Archive-Date: Sun, 01 Mar 1998 05:10:17 PST Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca To: sashai@erols.com, viewing_stones@triumf.ca Date: Sat, 28 Feb 1998 08:28:20 +0000 Subject: Re: Dai-cutting tool Message-ID: <19980301.070947.14446.1.norbalt@juno.com> References: <01bd43ee$a9cffea0$16f4accf@sashai.erols.com> From: norbalt@juno.com Reply-To: norbalt@juno.com Chris, When I got married and took my wife back to New Delhi, India I had a teak wood vanity made for her as a Birthday gift. When we can back to the states U.S. Customs succeeded in damaging it as they pushed it through a x-ray machine to check what was inside the package and ended up breaking the leg joints at the connection. When it finally arrived here in Pawnee we were lucky enough to have an excellent cabinet maker here in town and I asked him to fix it for us. Well, he had some problems because he forgot about the oiliness of teak and so it took him a little longer to fix it than originally estimated, but he didn't charge me any extra. In any event, he told me that it is the oil in the teak that causes the problems both with gluing this wood and in the cutting that makes inhalation of the dust a real problem. They are finding that a lot of dusts from different woods can cause problems never known before. Most of the problems though are with oils in imported woods. Most of the problems with domestic wood dust is mostly particulate. Or so I have been told. God Bless and Keep You and Yours, Regards from Pawnee America Tom La Bron Home E-Mail: norbalt@juno.com Office E-Mail: norbal@okway.okstate.edu Good manners have much to do with the emotions. To make them ring true, one must feel them, not merely exhibit them. Amy Vanderbilt (1908-74), ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ On Fri, 27 Feb 1998 21:14:56 -0500 "Chris Cochrane" writes: >Garry writes >clip< >>... one fellow says that TEAK dust is toxic... > >I haven't heard about teak specifically, but there are warnings about >sawing chemically treated lumber. Ohio State University has some interesting >articles on industrial hygiene concerns over wood dust at >http://www.dreamscape.com/oasinc/health.htm-- including hotlinks to >articles articles on OSHA wood dust exposure standards for industry and on >woods toxic to man. Teak appears less toxic than Coco Bolo... but both >pale in comparison to Oleander's toxicity... :-((( > >Chris... C. Cochrane, mailto:sashai@erols.com, Richmond VA USA _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 02 Mar 1998 21:17:59 PST Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca Message-ID: <199803030508.AAA07747@ns.trigger.net> From: "shibui" Reply-To: "shibui" To: "stones viewing" Subject: re; Toking teak Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 00:06:46 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Aside from being difficult, but not impossible to glue, teak kills (dulls) sharp blades very quickly because of the silica in the wood. This is a common problem with many types of tropical wood. Teak is the wood of choise when wood is used in/on/around etc. water, ie. ships, vats, because it is one of the only types of wood which does not promote rust. Wood dust is harmful if inhaled. I have not heard of wood dust of one type being more toxic or dangerous than another. However, some people are more sensitive than others. (I'm not trying to be ambiguous or contradictory.) :-) Hope this helps, Arthur ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 03 Mar 1998 17:38:32 PST Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca From: "Garry Garcia" Reply-To: "Garry Garcia" To: "stones viewing" Subject: Re: Teak Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 19:38:26 -0600 Message-ID: <01bd470e$3a134ea0$855f47cc@ggarcia.vvm.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Well, after all I have seen on Teak, it would not be my wood of choice. I have never used it in practical application, has anyone, anyone, used this particular type of wood. If so did you encounter any problems that we should know of? Still in search of a good stone for the Coco Bolo, but Central Texas is not a choice area for collecting. We have mostly flaky limestone, shale, and alot of fossil material as this was once at the bottom of an ocean. Occasionally I will run across something interesting, but as my interest and knowledge expand, I am not satisfied with what I am finding here. Recently there have been some ads on the television for round trip and 4 nights accommodation to Beijing China @ $700 (American), it is tempting, but not in my budget. Has anyone else seen this, or is anyone planning to make the trip to Asia while the rates are dirt cheap? Thanks for all of the response to my question about Teak. Sincerely Garry Garcia ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 04 Mar 1998 04:57:38 PST Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca Reply-To: From: "Joe Davies" To: "Garry Garcia" , "stones viewing" Subject: Re: Teak Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 10:15:45 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: Garry writes..... > Well, after all I have seen on Teak, it would not be my wood of choice. I > have never used it in practical application, has anyone, anyone, used this > particular type of wood. If so did you encounter any problems that we > should know of? I have used it for a few daiza/stands. Its ok, but I didnt think it was anything special, I prefer many other woods to it. I didnt encounter health problems with it - it does have a very distinctive smell, but I didnt find it an irritant. > Still in search of a good stone for the Coco Bolo, but Central Texas is not > a choice area for collecting. We have mostly flaky limestone, shale, and > alot of fossil material as this was once at the bottom of an ocean. A few ideas..... - If your local geology is mainly sedimentary then be on the look-out for boulder clay type deposits, you will have them somewhere, the hard part is finding them. Some of the most famous sites are boulder clay deposits e.g/ Furuyaishi in Japan, Italian Liguria, some of Californian rivers, Ling-bi in China. - Check out for Limestone deposits, much limestone isnt suitable but some is, again the Ligurian, Furuyaishi, most of the Chinese are all Limestone, but old, hard limestone. If you have a lot of sedimentary rocks then I feel sure some are limestone. > Recently there have been some ads on the television for round trip and 4 > nights accommodation to Beijing China @ $700 (American), it is tempting, but > not in my budget. Has anyone else seen this, or is anyone planning to make > the trip to Asia while the rates are dirt cheap? A traveller I am not, but I also am tempted by the offers to China at the moment, more expensive here in the UK but still good value for money. Good quality Chinese Scholars stones can be found in Beijing, at reasonable prices, but beware the 'antique' shops selling to Singapore/Hong Kong businessman where you will find low quality stones at inflated prices. The smaller, back-street shops are the ones to track-down, where super stones can be found at good prices (my perception of good may be different to others!). If you go, then make sure you take some pics of Scholars Stones such as Rosenblum's WWW book with you, most of poplace, hotels etc wont have a clue what you are on about, but will recognise from the pictures and be able to point you in the right direction. Cheers Joe ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 04 Mar 1998 08:09:37 PST Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca Message-ID: <199803041609.KAA03580@mailroom.iamerica.net> Date: Wed, 04 Mar 1998 10:09:49 -0600 To: viewing_stones@triumf.ca From: Glen Miller Reply-To: Glen Miller Subject: Teak MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"
Joe and Garry write: Has anyone used Teak for diaza.
Yes I have used it especially when I plan on leaving a Viewing Stone outside in the weather. By simply applying teak oil on the diaza it protects the wood and the wood enhances the stone like framing a picture, but it can be left outside in all the elements. The wood cuts very smoothly with hand tools or power tools. Something to consider though is to place a drain hole much like a bonsai pot so any water that may accumulate in it may drain out before freezing. There is no waxing of the wood and the simple application of applying teak oil keeps it looking great. 
Remember when using any exotic woods that microscopic organisms may well exist. When breathing the dust particles of the woods it is advised to use a mask to filtrate these organism which may find a new host in your lungs and sinuses.
Glen Miller
Interested in Suiseki click here: http://cust2.iAmerica.net/diamonds/ ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 04 Mar 1998 09:04:40 PST Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca From: "Chris Cochrane" Reply-To: "Chris Cochrane" To: "Garry Garcia" , "stones viewing" Subject: airfares [was: Re: Teak] Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 11:55:07 -0500 Message-ID: <01bd478e$49756380$303eaccf@sashai.erols.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Recently there have been some ads on the television for round trip and 4 >nights accommodation to Beijing China @ $700 (American), it is tempting, but >not in my budget. Has anyone else seen this, or is anyone planning to make >the trip to Asia while the rates are dirt cheap? I'm always looking for the travel bargain & have planned to visit Vancouver BC in early April, but airfares from here are starting around $580 round-trip... :-( It would be no more & possibly less to see my friends in Italy, again. Now, I hear from you that China cost as little (even less considering accommodations included) from Texas. Here is a another thread we might consider on viewing stones. I'm a lone traveler who would appreciate pairing with others on collecting or viewing trips. I use Expedia and Travelocity internet travel services to plan and aggressively bargain. To my great surprise after emailing Microsoft's Expedia, they added Western Pacific airfares within days of my complaining that its fares were cheaper and available for scheduling/ticketing on the SABRE network. No doubt others were telling them the same thing, and Microsoft did listen! Then, Western Pacific folded... :-(... The phoenix Pan-American has also folded, I think, though there are suitors that may regenerate it. Other discount carriers such as Frontier Air (Denver & Tahoe gateways to other cities, www.flyfrontier.com ) have web pages with little info on their pricing and aren't tracked by many travel agents in my area or by the big internet travel services. Those who follow a local/regional carriers, however, may know of other great values. I wish I knew more. The internet search engines have been effectively "mined" by a few discount air carriers who have gotten their sites lifted to fill the early pages of the discount chart: ----- European Travel Network (http://www.etn.nl/ ) is one with many options, the best are for international flights and I haven't tried their hotel/car bookings. BTW, I am NOT the 22 year old Dutch blonde looking for a travel companion to Vancouver BC in April (but this gal seriously is listed among ETN's travelers looking for companions... which looks like a creative dating service...) ----- Airfare Hotline of America (http://www.discount-airfare.com/ ) has offers including: Special Limited Offer: Airfare plus hotel for 4 nights in Bangkok or Beijing! Round Trip Fares From CA From Midwest From East Coast Bangkok $579 $689 $698 Beijing $689 $689 $748 Based on 2 people traveling together Additional nights available Includes transfers between airport and hotel, full American breakfast daily, hotel taxes, and half-day sightseeing tour ----- Travel-For-Less, Airfare Buyers Coalition, Internet Airfares all lead to http://travel-for-less.com/airfares/domestic.html : If you were going to pay the standard rate anyway, some these guys offer a discount based on the cost of your ticket with several major airlines. On American, Continental, Delta, TWA, United and USAir. Valid on fares to all 50 US states, Canada, Mexico, Central and South America, Europe and the Caribbean on most of the listed airlines. (7-14 Day advance purchase & Saturday night stay required.) IF YOUR REGULAR AIRFARE IS: YOUR ABC DISCOUNT IS: $150 - $249 $25.00 $250 - $349 $50.00 $350 - $449 $75.00 $450 & UP! $100.00 Valid on fares to all 50 states. International discount levels may vary. The following blackout dates will apply: JUL 1-5, NOV 22-DEC 2, DEC 15-JAN 4. ----- When a bargain presents itself or a special viewing stone event, are others interested in planning around it? Chris... C. Cochrane, mailto:sashai@erols.com, Richmond VA USA ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 04 Mar 1998 20:43:29 PST Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca From: "Chris Cochrane" Reply-To: "Chris Cochrane" To: "stones viewing" Subject: travel [Was: Re: Teak] Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 23:33:44 -0500 Message-ID: <01bd47ef$e1ab55e0$e13daccf@sashai.erols.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Garry writes, > Recently there have been some ads on the television for >round trip and 4 nights accommodation to Beijing China >@ $700 (American), it is tempting, but not in my budget. >Has anyone else seen this, or is anyone planning to make >the trip to Asia while the rates are dirt cheap? I'm always looking for the travel bargain & have planned to visit Vancouver BC in early April, but airfares from here are starting around $580 round-trip... :-( It would be no more & possibly less to see my friends in Italy, again. Now, I hear from you that China cost as little (even less considering accommodations included) from Texas. Here is a another thread we might consider on viewing stones. I'm a lone traveler who would appreciate traveling with others on collecting or viewing trips. I use Expedia and Travelocity internet travel services to plan and aggressively bargain. To my great surprise Microsoft's Expedia added Western Pacific airfares within days of my complaining that its fares were cheaper and available for scheduling/ticketing on the SABRE network. No doubt others were telling them the same thing, and Microsoft did listen! Then, Western Pacific folded... :-(... The phoenix Pan-American has also folded, I think, though there are suitors that may regenerate it. Other discount carriers such as Frontier Air (Denver & Tahoe gateways to other cities, www.flyfrontier.com ) have web pages with little info on their pricing and aren't tracked by many travel agents in my area or by the big internet travel services. Those who follow local/regional carriers, however, may know of other great values. I wish I knew more. The internet search engines have been effectively "mined" by a few discount air carriers who have gotten their sites lifted to fill the early pages of the discount chart: ----- European Travel Network (http://www.etn.nl/ ) is one with many options, the best are for international flights and I haven't tried their hotel/car bookings. BTW, I am NOT the 22 year old Dutch blonde looking for a travel companion to Vancouver BC in April (but this gal seriously is listed among ETN's travelers looking for companions... which looks like a creative dating service...) ----- Airfare Hotline of America (http://www.discount-airfare.com/ ) has offers including: Special Limited Offer: Airfare plus hotel for 4 nights in Bangkok or Beijing! Round Trip Fares From CA From Midwest From East Coast Bangkok $579 $689 $698 Beijing $689 $689 $748 Based on 2 people traveling together Additional nights available Includes transfers between airport and hotel, full American breakfast daily, hotel taxes, and half-day sightseeing tour ----- Travel-For-Less, Airfare Buyers Coalition, Internet Airfares all lead to http://travel-for-less.com/airfares/domestic.html : If you were going to pay the standard rate anyway, some these guys offer a discount based on the cost of your ticket with several major airlines. On American, Continental, Delta, TWA, United and USAir. Valid on fares to all 50 US states, Canada, Mexico, Central and South America, Europe and the Caribbean on most of the listed airlines. (7-14 Day advance purchase & Saturday night stay required.) IF YOUR REGULAR AIRFARE IS: YOUR ABC DISCOUNT IS: $150 - $249 $25.00 $250 - $349 $50.00 $350 - $449 $75.00 $450 & UP! $100.00 Valid on fares to all 50 states. International discount levels may vary. The following blackout dates will apply: JUL 1-5, NOV 22-DEC 2, DEC 15-JAN 4. ----- When a bargain presents itself or a special viewing stone event, are others interested in planning around it? Chris... C. Cochrane, mailto:sashai@erols.com, Richmond VA USA ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 04 Mar 1998 22:03:35 PST Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca From: "Chris Cochrane" Reply-To: "Chris Cochrane" To: CC: Subject: Wood Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 00:54:23 -0500 Message-ID: <01bd47fb$2631c040$e13daccf@sashai.erols.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Had an interesting conversation with Mike Kelly at my woodworking supply house today. They had a 50% off sale on Lignum Vitea (8/4), Koa (8/4) & Myrtle (12/4) wood, and Mike was incredibly knowledgable on the properties of each. He convinced me that myrtle is highly valued for its connection to Wise Men et al. as well as for its properties as a wood. Mike ranks it highly for turning. I asked him about teak and teak dust and asked why Oleander is so bad for breathing. Mike responded that all woods are bad if their dust is inhaled and that teak is not the worst. Oleander and Ebony are especially bad because when cut, they produce a fine powder-like dust. Mike sees Coco Bolo as a wood much like teak for working. It cuts and splinters more like oak than forming powder like ebony. Generously, Mike offered his internet address for anyone with specific questions about woods. His shop carries a wide variety of woods and tools, and Mike is an accomplished woodcarver (preferring handcarving though skilled with very exotic power tools) and a seasoned carpenter. His shop (a Woodcraft Supply store) gets American Black Walnut at very favorable prices from a source in West Virginia. I see that Woodcraft Supply has stores from Maine south to Florida and Texas and west to California and Washington state. Chris... C. Cochrane, mailto:sashai@erols.com, Richmond VA USA ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 04 Mar 1998 22:43:50 PST Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19980304224232.007cfd70@mailhost.efn.org> Date: Wed, 04 Mar 1998 22:42:32 -0800 To: "Chris Cochrane" , "stones viewing" From: Herb Gustafson Reply-To: Herb Gustafson Subject: Re: travel [Was: Re: Teak] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" A local professor cancelled his group tour to China recently because all the people in the previous tour were assasinated and stripped of valuables. I worry not about getting a good deal. I would like to return. At 11:33 PM 3/4/98 -0500, Chris Cochrane wrote: >Garry writes, >> Recently there have been some ads on the television for >>round trip and 4 nights accommodation to Beijing China >>@ $700 (American), it is tempting, but not in my budget. >>Has anyone else seen this, or is anyone planning to make >>the trip to Asia while the rates are dirt cheap? > >I'm always looking for the travel bargain & have planned to visit Vancouver >BC in early April, but airfares from here are starting around $580 >round-trip... :-( It would be no more & possibly less to see my friends in >Italy, again. Now, I hear from you that China cost as little (even less >considering accommodations included) from Texas. > >Here is a another thread we might consider on viewing stones. I'm a lone >traveler who would appreciate traveling with others on collecting or viewing >trips. I use Expedia and Travelocity internet travel services to plan and >aggressively bargain. To my great surprise Microsoft's Expedia added >Western Pacific airfares within days of my complaining that its fares were >cheaper and available for scheduling/ticketing on the SABRE network. No >doubt others were telling them the same thing, and Microsoft did listen! >Then, Western Pacific folded... :-(... The phoenix Pan-American has also >folded, I think, though there are suitors that may regenerate it. > >Other discount carriers such as Frontier Air (Denver & Tahoe gateways to >other cities, www.flyfrontier.com ) have web pages with little info on their >pricing and aren't tracked by many travel agents in my area or by the big >internet travel services. Those who follow local/regional carriers, >however, >may know of other great values. I wish I knew more. > >The internet search engines have been effectively "mined" by a few discount >air carriers who have gotten their sites lifted to fill the early pages of >the >discount chart: >----- >European Travel Network (http://www.etn.nl/ ) is one with many options, the >best are for international flights and I haven't tried their hotel/car >bookings. BTW, I am NOT the 22 year old Dutch blonde looking for a travel >companion to Vancouver BC in April (but this gal seriously is listed among >ETN's travelers looking for companions... which looks like a creative dating >service...) >----- >Airfare Hotline of America (http://www.discount-airfare.com/ ) has offers >including: >Special Limited Offer: >Airfare plus hotel for 4 nights in Bangkok or Beijing! >Round Trip Fares From CA From Midwest From East Coast >Bangkok $579 $689 $698 >Beijing $689 $689 $748 >Based on 2 people traveling together >Additional nights available >Includes transfers between airport and hotel, full American breakfast daily, >hotel taxes, and half-day sightseeing tour >----- >Travel-For-Less, Airfare Buyers Coalition, Internet Airfares all lead to >http://travel-for-less.com/airfares/domestic.html : >If you were going to pay the standard rate anyway, some these guys offer a >discount based on the cost of your ticket with several major airlines. >On American, Continental, Delta, TWA, United and USAir. Valid on fares to >all 50 US states, Canada, Mexico, Central and South America, Europe and >the Caribbean on most of the listed airlines. (7-14 Day advance purchase & >Saturday night stay required.) >IF YOUR REGULAR AIRFARE IS: YOUR ABC DISCOUNT IS: >$150 - $249 $25.00 >$250 - $349 $50.00 >$350 - $449 $75.00 >$450 & UP! $100.00 >Valid on fares to all 50 states. International discount levels may vary. >The following blackout dates will apply: >JUL 1-5, NOV 22-DEC 2, DEC 15-JAN 4. >----- >When a bargain presents itself or a special viewing stone event, are others >interested in planning around it? > >Chris... C. Cochrane, mailto:sashai@erols.com, Richmond VA USA > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------ Herb Gustafson POB 40993, Eugene, OR 97404 hlg@efn.org Bonsai Author ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------ ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 06 Mar 1998 09:35:01 PST Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca From: "Chris Cochrane" Reply-To: "Chris Cochrane" To: CC: , Subject: Re: Dai-cutting tool Date: Fri, 6 Mar 1998 12:25:23 -0500 Message-ID: <01bd4924$d892edc0$b53daccf@sashai.erols.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Garry Garcia wrote, >I have a Dermal, with a few cutting and shaping blades, >a 10" chop saw and a jig saw. Wish I could invest in the >expensive good stuff, it would make life a little easier. I thought when I read Garry's comment that a chop saw was one of those tools used to cut pipe/conduit. After asking around, I am no wiser. Is a chop saw useful for shaping a dai or cutting a stone? I'd like to know of these creative solutions. Some chop saws have big 14" metal-cutting blades that grind-away pipe with their abrasive edges-- is this a stone cutter, too? Does the stability of a chop saw help in cutting a stone accurately and do you use the metal-cutting grinder blade or something else? What would invest in as "expensive good stuff" first, Garry (or others), and what would come later as your fortune and desire rose... :-)... ? Is there a saw/blade combination which would accurately cut a relatively hard stone of two-hand size that does not require penury to own? A kit or jury-rigged setup, perhaps? Throwing a good blade in a portable circular saw isn't enough [see "fumble-fingers reference below]... but what is next? David Waldo wrote, >...I have 3 tools that I have found indispensable: >- 16 inch variable speed scroll saw (not sure of the depth right now) >- 1 3/4 hp. Ryobi plunge router >- hand held "Dermal" tool with flexible shaft > >...The plunge router makes cutting out the inside of the dai >a snap, and making the lip on the dai. Felix Rivera also talked about using a plunge router to whip out a dai in a relatively short time, and I can only admit that I have some strange mental block that prevents me from picturing this. I understand how a plunge router works and appreciate that at 1 3/4 horsepower it is really cutting away at a furious clip. I can imagine eyeballing the general contours I would be cutting out, but leaving all of the time-consuming outside edge work to careful Dermal-like powercarving or hand carving. David says making the lip on a dai is a snap with the router, and doubtless that is true, but I can't fathom it. My fumble-fingers are subject to tear through that thin lip with hand-held tools if I'm not very careful. This plunge router skill seems incredible. Are you spacing the plunge router to cut at a certain distance outside of the inside of your dai cut so that the lip is uniform?... if not, how do you keep the lip's width uniform? What is the size of the tracking point?... even if it was small enough to recognize minute changes of contour, wouldn't the size of the cutter's radius preclude the outside cut from turning more radically than cutter's radius? Thanks, guys. Your advice is truly appreciated!!! Chris... C. Cochrane, mailto:sashai@erols.com, Richmond VA USA ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 06 Mar 1998 10:01:08 PST Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca Message-ID: <350055DE.E54D2B97@ionet.net> Date: Fri, 06 Mar 1998 12:00:30 -0800 From: Peter Aradi Reply-To: paradi@ionet.net MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Chris Cochrane , "viewing_stones@triumf.ca" Subject: Re: Dai-cutting tool References: <01bd4924$d892edc0$b53daccf@sashai.erols.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Chris Cochrane wrote: > BIG SNIP > David says making the lip on a dai is a snap with the router, and doubtless > that is true, but I can't fathom it. My fumble-fingers are subject to tear > through that thin lip with hand-held tools if I'm not very careful. This > plunge router skill seems incredible. Are you > spacing the plunge router to cut at a certain distance outside of the inside > of your dai cut so that the lip is uniform?... if not, how do you keep the > lip's width uniform? What is the size of the tracking point?... even if it > was small enough to recognize minute changes > of contour, wouldn't the size of the cutter's radius preclude the outside > cut from turning more radically than cutter's radius? > Chris: The plunge router indeed cuts the inside at a quick pace. The fine edge, at least as I try to do it, is done with a Dremel tool and by hand. As for the outside lip of the dai, I use a router bit with a guide roller. There are sveral types available, I have a roundover bit and an ogee bit, both have rollerbearing guides. Once the depth is set, the guide foolows the outside edge of the dai, maintaining a uniform distance from the edge. I suggest that you check out a book on routers from your local library. It will illustrate the process much better than I can describe it. Good luck with your dai making efforts. I had a lot of fun trying it with my two left hands, complete lack of manual dexterity, and general inaptitude. -- Peter Aradi Tulsa, Oklahoma A lover of the "world in miniature." (Penjing, scholar's stones, bonsai, suiseki, etc.) ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 06 Mar 1998 10:01:38 PST Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca Message-ID: <350055E2.98520038@ionet.net> Date: Fri, 06 Mar 1998 12:00:34 -0800 From: Peter Aradi Reply-To: paradi@ionet.net MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Chris Cochrane , "viewing_stones@triumf.ca" Subject: Re: Dai-cutting tool References: <01bd4924$d892edc0$b53daccf@sashai.erols.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Chris Cochrane wrote: > BIG SNIP > David says making the lip on a dai is a snap with the router, and doubtless > that is true, but I can't fathom it. My fumble-fingers are subject to tear > through that thin lip with hand-held tools if I'm not very careful. This > plunge router skill seems incredible. Are you > spacing the plunge router to cut at a certain distance outside of the inside > of your dai cut so that the lip is uniform?... if not, how do you keep the > lip's width uniform? What is the size of the tracking point?... even if it > was small enough to recognize minute changes > of contour, wouldn't the size of the cutter's radius preclude the outside > cut from turning more radically than cutter's radius? > Chris: The plunge router indeed cuts the inside at a quick pace. The fine edge, at least as I try to do it, is done with a Dremel tool and by hand. As for the outside lip of the dai, I use a router bit with a guide roller. There are sveral types available, I have a roundover bit and an ogee bit, both have rollerbearing guides. Once the depth is set, the guide foolows the outside edge of the dai, maintaining a uniform distance from the edge. I suggest that you check out a book on routers from your local library. It will illustrate the process much better than I can describe it. Good luck with your dai making efforts. I had a lot of fun trying it with my two left hands, complete lack of manual dexterity, and general inaptitude. -- Peter Aradi Tulsa, Oklahoma A lover of the "world in miniature." (Penjing, scholar's stones, bonsai, suiseki, etc.) ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 06 Mar 1998 17:43:12 PST Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca Reply-To: From: "Joe Davies" To: "Chris Cochrane" , CC: , Subject: Re: Dai-cutting tool Date: Fri, 6 Mar 1998 18:57:40 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: Chris C writes..... > What would invest in as "expensive good stuff" first, Garry (or others), and > what would come later as your fortune and desire rose... :-)... ? I would invest in a little wizenzed old Japanese daiza carver whose family have been carving daiza for a couple of thousand generations. He would sit in my garage, well fed and watered, I would have a slot to feed in wood and stones, and outbox for the finished product of suiseki. For those of you that have 'Men and Mountains Meet' check out #89 (which I nearly bought) and you will see what I mean. I have access to this suiseki and never fail to remove the stone from the stand and marvel at the daiza, it is a true work of art, in every sense of craftsmanship and beauty. Joe ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 06 Mar 1998 19:53:48 PST Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca Message-ID: <199803070353.VAA21204@mailroom.iamerica.net> Date: Fri, 06 Mar 1998 21:52:52 -0600 To: viewing_stones@triumf.ca From: Glen Miller Reply-To: Glen Miller Subject: Fwd: Re: Dai-cutting tool MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>Warnings-To: <>
>Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca
>Date: Fri, 06 Mar 1998 12:00:34 -0800
>From: Peter Aradi <paradi@ionet.net>
>Reply-To: paradi@ionet.net
>X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.02 [en]C-DIAL  (Win95; U)
>To: Chris Cochrane <sashai@erols.com>,
>        "viewing_stones@triumf.ca"
>    <viewing_stones@triumf.ca>
>Subject: Re: Dai-cutting tool
>
>Chris Cochrane wrote:
>>
>BIG SNIP
>> David says making the lip on a dai is a snap with the router, and doubtless
>> that is true, but I can't fathom it.  My fumble-fingers are subject to tear
>> through that thin lip with hand-held tools if I'm not very careful.  This
>> plunge router skill seems incredible.  Are you
>> spacing the plunge router to cut at a certain distance outside of the inside
>> of your dai cut so that the lip is uniform?... if not, how do you keep the
>> lip's width uniform?  What is the size of the tracking point?... even if it
>> was small enough to recognize minute changes
>> of contour, wouldn't the size of the cutter's radius preclude the outside
>> cut from turning more radically than cutter's radius?
>>
>
>Chris:
>
>The plunge router indeed cuts the inside at a quick pace. The fine edge,
>at least
>as I try to do it, is done with a Dremel tool and by hand.
>
>As for the outside lip of the dai, I use a router bit with a guide
>roller.
>There are sveral types available, I have a roundover bit and an ogee
>bit,
>both have rollerbearing guides. Once the depth is set, the guide foolows
>the outside edge of the dai, maintaining a uniform distance from the
>edge.
>
>I suggest that you check out a book on routers from your local library.
>It
>will illustrate the process much better than I can describe= it.
>
>Good luck with your dai making efforts. I had a lot of fun trying= it
>with
>my two left hands, complete lack of manual dexterity, and= general
>inaptitude.
>
>--
>Peter Aradi
>Tulsa, Oklahoma
>
>A lover of the "world in miniature."
>(Penjing, scholar's stones, bonsai, suiseki, etc.)
>


Hello Peter, Chris, The Group,

    Indeed the plunge router is= almost a necessity to achieve a fantastic diaza in just a short time. As= described in Filex's book, trace around the out side of the stone, with the= router remove the center. Then simply draw (freehand) or with a compass= another line of approximately 1/4 inch from the cut out portion of the= diaza. Do not change the depth of the router from what it was set when you= removed the wood where the stone will sit. Very carefully and with a slow= and cautious hand follow (outside edge) of  the line you drew with the= same blade in your router. This will leave the desired edge around your= viewing stone. Continue to remove all the wood on the top surface except= your new raised edge. Next you will want to decide what shape you want the= outside of your diaza to have (same as stone, square, or maybe round). Also= do you want the stand to bevel out or simply straight cut. What ever you= chose it will be easiest cut out on a scroll saw of some type. If you= choose straight cut leave your table flat, if you select a beveled sloping= edge tilt the table to the desired angle. Continue to cut out the shape you= have selected, slowly, so as not to burn the edge with the blade. The work= will go rather quickly. Now that you have the desired outside shape, turn= the diaza over to the bottom. mark the feet so they look to support the= stone. The next step is very important, set the desired depth on the router= and remove the wood from the feet in one single cut. This should be done= slowly to control the router. There are different plates that can be= adapted to the bottom of your router so you don't fall off the feet when= routing away the under area. The desired plate will have only a small hole= for the blade to protrude through but will be rather wide 6-8 inches in= diameter.  As Peter has said there are several different blades to= dress up the edges Look to see the type you will use most, as these are= very expensive, $10 to $40 each. I will use a combination of blades to= achieve the desired edge, and now own around 10 to 12 different ones. = I then use a stationary belt sander to rough sand as many edges as well as= the top and the bottom. This tool removes the material quickly, and all= that is left is some minor hand sanding.
    Router    &n= bsp; $120 to 250
    Router bits $10 to $40= each
    Scroll saw  $110  you= don't need  a variable speed
    Belt sander $100 One that sits= on a stand and can be stood straight up or flat.
    Belts $ 5 each you will want 80= grit for quick rough sanding 120 for fine sanding
    This is a quick version of how= to do it, but I can cut out and finish 2 diaza in around 4 to 5 hours for= the pair.
    In regards to the use of a flex= shaft it is very useful for intricate or complicated designs. Being a= Jeweler I have mastered it quite well ( enough to make a living at it).= Also I own an Automach but I use it only for more intricate designs.

Glen Miller
Interested in Suiseki click here: http://cust2.iAmerica.net/diamonds/ ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 06 Mar 1998 20:10:42 PST Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca From: "Garry Garcia" Reply-To: "Garry Garcia" To: "Chris Cochrane" , CC: Subject: Re: Dai-cutting tool Date: Fri, 6 Mar 1998 22:10:27 -0600 Message-ID: <01bd497e$f6026160$f79283d0@ggarcia.vvm.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Well Chris, if you really wanted to know what the laymen term for Miter Saw was you would have written me a personal e-mail and asked, and not sent the e-mail to the entire group in a somewhat sarcastic manner. Sears Craftsman Miter Saw (5500RPM) cuts wood, not rock, not Mickey mouse or home made. I did not find your e-mail to the group entertaining. Creative solutions indeed, I have seen your stands. Your note is child like, just like your promises and your attitude. You even put down Felix Rivera, who has been with this art for years prior to you ever even looking at a stand or rock, amazing how much of a genus you are in this field, I should thank you for you advise Chris!!!! But I wont.(:>) I apologize to the rest of the group for this somewhat pointed e-mail. But if you read his note below, he has personally attacked at least four people, and tried to make them look like jerks. Is he so much better than everyone else! Garry Garcia -----Original Message----- From: Chris Cochrane To: viewing_stones@triumf.ca Cc: dwaldo@telepath.com ; ggarcia@VVM.COM Date: Friday, March 06, 1998 11:44 AM Subject: Re: Dai-cutting tool >Garry Garcia wrote, >>I have a Dermal, with a few cutting and shaping blades, >>a 10" chop saw and a jig saw. Wish I could invest in the >>expensive good stuff, it would make life a little easier. > >I thought when I read Garry's comment that a chop saw was one of those tools >used to cut pipe/conduit. After asking around, I am no wiser. Is a chop >saw useful for shaping a dai or cutting a stone? I'd like to know of these >creative solutions. Some chop saws have big 14" metal-cutting blades that >grind-away pipe with their abrasive edges-- is this a stone cutter, too? >Does the stability of a chop saw help in cutting a stone accurately and do >you use the metal-cutting grinder blade or something else? > >What would invest in as "expensive good stuff" first, Garry (or others), and >what would come later as your fortune and desire rose... :-)... ? > >Is there a saw/blade combination which would accurately cut a relatively >hard stone of two-hand size that does not require penury to own? A kit or >jury-rigged setup, perhaps? >Throwing a good blade in a portable circular saw isn't enough [see >"fumble-fingers reference below]... but what is next? > >David Waldo wrote, >>...I have 3 tools that I have found indispensable: >>- 16 inch variable speed scroll saw (not sure of the depth right now) >>- 1 3/4 hp. Ryobi plunge router >>- hand held "Dermal" tool with flexible shaft >> >>...The plunge router makes cutting out the inside of the dai >>a snap, and making the lip on the dai. > >Felix Rivera also talked about using a plunge router to whip out a dai in a >relatively short time, and I can only admit that I have some strange mental >block that prevents me from picturing this. I understand how a plunge router >works and appreciate that at >1 3/4 horsepower it is really cutting away at a furious clip. I can imagine >eyeballing the general contours I would be cutting out, but leaving all of >the time-consuming outside edge work to careful Dermal-like powercarving or >hand carving. > >David says making the lip on a dai is a snap with the router, and doubtless >that is true, but I can't fathom it. My fumble-fingers are subject to tear >through that thin lip with hand-held tools if I'm not very careful. This >plunge router skill seems incredible. Are you >spacing the plunge router to cut at a certain distance outside of the inside >of your dai cut so that the lip is uniform?... if not, how do you keep the >lip's width uniform? What is the size of the tracking point?... even if it >was small enough to recognize minute changes >of contour, wouldn't the size of the cutter's radius preclude the outside >cut from turning more radically than cutter's radius? > >Thanks, guys. Your advice is truly appreciated!!! > >Chris... C. Cochrane, mailto:sashai@erols.com, Richmond VA USA > ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sat, 07 Mar 1998 07:52:01 PST Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca From: "Garry Garcia" Reply-To: "Garry Garcia" To: "Garry Garcia" , "Chris Cochrane" , CC: Subject: Re: Dai-cutting tool Date: Sat, 7 Mar 1998 09:51:51 -0600 Message-ID: <01bd49e0$f1f96fc0$c25f47cc@ggarcia.vvm.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Chris, I was really out of line, have a million excuses for being so blunt, but will not bore everyone with them. I should know your style by now, but something in the note was very disturbing to me, it shouldn't have been. Please accept my apology, you did not deserve my personal attack. Garry -----Original Message----- From: Garry Garcia To: Chris Cochrane ; viewing_stones@triumf.ca Cc: dwaldo@telepath.com Date: Friday, March 06, 1998 10:10 PM Subject: Re: Dai-cutting tool >Well Chris, if you really wanted to know what the laymen term for Miter Saw >was you would have written me a personal e-mail and asked, and not sent the >e-mail to the entire group in a somewhat sarcastic manner. > > Sears Craftsman Miter Saw (5500RPM) cuts wood, not rock, not Mickey mouse >or home made. > >I did not find your e-mail to the group entertaining. > >Creative solutions indeed, I have seen your stands. > >Your note is child like, just like your promises and your attitude. > >You even put down Felix Rivera, who has been with this art for years prior >to you ever even looking at a stand or rock, amazing how much of a genus you >are in this field, I should thank you for you advise Chris!!!! >But I wont.(:>) > >I apologize to the rest of the group for this somewhat pointed e-mail. But >if you read his note below, he has personally attacked at least four people, >and tried to make them look like jerks. Is he so much better than everyone >else! > >Garry Garcia > >-----Original Message----- >From: Chris Cochrane >To: viewing_stones@triumf.ca >Cc: dwaldo@telepath.com ; ggarcia@VVM.COM > >Date: Friday, March 06, 1998 11:44 AM >Subject: Re: Dai-cutting tool > > >>Garry Garcia wrote, >>>I have a Dermal, with a few cutting and shaping blades, >>>a 10" chop saw and a jig saw. Wish I could invest in the >>>expensive good stuff, it would make life a little easier. >> >>I thought when I read Garry's comment that a chop saw was one of those >tools >>used to cut pipe/conduit. After asking around, I am no wiser. Is a chop >>saw useful for shaping a dai or cutting a stone? I'd like to know of >these >>creative solutions. Some chop saws have big 14" metal-cutting blades that >>grind-away pipe with their abrasive edges-- is this a stone cutter, too? >>Does the stability of a chop saw help in cutting a stone accurately and do >>you use the metal-cutting grinder blade or something else? >> >>What would invest in as "expensive good stuff" first, Garry (or others), >and >>what would come later as your fortune and desire rose... :-)... ? >> >>Is there a saw/blade combination which would accurately cut a relatively >>hard stone of two-hand size that does not require penury to own? A kit or >>jury-rigged setup, perhaps? >>Throwing a good blade in a portable circular saw isn't enough [see >>"fumble-fingers reference below]... but what is next? >> >>David Waldo wrote, >>>...I have 3 tools that I have found indispensable: >>>- 16 inch variable speed scroll saw (not sure of the depth right now) >>>- 1 3/4 hp. Ryobi plunge router >>>- hand held "Dermal" tool with flexible shaft >>> >>>...The plunge router makes cutting out the inside of the dai >>>a snap, and making the lip on the dai. >> >>Felix Rivera also talked about using a plunge router to whip out a dai in a >>relatively short time, and I can only admit that I have some strange mental >>block that prevents me from picturing this. I understand how a plunge >router >>works and appreciate that at >>1 3/4 horsepower it is really cutting away at a furious clip. I can >imagine >>eyeballing the general contours I would be cutting out, but leaving all of >>the time-consuming outside edge work to careful Dermal-like powercarving or >>hand carving. >> >>David says making the lip on a dai is a snap with the router, and doubtless >>that is true, but I can't fathom it. My fumble-fingers are subject to tear >>through that thin lip with hand-held tools if I'm not very careful. This >>plunge router skill seems incredible. Are you >>spacing the plunge router to cut at a certain distance outside of the >inside >>of your dai cut so that the lip is uniform?... if not, how do you keep the >>lip's width uniform? What is the size of the tracking point?... even if it >>was small enough to recognize minute changes >>of contour, wouldn't the size of the cutter's radius preclude the outside >>cut from turning more radically than cutter's radius? >> >>Thanks, guys. Your advice is truly appreciated!!! >> >>Chris... C. Cochrane, mailto:sashai@erols.com, Richmond VA USA >> > ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sat, 07 Mar 1998 18:27:43 PST Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca Message-ID: <3502023A.956D8577@telepath.com> Date: Sat, 07 Mar 1998 20:28:11 -0600 From: David/Danielle Waldo Reply-To: David/Danielle Waldo MIME-Version: 1.0 To: viewing_stones@triumf.ca Subject: Re: Dai-cutting tool References: <01bd4924$d892edc0$b53daccf@sashai.erols.com> <350055E2.98520038@ionet.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Peter and Chris, I use a 1/2" bit on the router to do the inside since it is usually allot of wood that is removed. I then finish the inside with a 1/4" bit to get the detailed curves. Once the inside is cut, I mark the lip, 1/8" roughly, then mark the outside of the dai. Then I cut the outside with the scroll saw. Once this is done, I put the dai back into the wood where it was cut out and use the router to cut the lip. I use the 1/4" bit to cut the lip and I do it free hand. If I cut the lip very slowly I can usually get a fairly consistent width. If the lip has turns with an inside radius of less that 1/4" then I would go to the dremel tool. I haven't cut all the way through the lip yet, but I do have a few places where the lip is a little too thin. David ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sun, 08 Mar 1998 09:35:25 PST Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca From: "Chris Cochrane" Reply-To: "Chris Cochrane" To: Subject: Lexicon for landscape viewing Date: Sun, 8 Mar 1998 12:25:03 -0500 Message-ID: <01bd4ab7$215178e0$823eaccf@sashai.erols.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit When learning a language to describe the landscape and seeking pictures of both landscapes and stones to reinforce the image, the great surprise is that almost every significant formation in the landscape is deftly repeated in the natural contours of small stones. Here is a list for beginning: cirque, horn, arete, col, mesa, butte, spire, hoodoo, pinnacle, hanging valley, gorge, fissures, avalanche chute, arch, window, bridge, pothole, tinaja, waterpocket, weathering pit, river meander, braided channels, fumarole, travertine terraces What are other terms help enthusiasts see a natural formation in a contemplated stone? I'm most interested in learning terms that may not be generally recognized or accurately understood. For example, does "basin" have a specific meaning in the landscape which is commonly understood?... does it have a specific, poetic or derived meaning that enriches the understanding of a viewer by knowing it?... does it have a specific meaning used by small constituency that is enriching? Chinese & Japanese kanji script often has terrific hidden meanings underlying the concept it denotes. For example, TROUBLE= _komuru_ (Chinese): symbolized by single tree in a box-like enclosure because a tree in the center of an enclosed ground was considered bad [M. Bring & J. Wayemberg] (as is a tree centered in a shallow bonsai or penjing pot? CMC) and to put a single tree in an enclosed small garden was considered an invitation to invite misfortune [T. Itoh]. Ernest Fenollosa commented on numerous kanji characters of objects in nature and their hidden meanings in his early studies on Japanese aesthetics, but I can't find my notes to accurately report on them here, now... :-( In any case... if others have similar interest, please post. Thanks! Chris... C. Cochrane, mailto:sashai@erols.com, Richmond VA USA ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 10 Mar 1998 11:56:51 PST Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca From: Gary Bolstridge Reply-To: Gary Bolstridge Subject: Korean Soosuk To: viewing_stones@Triumf.CA (Suiseki Newsgroup) Date: Tue, 10 Mar 98 14:54:12 EST MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Message/rfc822 content-type:text/plain;charset=us-ascii mime-version:1.0 While in New York City this weekend, I visited Koreatown (between 31-33 streets and Madison to 6th Ave). I went into Koryo Books (32nd ST) and found a book about the Korean version of suiseki. In Korea the word is soosuk (pronounced "soo-suck"). The text of the book is in Korean but there are numerous pictures. My impression of the rocks dipicted in the photos are that the Koreans do not follow the more strict rules of suiseki (as I understand them), but at the same time are not quit as literal as the Chinese. I actually feel they present the stones very close to the way in which I practice suiseki. Another thing which intrigued me, is the stones are more like the stones which I can collect locally. I have seen Japanese stones (and Chinese) of such quality that I doubt I will ever find any like them in my local (Rhode Island, USA) area. This is encouraging to me because the stones which I have collected have personal value to me but I always felt they would be of little interest to others. Anyway, I recommend the book to those of you who are die-hard fans such as myself. I can give the following information about the book: Title: Soosuk Publisher: Daewonsa Publishing Co, Ltd (Korea, 1989) ISBN: 89-369-0072-2 #72 in a series of books about Korean Culture I also picked up #71 of the series which covers the Korean version of bonsai, called boonjae (pronounced "boon-jah"). My impression of Korean boonjae (again, based on the photos presented in the book), is a rule structure not as rigid as Japanese and not as loose as Chinese. To me the ratio is about 80% Japanese and 20% Chinese. These are just my impressions - others will probably argue with me. The ISBN for this book is not given, but the publisher is the same. Gary Bolstridge Rhode Island Bonsai Society ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 10 Mar 1998 16:58:18 PST Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca From: "Garry Garcia" Reply-To: "Garry Garcia" To: "Gary Bolstridge" , "Suiseki Newsgroup" Subject: Re: Korean Soosuk Date: Tue, 10 Mar 1998 18:56:33 -0600 Message-ID: <01bd4c88$893a3b40$859283d0@ggarcia.vvm.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thanks Gary, sounds like something I would enjoy. My wife is Korean, so perhaps she can help with the translation. I would be very interested to find out how Korean Soosuk is compared to all else. Garry -----Original Message----- From: Gary Bolstridge To: Suiseki Newsgroup Date: Tuesday, March 10, 1998 2:39 PM Subject: Korean Soosuk ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 10 Mar 1998 16:58:36 PST Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca From: "Garry Garcia" Reply-To: "Garry Garcia" To: "Gary Bolstridge" , "Suiseki Newsgroup" Subject: Re: Korean Soosuk Date: Tue, 10 Mar 1998 18:56:33 -0600 Message-ID: <01bd4c88$893a3b40$859283d0@ggarcia.vvm.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thanks Gary, sounds like something I would enjoy. My wife is Korean, so perhaps she can help with the translation. I would be very interested to find out how Korean Soosuk is compared to all else. Garry -----Original Message----- From: Gary Bolstridge To: Suiseki Newsgroup Date: Tuesday, March 10, 1998 2:39 PM Subject: Korean Soosuk ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 10 Mar 1998 19:43:09 PST Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca Message-ID: <199803110342.VAA28499@mailroom.iamerica.net> Date: Tue, 10 Mar 1998 21:43:17 -0600 To: viewing_stones@triumf.ca From: Glen Miller Reply-To: Glen Miller Subject: More Information MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"
Gary,
Thanks for sharing the information. I for one will look into the book you wrote about. I have a brother who is stationed in Korea, and I am planning a trip to Seoul this summer. If I can obtain a copy, I will take it with me. As Confucius said " a picture is worth a thousand words" Well anyway I think he said that :-)
Glen Miller
Interested in Suiseki click here: http://cust2.iAmerica.net/diamonds/ ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 10:13:49 PST Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 14:04:11 +0900 To: viewing_stones@triumf.ca From: bodhi@his.com (Cathy Gaber) Reply-To: bodhi@his.com (Cathy Gaber) Subject: speaker Dear List Members, I would love to have a talk on suiseki for my Washington, DC mineral club. If anyone is interested, please contact me. Thanks. Cathy Gaber bodhi@his.com ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 11:19:15 PST Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca Message-ID: <3506E3DD.5919@usmo.com> Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 13:19:57 -0600 From: Mary Ann Hamer Reply-To: hamers@usmo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 To: viewing_stones@triumf.ca Subject: Suiseki Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi - I'm interested in seeing your web pages so that I can understand more about this hobby. I'm not, at this point, sure I have enough interest to join the list but since I love collecting rocks, maybe I will be after I understand it better. Maryann Hamer hamers@usmo.com ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 11:25:57 PST Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca Message-ID: <011901bd4d23$a7f976e0$25645a8e@ipg06.triumf.ca> From: "Craig J. Hunt" Reply-To: "Craig J. Hunt" To: , Subject: Re: Suiseki Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 11:26:54 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mary Ann Hamer wrote; >Hi - I'm interested in seeing your web pages so that I can understand >more about this hobby. I'm not, at this point, sure I have enough >interest to join the list but since I love collecting rocks, maybe I >will be after I understand it better. Hi Mary Ann; I have a web page at; http://www.geocities.com/Tokyo/Garden/1666/viewingstones.htm which has a link to every viewing stone related page on the net. (Anyone know of any I've missed?) Have fun! Craig J. Hunt in Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada home; craig_hunt@geocites.com work; craig@triumf.ca http://www.triumf.ca/people/craig/craig.htm ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 13:35:47 PST Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca From: "Chris Cochrane" Reply-To: "Chris Cochrane" To: Subject: Travel on short notice Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 16:25:26 -0500 Message-ID: <01bd4d34$355d7f80$a9f4accf@sashai.erols.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit For US viewing stone enthusiasts with an opportunity for last minute travel, the attached email list service appears to offer terrific airfares. I'm not a salesman, but think this might be worth sharing as received... It appears to be distributed from an Australian web site, so perhaps they have an international airfare equivalent. Unfortunately, I see no offers to the USA's latest viewing stone hotbed-- Tulsa OK... :-( No derisiveness intended Glen, Peter & David... Garry... :-) ----------------- ************** TravelNews Mar. 11, 1998 ********************* "The best in Travel Information for the Intelligent, On-lineTraveller." To SUBSCRIBE/UNSUBSCRIBE this FREE News Service, send email to Lists@alchemy.ausweb.net.au with the words SUBSCRIBE TRAVELNEWS in the BODY (not SUBJ) of your email. (No costs involved, all addresses confidential, can cancel anytime, will receive 2-3 emails per month regarding Fare Wars, Cruise and Vacation specials, Airline news, and other Travel-Related news.) Dear Client, Most Airlines are continuing to expand their offerings for discount flights to Europe this Spring and Summer. TWA has just announced very low rates for travel through June 15. (Other carriers are matching.) Remember that purchasing tickets during these "sale" periods for Europe can save you up to 50% over purchases made later in the Spring. Hurry ! Availability is limited and this sale ends in a few days. 800-638-6786 (9am-6pm EST) ** Always ask about our Preferred Fares for even more savings on Domestic and International Travel. These fares are lower than the airlines themselves !! ** Whenever you call, please identify yourself as a TravelNews Priority caller for faster service!! 800-638-6786 (9am-6pm EST) >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Below are the special Internet Fares for travel this weekend. ** Please note....Many of you have written to us to request fares from certain cities or to certain destinations. These "Internet" fares vary tremendously according to the markets that the airlines are attempting to fill empty seats on. Some weeks you may see discounts that are applicable to your travel plans and some weeks you may not. We do not have control over these fares nor can we predict when these fares may help you with your individual needs. ** USAirways For travel this weekend, call toll free 1-888-FLY-E-SAVERS or 1-888-359-3728 (NOTE: 888, not 800) and request one of the E-Savers listed below. E-Savers for travel beginning Saturday, March 14, 1998 and returning Sunday,March 15, 1998, Monday, March 16, 1998 or Tuesday, March 17, 1998: Roundtrip Fares Departing From BALTIMORE, MD To -------------------------------------------------- $99 BOSTON, MA $89 PITTSBURGH, PA (*) $89 PROVIDENCE, RI Roundtrip Fares Departing From BUFFALO, NY To -------------------------------------------------- $89 PITTSBURGH, PA (*) Roundtrip Fares Departing From CHARLOTTE, NC To -------------------------------------------------- $79 CHATTANOOGA, TN $99 CLEVELAND, OH $129 MINNEAPOLIS/ST. PAUL, MN $79 RALEIGH/DURHAM, NC $79 RICHMOND, VA $249 SAN FRANCISCO, CA $79 WILMINGTON, NC Roundtrip Fares Departing From COLUMBUS, OH To -------------------------------------------------- $79 PITTSBURGH, PA (*) Roundtrip Fares Departing From LOS ANGELES, CA To -------------------------------------------------- $249 CHARLOTTE, NC Roundtrip Fares Departing From NEW YORK, NY -- LAGUARDIA To -------------------------------------------------- $89 BALTIMORE, MD $89 BUFFALO, NY Roundtrip Fares Departing From PHILADELPHIA, PA To -------------------------------------------------- $109 CHICAGO, IL $99 CLEVELAND, OH $99 DETROIT, MI $89 HARTFORD, CT $133.09 MONTREAL, PQ Roundtrip Fares Departing From PITTSBURGH, PA To -------------------------------------------------- $79 ALLENTOWN, PA $89 BALTIMORE, MD (*) $89 BINGHAMTON, NY $89 BUFFALO, NY (*) $99 BURLINGTON, VT $99 CHICAGO, IL $79 COLUMBUS, OH (*) $89 DETROIT, MI $89 GRAND RAPIDS, MI $79 HARRISBURG, PA $89 INDIANAPOLIS, IN $79 LOUISVILLE, KY $99 MILWAUKEE, WI $89 NEWARK, NJ $79 NORFOLK, VA $79 RICHMOND, VA $79 ROANOKE, VA $89 WASHINGTON, DC -- DULLES $89 WESTCHESTER COUNTY, NY Roundtrip Fares Departing From ROCHESTER, NY To -------------------------------------------------- $89 PHILADELPHIA, PA Roundtrip Fares Departing From WASHINGTON, DC -- NATIONAL To -------------------------------------------------- $89 ROCHESTER, NY (*) Indicates available for travel originating in either city =================================================== Continetal Internet Fares This week's specials are good for the following markets departing Saturday, March 14 and returning on either Monday, March 16 or Tuesday, March 17. To purchase your low fare CO.O.L. Travel Specials, simply call 1-800-642-1617. TRAVEL MAY ORIGINATE IN EITHER CITY: Roundtrip Fare For Travel BETWEEN: $79 Cleveland, OH - Louisville, KY $109 Cleveland, OH - Milwaukee, WI $159 Cleveland, OH - New York/Newark (Newark only) $159 Cleveland, OH - Richmond, VA $99 Houston, TX - Victoria, TX $119 Houston, TX - Birmingham, AL $139 Houston, TX - Monroe, LA $179 Houston, TX - Wichita, KS $79 Jacksonville, FL - Pensacola, FL $69 Los Angeles, CA - San Francisco, CA $119 New York/Newark (Newark only) - Portland, ME $119 New York/Newark (Newark only) - Raleigh Durham, NC $129 New York/Newark (Newark only) - Atlanta, GA $139 New York/Newark (Newark only) - Greensboro/Piedmont Triad, NC $159 New York/Newark (Newark only) - Indianapolis, IN $249 New York/Newark (Newark only) - Orange County/Santa Ana, CA $289 New York/Newark (Newark only) - Portland, OR ==================================================== Northwest Airlines CyberSaver Fares....to book call 800-692-6961 Roundtrip Fares To/From Detroit, MI : Greensboro/High Point, NC $99 Richmond, VA $99 Atlanta, GA $119 Dayton, OH $119 New York-John F. Kennedy, NY $119 Washington-Dulles, DC $139 Roundtrip Fares To/From Memphis, TN: Birmingham, AL $79 Fort Smith, AR $79 Jacksonville, FL $119 Philadelphia, PA $129 Roundtrip Fares To/From Minneapolis/St. Paul, MN: Green Bay, WI $89 Lincoln, NE $89 Rockford, IL $89 Winnipeg, MB, Canada $99 USD $181 CAD Edmonton, AB, Canada $159 USD $245 CAD Sacramento, CA $169 ============================================== TWA Special Internet Fares....Call 800-221-2000 (for travel this weekend only, ares can originate in either city.) $69 Round trip: St. Louis, MO and Milwaukee, WI $79 Round trip: Detroit, MI and New York (JFK), NY St. Louis, MO and Minneapolis, MN St. Louis, MO and Tulsa, OK $99 Round trip: Milwaukee, WI and Tulsa, OK $129 Round trip: St. Louis, MO and Atlanta, GA All information provided by airlines and other travel suppliers. Rates subject to availability and can change at anytime. TravelNews does not guarantee the accuracy of any travel information provided by airlines or other travel suppliers. --------------- Best wishes for all, Chris... C. Cochrane, mailto:sashai@erols.com, Richmond VA USA ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 12 Mar 1998 11:55:59 PST Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca Message-ID: <35083CA6.214CBB76@bendnet.com> Date: Thu, 12 Mar 1998 11:51:02 -0800 From: Ron Ott Reply-To: Ron Ott MIME-Version: 1.0 To: viewing_stones@triumf.ca Subject: Suiseki listserv Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit subscribe ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 12 Mar 1998 14:17:05 PST Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca Message-ID: <199803122206.XAA10400@inrete-relay.inrete.it> Date: Thu, 12 Mar 1998 23:00:54 +0100 To: "Chris Cochrane" , From: marco favero Reply-To: marco favero Subject: Re: Lexicon for landscape viewing MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Chris,
i don't know if i answer to your request, but i suggest you read the great book
" Sakuteiki ",the text which learns to build japanese gardens:the main approach
is the nature from the point of view of zen meditation,where the man is projected for to learn his true place and the essence of his happiness.

then i propose you a  small tour around some japanese garden in search of
their deep meaning and their symbolism,i begin with the Tenryu-ji garden to
Kyoto:
the monk Muso Kokushi built this garden around a small lake with many stones
skilfully arranged with a so-said dry waterfall where a stone shows a carp which
tries to remount waterfall for to become dragon. Over the dry water a bridge
of stone symbolizes the taoism,confucianism and bouddhism,and the sage must
control and dominate the three doctrines for to have the illumination which
symbolizes the bridge's passage.

in the garden's art the stone is more than a rock,and three stones can represent
the Chinese Triads :the sky,the earth and the man or Siddharta Gautama with his
two disciples,or Buddha with his two bodhisattva.
But also stone is an aesthetic object,i.e. a solid with six faces and each face has
its own name,in gardens the stones are partially buried and also this part has a
name.

In the garden of Tokai-an (Kyoto) or  garden of archipelagos of eastern sea,
we can see the taoist legend of three islands Horai,Hojo and Eishu where live
the Immortals, and in the interior garden seven stones ,four big and three small,
are arranged with gravel around to show the rotation of sun and moon around
the mountain Sumeru which is the  center of buddhism universe.

In the Ryoan-ji (Kyoto) the stones are 15 and we can admire the "mono-no-aware" spirit, i.e. the research of contemplative harmony for to surpass the anguiss of world's precariousness.someone says that they are the islands on the
sea of clouds,one another thinks that they are " tora-no-ko watashi " the tiger
which accompanies its sons across the river , maybe this garden is the symbol
of illumination the final object of buddhism:in according with zen philosophy
the illumination can come in each moment of daily life and during the practice of an art. the school of Rinzai says that during the meditation the master asks to disciple some paradoxal problem of which the solving finds not with a reasoning but wit the perception,these problems are called Koan,maybe the
Ryoan-ji is a koan.

The Daisen-in garden guides us into fancied spaces and metaphoric teachings,
each detail is a meditation's theme: six stones encircled by gravel are togheter
an island on sea and a tortoise,the tortoise island symbolizes the material life and
longevity; the stone-island-heron represents the immortal life,the bridge is the
symbol of youth ,the mountain the wealth,the stream carries the life,the boat,
another stone, brings the treasures of experience and the sea the treasures
of eternity.

The japanese gardens are enjoyment's gardens Chitei,contemplation's gardens  Kare-sansui,thea ceremony's gardens or Roji .
in stones zen is felt like a way to obtain an universe's image under the most
concentrated form, and it bases itself  on asymmetry "Fukinsei",on simplicity
"Kanso" which can have a great value "Koko" in rocks gardens.

i know that i answered partially to your requestes,but i wished to underline
the narrow links between suiseki and dry gardens in Japan,each symbol can
be translated from  one to other because the world of meditation is the same.
my best wishes.

marco
****************************************************************************= ********************
At 12.25 08/03/98 -0500, you wrote:
>When learning a language to describe the landscape and seeking pictures of
>both landscapes and stones to reinforce the image, the great surprise is
>that almost every significant formation in the landscape is deftly repeated
>in the natural contours of small stones.
>
>Here is a list for beginning:
>cirque, horn, arete, col, mesa, butte, spire, hoodoo, pinnacle, hanging
>valley, gorge, fissures, avalanche chute, arch, window, bridge, pothole,
>tinaja, waterpocket, weathering pit, river meander, braided channels,
>fumarole, travertine terraces
>
>What are other terms help enthusiasts see a natural formation in a
>contemplated stone?=A0 I'm most interested in learning terms that may not be
>generally recognized or accurately understood.=A0 For example, does "basin"
>have a specific meaning in the landscape which is commonly understood?...
>does it have a specific, poetic or derived meaning that enriches the
>understanding of a viewer by knowing it?... does it have a specific meaning
>used by small constituency that is enriching?
>
>Chinese & Japanese kanji script often has terrific hidden meanings
>underlying the concept it denotes.=A0 For example,
>
>TROUBLE=3D _komuru_ (Chinese): symbolized by single tree in a box-like
>enclosure because a tree in the center of an enclosed ground was considered
>bad [M. Bring & J. Wayemberg] (as is a tree centered in a shallow bonsai or
>penjing pot?=A0 CMC) and to put a single tree in an enclosed small garden was
>considered an invitation to invite misfortune [T. Itoh].
>
>Ernest Fenollosa commented on numerous kanji characters of objects in nature
>and their hidden meanings in his early studies on Japanese aesthetics, but I
>can't find my notes to accurately report on them here, now... :-(
>
>In any case... if others have similar interest, please post.=A0 Thanks!
>
>Chris... C. Cochrane, mailto:sashai@erols.c= om, Richmond VA USA
> ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 11:42:21 PST Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca Message-ID: <199803161942.LAA28918@mailtod-162.iap.bryant.webtv.net> From: ShaAk@webtv.net (Sharon Hemry) Reply-To: ShaAk@webtv.net (Sharon Hemry) Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 10:42:12 -0900 To: viewing_stones@triumf.ca Subject: stones Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) I am interested in seeing your web site, will you email me your web page address? Thank you, Sharon Hemry ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 16:42:48 PST Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca Message-ID: <000901bd52d0$32147a80$25645a8e@ipg06.triumf.ca> From: "Craig J. Hunt" Reply-To: "Craig J. Hunt" To: Subject: Geology and Art column Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 16:44:36 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0006_01BD528D.22DFA370" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01BD528D.22DFA370 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Gang; Was browsing around the net and found this page. I thought a few others on the list might like to read it too. http://geology.miningco.com/library/weekly/aa061597.htm Craig J. Hunt in Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada home; craig_hunt@geocites.com work; craig@triumf.ca http://www.triumf.ca/people/craig/craig.htm ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01BD528D.22DFA370 Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name="97.url" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="97.url" [InternetShortcut] URL=http://geology.miningco.com/library/weekly/aa061597.htm Modified=A0E90A58CF52BD01CA ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01BD528D.22DFA370-- ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 18:20:27 PST Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19980318212615.00a4e530@popd.ix.netcom.com> Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 21:26:15 -0500 To: viewing_stones@triumf.ca From: Emery Dennis Reply-To: Emery Dennis Subject: Unsolicited Emails (was Re: Geology and Art column) CC: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 04:44 PM 3/18/98 -0800, you wrote: >Hi Gang; > >Was browsing around the net and found this page. I thought a few others on >the list might like to read it too. > >http://geology.miningco.com/library/weekly/aa061597.htm > >Craig J. Hunt in Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada >home; craig_hunt@geocites.com work; craig@triumf.ca >http://www.triumf.ca/people/craig/craig.htm > >Attachment Converted: "C:\EUDORA\Attach\97.url" > An unsolicited email from an unknown address has been received at and automatically deleted from the server. Please do not send any more messages to this address. If this message is from a mailing list, I did not subscribe to this list, so please remove my address from your list or contact your list owner or administrator to remove my name from your list. All messages from this and all other unknown addresses will be automatically deleted from the server after receiving this reply. In the future, please authenticate subscription requests. ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 19 Mar 1998 14:34:29 PST Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca From: "Chris Cochrane" Reply-To: "Chris Cochrane" To: Subject: 900 seasons of suiseki Date: Thu, 19 Mar 1998 15:55:13 -0500 Message-ID: <01bd5379$503f0ee0$LocalHost@sashai.erols.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit When Norry Kirschten wrote in Bonsai Magazine (Jan/Fb '98) of "The Historic Japanese Stone Aesthetic," he commented on the theme of display being determined by "more than 900 seasons of the suiseki year" requiring detailed knowledge of the Japanese symbols, forms and colors. I suppose this is like the calendar of changes in kimono where specific inner and outer garment colors are expected to be worn to reflect the budding and blooming of various flowers throughout the year. I would like to learn details of the suiseki display themes as they unfold throughout the year. Is there a publication in English that discerns them. In addition to symbols-forms-colors identified throughout the year, do the themes always relate to nature's seasons, to various emotions related to the seasons, to display tables and stands appropriate for limited seasons, to hanging scrolls-grasses-bonsai appropriate for special occasions as well as for designated calendar events? Any advice would be appreciated. Chris... C. Cochrane, mailto:sashai@erols.com, Richmond VA USA ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 19 Mar 1998 14:37:29 PST Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca From: "Chris Cochrane" Reply-To: "Chris Cochrane" To: Subject: Furuya-ishi Date: Thu, 19 Mar 1998 15:34:44 -0500 Message-ID: <01bd5376$73cb6dc0$LocalHost@sashai.erols.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Furuya-ishi are a mountain landscape viewing stones from Japan which have smooth black or gray-black dense limestone sides. They may have deep indentations, vertical mineral veins and a white or gray-white band encircling the base. These stones come from mountains in Wakayama prefecture, and are the stones to which Ligurian Alps stones are often compared. When Marco Favero sent Lynn Boyd a Ligurian stone, he left a base of clay at the bottom of a limestone cliff-- Marco was sensitive to the classic aesthetic of displaying a Furuya-ishi stone with a band encircling the base. In the Covello/Yoshimura text, the Furuya-ishi stone is noted as having its black peaks found below ground whereas the light colored material at the base of the mountain is exposed. In Italy, the entire stone is below ground, but also the base is found pointing upward in the ground. In Italy, the entire stone is encased in the gray-white clay. To retain the banding, perhaps we are well advised not to rely on acid dipping to clean these stones. At above 5% solution of Muriatic acid (31.5% hydrogen chloride), I found that the acid etches the exposed limestone surface and can affect its depth of color. --- On another Furuya-ishi topic: In his _Kei Do_ videotapes, Ichiu Katayama distinguishes a Furuya-ishi stone as distinct from suiseki. Is he suggesting that stones from a watery source (sea shore, river et al.) should be distinguished from stones from a mountain source? Certainly the Japanese recognize stones other than Furuya-ishi as from mountain sources (e.g., Nachiguro-ishi & Seigaku-ishi-- the latter often referring generically to "mountain range" stones whether or not from the mountains of Shizuoka prefecture for which they are named). Also, Furuya-ishi are often displayed as coastal rock stones. Has anyone else wondered about Katayama's description?. Is there a "Seki-yama" or other term used generically for stones found in mountains as distinct from those found at water sources? I assume all are suiseki, but K atayama's videotape suggest otherwise. Any advice would be appreciated. Chris... C. Cochrane, mailto:sashai@erols.com, Richmond VA USA ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 19 Mar 1998 16:11:12 PST Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca Message-ID: <3511D015.149C23F@ionet.net> Date: Thu, 19 Mar 1998 18:10:29 -0800 From: Peter Aradi Reply-To: paradi@ionet.net MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Chris Cochrane CC: viewing_stones@triumf.ca Subject: Re: 900 seasons of suiseki References: <01bd5379$503f0ee0$LocalHost@sashai.erols.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Chris Cochrane wrote: > > SNIP > I would like to learn details of the suiseki display themes as they unfold > throughout the year. Is there a publication in English that discerns them. > In addition to symbols-forms-colors identified throughout the year, do the > themes always relate to nature's seasons, to various emotions related to the > seasons, to display tables and stands appropriate for limited seasons, to > hanging scrolls-grasses-bonsai appropriate for special occasions as well as > for designated calendar events? > > Any advice would be appreciated. Chris: I don't know any publication that gives you all the answers to your questions, but if I may shamelesly plug my own article, I suggest that you look at the latest issue of Bonsai, the Journal of the American Bonsai Society, and you will find an article on "Trees as Symbols." The bibliography lists several publications which may interest you and will give some of the answers you seek. -- Peter Aradi Tulsa, Oklahoma A lover of the "world in miniature." (Penjing, scholar's stones, bonsai, suiseki, etc.) ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 19 Mar 1998 16:32:54 PST Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca Message-ID: <3511D520.FF8E3FE3@ionet.net> Date: Thu, 19 Mar 1998 18:32:00 -0800 From: Peter Aradi Reply-To: paradi@ionet.net MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "viewing_stones@triumf.ca" Subject: Collecting sites in CA References: <01bd4ab7$215178e0$823eaccf@sashai.erols.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Folks: My wife and I are planning our big yearly vacation. We will drive from Tulsa, OK to Denver, Salt Lake City, Reno, Sacramento, Ukiah, San Francisco, San Jose, Yosemite NP, Los Angeles, Riverside, Grand Canyon, Albuquerque, and back to Tulsa. If you know any collecting sites near the above listed itinerary which is accessible to a two wheel drive sedan and within walking distance for a rather gimpy old man, please send it to me. All suggestions are appreciated in advance. - Peter Aradi Tulsa, Oklahoma A lover of the "world in miniature." (Penjing, scholar's stones, bonsai, suiseki, etc.) ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 20 Mar 1998 02:45:18 PST Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca Reply-To: From: "Joe Davies" To: "Chris Cochrane" , Subject: Re: Furuya-ishi Date: Fri, 20 Mar 1998 09:55:22 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: A few comments and the odd snippet of info on this topic.... Chris writes..... > Furuya-ishi are a mountain landscape viewing stones from Japan which have > smooth black or gray-black dense limestone sides. They may have deep > indentations, vertical mineral veins and a white or gray-white band > encircling the base. These stones come from mountains in Wakayama > prefecture, and are the stones to which Ligurian Alps stones are often > compared. Ligurian and Furuya stones are very similar:- both have a similar mineral composition, both have been formed in similar geological times and processes, both come in a variety of sizes, shapes and styles. The biggest difference is that Furuya material is harder and denser, and tends to have more textural/structural detailing, possibily a resultant of it being harder. I have heard authors referring to the origin of these stones as karst, but I doubt this, I feel they are simply a variant of a boulder clay. I speculate their origin is from a Palaeozoic limestone strata that was exposed in Tertiary period, where it was eroded and fractured into smaller lumps, then water-worn, and re-buried into the modern sedimentary layer that it is found in today. > When Marco Favero sent Lynn Boyd a Ligurian stone, he left a base of clay at > the bottom of a limestone cliff-- Marco was sensitive to the classic > aesthetic of displaying a Furuya-ishi stone with a band encircling the base. The clay which both types of stone are found in, is harder on the Furuya stones. Much of the Ligurian clay that I have observed is quite soft. I personally feel that all the clay should be removed, otherwise the cleaning proces almost becomes a shaping i.e. selectively leaving elements of a softer material to enhance the image. But, of course, this is an individual choice of the collector. > In the Covello/Yoshimura text, the Furuya-ishi stone is noted as having its > black peaks found below ground whereas the light colored material at the > base of the mountain is exposed. In Italy, the entire stone is below > ground, but also the base is found pointing upward in the ground. In Italy, > the entire stone is encased in the gray-white clay. I believe that Furuya stones are now found completely 'immersed' in the clay deposit. > Has anyone else wondered about Katayama's description?. Is there a > "Seki-yama" or other term used generically for stones found in mountains as > distinct from those found at water sources? I assume all are suiseki, but K > atayama's videotape suggest otherwise. I doubt this is the case. The Japanese term their stones from location of origin. Furuya is probably the 'premier' suiseki material in Japan and this may be why it is discussed as a distinct reference to 'other' suiseki in the Kei-do video. One of the most interesting aspects of this topic for me is that sites as far apart as Liguria and Furuya have very similar sedimentary deposits containing these wonderful suiseki. I believe these sites cannot be 'unique' and that other similar deposits must exist in other countries. As suiseki grows in popularity I am hopeful that collectors will discover new sites that contain similar material and stones to the Liguria/Furuya regions. In the UK, we have a very rich and varied sedimentary geology, and I have seen deposits of clay very similar to the Liguria/Furuya clay, but without the stones. I will keep searching for the pot of gold ! Regards Joe ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 07:41:48 PST Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca From: "Chris Cochrane" Reply-To: "Chris Cochrane" To: , Subject: Ligurian stones and Furuya-ishi Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 10:31:01 -0500 Message-ID: <01bd5670$af744340$c93daccf@sashai.erols.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thanks, Joe, for sharing your firsthand knowledge of both Ligurian and Furuyaishi stones. You write, >Ligurian and Furuya stones are very similar:- both have >a similar mineral composition, both have been formed in >similar geological times and processes, both come in a >variety of sizes, shapes and styles. The biggest difference >is that Furuya material is harder and denser, and tends to >have more textural/structural detailing, possibly a resultant >of it being harder. On being harder, Joe, can you distinguish between these stones based on what scratches them? Among Ligurian limestone to which I was introduced, most are not scratched or chipped (except that the tiniest pinnacles can break) by a strongly applied rotating steel brush which is used to remove clay. On one stone, however, I noted that a deep, black finish which was exposed after a mild (20% solution Muriatic acid bath) turned to a very deep silver-olive color after high-speed steel brushing. There certainly appears to be a range of hardness among Ligurian stones... and perhaps there surface impenetrability is affected by acid as well as limestone composition. Your earlier comment warning about the steel-sheen that can be applied to a stone by rotating brushes is well-taken, though I saw stones as they were brushed by LucianaQ, ChiaraP and AndreS that appeared to take-on no extra sheen at all. Another art must be to know when to stop "cleaning (polishing)." >I have heard authors referring to the origin of these stones >as karst, but I doubt this, I feel they are simply a variant of >a boulder clay. I speculate their origin is from a Palaeozoic >limestone strata that was exposed in Tertiary period, where >it was eroded and fractured into smaller lumps, then water >-worn, and re-buried into the modern sedimentary layer that >it is found in today. Thanks for more clarification. This is easy to visualize though I still wonder about how those flat tops happened to extend upward. It looks like the peaks formed from minerals dripping down through these flat tops and precipitating like a stalactite (Is that the one that hangs?) would in a cave... but somehow the precipitating mineral (limestone) forced the surrounding clay outward rather than enveloping it or reacting with it to form a variety of compound stone elements. >The clay which both types of stone are found in, is harder on the Furuya >stones. Much of the Ligurian clay that I have observed is quite soft. I >personally feel that all the clay should be removed, otherwise the cleaning >process almost becomes a shaping I.e. selectively leaving elements of a >softer material to enhance the image. But, of course, this is an individual >choice of the collector. I haven't a wide experience with Ligurian clay, but I have found some to be very soft. Other clay attached to Ligurian limestone is incredibly hard... though not quite so hard as the limestone. Where the clay is not only white or grey-white, but also includes some veining of a British tan (light reddish yellow), even full strength acid doesn't faze it. A steel wheel will only grind down a sharp edge of this clay with considerable repeated effort. Left on the stone, the clay has the sharp edges of Cubist artifact (unlike any clay I've seen on pictured Furuyaishi stones). On the one stone I have that has limited areas with this incredibly hard clay (a Mountain Goat object stone), the hard clay was on the flat top of the stone, which is now the stone's base. The stone is a remarkable two colors-- mule's blood red (sort of a murky rust-tone of much blue and little yellow hue) at the head and shoulders and grey in the midsection. I had intended to completely clean the clay, but it was just too hard. The clay remains attached to the feet of two descending legs as well as to the bottom of the beast's arching underbelly. I think Ligurian limestone (and its clay) in both color and hardness has variety. There are several Chinese Scholars' Rocks in the Rosenblum book that look like Ligurian and Furuyaishi stone in their predominantly pigeon-colored limestone with calcite veining composition. None have clay purposively left attached. Perhaps their clay was removed easily or perhaps the aesthetic was just different. You might say the Chinese were more true than the Japanese to exposing the actual stone by not leaving a clay ring at the base. There is a switch on "pristineness" of stone aesthetics! >One of the most interesting aspects of this topic for >me is that sites as far apart as Liguria and Furuya >have very similar sedimentary deposits containing >these wonderful suiseki. I believe these sites cannot >be 'unique'... If new sites aren't found, the rarity of stones from sites now forbidden to collectors (e.g., Neodani Chrysanthemum stones and CA Murphy's stone) will multiply their appeal. When this happened in China's ancient premiere collecting sites, stones of secondary value were "mined" and even imported, then given attribution as from the area of prime collecting. Hope this doesn't happen, again. I'll beware of Furuyaishi from Brighton, Joe... :-) Best wishes, Chris... C. Cochrane, mailto:sashai@erols.com, Richmond VA USA ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 10:34:53 PST Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca From: "Chris Cochrane" Reply-To: "Chris Cochrane" To: Subject: Displaying stones Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 13:23:01 -0500 Message-ID: <01bd5688$b65c86a0$c93daccf@sashai.erols.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reviewing the _Kei Do_ videotapes recently, I was once again struck by how crucial the display of a stone is in bringing out its character. I am reminded of display when I see the well-designed dai that Joe Davies often creates for stones on his web page. Willi Benz wrote an article in Bonsai Magazine (1997, #6, p. 32f.) noted a dai should: 1. give stability to a stone, 2.give the stone a static front view and 3. enhance the suggestive power of a stone and underline its subject. To "enhance the suggestive power of a stone and underline its subject" is there not guidance to help us? Felix Rivera went a long way to offer guidance throughout his text. He summarizes in "Points of Evaluation (pp.. 144-45)" that apply to a Mountain stone presented in dai or suiban: - the front of the stone must be obvious an unequivocal (show best attributes, especially shapes and textures); -the summits must be strong enough to help you imagine them pointing all the way up into the sky; -in the central portion of the suiseki, summits predominate to the left or right, small peaks toward the rear; -the base of the mountain is ample, sloping gently, and it appears stable and in harmony with the rest of the mountain; -the peaks are not all at the same level; -the front (_mitsuke_) tilts slightly toward the viewer; -textures are varied and add depth; -colors are appropriate for the stone; -the ratio of the thickness of the base of the stone to the top portion is between 33 and 38%. Felix's criteria great and even suggest an order for prioritizing what may be competing objectives. The first objective is particularly important and a subset of guidelines might include: 1. determine the focal point a) if the whole is greater than the parts (e.g., resemblance to recognized Mt or to natural object) extend that side to front b) if the parts are greater than the whole (e.g. waterfall, hanging cliff, waterpool, cirque) extend that side toward front 2. slope of front face a) if Japanese aesthetic, extend gentler slope towards viewer unless displaying a waterfall or coastal rock stone (Is this right? I'm not sure...)-- this must be reconciled with Felix's recommendation above to tip the peak toward the viewer b) if Chinese aesthetic, extend steep (even overhanging face) toward viewer. 3. contour of base a) if two wings extend from the center in an open "V" shape, think of the wings as welcoming open arms and extend them toward the viewer b) if contour on one side is more varied, extend that towards the viewer, especially if the projections lead to adding an odd number of feet to the front side of the dai 4. high texture/intense color -extend parts of stone with high texture or dense color to the front so that atmospheric effect of distance is heightened (repeats suggestion of Felix stated above) 5. display plateau stone so that subsequent plateaus and peaks rise behind the major (preferably lowest) plain 6. avoid stones with obviously broken or cut sides and face question- able scars away from the viewer. After the deciding the front of the stone, deciding the right/left & forward/back angle for presenting a mountain stone is critical. 1. the profile of a mountain peaks and should have different angles on each side (also from front to back). The eye will naturally travel from the dense mass of stone on the side of the mountain with the most acute profile down the gentler slope and into space beyond that slope. If the gentler slope is very gentle, a larger suiban will allow space necessary to slow eye-speed before confrontation with the edge of the suiban. Of course, many mountain stones stones don't fit this profile at all-- e.g. mesa or butte stones, coastal rock stones. Other stones fit the general profile only in appling the concept of eye-speed-- e.g. plateau stones. 3. display waterfalls, avalanche scars et al. so that they indicate naturally vertical or cascading paths 4. display water pools, snow caps, tree lines (is there a better term for horizontal lines of changing vegetation such as the distinction between Douglas fir & ponderosa pine elevations?) et al. so that they indicate naturally horizontal orientations 5. displaying waterfalls -when the source flows from the profiled edge of a peak, the boulder at the head of the waterfall nearest the mountain's stronger (more acute) profile should be higher to enhance the visual flow noted in point #1 above. Another interesting display technique involves waterpool stones. With a dark stone, consider adding a white colorant (a drop of milk in water works, but not enough milk to increase the viscosity of water) to make the pool stand-out. I think I saw this in Willi Benz book first. It is wonderfully effective to show a mountain lake that might otherwise be missed or difficult to see. It also enhances the contour of a lake which carries evocative symbolism such as the "double gourd," which can sometimes be achieved by overfilling 2 adjacent waterpool depressions. Other waterpools are best filled with clear water, especially where the pool is already obvious or where adequate depth is perceived and enhanced by water's translucence. Hope others will correct and/or add to this list. BTW, these are not binding principles. Every stone has its own beauty that is open to conjecture and interpretation that can break all guidance and still make us smile... but having a few options to consider will not lessen our ability to make decisions with greater insight as to why we choose as we do. I'm one of the folks on the bonsai mail list to adamantly support judging. It is not the pejorative accepting or rejecting that I like about judging, but its summative value in teaching that "good, better, best" are realistic alternatives that we can train ourselves to better appreciate. At a recent Warren Hill presentation, Dave Garvin noted that at japan's Kofuku-Ten exhibit, trees are whisked by judges and artistic merit is determined almost instantaneously. Warren quipped that those judges haven't time to conciously decide on bar branches or other mincing guidelines, but those guidelines affect the vision of every judge. In context, Warren noted that over 50% of the trees' value is assessed on artistic impact, which is freely expressed and often breaks the rules. Ichiu Katayama's _Kei Do_ videos are almost notorious in breaking the rules he has written elsewhere and expresses in the tapes, yet the rules are still obvious. His decisions in breaking them express true artistry. A fellow in my bonsai club repeatedly tells me how my breaking rules expresses true ignorance. I can smile at his expertise... :-) Chris... C. Cochrane, mailto:sashai@erols.com, Richmond VA USA ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 11:38:24 PST Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 11:38:16 -0800 (PST) From: Lynn boyd Reply-To: Lynn boyd To: viewing_stones@triumf.ca Subject: Re: Displaying stones Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Chris, I enjoyed, gave much thought to your post re display. Thankyou for the time and effort involved in it. Lynn ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 16:10:58 PST Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca Reply-To: From: "Joe Davies" To: "Chris Cochrane" , Subject: Re: Ligurian stones and Furuya-ishi Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 00:03:16 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: Chris writes regarding my post...... > You write, > >Ligurian and Furuya stones are very similar:- both have > >a similar mineral composition, both have been formed in > >similar geological times and processes, both come in a > >variety of sizes, shapes and styles. The biggest difference > >is that Furuya material is harder and denser, and tends to > >have more textural/structural detailing, possibly a resultant > >of it being harder. > > On being harder, Joe, can you distinguish between these stones based on what > scratches them? Yeah, diamond scratches them both, moreso on Furuya - this really bugs the collectors of stones who one selects for the scratch test Among Ligurian limestone to which I was introduced, most > are not scratched or chipped (except that the tiniest pinnacles can break) Furuya is harder, like Ostrich eggs are harder than chickens. One of our groups geologists will, I am sure, be able to apply a little Mohs here, but at a guesstimate I would say Furuya is about 0.5 a Moh harder. > by a strongly applied rotating steel brush which is used to remove clay. On > one stone, however, I noted that a deep, black finish which was exposed > after a mild (20% solution Muriatic acid bath) turned to a very deep > silver-olive color after high-speed steel brushing. A chemist I aint, nor a geologist, but I would guess that it to do with the Hcl of the Muriatic reducing the outer layer of the limestone of the Ligurian and chemically altering it into another compound. It looks like > the peaks formed from minerals dripping down through these flat tops and > precipitating like a stalactite (Is that the one that hangs?) As a schoolboy I was taught that when the "tites come down the mites go up", trouble is, that particular mnemonic is rather sexist and you have to be English to fully appreciatte it! But yes, stalactities hang downwards. would in a > cave... but somehow the precipitating mineral (limestone) forced the > surrounding clay outward rather than enveloping it or reacting with it to > form a variety of compound stone elements. No sir, I feel this is entirely wrong, I doubt that this variety of limestone in the Lig and Fur stones was formed by precipitation. > I haven't a wide experience with Ligurian clay, but I have found some to be > very soft. Other clay attached to Ligurian limestone is incredibly hard... > though not quite so hard as the limestone. The longer the clay has been exposed to weathering the more it will tend to harden > I think Ligurian limestone (and its clay) in both color and hardness has > variety. Yes, depending on the river flows into the estuary at the time of deposition of the Lig stones > If new sites aren't found, the rarity of stones from sites now forbidden to > collectors (e.g., Neodani Chrysanthemum stones and CA Murphy's stone) will > multiply their appeal. When this happened in China's ancient premiere > collecting sites, stones of secondary > value were "mined" and even imported, then given attribution as from the > area of prime collecting. Hope this doesn't happen, again. I'll beware of > Furuyaishi from Brighton, Joe... :-) Some chap once wrote a tome called "Brighton Rock" - perhaps he was an aspiring suiseki collector (vendor ?!) Joe ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 18:37:53 PST Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca From: "Garry Garcia" Reply-To: "Garry Garcia" To: Subject: Re: link on cleaning Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 20:37:29 -0600 Message-ID: <01bd56cd$ca14ff20$8f5f47cc@ggarcia.vvm.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi enthusiast, Just found an interesting page on various ways to clean, stones. Mainly he speaks of crystal, etc. but I have seen a few of these methods on the list at various times. Take a look: www.rockhounds.com/rockshop/clean1.html Garry Garcia ggarcia@vvm.com ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 14:30:17 PST Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 14:27:00 -0800 From: "Milam, Mary" Reply-To: "Milam, Mary" Subject: murphey To: viewing_stones@triumf.ca I have a question about the Murphey's site. I am particularly taken by the bridge like Murphy stone of Felix Riviera, what is the classification of a Murphy, are those protuberances atop of the Murphy Bridge placed there or part of the structure? Are there other collecting spots with similar stones? Also, does anyone have any favorite sites in Eastern Washington or Oregon? And finally, any notes on good collecting spots in Belize? thanks for your time. mary