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ON REASON & FAITH

/ Subject: INTERNET DAILY CHAPEL (9-5-99) /
/ NG: alt.religion.christianity / 9Sept99 /
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        Jesus says: Know that which lies before your eye,
        and that which is hidden from you will be revealed
        to you. For nothing is hidden that will not be made
        manifest, nor buried that will not be raised up.
             [ 'The Gospel of Thomas', Logion 5 ]
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> On 5Sept99 the shameless spammer and crossposter Bill McGinnis
> <bmcgin@patriot.net> (after having taken offense at the cyber-
> prophet for ridiculing his foolish thoughts on the author of
> Hebrews) responds with the following claim: <snip>
> Reason Is Unable To Grasp The Higher Realities
> Human reason is unable to grasp the higher realities, because
> reason is grounded in our very limited sensory experience.
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 textman answers: Dear Bill, that is incorrect. You are confusing two
very different things: science and reason. Science derives its raw
data from sensory experience, to be sure; but reason as such involves
all aspects of human life, for it is the way we think about *all*
things (NOT just empirical existence).
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> The origin of the universe, the purpose of life, the nature of God,
> the nature of good and evil are impossible for reason to comprehend.
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 This too is incorrect. By reasoning about the nature of the universe
cosmologists have discovered that our 15 billion year old universe
had its origins in what is commonly called the Big Bang (the first
historical event in our universe). In the same way, the mere fact
that we are able to talk about "the purpose of life, the nature of
God, the nature of good and evil" clearly implies that these weighty
matters are NOT impossible for reason to comprehend.
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> Reason is very capable of grasping simple conceptual relationships,
> such as "if X, then Y." Reason's crowning achievement, which is
> Science, is capable of manipulating these simple conceptual
> relationships to yield stunning progress in our understanding and
> control of our material world. Through Science, we can fly in the
> air and beam pictures around the world instantly. We can do many
> things that earlier people could not do, all because of Science.
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 And the enterprise of science began over 25 centuries ago when
the early Greek philosophers first began to take a long, hard, and
dispassionate view at the world, and to reason about the things that
they saw. They did not limit their thinking to mathematics and the
so-called 'hard-sciences', but rather explored the entire range of
human being (including our moral and spiritual life).
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> However, reason is incapable of grasping the higher realities,
> just as your dog is unable to grasp Accounting.
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 Your dog is unable to grasp accounting because she seriously lacks
the necessary equipment (ie. a large brain) to generate conceptual
thought. Science is unable grasp spiritual realities because it is
limited to the perception of phenomenal and empirical realities.
Reason, however, IS able to grasp the higher realities, and through
language is even able to attempt to describe them. If this were not
the case, then none of the mystics and seers of ages past would have
been able to set down in writing the things that they have seen (see
4X 'The Cloud of Unknowing').
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> The higher realities are beyond its capabilities.
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 The mystical literature of thousands of saints and holy men bears
witness to the falseness of your claim.
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> For a thorough, systematic discussion of the limitations of reason,
> please refer to the classic philosophical work, "The Critique Of
> Pure Reason," by Immanuel Kant. A copy is available at
> http:/www.knuten.liu.se/~bjoch509/works/kant/cr_pure_reason.txt.
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 You must really be some kind of a sadist to drop that particular
philosophical bomb on the People of God. I strongly urge our Readers
NOT to harm themselves by trying to read that awful and horrendous
book! ... Moreover, you are certainly not a Kantian, Bill; so just
what exactly are you trying to pull?
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> If you try to understand the higher realities based on reason,
> you are like the blind man who follows another man just as blind.
> As Jesus explained ... "And he spake a parable unto them, Can the
> blind lead the blind? shall they not both fall into the ditch?"
> (Luke 6:39 / KJV)
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 Now here is a prime example of how exegesis can be used to foster the
abuse of scripture. Jesus is NOT talking about 'the rational animal'
here, he is talking about people who are ethically and spiritually
blind. Indeed, since the Logos is of its very nature the rational and
coherent element in the cosmos, it would be self contradictory for
Jesus to advise against the use of reason. The Lord himself has
given us our rational nature, and since we are made in the image and
likeness of God, it would be a sin of the most extreme type to deny
or reject our reasoning powers and capacities!
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> The higher realities are revealed by God directly to man, in the
> form of divine revelation. We cannot get them by means of our
> own understanding.
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 No, we can't. And that's because we are limited, fallible and sinful
creatures who would much rather approach the world from a biased,
selfish, and self-serving point of view. Most of us are simply
incapable of seeing ourselves and the world from a disinterested and
detached vantage point such that we are able to think clearly (reason)
about all the things in our lives. ... By God's grace and providence
we are given the revelation of truth, but we must use our under-
standing to the best of our ability in order to appropriate it,
and apply it to our daily lives!
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> "Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto
> thine own understanding. In all thy ways acknowledge him,
> and he shall direct thy paths." (Proverbs 3:5-6 KJV) <snip>
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 Yes, and he shall also direct us to the divine understanding, the
divine reason, of the Eternal Logos who emptied himself of all
divinity, and became man so that we may know the truth about who we
are, and what are to do in this life! What we accept by faith we
apply by reason. Thus there is no conflict between faith and reason.
We require both in order to be the mature sons and daughters we are
meant to be ...
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           the one who makes Kant obsolete -  textman  ;>
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/ Subject: Re: On Reason and Faith /
/ NG: alt.religion.christianity / 12Sept99 /
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>> On 9Sept99 the confounding one <textman@my-deja.com> wrote:
>>                        ON REASON & FAITH
>> <snip remainder for sake of brevity and clarity>
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> On 11Sept99 Adam <man@thetruth.itgo.com> replies: In the begining
> God created heaven and earth. This is the first sentence in the
> bible book that is causing confusion among atheist or the one who
> believe in science.
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 Dear Adam, if the Bible is the cause of much confusion among faith-
less fools and unbelievers, then that is very well and good. Indeed,
that is as it *should* be! For spiritual things are spiritually
discerned; and so seem as foolishness to the proud and the
arrogant of heart.
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> The simple question is, God says he has created heaven and earth
> and for this, is there any proof?
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 The fact that the Lord's own revelation (ie. the Word of God) bears
witness to this testimony is sufficient unto the People of God.
Believers do not require proof of this  claim; neither do we question
this seemingly absurd idea. Rather, we simply and humbly accept that
God created heaven and earth because our God (the Lord God Almighty)
is the Good Creator of *all things* (as well as being our Savior and
Redeemer) ... We owe our lives, and every other good thing in our
lives, to They who made and gave them unto us. Therefore, our response
to all this is to praise the goodness and abundance of our generous
Lord, and to always give The Heavenly Father thanks for all the
blessings which we may enjoy in our short walk through this
otherwise painful and confusing life.
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> The only supposed evidence is that this god is said to be an
> Almighty. In that case we just have to disprove his Almightiness.
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 Go right ahead, Mr Adam ...  And many good luck to thee!
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> And if it is possible to disprove his almightiness from
> the bible itself then it's all over.
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 If you say so.
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> Here see: The letter from Jude 1.6: "Remember the angels who did
> not stay within the limits of their proper authority, but abadoned
> their own dwelling place; they are bound with eternal chains in
> the darkness below, where god is keeping them for that great
> DAY on which they will be condemned."
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 The prophet Judas is addressing a situation where there was much
loose talk about the angels (or Aeons), and their place in the affairs
of humankind. [See the early gnostic-Christian literature for details]
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> The angels who did not stay within heaven, god bound them in
> eternal chains in the darkness below (ie., hell).
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 You're equating of "the darkness below" with "hell" is an
assumption (or conclusion) on your part; and one that is
not justified by the text of Jude.
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> So these are the fallen angels or the evil spirits.
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 You seen to think that Judas is referring to the totality of "fallen
angels or evil spirits", but it might be better to suppose that Judas
is singling out a very specific group of rebellious angels; (ie. those
who rejected God's authority and design for their lives in the very
beginnings of the great rebellion that occurred long before the start
of recorded history).
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> But when Jesus travelled in Palestine it is said in the bible
> itself that he had cured many people who were possesed by
> these fallen angels alias evil spirits or demons.
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 I see no great problem here. These are other dark angels and spirits
more or less loosely associated with (or attached to) the leaders of
the great rebellion (ie. those who are bound in darkness). There are
many types and varieties of angels, spirits, and demons in this world.
Some are good to human beings, others care nothing for us (and may
indeed harbor much hatred and hostility toward us). True Believers
have nothing to fear from these latter type; for the Lord is our
salvation and redemption. Thus we do not fear those who have power
over the body and the things of the flesh; but we fear only those who
attack or corrupt our Faith, or those who trouble our convictions and
beliefs with disabling doubts and fruitless worryings.
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> If the so-called God of christianity has from the beginning chained
> the so-called fallen angels, THEN HOW THE HELL DID THEY COME UP TO
> THE SURFACE WHERE WE DWELL !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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 Maybe there are many who make this world a part of 'the darkness
below' that the prophet Judas speaks of. Or maybe there are many who
call up these chained ones by the power of their iniquity. Or maybe
these spirits and demons come from other worlds; drawn to this plane
by the sin and faithlessness of those who arrogantly reject the
truth, and fear all the wrong things!
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> Answer to this if not we will -- Adam
> http://thetruth.itgo.com
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 Dear Adam, is that a treat or a promise?  :)
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   the one who fears not the powers and principalities - textman  ;>
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P.S.  "If you cannot listen to the answers, why do
       you inconvenience me with questions?" -- Orac
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P.P.S.  "'Leaves of Grass' my ass!"  -- Homer Simpson
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textman
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