Miscellaneous - 4
Re: Hell and Paradise
Question:-
I encountered the following
statement online at an Islamic website:-
"Neither is the bliss of paradise
the final stage for the righteous, nor is the agony of hell the final stage for
the unrighteous. Just as we experience the glowing sunset, then evening, and
then the full moon at night one after another, even so shall everyone progress
whether in paradise or in hell stage by stage towards his Lord, and thus shall
be redeemed in the end. [84:6, 16-19]
I am myself a Universalist and I
read this as a Universalist statement. Is Islam Universalist? Is then
Universalism a recognized heresy in Islam?
Comment:-
Islam is not interested in slogans
and labels or opinions based on desires or whim. But some people might be.
However, the statement you quoted
is mainly true.
Hell fire is purifying, a place of
punishment that provides an incentive for repentance. And there are many
degrees of it. (101:0-11, 15:42-44)
What the Quran says is:-
"And as for those who are
wretched, they will be in the Fire; sighing and wailing will be their lot,
abiding therein for so long as the heavens and the earth endure; save for what
your Lord wills. Verily, your Lord is Accomplisher of what He wills. And as for
those who are glad, they will be in the Garden, abiding therein so long as the
heavens and the earth endure; save what your Lord wills, a gift
unfailing!" 11:106-108
"You shall surely travel
from stage to stage!" 84:19
"How can you disbelieve in
Allah, when you were dead and He made you alive, and then He will cause you to
die, and then make you alive again, and then to Him will you return?" 2:28
"Seek aid with patience
and prayer, though it is a hard thing save for the humble, who know that they
will meet their Lord, and that to Him they are returning." 2:45-46 Also
2:245, 3:83 etc.
However, the return to Allah does
not necessarily mean to be in Paradise with
Allah:-
"O you who believe! You
have charge of your own souls; he who errs can do you no hurt if you are
rightly guided. Unto Allah will you all return, and He will declare to you the
truth of that which you did." 5:105
It is a question of making
progress. There is a "ladder" or a "Straight Way" and one can go forward
or backward.
Hell is a state of being neither
dead nor alive (20:74), an intermediate state. It could be that sin leads
eventually to the complete destruction of the soul, so that what survives is only
that which has made spiritual progress.
"He will broil in the
great Fire, wherein he shall neither die nor live! He is successful who grows
(spiritually)." 67:12-14
The final end is:-
"And call not upon any
other God along with Allah; there is no God but He. Everything is perishable
(or will perish), except His countenance. His is the command, and unto Him
shall you return!" 28:88
"All that is therein (on
earth) must pass away. And there remains naught but the Countenance of your
Lord of Might and Glory." 55:26-27
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Eating Pig Meat
Question:-
Christians quote Jesus saying 'not
what goes into your defiles you but what comes out does' as an allowance of
eating pig. How do we refute this claim?
Answer:-
Muslims follow the Quran not the
New Testament.
However, Jesus (saw) also said:-
"Think not that I am come
to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be
fulfilled." Matthew 5:17-18
This refers to the Law in the Old
Testament, the Law of Moses (saw) where eting pigs is
forbidden. Christians abandoned the law despite what Jesus said and Muhammad
(saw) restored it.
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Punishing thieves
Critic:-
The Quranic instruction to cut off
the hands of thieves is a barbaric practice that cannot be tolerated in
civilised countries.
Answer:-
Is theft and robbery civilised
behaviour? Or condoning it? Or imprisoning people? The punishment has an
educational function in showing the degree of disapproval and it is a deterrent
which abolishes itself when effective. In general, the rule does not apply
where there are extenuating circumstances and applies only to persistent
offenders.
Critic:-
Persistence or not, cutting off
any man's hands does not produce a better man, he can still thieve with his
mouth, or even the stumps of his hands, and his mind can still be inclined
towards wickedness.
Comment:-
Does Prison make them better?
The punishment is meant to deter
and to teach people to abhor the crime. It makes the society better. If by mild
punishment no deterrent effect takes place then the compassion which you
advocate destroys itself. What about the compassion for the victims? Is there
none? Is the harm done to hundreds of victims really worth exchanging for the
harm to one miscreant? Clearly wisdom is required not sentimentality, other
wise we have false compassion.
The punishment is not for those
driven by dire need, and the application of compassion is not ruled out. The
thief knows the consequences and accepts them.
Critic:-
You say "The punishment is
meant to deter." Maybe, but the prime purpose of punishment is to punish,
and the question to be asked is: does the criminal DESERVE the punishment Is it
JUST?
Comment:-
There
are three answers:-
(1) The
Quran says it is just. We believe the Quran and follow it, not you.
(2) In
human affairs, it is Ethics that counts. This means that actions and reactions
have a purpose. There are three aspects to this:- (a) The punishment is meant (i) to deter the crime, (ii) to have the educational effect
of creating disapproval for the crime
(iii) to prevent the criminal from committing further crimes and (iv) to
encourage reformation in him. People do learn from pain and pleasure if they do
not learn from instruction and observation. (b) When it deters the punishment
abolishes itself. (c) When the punishment is not severe enough owing to
compassion and does not deter allowing the crime to proliferate and do harm,
then it condones the crime and that compassion negates itself and becomes
cruelty to victims.
(3)
Justice is connected with Law. If a person puts their hand into the fire, it
burns. There are three aspects to Justice:- (a) That it applies to all similar
cases equally. (b) That the punishment is proportional to the crime - the
greater the abhorrence of the society for the crime the greater the punishment.
(c) That the miscreant knows what the punishment is and accepts the risk.
Justice is connected with Law.
Critic:-
There is always the possibility
that just one man may lose his hand unjustly, and the loss of his hand cancels
out all justice and wisdoms that came before.
Comment:-
The Law applies when there is no
doubt that the theft has taken place by the thief. A person is not a
"thief" until this is known. False accusations are punishable
offences.
Christian Critic:-
When a man turns his conscience
freely towards God, then the change not only happens in him, but also he
changes society.
Comment:-
You are mixing things up.
There is that which is good for a
society and there is that which is spiritually good for the person. We are
speaking of unrepentant persistent thieves. There is the social law and the
spiritual law.
The Mosaic Law is a social law
which Jesus did not abolish, but he added the spiritual law of forgiveness.
Jesus said:-
"Think not that I am come to
destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For
verily I say unto you, till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one title shall
in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled." Matthew 5:17 -18
Christians abandoned the Law and
Islam restored it. The Quran tells us:-
"We have prescribed for
you therein (in the OT) a life for a life, and an eye for an eye, and a nose
for a nose, and an ear for an ear, and a tooth for a tooth, and for wounds
equal retaliation;' But whoever remits it, it is an expiation for him. Whoever
judges not by what Allah has revealed, these are the wrong-doers (the
unjust)." 5:45
"And the recompense of
evil is punishment like it, but whoever forgives and amends, he shall have his
reward from Allah; surely He does not love the unjust." 42:40
We follow the Quran. What point is
there in arguing about it?
Critic:-
(1) In Exodus it is written, eye
for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot. This is sometimes
interpreted as revenge, but in fact it means ONLY an eye for an eye, no more. I
don't understand why Allah seems to have gotten much more severe in the Quran
in 5.38.
(2) We are created in God's image,
we are horrified by 5.38, so presumably God would be horrified by it too. Would
he send a final message to all men for all time that he was horrified by?
(3) You propose various apologies
for this verse. My question is, would God write a final message to all men for
all time that could leave some ambiguity regarding something as catastrophic as
imposing amputations?
Comment:-
(1) What makes you think that the
Old Testament has to be interpreted so literally? What about stoning of the
adulterers? Is that not in the Law of the OT?
(2) God is not a man and man is
not God, though he has His spirit within him. But have not heard that man has
fallen from Paradise owing to sin? He does not
function according to his inbuilt potentialities. Have you not learnt that he
is to be punished for sins on earth and in Hell? That is why he is on earth to
learn.
(3) No apologies are proposed,
only explanations. Are you judging God by your own opinions? We do not do so.
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Quran
Critic:-
According to some Muslim leaders,
Muslims are not permitted to read or have Bibles. The real reason why it was
not permitted for Muslims to have Bibles is that Muhammad "claimed"
his revelation would be perfectly aligned with the prophets and scriptures
before him. However, they were not. So, while Christians could adopt the
Scriptures before them, the scriptures before Islam present a "problem".
Comment:-
You are speculating. There is no
ban on having or reading the Bible in Islam
There is no problem about the past
scriptures. We all know that the New Testament was written by third persons -
the Gospel writers. Though they contain the sayings and doings of Jesus they
also contain opinions of the writers. We also know as has been repeatedly
pointed out that Jesus did not teach Trinity, his own divinity or Vicarious
Atonement as Christians teach.
Apart from this Islam is a new
formulation of Religion, another point of view, and that does not have to be
similar to the way Jesus presented it and certainly not similar to Christian
misinterpretations.
Critic:-
Nobody can clarify why the
followers of the prophet who all learned the Quran by heart, did not remember
in which order the Suras (verses) were revealed. Either they forgot it and then
there is reason to believe that they also had forgotten parts of the Quran, or
they invented them.
Comment:-
In what way does your not knowing
or understanding become "nobody can clarify"? Did you not know that
the verses of the Quran came in small parts that were connected with events and
can still be understood in connection with events?
Why do you require a chronological
order? And why should things conform to your desires?
The verses of the Quran were
remembered by many people and also written down. So even if some were forgotten
by some people, others did not. Apart from this the same ideas were also
repeated several times and a self-consistent system was formed such that empty
spaces in the pattern can be filled as in a jigsaw puzzle.
Critic:-
Can you
give a clear cut clarification why the suras in the Quran are listed in order
of their length?
Comment:-
Are
they? Did you compare the number of verses?
Chapter
1 has 7 verses as does 107, the
last, Chapter 114 has 6. But the one before that, Chapter 113 has 5. The
shortest are chapters 108 and 110 which have 3. Chapter 106 and 112 have 4. Ch
18 has 110, Ch 20 has 135, Ch 22 has 78, Ch 23 has 118.
Critic:-
Your
assertion that the verses relate to events is Islamic "dogma" not
proven.
Comment:-
As we
see from the above, you go by hearsay and not by your own observation. Not
"proven" to whom? Not proven to you because you do not know or want
to know its history and you do not apply it.
But does
it matter if it is a "dogma" if that is the way the Quran is
understood by Muslims? Whether it is or not cannot matter to non-Muslims.
Critic:-
One
requires a chronological order so that one can be sure of God's intent when
reconciling conflicting verses (naskh), without the
subjective input of scholars who might have a different agenda?
Comment:-
There
are no conflicting verses in the Quran. The verses are not to be read as
conflicting. They relate to real events and to each other.
Critic:-
I do not
require a chronological order, but if the companions of the prophet learned the
Quran by heart, as is again official Islamic dogma, then why didn't they know
the chronological order? If they
forgot the chronological order, then this is a hint that it is quite possible
that they also forgot parts of the Quran.
Furthermore
the official Islamic version is that the Prophet's secretary was involved in
the collection of the Quran from diverse materials on which the suras were
written. It seems quite impossible for me that this secretary had no clue of
the chronological order in which the suras were revealed. At least he should
have had a general idea of the chronological order. The solution that the suras
were ordered by their length seems to me as a strong point that the Islamic
version of the story is a fake from later times.
Comment:-
The
chronological order is not important for things that have relevance to events
and to each other.
You are
speculating. The collection was made under the orders of Caliph Osman. It was
not just one person that was involved, but a whole committee. The chronological
order was obviously not considered important.
Apart
from its relevance to events, there is an order in the Quran:-
The
first Chapter contains the essence of the Quran. The Second is an elaboration
of the first. The others deal with various themes that are found in the second.
The last few chapters place emphasis on or clarify certain points. There are
also connections between the different chapters and between different verses
and subjects. It is more like a network. Some chapters are headed by so called
“Mystic letters” about which there is some speculation, but a
probable explanation is that there is a connection between chapters that have
the same letters. There are 14 letters that occur in various combinations.
The
whole of the Quran can be regarded as an elaboration of the contents of the
Basmallah, the constantly repeated formula “In the name of Allah, the
Benevolent, the Merciful.” This is because the
formula is found at the head of each chapter except chapter 9, but an extra one
is found 27:30, making it equal to the number of chapters in the Quran (114 =
19 x 6 where 19 is the number of letters in the Basmallah and 6 is the number
of days of creation and the sum of the digits 114). This is a formula
encapsulate the whole of Islam (Submission to Allah). It (a) asserts a Truth,
(b) expresses a motive and value and (c) provides us with an instruction. It is
something Muslims are required say with thought and sincere intention before
every action.
The
purpose of this is:- (a) To remember Allah who is
their creator and has all the other attributes that describe Him in the Quran.
In particular it mentions Ar-Rahman which has been translated as Benevolence
but refers to the fact all things exist because Allah has supplied them with
the means to exist, and Ar-Raheem which has been translated as Merciful but
refers to the forgiveness and rewards obtained by those who obey Allah and do
good. (b) To remember the purpose of their existence, this is to serve Allah.
(c) To be aware of ones motives and actions as opposed to doing things
automatically, from habit or impulse. (d) To be aware of the consequences of
actions. (e) To ensure that what one does is right in the sight of Allah (f) To
ensure that one avoid what is wrong in the sight of God. (g) To ask for the
blessings and help of Allah. (h) To express gratitude to Allah that one has
been provided with the means to serve and earn His blessings. (i) As the action is done for Allah one accepts the
consequences and does not despair if it is not successful.
Muslims
are satisfied with the Quran as it is, and not only the verses but also the
rhythm and the structure of the chapters and the Quran as a whole are a subject
for meditation and source of instruction.
And why
should things conform to your desires?
Critic:-
That is
your conclusion. I do not want things to conform to my desires. I just had a
question.
Comment:-
You are
making assertions not just asking questions, and they are based on unjustified
assumptions.
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Re: Attributes of Allah
Critic:-
John Wansbrough,
the Quran scholar, was a very sceptical man and when I find him assuming some
result as proven I take it seriously. In "The Sectarian Milieu"
(Prometheus Books 2006, original 1978) on page 108 I read "Wolfson has demonstrated the Neo-Platonic component in the
development of the Muslim doctrine of attributes out of the Trinitarian concept
of hypostasis."
Wansbrough gives a reference to H. Wolfson "The philosophy of the Kalam"
Harvard University Press 1976 p112-32, 304-54. Surprisingly enough, Wolfson's book is available online at
islamicphilosophy.org.
The idea that the
"Muslim" doctrine of Allah's attributes developed out the Christian
doctrine of the persons in the trinity surprised me. What Wolfson
appears to me to have proven is that Christians arguing for the Trinity and
Muslims arguing for attributes used exactly the same terminology (Neo-platonic
on the whole) in exactly the same way.
Comment:-
The usual errors of thought.
Because "A" resembles in
some ways "B", therefore "A" must derive from
"B". And there is also confusion because of lack of discrimination.
The Attributes of God that refer to manifested characteristics are not the same
thing as the Trinity, which refers to three persons in the godhead. What the
Quran does is to rectify this misconception.
What the Quran says is:-
"O you people of the Book!
Do not commit excesses in your religion, nor say against Allah anything save the
truth. The Messiah, Jesus the son of Mary, was but the messenger of Allah and
His Word, which He cast into Mary and a Spirit from Him; believe then in Allah
and His messengers, and say not "Three." Desist! it is better for
you. Allah is only one Allah, Glory be to Him, too Exalted is He that He should
beget a Son! To Him belongs all that is in the heavens and that is in the
earth, and Allah suffices as Defender." 4:171
"But Allah belong the most
beautiful names; call on Him then thereby, and leave those who pervert (or
profane) His names. They shall be rewarded for that which they have done."
7:180
Muslims do not argue for the
attributes of God. They get the idea from the Quran and the Quran is a
revelation, something perceived. I am sure the Prophet did not study someone's
arguments about Trinity. This is speculation, all pure nonsense.
However, it is true that Hindus,
for instance, have numerous gods, but that these are regarded as different
aspect of the same One God. The Islamic idea can, therefore, be regarded as an
absorption or rectification of polytheism.
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