Cochrane" , "marco favero" Subject: Re: ANSWER TO MARCO - BEAUTY/SUBLIME IN AESTHETICS Date: Sun, 9 Nov 1997 22:20:45 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: OK GUYS, Lets get back to Suiseki, Rocks or Stones. The undoubted intellectual capabilities of some of you are quite staggering but for us lesser mortals with only a modicum of etymological understanding..after all who but a nut case collects stones as a hobby...(joke please..no response is required) it is better to keep the discussions to a slightly more ground level discussion rather than a cerebral one...Oh God I am also catching this disease!!! How about a discussion relating to displaying stones in a Tokonama, outdoor bench or exhibition. Is it better to display a few stones rather than a whole rockery and while I am at it, this concept of watering the stone; I find that it quickly becomes encrusted with algaes in my wet climate...like a fishtank that is kept near a window! Craig C. ---------- > From: Lynn boyd > To: viewing_stones@triumf.ca > Cc: Chris Cochrane ; marco favero > Subject: ANSWER TO MARCO - BEAUTY/SUBLIME IN AESTHETICS > Date: 09 November 1997 17:24 > > > On Sun, 9 Nov 1997, marco favero wrote: > > > > > Must the sublime be only a negative image? i think not so. > > No, of course not. I did not say that! There > is the sometimes assumption that what is sublime is joyous. > I am contradicting that to the degree that I overemphasized > that it need not be ONLY pleasant events that bring us the > impact of GREAT life experience and sublime realization. > They can be brought to us, and often are, through feeling > horror and chaos that often reveals to us that human Fate is > touched by an omniscience beyond our grasp. > Just to experience joy or happiness is not sublime, > which is the effect of something so profound that we are led > into a realm of enlightened awareness of something just beyond > our usual grasp at understanding. It is transcending the > ordinary into the extraordinary beyond our normal response. > > > the sublime touchs the most bottom of our soul,you cannot > > define sublime a violence,wildness or chaos.aesthetic feeling,i > believe,has nothing to do with a negative image. > > The soul could be said to be touched by anything. (Dante) > As I stated the meanings of the words as used in an > accepted or academic philosophical manner are used in my dis- > cussion. We would not use these meaning necessarily in other > conversations. This context is based on the references I use > and proposed to fit with philosophical study. Aesthetics > is a branch of philosophy, so I am ONLY defining a meaning. > As in many formal studies the language is defined rather > narrowly in order to refine definitions to fine points. > You are poetically going beyond my parameters, dear friend. > I agree with you, Marco, that it is difficult to follow > the concepts as presented without more of the study, but you > would find my references hard to dispute. I will list them below. > I would not in such a field "go it alone." > Latin is in my background, too, but it is not always the > basis of the word used, though most frequent. It might well be > either German or French, also. That is a different discussion. > > > HORRORS of human being who has nether conscience nor morals. (snipped) > > No one could deny that Hiroshima taught us a sublime > truth . . . and it was a horror of the utmost to me to > suddenly be aware of the power humanity has to destroy > and en masse inflict death on other humanity. In a way > both Hiroshima and the Holocaust were humanity's sublime > experiences of this century. > > > last sunday i visited in my town a show(Picta Fragmenta) of frescos > coming from Pompei area and never displayed in public:looking at > > those paintings,at their technical work,at their moving expressions > > i can say that i was in a sublime mood and my being was plenty > > of joy and satisfaction;if on the contrary i have had the misfurtune > > of to be present at a scene of violence my feelings would have been > > totally different. > > I have visited Pompeii (got lost and almost spent the night) > and agree with you that it is an experience, but do not agree > that it was sublime in the terminology used in this discussion. > In Pompeii I was seeing what remained of the culture that was > pleasant -the murals, the skills, the architecture- but the > ashen-shaped remains of the living did not represent beauty, > which in my writing is being designated as differing from the > sublime, and because these were enclosed in sterile showcases > without all the sensual surrounds of their ghastly death they > could not fully carry into my being the sublime nature of their > death in an unforeseen, unpredictable Force. I recognize it, but > I do not feel it. > > > > > Imagine being the first to see a burned city and corpses, > > > a field of the dead in battle, a murderer mourning over his > > > victim, or a vision so real it is Holy and one falls before > > > its power. These are sublime. > > > These visions have absolute power over us! > > > We are in their grip! They are the sublime. > > > > No,sorry these are only horrors. > > Horror, the kind that grips one's immortal soul > in awareness is sublime. We are opened to omniscience. > A vision having the power to make us fall to our knees > in an awareness of an unattainable perfection beyond > human grasp opens us to some greatness of force or > omniscience that is sublime. It isn't the Nature of > the event that brings us deep and profound evidence of > our unprescribed human destiny. It is the feeling evoked. > Not in the winds of a storm but the Power of the unex- > phenomena, such as Pompeii. I may have watched the > recent damage to St.Francis' Basilica in such horror > and helplessness - but do not know without the experience > whether I would have experienced it as sublime. > I may assume so and call it that, however in telling > YOU, Marco, how sorry I was about it. Poetic license. :) > > Marco: Agreed that philosophers differ, but what I fail to see > is what I set out to define - the difference between the word > beauty and the word sublime in a philosophical discussion, and > to emphasize Bill's reaction which I was recognizing that way. > > This is a very narrow exposition of defining two words so that > they take on meanings that are readily available to describe to > one another just what we felt about an event or an object. > It carries no farther than that. What is beauty? What is sublime? > Beauty may contain the sublime in the experiencing it, but it would > have to move greatly beyond those borders to become sublime. > > And what one person experiences at an event, depending upon > upon their experiencing it, is not the same as another's, though > there could be a consensus of a number of people who would find > one response more likely than the another. (Hiroshima & Holocaust) > Lynn > Re my experience with the birth of the foal. > The preparation to produce an outstanding animal is > a matter of long study, high cost, careful planning, > playing at being God, and to see it arrive - a coal > black, perfect little Arabian stallion-to-be - then > in ONE breath- lose its life when it fulfilled a dream > -one breath- and dreams, life and hope and over a year > of saving and dedicated planning succumbed to a Force > or Fate like a massive sweep of omniscience. > It was only MY personal experience, of course not yours, > and my point was that it is a "personal" experience when > the sublime carries us into a moment of awareness of our > vulnerability to a larger force. It was MY lesson in > avoiding such attachment to achievement in one thing so > intensely. > A different sublimity than Bill's which I can under- > stand, but not ever share in because it is his. I recognize > his experiencing the sublime. That is all, Marco. > Ref: > The Transformation of Nature into Art: Ananda Coomaraswamy > (Primary ref.) > ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sun, 09 Nov 1997 13:55:18 PST Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca Date: Sun, 9 Nov 1997 16:54:30 -0500 (EST) From: Mysteries@aol.com Reply-To: Mysteries@aol.com Message-ID: <971109165430_716752652@mrin47> To: Craig.Coussins@btinternet.com, owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca, boyd@peak.org, viewing_stones@triumf.ca CC: sashai@erols.com, favero@inrete.it Subject: Re: Re: ANSWER TO MARCO - BEAUTY/SUBLIME IN AESTHETICS Aren't the algaes sublime? Randall ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sun, 09 Nov 1997 14:47:05 PST Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca From: "Craig Coussins" Reply-To: "Craig Coussins" To: , , , CC: , Subject: Re: Re: Algaes Date: Sun, 9 Nov 1997 23:45:36 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: But not in my back yard if you please! Yours sincerely, Craig Coussins. ---------- > From: Mysteries@aol.com > To: Craig.Coussins@btinternet.com; owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca; boyd@peak.org; viewing_stones@triumf.ca > Cc: sashai@erols.com; favero@inrete.it > Subject: Re: Re: ANSWER TO MARCO - BEAUTY/SUBLIME IN AESTHETICS > Date: 09 November 1997 21:54 > > Aren't the algaes sublime? > > Randall ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sun, 09 Nov 1997 15:45:41 PST Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca Date: Sun, 9 Nov 1997 15:45:31 -0800 (PST) From: Lynn boyd Reply-To: Lynn boyd To: viewing_stones@triumf.ca CC: mysteries@aol.com Subject: Re: Algaes Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII > > Subject: Re: Re: ANSWER TO MARCO - BEAUTY/SUBLIME IN AESTHETICS > > Date: 09 November 1997 21:54 > > > > Aren't the algaes sublime? > > > > Randall ------------------------------- No, Randal, just slime. :) Lynn ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sun, 09 Nov 1997 16:53:22 PST Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca Date: Sun, 9 Nov 1997 19:53:17 -0500 (EST) From: Mysteries@aol.com Reply-To: Mysteries@aol.com Message-ID: <971109195317_-424729041@mrin44.mail.aol.com> To: boyd@peak.org, viewing_stones@triumf.ca CC: Mysteries@aol.com Subject: Re: Re: Algaes but...... what happens if there is lichen (not algae) and the lichen works toward the overall aesthetic of the stone? I am not being facetious here. The answer I could foresee is that the viewing stone is just that; stone and the lichen is an alien element. Has anyone kept lichens (which can be quite beautiful) on found stones? Randall ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sun, 09 Nov 1997 17:10:02 PST Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca From: "Chris Cochrane" Reply-To: "Chris Cochrane" To: "Lynn boyd" , , Subject: Declamations on beauty and sublimity Date: Sun, 9 Nov 1997 20:08:40 -0500 Message-ID: <01bced75$2e6d41c0$5e3faccf@sashai.erols.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Apologies to Craig Coussins... :-) ----------------------------------- Ah, what could be better than hearing Marco & Lynn share ideas and revelations on this topic... In the direction we've already headed, I wonder if Chinese Scholar Rocks will be referenced as "C.S. Stones" in the future? Marco notes that he thinks horrific experiences cannot be sublime. I don't see that following the thinkers he and Lynn offer. In Kant's third Critique (on Judgment), he distinguishes sublimity from beauty. Beauty depends on regarding an object as if it had a purpose because its harmony and wholeness make it look as though it was purposefully made. As Marco notes, the form of the object is connected a priori with a feeling of harmony of the two cognitive faculties (imagination and understanding) and the feeling of harmony is precisely the disinterested aesthetic pleasure itself. Sublimity as well as beauty affords disinterested pleasure and commands universal validity according to Kant. Whereas beauty depends upon the purposiveness of an object (as if pre-adapted to our judgement), sublimity is aroused by objects that seem "to do violence to the imagination." Faced by the sublime, we experience the boundless which extends beyond the form of the contemplated object as well as obliterating our self awareness. I think unspeakable horror leads us to this state of awareness as well as unspeakable beauty. Marco mentioned Friedrich Schiller, who is not quoted as frequently as Kant but whose insights are as compelling. Marco writes re' Schiller, > artist activity is a play,and only when human being > plays is free because only he creates his own laws. Schiller's "play impulse" seeks to integrate man's drive of recognizing he is bound to nature in the stream of time (sensuous impulse) to his other basic drive of consciousness of free will (formal impulse). In artistic play, emotion arises from the condition of utter rest and extreme movement at the same time. Schiller describes some of these experiences as toward the "melting" and others toward the "energizing" pole. In terms of viewing stone aesthetics, I think Schiller's polarization is particularly enlightening. In Western aesthetics, the experience of melting is often dismissed as sentimentality. In Japanese aesthetics especially, the experience of melting is most strongly embraced by a plethora of terms. Does a stone "exhibit beauty for" the viewer or "draw beauty from" the viewer? The intention of the artist is critical in distinguishing between the two. Where a found object such as a stone is contemplated, is there no artist's intention until the contemplated object is recognized? What is the basis for the original response to beauty when the stone is first recognized? Does the host anticipating a guest in Japanese tea aesthetics equate to a Western artist who paints or to an artist transforming a potential bonsai? I wish that Lynn would share her understanding of beauty and sensual pleasure. Modern psychology has lots to say about the transference may be similar to aestheticians speaking of integrating freedom and boundedness. I have stones that bring to mind things very un-stonelike... :-)... and Lynn suggested I research Hogarth's "line of beauty." Now that I've put CraigC & AndyM to sleep-- or at least laughing in their sleeves that anyone should care about aesthetic musings... ;-) -- I've got to know. Lynn brusquely signed her latest post, "Lynn C. Boyd." I can't find any "C..." words that stand for hard-headed, so what does that "C" denote? Chris... C. Cochrane, mailto:sashai@erol.com, Richmond VA USA ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sun, 09 Nov 1997 17:32:45 PST Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca Date: Sun, 9 Nov 1997 17:32:31 -0800 (PST) From: Lynn boyd Reply-To: Lynn boyd To: viewing_stones@triumf.ca Subject: Re: Declamations on beauty and sublimity Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Lynn brusquely signed her latest post, "Lynn C. Boyd." I can't find any "C..." words that stand for hard-headed, so what does that "C" denote? Chris... C. Cochrane, mailto:sashai@erol.com, Richmond VA USA ----------------- C stands for Chastised Lynn ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sun, 09 Nov 1997 18:16:39 PST Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca Date: Sun, 9 Nov 1997 21:15:08 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <199711100215.VAA21374@juliet.its.uwo.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: viewing_stones@triumf.ca From: Melissa Roseborough Reply-To: Melissa Roseborough Subject: unsubscribe Unsubscribe me from: Viewing Stones Aesthetics Mailing List ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sun, 09 Nov 1997 18:23:02 PST Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca From: "Chris Cochrane" Reply-To: "Chris Cochrane" To: Subject: Re: Lichen Date: Sun, 9 Nov 1997 21:21:38 -0500 Message-ID: <01bced7f$5feb0ac0$f73faccf@sashai.erols.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0008_01BCED55.771502C0" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01BCED55.771502C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Randall writes, > what happens if there is lichen (not algae) and the lichen works = toward the > overall aesthetic of the stone? I am not being facetious here. The = answer I > could foresee is that the viewing stone is just that; stone and the = lichen is > an alien element. Has anyone kept lichens (which can be quite = beautiful) on > found stones? I've argued this with friends over the net. One insists that to be a = suiseki, a stone must be clean. I asked about stones that are kept in = suiban in gardens, and he insisted that a true suiseki is intended to be = displayed inside. Certainly the books I've seen show stones without = lichen. I argued that if lichen impart age to the stone rather than = being seen as debris, its presence would be consistent with the Japanese = concept of an object in-_furyu_. I cannot find my original argument, but here is a short description of = _furyu_ from a discussion with another friend. ------ On FURYU: You had asked me about furyu (long accent over both "u" vowels): Furyu is often translated as "elegant life" but "refined life" is closer = to its true meaning. Furyu no asobi is often translated as "elegant = amusement" to describe arts such as the tea ceremony & flower = arrangement, but this definition trivializes its meaning of "a refined, = fleeting, instantaneous moment in time." The Way of Furyu (furyudo) is = to shun all strife and loose oneself in the joys of peace (this huge = jump in context may not be useful for aesthetics and will need some = clarification before dropping in so suddenly). Understanding the Way (or "Do" in Japanese, which was "Tao" in Chinese) = is essential for understanding - furyudo-. The Way represents the path = of life without breaking anything. Living in the Way is like the = experience of a cook who, in preparing a chicken, knows exactly where to = cut between bones so as not to hack the meat. The Way requires an individual to empty self (self-awareness) in order = to fill self; to surrender in order to experience refined awareness. In = classic Japanese tales (and in real life) man often gives up all = possessions or abandons family to reach the void necessary for refined = life. The Japanese say an object is "in furyu" or "out of furyu." That object = in furyu is said to evoke an inner quality in the person who is = contemplating it. Often the object is of imperfect shape or of meager = appearance; the misshapeness emphasizes perfection that you can never = achieve. Marks of survival are more interesting than the nature of the object = itself, and the hardness of life has elevated its beauty. Both the = object and the act that produces the object have furyu. The object in furyu, whether moss garden, bonsai, suiseki et al., = distillates experience and is a window to reality. ------- Since writing this note, I've found broader and narrower descriptions of = _furyu_ that expand upon this theme. I think it is a most important = concept for appreciating tea aesthetics including the display of = suiseki. One stone I've owned has had wonderful lichen on it in the past. Last = winter the lichen declined and have not restablished themselves since I = have kept the stone indoors. My feeling is that lichen is more akin to = a mark of age and to lack of intervention than to debris on a stone. It = therefore enhances a stone's beauty for me if the stone is such that = lichen would naturally have formed upon it. I would be distressed to = see lichen on a stone collected from the water, but I am glad to see it = naturally enhancing a stone undisturbed from a mountain. =20 C. Cochrane, mailto:sashai@erols.com, Richmond VA USA=20 ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01BCED55.771502C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Randall writes,
> what = happens if there=20 is lichen (not algae) and the lichen works toward the
> overall = aesthetic=20 of the stone?  I am not being facetious here.  The answer = I
>=20 could foresee is that the viewing stone is just that; stone and the = lichen=20 is
> an alien element.  Has anyone kept lichens (which can be = quite=20 beautiful) on
> found stones?
 
 
I've argued this with friends over the net.  = One insists=20 that to be a suiseki, a stone must be clean.  I asked about stones = that are=20 kept in suiban in gardens, and he insisted that a true suiseki is = intended to be=20 displayed inside.  Certainly the books I've seen show stones = without=20 lichen.   I argued that if lichen impart age to the stone = rather than=20 being seen as debris, its presence would be consistent with the Japanese = concept=20 of an object in-_furyu_.
 
I cannot find my original argument, but here is a = short=20 description of _furyu_ from a discussion with another = friend.
------ 

On FURYU:

You had asked me about furyu (long accent over both=20 "u" vowels):

Furyu is often translated as "elegant life" = but=20 "refined life" is closer to its true meaning. Furyu no asobi = is often=20 translated as "elegant amusement" to describe arts such as the = tea=20 ceremony & flower arrangement, but this definition trivializes its = meaning=20 of "a refined, fleeting, instantaneous moment in time." The = Way of=20 Furyu (furyudo) is to shun all strife and loose oneself in the joys of = peace=20 (this huge jump in context may not be useful for aesthetics and will = need some=20 clarification before dropping in so suddenly).

Understanding the Way (or "Do" in Japanese, = which was=20 "Tao" in Chinese) is essential for understanding - furyudo-. = The Way=20 represents the path of life without breaking anything. Living in the Way = is like=20 the experience of a cook who, in preparing a chicken, knows exactly = where to cut=20 between bones so as not to hack the meat.

The Way requires an individual to empty self = (self-awareness) in=20 order to fill self; to surrender in order to experience refined = awareness. In=20 classic Japanese tales (and in real life) man often gives up all = possessions or=20 abandons family to reach the void necessary for refined life.

The Japanese say an object is "in furyu" or = "out=20 of furyu." That object in furyu is said to evoke an inner quality = in the=20 person who is contemplating it. Often the object is of imperfect shape = or of=20 meager appearance; the misshapeness emphasizes perfection that you can = never=20 achieve.

Marks of survival are more interesting than the nature = of the=20 object itself, and the hardness of life has elevated its beauty. Both = the object=20 and the act that produces the object have furyu.

The object in furyu, whether moss garden, bonsai, = suiseki et=20 al., distillates experience and is a window to reality.

------- 
 
Since writing this note, I've found = broader and=20 narrower descriptions of _furyu_ that expand upon this theme.  I = think it=20 is a most important concept for appreciating tea aesthetics including = the=20 display of suiseki.
 
One stone I've owned has had = wonderful lichen on=20 it in the past.  Last winter the lichen declined and have not = restablished=20 themselves since I have kept the stone indoors.  My feeling is that = lichen=20 is more akin to a mark of age and to lack of intervention than to debris = on a=20 stone.  It therefore enhances a stone's beauty for me if the stone = is such=20 that lichen would naturally have formed upon it.  I would be = distressed to=20 see lichen on a stone collected from the water, but I am glad to see it=20 naturally enhancing a stone undisturbed from a mountain.  =
 
C. Cochrane, mailto:sashai@erols.com, Richmond = VA USA=20
------=_NextPart_000_0008_01BCED55.771502C0-- ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sun, 09 Nov 1997 18:24:04 PST Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca Date: Sun, 9 Nov 1997 18:23:46 -0800 (PST) From: Lynn boyd Reply-To: Lynn boyd To: Melissa Roseborough CC: viewing_stones@triumf.ca Subject: Re: unsubscribe Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Melissa, Try sending to Craig Hunt@triumf.ca I hope that does it for you. He can help, I know. Lynn I would have done it for you but it usually is automatic and requires your e-mail address to be on the request in the heading. ------------------- On Sun, 9 Nov 1997, Melissa Roseborough wrote: > Unsubscribe me from: Viewing Stones Aesthetics Mailing List > > ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sun, 09 Nov 1997 20:11:59 PST Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca Message-ID: <346689DF.E69B7C92@surfsouth.com> Date: Sun, 09 Nov 1997 23:13:20 -0500 From: Bill Sikes Reply-To: Bill Sikes MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Craig Coussins CC: Lynn boyd , viewing_stones@triumf.ca Subject: Re: ANSWER TO MARCO - BEAUTY/SUBLIME IN AESTHETICS References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Craig Coussins wrote: > OK GUYS, > Lets get back to Suiseki, Rocks or Stones. The undoubted intellectual > capabilities of some of you are quite staggering but for us lesser > mortals > with only a modicum of etymological understanding..after all who but a > nut > case collects stones as a hobby...(joke please..no response is > required) it > is better to keep the discussions to a slightly more ground level > discussion rather than a cerebral one...Oh God I am also catching this > > disease!!! > > How about a discussion relating to displaying stones in a Tokonama, > outdoor > bench or exhibition. Is it better to display a few stones rather than > a > whole rockery and while I am at it, this concept of watering the > stone; I > find that it quickly becomes encrusted with algaes in my wet > climate...like > a fishtank that is kept near a window! > > Craig C. Hello, Craig! I appreciate your down-to-earthedness. I would, please, like to make one more comment regarding our recent conversation. I find the entirity of the philosophical aspects of the Existence of Rock and Stone to be quite exhilarating. I believe that this is my personal approach to learning about a subject that, while appearing to be quite simple on the surface, is truly boundless in its depth. When we discuss the visual arts, we must always remember that each individual sees things entirely as they relate to his or her own personal universe. For example, "What is Blue?" One answers, "This beautiful flower is Blue." And I say, "Yes, to me that also is Blue, but, tell me then, What is Blue?" I realize that this is probably a very naive level of appreciation, but I will grow. And, by the way, I think Blue-green Algae are quite beautiful, even if they are just slime! ; ) Bill -- Bill Sikes mailto:bjra@surfsouth.com Member, South Georgia Bonsai Club, USA USDA Zone 8 The Bonsai Shop & Nursery "Extraordinary by Nature" 2061 East Oleander Avenue Coolidge, GA 31738 1-912-346-3345 ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sun, 09 Nov 1997 23:12:57 PST Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca From: "Joe Davies" Reply-To: "Joe Davies" To: Subject: Lichen etc Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 07:04:29 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: A few personal thoughts on recent threads.... Lichen etc...... In all my books, magazines, journals and researches into the subject, I have never seen a Suiseki or Chinese Scholar's Stone displayed with lichen upon their surface. These stones/rocks are intended to be interior display items and as such lichen is out of place. (The exception being Mr Rosenblum displays one stone with a covering of moss on its peak which he has artifically hollowed the surface of the stone to provide a well for the moss to sit in. However this rather moves the stone away from a viewing stone and into the realm of Pen-jing.) Chris Cochrane and I have had some friendly debates on this topic in the past and I feel it falls into the contemporary versus traditional arena. Traditionally lichen, moss or slime is not used for stones displayed indoors and I subscribe to that ethos. Rock or stone.... The simple definition revolves around the size of the object. In most people's eyes Stones are usually smaller than rocks. The use of 'rock' as in Chinese Scholar's Rocks is derived as many of their objects are very large and would probably not fall under the category of 'stones'. Whereas most suiseki are smaller and would normally be termed stones. Sublime.... As with Craig (Coussins), I am more a practitioner than thinker on the subject and some of the recent debate goes way over my head. But I feel it is a strength of the group that we have and share differing viewpoints. Whilst I find my head spinning in some of Lynn, Marco's and Chris's deeper discussions on the art element I find it refreshing that these debates occur. It certainly drives the subject into fresh avenues, and that ultimately must be good news. Well, thats my two ha'pence for what its worth. Joe ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 04:56:59 PST Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 07:56:53 -0500 (EST) From: ManFont@aol.com Reply-To: ManFont@aol.com Message-ID: <971110075652_1703608204@mrin46.mail.aol.com> To: sashai@erols.com CC: viewing_stones@triumf.ca Subject: Re: Declamations on beauty and sublimity Cris Cochrane in a message dated 97-11-09 20:11:09 EST, you write: << Sublimity as well as beauty affords disinterested pleasure and commands universal validity according to Kant. Whereas beauty depends upon the purposiveness of an object (as if pre-adapted to our judgement), sublimity is aroused by objects that seem "to do violence to the imagination." Faced by the sublime, we experience the boundless which extends beyond the form of the contemplated object as well as obliterating our self awareness. I think unspeakable horror leads us to this state of awareness as well as unspeakable beauty. >> I've been reading these related posts with interest and could not resist the temptation of jumping in ;-) These are my own meanderings on the subject: The Sublime: Any stimuli be it a stone, landscape, event (good or bad), idea, etc. that may cause an avalanche of memories and feelings (both mundane and monumental simultaneously) is the trigger for the construct we call Sublime. This chain reaction of thoughts, including subliminal ones, goes beyond the normal mental processes we employ day after day. When this "trigger" occurs we are forced to recombine and make meaning of seemingly disparate thoughts, but in the process reveal to ourselves an underlying structure/truth. The Sublime is the new found deeper awareness that emerged from the mental thought storm, Kant's "to do violence to the imagination". Do we "obliterate our self awareness" ? If we could do this, as I don't believe it is possible, we would never escape the abyss of thoughts. Self awareness, which includes our relationship to the other, is what is expanded by the experience of the Sublime. Luis Fontanills ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 08:51:38 PST Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 08:51:07 -0800 (PST) From: Lynn boyd Reply-To: Lynn boyd To: ManFont@aol.com CC: sashai@erols.com, viewing_stones@triumf.ca Subject: Re: Declamations on beauty and sublimity Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Luis, I appreciated the well-selected and carefully thought responses of yours and Chris' - and wish there was time to give and the separate space for these searches for meaning. Both of your posts contained language that is couched so that it takes a thoughtful concentrated effort for the reader to find the differences and similarities in your approachs to the subject for its further contemplation. My experience with students has been that most do not care to expend such time and the concept never fully "arrives" in their experience. One way around this is to "demonstrate" with examples that are historical or current and to which they can attach their attention. I have done this in what I have written here, and now believe that is a mistake for this medium. Though it may be done intending to arrouse a realization of a concept, it may be that unfamiliarity on an everyday level with that approach brings one a reaction not from a scholarly approach to the subject, but a reaction to the example - a totally different context and a difficult experience from which a reader must shift. Quotations from the various philosophers have shades of differences as we personally have, but there still is enough similarity to further polish a concept by using examples and gradually assimilating the experience intellectually. But, there has to a recognition of what is taking place in oneself. I think I am convinced that cannot take place in so open a forum, though I am very much aware that we have all selected very similar assumptions- , except to matter of degree and "fine tuning." Good to hear from you, Luis. Lynn ----------------- On Mon, 10 Nov 1997 ManFont@aol.com wrote: > Cris Cochrane in a message dated 97-11-09 20:11:09 EST, you write: > > << Sublimity as well as beauty affords disinterested pleasure and commands > universal validity according to Kant. Whereas beauty depends upon the > purposiveness of an object (as if pre-adapted to our judgement), sublimity > is aroused by objects that seem "to do violence to the imagination." Faced > by the sublime, we experience the boundless which extends beyond the form of > the contemplated object as well as obliterating our self awareness. I think > unspeakable horror leads us to this state of awareness as well as > unspeakable beauty. > >> > > I've been reading these related posts with interest and could not resist the > temptation of jumping in ;-) These are my own meanderings on the subject: > > The Sublime: > Any stimuli be it a stone, landscape, event (good or bad), idea, etc. that > may cause an avalanche of memories and feelings (both mundane and monumental > simultaneously) is the trigger for the construct we call Sublime. This chain > reaction of thoughts, including subliminal ones, goes beyond the normal > mental processes we employ day after day. When this "trigger" occurs we are > forced to recombine and make meaning of seemingly disparate thoughts, but in > the process reveal to ourselves an underlying structure/truth. The Sublime is > the new found deeper awareness that emerged from the mental thought storm, > Kant's "to do violence to the imagination". > > Do we "obliterate our self awareness" ? If we could do this, as I don't > believe it is possible, we would never escape the abyss of thoughts. Self > awareness, which includes our relationship to the other, is what is expanded > by the experience of the Sublime. > > Luis Fontanills > > ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 09:47:53 PST Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca From: "Chris Cochrane" Reply-To: "Chris Cochrane" To: CC: Subject: Re: Declamations on beauty and sublimity Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 12:46:27 -0500 Message-ID: <01bcee00$923838a0$f43daccf@sashai.erols.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi, Luis. Thanks for your thoughtful comments. I am further enlightened. RE' The Sublime, you write, >...When this "trigger" occurs we are forced to recombine and make > meaning of seemingly disparate thoughts, but in the process reveal > to ourselves an underlying structure/truth. The Sublime is the new > found deeper awareness that emerged from the mental thought > storm, Kant's "to do violence to the imagination". Very well said and different from my reading of the term. You see the sublime as a realization struck coming out of a transfiguring experience. I've seen it as being transfixed within the experience. Coming out of the experience, there is an awareness of a deeper reality, but I don't think it is something which I can hold or readily apply to everyday reality. I think the sublime is that experience C.S. Lewis describes in his autobiography _Surprised by Joy_ when he creates a moss garden in his youth. Peering at the garden, he imagines for a moment a perfection (sublimity) of creation where everything (his Universe) seems in its proper place and functioning in proper order according to crystal clear principles. Coming out of that momentary reverie, he yearns to return to it... and that yearning is of "joy"-- a piquant emotion so intense that he would not trade it for any other pleasure. Lewis yearns for joy, not the sublime, because he can experience that for-himself while the transfiguring experience is boundless. The sublime predicates disinterested pleasure and aesthetic judgment. >Do we "obliterate our self awareness" ? If we could do this, as I don't >believe it is possible, we would never escape the abyss of thoughts. >Self awareness, which includes our relationship to the other, is what >is expanded by the experience of the Sublime. I'd perhaps lean heavier on religious studies than aesthetic studies to support that we obliterate our recognition of self to reach communion with an a priori reality. That reality exists prior to the Self disassociating itself from the Other. In glimpsing this state, which could as easily be described as Dante's chaos in _The Inferno_, one might experience the sublime, the nirvana of non-duality in Buddhism. I apologize for the rambling of these thoughts. In two hours I leave for Italy where it will be my great pleasure to share some days with Marco Favero and his friends... and my heart is already there. Ciao... :-) Chris... C. Cochrane, mailto:sashai@erols.com, Richmond VA USA ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 10:42:49 PST Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 13:42:36 -0500 (EST) From: Mysteries@aol.com Reply-To: Mysteries@aol.com Message-ID: <971110134235_784927572@mrin79> To: viewing_stones@triumf.ca Subject: Re: Re: Declamations on beauty and sublimity This seems as good a time as any to make this announcement. My gallery in New York, Cavin-Morris Gallery is opening a show on November 20th called Grace Catches Fire; from the following quote from Martin Buber: "Whether the soul meets a loved human being or a wild landscape of heaped-up stones- from this human being, this heap of stones Grace Catches Fire." There will be seven medium stones that a backer for the show bought from a Chinese antiques dealer. I think they are lovely and strange. But they are being shown in conjunction with one of the old master self-taught artists of the US, an African-American from Chicago named Joseph Yoakum. who made these visionary and possibly mythopoetic journies around the world and recorded them in drawings made with polished colored pencil. He was an enormous influence on the whole Chicago Imagist movement. He died in the late 70's. There will be seven of his ethereal and lovely drawings juxtaposed with the stones. I can get the same depth of contemplation from his drawings of mountains and rocks that I get from the stones. I hope some of you can make it. The gallery is at 560 Broadway Room 405b New York Ny 10012 212 226-3768 FAX 212 226-0155 ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 14:02:25 PST Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 17:02:17 -0500 (EST) From: ManFont@aol.com Reply-To: ManFont@aol.com Message-ID: <971110170214_1624987129@mrin38> To: Mysteries@aol.com CC: viewing_stones@triumf.ca Subject: Grace Catches Fire Exhibit In a message dated 97-11-10 13:47:11 EST, you write: << My gallery in New York, Cavin-Morris Gallery is opening a show on November 20th called Grace Catches Fire; from the following quote from Martin Buber: "Whether the soul meets a loved human being or a wild landscape of heaped-up stones- from this human being, this heap of stones Grace Catches Fire." There will be seven medium stones that a backer for the show bought from a Chinese antiques dealer. I think they are lovely and strange. But they are being shown in conjunction with one of the old master self-taught artists of the US, an African-American from Chicago named Joseph Yoakum. who made these visionary and possibly mythopoetic journies around the world and recorded them in drawings made with polished colored pencil. He was an enormous influence on the whole Chicago Imagist movement. He died in the late 70's. There will be seven of his ethereal and lovely drawings juxtaposed with the stones. I can get the same depth of contemplation from his drawings of mountains and rocks that I get from the stones. I hope some of you can make it. >> Randal, It sounds very interesting. To bad I won't be in NY. When I was at Pratt Institute studying art and architecture, one of my all times joys was to go gallery and museum hopping with like minded friends. I really miss it. Will their be a exhibition catalog produced for this exhibit? Please contact me privately regarding this matter. The juxtaposition of the drawings with the stones should create an interesting atmosphere. Please inform the group as to the general reception and comments regarding the stones and the exhibition. Good luck! Luis Fontanills Miami, Florida ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 14:27:40 PST Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 17:27:24 -0500 (EST) From: ManFont@aol.com Reply-To: ManFont@aol.com Message-ID: <971110172722_1670111184@mrin51.mail.aol.com> To: viewing_stones@triumf.ca Subject: Viewing Stone Juxtapositions Fellow Stoners ;-), Some food for thought; In Felix Riviera's book "Suiseki ..." there is a twin spired (2 separate stones on a single base), ensemble (plate 10). This juxtaposition is both powerful and rich. Why can't this form of display be expanded to include dissimilar stones that play off one another to create a new entity (Gestalt). For example; A low horizontal smooth stone juxtaposed with a vertical textured one,and so on? I see no reason other than the fear of manipulating and controlling a greater complexity, or its unconventionality. This same idea could be used to relate the stone to its base. Brancusi, the artist, was a master at this very type of juxtaposition; a smooth polished abstracted object (marble or brass) on a rough hewn sculptural wood base. The interplay becomes greater than the sum of its parts (Gestalt). Just some ideas related to possible innovation in the art of viewing stones. Sincerely, Luis Fontanills Miami, Florida ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 06:02:56 PST Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 09:02:44 -0500 (EST) From: ManFont@aol.com Reply-To: ManFont@aol.com Message-ID: <971111090243_243917053@mrin43.mail.aol.com> To: viewing_stones@triumf.ca Subject: Re: Viewing Stone Juxtapositions (Corrigendum) In a message dated 97-11-10 17:28:14 EST, I write: <> brass should read ......bronze Luis Fontanills ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 07:29:16 PST Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca Message-ID: <346883F4.739652EC@admin1.coosa.tec.ga.us> Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 10:12:36 -0600 From: Alan McDougle Reply-To: Alan McDougle MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Bill Sikes CC: Craig Coussins , Lynn boyd , viewing_stones@triumf.ca Subject: Re: ANSWER TO MARCO - BEAUTY/SUBLIME IN AESTHETICS References: <346689DF.E69B7C92@surfsouth.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Please do not email this address again. The student that sat here last quater is the one you are tring to reach, not me. I don't even read the messages, I just trash them. Thank you. Bill Sikes wrote: > Craig Coussins wrote: > > > OK GUYS, > > Lets get back to Suiseki, Rocks or Stones. The undoubted intellectual > > capabilities of some of you are quite staggering but for us lesser > > mortals > > with only a modicum of etymological understanding..after all who but a > > nut > > case collects stones as a hobby...(joke please..no response is > > required) it > > is better to keep the discussions to a slightly more ground level > > discussion rather than a cerebral one...Oh God I am also catching this > > > > disease!!! > > > > How about a discussion relating to displaying stones in a Tokonama, > > outdoor > > bench or exhibition. Is it better to display a few stones rather than > > a > > whole rockery and while I am at it, this concept of watering the > > stone; I > > find that it quickly becomes encrusted with algaes in my wet > > climate...like > > a fishtank that is kept near a window! > > > > Craig C. > > Hello, Craig! > > I appreciate your down-to-earthedness. I would, please, like to make > one more comment regarding our recent conversation. > > I find the entirity of the philosophical aspects of the Existence of > Rock and Stone to be quite exhilarating. I believe that this is my > personal approach to learning about a subject that, while appearing to > be quite simple on the surface, is truly boundless in its depth. > > When we discuss the visual arts, we must always remember that each > individual sees things entirely as they relate to his or her own > personal universe. > > For example, "What is Blue?" > > One answers, "This beautiful flower is Blue." And I say, "Yes, to me > that also is Blue, but, tell me then, What is Blue?" > > I realize that this is probably a very naive level of appreciation, but > I will grow. > > And, by the way, I think Blue-green Algae are quite beautiful, even if > they are just slime! ; ) > > Bill > -- > Bill Sikes mailto:bjra@surfsouth.com > Member, South Georgia Bonsai Club, USA USDA Zone 8 > > The Bonsai Shop & Nursery "Extraordinary by Nature" > 2061 East Oleander Avenue > Coolidge, GA 31738 1-912-346-3345 ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 16:37:41 PST Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca Message-ID: <3468FAB0.68F6B741@surfsouth.com> Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 19:39:14 -0500 From: Bill Sikes Reply-To: Bill Sikes MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Alan McDougle , viewing_stones@triumf.ca Subject: How to Stop Getting These Messages References: <346689DF.E69B7C92@surfsouth.com> <346883F4.739652EC@admin1.coosa.tec.ga.us> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear Mr. McDougle, These messages come from a list server that automatically sends incoming email out to all the email addresses subscribed. In order to stop these messages, please click here mailto:viewing_stones@triumf.ca This will address a message to the list. As the body of your message type unsubscribe This should cause the list server to remove your email address from the list. Thank you for your patience and cooperation. Sorry for any inconvenience this may have caused you. -- Bill Sikes mailto:bjra@surfsouth.com ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 09:11:22 PST Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca From: "Craig J. Hunt" Reply-To: "Craig J. Hunt" To: "Lynn boyd" , "Melissa Roseborough" CC: Subject: Re: unsubscribe Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 09:12:34 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lynn boyd wrote; > Try sending to Craig Hunt@triumf.ca Actually, my email is craig@triumf.ca Melissa Roseborough asked; > > Unsubscribe me from: Viewing Stones Aesthetics Mailing List The correct address to send "subscribe" & "signoff" requests to is; viewing_stones-request@triumf.ca Craig J. Hunt in Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada http://www.triumf.ca/people/craig/craig.htm ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 10:41:01 PST Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca From: "Craig J. Hunt" Reply-To: "Craig J. Hunt" To: "Bill Sikes" , "Alan McDougle" , Subject: ADMIN, Re: How to Stop Getting These Messages Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 10:42:15 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bill Sikes wrote; > These messages come from a list server that automatically sends incoming > email out to all the email addresses subscribed. > > In order to stop these messages, please click here > mailto:viewing_stones@triumf.ca > This will address a message to the list. > > As the body of your message type unsubscribe > > This should cause the list server to remove your email address from the > list. This is incorrect. The correct admin address for this mail list is; viewing_stones-request@triumf.ca The text for the message is; signoff Craig J. Hunt in Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada http://www.triumf.ca/people/craig/craig.htm ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 06:26:17 PST Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca Message-ID: <346B1834.964F7F47@admin1.coosa.tec.ga.us> Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 09:09:40 -0600 From: stu10 Reply-To: stu10 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: viewing_stones@triumf.ca Subject: unsubscribe Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Unsubscribe ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 10:20:00 PST Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 10:35:59 +0700 To: viewing_stones@triumf.ca From: joyca@igc.org (Joyca Cunnan) Reply-To: joyca@igc.org (Joyca Cunnan) Subject: unsubscribe unsubscribe ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 09:20:51 PST Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19971124090928.0068dd64@oberon.ark.com> Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 09:09:28 -0700 To: viewing_stones@triumf.ca From: Anton Nijhuis Reply-To: Anton Nijhuis Subject: Declamations on beauty and sublimity References: <971110075652_1703608204@mrin46.mail.aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" So quiet, I was enjoying the discourse on sublimity and beauty. I would like to say it has helped me along in my creative attempts. Since the last posting about two weeks ago I carved four dia, still learning how to do it I threw away three (took off too much wood) so I started seven to make four. The point is I really think I understand what was said and the discussions have given me many inspirations or better worded 'understandings' of what it is that attracts me to a particular rock. By putting together the past discussions and some of the correspondence that I have gotten from Lynn I have came upon a profound discovery. Simple but profound to me. I posted earlier on how I relate to the geology of a rock (stone being a classification of size, pebble, stone, boulder etc.) and how it influences me aestheticly . I like to call this scientific aesthetics and is just another form of enjoying rocks. I also understand Japanese aesthetics and realize that all of us in this group have a strong identification or understanding of these aesthetics. Whether we agree with them or not does not really matter but I think all of us in this group understand. What has been so profound to me was that I was looking at some of the local British Columbia native art and noticed the changes in the art from 100 years ago to today. 100 years ago native people had no written language, now they have english and english phonetics to write the spoken language. This has changed their art forever. I am not going to judge if this is good or bad just that there are great differences. With sublimity, beauty and metaphor in my mind I suddenly undertand what art is all about. It is about communication, the real purpose of art is for us to communicate to each other. So simple, something I knew but never realized until Chris, Lynn and Marco started discussing sublimity and beauty. So I would like to thank all for the inspirations and please don't stop now! p.s. I could use some help in starting my dia I have trouble getting the outline on the wood. I tried Joe's idea with the plasticine but still can not get it right. Anton Nijhuis Vancouver Island ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 09:59:21 PST Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca Message-ID: <34788AD0.3083@sheltonbbs.com> Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 11:58:08 -0800 From: Denny Nolan Reply-To: dnolan@sheltonbbs.com MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Anton Nijhuis CC: viewing_stones@triumf.ca Subject: Re: Declamations on beauty and sublimity References: <971110075652_1703608204@mrin46.mail.aol.com> <3.0.1.32.19971124090928.0068dd64@oberon.ark.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Anton Nijhuis wrote: > > snip> > > I was enjoying the discourse on sublimity and beauty. I would like to say > it has helped me along in my creative attempts. > Since the last posting about two weeks ago I carved four dia, still > learning how to do it I threw away three (took off too much wood) so I > started seven to make four. > snip> > p.s. I could use some help in starting my dia I have trouble getting the > outline on the wood. I tried Joe's idea with the plasticine but still can > not get it right. > > I will offer how I do it. Maybe others would like to try it. The secret to my sucess is using a carbon media to make the impression of the stone's bottom, which can later be washed off. I start with an outline as close to the stone as possible because I do not use plasticine or any other type of epoxy. I totally carve out the wood to make the impression of the rock. I start by cuttin straight down inside the outline about 1/8" to 1/4" then start to carve the reverse contour by putting a little carbon powder on the bottom of the stone to mark the highpoints, then I cut out the marked area left by the carbon. The key for me is to make the stone fit first then finish the design of the stand. By always fitting the stone to the wood first, if I do scrap it, I do not have as much time invested. I have some examples of how my stands are carved to fit on my suiseki pages which are linked from my site below. If any of you think this information would be helpfull to the masses. I would consider putting a little write-up on my suiseki page. -- May all your trees be priceless... Mr Denny Visit Mr Denny's Bonsai Page at: http://www.sheltonbbs.com/~dnolan ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 20:03:26 PST Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 20:03:13 -0800 (PST) From: Lynn boyd Reply-To: Lynn boyd To: viewing_stones@triumf.ca CC: Anton Nijhuis , Craig Coussins Subject: RE; SO QUIET Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Anton, you wrote: So quiet, I was enjoying the discourse on sublimity and beauty. I would like to say it has helped me along in my creative attempts. . . .snip. . . The point is I really think I understand what was said and the discussions have given me many inspirations or better worded 'understandings' of what it is that attracts me to a particular rock. By putting together the past discussions and some of the correspondence that I have gotten from Lynn I have come upon a profound discovery. Simple but profound to me. . . . snip . . . With sublimity, beauty and metaphor in my mind I suddenly undertand what art is all about. So simple, something I knew, but never realized until Chris, Lynn and Marco started discussing sublimity and beauty. So I would like to thank all for the inspirations and please don't stop now! ----------------- Anton Nijhuis Vancouver Island ----------------- Anton: I think the fear is that you may be a minority. :) Nothing stops Chris, Marco and Lynn. And we take our turns at moderating one another. We also shift and moderate our thought structures sometimes and that takes time, because starting with basic assumptions and building that persuasion or argument does not come about quickly. Right now Chris is visiting Marco in Italy -stone hunting-for one thing, and I cannot doubt doing some wrangling on our subject matter. I hope so for the fun of it and understanding gained. I imagine that when Chris returns we will hear of his visit in this forum. His expected return is next week. Following that I would like to see some discussion of the art of displaying rocks. We all want to display our rocks. And I am hoping that Randall will tell us further of his recent exhibit in his gallery and his display - what he may or may not do differently another time. Craig Coussins first mentioned this to me and at the time I thought it would be interesting to follow up. I have had too much to pursue elsewhere to urge it into discussion. Also, I know Chris is well-acquainted with kei do,-the art of display- and would like to see his return and what he would offer on the subject as anything I know of it is through his references. Lynn ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 20:34:12 PST Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 20:33:55 -0800 (PST) From: Lynn boyd Reply-To: Lynn boyd To: viewing_stones@triumf.ca CC: dnolan@sheltonbbs.com Subject: DAI MAKING was Declamations on Beauty & Sublimity Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Anton Nijhuis wrote: > snip> > > p.s. I could use some help in starting my dai I have trouble getting the outline on the wood. I tried Joe's idea with the plasticine but still can not get it right. Denny Nolan wrote: . . .long snip of good information . . . (see below) If this information would be helpful to the masses. I would consider putting a little write-up on my suiseki page. ------------------ Denny: Please do. Though several pages have similar information, each is slightly different and it helps to have these choices of procedure. I could understand that Anton may like to try more than one approach. I probably will, then between them find a combination that suits me - provided I have any fingers left. Lynn boyd@peak.org Corvallis, OR ----------------- From dnolan@sheltonbbs.comSun Nov 23 10:06:02 1997 Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 11:58:08 -0800 ------------------------------snipped > > I will offer how I do it. Maybe others would like to try it. The secret to my sucess is using a carbon media to make the impression of the stone's bottom, which can later be washed off. I start with an outline as close to the stone as possible because I do not use plasticine or any other type of epoxy. I totally carve out the wood to make the impression of the rock. I start by cuttin straight down inside the outline about 1/8" to 1/4" then start to carve the reverse contour by putting a little carbon powder on the bottom of the stone to mark the highpoints, then I cut out the marked area left by the carbon. The key for me is to make the stone fit first then finish the design of the stand. By always fitting the stone to the wood first, if I do scrap it, I do not have as much time invested. I have some examples of how my stands are carved to fit on my suiseki pages which are linked from my site below. If any of you think this information would be helpfull to the masses. I would consider putting a little write-up on my suiseki page. -- May all your trees be priceless... Mr Denny Visit Mr Denny's Bonsai Page at: http://www.sheltonbbs.com/~dnolan