Archive-Date: Sun, 01 Feb 1998 15:02:52 PST Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca Message-ID: <34D4B952.5479@scsn.net> Date: Sun, 01 Feb 1998 18:05:11 +0000 From: John and Kay Geanangel Reply-To: jcg@scsn.net MIME-Version: 1.0 To: viewing_stones@triumf.ca Subject: unsubscribe Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit unsubscribe ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 02 Feb 1998 09:41:30 PST Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca From: "Chris Cochrane" Reply-To: "Chris Cochrane" To: CC: Subject: Re: [Art BANTER] RE' The Stone Show Date: Mon, 2 Feb 1998 12:35:06 -0500 Message-ID: <01bd3000$e68a52c0$783daccf@sashai.erols.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thanks for your comments on both your own show and your experience at the Armory Show, Randall. When I read Luis's response, it recalled for me a recent post on the aesthetics mail list written by Bruce Attah. Even his postscript on the question of acceptance of photography as art may be relevant for consideration of viewing stones by vendors of fine arts. I doubt Bruce has any idea that folks have formed a newsgroup to talk about displaying individual stones based on their evocative shapes, but his comments help me see the lay of the land for art critics more clearly. _________________________________________________ _________________________________________________ -----Original Message----- From: Bruce Attah To: aesthetics-l@indiana.edu Date: Thursday, January 29, 1998 6:15 PM Subject: [AE] Art and Vases James Harbeck ... the idea "vase" is useful because >there are few borderline cases; we tend to have a clear agreement >on what a vase looks like and what it's for. (Artists, of course, tend to >test the limits of such things; ceramic artists in particular I'd like to begin my response by saying that 'testing the limits of such things' is an entrenched habit, not of artists in the main, but of avant-gardists - i.e., of those who are trained (or should I say, indoctrinated) into the belief that such 'testing' is their main job. For the rest, while they may experiment, they rarely aim to provoke debate about whether or not what they make is art. It happens that an artist trying to provoke discussion over the status of his or her work as art is in a similar position to a vintner trying to provoke discussion over whether his or her produce is wine: in both cases, the most reliable strategy is to create a product so bad that it is a borderline example of its class. So it is that the art made with this aim tends to please very few except those whose chief pleasure in looking at it comes from asking the question 'what is art?'. Recognizing this, we can more easily see why there are fewer borderline cases of 'vaseness' than of 'art': the overwhelming majority of vases are bought to serve as vases, not as provocations to contemplation of the essence of vase nature. That said, there are lots of things that are not borderline cases of art. Returning to the ordinary usage that lay at the center of my earlier posts, we know that most people have no real doubt about the artistic status any of the following: (1) The M40 between London and Oxford, (2) A blue whale, (3) The Indian subcontinent, or (4) The rain in Scarborough. None of those, in ordinary parlance is art. Nor about would most agonize over whether any of the the following are art: (1) Michelangelo's Pieta, (2) Beethoven's Ninth, (3) Shakespeare's Romeo and Juliet, or (4) Delaroche's Death of Lady Jane Grey. These all quite plainly are. However, plenty of people would express doubts about the following: (1) a slick, mass-produced, quasi-impressionist landscape, (2) a simple arrangement of building bricks, (3) a snippet of verse that seems banal, hackneyed and clumsy, (4) an upturned urinal signed 'R. Mutt'. There is something important about these doubtful cases: they all possess some, but not all, of the properties of what is ordinarily called art. Basically, they are all (at least minimally) artefacts, and all have been presented for aesthetic appreciation, but they all fail to persuade some members of the audience that there is serious aesthetic intent or any significant aesthetic merit inherent in them. As I am sure you recall, I offered four definitions of art: (1) Skill, (2) aesthetically motivated artefacts, (3) aesthetically successful artefacts, and (4) 'Visual art'. Debate about whether something is art or not is usually debate about whether it is art(2) or art(3) - i.e., about whether it is good enough to deserve attention. Sometimes the question arises as to whether the thing is even art(2). Questions about whether the artist is 'kidding' or 'just doing it for the money/notoriety/whatever', are questions of this kind. Rarely, there is a question about whether a thing presented as art is art(1). Such questions arise in circumstances like the following: recently (and perhaps was it to this list?) there was a posting that an artist was going to include several stars, up in the skies, in his or her artwork: they were being ostended as part of it. I believe that this sort of thing happens when people try to give practical application to definitions of art that radically deviate from ordinary usage -- definitions that have been cooked up in the heads of philosophers and critics. In this particular case, it seems that someone has noticed that ostension ('showing', to plain folks like myself) is a very important feature of art -- and has leapt from that to a definition of art as little more than the mere act of showing. It's a common enough mistake. People have defined art as 'expression', for instance, through a similar error. Others have wound up defining art as 'representation'. But though on the way to such definitions, writers have made astute enough observations, the definitions themselves are about as wrong as a leap from the observation that one has never seen a person without a nose to a definition of human beings as noses. Ordinary usage makes it clear that art status is a matter of degree. some things are not art because they are not simply good enough; they are 'failed attempts', 'okay for a beginner', perhaps. Others are not art because the aesthetic intention was not to the fore in the artists' mind; they are 'pot-boilers' or 'insincere efforts'. It is not surprising, therefore, that most people most of the time are agreed on what sorts of reason should be employed to justify a claim that something is or is not art. Even critics familiar with some of the strange definitions of art that are currently doing the rounds know that they must attest to the sincerety of the artists they champion, and to the beauty, perspicacity etc. of their works. So, even when two people hold opposite opinions about a particular work, such as the snippet of verse cut from a magazine and attached to the fridge door, they are not: simply speaking different languages, as it were. They each know what sorts of thing they would have to do to persuade the other (whether or not success is feasible), because there is a great deal in common between their different ways of experiencing and evaluating the work. They probably even both know whose position is stronger, and why. PS: the ostension of nonworked objects has long been part of art. Shall we deny photography? Photography's slightly shaky status as a 'fine art' has to do precisely with the common suspicion that what it offers may be little more than mere ostension. Therefore photographers who lay claim to be making art are at pains to stress the technique, invention and imagination required for what they do. -- Bruce Attah ____________________________________________________ In asking to repost Bruce's post, he asked that I post this addition: >I don't mind if you repost my article, but please don't think that my >opinions are in anyway representative of the critical mainstream. I >certainly don't. Hey, I'm not even a critic (except in the sense that >everyone is). As to whether collecting and displaying stones counts >as art, is this really something to worry about? I would tend to think >that it was not an art in the way that, say, painting and literature >are, but that doesn't mean that I would think it was not worth doing, or >that such an exhibition would not be worth seeing. Whether >something is art and whether it is a worthwhile activity are two >separate questions. _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ Thank you, Bruce. Thanks, again, Randall! Chris... C. Cochrane, mailto:sashai@erols.com, Richmond VA USA ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 02 Feb 1998 10:42:19 PST Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca From: "Craig Coussins" Reply-To: "Craig Coussins" To: Subject: The art of 'Stone? Date: Mon, 2 Feb 1998 18:36:55 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: The article written into the Viewing Stone chat is very interesting as it probably expresses most intelligent persons attitude towards art, While displaying inanimate objects on a plinth in a setting or space can also be called 'possibly' art, it is precisely this that we do with Suiseki. Natural Art such as the stem of a Bristlecone Pine, a stone in a pot etc can all be art, depending on its presentation. Japanese Gardens are art as they show a planned approach to design using natural materials. I exclude artifacts from this example and give you a moss garden, or a simple bamboo grove. Each paid out by the hand of man in an 'artistic' manner. So it is with lumps of stone, provenance or not. I will be mounting a small suiseki display at a major show in spring and while the display will comprise about twenty stones, many will be on individually designed plinths and be lit, hopefully, by directional spots to enhance the stones highlights and shadows. Is this then art. Well possibly not as far as the stones are concerned but the placement and display is art. The stones are indeed of top quality but they are 'new stones' and without age except in mineralogical terms. I see what I see in a stone and it is still natures art, not my own. I may clean the stone, make a plinth and give it a nice area to sit but for me it is how it is placed and with what it is placed before I call a suiseki 'ART' With over two thousand stones to select from I will pick the 20 I like for this display but if any of you chose 20 then I am quite sure that you would see something in other stones that appeal to you..So it is with all things. It is your choice. Art as the modern establishment suggests is divided into many facets. I collect Patrick Hughes and other 'POP' artists while Damian Hirst is an artist I always feel cut up about! Maurice Saatchi may give the avant garde artist the space to display their attempts at form or non form but I still prefer something that is recognisable as art...my opinion also counts as well as Riopelle's, Dine's or Rothko's for that matter. I do not deny that a pile of bricks is art but I would not have them in my house. I therefor agree that many people, the vast majority I think, would think one crazy to pay $50,000.oo for a stone no matter what the provenance. We may like it and wish we could have it but that is a subjective thing. Suiseki is not art in my opinion but lies between the understanding of what is art and the personal appreciation of art. Suiseki or viewing stones have always been stones that you can focus your mind on to aid in meditation. We in the west have apparently elevated this simple raison'd'etre in the stone to a piece of merchandise. And so the Japanese, Koreans and Chinese will supply the material as we wish ...for a price. I collect as usual and find the joy in looking for a suiseki or buying or exchanging with other collectors to expand my stones. Altho I use one or two for meditation I simply like the look of my stones and dot them all over the place. Its still not art in itself but perhaps by placing a stone beside that 200 year old Scots Pine, you know, the stone that looks like a small group of mountains, I can visualize the highlands of Scotland where the tree was originally found. Maybe that's the art bit of the excercise. The ESA magazine is a well produced small magazine that covers many aspects of Suiseki in English. Membership fees are 50 DM per year and include 4 issues. It is well worth a one year trial. The address of the European Suiseki Association is as follows: E.S.A., Gudrun and Willi Benz, Karlsruher Strasse, 101, D 69775, Ketsch, Germany. Tel/Fax: 06202/65901 North America your exit code and the code for Germany dropping the relevant first 0 or other numbers. Yours sincerely, Craig Coussins. Site is at: http://www.btinternet.com/~craig.coussins/ or ask any search browser for Craig Coussins ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 02 Feb 1998 10:48:54 PST Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca From: "Craig Coussins" Reply-To: "Craig Coussins" To: Subject: The art of 'Stone? Date: Mon, 2 Feb 1998 18:36:55 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: The article written into the Viewing Stone chat is very interesting as it probably expresses most intelligent persons attitude towards art, While displaying inanimate objects on a plinth in a setting or space can also be called 'possibly' art, it is precisely this that we do with Suiseki. Natural Art such as the stem of a Bristlecone Pine, a stone in a pot etc can all be art, depending on its presentation. Japanese Gardens are art as they show a planned approach to design using natural materials. I exclude artifacts from this example and give you a moss garden, or a simple bamboo grove. Each paid out by the hand of man in an 'artistic' manner. So it is with lumps of stone, provenance or not. I will be mounting a small suiseki display at a major show in spring and while the display will comprise about twenty stones, many will be on individually designed plinths and be lit, hopefully, by directional spots to enhance the stones highlights and shadows. Is this then art. Well possibly not as far as the stones are concerned but the placement and display is art. The stones are indeed of top quality but they are 'new stones' and without age except in mineralogical terms. I see what I see in a stone and it is still natures art, not my own. I may clean the stone, make a plinth and give it a nice area to sit but for me it is how it is placed and with what it is placed before I call a suiseki 'ART' With over two thousand stones to select from I will pick the 20 I like for this display but if any of you chose 20 then I am quite sure that you would see something in other stones that appeal to you..So it is with all things. It is your choice. Art as the modern establishment suggests is divided into many facets. I collect Patrick Hughes and other 'POP' artists while Damian Hirst is an artist I always feel cut up about! Maurice Saatchi may give the avant garde artist the space to display their attempts at form or non form but I still prefer something that is recognisable as art...my opinion also counts as well as Riopelle's, Dine's or Rothko's for that matter. I do not deny that a pile of bricks is art but I would not have them in my house. I therefor agree that many people, the vast majority I think, would think one crazy to pay $50,000.oo for a stone no matter what the provenance. We may like it and wish we could have it but that is a subjective thing. Suiseki is not art in my opinion but lies between the understanding of what is art and the personal appreciation of art. Suiseki or viewing stones have always been stones that you can focus your mind on to aid in meditation. We in the west have apparently elevated this simple raison'd'etre in the stone to a piece of merchandise. And so the Japanese, Koreans and Chinese will supply the material as we wish ...for a price. I collect as usual and find the joy in looking for a suiseki or buying or exchanging with other collectors to expand my stones. Altho I use one or two for meditation I simply like the look of my stones and dot them all over the place. Its still not art in itself but perhaps by placing a stone beside that 200 year old Scots Pine, you know, the stone that looks like a small group of mountains, I can visualize the highlands of Scotland where the tree was originally found. Maybe that's the art bit of the excercise. The ESA magazine is a well produced small magazine that covers many aspects of Suiseki in English. Membership fees are 50 DM per year and include 4 issues. It is well worth a one year trial. The address of the European Suiseki Association is as follows: E.S.A., Gudrun and Willi Benz, Karlsruher Strasse, 101, D 69775, Ketsch, Germany. Tel/Fax: 06202/65901 North America your exit code and the code for Germany dropping the relevant first 0 or other numbers. Yours sincerely, Craig Coussins. Site is at: http://www.btinternet.com/~craig.coussins/ or ask any search browser for Craig Coussins ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 02 Feb 1998 14:13:17 PST Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19980202230639.007e8740@inrete.it> Date: Mon, 02 Feb 1998 23:06:39 +0100 To: viewing_stones@triumf.ca From: marco favero Reply-To: marco favero Subject: Felix Rivera:His New Email Address. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hi Folks, for who is interested to know the new EMAIL address of Felix Rivera,i notice that it is the follow: felixr@dnai.com hope this helps. marco ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 02 Feb 1998 16:15:06 PST Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca From: "Chris Cochrane" Reply-To: "Chris Cochrane" To: Subject: RE: The Art of the Stone Date: Mon, 2 Feb 1998 19:08:36 -0500 Message-ID: <01bd3037$dfaf8b00$783daccf@sashai.erols.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_007F_01BD300D.F6D98300" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_007F_01BD300D.F6D98300 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Craig. =20 Thanks for wading in on the subject of "art" as it relates to suiseki. = You write, >...While displaying inanimate objects on a plinth in a setting or space >can also be called 'possibly' art, it is precisely this that we do with >Suiseki. Natural Art such as the stem of a Bristlecone Pine, a stone=20 >in a pot etc can all be art, depending on its presentation. Japanese=20 >Gardens are art as they show a planned approach to design using=20 >natural materials. I exclude artifacts from this example and give you >a moss garden, or a simple bamboo grove. Each paid out by the hand >of man in an 'artistic' manner. So it is with lumps of stone, = provenance >or not. While the concept "Natural Art" encompasses a set of objects that are = greatly appreciated aesthetically, doesn't it refer a set of objects in = much greater number than those commonly called "art"... ??? Suiseki = rightly seems grouped within this large set. > ... I = will be mounting a small >suiseki display at a major show in spring and while the display will >comprise about twenty stones, many will be on individually designed=20 >plinths and be lit, hopefully, by directional spots to enhance the=20 >stones highlights and shadows. We'll have spotlights available for the Bonsai & Penjing Museum viewing = stone display that has now been scheduled for July 11-19. I'd love to = see your display, & hope you'll share how you use lighting. I also hope to hear from more internetters about displaying their stones = (collected or otherwise), coming to the event in Washington DC USA, = participating or leading lectures, and offering display expertise. > ... Is this then art. Well possibly not as far as the >stones are concerned but the placement and display is art. Then, is anything sincerely displayed with the intent of showing beauty = considered "art," or is art only achieved when the display is of a = certain quality. Would a poor display be "bad art" ...? Does one design suiseki displays as an artist or a critic? An artist = decides success in achieving beauty at every moment of his creative = process which is not a critical activity. His approach distinguishes = the way an artist works from the way an incompetent student in an = art-school works. What a student learns in art-school is not so much to = paint as to watch himself paint; thus he raises the psycho-physical = activity of painting to the level of art... consciously converting it from a physical experience into an = imaginative one. In creating a display, does the designer unfold his = creative energy or critically review what works to draw an emotional = response?=20 >I see what I see in a stone... I will pick the 20 I like for this >display but if any of you chose 20 then I am quite sure that >you would see something in other stones that appeal to=20 >you..So it is with all things. It is your choice. While each person has an individual experience of beauty, art is not = evoked by the experience of an individual in any culture. Art is = culturally derived. >Art as the modern establishment suggests is divided into many facets... >I still prefer something that is recognizable as art...my opinion also >counts as well as Riopelle's, Dine's or Rothko's for that matter. Opinion counts as opinion... informed opinion (as deemed by cultural = assent) counts most in establishing societal norms for beauty, which = differ among societies. >I do not deny that a pile of bricks is art but I would not have them in = my >house. At little risk of offense, I deny that a pile of bricks is art. I think = Bruce Attah well-explained why it is what it is. >Suiseki is not art in my opinion but lies between the understanding of=20 >what is art and the personal appreciation of art. It seems to me to have some semblance with "performance art" or = photography (as Bruce describes photography's limitation as art). >Suiseki or viewing stones have always been stones that you can focus=20 >our mind on to aid in meditation... Its still not art in itself but = perhaps by >placing a stone beside that 200 year old Scots Pine, you know, the = stone >that looks like a small group of mountains, I can visualize the = highlands=20 >of Scotland where the tree was originally found. Maybe that's the art = bit=20 >of the excercise. ... and the quasi-religious bit, as well... :-)... As Marco explained = the=20 phenomenology of Husserl, man seeks a cultural relation with objects = that may be seen as "becoming" themselves. A suiseki is thus "acting like a suiseki" and the viewer can be engaged by (the) "deliberate relation between experience which learns and the specificity of (the) = experience's object which offers." As Howdy would say, "That's keen!" Very best wishes, Chris... C. Cochrane, mailto:sashai@erols.com, Richmond VA USA ------=_NextPart_000_007F_01BD300D.F6D98300 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Craig.   
 
Thanks for wading in on the subject of "art" as it = relates to=20 suiseki.  You write,
>...While displaying inanimate objects = on a=20 plinth in a setting or space
>can also be called 'possibly' art, = it is=20 precisely this that we do with
>Suiseki.  Natural Art such as = the=20 stem of a Bristlecone Pine, a stone  
>in a pot etc can all be art, depending on its presentation. = Japanese=20
>Gardens are art as they show a planned approach to design using =
>natural materials. I exclude artifacts from this example and = give=20 you
>a moss garden, or a simple bamboo grove. Each paid out by the=20 hand
>of man in an 'artistic' manner. So it is with lumps of stone,=20 provenance
>or not.

While the concept "Natural Art" = encompasses a=20 set of objects that are greatly appreciated aesthetically, doesn't it = refer a=20 set of objects in much greater number than those commonly called=20 "art"... ???  Suiseki rightly
seems grouped within = this large=20 set.

>         &nb= sp;           &nbs= p;            = ;            =             &= nbsp;      =20 ... I will be mounting a small
>suiseki display at a major show in = spring=20 and while the display will
>comprise about twenty stones, many = will be on=20 individually designed  
>plinths and be lit, hopefully, by directional spots to enhance = the=20
>stones highlights and shadows.

We'll have spotlights = available=20 for the Bonsai & Penjing Museum viewing stone display that has now = been=20 scheduled for July 11-19.  I'd love to see your display, & hope = you'll=20 share how you use lighting.

I also hope to hear from more = internetters=20 about displaying their stones (collected or otherwise), coming to the = event in=20 Washington DC USA, participating or leading lectures, and offering = display=20 expertise.

>        &nb= sp;      =20 ... Is this then art. Well possibly not as far as the
>stones are=20 concerned but the placement and display is art.

Then, is anything = sincerely displayed with the intent of showing beauty considered=20 "art," or is art only achieved when the display is of a = certain=20 quality.  Would a poor display be "bad art" = ...?

Does one=20 design suiseki displays as an artist or a critic?   An artist = decides=20 success in achieving beauty at every moment of his creative process = which is not=20 a critical activity.  His approach distinguishes the way an artist = works=20 from the way an incompetent student in an art-school works.  What a = student=20 learns in art-school is not so much to paint as to watch himself paint; = thus he=20 raises the psycho-physical activity of painting to the level
of = art...=20 consciously converting it from a physical experience into an imaginative = one.  In creating a display, does the designer unfold his creative = energy=20 or critically review what works to draw an emotional response? =

>I see=20 what I see in a stone... I will pick the 20 I like for this 
>display but if any of you chose 20 then I am quite sure = that
>you would see something in other stones that appeal to
>you..So it is with all things.  It is your = choice.

While=20 each person has an individual experience of beauty, art is not evoked by = the=20 experience of an individual in any culture.  Art is culturally=20 derived.

>Art as the modern establishment suggests is divided = into=20 many facets...
>I still prefer something that is recognizable as = art...my=20 opinion also
>counts as well as Riopelle's, Dine's or Rothko's for = that=20 matter.

Opinion counts as opinion... informed opinion (as deemed = by=20 cultural assent) counts most in establishing societal norms for beauty, = which=20 differ among societies.

>I do not deny that a pile of bricks = is art=20 but I would not have them in my
>house.

At little risk of = offense,=20 I deny that a pile of bricks is art.  I think Bruce Attah = well-explained=20 why it is what it is.

>Suiseki is not art in my opinion but = lies=20 between the understanding of  
>what is art and the personal appreciation of art.

It = seems to me=20 to have some semblance with "performance art" or photography = (as Bruce=20 describes photography's limitation as art).

>Suiseki or = viewing stones=20 have always been stones that you can focus  
>our mind on to aid in meditation... Its still not art in itself = but=20 perhaps by
>placing a stone beside that 200 year old Scots Pine, = you know,=20 the stone 
>that looks like a small group of mountains, I can visualize the = highlands
>of Scotland where the tree was originally found. Maybe that's = the art=20 bit
>of the excercise.

... and the quasi-religious bit, as = well...=20 :-)...    As Marco explained the  
phenomenology of Husserl, man seeks a cultural relation with = objects=20 that
may be seen as "becoming" themselves.  A suiseki is = thus=20 "acting like a
suiseki" and the viewer can be engaged by (the) = "deliberate=20 relation
between experience which learns and the specificity of (the) = experience's
object which offers."

As Howdy would say,=20 "That's keen!" 

Very best = wishes,
Chris... C. Cochrane, mailto:sashai@erols.com, Richmond = VA=20 USA
 
 
------=_NextPart_000_007F_01BD300D.F6D98300-- ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sat, 07 Feb 1998 11:24:35 PST Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca From: Mysteries@aol.com Reply-To: Mysteries@aol.com Message-ID: <9504e54.34dcb4e2@aol.com> Date: Sat, 7 Feb 1998 14:24:15 EST To: viewing_stones@triumf.ca MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: ? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Am i still subscribed? r. ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sat, 07 Feb 1998 16:44:28 PST Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19980207081815.00692784@oberon.ark.com> Date: Sat, 07 Feb 1998 08:18:15 -0800 To: From: Anton Nijhuis Reply-To: Anton Nijhuis Subject: Re: Muriatic acid MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Other methods that I use for cleaning rocks are; Vinegar - same as muriatic but weaker Cold water (must be cold for chlorine to work) bleach overnite works quite well TSP - trisodium phosphate - overnite soaking Anton Nijhuis Vancouver Island ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sat, 07 Feb 1998 16:44:35 PST Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19980207163445.00692784@oberon.ark.com> Date: Sat, 07 Feb 1998 16:34:45 -0800 To: From: Anton Nijhuis Reply-To: Anton Nijhuis Subject: Worlds Within Worlds MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I just finished reading 'Worlds Within Worlds' and it is interesting to note that some of the limestone is classified as 'sparite'. This would mean that some of the rocks displayed in the Rosenblum collection are formed chemically within the original rock formation. Sparite is defined as " limestone rock largely composed of allochems". Allochems are defined as sediments derived from chemical precipitations of the orginal rock formation. These rocks are formed probably in limestone caves as broken pieces and chemically cemented together. Microsparite would have smaller grain sizes in the rock and would be classified as stalagmites and stalacites. After being reformed these rocks would be again exposed to erosion to repeat the cycle of erosion and deposition. Some of these rocks could be several generations of erosion and deposition. What I find interesting about this is that limestone is a sedimentary rock - meaning a rock formed by sediment deposits and undergone minor metamorphism with a specific calcium carbonate content. Sparite is the sediment precipitation of these original limestones, truly making these rocks Worlds Within Worlds. I will have to fine tune my rock hunting to look for redeposited sparites in limestone formations, to look for rocks within rocks. It is this fine grain structure and other inclusions that give the outstanding texture of the Rosenblum collection. Anton Nijhuis Vancouver Island ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sat, 07 Feb 1998 17:04:51 PST Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca Date: Sat, 7 Feb 1998 17:04:43 -0800 (PST) From: Lynn boyd Reply-To: Lynn boyd To: viewing_stones@triumf.ca CC: Anton Nijhuis Subject: Re: Worlds Within Worlds Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII from Anton Nijhuis: (snip from fine post) > What I find interesting about this is that limestone is a sedimentary rock > - meaning a rock formed by sediment deposits and undergone minor > metamorphism with a specific calcium carbonate content. Sparite is the > sediment precipitation of these original limestones, truly making these > rocks Worlds Within Worlds. > > I will have to fine tune my rock hunting to look for redeposited sparites > in limestone formations, to look for rocks within rocks. It is this fine > grain structure and other inclusions that give the outstanding texture of > the Rosenblum collection. > Anton Nijhuis > Vancouver Island > ---------------------- Anton, Will be most interested in hearing about your results from fine-tuning the hunt. I believe I have a trip planned in that direction just about to be timed with this discovery. :)))) Very nice thought of an actual physical presence of Worlds within Worlds to go with the philosophic. Enjoyed this post very much. Lynn ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sat, 07 Feb 1998 21:15:22 PST Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca To: Mysteries@aol.com CC: viewing_stones@triumf.ca Date: Sat, 7 Feb 1998 22:56:02 +0000 Subject: Re: ? Message-ID: <19980207.231414.3286.5.norbalt@juno.com> References: <9504e54.34dcb4e2@aol.com> From: norbalt@juno.com Reply-To: norbalt@juno.com I got your message. God Bless and Keep You and Yours, Regards from Pawnee America Tom La Bron Home E-Mail: norbalt@juno.com Office E-Mail: norbal@okway.okstate.edu Good manners have much to do with the emotions. To make them ring true, one must feel them, not merely exhibit them. Amy Vanderbilt (1908-74), ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ On Sat, 7 Feb 1998 14:24:15 EST Mysteries@aol.com writes: >Am i still subscribed? > >r. > _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sat, 07 Feb 1998 21:15:49 PST Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca To: ibonsai@oberon.ark.com CC: viewing_stones@triumf.ca Date: Sat, 7 Feb 1998 23:11:42 +0000 Subject: Re: Muriatic acid Message-ID: <19980207.231414.3286.7.norbalt@juno.com> References: <3.0.1.32.19980207081815.00692784@oberon.ark.com> From: norbalt@juno.com Reply-To: norbalt@juno.com Anton, Sorry, but Vinegar is Acetic Acid, an organic acid (CH3COOH) in a weak form and Muriatic Acid is and Inorganic Acid (HCl) which is Hydrochloric Acid in a weaken form. God Bless and Keep You and Yours, Regards from Pawnee America Tom La Bron Home E-Mail: norbalt@juno.com Office E-Mail: norbal@okway.okstate.edu Good manners have much to do with the emotions. To make them ring true, one must feel them, not merely exhibit them. Amy Vanderbilt (1908-74), ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ On Sat, 07 Feb 1998 08:18:15 -0800 Anton Nijhuis writes: >Other methods that I use for cleaning rocks are; > >Vinegar - same as muriatic but weaker >Cold water (must be cold for chlorine to work) bleach overnite works >quite >well >TSP - trisodium phosphate - overnite soaking >Anton Nijhuis >Vancouver Island > _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sun, 08 Feb 1998 08:22:11 PST Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19980208081248.0068eeec@oberon.ark.com> Date: Sun, 08 Feb 1998 08:12:48 -0800 To: From: Anton Nijhuis Reply-To: Anton Nijhuis Subject: Re: Muriatic acid MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > Sorry, but Vinegar is Acetic Acid, an organic acid (CH3COOH) in a >weak form and Muriatic Acid is and Inorganic Acid (HCl) which is >Hydrochloric Acid in a weaken form. I realize that but the reactions are still the same, Muriatic being the the trade name for 5% (I think) HCL. When testing clacium carbonate rocks I used to carry two small vials, one with Muriactic and one with vinegar, I could tell the degree of metaphorphism of a carbonate rock by the degree of reaction with each of acids, eg. dolomite would react with Muriactic but not acetic or vinegar. Sorry to infer that they are the same acids but only meant they can create the same reactions and vinegar can a safer way to clean rocks - safer meaning it will do less damage to the rock. Anton Nijhuis Vancouver Island ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sun, 08 Feb 1998 13:25:30 PST Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca From: "Chris Cochrane" Reply-To: "Chris Cochrane" To: Subject: Re' Muriatic acid & sparite Date: Sun, 8 Feb 1998 16:17:58 -0500 Message-ID: <01bd34d7$07bece00$473eaccf@sashai.erols.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Anton writes on using Muriatic acid and vinegar, > ... <...SNIP...> I >could tell the degree of metaphorphism of a carbonate >rock by the degree of reaction with each of acids, eg. >dolomite would react with Muriactic but not acetic or >vinegar. Thanks for the great info' on identifying rock by acid reactions as well as the previous post on sparite. Could sparite (the sediment precipitation of original limestones) be the material which is characterized as Liguruian palumbini. Because the material is found within clay deposits and exists primarily in an identifiable layer below ground level, it would seem that it is reformed rather than distributed haphazardly from compressed soils that rose with the formation of the Ligurian Alps. I have had further experience in using muriatic acid (diluted from its purchased 34% hydrocloric acid solution). As I wrote previously, for a light clay covering on palumbini limestone, 1 cup of acid to 20 cups of water (5%) works fine in cleaning the stone and leaving a mostly glossy patina after 1-2 hours. Since writing that, I've tried cleaning palumbini stones with considerably more clay covering. Especially where the clay is characterized by deep rifts in its surface, more than a 24 hour soaking is necessary. It is also necessary to increase the acid strength until it at least begins to bubble (the bubbles look like water simmering just before it turns into a fish-eye size boil). At the stronger concentration and more lengthy soaking time, the stone does not have that reflective surface-- so the acid might be reacting with the limestone itself or minute particles of the clay might be redepositing on the limestone. In any case, rubbing my hands with baby oil (or mineral oil) and then rubbing the stone immediately revives the surface to a reflective (perhaps semi-gloss) patina. Perhaps it is because of reverence for the hidden palombini stone's patina that several Italian collectors (Chiara Padrini, Luciana Quierolo & Andrea Schenone) clean them using steel brushes on electronic tools rather the easier approach of soaking in acid. Perhaps Marco can find out more re' acid with these stones? Luis Fontanills tells me muriatic acid is commonly available to clean swimming pools as well as for use by painters. Chris... C. Cochrane, mailto:sashai@erols.com, Richmond VA USA ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sun, 08 Feb 1998 14:51:04 PST Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca Reply-To: "marco favero" From: "marco favero" To: "Chris Cochrane" , Subject: R: Re' Muriatic acid & sparite Date: Sun, 8 Feb 1998 23:49:06 +0100 Message-ID: <01bd34e3$db4821c0$140874c2@local.inrete.it> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Chris,you wrote answering to Anton: >Thanks for the great info' on identifying rock by acid reactions as well as >the previous post on sparite. Could sparite (the sediment precipitation of >original limestones) be the material which is characterized as Liguruian >palumbini. Because the material is found within clay deposits and exists >primarily in an identifiable layer below ground level, it would seem that it >is reformed rather than distributed haphazardly from compressed soils that >rose with the formation of the Ligurian Alps. i think like you have seen that there are only veins of limestone,not all Ligurian hills or mountains have those layers,it is necessary search and recognize the strata where you can found the palombini;i think this process is haphazardy. >I have had further experience in using muriatic acid (diluted from its >purchased 34% hydrocloric acid solution). As I wrote previously, for a >light clay covering on palumbini limestone, 1 cup of acid to 20 cups of >water (5%) works fine in cleaning the stone and leaving a mostly glossy >patina after 1-2 hours. Since writing that, I've tried cleaning palumbini >stones with considerably more clay covering. Especially where the clay is >characterized by deep rifts in its surface, more than a 24 hour soaking is >necessary. It is also necessary to increase the acid strength until it at >least begins to bubble (the bubbles look like water simmering just before it >turns into a fish-eye size boil). At the stronger concentration and more >lengthy soaking time, the stone does not have that reflective surface-- so >the acid might be reacting with the limestone itself or minute particles of >the clay might be redepositing on the limestone. In any case, rubbing my >hands with baby oil (or mineral oil) and then rubbing the stone immediately >revives the surface to a reflective (perhaps semi-gloss) patina. Perhaps it >is because of reverence for the hidden palombini stone's patina that several >Italian collectors (Chiara Padrini, Luciana Quierolo & Andrea Schenone) >clean them using steel brushes on electronic tools rather the easier >approach of soaking in acid. > >Perhaps Marco can find out more re' acid with these stones? i spoken of oxalic acid because many mineralogists clean minerals with it and i add the right level of acid little by little; when i see the reaction of clay with acid(size boil)then i wait the needed time to take away the stone.Recently speaking with Luciana she said me that the best patina was,as Craig Coussins told in a previous post,with neutral polish shoes oil(not cream). oxalic acid reacts with clay and does precipitate it: Acid Oxalic is COOH-COOH (organic acid) with clay which includes many organic particles reacts,but it reacts also with calcite(limestone),for this reason it is necessary to control this process,and besides oxalic acid is a weak acid,i prefer to use it rather than muriatic which is strong.i find it in colours's shop here. reacting with calcite it is possible that it cleans better stone and gives a better patina too. Ligurian collectors use not this way because they fear to spoil beautiful stones,they prefer manual cleaning with steel brushes,you can control better your work,but it is impossible to take away all fine limestone into rock's slits >Luis Fontanills tells me muriatic acid is commonly available to clean >swimming pools as well as for use by painters. we use it for to uncork obturated sinks. my cousin who is mineralogist cleans minerals also with hydrogen peroxide to 130 vol.,i use it in my work but it is too expensive if you have a big stone,i think it reacts with organic clay's material. hope this helps a bit. Marco Gaijin Ronin favero@inrete,it http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acropolis/5418/ Torino(Italy) Zone 7-8. [Non annosa uno quercus deciditur ictu]. ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sun, 08 Feb 1998 14:56:03 PST Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca Date: Sun, 8 Feb 1998 14:55:45 -0800 (PST) From: Lynn boyd Reply-To: Lynn boyd To: viewing_stones@triumf.ca CC: Chris Cochrane , Joe Davies Subject: Re Sulphuric Acid Cleaning Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII To follow Chris' Muriatic (hydrachloric) acid and vinegar rock cleaning, with my own new experience, quite different: I just this morning received some limestone rocks, from Anton's area, that have been cleaned in acid. These are quite large for me to consider purchasing and handling the acid baths needed to clean them of a quite thick and impenetrable coating of grayish sediment, therefore, my son took them to the Mitsubishi plant where he has res- ponsibility for the systems and chemicals used to clean and begin the preparation of discs of material to become com- puter chips. These baths are of a strength unobtainable by anyone with- out certain licensing, so I am able to see rocks emerge from a bath of sulphuric acid at a 95 percent solution, possibly a ph of one, in a short time. The acid has been used for the plant's purpose before my rocks are privileged to have it for their bath, but it is still strong enough to watch the processing bubble and appear to boil for minutes. After two five minute dips, with a change to a new bath as the ph level drops in the first, a rock comes out with a new surface almost black, but still with a enough of the sediment left in streaks and holes to give accent and character to the rocks' holes and fissures. I could not do the job of cleaning these with an electric polisher nor acid baths that would compare to what is done this way. So, I am grateful for the opportunity, because I have about 7-8 rocks, some football sized, that now await my selection of those worthy of further refinement and a dai. Others to be used in penjing. I have no idea how this treatment would be viewed by a person with more experience and more knowledge of the aesthetic results, but I would like to hear if this is an insult to the more sensitive of us?? It seems to me that I am seeing a great deal more in the new contrasts in the surface color and finish and that my imagination is much more intrigued by a more complex interpretation of what I am viewing. In my ignorance I am happy with it. I was shown the surface of a disc of chip material (silicon?) dipped in hydrafluoric acid (scary stuff!) that had been smoothed by the process, where I would have expected to find a pitted surface. I am curious now about a rock dipped in the hydrafluoric bath, which I am told would be a matter of seconds of time. BTW, I am not allowed in this enclosed area -but can view it through a window. :( Surrounded by "new" stones, Lynn PS: Be assured this was pretested with a sample rock. ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 09 Feb 1998 02:16:07 PST Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca Reply-To: From: "Joe Davies" To: "Lynn boyd" , CC: "Chris Cochrane" Subject: Re: Re Sulphuric Acid Cleaning Date: Mon, 9 Feb 1998 10:11:59 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: In regard to the recent postings on rock cleaning..... Over the years I have used the following agents for cleaning stones: household detergents mixed with water, HCl acid (at various strengths), Vinegar, Steel and brass brushes (both as drill attachments and hand tools), tumbling (in a lapidary tumbling machine), a commercial sand-blaster (really!), bleach (concentrated and diluted), brick cleaner (which is probably HCl), moss and algae cleaners, brass cleaners, silver cleaners, and a host of other items that escape my ageing memory at this time. I have used the following 'finishes': neutral shoe polish (wax not cream), almost every oil in the household (peanut, groundnut, olive etc), woodworking oils such as Antique Oil, Danish Oil, washing-up liquid detergent, beeswax, and again others which escape me at the moment. I think I have experimented with just about anything I can get my hands on, my conclusions are as follows:- - No cleaning is best. Sometimes the removal of caked on mud and algae etc is a necessity but I have found perseverance with soaking in water for days and regular scrubbing with brushes and a toothbrush for the nooks and crannies, gives good results on most (but not all) stones. - No finish other than hand rubbing is best. Again there are times when a finish is desireable because without it the stone would not be worth displaying, I certainly have no hesitation is using a 'finish' if this is the case, but I prefer when possible to only hand-rub. - Beware the 'patina' introduced to stones like the Ligurian through the use of high speed steel brushes. The action deposits a thin layer of steel onto the stone, THIS is the resultant appeance - metallic, it is 'artificial' and really doesnt do justice to the wonderful stones from this region. - There is no 'set' combination of cleaning agents/finish that works well with each stone. Experimentation is the key. Regards Joe ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 16:38:17 PST Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca Reply-To: From: "Joe Davies" To: Subject: Worlds Within Worlds Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 22:44:24 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: I'm planning to visit the Rosenblum exhibition in Zurich, scheduled for May/June time this year. A few questions of those who may be able to advise, please ignore if you cant! - Anyone know the roads of Europe i.e. getting from France to Zurich? (I can get lost driving to our local corner shop) - Anyone planning to visit the WWW exhibition? - Anyone have an email id for Pius Notter? Thanks Joe ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 11:51:00 PST Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca Reply-To: "marco favero" From: "marco favero" To: , Subject: R: Worlds Within Worlds Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 20:47:45 +0100 Message-ID: <01bd3ca6$2dfc7780$120874c2@local.inrete.it> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Joe, also we in Italy are planning to visit Rosenblum exibition in Zurich with all suiseki lovers;for now we have not still fixed the exact dates,if you want join us you will be Welcome. i can explain you the right roads for to go to Zurich,but you must tell m= e where you will begin your trip in French,please email me directly,thanks. i don't know the email address of Pius Notter,but i know that my friends Chiara and Luciana need to visit him in that circumstance also why he has been near them at the end of October. let me know,please. marco *************************************************************************= *** *********** -----Messaggio originale----- Da: Joe Davies A: viewing_stones@triumf.ca Data: marted=EC 17 febbraio 1998 1.41 Oggetto: Worlds Within Worlds >I'm planning to visit the Rosenblum exhibition in Zurich, scheduled for >May/June time this year. A few questions of those who may be able to >advise, please ignore if you cant! > >- Anyone know the roads of Europe i.e. getting from France to Zurich? (I >can get lost driving to our local corner shop) > >- Anyone planning to visit the WWW exhibition? > >- Anyone have an email id for Pius Notter? > >Thanks >Joe > > ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 13:43:30 PST Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca From: "Chris Cochrane" Reply-To: "Chris Cochrane" To: CC: Subject: a few thoughts Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 16:35:31 -0500 Message-ID: <01bd3cb5$23a05860$513faccf@sashai.erols.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I recently saw the first edition of ARTS IN ASIA magazine for the year. It generally focuses on antiques passing through salesroom though as an arts magazine it also comments on new exhibitions. One full-page advertisement from Blue Moon Jade (in Willets CA, I think) on page 45 displayed only a multicolored stone on a simple modern stand. There was no explanation for the stone otherr than its title-- "Jade Mountain River." This stone was not exceptionally different from those I see in local rivers and I doubt it had much heritage. The cost of that advertisement must have been extraordinary. Those who publish advertisements such as this should be encouraged to say something of the heritage of the stone. Seeing it without further description of provenance leaves the impression a recently collected stone is being offered as an antique. Ralph Chait in New York has advertised antique stones with clear descriptions, and hopefully others will. Enthusiasts should demand better descriptions. ---- At a holiday auction this year, I received an old copy of of Bonsai in California (Vol. 21, 1987). Beginning on page 55, Larry Ragle had written an article on suiseki that was wonderful, though I didn't get to read the ending which was to be published in the next issue (*if anyone has that issue, I'd surely like to read Larry's further thoughts!). Among other things, Larry noted that members of the California Aiseki Kai had agreed to adopt the most rigid standards of suiseki as their benchmark while acknowledging that it is entirely acceptable to possess and display stones that do not meet this standard. What somewhat surprised me was that the first standard he listed for a classic suiseki is that it should be small-- "easily held in one hand." Certainly most of the revered Japanese suiseki that I have seen pictured are not able to be held easily in one hand. The Covello/Yoshimura text is a great resource to see Japanese suiseki sizes. Interestingly, they are defined in size by their height-- even if height is not their most significant dimension. In the text of Melba Tucker, who is well known for her very small stones, she writes that a stone should be capable of carrying in one or two hands. In the Felix Rivera's text, categories of suiseki are listed that range up to the "Ogata" size of 24" (60 cm) or more. Suiseki donated along with trees from Japan to the National Bonsai Collection, however, include stones this large. John Naka doesn't mention size or identify suiseki by size in his _Bonsai Techniques II_ text, but his "10,000-foot Beard" (hope I got that right) stone donated to the North American Viewingstone Collection is a hefty 2-hand in size. It is a California stone, I think, so perhaps all bounds of size are acceptable. I'd sure hatre to miss seeing those Rivera, English, Quinn, Gould et al. often large (& often cut) stones coming from California collection sites. Could Larry have been referring to a classic suiseki convention that predates many the Japanese suiseki we now find published? Has anyone published a summary of classic suiseki, meiheki (famous stone), yuraiseki (historical stones) or even antique suiseki conventions in English? I have heard Joe Davies's friend Dave Sampson is very knowledgable on antique suiseki. ------- I saw a copy of Willi Benz suiseki text that I must own. It has great collections of viewingstones from numerous sources including those of Andre Schenone. The copy I saw was owned privately. In its German appendices were listed Japanese aesthetic terms, among other items, that are applied to stones. Of course the standard wabi, sabi, shibui, yugen were listed. So was another term (it could have been "yurai") of which I made note, then misplaced the note... :-( Could someone with the book please share with me either the commentary on the term as written in German, or better yet... a translation of the term? I am slowly working on a lexicon for Japanese aesthetics to satisfy my own understanding ----- If you haven't seen it, Felix Rivera has a dynamic new suiseki site at http://www.felixrivera-suiseki.com/. His "suiseki" letters logo reminds me much of Joe Davies's suseki letters logo that was designed in Bryce2 to reflect its sunken image in water. One of you is going to have to break the mold... ;-) BTW, he has included pics from numerous sources and has a suiseki for sale page. ----- Luciana Queirolo (formerly Garbini) has a marvelous 45 minute video on collecting stones in Italy's Liguria region entitled "La Pietra Dura (The Stone Alive)." She has asked me to look into the costs of re-recording the VHS tape from a European (PAL) to a USA (NTSC) format. This would be inexpensive except for translating the spoken Italian text into English. That IS expensive, but Luciana would prefer distributing the tape as complete as possible for the listener. An alternative is perhaps to subtitle the tape (also relatively expensive) or to send a hardcopy or of the text in English to accompany the Italian audio. The musical and visual transitions in this tape are of the highest order of lyric balance. The only related hobbiest tape that comes close is the very professional two-volume Kei Do tapes that were professionally produced in Japan. If mail list readers will share with me their interest in this tape, I'll be better able to advise Luciana on going forward with distributing it. I think the original Italian tape costs about $22 in Europe. I would think the tape without integral translation into English could be distributed for considerably less, here. With an integral translation, volume of sales would have to be assessed to determine if a similar price could be maintained. Please let me know your thoughts as well as thoughts of other viewing stone enthusiasts who might be interested. ------- Thanks for providing us this forum, Craig! Hope I haven't broken etiquette in discussing Luciana's video... ;-) Best wishes, Chris... C. Cochrane, mailto:sashai@erols.com, Richmond VA USA ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 17:30:36 PST Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca Reply-To: From: "Joe Davies" To: "Chris Cochrane" , Subject: Re: a few thoughts Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 01:25:36 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: Chris and friends... > I saw a copy of Willi Benz suiseki text that I must own. It has great > collections of viewingstones from numerous sources including those of Andre > Schenone. The copy I saw was owned privately. If you are referring to his book 'Suiseki by Willi Benz' written in German, I believe you can order it direct from Willi. He publishes his address in the book, so I see no formal reason not to share it with you. Its:- Willi Benz Karlsruher Strasse 101 D 68775 Ketch GERMANY I do not know the price of the book as Willi gave me a copy as a gift (nice chap), but I'm sure if you write he will let you know. For those of you that don't have it Pius Notter's book is also worth getting, features many stones from his private collection and those of Martin Pauli. Don't forget Felix Rivera's book, though I am sure most of you have it already, but if not then try and get a copy - info is available about it on Felix's site two lines down.... > Luciana Queirolo (formerly Garbini) has a marvelous 45 minute video on > collecting stones in Italy's Liguria region entitled "La Pietra Dura (The > Stone Alive)." She has asked me to look into the costs of re-recording the > VHS tape from a European (PAL) to a USA (NTSC) format. This would be > inexpensive except for translating the spoken Italian text into English. > That IS expensive, but Luciana would prefer distributing the tape as > complete as possible for the listener. An alternative is perhaps to > subtitle the tape (also relatively expensive) or to send a hardcopy or of > the text in English to accompany the Italian audio. > > The musical and visual transitions in this tape are of the highest order of > lyric balance. The only related hobbiest tape that comes close is the very > professional two-volume Kei Do tapes that were professionally produced in > Japan. If mail list readers will share with me their interest in this tape, > I'll be better able to advise Luciana on going forward with distributing it. > I think the original Italian tape costs about $22 in Europe. I would think > the tape without integral translation into English could be distributed for > considerably less, here. With an integral translation, volume of sales > would have to be assessed to determine if a similar price could be > maintained. > > Please let me know your thoughts as well as thoughts of other viewing stone > enthusiasts who might be interested. Luciana's video is BRILLIANT, if you are interested in the participant aspects of the subject GET IT! Don't worry about the commentary in Italian, the lack of an English commentary doesnt really detract as the quality of photography, music and general production values are superb. Allied to some wonderful images of Ligurian suiseki it really is a must. One thing we are blessed with in Suiseki is that whilst the number of books and videos is small, the quality of them all is excellent. Joe ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 21:46:32 PST Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: viewing_stones@triumf.ca From: John Quinn Reply-To: John Quinn Subject: a few thoughts Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 22:03:17 -0800 Message-ID: <06031729219580@metro.net> Last weekend I went to the Arts of Pacific Asia Show - "an international fine art and antique fair" - in San Francisco and was able to see several vendors' offerings first hand. Mr. Russell Satter, President of Blue Moon Jade (Willits,Ca - 2 hr. No. of S.F.) was there and had numerous examples of the stones he offers for sale. The jade is beautiful and he advises that it comes from his property "up in Trinity" - No. Calif. Primarily it is, or at least what I saw, a botryoidal form. There was also a piece or two that I believe came from Jade Cove - a collecting site midway in Calif on the coast. Also had some highly polished stones. I didn't think they were very special other than the price. Also represented were three stones of Chinese origin - one "old", two "new" in the $2000 t0 $3000 range. One stone was quite nice. This was in the booth of The Zentner Collection - a company in Emeryville, Ca(next door to Beserkley). There were two other vendors with, in my opinion, mediocre material but unbelievable prices - $7500+, a few in the $5000 range. Most were highly polished, had bad diaza, and were called suiseki but were not. It appears that there is a lack of knowledge about this art form and it appears that a lot of things that combine stone and wood are called suiseki. Other than the stones in the Zentner booth, I think all the other offerings were new - I know, I know, rocks are millions and millions of years old - don't start the "what is age" thing again. As to the size of stones, anyone that reviews Aisekinomoto (monthly magazine out of Japan) can easily see that many of the stones certainly pushe the one hand "standard" - page 10 - size 60x20x9cm, page 8 - 21x100x23cm, page 4 - 45x5x18cm -Issue No. 1 - 1998. I think those L.A. standards are fine for that area - they don't have very big rivers. jrq ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 07:17:14 PST Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca From: "Chris Cochrane" Reply-To: "Chris Cochrane" To: , Subject: Thoughts on cutting Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 10:08:48 -0500 Message-ID: <01bd3e11$87c458c0$d33daccf@sashai.erols.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Joe Davies just asked me my thoughts on stone cutting. I guess we've been communicating in some odd cyberspace mystic realm because that has recently been on my mind. I've found that mediocre stones that I've cut because they would otherwise be substantially big rounded pebbles with one interesting end now have no value to me whatsoever. I've paid $10.00 each to have several stones (most of one-hand size after cutting) cut, with the risk being mine if they broke or chipped. I planning to use several for lecture illustration purposes and then give them away at the US National Arboretum suiseki event in July. These stones have personal associative value because of being collected with friends in the Pacific NW, but other stones create the same associations more powerfully. I am really ashamed to have taken an interesting stone sitting on a lovely beach, carried it across a continent, cut it and created kitsch. It purports to be artistic, but carries no true emotional or artistic merit for me, now. On the other hand, I collected one beautiful black stone on that same venture with a distinguished peak overlooking a long flat plane. Opposite the peak/plain end which would certainly be the upturned portion, this stone was a classic, big-rolled pebble shape-- perfectly rounded-- as well as quite deep. Because that stone could never be set naturally to expose its wonderful contours unless one built a table with a false bottom-- the Scottish display technique <... TEASING, CraigC... :-)...>, I was determined to have it cut. The same $10 cutter did the job, but I was unwilling to risk his cut being the final cut so had it cut deeper than my preference. Now, I have a beautiful stone that makes my vision soar in a half-completed dai. It is like a bowl half-full/half-empty. Should I take the numerous hours to complete the dai for a stone that is already cut but could be cut again to show even better? Probably not. Finding a cutter is a real task and this stone might travel back to the West coast (where friends have access to good stone cutters) before returning to the East Coast. I wish this stone was earning frequent flyer miles! I purchased a cut stone in Italy this past year. It was the only cut stone that I saw in Luciana & Chiara farmhouse stock of stones for sale. I did not want a cut stone... but when I saw it, it reached out and grabbed me... and I could hardly look away from that stone to see the others. Certainly Luciana must have felt the merchant's glee as I was transfixed. She and Chiara looked at each other, Chiara noted that Luciana had to pay for this relatively large stone to be cut... I sweated elephant tears, gulped, asked the price... they hesitated... I thought, "Please, God, don't let them change their minds on selling it!"... I had nothing to worry about in terms of financial exchange. I was Marco's friend and a friend of suiseki. Luciana & Chiara were so happy for me-- though I'm sure they wondered how I had become too overwrought to "shop" further. They charged a modest price for a great stone that had been cut with care by a knowledgeable craftsman at the precise angle chosen through Luciana's artist eye. "Mille gracie," my Italian friends. On that trip I spoke at length with Marco, Luciana & Chiara about cutting stones among other things. They left me with the impression that since landscape stones are normally flat-bottomed in Liguria, they are glad to take advantage of that and appreciate the stone as-found as the sincerest form of collection and display. They believe that is consistent with Japanese suiseki aesthetics. At least one (I wish I could remember which) noted that if protruding knobs on the bottom of the stone caused seating problems, it would be within the Japanese aesthetic perameters to reduce the knobs. The bottom of large, flat stones with extremely diverse top portions among Japanese stones donated to the US National Bonsai and Penjing Collection were certified by Yuji Yoshimura as uncut. They do vary in underside swales more than the flat-bottomed stones I saw in Liguria. Feeling along edges of the bottom of the stones when they were recently demonstrated in that marvelous lecture of Assistant Curator Dan Chiplis, I would think these stones have natural protrusions... but as the best among the best, they each sit incredibly flat in their suiban. I am very curious when the best approaches beyond belief, but I think the Japanese-inspired enthusiasms often require that only the uncommonly good is acceptable. An article published by Norry Kirschten (then President of the European Suiseki Association) quoted Arishige Matsuura (President of Nippon Suiseki Association) as stating, "Cutting the underpart of a stone destroys the value of a suiseki. These stones are of inferior quality and may only be used as decorations with bonsai or creations of saikei." Norry goers on to say, "To cut or not to cut, that is NO question." If we are making distinctions about what qualify as "suiseki," there seem to be differences of opinion. Californians typically cut gorgeous ends off of stones that could not otherwise be displayed artfully. Canadian and East Coast USA collectors commonly cut stones that cannot otherwise be displayed artfully and occasionally get two suiseki from one stone. Collector enthusiasts who are dealers from throughout USA insists at symposia (e.g., ABS Fall Symposia 1996) that most Japanese stones have been altered by cutting, but I have yet to be convinced. I am very pleased to see Felix Rivera speak of aiseki (stones valued for personal satisfaction) on his new website as no one could disagree that some cut stones are visually stimulating. Of course the purist looking for the spirit of the stone in as-found art might be so aghast at the desecration, but I certainly wouldn't want to alienate myself from the joy of responding to artfully presented stones whether cut or not. I guess the important question is, what should one do when faced with the option of collecting or not, cutting or not, artistic presentation or not. It is a personal decision to face whenever a stone attracts and it seems to change dynamics constantly. It is saddening that to be aligned with either of the options tends to alienate conversation among people sharing an otherwise gratifying experience through stone viewing. Thanks for the question, Joe... Chris... C. Cochrane, mailto:sashai@erols.com, Richmond VA USA ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 09:52:20 PST Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca From: "Chris Cochrane" Reply-To: "Chris Cochrane" To: "John Quinn" , Subject: Vendors, Aisekinomoto [was: Re: a few thoughts] Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 12:44:04 -0500 Message-ID: <01bd3e27$22cf4ea0$cc3daccf@sashai.erols.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi John. You write, > Last weekend I went to the Arts of Pacific Asia Show - "an >international fine art and antique fair" - in San Francisco and was able to >see several vendors' offerings... Blue Moon Jade... Jade Cove... >The Zentner Collection Thanks for a great post on an area I didn't know existed-- sale of naturally contoured mounted stones in California art festivals by art studios. Do you know if these studios or others maintain storefront operations? Blue Moon Jade's recently advertised "Jade Mountain River" stone couldn't hold a candle to your stones that I've seen published. Felix shows a gorgeous example on his new site... http://www.felixrivera-suiseki.com/casuisekisoc.html > As to the size of stones, anyone that reviews Aisekinomoto (monthly >magazine out of Japan) can easily see that many of the stones certainly >pushe the one hand "standard" - page 10 - size 60x20x9cm, page 8 - >21x100x23cm, page 4 - 45x5x18cm -Issue No. 1 - 1998. Can you please share with us details on obtaining such a publication? Probably only affordable to a Northern Californian, but the rest of us can dream... <...GRIN...> Thanks, again, John. Chris... C. Cochrane, mailto:sashai@erols.com, Richmond VA USA ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sun, 22 Feb 1998 08:21:34 PST Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19980221073253.0068d84c@oberon.ark.com> Date: Sat, 21 Feb 1998 07:32:53 -0800 To: From: Anton Nijhuis Reply-To: Anton Nijhuis Subject: Re: Thoughts on cutting MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I think you are missing the fun out of cutting a stone and an entire creative process by not doing it yourself. A simple and easy way to do this is to buy yourself a good diamond blade, they come in different sizes and types. 'Target' is the best known company that sells commercial diamond saws and blades. You can get a blade for under $100 and will last many cuts, the diamonds slowly wear on each cut. The saw can be rented for as little as $25 to $35 per day from an industrial rental shop. There are many types and sizes of saws, tile saw, masonry saw etc. They all work but it is best to buy the blade that will do the job best for you. The rental shops really charge for any damage to the blade. You can cut a lot of rock in a half a day. Anton Nijhuis Vancouver Island ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sun, 22 Feb 1998 14:19:24 PST Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca From: "Craig Coussins" Reply-To: "Craig Coussins" To: "Anton Nijhuis" , Subject: Re: Thoughts on cutting Date: Sun, 22 Feb 1998 22:17:42 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: We should have the Cutting Suiseki Web Club and the Non Cutting Web Club.......are cut stones still rearing their ugly head again?? Collecting Suiseki has clearly two fields of understanding. One that cuts and one that does not cut. I am now in the group that prefers uncut natural Suiseki as they are infinitely more difficult to find than slicing the end of a boulder. Anyone can do that. Its not everyone that can search, locate and bring back a true uncut natural Stone of rare beauty. Soon we will get to the point where the previous notes about Antique dealers selling overpriced colored boulders and calling them Scholars stones. Just because someone bought a stone as a rare old viewing stone then finds that sometime a person cut a hole in it or cut a little bit of it in the past does not suggest that its alright to cut stones. Just a thought and please, no offense to Anton. Yours sincerely, Craig Coussins. Site is at: http://www.btinternet.com/~craig.coussins/ or ask any search browser for Craig Coussins ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sun, 22 Feb 1998 19:29:38 PST Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca Date: Sun, 22 Feb 1998 19:29:32 -0800 (PST) From: Lynn boyd Reply-To: Lynn boyd To: viewing_stones@triumf.ca Subject: RE: Cutting versus no-cutting Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII What I should like to ask to be considered is the necessity for newcomers to stone art being allowed some experience with all types of stones before persuasion in the form of negative criticism is put before them in such a positive manner as to intim- idate them. As a newcomer, comparatively, I have only my long exper- ience in the arts and study of aesthetic values and as a teacher to encourage me in my pursuit. I have the strength of conviction enough to continue to experience the aestheses or emotional reactions I have to a stone without viewing it through someone else's eyes. I know full-well the value some people place on the uncut stone, and it sounds idealistic and has a purity in its presentation. Admitted. I know the the fascination I can occasionally feel for a cut stone that someone was able to view in its uncut form and en- vision the possibility it could become an aesthetic object of beauty to them. I have some admiration for that ability to envision the change of form and care enough to do it, thus adding their personal nature to the stone. I am acquainted somewhat with the history and cultural conventions that surround stones. I am, also, acquainted with the alteration and gradual change in conventions as values change and swing with periods of time. Like the permanence of the Latin language some conventions have become of permanent value to some people for what they represent in the continuity of man and art. Opposing that is the just-as-important action that causes one artist at some point to alter one convention to enhance or to bring into focus a new value present in his culture or within himself. The prevalence of opposing views of the arts is one of the values of it. It allows a place for everyone's stage of experience and permits growth in one's appreciation to happen with a representation of other viewpoints. When an experienced and respected viewing stone person speaks I listen with fairly avid attention and give it a lot of thought. Everything said fits into the dialectic somewhere. However, I await my personal experience to let me experience the feeling (EMOTION!) a stone evokes in me, and having listened well I place new values con- tinually in the reactions I have. I have changed, but not enough to want this group to dissolve into two groups one for cut, one for uncut stones, as I am still learning and, as yet, want to hear from BOTH aesthetic responses. When two groups are needed this has taken place: One of the two viewpoints has become exclusive in its position and posits a superior attitude excluding the other as lesser. Anyone with knowledge of language knows the attacks will now carry the divided art into sides as war does. The defensive, offensive attacks begin. It is possible to consider the whole business in the form of a linear dialectic - one pole being those who do not cut, the other pole being those who do. Behold ! No sides - no war, just simply a position in an inclusive and permisive dialectic that lets others move about on the scale until their position is found where their viewpoint suits their temperment, their intelligence about the art, their emotional aesthetic experiences and their familiarity with art language enough to be comfortable while the next plateau of their development is maturing. We have at our disposal the beautiful displays of numerous suiseki web sites, of text of material from experts in the art, of books. I am familiar with these - but am I in any position to say I have matured in this art? - good grief, I am struggling with my first stones, experiencing through their good graces and love of beauty my most basic reactions. Having said the above I wish to thank Chris Cochrane, Anton Nujhuis, Craig Cousins for their very recent posts, and to thank those others, like Joe Davies, who continually privately advise me some paths to consider, and, knowing my preference for open-minded participation are accepting of my slow-growing and wavering perspective, often even showing an unnatural patience . . :) Lynn ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sun, 22 Feb 1998 19:48:26 PST Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca Message-ID: <000a01bd400d$d270c400$1f1260c6@default> From: "Malcolm Miller" Reply-To: "Malcolm Miller" To: "Lynn boyd" , Subject: Re: Cutting versus no-cutting Date: Sun, 22 Feb 1998 22:47:41 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I just wrote a message of similar disposition which did not seem to make it through the cyber/etherspace. I too am a fledgling (even more so) but am most interested in continuing to hear the full range of thoughts/opinions/value judgements. Thanks, Lynn for expressing the position most eloquently. Malcolm -----Original Message----- From: Lynn boyd To: viewing_stones@triumf.ca Date: February 22, 1998 10:35 PM Subject: RE: Cutting versus no-cutting > > > > What I should like to ask to be considered is the > necessity for newcomers to stone art being allowed > some experience with all types of stones before > persuasion in the form of negative criticism is > put before them in such a positive manner as to intim- > idate them. > > As a newcomer, comparatively, I have only my long exper- > ience in the arts and study of aesthetic values and as > a teacher to encourage me in my pursuit. > I have the strength of conviction enough to continue > to experience the aestheses or emotional reactions > I have to a stone without viewing it through someone > else's eyes. I know full-well the value some people > place on the uncut stone, and it sounds idealistic and > has a purity in its presentation. Admitted. I know the > the fascination I can occasionally feel for a cut stone > that someone was able to view in its uncut form and en- > vision the possibility it could become an aesthetic object > of beauty to them. I have some admiration for that ability > to envision the change of form and care enough to do it, > thus adding their personal nature to the stone. > > I am acquainted somewhat with the history and cultural > conventions that surround stones. I am, also, acquainted > with the alteration and gradual change in conventions as > values change and swing with periods of time. Like the > permanence of the Latin language some conventions have > become of permanent value to some people for what they > represent in the continuity of man and art. Opposing that > is the just-as-important action that causes one artist > at some point to alter one convention to enhance or to > bring into focus a new value present in his culture or > within himself. > > The prevalence of opposing views of the arts is one of > the values of it. It allows a place for everyone's stage > of experience and permits growth in one's appreciation to > happen with a representation of other viewpoints. > > When an experienced and respected viewing stone person > speaks I listen with fairly avid attention and give it > a lot of thought. Everything said fits into the dialectic > somewhere. However, I await my personal experience to > let me experience the feeling (EMOTION!) a stone evokes > in me, and having listened well I place new values con- > tinually in the reactions I have. I have changed, but > not enough to want this group to dissolve into two groups > one for cut, one for uncut stones, as I am still learning > and, as yet, want to hear from BOTH aesthetic responses. > > When two groups are needed this has taken place: > > One of the two viewpoints has become exclusive in its > position and posits a superior attitude excluding the > other as lesser. Anyone with knowledge of language knows > the attacks will now carry the divided art into sides as > war does. The defensive, offensive attacks begin. > > It is possible to consider the whole business in the > form of a linear dialectic - one pole being those who > do not cut, the other pole being those who do. > Behold ! No sides - no war, just simply a position in > an inclusive and permisive dialectic that lets others > move about on the scale until their position is found where > their viewpoint suits their temperment, their intelligence > about the art, their emotional aesthetic experiences and > their familiarity with art language enough to be comfortable > while the next plateau of their development is maturing. > > We have at our disposal the beautiful displays of > numerous suiseki web sites, of text of material from experts > in the art, of books. I am familiar with these - but am I > in any position to say I have matured in this art? - good > grief, I am struggling with my first stones, experiencing > through their good graces and love of beauty my most basic > reactions. > > Having said the above I wish to thank Chris Cochrane, > Anton Nujhuis, Craig Cousins for their very recent posts, > and to thank those others, like Joe Davies, who continually > privately advise me some paths to consider, and, knowing > my preference for open-minded participation are accepting > of my slow-growing and wavering perspective, often even > showing an unnatural patience . . :) > > Lynn > > > > > > ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 07:43:06 PST Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19980223073100.00697ec4@oberon.ark.com> Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 07:31:00 -0800 To: From: Anton Nijhuis Reply-To: Anton Nijhuis Subject: Re: Thoughts on cutting MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 10:17 PM 2/22/98 -0000, Craig Coussins wrote: >We should have the Cutting Suiseki Web Club and the Non Cutting Web >Club.......are cut stones still rearing their ugly head again?? >Collecting Suiseki has clearly two fields of understanding. One that cuts >and one that does not cut. I am now in the group that prefers uncut natural >Suiseki as they are infinitely more difficult to find than slicing the end >of a boulder. Anyone can do that. Its not everyone that can search, locate >and bring back a true uncut natural Stone of rare beauty. Soon we will get >to the point where the previous notes about Antique dealers selling >overpriced colored boulders and calling them Scholars stones. Just because >someone bought a stone as a rare old viewing stone then finds that sometime >a person cut a hole in it or cut a little bit of it in the past does not >suggest that its alright to cut stones. > >Just a thought and please, no offense to Anton. I agree with you totally but sometimes you get a rock that you can not do anything with. So you have two choices; do nothing with it, just leave it as an ordinary rock or cut it and have an extraordinary 'cut rock'. I enjoy cutting limestones, giving them flat bases for penjing arrangements. They are not suiseki or scholar rocks by any means but nice cut rocks that are fun. When I cut them it is like giving new life to the rock, it is a creative process that I enjoy. Then again I have several tons of rock in my yard to work with. I do have some that I would never, ever cut. Anton Nijhuis Vancouver Island ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 08:17:01 PST Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 08:16:50 -0800 (PST) From: Lynn boyd Reply-To: Lynn boyd To: viewing_stones@triumf.ca Subject: RE: Cutting versus no-cutting (fwd) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Have we a member who can advise Mary ? Stand by, Mary, please. Lynn ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 07:07:00 -0800 From: "Milam, Mary" To: boyd@peak.org Subject: RE: Cutting versus no-cutting I am a new fan of this art via the internet, does anyone know of a suiseki club in central washington state? or any one I can contact who can coach me? thanks. mary ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 08:32:29 PST Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca From: "Chris Cochrane" Reply-To: "Chris Cochrane" To: Subject: Re: Cutting versus no-cutting (fwd) Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 11:24:19 -0500 Message-ID: <01bd4077$7e1170c0$a23faccf@sashai.erols.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mary asks, >I am a new fan of this art via the internet, does anyone know of a suiseki >club in central washington state? or any one I can contact who can coach >me? thanks. mary Go to Craig Hunt's website http://www.triumf.ca/people/craig/viewingstones.htm, Mary, to find links to suiseki sites where you can learn a great deal and find the books available. Local bonsai societies often support suiseki display in exhibitions and bonsai magazines speak of suiseki often. One of the greatest suiseki societies anywhere is California Suiseki Society. Dues are $17 a year. Checks made out to California Suiseki Society and sent to 1023 Santa fe Ave., Albany, CA, 94706, USA. It is a mostly northern California group. The coming issue of their newsletter will feature three color pages of stones from their recent exhibition. Good hunting, Chris... C. Cochrane, mailto:sashai@erols.com, Richmond VA USA ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 14:53:56 PST Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca Reply-To: From: "Joe Davies" To: Subject: Re: Thoughts on cutting Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 19:12:34 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: Now that the cutting versus non-cutting debate has awoken from its temporary sleep, perhaps I could add a few comments from my own perspective. Suiseki is a 'newish' subject - one that is growing but to date has relatively few practioners with a depth of experience in the West. It is quite natural for newcomers to seek the views/experiences of those who have been engaged in the subject a while, and thus 'we' perform a role as educators. I think its important in any subject that the educator presents each option and point of view, and this is perhaps especially true of any artistic type endeavour. Thus I feel 'we' should present both cases of the cut v no-cut premise and let those with less experience make up their own minds about the direction they wish to pursue with their own collections. The Japanese and the Chinese have altered their stones since the origin of the subject, yet when I look through the Japanese Suiseki Association annual exhibition catalog it is difficult to find a cut stone on exhibit. I suspect, therefore, that their cutting is less prevalent in terms of 'quality' stones and restricted more to 'export quality' stones and the preservation of older stones which have acheived fame. My contacts with collectors indicate that there is a movement away from cut stones. I feel this is a natural evolution, but those that have moved away from cutting stones almost all did cut stones at the outset of their suiseki experience. Certainly I have cut stones up to a couple of years ago. I stopped for many reasons, but one overwhelming one - and that is I really enjoy the tactile nature of the stones and like to handle them, yet when a cut stone is removed from its stand the flatness of the base visually jars and it becomes less an attraction to handle it (not to mention the knife like edge left as a result of the cutting process!). Joe ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 14:59:52 PST Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca Message-ID: <199802232256.OAA04566@web.selah.wednet.edu> Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 14:54:00 -0800 From: "Milam, Mary" Reply-To: "Milam, Mary" Subject: new queries To: viewing_stones@triumf.ca Is there a size limit on stones, i.e. can they be quite small? Is volcanic basalt permitted? Where can I find a list of upcoming exhibitions? many thanks ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 11:19:01 PST Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca Message-ID: <00c401bd4159$4d4eda30$25645a8e@ipg06.triumf.ca> From: "Craig J. Hunt" Reply-To: "Craig J. Hunt" To: Subject: Viewing Stones home page moved Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 11:20:41 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Gang; I just wanted to let you know that I moved my Viewing Stones home page to; http://www.geocities.com/Tokyo/Garden/1666/viewingstones.htm Could you please change the link to it if you have it in your bookmarks or on a web page? Thanks! Craig J. Hunt in Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada home; craig_hunt@geocites.com work; craig@triumf.ca http://www.triumf.ca/people/craig/craig.htm ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 11:41:50 PST Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca From: "Chris Cochrane" Reply-To: "Chris Cochrane" To: Subject: The Historic Japanese Stone Aesthetic Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 14:33:22 -0500 Message-ID: <01bd415b$11c20800$ef3daccf@sashai.erols.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In the Jan-Fb '98 edition of BCI's Bonsai Magazine, Norry Kirschten writes from Luxembourg on the history of naturally-formed stones as objects of purely aesthetic contemplation. He notes, "the Chinese see their stones in a cosmological, mystical context whereas the Japanese consider theirs from as purely historic and aesthetic point of view." Then, "Over many centuries the Japanese concept of _Suiseki_ has become the most complex and sophisicated form of stone appreciation." I wish Norry were on-line to discuss those statements. All traditional Chinese art has mystical connotations as well as pedogogic intent-- the art is intended to teach moral lessons and evoke emotional (including its subset seasonal) responses. I don't see Chinese art as any less aesthetic than Japanese, but I am sure it could be argued that art which also teaches moral virtue is not pure. Anybody feel one is more aesthetic? The question of which viewing stone appreciation is more sophisticated is at least as puzzling. How would Zen compare to Vedanta Indian philosophy in sophistication? Which would consider the label "complex or sophisticated" a compliment? Norry goes on to note that the art of tea and its aesthetics as established by Sen no Rikyu furthered the prominence of stones. Norry comments, "Many masters used them as 'media of artistic expression in the thematic organization of tea ceremonies.' The mostly small, dark stones priveleged for tea ceremony are called _Chaseki_, or tea stones." Certainly the aesthetic associated with Rikyu's wabi-tea ceremony is terrific for consideration of viewing stones, and is reflected in the modern Kei Do display aesthetic where we often see moderately large stones. Was the aesthetic different in 16th century Momoyama Japan. Almost certainly so. Is Norry telling us that small, dark stones (dark stones are certainly still favored) were consistently chosen for tea-viewing. If someone knows, I'd really like to learn more about the changing aesthetic. Joe Davies recent comment on cutting and the present state of historically significant stones is just the sort of information that helps me see a stone in context to its culture and ours. If someone had asked me what "Chaseki" was, I would have guessed these were the small stones left in the bottom of an iron pot to create sound as water for tea was boiled. Those singing stones are also an artistic expression, though probably not cha-seki... :-) ...-ishi & ...-seki: Could someone elaborate the difference? Stones identified by their river source seem to be ...-ishi. Stones identified there relation to a viewer seem to be identified ...-seki. Is there a difference in the origin of each word that would make using it more precise or elevating? Just wondering... Chris... C. Cochrane, mailto:sashai@erols.com, Richmond VA USA I'd like to understand more of what Norry refers to as the Japanese "purely historic & aesthetic" point of view. He describes Japan historically as isolating its people from outside influences, but selectively importing objects of culture (especially I would agree Chris... C. Cochrane, mailto:sashai@erols.com, Richmond VA USA -----Original Message----- From: Anton Nijhuis To: viewing_stones@triumf.ca Date: Sunday, February 22, 1998 11:22 AM Subject: Re: Thoughts on cutting >I think you are missing the fun out of cutting a stone and an entire >creative process by not doing it yourself. > >A simple and easy way to do this is to buy yourself a good diamond blade, >they come in different sizes and types. 'Target' is the best known company >that sells commercial diamond saws and blades. You can get a blade for >under $100 and will last many cuts, the diamonds slowly wear on each cut. > >The saw can be rented for as little as $25 to $35 per day from an >industrial rental shop. There are many types and sizes of saws, tile saw, >masonry saw etc. They all work but it is best to buy the blade that will do >the job best for you. The rental shops really charge for any damage to the >blade. > >You can cut a lot of rock in a half a day. >Anton Nijhuis >Vancouver Island > ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 12:12:24 PST Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca From: "Chris Cochrane" Reply-To: "Chris Cochrane" To: Subject: Re: The Historic Japanese Stone Aesthetic Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 15:04:03 -0500 Message-ID: <01bd415f$5b452a80$13f4accf@sashai.erols.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Oops. I apologize for not cutting-out Anton's article, which I had used to get the mail list address for a post regarding the historic Japanese stone aesthetic... :-( Chris... C. Cochrane, mailto:sashai@erols.com, Richmond VA USA ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 12:14:51 PST Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca From: Mysteries@aol.com Reply-To: Mysteries@aol.com Message-ID: Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 15:14:29 EST To: sashai@erols.com, owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca, viewing_stones@triumf.ca MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: The Historic Japanese Stone Aesthetic Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit o i dunno. Some of those articles are best left uncut aesthetically speaking, don't you think? Randall ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 13:10:08 PST Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca From: "Craig Coussins" Reply-To: "Craig Coussins" To: , , , Subject: Re: The Historic Japanese Stone Aesthetic Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 21:08:19 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: I agree Randall....way above my stoopid head! Yours sincerely, Craig Coussins. Site is at: http://www.btinternet.com/~craig.coussins/ or ask any search browser for Craig Coussins or ask and Browser for 'Craig Coussins' ---------- > From: Mysteries@aol.com > To: sashai@erols.com; owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca; viewing_stones@triumf.ca > Subject: Re: The Historic Japanese Stone Aesthetic > Date: 24 February 1998 20:14 > > o i dunno. Some of those articles are best left uncut aesthetically speaking, > don't you think? > > Randall ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 03:02:07 PST Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca Reply-To: "marco favero" From: "marco favero" To: "Milam, Mary" , Subject: R: new queries Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 22:40:29 +0100 Message-ID: <01bd4236$00cf6160$LocalHost@local.inrete.it> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Mary, welcome to suiseki viewing stones, the answer to seize is :there isn't limit to seize,if you are luckly to f= ind a great a big a huge stone,luckly fellow!!! no problem for vulcanic basalt,only probelm is Form,aesthetics and pleasu= re. if you want see some sample,look at this web site: http://www.vvm.com/~ggarcia/great.htm and after ask for help,thanks. regards marco *************************************************************************= *** *************** -----Messaggio originale----- Da: Milam, Mary A: viewing_stones@triumf.ca Data: marted=EC 24 febbraio 1998 0.03 Oggetto: new queries >Is there a size limit on stones, i.e. can they be quite small? > >Is volcanic basalt permitted? > >Where can I find a list of upcoming exhibitions? > >many thanks > ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 12:21:20 PST Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca Message-ID: <00bd01bd42f4$56d476e0$25645a8e@ipg06.triumf.ca> From: "Craig J. Hunt" Reply-To: "Craig J. Hunt" To: "Milam, Mary" , "Chris Cochrane" CC: Subject: Viewing Stone Exhibitions Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 12:23:02 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thanks to prompting by Chris Cochrane, I've added a "Viewing Stones Exhibition" to the Viewing Stone page at; http://www.geocities.com/Tokyo/Garden/1666/viewingstones.htm I have 3 events listed so far (one in each; USA, Switzerland & Italy) If you know of any others, please let me know and I'll add them to the page. Craig J. Hunt in Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada home; craig_hunt@geocites.com work; craig@triumf.ca http://www.triumf.ca/people/craig/craig.htm ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 20:35:48 PST Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca From: "Chris Cochrane" Reply-To: "Chris Cochrane" To: Subject: Dai-cutting tool Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 23:26:49 -0500 Message-ID: <01bd4337$ebb96520$264faccf@sashai.erols.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I've been looking at options for cutting dai and wonder if others are as perplexed as I about the one (or maybe two) best tools for the hobbiest. It happens that 10/4 (that's lumberman's talk for a 2 1/2" thick) walnut boards are available here for $5.20/board foot. For classic horizontal suiseki of limited height, that's way too thick to use... but for the wacky vertical object stones I find, l can use every quarter-inch. Most scroll saws (Delta, Ryobi, all but one Craftsman, DeWalt et al) use a 7/8" inch stroke with a maximum shaft speed of from 1600-2000 RPM. Dremel's (and one Craftsman's) stroke depth is 3/4". None of these saws cannot saw a board thicker than 8/4 because the teeth would not reach the full depth of the board. After looking at many models, I think the variable speed Delta at $169 is the great bargain among scroll saws. It has a decently powerful motor, max speed of almost 1800 RPM, well-designed quick release blade holders. Among the $450 (with stand) scroll saws, DeWalt is quiet and exacting... the Delta Q3 is not as quiet or as precise a cutter because it allows the blade more play in the upstroke than the DeWitt, but the Q3 can cut better through thick wood because of the blade play and it cuts faster than the Dewitt. I don't know enough about the more expensive scroll saws (RBI, Excalibur et al) to speak comfortably, but Hegner produces saws at above $1100 that have longer stroke lengths and cut wood thicker than 2". At above $1400, these saws smoke cigars and tell crude jokes. As an alternative to the scroll saw, bandsaws are available that cut woods at depths far exceeding 2" thickness. If you get a bandsaw large enough to hold a blade at least 75" long (a saw with this blade length has a 10" capacity or better) , Highland Hardware in Atlanta sells 1/16" wide blades that are narrower in dimension than scroll saw blades which cut thick wood. These blades can follow very tight cutting patterns. Unless you don't go above 10" in size, most bandsaws will be built principally out of plastic and/or pot metal that do not dissipate vibration as well as cast iron. Comparing 14" Delta, Jet and Craftsman bandsaws, I think Jet has the best combination of price and performance. It sells at $509 locally. I'm still looking for something a little smaller or perhaps a second-hand model... :-)... What are others using? Your advice is appreciated. Chris... C. Cochrane, mailto:sashai@erols.com, Richmond VA USA ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 02:07:17 PST Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca Reply-To: From: "Joe Davies" To: "Chris Cochrane" , Subject: Re: Dai-cutting tool Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 05:09:35 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: Chris has some good info in his post that I am sure will be useful to many. Perhaps I could add some personal thoughts on the topic... I believe the tools one uses are a facet of the method one adopts for carving stands. Almost everyone develops a slightly different technique, and this is partly due to the expedience of utilising tools one already owns as opposed to buying new ones. With imagination, a little patience, and practise one can create stands with almost any 'standard' cutting tools - it doesnt require vast expense, in fact it can be daunting for a newcomer to the subject when confronted by an idealised list of expensive tools, many simply cannot afford them, and those that can have a natural reluctance to invest in new tools until they have developed the confidence that they will get used. There is also a big difference in the tool requirement dependent upon the type of wood one plans to use, for example the softer woods, up to say Walnut can be cut fairly cleanly with most hand and power tools, but the harder woods, such as Ebony, Rosewood and Purpleheart require better cutting implements that would be found in most home garages and workshops. This also applies to scroll saws, they are an ideal implement for cutting out shapes but when I tested some I found they just couldnt cope with the aforementioned hardwoods, and burnt rather than cut (though I am sure at the right price something could be purchased that would work ok). I dont believe there is a 'method' for carving stands that is the ideal, as it is very much dependent upon the wood, the style of stand, the tools available (remember we dont all live in the USA!!), ones budget and perhaps most importantly ones skills and desires. For myself..... I have carved in excess of 100 stands, and have been complimented on occassion as to their merit, thus I am living testimony that anyone can do it, as you wont find anyone more cack-handed than I, I seen to have the gene missing that all us men are supposed to have that enables us to exhibit common sense when working with our hands! (my wife has to change the light-bulbs in our home as I am incapable of it - and you think I'm joking!). I never did wood-work or crafts at school, so my experiences of carving suiseki stands has been very much a case trial and error and learning the hard way. Over the years I have come to some conclusions about stand carving that I will share with you, take them if you will, if your own experiences bear out the opposite then it goes to prove what I am have been intimating! - It's better to get stuck in and 'have a go' than await the funding and purchase of every last cool carving gadget on the market. Through experimentation you will come to the conclusion as to what tools suit you, and what you _really_ need and thus invest in them with confidence. - Seek inspiration for designs from the suiseki books, and periodicals (and the net). Copy designs, but be guided by your own judgment and how the stone 'speaks' to you. - A hard to work good quality wood is better then an easy to work soft and nasty wood. The stand and stone are hopefully to be married for aeons, its best to use the best materials even if it requires much more work, after all, a good stone deserves a good stand. - Always think 'safety first'. A hackneyed concept but one that really does require focus. Power tools are dangerous. Protect your eyes, always, always do this. I use gloves when carving and have been chastised over this, but I have found the contrary - I have saved my hands many a time. - A natural, smooth, satin sheen as finished appearance to the wood is best, preferred to a high gloss shine. Don't use varnish. Spare no effort in sanding down, the more work you put in at the final stage, the better the result. I consider good quality sand-paper (glass-paper in the US?) as the single most important tool, the useless paper-backed stuff they sell in sheets at hardware stores is a waste of money. Look for the specialist sandpapers on canvas or cloth backing, they are felixible and will last several times longer. - If you are unhappy with the completed stand then do it again! If you dont it will always nag away at you, and the second one will, I guarantee, be better than the first. - Carving a good stand isnt easy, it does require practise, so dont be put off if your first efforts arent as good as you would hope. You are not just wood-working, you are designer and artist as well. - Stand carving isnt just for males! - In general, 'minimalist' style stands look best for the Japanese style suiseki, and more graniose stands look better on vertical, Chinese style Scholar's rocks. Hope some of that helps. Joe ---------- > From: Chris Cochrane > To: viewing_stones@triumf.ca > Subject: Dai-cutting tool > Date: 27 February 1998 04:26 > > I've been looking at options for cutting dai and wonder if others are as > perplexed as I about the one (or maybe two) best tools for the hobbiest. It > happens that 10/4 (that's > lumberman's talk for a 2 1/2" thick) walnut boards are available here for > $5.20/board foot. For classic horizontal suiseki of limited height, that's > way too thick to use... but for the wacky vertical object stones I find, l > can use every quarter-inch. > > Most scroll saws (Delta, Ryobi, all but one Craftsman, DeWalt et al) use a > 7/8" inch stroke with a maximum shaft speed of from 1600-2000 RPM. Dremel's > (and one Craftsman's) stroke depth is 3/4". None of these saws cannot saw > a board thicker than 8/4 because the teeth would not reach the full depth of > the board. > > After looking at many models, I think the variable speed Delta at $169 is > the great bargain among scroll saws. It has a decently powerful motor, max > speed of almost 1800 RPM, well-designed quick release blade holders. Among > the $450 (with stand) scroll saws, DeWalt is quiet and exacting... the Delta > Q3 is not as quiet or as precise a cutter because it allows the blade more > play in the upstroke than the DeWitt, but the Q3 can cut better through > thick wood because of the blade play and it cuts faster than the Dewitt. > > I don't know enough about the more expensive scroll saws (RBI, Excalibur et > al) to speak comfortably, but Hegner produces saws at above $1100 that have > longer stroke lengths and cut wood thicker than 2". At above $1400, these > saws smoke cigars and tell crude jokes. > > As an alternative to the scroll saw, bandsaws are available that cut woods > at depths far exceeding 2" thickness. If you get a bandsaw large enough to > hold a blade at least 75" long (a saw with this blade length has a 10" > capacity or better) , Highland Hardware in Atlanta sells 1/16" wide blades > that are narrower in dimension than scroll saw blades which cut thick wood. > These blades can follow very tight cutting patterns. Unless you don't go > above 10" in size, most bandsaws will be built principally out of plastic > and/or pot metal that do not dissipate vibration as well as cast iron. > Comparing 14" Delta, Jet and Craftsman bandsaws, I think Jet has the best > combination of price and performance. It sells at $509 locally. I'm still > looking for something a little smaller or perhaps a second-hand model... > :-)... > > What are others using? Your advice is appreciated. > > Chris... C. Cochrane, mailto:sashai@erols.com, Richmond VA USA > ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 02:07:22 PST Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca Reply-To: From: "Joe Davies" To: Subject: Suiban Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 05:21:32 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: Dear all, I am constructing stoneware suiban for the display of suiseki. At the moment this is very much experimental, and I am laboring to develop styles of suiban and suitable glazes. My motivation for this is two-fold, firstly its fun! and second I can never seem to find the things for sale anywhere. The darn things are the very devil to construct, and I now have an inkling as to why most of the many excellent potters in the West who work in the Bonsai field, dont make suiban. At some future stage I will be looking to design suiban on a commission basis, and I most certainly have no intention about giving a load of marketing sales hype through this newslist, and abusing its purpose. But I would really like to hear the thoughts of members of this group on suiban, and especially the sizes so that I can direct my efforts into working on the size suiban that will eventually be of use to collectors. So if you have some ideas or thoughts please do share them with me, I can be emailed directly at ... Joe.Davies@BTInternet.com Thanks Joe ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 04:51:54 PST Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca Message-ID: <34F6D2F6.9F7FBBE2@ionet.net> Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 06:51:34 -0800 From: Peter Aradi Reply-To: paradi@ionet.net MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Chris Cochrane CC: viewing_stones@triumf.ca Subject: Re: Dai-cutting tool References: <01bd4337$ebb96520$264faccf@sashai.erols.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Chris, et all: Two years ago Santa Claus was good to me and I received a variable speed Delta 16" scrollsaw for Christmas. I have a bad case of arthritis and it has greatly reduced my dexterity. (According to my wife, there was not much to begin with! So Joe Davis is not the only manually challenged male in our group.) I found my scrollsaw haven sent. :-) It enables me to cut wood which would be very difficult with handtools. I also found that different woods require different blades, saw speeds and feeding rates. My experience is limited to a maximum of 6/4 wood. I also have a router and a router table, and a small selection of bits. It enables me to cut both the outside decorative edge and the inside of the dai where the stone is placed. When first started making dai, I have tried several kind of exotic woods. Like you Chris, I have also settled on walnut as it is easily workable, not expensive, and can be finished several ways. So far I prefer the U.S. brand Watco Natural, a Danish oil finish. Peter Aradi Tulsa, Oklahoma A lover of the "world in miniature." (Penjing, scholar's stones, bonsai, suiseki, etc.) ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 09:32:22 PST Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19980227093010.0079e710@mailhost.efn.org> Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 09:30:10 -0800 To: "Chris Cochrane" , From: Herb Gustafson Reply-To: Herb Gustafson Subject: Re: Dai-cutting tool MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Chris, I have the $169 Delta scroll saw you mention. I have been able to cut two inches of walnut on it, slooooooooowly. I prefer the look of a dai a bit thinner anyway, so I either cut it down myself with a tablesaw ( for small pieces ) or have larger chunks sanded down. I have a wonderful neighbor who can sand down stuff 6 in. thick and four feet wide ! Nice for slabs ! I use the tiny omnidirectional blades so I do not have to turn the work, even though I sometimes have to in order to avoid hitting the fixed arm with a corner of the board. BTW, I have discovered that if I do all my routing, chiseling and hand fitting before scrolling, there is much less instability. But perhaps that is obvious. I tried it the other way at first. At 11:26 PM 2/26/98 -0500, Chris Cochrane wrote: >I've been looking at options for cutting dai and wonder if others are as >perplexed as I about the one (or maybe two) best tools for the hobbiest. It >happens that 10/4 (that's >lumberman's talk for a 2 1/2" thick) walnut boards are available here for >$5.20/board foot. For classic horizontal suiseki of limited height, that's >way too thick to use... but for the wacky vertical object stones I find, l >can use every quarter-inch. > >Most scroll saws (Delta, Ryobi, all but one Craftsman, DeWalt et al) use a >7/8" inch stroke with a maximum shaft speed of from 1600-2000 RPM. Dremel's >(and one Craftsman's) stroke depth is 3/4". None of these saws cannot saw >a board thicker than 8/4 because the teeth would not reach the full depth of >the board. > >After looking at many models, I think the variable speed Delta at $169 is >the great bargain among scroll saws. It has a decently powerful motor, max >speed of almost 1800 RPM, well-designed quick release blade holders. Among >the $450 (with stand) scroll saws, DeWalt is quiet and exacting... the Delta >Q3 is not as quiet or as precise a cutter because it allows the blade more >play in the upstroke than the DeWitt, but the Q3 can cut better through >thick wood because of the blade play and it cuts faster than the Dewitt. > >I don't know enough about the more expensive scroll saws (RBI, Excalibur et >al) to speak comfortably, but Hegner produces saws at above $1100 that have >longer stroke lengths and cut wood thicker than 2". At above $1400, these >saws smoke cigars and tell crude jokes. > >As an alternative to the scroll saw, bandsaws are available that cut woods >at depths far exceeding 2" thickness. If you get a bandsaw large enough to >hold a blade at least 75" long (a saw with this blade length has a 10" >capacity or better) , Highland Hardware in Atlanta sells 1/16" wide blades >that are narrower in dimension than scroll saw blades which cut thick wood. >These blades can follow very tight cutting patterns. Unless you don't go >above 10" in size, most bandsaws will be built principally out of plastic >and/or pot metal that do not dissipate vibration as well as cast iron. >Comparing 14" Delta, Jet and Craftsman bandsaws, I think Jet has the best >combination of price and performance. It sells at $509 locally. I'm still >looking for something a little smaller or perhaps a second-hand model... >:-)... > >What are others using? Your advice is appreciated. > >Chris... C. Cochrane, mailto:sashai@erols.com, Richmond VA USA > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------ Herb Gustafson POB 40993, Eugene, OR 97404 hlg@efn.org Bonsai Author ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------ ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 10:46:33 PST Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 12:44:22 -0600 From: Sandi Humphrey-E10220 Reply-To: Sandi Humphrey-E10220 Subject: Collecting spots in CA To: viewing_stones@triumf.ca Message-ID: <"Macintosh */PRMD=MOT/ADMD=MOT/C=US/"@MHS> Living in Florida, we do not have an abundance of good collecting spots for viewing stones. I'm itching for a collecting trip. As it happens, I have a press tour business trip scheduled for March which will take me to Phoenix. I was debating a side trip on the weekend and wondering about southern California, specifically the Mojave Desert area. I LOVE some of the stones featured in the Tucker/Rivera books that were collected in that area. If I were to set out from Las Vegas or Burbank/Sunland, CA area (where I have a friend) - where are there good collecting spots? It looks like the Mojave Desert extends from Palmdale/Barstow areas through an East Mojave Desert area near the Nevada border, so it is quite a big stretch. Can anyone provide better guidelines on where to start looking? Are these spots accessible/safe for a lone female in a rented 2-whl drive car (I'm adventurous)? Death Valley area might also be a possibility, although some areas will be protected. Collecting in the Phoenix perimeter would also be a question, but judging from some of the countryside around Las Vegas - Red Rock/Valley of Fire, etc. I've found it to be more sedimentary/soft than volcanic or other harder rock. My guess is AZ is similar. Any suggestions would be welcome. Regards, Sandi Humphrey ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 16:54:45 PST Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca From: "Garry Garcia" Reply-To: "Garry Garcia" To: , "Chris Cochrane" , Subject: Re: Dai-cutting tool Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 18:54:34 -0600 Message-ID: <01bd43e3$6fdf8a40$e15f47cc@ggarcia.vvm.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have a dremel, with a few cutting and shaping blades, a 10" chop saw and a jig saw. Wish I could invest in the expensive good stuff, it would make life a little easier. But as Joe Davies mentioned, with a little imagination, a LOT of patients, and a LOT of practice, even the minimal tools can be put to good use, and create a good stand. I use a variety of woods, the softer woods carve easier and have a nice finish, however when I have a stone that I feel deserves only the best, I try to find a hard wood with a tight grain. Recently I found one piece of wood that I am going to try, it is called Coco-Bolo, very, very hard, heavy, reddish wood..problem is I have to find a good stone for the wood. Not sure if my poor dremel will make it, but will give it a try.-- Has anyone had any experience with this type of wood? I think it's about as dense as Purpleheart wood. One other question for the group. I was talking to some folks about carving, etc. one fellow says that TEAK dust is toxic, and that one should wear a mask when doing any work on this wood that would create sawdust. I checked many references, but found nothing about toxicisity levels in wood dust. Garry Garcia Original Message----- From: Joe Davies To: Chris Cochrane ; viewing_stones@triumf.ca Date: Friday, February 27, 1998 4:10 AM Subject: Re: Dai-cutting tool >Chris has some good info in his post that I am sure will be useful to many. >Perhaps I could add some personal thoughts on the topic... > >I believe the tools one uses are a facet of the method one adopts for >carving stands. Almost everyone develops a slightly different technique, >and this is partly due to the expedience of utilising tools one already >owns as opposed to buying new ones. With imagination, a little patience, >and practise one can create stands with almost any 'standard' cutting >tools - it doesnt require vast expense, in fact it can be daunting for a >newcomer to the subject when confronted by an idealised list of expensive >tools, many simply cannot afford them, and those that can have a natural >reluctance to invest in new tools until they have developed the confidence >that they will get used. > >There is also a big difference in the tool requirement dependent upon the >type of wood one plans to use, for example the softer woods, up to say >Walnut can be cut fairly cleanly with most hand and power tools, but the >harder woods, such as Ebony, Rosewood and Purpleheart require better >cutting implements that would be found in most home garages and workshops. >This also applies to scroll saws, they are an ideal implement for cutting >out shapes but when I tested some I found they just couldnt cope with the >aforementioned hardwoods, and burnt rather than cut (though I am sure at >the right price something could be purchased that would work ok). > >I dont believe there is a 'method' for carving stands that is the ideal, as >it is very much dependent upon the wood, the style of stand, the tools >available (remember we dont all live in the USA!!), ones budget and perhaps >most importantly ones skills and desires. > >For myself..... I have carved in excess of 100 stands, and have been >complimented on occassion as to their merit, thus I am living testimony >that anyone can do it, as you wont find anyone more cack-handed than I, I >seen to have the gene missing that all us men are supposed to have that >enables us to exhibit common sense when working with our hands! (my wife >has to change the light-bulbs in our home as I am incapable of it - and you >think I'm joking!). I never did wood-work or crafts at school, so my >experiences of carving suiseki stands has been very much a case trial and >error and learning the hard way. Over the years I have come to some >conclusions about stand carving that I will share with you, take them if >you will, if your own experiences bear out the opposite then it goes to >prove what I am have been intimating! > >- It's better to get stuck in and 'have a go' than await the funding and >purchase of every last cool carving gadget on the market. Through >experimentation you will come to the conclusion as to what tools suit you, >and what you _really_ need and thus invest in them with confidence. > >- Seek inspiration for designs from the suiseki books, and periodicals (and >the net). Copy designs, but be guided by your own judgment and how the >stone 'speaks' to you. > >- A hard to work good quality wood is better then an easy to work soft and >nasty wood. The stand and stone are hopefully to be married for aeons, its >best to use the best materials even if it requires much more work, after >all, a good stone deserves a good stand. > >- Always think 'safety first'. A hackneyed concept but one that really does >require focus. Power tools are dangerous. Protect your eyes, always, always >do this. I use gloves when carving and have been chastised over this, but I >have found the contrary - I have saved my hands many a time. > >- A natural, smooth, satin sheen as finished appearance to the wood is >best, preferred to a high gloss shine. Don't use varnish. Spare no effort >in sanding down, the more work you put in at the final stage, the better >the result. I consider good quality sand-paper (glass-paper in the US?) as >the single most important tool, the useless paper-backed stuff they sell in >sheets at hardware stores is a waste of money. Look for the specialist >sandpapers on canvas or cloth backing, they are felixible and will last >several times longer. > >- If you are unhappy with the completed stand then do it again! If you dont >it will always nag away at you, and the second one will, I guarantee, be >better than the first. > >- Carving a good stand isnt easy, it does require practise, so dont be put >off if your first efforts arent as good as you would hope. You are not just >wood-working, you are designer and artist as well. > >- Stand carving isnt just for males! > >- In general, 'minimalist' style stands look best for the Japanese style >suiseki, and more graniose stands look better on vertical, Chinese style >Scholar's rocks. > >Hope some of that helps. > >Joe > > > > > >---------- >> From: Chris Cochrane >> To: viewing_stones@triumf.ca >> Subject: Dai-cutting tool >> Date: 27 February 1998 04:26 >> >> I've been looking at options for cutting dai and wonder if others are as >> perplexed as I about the one (or maybe two) best tools for the hobbiest. >It >> happens that 10/4 (that's >> lumberman's talk for a 2 1/2" thick) walnut boards are available here for >> $5.20/board foot. For classic horizontal suiseki of limited height, >that's >> way too thick to use... but for the wacky vertical object stones I find, >l >> can use every quarter-inch. >> >> Most scroll saws (Delta, Ryobi, all but one Craftsman, DeWalt et al) use >a >> 7/8" inch stroke with a maximum shaft speed of from 1600-2000 RPM. >Dremel's >> (and one Craftsman's) stroke depth is 3/4". None of these saws cannot >saw >> a board thicker than 8/4 because the teeth would not reach the full depth >of >> the board. >> >> After looking at many models, I think the variable speed Delta at $169 is >> the great bargain among scroll saws. It has a decently powerful motor, >max >> speed of almost 1800 RPM, well-designed quick release blade holders. >Among >> the $450 (with stand) scroll saws, DeWalt is quiet and exacting... the >Delta >> Q3 is not as quiet or as precise a cutter because it allows the blade >more >> play in the upstroke than the DeWitt, but the Q3 can cut better through >> thick wood because of the blade play and it cuts faster than the Dewitt. >> >> I don't know enough about the more expensive scroll saws (RBI, Excalibur >et >> al) to speak comfortably, but Hegner produces saws at above $1100 that >have >> longer stroke lengths and cut wood thicker than 2". At above $1400, >these >> saws smoke cigars and tell crude jokes. >> >> As an alternative to the scroll saw, bandsaws are available that cut >woods >> at depths far exceeding 2" thickness. If you get a bandsaw large enough >to >> hold a blade at least 75" long (a saw with this blade length has a 10" >> capacity or better) , Highland Hardware in Atlanta sells 1/16" wide >blades >> that are narrower in dimension than scroll saw blades which cut thick >wood. >> These blades can follow very tight cutting patterns. Unless you don't go >> above 10" in size, most bandsaws will be built principally out of plastic >> and/or pot metal that do not dissipate vibration as well as cast iron. >> Comparing 14" Delta, Jet and Craftsman bandsaws, I think Jet has the best >> combination of price and performance. It sells at $509 locally. I'm still >> looking for something a little smaller or perhaps a second-hand model... >> :-)... >> >> What are others using? Your advice is appreciated. >> >> Chris... C. Cochrane, mailto:sashai@erols.com, Richmond VA USA >> > ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 18:26:29 PST Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca From: "Chris Cochrane" Reply-To: "Chris Cochrane" To: Subject: Re: Dai-cutting tool Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 21:14:56 -0500 Message-ID: <01bd43ee$a9cffea0$16f4accf@sashai.erols.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Garry writes >Has anyone had any experience with Coco Bolo? > I think it's about as dense as Purpleheart wood. Coco Bolo (looks like a oily, rich rosewood with undulating black stripes), Purplewood and Padauk always catch my eye with their density and distinct colors and grain patterns. I've heard woodturners have fits in getting a flat finish without chipping on purplewood end grain. Each of these varieties, however, has dense, stable grain patterns that should finish well. Because Coco Bolo has those distinctive stripes, I'd guess there might be a distinguishable difference in hardness between seasonal growth rings. Don't choose a board that is quarter sawn (spring and winter wood grain on quarter sawn lumber alternates vertically on the cut end of the board). It is best to choose a board that displays concentric circles on its cut end. Then as you bandsaw it, you are cutting hard and soft parts of the board throughout the cut rather than alternatively cutting hard, then soft, then hard again. Anyone who has cut or recut old Douglas fir lumber knows how harrowing hitting an alternate grain can be... ;-((( The interiors of most English antique chests are quarter sawn white oak-- beautiful but difficult to cut smoothly. >... one fellow says that TEAK dust is toxic... I haven't heard about teak specifically, but there are warnings about sawing chemically treated lumber. Ohio State University has some interesting articles on industrial hygiene concerns over wood dust at http://www.dreamscape.com/oasinc/health.htm-- including hotlinks to articles articles on OSHA wood dust exposure standards for industry and on woods toxic to man. Teak appears less toxic than Coco Bolo... but both pale in comparison to Oleander's toxicity... :-((( Chris... C. Cochrane, mailto:sashai@erols.com, Richmond VA USA ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 21:15:26 PST Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca Message-ID: <34F79D89.76402E4B@telepath.com> Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 23:15:53 -0600 From: David/Danielle Waldo Reply-To: David/Danielle Waldo MIME-Version: 1.0 To: viewing_stones@triumf.ca Subject: Re: Dai-cutting tool References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I haven't been making dai for too long but I will give my 2 cents on wood working tools. I have 3 tools that I have found indispensable: - 16 inch variable speed scroll saw (not sure of the depth right now) - 1 3/4 hp. Ryobi plunge router - hand held "Dremel" tool with flexable shaft With these tools and using Joe Davies dai cutting method I can cut out a simple dai in about 2 hours. If allot of shaping of the dai is needed after cutting this will take much longer. I have found that the scroll saw will cut through even very hard wood like maple as long as I have the right blade. The plunge router makes cutting out the inside of the dai a snap, and making the lip on the dai. The "Dremel" carving tool allows easy shaping of the dai after the rough cutting. David Waldo ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 21:24:45 PST Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca Message-ID: <34F79FBD.FFF8016A@telepath.com> Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 23:25:17 -0600 From: David/Danielle Waldo Reply-To: David/Danielle Waldo MIME-Version: 1.0 To: viewing_stones@triumf.ca Subject: Re: Dai-cutting tool References: <01bd43ee$a9cffea0$16f4accf@sashai.erols.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Chris Cochrane wrote: > Garry writes > >Has anyone had any experience with Coco Bolo? > > I think it's about as dense as Purpleheart wood. > > Coco Bolo (looks like a oily, rich rosewood with undulating black stripes), > Purplewood and Padauk always catch my eye with their density and distinct > colors and grain patterns. I've heard woodturners have fits in getting a > flat finish without chipping on purplewood end grain. Each of these > varieties, however, has dense, stable grain patterns that should finish > well. I have heard that Padauk has dense grain. However, I bought some at a storehere in Oklahoma City and it has HUGE grain. It seemed to be dense grained with holes or large grain running through it. Are there different types of Padauk? > >... one fellow says that TEAK dust is toxic... > Yes, I have heard that TEAK dust has the same effect as Padauk dust, it cancause an allergic reaction to inhaling the dust. David Waldo ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 23:00:34 PST Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca Message-ID: <199802280656.BAA29702@ns.trigger.net> From: "shibui" Reply-To: "shibui" To: Subject: several subjects Date: Sat, 28 Feb 1998 01:21:16 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Some comments on several recent postings... As per Joe's advice and products for cleaning stones, here's another, tooth paste. No single cleaning method works for all stones. If you're at a new collecting site and you are unsure as to which method of cleaning will produce the best results, bring home a few rocks to experiment with, using a variety of cleaning methods and products. A warm stone will accept wax or shoe polish sooner than a cold one. A light coloured stone can be darkened somewhat by spraying it with PAM (vegetable oil) and placing it in a microwave oven, set on high, for 1minute. Be careful they stay hot for a while! And for that aged look, try dish washing liquid and a buffing cloth. Some stones benefit from being hand rubbed. The hard dark green stones (of the Eel in Calif.?) for example will almost immediately show the effects of hand rubbing although it takes many repetitions for the dull shine of age to show. Serpentine shines sooner than jasper. One of the oiliest parts of the body is on both sides of the nose, where the left nostril meets the left cheek and the right nostril meets the right cheek. A netsuke collector told me he often rubs his ivory statues after gently wiping one side of his nose with his index finger. He would then lovingly yet firmly rub a netsuke for a minute or two. Then he'd wipe the other side of his nose and rub the carving again. You're supposed to handle ivory, he'd say. I kept a small flat stone in my car for several weeks once, and rubbed it while I was driving around. It didn't take very long to develope a beautiful patina. Rubbing doesn't seem to enhance all types of stones, especially if they are on the soft side. Softer stones don't patinate even if left outside and lovingly cared for there. In the old days ( before microwaves were discovered) wax was used to shine a stone. Try jewelers rouge on a buffing wheel. (Shine your jewelry too.) On to the cutting question. For those who are new to this divisive issue, separating a potential viewing stone from the unwanted or boring part of a larger stone or boulder usually involves a saw cut, which is why the bottom of a viewing stone is flat. It's not so much the fact that a viewing stone has a flat 'man made' bottom as is the fact that a large stone may have an appealing, evocative or suggestive section to it which needs to be separated from the rest of the stone in order to highlight or enjoy that section. I much prefer walking down into my basement to enjoy my Viewing Stones than driving to a far away farmers field or a river bed every time the urge to be trans-suiseki-ported takes over. A short while back, Craig Coussins said something I agree with. A stone becomes art only when it is tastefully displayed on a plinth, dai, daiza, suiban, doban, base whatever you feel is best. A fat bottomed stone looks odd if it is perched, too high in a wood base and disguising the fact that the bottom is fat by placing it in a deep suiban is no better. Purists say a good stone should have 6 good sides. Left, right, front, back, top and bottom. Bottom? Why? Who's going to look? The Japanese love for ambiguity and obscured meaning, has an attraction and fascination for us in the west. It adds a certain degree of intensity to a largely un-understood culture and psyche . But it also frustrates. Here, it's called contradiction. When I lived in Japan I saw plenty of it, all the time. It certainly added intensity to every day life, which was fine when I was there because I knew I was going to leave some day. Funny thing though, in the monthly soft cover Suiseki magazines full of pictures of uncut stones, there are advertisments for the newest and best stone cutting tools and equipment. Oh we don't ever cut our stones... but if we do we use this tool or that. (Ambiguity or contradiction?) Many Chinese stones have been worked. Smoking, cutting, chiselling, polishing, grinding, sanding, being submerged in rivers for decades, are all techniques used to enhance Chinese stones. The Japanese never admit to ANY techniques of enhancement. I for one, do not believe the large number of stones (photographed in those beautiful show books) which are proported to be untouched. Look at hut stones for example. Have you ever wondered how amazing and precise the flow of water has to be to carve and erode a stone with a more or less symmetrical roof, a low and slightly narrower middle section, and a base which is wide again AND has a flat bottom? Now really. Joe mentioned stones which are bottom cut have razor sharp edges. He's right, in many cases (depending on the mineral and the shape of the stone) the edge is (to one degree or another) sharp. But, as we in the west are young at Bonsai and still learning from the Japanese, our stone cutters need too, to learn from the Japanese. All the bottom cut stones I bought in Japan have beautifully ("natural"?) rounded edges. If you look closely, under good light, you can just barely discern the faint marks of a fine grinding wheel. The work done to the perimeter edge is very good. It looks natural but can't be, just like the thousands of hut stones. If you think you have violated the spirit of a stone by cutting the bottom, consider this. A beautiful viewing stone still attached to a rock is in a constant state of being eroded and disintegrating into pebbles and dust in the river or desert. By removing the viewing stone, you have saved or at least prolonged it's "life" almost indefinitely. Your comment Joe, is well taken. Those that teach, must, in all good conscience, present both sides of an issue. But, it's the role of the student to surpass the teacher. I've found that people who accept evolution as inevitable tend to be less stiff and stuffy about life. The joy of collecting then viewing a stone, is at the heart of this. For me, an uncut stone is only marginally more amazing than a stone with a cut bottom. That margin is not enough wide enough to leave stones behind which need a cut to be enjoyed. As my taste has evolved to appreciate distant view stones (more than near view stones) and to accept and understand scholars stones, I am keeping an open mind to the rigors of collecting stones which do not need to be altered.