Archive-Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1998 09:31:33 PST
Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca
From: "Chris Cochrane" 
Reply-To: "Chris Cochrane" 
To: "Eckart Christian Ublagger" , 
CC: 
Subject: Re: rocks from the desert
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1998 12:25:10 -0400
Message-ID: <01bdf5fc$e2053e00$d83eaccf@sashai.erols.com>
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On September 1, Eckart Christian Ublagger introduced his "rocks from the
desert" to the mail list at
http://personales.mundivia.es/personales/eckart/arabia.html
and http://personales.mundivia.es/personales/eckart/sahara1.html

Eckart wrote,
>I understand that members of this list are mainly interested
>in "distant mountain view" rocks. Still I would like to share
>images of some of my desert rocks with rock enthusiasts.
>They are much smaller (between finger size and fist size)
>than viewing stones, and they look quite different.
>Yet, to me they are incredibly fascinating and I shall be glad
>to hear opinions about them.

Well, Eckart, we are interested in distant mountain view rocks among others
and you display excellent examples of a wide variety of stones typically
classified as suiseki.  To speed the answer, English terms for Japanese
classifications among your stones include objects such as animals, birds,
shelters, and rustic huts in form.  In pattern, your stones aren't far from
Japanese button-pattern and crab-pattern stones-- in one case the pattern
looks like warts on a toad, which is especially evocative.  Numerous stones
that you display look like mountain peaks and peaks with streams, ice
glaciers and avalanches.

You have a some stones that more clearly relate to Chinese scholar rocks
than to the Japanese suiseki aesthetic.  These stones include bridge-arch
stones, vertically displayed stones (best displayed with there heaviest end
raised skyward), and deeply pock-marked stones (which could be either in the
Japanese or Chinese aesthetic depending on detail).  The Japanese have a
suiseki classification to include classical Chinese stones.

They are not smaller than classical suiseki.  Larry Ragle (California) and
Norry Kirschten (Luxemburg) have each published that early suiseki used in
tea ceremony were quite small-- easily held in one hand.  Visiting suiseki
collectors and vendors in Japan recently, I found more venerated stones in
presentation boxes at one-hand sizes than in larger sizes.  They weren't
denigrated for being small... in fact, one vendor had entirely small suiseki
in presentation boxes and every one he priced for me was Y120,000 or
approximately $1000.00 US at the present exchange rate.

>Please drop me a line if you can appreciate these stone
>objects and particularly if you can put them into a category!


Since no private posts followed your post, I can only hope you received
private posts. Any suiseki enthusiasts who doesn't visit your web pages is
missing a treat.

I hope you'll visit Craig Hunt's viewing stone web site
 that will
direct you to other sites that are informative about displaying stones.
Accept for the display (on a daiza-- wood stand-- or on a suiban/doban-- a
stoneware or bronze tray), you already have a great collection.  Please ask
Craig t add your site to his list of collectors pages.

Best wishes,
Chris... C. Cochrane, mailto:sashai@erols.com, Richmond VA USA
>
>
>Eckart Christian Ublagger
>Barcelona
>

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1998 17:12:49 PST
Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca
From: ManFont@aol.com
Reply-To: ManFont@aol.com
Message-ID: <77455fac.36229aeb@aol.com>
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1998 20:12:27 EDT
To: viewing_stones@triumf.ca
MIME-Version: 1.0
Subject: Re: rocks from the desert
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
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Speaking of desert stones...

Our Bonsai Club's yearly auction took place this Sat. (Broward County,
Florida) and several viewing stones from the Mojave Desert, California where
offered. These are similar to those shown in plate 10 of Felix Riviera's fine
book on Suiseki The Art of Miniature landscape Stones. I bid for two of them
at got them. These are chalcedony and the nicest of the two has a columnar
shape (7 inches high - 18 cm) & (width variable +/- 2 1/2 inches - 6 cm).

The second one is more squat and appears more like a near mountain stone. BTW,
can I place this stone in a manner not consistent with its formation. In other
words this stone would be on its side with the mineral inclusions that jut out
of the main mass forming vertical ridges? Is this unconventional and frowned
upon? Aesthetically it is more interesting and powerful in this position. I
don't think I have encountered any reading material that speaks of this
concern.

The other will be displayed in its columnar form with the inclusions
horizontal to the base plan. Both have fairly flat bottoms (naturally).

Your thoughts on this matter would be appreciated. Thanks in advance.


<<  On September 1, Eckart Christian Ublagger introduced his "rocks from the
desert" to the mail list at
http://personales.mundivia.es/personales/eckart/arabia.html
and http://personales.mundivia.es/personales/eckart/sahara1.html  >>

P.S.   Eckart, I enjoyed your stones very much. 

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1998 18:22:53 PST
Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1998 18:22:47 -0700 (PDT)
From: Lynn Boyd 
Reply-To: Lynn Boyd 
To: viewing_stones@triumf.ca
Subject: Re: rocks from the desert
Message-ID: 
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 On Mon, 12 Oct 1998 ManFont@aol.com wrote:

> Speaking of desert stones...
> 

> The second one is more squat and appears more like a near mountain stone. BTW,
> can I place this stone in a manner not consistent with its formation. In other
> words this stone would be on its side with the mineral inclusions that jut out
> of the main mass forming vertical ridges? Is this unconventional and frowned
> upon? Aesthetically it is more interesting and powerful in this position. I
> don't think I have encountered any reading material that speaks of this
> concern.

      Luis,
        
            I am curious if the stone when positioned as you describe
        resembles any natural formation, or does it just appear design-
        wise to be intriguing?  And, would it tempt a viewer to want to
        tip it to the mountain-like position? - a subtle point.

            Someone will answer your question knowledgeably, but I
        know our arts backgrounds can entice us into abstract displays
        that step outside the conventions of some traditional arts.
        I have lately tried harder to first become familiar with the
        Japanese suiseki categories, or defining orders,  as a way to
        understand the provenance of the art.  I am gaining some under-
        standing by doing so, I think.  It is so strongly an art of form
        and without the equally strong components of color and tactile
        sense I am beginning to see form in a new relationship to the
        spirit of art.  Difficult to explain, but you will understand,
        or you would not ask that question, I think.

           Congratulations on your purchase.  
           I head for a rock trip this coming weekend where I am assurred
        puddle rocks abound - if only it is true! . . . :)             

           Lynn

                   lynn@user1.cyberis.net
                   Oregon, USA












> 
> The other will be displayed in its columnar form with the inclusions
> horizontal to the base plan. Both have fairly flat bottoms (naturally).
> 
> Your thoughts on this matter would be appreciated. Thanks in advance.
> 
> 
> <<  On September 1, Eckart Christian Ublagger introduced his "rocks from the
> desert" to the mail list at
> http://personales.mundivia.es/personales/eckart/arabia.html
> and http://personales.mundivia.es/personales/eckart/sahara1.html  >>
> 
> P.S.   Eckart, I enjoyed your stones very much. 
> 
> 


================================================================================
Archive-Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1998 06:35:26 PST
Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca
From: ManFont@aol.com
Reply-To: ManFont@aol.com
Message-ID: <5f5c240d.36235705@aol.com>
Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1998 09:35:01 EDT
To: viewing_stones@triumf.ca
MIME-Version: 1.0
Subject: Re: rocks from the desert
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Lynn Boyd in a message dated 10/12/98 10:53:02 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
lynn@user1.cyberis.net writes:

<<  Luis,
         
             I am curious if the stone when positioned as you describe
         resembles any natural formation, or does it just appear design-
         wise to be intriguing?  And, would it tempt a viewer to want to
         tip it to the mountain-like position? - a subtle point.>>

It actually becomes the more convincing near mountain viewing stone when the
mineral inclusions are on the vertical relative to the ground plane. 
 
            << Someone will answer your question knowledgeably, but I
         know our arts backgrounds can entice us into abstract displays
         that step outside the conventions of some traditional arts.
         I have lately tried harder to first become familiar with the
         Japanese suiseki categories, or defining orders,  as a way to
         understand the provenance of the art.  I am gaining some under-
         standing by doing so, I think.  It is so strongly an art of form
         and without the equally strong components of color and tactile
         sense I am beginning to see form in a new relationship to the
         spirit of art.  Difficult to explain, but you will understand,
         or you would not ask that question, I think.>>

Yes, I understand. 
Riviera includes the classification of Abstract Suiseki (Chusho-seki). I
assume that stepping outside the conventions of known and categorized forms is
not necessarily frowned upon. Joe Davies' 'Thunder Dragon' (plate 11) is a
wonderful and powerful example of the Abstract Suiseki. I am drawn to this
image more strongly than any other in the book.
 
            <>

Thanks, and I hope you are successful! 

Luis Fontanills
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1998 08:14:59 PST
Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca
Message-ID: <000001bdf785$eca095a0$c1daabc3@joe>
From: Joe Davies 
Reply-To: Joe Davies 
To: ManFont , viewing_stones 
Subject: Re: rocks from the desert
Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1998 10:47:14 +0100
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

Luis writes....

>Riviera includes the classification of Abstract Suiseki (Chusho-seki). I
>assume that stepping outside the conventions of known and categorized forms
is
>not necessarily frowned upon. Joe Davies' 'Thunder Dragon' (plate 11) is a
>wonderful and powerful example of the Abstract Suiseki. I am drawn to this
>image more strongly than any other in the book.

Next Month to celebrate the launch of my new website - devoted to Suiseki, I
am going to offer 'Thunder Dragon' for sale. I will announce details of the
new website to the group once it is complete.

Rgds

Joe

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1998 12:03:33 PST
Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca
Message-ID: <199810141902.VAA23613@mailer.inrete.it>
Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1998 20:57:55 +0200
To: Joe Davies 
From: marco favero 
Reply-To: marco favero 
Subject: Re: rocks from the desert
CC: viewing_stones@triumf.ca
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Joe and Folks ,
i come back last Saturday from the A.I.A.S.(Italian Suiseki Lovers)  show in
Castelfranco Emilia where i had the great privilege and honor to assist to a
masterly lecture of Suiseki by Felix Rivera; He is a very nice and kind person
and all the people there has been  enlightened by his competence and
cleverness.
Like Joe,i'm building a new web site devoted to Italian suiseki and you will
see next month  also the pics of this event.
Regards,

marco
****************************************************************************
****************************
>Next Month to celebrate the launch of my new website - devoted to Suiseki, I
>am going to offer 'Thunder Dragon' for sale. I will announce details of the
>new website to the group once it is complete.
>
>Rgds
>
>Joe
>  
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Wed, 28 Oct 1998 11:52:52 PST
Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca
From: "Chris Cochrane" 
Reply-To: "Chris Cochrane" 
To: 
Subject: Teaser (including air fare!)
Date: Wed, 28 Oct 1998 14:50:52 -0500
Message-ID: <01be02ac$6515a3a0$de3eaccf@sashai.erols.com>
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Today I visited a Japanese translator who is assisting me with importing
books recently found in Japan.  I expected to get some info on business
etiquette (and I really got great info'), but regarding the books, all I
expected was to get several titlkes translated for identification purposes.

To my surprise, THIS translator immediately started sharing snippets of the
texts of these books (mostly color catalogs) that reinforce that there is
MUCH to learn about suiseki aesthetics that Western enthusiasts are not
addressing.

Among some of the snippets, I noted:
-- a suiseki in the Tokugawa family collection that was a favorite of Shogun
Yoshinobu is named _Surugamine_-- it suggests the stream of the mountain in
Suruga from where the Tokugawa family originally arose... and "mine"
translates "where the point of the mountain continues."  The title is as
evokative as the fabulous famous stone.

-- a suiseki named _Akatsuki_, which could be translated as "dawn" but is
more appropriately understood from its Chinese characters to mean "when
sound rises and sky turns red."   The red tinge on this brown stone bespeaks
dawning; but without translation of the title, that link could be missed.

-- a suiseki named _Stori Obishi_-- "a light kimono that requires modest
belting"-- was noted as the favorite suiseki owned by Kyoto's old governor
(probably noted for his own modest demeanor).

-- a suiseki named _Takegami-en_-- literally "place on a mountain + 'smoke &
rain'."  This stone came from the backside of Japan (northwest shore of main
island) which is known for its dark weather, agricultural economy and severe
environment.

-- a suiseki named _Banshu_-- "late Fall"-- characterized by its dark brown
color as opposed to the vibrant colors of early Fall.

Interestingly, one title and interior text helped elucidate Japanese terms
for various suiseki accessories.  The book spoke of _suiseki_ (stones) and
_yougu_ (stands and suiban).  If a legged-stand has no special qualities, it
is known as _tsukue_, but once a stand is named (e.g., a black and bamboo
stand titled "Crow and Bamboo"), its title changes to the more exalted
_taku_.

There is no such thing as _dai_ to hold Japanese stones.  The term always
appropriate is _daiza_ for a fitted stand as I learned in speaking with a
variety of Japanese collectors and as is verified in suiseki texts'
references.

BTW, many suiban are named, as well!

For anyone contemplating a trip to Japan, NOW would be a GREAT opportunity.
Continental Airlines has just opened an inaugural flight special to Tokyo of
$777 with a companion fare of $77.70 (Yes, $77.70!) from departures of 11/30
to 12/15 only.  Flights orinate from  NYC/ ABE / ALB / BDL / BGR / BOS / BTV
/ BUF / MHT / MVY / PHL / PVD / PWM / ROC / SYR / ATL / BNA CLT / FLL / GSO
/ GSP / JAX / ORF / MCO / PBI / RDU / RIC / RSW / SDF / TPA / SAV / CHI /
CMH / CLE / CVG / DTW / ERI / FNT / IND / MKE / MSP/ TOL/ WAS / PIT.
Stopover in EWR is allowed one-way.  You can contact my translator Take
Yoshitake for details , and he can even arrange your
Japan Rail Pass (a great deal, but it must be issed here).

Hope someone bites the bait-- or better yet, invites me along... ;-)

Chris... C. Cochrane, mailto:sashai@erols.com, Richmond VA USA

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Thu, 29 Oct 1998 06:45:57 PST
Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca
From: "Chris Cochrane" 
Reply-To: "Chris Cochrane" 
To: 
Subject: Re: Teaser continued re' Japanese suiseki literature, suiseki, aesthetics and display
Date: Thu, 29 Oct 1998 09:45:00 -0500
Message-ID: <01be034a$b4af4080$bd3eaccf@sashai.erols.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

When I've found suiseki catalogs/books in Japanese that have primarily been
photographs with an occasional a few lines of characters,  I assumed they
gave minimum information about the stones.  As a translator related snippets
yesterday of a catalog/text entitled "Invitation to the Beauty of Suiseki
(Guidebook for a New Learner),"  I realized the enthusiast in Japan is
treated to a wealth of information about stone formations and the history of
suiseki collecting.

For example, one stone pictured was of a "kurama" variety and the text went
on to say where this stone is usually found, when it no longer was collected
from its original source area (Could it have been depleted by collecting?),
where it has been found by collectors since, the physical qualities that
distinguish examples of the stone and a comment on the geologic history of
these stones.

If the Japanese aren't impressed by the mostly shallow knowledge of stones
and the extremely brief history of Western _suiseki_ collecting, it could be
because the rawest neophyte can read books such as this and know more about
suiseki-- its art and its form-- and about stones that conform to the art
than the most sincere student in the West.  Of course, the Japanese are MUCH
too gracious to point that out, but they also seem content to publish only
in Japanese and must wonder why Westerners are content to know so little.

In visiting suiseki enthusiasts and vendors, I found the Japanese collect
and vend a wide variety of stones beyond what we  normally classify as
suiseki.  Unexpected stones are also found in suiseki catalogs of Japan's
most famous stones-- occasionally stones of such little obvious merit that
you wonder why you can't fathom it.  If I could read the text, the stones
only a mother could love were probably taken from a battlefield by a
shogun-- and with a little prodding I'd be looking for a crab rather than a
mountain view.

In any case, vendors in Japan are clearly selling stones at different
levels.  Among those who were primarily suiseki vendors (the exception
rather than the rule), one fellow offered me a piece of bog iron!  This same
fellow also sold mostly stones that had been cut and after we talked for a
while, I found I could ask about questionable stones and get totally honest
answers about outrageous (to my mind) intervention.

For example, I am familiar with Ligurian stones that appear structured
similar to Japanese Furuya-ishi & other limestone deposits.  In Japan's
limestone, however, my impression is that the limestone "bleeds" into the
surrounding clay on the flat side of the stone, so that a clear demarcation
between the two is not so clear as in the Italian.  This vendor had Japanese
stones with clear demarcation, and I asked if this clay was natural.  The
vendor replied that the clay bottom had been baked-on, then a daiza had been
crafted to hold the clay!

This same vendor had some polished stones that really GRABBED me--
magnificent, but too big (and pricey) for this trip.

I've seen stones from two Western collectors who have purchased from this
vendor, and I wonder if they were as torn as I was at the fast & loose
aesthetic, but absolutely honest dealings, of this vendor (if you knew what
questions to ask).  He seldom offered comment except when specifically
asked.  Of course, viewing stones quietly is the best way to perceive their
merit, and I appreciated his forbearance.

A second collector/vendor was a gentleman of advanced age.  It took police
intervention to find his home, but the graciousness of folks I met on the
street got me there.  It was HEAVEN in a room.  This man had suiseki and
biseki of the HIGHEST merit displayed casually about his living room and had
numerous presentation boxes with stones not yet displayed in the room.  I
later found he had a garage/warehouse also filled with collected stones.

DUMB, DUMB me... he spoke NO English and my little Japanese was pitiful in
useful communication.  He talked and talked but I could not understand as my
bugged eyes wandered the room.  Occasionally we would nod and I could see
how much he wanted me to understand how sincerely his life was enriched by
his hobby.

He brought out an large album, ostensibly filled with articles he had saved
over the years on suiseki-- perhaps all on his own suiseki.  Thumbing the
album, he showed me a photo of him and of a suiseki sitting nearby; but the
photo was of a younger man and the newspaper was dated 1940!

This man had NO cut suiseki-- at least he absolutely insisted that every
stone was uncut that he displayed, and no stone he offered for sale was cut.
The stones he offered for sale were unusual, however-- most I would have
questioned as being suiseki before this trip.  There is NO question that
this fellow was absolutely sincere.  He shared tea with me, which seems a
common business practice, insisted that I accept two exhibit catalogs as a
gift and directed me to other vendors.

I'm still not sure the price he was offering stones as communication was
very difficult & business does not proceed directly as you establish a
relationship with your host in this venue before buying and selling.  He
occasionally raised a number of fingers, to which I mentally added 4 zeros--
e.g., six fingers equals Y 60,000 (at Y 120/$ = US $500). Perhaps I was only
expected to add 3 zeros (but adding 4 seems the common shortcut).

PLEASE find yourself an interpreter if you VISIT a suiseki collector that
may not speak English.  This man was wondrous, yet I can only share my
translated thanks in detail by mail... :-(...   Imagine the conversation
that I missed... :-((((

I could go on and on about stones tucked-away in little shops... about
carved stones from Japanese country areas that are presented and sold by
suiseki vendors, but are not suiseki.  About the marvelous stones,
especially biseki, found at a temple fair as the day dawned.  About
collecting stones on and
near the Katsuura River two hours in the country from Kyoto.

I should note, because he is often quoted to defend as well as to attack the
practice of cutting stones, that Arishige Matsuura displays no stones of
natural contour with a cut bottom in his Collection.  I think he was very
surprised that I kept asking that question regarding stones that seemed
unnaturally flat.   There is no question that he wants only uncut stones and
has a marvelous collection of Japanese suiseki.  I did not see stones from
his friends elsewhere displayed, and once again it remained an unasked
question because of our language barrier.

....

Hope this might stir the list as some of my best friends here insist it
profits little to "understand" stones, just "experience" them.  That doesn't
satisfy me though I recognize the drift toward a Zen approach.

An instructor of the Intensive Garden Seminar I attended in Kyoto
convincingly dispelled the value of over-emphasizing Zen over other
aesthetics, and it will certainly affect my relation to _suiseki_ & _bonsai_
appreciation.  This emphasis actually arose as part of the Japanese peace
movement in this mid-century (with published proponents including Lorraine
Kuck, D.T. Suzuki & Kitaro Nishida)  and has been as much an apologetic to
dispel propaganda of the Japanese as fierce/barbaric as it has been a
sincere expression of Japanese thought.  There are rich and broad Japanese
approaches to aesthetics beyond the repeated WABI, SABI, SHIBUI, YUGEN
mantra with which hobbiest continue grappling.

In that vein, it was interesting to hear Japanese responses to KEIDO, which
has become an increasing popular form of display aesthetics thanks to bonsai
journals (at least in the USA).  I love KEIDO-- the display in a tokonoma of
a hanging scroll, a principle art object (often a bonsai or suiseki) and a
companion object.  The founder of the KEIDO school Ichiu Katayama certainly
produced a lyric video on the subject.

In Japan, I found numerous displays in the KEIDO form, but repeatedly I was
told this is "Japanese form," not a special school's or master's form.
Arishige Matsuura (president of Nippon Suiseki Association) and Takagi
Bonsai Museum in Tokyo both offer displays to guests in their tokonoma that
are consistent with KEIDO, yet Matsuura and Takagi hosts/hostesses insist
the display is simply Japanese form.

Hope this will encourage others to pursue suiseki enthusiasms if visiting
Japan.

Chris... C. Cochrane, mailto:sashai@erols.com, Richmond VA USA


================================================================================
Archive-Date: Thu, 29 Oct 1998 09:11:41 PST
Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca
Message-ID: <9810299096.AA909681081@okway.okstate.edu>
Date: Thu, 29 Oct 1998 11:11:12 -0600
From: "Tom LaBron" 
Reply-To: "Tom LaBron" 
To: , 
Subject: Re[2]: Teaser continued re' Japanese suiseki literature, sui
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

     Chris,
     
        Didn't you have a pencil and paper?  In my dealings over numerous 
     cups of tea and the purchase of an item, whether it be a Japanese 
     individual or Chinese Individual, it has always been appropriate, if 
     done with tact and a humble attitude, to express a desire to see the 
     amount in question written down.  I remember, one time I am glad I did 
     this since, like you, I assumed a certain number of zeros for an 
     antique bonsai tray and it turned out that there were more zeros in 
     the price than I even wanted to contemplate.  I have never been 
     snubbed in China or Japan, for ultimately wanting to see the price. 
     They understand all to well the need for writing down import 
     transactions.
     
        I am only recently interested in collecting Suiseki, although I 
     have admired for years when I was in the Far East, so most of my 
     dealings have been over antique or unique Bonsai trays.  One time I 
     found a gentleman's shop that sold hand carved from granite bonsai 
     trays.  I had learned enough Cantonese to get by, by myself shopping 
     and getting items that I wanted.  I entered this man's shop and to my 
     surprise he spoke only Mandarin.  He could kind of understand me, but 
     I had no idea what he was saying, nothing clicked.  Well, thank God I 
     am good with my hands for I was able to get across that I wanted to 
     buy some of his wares and I looked and chose 9 pieces, which included 
     a small handcraved Buddha.  Over numerous cups of green tea and 
     jasmine tea I spent a total of about one and half hours, to choose and 
     bargain over the price of these nine items.  It was great time and we 
     passed a paper between us bargaining over the price I was to pay for 
     these items.
     
        One thing that did seem to matter, at least it did years ago, was 
     that paper and pencil was preferred to paper and pen.  Over the years 
     this may have changed.  There were two times I pulled out a paper and 
     pen and after the first exchange the pen was handed back to me and a 
     pencil was offered as a substitute.   After that, I carried only 
     pencil and paper.  I never knew what the significance of this was, but 
     it always seemed to makes things smoother and easier.  A more modern 
     Chinese or Japanese individual may not do this, but elderly ones still 
     seem to appreciate the pencil over the pen.
     
        This is just my take on bargaining or buying items in Japan or 
     China/Hong Kong.  Oh also, if the price was "set" or "firm" they 
     always seemed to let you know that it was useless to try and bargain.  
     Something else, and it is never be in a hurry, especially if being 
     shown a collection even if they are for sale.  And most important, 
     never turn down a gift.
     
        Oh well, I don't get to say to much of this listserv because of my 
     inexperience on the subject, so I just thought I would give this 
     observation on oriental buying and selling.
     
     Regards from Pawnee America.
     
     Tom La Bron
     LTA, Oklahoma State University
     Office:    norbal@okway.okstate.edu
     Home:      norbalt@juno.com
     Homepage:  http://www.geocities.com/Tokyo/Towers/6309
     
     ------------------------------------------------------------------
______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Re: Teaser continued re' Japanese suiseki literature, suisek
Author:  "Chris Cochrane"  at SMTP
Date:    10/29/98 9:45 AM


When I've found suiseki catalogs/books in Japanese that have primarily been 
photographs with an occasional a few lines of characters,  I assumed they 
gave minimum information about the stones.  As a translator related snippets 
yesterday of a catalog/text entitled "Invitation to the Beauty of Suiseki 
(Guidebook for a New Learner),"  I realized the enthusiast in Japan is 
treated to a wealth of information about stone formations and the history of 
suiseki collecting.
     
For example, one stone pictured was of a "kurama" variety and the text went 
on to say where this stone is usually found, when it no longer was collected 
from its original source area (Could it have been depleted by collecting?), 
where it has been found by collectors since, the physical qualities that 
distinguish examples of the stone and a comment on the geologic history of 
these stones.
     
If the Japanese aren't impressed by the mostly shallow knowledge of stones 
and the extremely brief history of Western _suiseki_ collecting, it could be 
because the rawest neophyte can read books such as this and know more about 
suiseki-- its art and its form-- and about stones that conform to the art 
than the most sincere student in the West.  Of course, the Japanese are MUCH 
too gracious to point that out, but they also seem content to publish only 
in Japanese and must wonder why Westerners are content to know so little.
     
In visiting suiseki enthusiasts and vendors, I found the Japanese collect 
and vend a wide variety of stones beyond what we  normally classify as 
suiseki.  Unexpected stones are also found in suiseki catalogs of Japan's 
most famous stones-- occasionally stones of such little obvious merit that 
you wonder why you can't fathom it.  If I could read the text, the stones 
only a mother could love were probably taken from a battlefield by a 
shogun-- and with a little prodding I'd be looking for a crab rather than a 
mountain view.
     
In any case, vendors in Japan are clearly selling stones at different 
levels.  Among those who were primarily suiseki vendors (the exception 
rather than the rule), one fellow offered me a piece of bog iron!  This same 
fellow also sold mostly stones that had been cut and after we talked for a 
while, I found I could ask about questionable stones and get totally honest 
answers about outrageous (to my mind) intervention.
     
For example, I am familiar with Ligurian stones that appear structured 
similar to Japanese Furuya-ishi & other limestone deposits.  In Japan's 
limestone, however, my impression is that the limestone "bleeds" into the 
surrounding clay on the flat side of the stone, so that a clear demarcation 
between the two is not so clear as in the Italian.  This vendor had Japanese 
stones with clear demarcation, and I asked if this clay was natural.  The 
vendor replied that the clay bottom had been baked-on, then a daiza had been 
crafted to hold the clay!
     
This same vendor had some polished stones that really GRABBED me-- 
magnificent, but too big (and pricey) for this trip.
     
I've seen stones from two Western collectors who have purchased from this 
vendor, and I wonder if they were as torn as I was at the fast & loose 
aesthetic, but absolutely honest dealings, of this vendor (if you knew what 
questions to ask).  He seldom offered comment except when specifically asked. 
 Of course, viewing stones quietly is the best way to perceive their merit, 
and I appreciated his forbearance.
     
A second collector/vendor was a gentleman of advanced age.  It took police 
intervention to find his home, but the graciousness of folks I met on the 
street got me there.  It was HEAVEN in a room.  This man had suiseki and 
biseki of the HIGHEST merit displayed casually about his living room and had 
numerous presentation boxes with stones not yet displayed in the room.  I 
later found he had a garage/warehouse also filled with collected stones.
     
DUMB, DUMB me... he spoke NO English and my little Japanese was pitiful in 
useful communication.  He talked and talked but I could not understand as my 
bugged eyes wandered the room.  Occasionally we would nod and I could see 
how much he wanted me to understand how sincerely his life was enriched by 
his hobby.
     
He brought out an large album, ostensibly filled with articles he had saved 
over the years on suiseki-- perhaps all on his own suiseki.  Thumbing the 
album, he showed me a photo of him and of a suiseki sitting nearby; but the 
photo was of a younger man and the newspaper was dated 1940!
     
This man had NO cut suiseki-- at least he absolutely insisted that every 
stone was uncut that he displayed, and no stone he offered for sale was cut. 
The stones he offered for sale were unusual, however-- most I would have 
questioned as being suiseki before this trip.  There is NO question that this 
fellow was absolutely sincere.  He shared tea with me, which seems a common 
business practice, insisted that I accept two exhibit catalogs as a gift and 
directed me to other vendors.
     
I'm still not sure the price he was offering stones as communication was 
very difficult & business does not proceed directly as you establish a 
relationship with your host in this venue before buying and selling.  He 
occasionally raised a number of fingers, to which I mentally added 4 zeros-- 
e.g., six fingers equals Y 60,000 (at Y 120/$ = US $500). Perhaps I was only 
expected to add 3 zeros (but adding 4 seems the common shortcut).
     
PLEASE find yourself an interpreter if you VISIT a suiseki collector that 
may not speak English.  This man was wondrous, yet I can only share my 
translated thanks in detail by mail... :-(...   Imagine the conversation 
that I missed... :-((((
     
I could go on and on about stones tucked-away in little shops... about 
carved stones from Japanese country areas that are presented and sold by 
suiseki vendors, but are not suiseki.  About the marvelous stones, 
especially biseki, found at a temple fair as the day dawned.  About 
collecting stones on and
near the Katsuura River two hours in the country from Kyoto.
     
I should note, because he is often quoted to defend as well as to attack the 
practice of cutting stones, that Arishige Matsuura displays no stones of 
natural contour with a cut bottom in his Collection.  I think he was very 
surprised that I kept asking that question regarding stones that seemed 
unnaturally flat.   There is no question that he wants only uncut stones and 
has a marvelous collection of Japanese suiseki.  I did not see stones from 
his friends elsewhere displayed, and once again it remained an unasked 
question because of our language barrier.
     
...
     
Hope this might stir the list as some of my best friends here insist it 
profits little to "understand" stones, just "experience" them.  That doesn't 
satisfy me though I recognize the drift toward a Zen approach.
     
An instructor of the Intensive Garden Seminar I attended in Kyoto 
convincingly dispelled the value of over-emphasizing Zen over other 
aesthetics, and it will certainly affect my relation to _suiseki_ & _bonsai_ 
appreciation.  This emphasis actually arose as part of the Japanese peace 
movement in this mid-century (with published proponents including Lorraine 
Kuck, D.T. Suzuki & Kitaro Nishida)  and has been as much an apologetic to 
dispel propaganda of the Japanese as fierce/barbaric as it has been a 
sincere expression of Japanese thought.  There are rich and broad Japanese 
approaches to aesthetics beyond the repeated WABI, SABI, SHIBUI, YUGEN 
mantra with which hobbiest continue grappling.
     
In that vein, it was interesting to hear Japanese responses to KEIDO, which 
has become an increasing popular form of display aesthetics thanks to bonsai 
journals (at least in the USA).  I love KEIDO-- the display in a tokonoma of 
a hanging scroll, a principle art object (often a bonsai or suiseki) and a 
companion object.  The founder of the KEIDO school Ichiu Katayama certainly 
produced a lyric video on the subject.
     
In Japan, I found numerous displays in the KEIDO form, but repeatedly I was 
told this is "Japanese form," not a special school's or master's form. 
Arishige Matsuura (president of Nippon Suiseki Association) and Takagi 
Bonsai Museum in Tokyo both offer displays to guests in their tokonoma that 
are consistent with KEIDO, yet Matsuura and Takagi hosts/hostesses insist 
the display is simply Japanese form.
     
Hope this will encourage others to pursue suiseki enthusiasms if visiting 
Japan.
     
Chris... C. Cochrane, mailto:sashai@erols.com, Richmond VA USA
     
     
     

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Thu, 29 Oct 1998 13:13:14 PST
Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca
From: "Chris Cochrane" 
Reply-To: "Chris Cochrane" 
To: "Tom LaBron" , 
Subject: Re: Re[2]: Teaser continued re' Japanese suiseki literature, sui
Date: Thu, 29 Oct 1998 16:11:56 -0500
Message-ID: <01be0380$c2c5e940$d93eaccf@sashai.erols.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Hi Tom.  You thoughtfully write,
> Didn't you have a pencil and paper?

Actually I did have a pen and paper, but the older gemtleman would only
raise his fingers or inscribe a single digit with one finger in the palm of
his hand.  I admit I was a little adamant at forcing a clearer
understanding, but he was sure that he stated all that was necessary and
that was that.  By pressing further, I was concerned he was thinking I was
attempting to haggle... which I absolutely did not wish to convey.

Thus I was confounded by my own desire to be seen as fit company and a
sincere buyer.  Guess I could have wrestled him to the floor and twisted a
limb until he came up with the number of zeros I desired... but I truly left
unsure because the prices seemed very dear.

> ... One time I  found a gentleman's shop that sold hand
> carved from granite bonsai trays.  I had learned enough
> Cantonese to get by, by myself shopping and getting
> items that I wanted.  I entered this man's shop and to my
> surprise he spoke only Mandarin.

I once studied tourist Mandarin before a Hong Kong visit... and only upon
arrival learned everyone in HK speaks Cantonese or Fukien dialects... ;-)

> He could kind of understand me, but I had no idea what
> he was saying, nothing clicked.  Well, thank God I am good
> with my hands for I was able to get across that I wanted to
> buy some of his wares

Arishige Matsuura speaks practically no English, but an afternoon of sharing
time with he and his gracious wife seems one full of communication.  I don't
really recall how... but at one point a translator he called at Japan Bonsai
Association (Ms. Denbrow) threw in the towel and said speaking between us
was too technical... :-)))

Thanks for your experiences Tom... next time I'll take a pencil AND a
translator.

Bestr wishes,
Chris

and I looked and chose 9 pieces, which included
>     a small handcraved Buddha.  Over numerous cups of green tea and
>     jasmine tea I spent a total of about one and half hours, to choose and
>     bargain over the price of these nine items.  It was great time and we
>     passed a paper between us bargaining over the price I was to pay for
>     these items.
>
>        One thing that did seem to matter, at least it did years ago, was
>     that paper and pencil was preferred to paper and pen.  Over the years
>     this may have changed.  There were two times I pulled out a paper and
>     pen and after the first exchange the pen was handed back to me and a
>     pencil was offered as a substitute.   After that, I carried only
>     pencil and paper.  I never knew what the significance of this was, but
>     it always seemed to makes things smoother and easier.  A more modern
>     Chinese or Japanese individual may not do this, but elderly ones still
>     seem to appreciate the pencil over the pen.
>
>        This is just my take on bargaining or buying items in Japan or
>     China/Hong Kong.  Oh also, if the price was "set" or "firm" they
>     always seemed to let you know that it was useless to try and bargain.
>     Something else, and it is never be in a hurry, especially if being
>     shown a collection even if they are for sale.  And most important,
>     never turn down a gift.
>
>        Oh well, I don't get to say to much of this listserv because of my
>     inexperience on the subject, so I just thought I would give this
>     observation on oriental buying and selling.
>
>     Regards from Pawnee America.
>
>     Tom La Bron
>     LTA, Oklahoma State University
>     Office:    norbal@okway.okstate.edu
>     Home:      norbalt@juno.com
>     Homepage:  http://www.geocities.com/Tokyo/Towers/6309
>
>     ------------------------------------------------------------------
>______________________________ Reply Separator
_________________________________
>Subject: Re: Teaser continued re' Japanese suiseki literature, suisek
>Author:  "Chris Cochrane"  at SMTP
>Date:    10/29/98 9:45 AM
>
>
>When I've found suiseki catalogs/books in Japanese that have primarily been
>photographs with an occasional a few lines of characters,  I assumed they
>gave minimum information about the stones.  As a translator related
snippets
>yesterday of a catalog/text entitled "Invitation to the Beauty of Suiseki
>(Guidebook for a New Learner),"  I realized the enthusiast in Japan is
>treated to a wealth of information about stone formations and the history
of
>suiseki collecting.
>
>For example, one stone pictured was of a "kurama" variety and the text went
>on to say where this stone is usually found, when it no longer was
collected
>from its original source area (Could it have been depleted by collecting?),
>where it has been found by collectors since, the physical qualities that
>distinguish examples of the stone and a comment on the geologic history of
>these stones.
>
>If the Japanese aren't impressed by the mostly shallow knowledge of stones
>and the extremely brief history of Western _suiseki_ collecting, it could
be
>because the rawest neophyte can read books such as this and know more about
>suiseki-- its art and its form-- and about stones that conform to the art
>than the most sincere student in the West.  Of course, the Japanese are
MUCH
>too gracious to point that out, but they also seem content to publish only
>in Japanese and must wonder why Westerners are content to know so little.
>
>In visiting suiseki enthusiasts and vendors, I found the Japanese collect
>and vend a wide variety of stones beyond what we  normally classify as
>suiseki.  Unexpected stones are also found in suiseki catalogs of Japan's
>most famous stones-- occasionally stones of such little obvious merit that
>you wonder why you can't fathom it.  If I could read the text, the stones
>only a mother could love were probably taken from a battlefield by a
>shogun-- and with a little prodding I'd be looking for a crab rather than a
>mountain view.
>
>In any case, vendors in Japan are clearly selling stones at different
>levels.  Among those who were primarily suiseki vendors (the exception
>rather than the rule), one fellow offered me a piece of bog iron!  This
same
>fellow also sold mostly stones that had been cut and after we talked for a
>while, I found I could ask about questionable stones and get totally honest
>answers about outrageous (to my mind) intervention.
>
>For example, I am familiar with Ligurian stones that appear structured
>similar to Japanese Furuya-ishi & other limestone deposits.  In Japan's
>limestone, however, my impression is that the limestone "bleeds" into the
>surrounding clay on the flat side of the stone, so that a clear demarcation
>between the two is not so clear as in the Italian.  This vendor had
Japanese
>stones with clear demarcation, and I asked if this clay was natural.  The
>vendor replied that the clay bottom had been baked-on, then a daiza had
been
>crafted to hold the clay!
>
>This same vendor had some polished stones that really GRABBED me--
>magnificent, but too big (and pricey) for this trip.
>
>I've seen stones from two Western collectors who have purchased from this
>vendor, and I wonder if they were as torn as I was at the fast & loose
>aesthetic, but absolutely honest dealings, of this vendor (if you knew what
>questions to ask).  He seldom offered comment except when specifically
asked.
> Of course, viewing stones quietly is the best way to perceive their merit,
>and I appreciated his forbearance.
>
>A second collector/vendor was a gentleman of advanced age.  It took police
>intervention to find his home, but the graciousness of folks I met on the
>street got me there.  It was HEAVEN in a room.  This man had suiseki and
>biseki of the HIGHEST merit displayed casually about his living room and
had
>numerous presentation boxes with stones not yet displayed in the room.  I
>later found he had a garage/warehouse also filled with collected stones.
>
>DUMB, DUMB me... he spoke NO English and my little Japanese was pitiful in
>useful communication.  He talked and talked but I could not understand as
my
>bugged eyes wandered the room.  Occasionally we would nod and I could see
>how much he wanted me to understand how sincerely his life was enriched by
>his hobby.
>
>He brought out an large album, ostensibly filled with articles he had saved
>over the years on suiseki-- perhaps all on his own suiseki.  Thumbing the
>album, he showed me a photo of him and of a suiseki sitting nearby; but the
>photo was of a younger man and the newspaper was dated 1940!
>
>This man had NO cut suiseki-- at least he absolutely insisted that every
>stone was uncut that he displayed, and no stone he offered for sale was
cut.
>The stones he offered for sale were unusual, however-- most I would have
>questioned as being suiseki before this trip.  There is NO question that
this
>fellow was absolutely sincere.  He shared tea with me, which seems a common
>business practice, insisted that I accept two exhibit catalogs as a gift
and
>directed me to other vendors.
>
>I'm still not sure the price he was offering stones as communication was
>very difficult & business does not proceed directly as you establish a
>relationship with your host in this venue before buying and selling.  He
>occasionally raised a number of fingers, to which I mentally added 4
zeros--
>e.g., six fingers equals Y 60,000 (at Y 120/$ = US $500). Perhaps I was
only
>expected to add 3 zeros (but adding 4 seems the common shortcut).
>
>PLEASE find yourself an interpreter if you VISIT a suiseki collector that
>may not speak English.  This man was wondrous, yet I can only share my
>translated thanks in detail by mail... :-(...   Imagine the conversation
>that I missed... :-((((
>
>I could go on and on about stones tucked-away in little shops... about
>carved stones from Japanese country areas that are presented and sold by
>suiseki vendors, but are not suiseki.  About the marvelous stones,
>especially biseki, found at a temple fair as the day dawned.  About
>collecting stones on and
>near the Katsuura River two hours in the country from Kyoto.
>
>I should note, because he is often quoted to defend as well as to attack
the
>practice of cutting stones, that Arishige Matsuura displays no stones of
>natural contour with a cut bottom in his Collection.  I think he was very
>surprised that I kept asking that question regarding stones that seemed
>unnaturally flat.   There is no question that he wants only uncut stones
and
>has a marvelous collection of Japanese suiseki.  I did not see stones from
>his friends elsewhere displayed, and once again it remained an unasked
>question because of our language barrier.
>
>...
>
>Hope this might stir the list as some of my best friends here insist it
>profits little to "understand" stones, just "experience" them.  That
doesn't
>satisfy me though I recognize the drift toward a Zen approach.
>
>An instructor of the Intensive Garden Seminar I attended in Kyoto
>convincingly dispelled the value of over-emphasizing Zen over other
>aesthetics, and it will certainly affect my relation to _suiseki_ &
_bonsai_
>appreciation.  This emphasis actually arose as part of the Japanese peace
>movement in this mid-century (with published proponents including Lorraine
>Kuck, D.T. Suzuki & Kitaro Nishida)  and has been as much an apologetic to
>dispel propaganda of the Japanese as fierce/barbaric as it has been a
>sincere expression of Japanese thought.  There are rich and broad Japanese
>approaches to aesthetics beyond the repeated WABI, SABI, SHIBUI, YUGEN
>mantra with which hobbiest continue grappling.
>
>In that vein, it was interesting to hear Japanese responses to KEIDO, which
>has become an increasing popular form of display aesthetics thanks to
bonsai
>journals (at least in the USA).  I love KEIDO-- the display in a tokonoma
of
>a hanging scroll, a principle art object (often a bonsai or suiseki) and a
>companion object.  The founder of the KEIDO school Ichiu Katayama certainly
>produced a lyric video on the subject.
>
>In Japan, I found numerous displays in the KEIDO form, but repeatedly I was
>told this is "Japanese form," not a special school's or master's form.
>Arishige Matsuura (president of Nippon Suiseki Association) and Takagi
>Bonsai Museum in Tokyo both offer displays to guests in their tokonoma that
>are consistent with KEIDO, yet Matsuura and Takagi hosts/hostesses insist
>the display is simply Japanese form.
>
>Hope this will encourage others to pursue suiseki enthusiasms if visiting
>Japan.
>
>Chris... C. Cochrane, mailto:sashai@erols.com, Richmond VA USA
>
>
>
>

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Fri, 30 Oct 1998 06:36:17 PST
Sender: owner-viewing_stones@triumf.ca
Message-ID: <002d01be0411$e50333a0$93bc49c2@joe>
From: Joe Davies 
Reply-To: Joe Davies 
To: viewing_stones 
Subject: "Treasures Transcending Time"
Date: Fri, 30 Oct 1998 14:15:50 -0000
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

Friends

I am delighted to announce the launch of my new website devoted to suiseki.
I am combining both commercial interests in regard to suiseki and related
items for sale, together with non-commercial information on the subject and
inspirational galleries. I am donating 5% of all sales to NAVSS.

The website is entitled "Treasures Transcending Time" and its address is
www.suiseki.com

I'd be pleased to receive feedback, both positive and negative (constructive
criticism please!). Its been a lot of work to get this site up and running
and I hope that you enjoy it, if you feel it is of merit please do spread
the word around about it.

Cheers
Joe Davies


    Source: geocities.com/tokyo/garden/1666

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