*WARNING: This page exposes and questions Farrell Till's methods of discourse and antics.

This webpage is in response to Till's essay "'James Patrick Holding,' the Want-to-Be Apologist". You guessed it the subject of Till's article is none other than the author of tektonics.org James Patrick Holding. Here, we defend JP Holding and his career. Although Holding has since responded to Mr. Till, we felt like adding our own sentiments to the discussion.

Often, when I'm faced with a debate concerning the Bible I reference JP Holding and his popular website because he has scholarly knowledge of Old and New Testament documents, culture, and history. He has become a fast favorite among Christians. As a matter of fact, tektonics.org is my personal favorite website to visit out of every Christian organization. You can read hundreds of articles defending the word of God from JP's website. Furthermore, he has exposed many atheists (and non-Christians alike) on their criticism of the Bible. You gotta hand it to the guy: he knows his stuff! JP is not some average joe Christian who has a mediocre knowledge of the Bible. If you go up against JP, you best be prepared because he knows whether you've done your homework on the Bible or not. Obviously, this makes JP a target among skeptics.

But, getting back to my experience with tektonics.org - after I proudly cite JP, my opponents would immediately provide a link of Till's essay on him. As if it's the say all end all argument - funny how they don't bother to attack JP's essays, instead they attack JP the man. That's all Till's essay comes to I'm afraid. Till obviously has personal animosity towards JP and has unscrupulously put his life at risk (as we will prove later)!

Look: If you hate JP, then you're gonna hate JP. BUT - if you hate JP, or contend that he is a hypocrite, liar or wacko for the reasons Till gives -- you've not only missed the mark, but you've got to hate Till for the same reasons.

My Comments:

Notice in the brackets (not mine) the editor, Donald Morgan, decided to take out some vital information of Holding's. For good reason! It seems that this "personal information" was Holding's wife's name, her place of employment, their home address, and their phone number! It's one thing putting Holding's real name on a public website (aside note: as of this writing Mr. Holding is planning on legally changing his name to "James Patrick Holding"), but apparently Till thought it was wise to put Holding's wife's name and info too! For what reason? I don't know. But, plainly, Till is not keeping this debate clean. Furthermore, why did the editors of infidels.org feel the need to delete Holding's personal information? Obviously, they knew that Till was way out of line. I mean that's a laugh, the very website Till contributes to reprimanded him! Granted, Till gave out his own personal information in a public forum, but he's missing the point. For one, he didn't give out his wife's name, her place of employment, and their phone number like he did to Holding; and two, he knew that Holding didn't want his information made public but defiantly and disrespectfully put it out in the open anyway! Till thinks that all this vital information won't add up to a threat on Holding's (or his wife's) life despite him working at a prison! Would it hurt to give a compulsive rapist Till's wife's name and place of employment as well as his home phone number and address, then? Till was confronted with this same sort of question before in the same forum. But in typical Farrell Till fashion he dodged the question (there is no reply whatsoever in the forum, see for yourself). Sadly, many atheists applaud Till's sleazy antics (see below for "Brooks Trubee").

More question dodging:
oFrom phantaz sunlyk (my personal favorite)
oFrom AVmetro
oFrom Hamster
oPhantaz sunlyk is still waiting Mr. Till
This is only the beginning.

The website of this prison can be accessed here. A description of the prison is on this site. This facility was originally established as a migrant labor camp, but more recently housed a bait farm and beverage distribution warehouse. In 1973 it was converted to house adult male inmates. It is designated to accept minimum, medium, close custody and all medical grade inmates. Lake C. I. provides academic, vocational and self- betterment programs. This is certainly no description of a maximum-security facility like Pelican Bay, so I doubt that the staff members live in fear that they are putting their lives on the line just by showing up for work. I have suggested to XXX that if he really does use a phony name because he fears that ex-inmates may come after him when they are released, then he should consider getting professional help for his irrational paranoia.

My Comments:

Irrational paranoia?! Till glosses over the offenders at the Florida Departament of Corrections and downplays the criminals there. Click on "Offender Search" then click on "Search All Corrections Offender Databases". You can find what kind of offenders are at the facility. You'll find there are criminals under "assault and battery, crimes against elderly and disabled, drug crime, escape, forgery/counterfeiting, fraud/embezzlement, kidnapping, manslaughter, murder, other violent crime, property crime, racketeering, robbery, sex crime, theft, weapon offense." Would you want any of these guys know info on you or your wife? Would you want them to know where you live? By the way, Mr. Till, thanks for the link. Why don't you give those criminals your phone number, wife's name and place of employment? These are the kinds of people you're faced with...

Inmates Currently Doing Time in the Florida Department of Corrections

DC Number:  079999 Name:  TERRY, RONALD E Race:  WHITE Sex:  MALE Hair Color:  BROWN Eye Color:  HAZEL Height:  5'09'' Weight:  164 Birth Date:  01/08/1961 Initial Receipt Date:  06/04/1992 Current Facility:  MARION C.I Current Classification Status:  NOT APPLICABLE Current Custody:  CLOSE Current Release Date:  SENTENCED TO LIFE

Aliases:
RONALD E TERRY	RONALD EUGENE TERRY

Identifiers:
FINGERPRINT CLASS - DO61DI13141558151615

Current Prison Sentence History:
Offense Date	Offense	Sentence Date	County	Case No.	Prison Sentence Length
10/02/1990	TRESPASS PROPERTY ARMED	05/11/1992	PALM BEACH	9013336	10Y 0M 0D
10/02/1990	KIDNAP;COMM.OR FAC.FELONY	05/11/1992	PALM BEACH	9013336	SENTENCED TO LIFE
10/02/1990	AGG BATTERY/W/DEADLY WEAPON	05/11/1992	PALM BEACH	9013336	30Y 0M 0D
10/02/1990	AGG BATTERY/W/DEADLY WEAPON	05/11/1992	PALM BEACH	9013336	30Y 0M 0D

DC Number:  120500 Name:  HANSEN, JENS P Race:  WHITE Sex:  MALE Hair Color:  BLONDE OR STRAWBERRY Eye Color:  BLUE Height:  6'03'' Weight:  185 Birth Date:  06/16/1948 Initial Receipt Date:  07/13/1990 Current Facility:  UNION C. I. Current Classification Status:  NOT APPLICABLE Current Custody:  CLOSE Current Release Date:  SENTENCED TO LIFE

Aliases:
JENS P HANSEN	JENS PETER HANSEN

Current Prison Sentence History:
Offense Date	Offense	Sentence Date	County	Case No.	Prison Sentence Length
09/01/1989	1ST DG MUR/PREMED. OR ATT.	07/10/1990	ALACHUA	8903931	SENTENCED TO LIFE
09/01/1989	BURGLARY ASSAULT ANY PERSON	07/10/1990	ALACHUA	8903931	4Y 0M 0D

Incarceration History:
Date In-Custody	Date Out-of-Custody
07/13/1990	Currently Incarcerated

DC Number:  140446 Name:  PARSONS, KENNETH Race:  WHITE Sex:  MALE Hair Color:  BROWN Eye Color:  BLUE Height:  5'09'' Weight:  187 Birth Date:  09/23/1958 Initial Receipt Date:  08/30/1993 Current Facility:  LAKE C. I. Current Classification Status:  NOT APPLICABLE Current Custody:  CLOSE Current Release Date:  SENTENCED TO LIFE

Aliases:
JON DAVID MEIER	KENNETH PARSONS

Current Prison Sentence History:
Offense Date	Offense	Sentence Date	County	Case No.	Prison Sentence Length
01/01/1991	SEX BAT BY ADULT/VCTM UNDER 12	08/20/1993	ORANGE	9202284	SENTENCED TO LIFE
06/01/1991	SEX BAT BY ADULT/VCTM UNDER 12	08/20/1993	ORANGE	9202284	SENTENCED TO LIFE
06/01/1991	SEX BAT BY ADULT/VCTM UNDER 12	08/20/1993	ORANGE	9202284	SENTENCED TO LIFE
01/01/1992	SEX BAT BY ADULT/VCTM UNDER 12	08/20/1993	ORANGE	9202284	SENTENCED TO LIFE
01/01/1991	SEX BAT BY ADULT/VCTM UNDER 12	08/20/1993	ORANGE	9202284	SENTENCED TO LIFE

Incarceration History:
Date In-Custody	Date Out-of-Custody
08/30/1993	Currently Incarcerated

Incarceration History:
Date In-Custody	Date Out-of-Custody
09/28/1981	03/21/1990
06/04/1992	Currently Incarcerated

Prior Prison History: (Note: Data reflected covers periods of incarceration with the Florida Dept.of Corrections since January of 1983)
Offense Date	Offense	Sentence Date	County	Case No.	Prison Sentence Length
03/30/1981	KIDNAP;COMM.OR FAC.FELONY	09/14/1981	MANATEE		20Y 0M 0D

Yup, I guess this non-Pelican bay like prison is just filled with altar boys. Gotta trust those violent, murdering, kidnapping, pedophiles, huh? Yeah, you're right, Mr. Till, JP Holding shouldn't "live in fear" or feel like he's putting his "life on the line" despite his life being threatened twice at work - this is what Holding was told to his face at one time: "If I see you on the street when I get out, I will kill you." I guess, according to you, Mr. Till, Holding should have responded with, "Gee, that's great! Here, let me give you my phone number and home address, and while you're at it you can have some fun with my wife. Here's her info... knock yourself out!" Anyway, JP Holding comments on Mr. Till's irrational criticism.

A jail riot in Brazil has police men held hostage by prisoners. You still think that prisoners won't retaliate against their authorities, Mr. Till? At least 39 officers died!

Hey Pharaoh Till, read this:

George Hyatte, in handcuffs and shackles, was headed back to prison from a court appearance Tuesday when Jennifer Hyatte drove up and fired at the two corrections officers escorting her husband, Police Chief Jim Washam said.

"Mr. Hyatte hollered, 'Shoot him!' She opened up fire on the officers, hitting one in the abdomen," Washam said. (cont'd)

Gee, seems like rapist Brian Nichols has a bad case of "taking revenge on his judge", and for good measure he kills the stenographer.

Since beginning his "apologetic" career as James Patrick Holding, XXX was laid off his prison job...

[LIE] - This is what JP Holding says:

Skeptic X (Farrell Till) says that I left my prison job because I was "laid off." This is inaccurate. I explained what happened, and offered to provide documentation from my former superiors. Skeptic X did not acknowledge this offer, and so he clearly prefers to spin his own story and keep it for polemical purposes rather than get at the truth.

What actually occurred began when Jeb Bush was elected governor of Florida. He appointed as head of corrections a person who (in line with Republican policy) preferred to cut expenses. The entire department was reorganized, and libraries were subject to staff cuts.

There are 60+ prison libraries in the state. The reorganization cut the positions for these almost in half, and replaced them with "paraprofessional" positions held by workers who would receive less pay and no benefits. (This was the job my two "successors" occupied.) At the time there were between 45-50 librarians in positions around the state. News of this first surfaced in January 2000 and developed over the next two months. Word was let out that librarians with greater seniority would be given preference to keep positions that were left. Having 7 years under my belt I estimated (by looking at a list of my peers) that I was about 20th in rank. (As a note, this should give you some idea how frequent turnover is in prison positions! At 7 years I was practically a "veteran" by comparison!)

Various options were floated for those who would no longer have a job. We might be able to keep a job in a different area, such as teaching in the prison school. We could "bump" people who had less seniority, but who still had positions at their institutions. Since I was in the upper middle of the pack, and two of the three jobs nearest me were held by people with more seniority (the job at my institution was one that would be cut), my status would be uncertain unless I was willing to move, which I was not. So I evaluated my options (among them, certain aspects of the new administration's policy and history) and decided to simply find another job elsewhere. This I did, with a local public library. I resigned of my own volition and desire and could have kept a job with the system if I so desired, albeit one in a different location forcing me to "bump" someone less senior, or doing work that I did not like doing. I was not "laid off".

Again, in private correspondence, the basic elements of the above were laid out to Skeptic X, who preferred instead to suggest that I was laid off for malfeasance and covering something up. I offered to provide documentation of the workforce reduction and of what transpired. This offer was ignored. Skeptic X obviously prefers to offer misinformation to suit his purposes. I extend the offer to document the above to anyone who doubts me.

Hmm, how long will it be until Till will open himself up to the truth of this matter? Apparently, he'd rather believe in a lie than the truth. Prove us wrong, Mr. Till. Told you he was unscrupulous. The madness! Since Holding's resignation there have been 4 successors.

[LIE] - JP Holding sets the record straight:

No Profit. A few words about non-profit or 501(c)(3) status. Skeptic X comments on our note that the majority of our support must come from the public, noting that his organization, also a 501(c)(3), does not have such a stricture. He roundaboutly admits that things may have changed since his own status was given in 1991 and notes that his effort has been supported through the "sale of subscriptions" to his newsletter and unsolicited donations, and accuses me of putting a "spin" on IRS regulations to beg for support. I do not know what adhered in 1991, but Skeptic X needs more knowledge than just what documents he dealt with in 1991. My source for this is Dan Busby's Zondervan Church and Nonprofit Organization Tax and Financial Guide 2001 edition. Bubsy is a veteran CPA who has served as a chief financial officer for a religious denomination. Busby tells us [34] that "unrelated business income" such as our sales through Amazon Books is permitted and is subject to taxation if it amounts to over $1000 per year (which it does not, for us, yet). He adds: "UBI must not comprise a substantial part of the organization's operation. There is no specific percentage on how much UBI is 'substantial.' However, organizations with 50% to 80% of their activities classified as unrelated have faced revocation of their tax-exempt status." (Emphasis Holding�s.) I therefore think it quite justified, on the word of a CPA with vast experience in such matters, to say that the majority of my support cannot come from anything but the general public. Of course if Skeptic X knows a veteran CPA who can say otherwise, I will gladly hear their opinion and change what I wrote, or else cite Busby as the authority and note the differing opinion. I have no idea how much of Skeptic X's support for his organization came from the sale of his newsletter. If it exceeded 50% he put himself at risk of having his organization turned into a parking lot, according to Busby. The bottom line is that Skeptic X conducted no investigation of the matter and preferred rather to submit his own "spin" based on what he merely assumed was true. For what it is worth, those who complain, as Skeptic X does, of my goal of $24,000, might consider that Dan Barker's "Freedom from Religion Foundation" has an annual budget of $500,000, a staff of five, and supports itself with annual dues of $40-50, and the sale of items such as The World Famous Atheist Cookbook. May I register a complaint?

[LIE] - JP Holding takes donations and sells his book The Mormon Defenders on line. There are bound to be mailing expenses for receipts for donations and delivering copies of The Mormon Defenders to Amazon books.

[BIG DEAL] - Dan Barfer has a paypal icon on his website too. Till's excuse of Dan Barfer's money-grubbing tactics and annual income of $500,000 (compared to Holding's $24,000) reeks of pure hypocrisy. JP Holding takes him down here. I think the picture is coming out more and more clear that Mr. Till is not only a pathological hypocrite but an unadulterated dim-wit. Or worse, a crazy old codger (with all due respect to his old age). Also, JP Holding has not been receiving his annual goal of 24K, here's what he writes to me via e-mail:

"The ministry's income has held steady at around 17K the last three years. What I pay myself has been far less. This last year, thanks to extra outside income, I took only around $9500 for pay from Tekton."

[HYPOCRITE] - Why then hasn't Mr. Till put a link of JP Holding's article "Attention Deficit, Case Study" on his "James Patrick Holding, the Want-to-Be Apologist" article? Aside: we caught the Internet Infidels (infidels.org) lying!

XXX has recently indicated that he intends to change his ways and not just put links into his articles but also come out into an open forum and debate where readers will have the opportunity to see everything his opponent says rather than just what he selectively quotes. He is, in effect, claiming that there will be a new XXX, but whether the new XXX ever becomes a reality remains to be seen, because signs are coming in almost daily that his promise of change may be just talk.

[LIE] - JP Holding has indeed put links to other websites. Here's proof (another version of the website). Also, just recently, Holding has responded to Richard Carrier's critique of Holding's The Impossible Faith right here. If you read the article you'll see that Holding has left a link to Carrier's rebuttal! [More on Richard Carrier's critique] Also, Robert Price critiqued Holding's "Impossible Faith", and Holding responded here - and yes, there's a link to Price's article! Furthermore, here is a link to Holding's open forum debates so you can read both sides. Happy now? Will a new Mr. Till revise his article? Aside note...

Brooks Trubee had said Holding "seems to have a great deal of trouble actually providing links". Great deal of trouble? Obviously, Trubee is touting the ol' Farrell Till line. Last I looked at Holding's website here (and then some) there's a link to Trubee's own website. It's no wonder Trubee has been practically making his name off of trashing Holding.

Related Links:
oRead my discussion with Brooks Trubee. Here he makes it clear he hates JP Holding
oJP Holding knocks out Brooks Trubee. Brooks is Jimbo. Here they talk about... what else? Hell!
oHolding still holds the Title against Brooks.
oBrooks Trubee: Boring Beyond Belief
oTektonics Ministry Kicked in the Pants
oTekton Trophy Room

XXX refers to Holtz as "our critic," so he apparently fears that if he refers to his "critic" by name, some of his gullible readers may actually have enough internet savvy to do a search and find the articles...

[SIGH] - JP Holding comments:

No Name Needed. A brief note is worthwhile on Skeptic X's comments on our responses to the "Trilemma critic." Skeptic X assumes that we do not name our critic because, "[Holding] apparently fears that if he refers to his 'critic' by name, some of his gullible readers may actually have enough internet savvy to do a search and find the articles" that the critic has written. Far from it. Those with more "internet" savvy than Skeptic X not only know to capitalize "Internet" but also know how to do a competent search using unique phrases which I quote from the critic's material. Skeptic X lacks this kind of savvy, as we showed in responses to him, not even having the sense to know how to do a title search for a known title. Our lack of naming this critic is a symbolic gesture of contempt for his arguments. We might add that after 4 weeks our open offer to direct anyone to the Trilemma critic's site, who asks via e-mail, has had but two takers, suggesting either that our readers are intelligent enough to find the site if they want it, or else don't care.

[HYPOCRITE] - Farrell Till had some conditions himself! Here I quote him:

At any rate, I gladly accept this condition if XXX will in turn agree to some of my own counterproposals.

"Gladly accept" this condition? Seems more "begrudgingly accept" if you ask me (Holding dealt with the Jehu problem here). Talk about absurd! Furthermore, here's another condition of debate Till wanted (1998):

I informed him (Holding) that I would respond to him only if he would agree to publish under his real name.

If Mr. Till thinks Biblical inerrancy is contingent upon Mr. Holding's real name then Mr. Till must be an even bigger wacko than I thought. Mr. Till won't respect Holding's request to use his pen name. Instead he exploits this opportunity to make it look like Holding is afraid to debate him. Clearly, Till's maturity level is like a 6th grader's. Is it any wonder that Holding wanted to test Till's competency? So, who can blame Holding for his following requests:

1. Skeptic X must first refute what I have written here demonstrating his propensity to use sausage-ball filler in place of actual argument. In other words, from this article, prove to me that EVERYTHING is worth posting and essential to the arguments, that EVERY word is precious nectar of the gods that cannot be sacrificed. I say that no more than 10%, more likely less, of what Skeptic X offers is anything other than fluff, repetition and blather. Each and every word must be justified as to purpose and necessity to be left in, otherwise, Skeptic X can find his own hosts. Note that I will not accept any backing down, i.e, Skeptic X cannot backtrack by saying, "Well, I didn't mean that you couldn't edit a little bit out" -- he says EVERYTHING, so I'm going to read his words like a Church of Christ fundamentalist preacher and assume that he means EVERYTHING.
2. I pay for this site, so correspondent with the 90% fluff ratio I demand that Skeptic X pay for 90% of the costs of hosting any item he submits -- whether he meets challenge #1 above or not. Obviously the amount would have to be determined based on going rates for server space and the length of the article written. I also want payment for 8 years in advance (about the time I have the tektonics.org name reserved). Based on Skeptic X's behavior I am not so sure he'll be around that long before giving himself a coronary, and I think the security is a good idea. [read below "You'll Pay for your Insolence"]
3. Last, should this be agreed to, and before any further response on any other issue than #1 above, I want to first discuss the item here where Skeptic X called upon Wood's book on Marco Polo to support his polemics, and I replied by noting the disagreement of Polo scholar John Larner with three of Wood's major arguments which Skeptic X cited. I want Skeptic X to issue a reply to each of Larner's counterpoints. If Skeptic X deigns to reply I will locate Larner and/or at least a dozen other scholars who specialize in the history of China and/or Marco Polo and send them Skeptic X's reply for evaluation. Let's see if Skeptic X can deal with the experts when it isn't the Bible he's playing with. I think he can't deal with them, and that he makes his way by shazaming the gullible into thinking that yelling "Prove it!" or "How do you know?" is a legitimate form of argument.

Personally, I don't think Mr. Till knew what he was going up against when he responded to Mr. Holding. If you read some of their article exchanges, you'd clearly see that Till underestimated Holding. Till looked like a deer caught in headlights! For the record, I e-mailed Holding where he said he'll debate Till in an open forum (just so long as Till keeps the debate clean and civil). Furthermore, Dee Dee Warren has been trying to get Till to debate Holding at theologyweb.com but to no avail. I sent the following e-mail to Holding:

And for the record are you still willing to debate Till on an open forum? It seemed like Dee Dee Warren was trying to set up a forum between you and Till (from what I read on the "contrived gospel" forum). But it never sufficed. Dee Dee told Frank Walton (my partner in crime) that Till has no more interest in the theologyweb website.

Yes, I'm still willing to debate on TWeb (where I have my exclusive agreement). You may have seen that Till got a taste of his own medication on the Contrived Gospels thread (someone compared it to piranhas eating a cow). He doesn't like the taste of his own medication so I suspect he'll never agree to come back there.

So, I have to wonder who the real scared culprit is. Personally, I think it's Farrell Till. If Till is stripped of his dubious scholarly research, and uncivil manner to keep the debate clean, not only will Till refuse to debate, but he'll hinge his own insecurities on his opponent by calling them nasty names or better yet needlessly threaten their lives!

One condition was that I would have to pay 90% of the cost of maintaining his website, which would be 90% of $35 per month or $378 per year ($31.50 x 12), and would have to pay it eight years in advance. In other words, XXX was saying that he would debate me on my site and his if I would just agree to pay him $3024 before the debate begins.

[LIE] - JP Holding says:

You'll Pay for Your Insolence! I quote myself from earlier work:

I pay for this site, so correspondent with the 90% fluff ratio I demand that Skeptic X pay for 90% of the costs of hosting any item he submits -- whether he meets challenge #1 above or not. Obviously the amount would have to be determined based on going rates for server space and the length of the article written. I also want payment for 8 years in advance (about the time I have the tektonics.org name reserved). Based on Skeptic X's behavior I am not so sure he'll be around that long before giving himself a coronary, and I think the security is a good idea.

I gave this as a debate condition before I knew that Skeptic X would soon have his own website, but I'd like to bring it up again. Note the highlighted phrases.... Shall we correct this little episode of adult attention deficit disorder? Or is it obvious enough? The whole website? Did I say that? Skeptic X is verbose and wastes a lot of space with fluff, but I suspect the cost would have been no more than $5 over 8 years for even the longest, fluffiest item he could produce, which would never occupy my entire website. (See the TheologyWeb "Contrived Gospels" thread for X's ridiculous attempt to evade this misreading.)

[LIE] - Apology, my eye! Get over it, Mr. Till. We know you had it in for JP Holding from the beginning. Your vendetta and tactics are sickening. Furthermore, 80% of your website is devoted in response to Holding. If you had the opportunity you'd devote a whole volume the size of Encyclopedia Britannica against Holding. So, quit the "humble" skeptic disposition your trying to dress yourself up as because it ain't your style, pal.

And those "static boasting" have been vindicated.

[HYPOCRITE] - Farrell Till has not put any articles of Holding's anywhere on his website either.

And he did as we showed above. Here's the link again. Furthermore, this link shows that Mr. Till declined to debate Holding!

[LAUGHTER] - Sorry, Mr. Till. But he did. JP Holding just about creamed you. You don't have to be a sore future-loser about it.

Abnoxio (aka Ted Bell) - This guy is just plain stupid... and disturbed. He has satirized JP Holding by putting up a website in "honor" of him while providing phony pictures. The following was deleted from Trubee's guestbook (if Trubee is totally unbiased he should at least keep Holding's posts in his guestbook but he keeps erasing them):

Dear Mr Abnoxio,

Your site is truly an inspiration to those of us who have been frustrated by [Holding�s] antics and had our self-esteem completely demolished by his website. I wish you well in your project, however, in order to be a better person using you as a role model, I would like to ask you a few questions.

1) I see at http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?t=37728 that you were recently banned from sciforums.com for remarks such as "All sand n*ggers must die," "Jesus says f*ck you!" and "Because there is no god you stupid f*ck." (I am sorry to have to edit these; but as you know, genius is seldom appreciated by censors like the ones that probably manage this guestbook.) What I�d like to know is, do you have a complete list of your most brilliant comments like these, so that I can have a handy reference guide?

2) I see that you have on your website, in addition to a [Holding] fan club, a page for beating up Mother Theresa and making blood spurt from her face. May I ask if you plan to expand this page in the future, so that visitors can also sexually assault Mother Theresa as well? (I ask this because I found a comment by you at http://www.talkaboutreligion.com/group/alt.religion.mormon/messages/630850.htmlb that says, "New evidence surronding [sic] the death of Joseph Smith suggests that he was not killed by the jailhouse mob as is normally believed. The evidence now shows that he died from having an unusually large amount of semen pumped into his anus by over 35 black men." I thought that this showed you might have had an interest in the sexual assault of others. I also appreciated your comment, "Sloppy the daughter, as all mormon teenage girls, has sex with about every person who walks through the door. As most 15 year old mormon girls, she has a variety of venereal diseases. Sloppy has just discovered the pleasures of anal sex with black men. Sloppy like most mormons will try to trap a man by getting pregnant" as found at http://www.talkaboutreligion.com/group/alt.religion.mormon/messages/630741.html.)

3) I see by http://www.apartmentratings.com/rate/vd/520323934785704/true/45083.html#continued that you have children. Do they help you compose your material? Do you share it with them? What do they think of your idea that �all mormon teenage girls� have sex with every person who walks through the door?

4) I enjoyed the [JP Holding] game, but I�m having some problems refuting arguments from other Christians. Can you make me some more of these so that I can also refute the Ph. D. scholars [Holding] sometimes uses? Also, what do I do if someone makes an "Anthony Flew Game" or a "Brooks Trubee Game"? How do I answer that argument?

I guess that�s all I want to know for right now. I just wanted to say how much I appreciate your [Holding] Fan Club page and hope to see you do more like it in the future.

Signed,

Abnoxio, Sr.

Brooks Trubee - Yeah, I know we already dealt with him. But you should understand that despite him actually approving Farrell Till's article and lying about JP Holding not providing links, what does he do? Trubee criticizes Holding for not providing his real name on his website. That's funny coming from Trubee who once registered tektonics.com under "Gorgon Pruntky"!

Psycho Dave - This is what Psycho Dave writes about tektonics.org - "It's run by a guy named James Patrick Holding, whose use of ad Hominem seems to be the most prominant tactic." Ad Hominem is the most prominent tactic for Holding? Funny coming from Psycho Dave who writes the following about Christian organizations:

CAPO - "...the site is hosted and payed for by D.James Kennedy's Coral Ridge Presbyterian Church, so you know it's a front for one of his scams."

Creation Research Society - "See the old farts lined up in front of their shack in the middle of nowhere..."

Institute For Creation Research - "Duaine Gish and Henry Morris, the founding fathers of modern "scientific creationism", founded this organization. Though both have been skewered in debates for their faulty data, inane logic, and generally poor arguments, they apparently are not aware of it. Henry Morris's boring and often silly book, 'Scientific Creationism' is still a mainstay of creationists, and that book is probably the single reason that creationists always seem so lame." [You should know that Blondie actually thought Gish beat Michael Shermer in a Creation/Evolution debate].

Stand to Reason - "This is the official Web page of the popular Kooky Kristian radio show..."

Well, you guys get the point.

Anyway, this is just the tempest to the teapot when it comes to all the Holding critics. Obviously, they are just hurting themselves with their rambunctious behavior

A note to Farrell Till supporters

How long will it be until John Farrell Till apologizes to James Patrick Holding? Hurry, Mr. Till, the clock is ticking. We'll give you the time since you've written your expose on JP Holding (8/2002). So far...

Related anti-Farrell Till Links:
oFrom Tektonics.org (as Skeptic X)
oYear by year refutation of The Skeptical Review
o Skeptical Refuse Online (a parody and a must see)
oWho's Minding the Till?
oTill We meet again Trey
oResurrection Stands firm
oFarrell Till and the Bible's Scientific Foreknowledge -- A Reply
oMatthew Bell drills Till a new one
oDouglas Wilson takes Till down
oASA Jones (an ex-atheist) blows Till away (part 2)
oThe Resurrection of Osiris According to Farrell Till
oThe Pagan Origins of Resurrection Refuted!
oKent Hovind vs Farrell Till (part 2)
oJason Gastrich vs Farrell Till
oNorman Geisler vs Farrell Till
oMichael Horner vs Farrell Till
oWind Him Up and Watch Him Go!
oFarrell Till gets a taste of his own medicine at Theologyweb.com (a must see forum)

Responses to Till's articles:
Note: many of Till's articles have old links to Holding's... Till has not updated some of these links!
oIn response to Bobby Grabs More Straws
oIn response to Drooling for Dollars
oIn response to Give Us This Day Our Daily Dodge
oIn response to Still Huffing and Puffing
oIn response to The Humpty Dumpty of Biblical Apologetics
oIn response to Humpty Dumpty Takes Another Fall
oIn response to It Doesn't Matter?
oIn response to The Mary Magdalene Problem
oIn response to The Paper Shortage
oIn response to Will XXX Take Up Plumbing?
oIn response to Problems in the Ending of the Gospel of Mark
oIn response to XXX Takes the Bait
oIn response to What Men with David?
oIn response to What XXX Refuses to Answer
oIn response to Where Are the Links?
o In response to Why Didn't They Know?
oIn response to Wrapping it All Up

Response to Till in general:
oStill Waving the White Weasel Hairs
oWeasel Frothing at the Mouth
oWindup Weasel Toy
oPolo Pony
oWashing Our Hands Under Niagara Falls
oAttention Deficit, Case Study
oNothing Left to Be Proud Of
oThe Country Bear Portfolio
oKnow Nothin' on Know It All
oWhat Would Chemosh Do?
oThe Technical Nitpick Parade
oLosing Your Shirt While Sewing a Mitten
oBurping with Pringles in Your Hand
oUnkind Cut
oMr. Perdue Has His Say
oResponding to the Hurricane with Spitwads
oA demand for a public apology from Farrell Till

We would like to thank James Patrick Holding for his full cooperation and input on this website.