Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 13:25:34 -0500 From: freematt@coil.com (Matthew Gaylor) Subject: More On Thermal Imaging To: freematt@coil.com (Matthew Gaylor)
[Note from Matthew Gaylor: Several of the engineers on this list have responded- I'll post some additional commentary if any other engineers, physicists, scientists or others care to share their thoughts on this technology. On a practical note- I do know that heat masking "blankets" have been developed for military applicatios to hide troops in the field from thermal imaging devices.]
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 15:17:24 -0500 From: "Thomas G. Burke" <thomas_g_burke@mail.northgrum.com> Organization: Northrop Grumman ESSS
To: Matthew Gaylor <freematt@coil.com> Subject: Re: Thermal Imaging Privacy Case From Oregon Goes Before High Court
True & not true...
Using a pure optical thermal IR imager, what Pete says is true. However, there are some other technologies that use the thermal noise (in the RF bands) which _can_ see through walls. I am told that they can even see through cinder blocks.
There are two versions of this that I have heard of, but have never personally seen:
1) Active RF transmitter (like a police radar gun) illuminates the target. Thermal differences in materials cause minut phase changes in the radar beam, & this is analyzed by the hardware to paint a picture.
2) Passive RF system - works similarly to above, but without the transmitting source. Not as effective, but does not radiate, thereby not tipping off whoever is being watched.
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Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 12:21:01 -0800 (PST) From: Lawrence Cipriani <lvcipriani@yahoo.com> Subject: RE:Thermal Imaging Privacy Case From Oregon Goes Before High Court To: Matthew Gaylor <freematt@coil.com>
Matt,
If you want to see something spooky try:
www.time-domain.com
Then
-> technology -> our technology -> through wall motion detection
They have reworked their web site a lot, it's less big-brotherish than it used to be. The old photos showed very clearly their equipment can see through solid walls and doors. This stuff works, and they are selling it to government agencies today.
There will be a court case over it someday, I'm sure.
===== "A certain amount of danger is essential to the quality of life." -- Charles Lindbergh
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Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 17:29:19 -0500 (EST) From: bjacoby <bjacoby@NetWalk.com> Subject: RE: [gun-talk] Thermal Imaging Privacy Case From Oregon Goes Before High Court
What Peter says is more or less true as far as it goes. (I do believe that IR maging can "see" a person leaning against a wall in a typically insulated house.) And while attic heat loss may be a shaky reason to search a home, this is now commonly done. The justification is usually that the heat comes from high powered "grow" lamps used to raise marijuana. The cops argue that is is no different than using electric company billing data (which they also commonly do) looking for heavy users of power.
But before you get all warm and fuzzy with Peter's assurances tha "nothing" can be seen, let me warn you all, that Infrared is only a PART of the electromagnetic spectrum. Devices have now been developed that can image with millimeter and submillimeter microwaves. Resolution may not be quite like photography but still plenty good to see what people are up to. Ordinary drywall/wood/styrofoam insulated walls (without aluminum foil layers) as well as ordinary clothing are transparent as glass! (PRO has reported on this development in the PROponent some time in the pat.)
[ http://www.peoplesrights.org/ ]
So the bottom line here is the IR case is yet one more camel's nose under the tent. All the arguments will be made that "nothing" can be seen with IR viewers and all the while the state has this other technology waiting in the wings. Once the court gives the OK on Infrared imaging, unless there is a specific definition on which exact wavelengths are "infrared" it's open season on EVERYONE'S privacy! Believe it!
<satire mode on> But then why shouldn't the state not have the right to look into your house and see what you're doing...I mean, if you aren't up to no good, what do you have to hide? Right? <Satire mode off>
Frank
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From: SONNY0834@aol.com Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 00:26:09 EST Subject: Re: Thermal Imaging Privacy Case From Oregon Goes Before High Court To: freematt@coil.com
Your article sounds like it is factual, like you said window yes, thick well insulated walls no. (Now I would suspect there is a very good chance there is classified technology that perhaps could, but here I think you would be getting away from Microwave technology.)
I know you can view a city street area at night with microwave and see people very well, one incidence, you could tell that out of 5 cars, one had the engine running due to the engine heat, but you could not see if anyone was inside due to the angle of view, I do not know the ranges or penetration, but would expect about the same as visual for Microwave Audio. Open area its grate, if you have a window, which is not covered with heavy drapes it is also grate for audio. Microwave has several capabilities other than audio and visual, depending on what technology you combine with it to create the type of useful system you want.
My guess would be with the inception and work being done now due to Quantum mechanics, there is Sonar, nano waves, and some they can't explain yet, I would suspect the same here as with microwave, the smaller the fluctuation of wave lengths there should be better technology around than Microwave. By the way enjoyed your article.
Sonny
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