Cathy initially responded to some posts I made on Time's gun control debate area about how education and familiarity helped prevent firearms accidents.

1/20/97
I would just like to say that, living outside of the USA for 16 years and seeing it from a distance, it is not a place I would like to live. What a violent place, with everyone wanting to own guns and take the law into their own hands like in the Far West. What a wicked spiral, wanting to have a gun to protect oneself from the other guy who has a gun. I say keep them out of the house - they are NOT just pieces of metal like a knife or a screwdriver. The latter have their own purposes and, though they can be used for agression, the agressor must be in contact with his victim, not at a distance from which it is easy to kill in an instant. Furthermore, what other use does a gun have than that? Why do we want to shoot each other?

(By the way, it is: "if his daughter HAD known that, and he HAD announced..." - a grammar buff, not just a pro-gun control advocate, happened to read your comment to TIME.)

The biggest mistake that the man who accidentally killed his daughter made was having the .357 magnum in the house. Why does anyone need one of those? "The right to bear arms..." etc. was written over 200 years ago when we were defending our new country and was referring to a militia. This is nearly the year 2000 and we are supposed to be civilized. Now Bill Cosby's son is dead.

Do you realize what the Americans look like from over here? Please give up your guns. You're teaching your kids that's they're an every day way of life. Life????
Cathy F.

1/20/97
Cathy, I can't tell how much of your post is serious and how much is just the typical mindless baiting that the anti-gun crowd likes to use. Yes, America can be a violent place - but guns are not the cause of that violence. And out of the many gun owners I know, none of them wants to take the law into his own hands "like in the Far West". In fact, I don't know a soul who wants to be involved in a fatal incident of any kind. Do you really share that paranoid delusion that 40,000,000 normal, law-abiding Americans are just waiting for a chance to kill somebody? That they want to experience what it's like to take a life? Or is that just rhetoric? "We" do not want to shoot each other.

What other use does a gun have Cathy? Obviously you don't enjoy the shooting sports, but I assure you that millions of other people do. Target shooting, hunting, plinking, pin shooting, silhouette shooting, trap shooting - there are many fun and competitive sports for firearms enthusiasts. Perhaps you were not aware that shooting is an Olympic sport, and that there are literally hundreds of organizations exist in this country dedicated to shooting sports.

Perhaps you were also not aware that according to the most extensive and exhaustive research on the subject, over 2.5 million crimes in the United States are prevented each year by an armed victim. That's 2.5 million assualts, rapes, burglaries, robberies, and murders prevented by armed citizens exercising their constitutional and natural rights to protect themselves, their families, and their property. That's a lot of crime Cathy. Perhaps you were not also aware that in the United States, no law enforcement agency at any level ackowledges any responsibility for the personal safety and protection of individual citizens, except for certain elected officials and such. The people are responsible for their own safety and protection on a personal level.

Tell me this Cathy - if we are so "civilized", why has crime, particularly violent crime, increased over the last several decades? Do you believe it's because of guns? According to statistics, the percentage of people who own guns in this country has not changed in this century. The percentage has remained at around 40% from 1900 until today. There are many things that have changed in that time - the leniency and ineffectiveness of the American criminal justice system, the rise of "victimology" as an applied social science, the expanded use of parole, probation, and "alternative sentencing" that has created a revolving door in American prisons, the rise of "inmate's rights" - and several other factors that have effected the American crime rate in a negative way - but gun ownership is not one of them.

I ain't really giving a damn about the English lesson - you can't resist a violent attack with good grammer. Again something for you to think about - in states like Florida and Texas, people just like you cried about the passage of CCW laws, claiming that the streets would turn into the Old West, there'd be a shootout at every fender-bender on the streets, that people would be drawing their guns and firing every time there was a minor dispute of any kind. But that simplay did not happen Cathy. The crime rates in Florida and Texas went down after their CCW laws went into effect - Florida's crime rate went down at a time when nationwide the crime rate was going up, and Texas's crime rate drop exceeded the national crime downturn. Further, the rates of CCW license holders having their licenses revoked for cause (and both states have very strict requirements) are virtually nil. Your "Wild West" rants are just plain untrue, and all the statistice prove it.

I have enjoyed shooting for over 20 years Cathy. I started as a kid, going with my father and my next door neighbor, a real gun collector and enthusiast. I bought my first gun, a double barrelled shotgun, right after my 18th birthday, and my first handgun within weeks of my 21st. I have added many guns to the collection over the years, and not one of my guns has ever been used to hurt anybody - not one. I have used one to protect myself against an armed criminal in my home once - and if I was the kind of sicko you imagine all gun owners to be, I would have killed the guy. As it was, I didn't have to shoot him - he decided to leave peacefully rather than trade gunshots with me, and I was quite glad he made that choice. You see Cathy, I have no desire to kill anyone, to "take the law into my own hands", to be "judge, jury, and executioner", as the gun banners constantly claim about me. And the peaceful ending to that armed standoff is something that might not have happened if I were not armed, and instead left at the mercy of that criminal intruder. I am rather glad that I was able to prevent whatever he had in mind for me, although I'm sure most gun control freaks would have preferred that I instead just asked him to wait 20 minutes for the police to arrive.

Yes, Bill Cosby's son is dead, although why you put any more significance on his life than anyone else's is beyond me. He was likely killed by a repeat violent offender, back on the streets after plea-bargaining or serving out a fraction of his given sentence. Did you know that in the mid 80's, thanks to federal judge William Wayne Justice, the average "time served" for a murder conviction in the state of Texas was just 2 1/2 years? That's criminal. The people of Texas were denied their rights according to their federal and state constitutions to due process, and to be protected from violent criminals who were justly convicted in a court of law. Still today, in Texas and all across the country, the people are still being screwed by a liberal leaning criminal justice system that refuses to address the crime probem seriously. Our gun control advocates prefer to aim their attacks at law abiding gun owners instead of real killers. What we should look like to you over there is a bunch of bleeding heart idiots who won't keep violent criminals off the streets.

Yes, my children are being exposed to guns - better here than at school or somewhere else. They are learning exactly what guns are, how they work, and what they can do, and they will be far safer for it. Give up my guns? Cathy, have you ever heard the expression - "from my cold, dead hands"?

1/22/97
Calm down, let's not jump to conclusions. When one does that, one almost always jumps to the wrong ones. I must set a few things straight. I agree with you that the vast majority of people do NOT want to use their guns against other human beings, but that's what happens, isn't it? If they were all responsible, law-abiding citizens -- like you seem to be -- I wouldn't be so much for gun control. But there are too many accidents and too many shootings in the heat of an argument, for absolutely ridiculous reasons. I read it in the paper or hear it in the news constantly. There was a recent death caused by a disagreement over a passage from the Bible, for crying out loud. I'm sure the man who shot the other did not buy his gun with that in mind. It happened and was over with quickly. If he hadn't had the gun on him, he would have most likely just punched the other fellow in the nose. I of course am aware that firearms are used for sport and in the Olympics. I was even taught to shoot a gun when I was younger. I just don't like them -- I believe they are just too dangerous and too accessible.

No I was not aware of your staggering figure of 2.5 million crimes prevented because someone had a gun. I wonder how many people these would-be victims have killed or maimed. Then again, they may have just changed the attacker's mind, as you did. You set a good example for the gun owners, but that doesn't mean they all react that way. You have the statistics at your disposal; I'm sure I could hunt some up from the other viewpoint. Such as: Vancouver has a MUCH lower death-by-gunshot rate than Seattle, just on the other side of the water, because Canada has much stricter gun laws. When did I say that taking guns out of people's hands would solve America's violence? Of course the problems go deeper than that: drugs, teenage pregnancies, the corruption and/or inadequacy of the criminal justice system, the extreme egotism of many Americans (expecting the President to "fix" things instead of looking at themselves, suing each other for the most ridiculous reasons... what happened to taking and accepting responsibility?). What I'm saying is: as long as there are these deep-rooted problems in the American society, let's keep the guns out of reach. Okay, say we don't eradicate them altogether -- what about stricter purchasing laws? What is wrong with a month-long wait? What's the big hurry?

You seem to be very worked up about the minor grammar correction --- I'm not sure I'd want to be in your vicinity if you're armed, if you're going to get so bent out of shape.

I agree with you that an average of a two-and-a-half-year prison stay for a murder charge is ridiculous and inadequate. But your claim that gun control advocates' "attacks" are against the law-abiding gun owner is just plain wrong.

I agree that there is not a shoot-out at every fender-bender, but on many occasions, in L.A. for example, people have been shot for even cutting in front of someone else. If just one of these shootings could be eliminated by not having the gun so accessible, it would be worth it. For ANYONE's life, not just Ennis Cosby's. Dear me, I don't know where you got the idea I put more significance on his life than anyone else's -- I mentioned him just because his was the most recent death cited in the papers. All the other deaths sadden me just as much: the one in the argument mentioned above, the girl who was shot by her father, the Japanese exchange student who was killed because he didn't understand what "Freeze!" meant and kept advancing (only to ask directions), the childhood friend of mine who was killed by a nut in a fast-food restaurant years ago -- all of them. No I don't believe guns are the reason for the violence -- people are. But until people shape up, guns shouldn't be so easy to come by. I am not for gun elimination, just gun control. I do not really appreciate terminology such as "gun control freaks" "typical mindless baiting of the gun control crowd", my "Wild West rants" etc., but I am a peaceful person and I forgive you. Just as I can't resist a violent attack with good grammar, nor can you with verbal attacks.

Please do not put all the gun-control advocates in one barrel, as I do not put all the gun owners in another. You are not all pistol-waving, trigger-happy, blood-thirsty freaks. Many of you are law-abiding citizens, respectful of firearms and their potential dangers. Unfortunately, there are many who are not. I propose to make it harder for them to obtain firearms, because the good-citizen gun owner has no reason to be against a long wait and records search. Right?
Cathy

1/22/97
Okay Cathy, as long as we're setting things straight, allow me to clarify something from my end. I am a very flexible person, especially in the area of debating. I can debate in almost any fashion, from friendly and civil to insulting and obnoxious. I tend to give what I get, using the same style and tactics as my opponent. Perhaps you think I've done you an injustice with some of my language - well, let's see. "everyone wanting to own guns and take the law into their own hands like in the Far West". "We are supposed to be civilized". "Furthermore, what other use does a gun have than....." to kill easily in an instant at a distance. Remember those? Perhaps you don't find them insulting or demeaning, or as lumping all gun owners into one big, nasty group? How about "I'm not sure I'd want to be in your vicinity if you're armed"? That certainly sounds like you're insinuating that I'd shoot you if you were nearby - should I take that as a sarcastic insult or a parnoid delusion? I assure you Cathy, when I wrote that ONE LINE reference to your grammatical fetish, I was sitting calmly at my keyboard, not seething, foaming at the mouth, or fingering the trigger of a magnum handgun. Is that really what you imagined? And do you not think that is rather insulting to me? I guess I could respond with "Gee Cathy, the way you like to point out grammatical errors, you must be lots of fun on a date" - but that would be no more correct or relevant than your comment. Continuing - "You are not all pistol-waving, trigger-happy, blood-thirsty freaks. Many of you are law-abiding citizens, respectful of firearms and their potential dangers. Unfortunately, there are many who are not." Cathy - more than 99.9% of us gun owners are of the law abiding variety - between 40 and 60 million of us, as compared to the well less than 1/10th of one percent who are of the "blood-thirsty" type. And in case you're not aware of it, we law-abiding types do not like being lumped in with the blood-thirsty types. If I said "You gun control advocates are not all knee-jerk, socialistic, meglomaniacal control freaks. Many of you are intelligent thoughtful people who respect the views and rights of others. Unfortunately, there are many who are not" - would you find that excessive or insulting? Perhaps I didn't mean to direct the terms "gun control freaks", "typical mindless baiting of the gun control crowd", and "Wild West rants" towards ALL gun control advocates, but I was no less specific than you. I guess what I'm saying is, I'll keep it as clean and civil as you want, but you should examine your own words more closely. Now to the real stuff:

The vast majority of people don't want to use their guns against other human beings - and the vast majority of people DON'T. There is a criminal element in this country - a relatively small number of psychopathic, sociopathic, maladjusted cretins - who are responsible for a large percentage of our crime problem. One of the most dispicable cases in recent memory was in Garland Texas a few years ago. A man who had just been released on parole (oh so typical in this country) went to his ex-wife's house. He murdered his ex-wife, her infant child, and the first police officer that attempted to arrest him. So far, so ordinary (yes, ordinary). As the details came in, it turned out that the man was a 5-time convicted felon. But then the truly amazing thing was revealed - he was just 22 years old. How on earth can a person be a five time convicted felon at just 22 years of age? How on earth can such a person be out on parole? But that's the reality in this country right now, thanks to those who oppose using the prison system to keep violent criminals off our streets. As far as the "fly off the handle" types, they are an extreme rarity. For every person that just goes off one day and kills for no good reason, there are millions more that do not. It is offensive to suggest that any person who owns a firearm might kill their neighbor over a minor squabble.

In the 2.5 million crimes prevented each year by armed civilians, 90% of the time no shots are fired. I think this tends to prove my statement that the vast majority of gun owners don't want to ever shoot anybody. If it is possible to prevent the crime without firing - if just the sight or sound of the weapon are enough to do the job, the intended victim has accomplished his purpose - to defend and protect himself and his property. I've known many people who keep and some that have used a gun for home and self defense - but not one that has ever shot somebody. Or that ever wants to. However, more criminals are LAWFULLY shot and killed each year by civilians than by policeman, which goes to proving what I said about people being responsible for their own defense. The cop isn't there when you need him - but perhaps your gun will be.

Ah, waiting periods again. Cathy, could you please cite one study, one survey, that shows that waiting periods will save lives? I wish you would, because I have never heard of one - and with anti-gun advocacy being what it is, I'm sure we'd have all heard of such a study if it existed. Cathy, I have been reading the papers for years, following the crime problem, and in all that time I've heard of ONE instance where someone legally obtained a firearm and used it in a criminal act on that same day. Now I'm sure it has happened more than once, but it is obviously quite rare - the exception rather than the rule. Now you might say that "even if it saves one life it's worth it" - but what if it COSTS a life as well? I have heard of two cases where a person tried to buy a gun legally because they were being threatened by a former husband or boyfriend - and was attacked and killed before the waiting period was up and they could take possession of the gun. There are other reasons to oppose waiting periods too Cathy. Of course to you they are no big deal - you are not a gun enthusiast. But I have been denied opportunites to buy firearms because of waiting periods, because the seller would not be anywhere in the vicinity a week later to give me my gun. I have since remedied that situation by getting a CCW, which means I no longer have to wait to buy a handgun - but that's a lot to go through - and a lot of needless cost - just to get around a law that serves no meaningful purpose. Further, the waiting periods have NOT done the good that the Clinton administration claims. They claim that over 60,000 "criminals" have been denied firearms because of the Brady waiting period and background check - but that it UNTRUE. True, over 60,000 people were initially denied a handgun purchase - but the vast majority of them were incorrect denials - traffic tickets, names similar to a criminal's name, and the like. These people DID get their handgun after clearing matters up. The Clinton gang refuses to address the question - if over 60,000 criminals were prevented from buying handguns by the Brady check, how come there have only been EIGHT convictions for people criminally attempting to purchase firearms? It is a FELONY to attempt to purchase a firearm if you are legally disqualified - so if 60,000 people tried to illegally purchase handguns, there should have been 60,000 arrests and convictions for this felony offense - instead there have been just eight. Perhaps you'd like to take a stab at explaining that one Cathy.

Also, thanks in large part to the efforts of the NRA, though their many educational programs including the award winning Eddie Eagle program, accidental shootings have been on a 20 year decline. As I said in my initial posts on Time's pages, education has been very helpful in reducing the number of firearms related accidents. In fact, I believe I read recently that they are at their lowest point ever. The truth is that ignorance and unfamiliarity are as responsible for firearms accidents as carelessness. Kids find and play with their daddy's gun because it something new and fun, something they don't understand or appreciate. Nearly every accident I read about bears this out.

I am aware of the Vancouver-Seattle study, and what it shows is more the cultural difference between the US and Canada than anything else. How much have you read of that study? I'm looking for the entire thing on-line. I do know that everyone has stayed far away from that study, at least publicly, because of the racial angle of it. I won't comment on it too much until I have it in whole and ready to be dissected.

One more thing - "But your claim that gun control advocates' "attacks" are against the law-abiding gun owner is just plain wrong" - is wrong. Criminals are already barred from owning firearms - and from using them to commit crimes - but they do it anyway. And they are not punished for it (the NRA has been bashing Clinton because during his administration, prosecutions for federal firearms violations had dropped over 20%). The laws that are passed only effect the already law abiding citizen, not the criminal. Criminals are willing to commit crimes like murder, rape, robbery - of what consequence is violating a gun control law? Who will these laws effect except for the law abiding? In addition, many in the gun control crowd have made it known that they do very much intend to ban ALL firearms from private hands. Charlie Schumer (who is a liar and a jackass), Diane Feinstein, Barbara Boxer, Sarah Brady and HCI, Major Owens, and many many more have made it clear that the goal is the total elimination of our right to bear arms. Janet Reno has called the good old American deer rifle a "sniper rifle", "the most dangerous weapon in America", even though they are almost NEVER used in crime, and virtually no one in this country commits a murder with a rifle at long range. It IS an attack on us law abiding gun owners, plain and simple.

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