CKLN Mind Control Radio Series Tape
#27a Kathleen Sullivan
CKLN 88.1 FM Ryerson Polytechnical University Toronto
Ontario Wayne Morris: I am speaking with Kathleen Sullivan from
Tennessee, a survivor of mind control. Thanks very much for joining us
on this radio series, Kathleen.
Kathleen Sullivan: Thanks for inviting me.
WM: How did you become aware that you were being used,
or under the influence of, mind control?
KS: I first started realizing that I did not have a lot
of memories from my childhood and from my adult years, and I did not
have an awareness of most of my emotions back in the summer of 1990
when I went to a place called Crossroads in Chatanooga. It was a
co-dependency treatment program that I entered because my daughter had
been arrested for some serious charges. They wanted me to get some
extra help because they figured it was probably family/generational
and I started remembering that I had been sexually abused by my father
at home, as had several other siblings, and I went home and started
telling the authorities and was preparing to testify against him. I
started realizing that he was not the man I thought he was ... that I
had a real fantasy about who he was as my father. When that started to
break, I started to have a lot of abreactions ... physical memories
paired with the emotional memories of having been tortured by him at
home. And also used in voyeurism type sexual acts with him as a child.
He was suicided in January, 1990. I was made to watch.
When that happened, I totally shut down inside and became very
robotic, very out of touch with my emotions, and I entered a hospital
in Atlanta in a treatment program there. They called it "Intensive
Experiential Track" which was a more legal name as far as insurance
companies go for co-dependency treatment again. I started having more
memories of other types of trauma I had been there. Got out of that,
and then I started having ritual abuse memories. I am finding that
this is usually a normal process. You will remember the sexual abuse
first, then the ritual abuse, then the other stuff finally comes up.
I went in another hospital in the summer of 1991 out in
Dallas and that's where I finally began to accept what I was beginning
to remember ... that I had been programmed by the U.S. government to
be used to be an assassin, as well as to do some other jobs for them.
It was a very difficult time for me because I was absolutely terrified
that as I remembered I was going to be killed. I was having a problem
in the hospital with being homicidal towards the people there ...
nurses and staff. It was a real interesting couple of months for all
of us I think. I started learning that I had many many alter
personalities and fragments of my original personality. Each one had a
name, or a code number, or a code name. I have been working at it ever
since. It has been a real interesting experience so far.
WM: Did something trigger the memories initially, did
they start coming before your father had died?
KS: Yeah they did. I think that being in Crossroads,
where I was physically safe, probably for the first time in my life.
At that place I was not even allowed to accept phone calls or cards
from relatives. When they do that
kind of codependency treatment they want the patients to focus solely
on their own stuff inside, and not be taken away mentally or
emotionally from the recovery work they were doing. It was an
emotionally important month for me there. Nobody put it in my head,
in fact, I kept telling the staff there that my dad was a wonderful
man, that he was like Norman Rockwell, if you can imagine one of those
pictures. They kept asking, "why are you so shut down emotionally?" We
had explored that maybe it was alcoholism in my family - no. I had no
memory of sexual abuse. I was trying to figure out what was causing
this in me. One time I went to see a Batman movie on a pass from the
hospital, with a group from the unit. That movie, for some reason,
started it. I came back to the unit and I was hysterical, I could not
stop crying, I had a major headache which I also learned since then
meant that alter personalities were starting to come out.
I had this need inside to run away and hide where no one
could find me. It was a real tough time, but I was starting to open up
there. I had also had a falling-out with my father previous to that,
which was a first for me. My daughter had been arrested, and I think
he was trying to cover his tracks to make it look like she was crazy
or whatever ... I was also breaking his control of me at the same
time. By being willing to testify against him, that was breaking his
control even further. When he was killed, that broke it the rest of
the way.
WM: When you were testifying against your father, this
was strictly for the sexual abuse?
KS: Right. He had three children from his second
marriage and one of them came forward. We had never talked about that,
even now. What I had remembered independently about Dad doing to me
and my other siblings in a bathroom when I was a child was identical
to what Dad did to this half sibling and a younger half sibling about
30 years later. It was pretty amazing how he was still using the same
techniques. That was the beginning of breaking free and remembering
for me. Before he died, I was having flashbacks twenty four hours a
day it seemed, during my dreams and during my waking state.
Fortunately I had two therapists working with me who taught me to
journal everything. I have been journalling ever since, and it has
been a big help.
WM: When you were receiving these memories, how did they
come back? In different senses, or how did your memories come back to
you?
KS: A lot of times I might hear a sound that wasn't in
the room and I recognized that because it wasn't in the room, that it
was a sound memory starting to come up, or that part of a memory.
Sometimes I would hear
somebody talking to me ... my father or the voice of another person
that a lot of times I could recognize from my childhood. Sometimes it
would be a certain smell. Or I would be eating and all of a sudden the
food looked extremely unappetizing. I had a lot of physical memories
of being raped when nothing was happening physically at the current
time, it was all body memory. I had a lot of visual memory and then I
started having some recurring dreams. When I started writing them, and
allowed myself to explore that part of what was coming up in my mind
... I would spend hours and hours ... sometimes half a day just
sitting there and writing them up, and reliving them as I wrote, and
believe me, that was not fun either. Even now, I can look back on a
lot of that stuff, and go "wow" "yeah, this really did happen". It's
been amazing.
WM: What you are saying is that your father basically
was carrying out trauma-based conditioning on you ... at what point
did you become aware that this was being done for the purpose of mind
control?
KS: That again was in the summer of 1991. It wasn't
until I remembered the government connection and remembered that I had
been used as an assassin. I am fortunate on this in a way, because the
memories came up and alter personalities came out before I was able to
find information about these types of activities. I was feeling crazy
when that stuff came out. I wanted to believe that I had made it all
up, but I thought "omigosh if I made it all up", even subconsciously,
then I am really crazy. It was a very difficult time. I went back and
forth in denial a lot. When the information kept coming up, and the
alter personalities kept coming out very consistently, I realized I
couldn't keep denying it. If something that serious had been done to
me and I had been used to do it, then I was in danger presently and
the more I could accept this stuff, and accept the alter personalities
and fuse with them, the better I would be aware of what was going on
around me now.
WM: How did you go about verifying your memories at the
time you started remembering government involvement, and being used?
KS: It was very hard. What I tried to do was find
information where this had been done to people before. At the time the
information was extremely limited. I just came across John Marks'
MANCHURIAN CANDIDATE - that helped a little bit. I was able to get
hold of a xerox copy of Walter Bowart's original MIND CONTROL and
there was a chapter in there about a woman - I believe her code name
was Candy [Candy Jones] - it showed how she had been used to do a lot
of the same things, even at a place I remembered - it was called The
Farm. It may have been at Camp Peary. I have not bothered trying to go
there to identify it visually. A lot of the same techniques I had been
remembering she had mentioned being used on her. One of the things she
mentioned was cyanide with lipstick. I had been remembering using a
little
container of vaseline with a biochemical substance on it and then
poking or scratching someone with a pin with it. There were enough
similarities that I started to feel sane.
At the time I also was very desperate. I started reading
a book called THE MAN WHO KNEW TOO MUCH by Richard Russell, and I
wrote to him, and just shared a little bit of my story. He did
acknowledge that from his understanding, this stuff was still going
on, and "hang in there". So I did a lot of hanging in there ... Back
in 1991 I had remembered five main systems of programming that had
been used on me. It came out totally spontaneously. A psychiatrist at
the hospital in Dallas simply asked each of the patients in the group,
"...we want you write down maps of your system" and I just sat down,
and it just came out on paper -- Alpha, Beta, Delta, Theta and
Omicron. No one bothered to explain what all that was. I didn't know
any other patients there at the time who wrote that specific
information down. I went ahead and explored what this meant in alter
states, and a lot of it was pure visualization that had been
externally put in my mind through hypnosis and through other means.
Not understanding what any of this meant, except for what little I
could remember at the time, I just kept journalling and documenting it
as best as I could.
Back in 1993 I had written to Daniel Ryder who wrote
BREAKING THE CIRCLE OF SATANIC RITUAL ABUSE and he had mentioned
something in there about government mind control, so I wrote him a
letter and said "I have these systems of programming and it looks like
I have been used as an assassin and some other things". I just needed
to know that other people had heard of this so I could feel relatively
sane.
WM: When you say "systems of programming", what do you
mean by that, and maybe you could explain what each of these are?
KS: (Laughs) I am not claiming that I understand all of
this myself ... I think only a programmer can really understand it
all. What they did ... and I might add that my father was my primary
programmer from my childhood on. He was a sociopath because of some
horrible things he went through in his own childhood that I have found
out about ... he had no conscience at all about anything he did. He
was also a pedophile who preferred sex with children. I got hit on
that pretty hard too. He was an engineer for AT&T, formerly Western
Electric and he was an absolute genius in what he did for them. He
worked a lot with blueprints, he was very scientifically minded, and I
think that probably was his self esteem right there. He loved puzzles,
games, and he loved seeing how many alter states he could create in
one individual. He used me and he told me a number of times that he
was God to me ... and while I really believed it ... and he told me I
was his guinea pig and I really believe that ... and that I was his
prototype because as many as he could create in me successfully, and
document each part of me that he broke off and gave a code name to ...
that would make him look even better to the CIA who he was working
for.
WM: How would he go about creating ...
KS: There were a number of ways that he did it. He was a
true sadist. He even wrote a paper once on Marquis de Sade and I found
it several years after he died, and I went "uh, huh. this figures". I
guess because of the pain that he had inside that he hadn't dealt with
... and it was extreme. I could see it sometimes, he would dissociate.
He liked to inflict pain on others and he would sometimes use
electrical wires because he was an electrical and chemical engineer. I
still have a problem most of all with electricity. I cannot stand
being near bare wires, it drives me nuts. Even if the electricity is
turned off, you can't convince me it is turned off. He used sleep
deprivation, held food back. Used rituals extensively. He headed up a
small covert satanic cult in Reading, Pennsylvania. A small group but
they brought a lot of kids in for rituals and orgies ... that right
there did serious stuff to my head. I was made to participate in
ritual sacrifices from the time I was four years old. I am realizing,
and I think it is important for people to realize that a lot of the
stuff may not just be ritual abuse. It may actually be training and
conditioning for some people to be used later on for ops. Later on the
implements that were used in those ritual sacrifices I was able to use
in assassinations with absolutely no problem whatsoever. The things I
saw in the rituals ... anyone working in an emergency room will know
what I am talking about ... also helped me to desensitize later on
when I was involved in assassinations. The desensitization I think is
very important. But what he did was kept a real close eye on me, as
much as he could, either in the rituals or at home where he was doing
a lot of the torture to me. What he did was, he would use the main
part of me that was known as Kathy at the time be out and present
consciously and in control of the body, then he would traumatize that
main part of me, the original part of me, so that part simply could
not bear the pain or the horror any more. That part would simply go to
sleep ... I guess that would be self hypnosis, and would totally black
out amnesically. Then he would do something else to me to where I had
to come back but I couldn't bear it as Kathy. He would split off a
part and then he would give that part a name and just really mess with
each part's head, if that makes sense ... it's really all one head. So
what did was when parts of me split off and had no memory of the Kathy
part of me ... those other parts were what he called A Clean Slate ...
in other words, they had no memory so in other words he could make
them believe anything he wanted them to. He called it imprinting
because it was whatever beliefs he chose for those parts that's what
he would imprint them with -- emotionally and mentally. He did it to a
lot of other children. I was not the only one.
One of his specialties was splitting off children's
psyches and doing what he called "base programming" which was
assigning their names and such and other people would do more specific
programming to them later. He chose to do other more specific
programming with me as well just to show what he could do.
WM: This base programming is a result of being exposed
to trauma to cause dissociation?
KS: There are many ways it can happen. The Beta system
of me ... some people will just have one part that is named Beta ... I
need to add that there are a lot of mind control survivors who do not
have this particular programming. They have other types of programs
because other people were trying other experimental techniques and
trying to create other types of alter personalities and programs. My
Dad was specializing in this area.
WM: Your Dad must have learned these techniques from
somewhere. Where do you think he was taught ... or it sounds like also
your father was a victim of abuse or perhaps mind control as well.
KS: I believe he was. I am going to have be kind of
general on some of this because there are some things I am not really
safe talking about yet and I will say as much as I can comfortably.
On the other side of my family there are some white Russian
connections. These are people who are extremely anti-communist. They
were involved in some of this in a more primitive way. One of the
older male relatives would torture my Dad by applying electricity to
the many fillings in his teeth. That person had a great influence on
what happened to me, my Dad, my entire family. That person is
unfortunately still alive, or I would name him. He seemed to have ...
he told me that he had OSS connections and had been with the OSS
during WWII. He seemed to have a lot of connections to politicians in
D.C. as well, and to another person who I wish I could name, initials
HK, who I learned had actually been involved in bringing over a lot of
the Nazi criminal scientists from Germany at the end of WWII and later
on. My Dad told me that he, my father, had been used as an
interpreter with some of the scientists who were brought over by the
army and air force back then and OSS which then became CIA. I thought
about this, why my Dad became so influenced by those people, if that
is true. I finally realized something a couple of weeks ago. My Dad
had a strong German background. He was growing up in an era when to be
a German was just a filthy thing, because Germans were considered the
enemy. His mother would play German radio stations at night, but I can
see where he had a very difficult time because he already had low self
esteem, severely so. I can see now why he might have gotten
emotionally close to some of these people if he did interpret for
them. He spent a lot of time at different air force bases in at least
a four year period in the air force. Quite a few bases, it was
surprising how many.
Later on he spent a lot of time around people who were,
some people call them neo-nazis, or aryans ... people who were
involved with aryan-type organizations, activism and such. It looks
like somebody sort of woke up that part of his sense of having a
self-purpose, being important, being special. He became pretty
obsessed with satanic belief systems. He and some other men who he was
close to called themselves Knights Templar. As far as I know Dad was
never in the Masons although most of the other people were pretty high
level. Their meaning for Knights Templar was "germanic assassin". As a
female, since they were total chauvinists, I was not considered a
Knight Assassin, but they would call me a Daughter of Knight Templar.
There is something there.
He also went to Albright College which is right outside
Reading, Pennsylvania and graduated from there before he started
working for Western Electric, and they had a strong German group there
too ... he was in German clubs and such. I am not sure where all the
influences came from but they were pretty strong and I figure it gave
him an identity which he was pretty needy for.
WM: As you are probably aware, there is quite a debate
in the public about the recovered memories versus the false memories.
In your experience, how did you feel that a memory was real or not,
and what kind of problems are associated with the memory in terms of
trying to figure out exactly what happened to you?
KS: For me it was, and still is, very hard work. One of
the things I learned very fast as I was remembering was that it looks
like every single time, without fail, whenever I completed an op,
especially overseas ones
which I did for the CIA and another organization as well. When I came
back I would be debriefed and immediately what they would start doing
what I call "screen memories and scrambles." They can be two
different things. Screen memories are where they put an entire
separate memory in the mind so that when you start remembering you
will hit the screen memory first. It is an actual memory in that it
did happen, but not physically. What it usually was for me was they
would put me in a room where there was a movie projector or later on
they used virtual reality which made it even worse because there was
more of a sense of it being real. Sometimes they would drug me,
sometimes one of my handlers would sit there talking to me, and
narrating and hypnotizing me as I was watching a movie. A lot of
times they tried to pick out movies that had some similarities to what
I had just experienced. And I am assuming this means they were
preparing in advance. Other times they would use horror movies that I
had never seen before, they were that bad. We're talking x-rated
sometimes. So, I would hit those movie memories and it would be, "what
in the heck is this?" - this makes no sense whatsoever. I would feel
really crazy, and I would go okay, I remember that there was a man
sitting to the right of me, I remember I was sitting in a seat, I was
looking up at a screen, "aha, this is a movie" and then I would write
down the entire memory (who was near me etc.). from there I could
backtrack or I could forward from that point.
Scrambles were more where I would be with a group of
people, or with a handler, and they would put me under hypnosis and
make me see something out of the whole thing that was real -- they
would make me see one thing that absolutely was not real. One friend
of mine would see a kangaroo in a guard shack ... obviously it was not
a kangaroo. That's the kind of things they would do. They also did
what my Dad really liked, because it involved all the tactile
sensations which made the false memories seem even more real ... what
he called "acted-out" scenarios. That is where they would go ahead and
take the victim to a location where they would have people scripted
just like they were acting on t.v. or something and make the person
think that situation actually happened. Sometimes they would even
bring in a well-known Hollywood actor here and there, pay them pretty
well. I think some of them are probably blackmailed, and I think some
of them are also victims themselves. So when a person would remember
that stuff, that also would make them feel real crazy to actually
remember absolutely an actor that was on t.v.
The other thing they would do as far as screen memories
was a lot of times, after all that was done, and they were
transporting me back home ... a lot of times it was through Dobbins
Air Force Base ... they would transport me to a place in Cobb County
which was where the main cult was that my Dad was connected to near
the end, and make me participate in a ritual after everything else.
Here I would have to work through a legit ritual memory, then I would
have to work through a screen or scramble, then I might be looking to
get to the real memory. Fortunately for me, they were pretty
predictable but it took me several years to realize what was happening
and why the memories were coming up this way.
In that way I do think there is a legitimacy to what
people talk about false memories, but I do not think of it as people
making it up consciously or subconsciously. I consider it to be
externally induced false memories. I was talking to someone the other
day and one of the reasons the McMartin case was thrown out was
because the kids had mentioned that they were raped by Santa Claus. It
was a man dressed up like Santa Claus. They were telling the truth.
But the jury I believe found them not credible because of that. Kids
in Cobb County have shared that they had been used in bestiality with
lions. That one was real. But people could not believe that happened
and therefore the kids were considered not credible.
MIND CONTROL RADIO SERIES
Producer/Interviewer: Wayne Morris
Tape 27a Kathleen Sullivan