GENERALIZING
FOLLOWERS
Icono Clast
Date:
2002-08-01
In response to another, I said:
“. . . The Next Generation
Swing Dance Club has been having its monthly dances . . . at a studio that, on most
Saturdays, features Ballroom dancing . . . At about 9:45, the
focus changes from Swing to Ballroom. Most, but fortunately not all, of
the dancers also change.”
MMMThe
dancers are a mix of International and American (such as I) styles.
These Next
Generation dances have afforded me the opportunity to confirm an
observation
that I thought I'd made but couldn't really confirm;
Swing Followers are better than other
Followers because they:
• present a more comfortable frame with better
compression and resistance
• apparently
realize that “it's just dancing” so have fewer hangups about being
• close to their Leader
• have a much lesser tendency to anticipate (if at all)
• have greater trust in their Leader's skill
• have greater trust that their Leader will protect them
• are better at back-leading for the sake of safety
• are much quicker to adapt to traffic-avoidance “mistakes”
My attention became sharply focused on these revelations the first time
The Next Generation Swing Dance Club had its dance at that studio. It
was during a Waltz mixer that I was astonished at the differences
between
the dancers. Although it was my first dance with a few of the Followers,
I'd been dancing with many, if not most, of
them over many years. I apparently had just accepted their Following
for what it was without comparing it to others.
MMMAlthough I'd had the suspicion for years, I don't recall
having ever mentioned it to anyone nor having had such an excellent
opportunity to confirm that suspicion. But I didn't jump to the
conclusions above:
I've reöbserved and re-confirmed my observations with a
great many Followers over the many months that The Next Generation
Swing
Dance Club has had its dances at that studio. I can therefore
confidently cry:
Gimme a Swing Follower regardless of the dance the music dictates!
And I'll even generalize that Swing Followers are better than other
Followers regardless of the dance their Leader chooses to do.
. . . Sometimes I’ll just listen but mostly the best dances are like
relationships, you can finish your partner’s sentence because you’re on
the same page.
– Katie Lyon, Southern
California The
Mighty Flyer's Volume III, Issue 6; June, 2004
_________________________________________________
From: Emily Trites (swangoem@*.com)
2002-08-02
Icono Clast wrote:
> Swing Followers are better than other
Followers
Amen to that! Having been a follower at one time or another of a
multitude of partner dances, I can't begin to count the number of
shocked and ecstatic grins on the faces of men who have little faith in
the ability of the
average "newbie."
MMMThanks to all I have learned on the fly in WCS, I can
survive virtually any ballroom/country/salsa/hustle dance with relative
aplomb. What's more, by the second time I showed my timid little
face at an Argentine Tango function here in Sacramento, I landed the
partner all of the other
tangueras were jockeying for. We have been dancing 3+ years
together,
have done exhibitions and shows, and I honestly believe I owe the
majority
of my swift rise through the ranks to the more than solid foundation
offered by WCS. When we started, he was enchanted by my ability
to hold my own weight AND keep my balance as we
whirled around the floor through a wild gauntlet of
bodies. The cool thing is, he continues to be every bit as amazed
today as he was all that time ago.
MMMNext
time you feel utterly frustrated by the thought of yet another
compression excersise, or think you're going to retch if you ever hear
one more discussion
of center and balance, please think again. There is little else
in the dance world that offers so very much!
I love us too!!!
________________________________________________
From: Lusty Wench (lusty@*.org)
2002-08-02 10:16:01
Emily Trites <swangoem@*.com> wrote:
> Thanks to all I have learned on the fly in
WCS
You left out the part where you mention that you are truly an amazing
dancer.
___________________________________________________
From: Carlie J. Coats, Jr., Ph.D. (carlie@*.com) 2006-07-27
> Swing Poop said:
> [West Coast Swing Followers] have a better basic understanding of
>
dance that enables them to learn other dances more easily... the
average
> learned WCS dancer learning other dances...a faster learning
curve.
I'm a ballroom dancer (I compete Int'l Std, have been dancing
ballroom the last thirty years .
. .) and I agree with Swingpoop
here. Case in point: I
danced a bolero with an accomplished WCS dancer a while back. She
had never
danced bolero before – but followed – beautifully! – all the way
through Gold syllabus and some Open stuff as well.
— Carlie J. Coats, Jr., Ph.D.
______________________________________________________
From: Jerry Cipriano, Santa Monica
(jerryci@*.net) 2002-08-02
Emily & Icono Clast,
MMMI partially agree with you and I am very
happy with the frame,
resistance, and adaptability of the average WCS follower.
However, I have encountered enough exceptions to cause me to wonder if
a general rule such as you advocate is true. I have danced with a
number of women who have ballroom or ballet backgrounds whom I thought
were exceptional dancers and easily adapted to new styles. I've
had a regular WCS and salsa partner for years who was a very good
dancer, though not professional. She made a quantum improvement
in some areas of following and balance when she learned Tango.
MMMPerhaps it is an individual
thing. Emily — I
don't know you, but based on other postings, you are an excellent
dancer. Perhaps the positive reactions you got from leaders
would have happened regardless of your WCS background. Perhaps
it was simply because you are very talented. I had a hustle
partner
in 1979/1980 named Adele Canetti who had lots of training (ballet,
jazz), but she would have been an incredible
follower regardless of her ballet background. Her abilities were
due to individual talent. Nancy Beth Orr is incredibly
talented not only at styling and performing, but also as a versatile
and adaptable follower. Besides being schooled in WCS and hustle,
she is also extensively trained in ballet. Her abilities are due
to individual talent more than anything else. I danced swing with
Joby Vasquez of Salsa Brava at last New Year's Palm Springs
dance. Joby has a jazz and salsa (of course) background. I
had to
twist her arm because she said she had never danced swing before.
She danced and followed phenomenally well. I love dancing with
Joby. After that dance, there was a mile-long line of WCS men
asking her to
dance. Joby is a great follower and she had no WCS training at
all. Again, there is the factor of individual talent. I
could
continue on with the list to include many top advanced and professional
dancers, but the point is made.
MMMIn summary, I wholeheartedly agree that WCS training
is invaluable for followers – and so is ballet, ballroom, tango and
perhaps jazz and salsa. Many people without a ballet background might
not understand the inclusion of ballet. Ballet emphasizes the
importance of a strong and proper frame MORE THAN ANY OTHER DANCE.
________________________________
From: mcl2@*.edu Date: 2002-08-05
"Jerry C." writes:
> In summary, I wholeheartedly agree that
WCS training is invaluable for
> followers – and so is ballet, ballroom,
tango and perhaps jazz and salsa.
> Many people without a ballet
background might not understand the inclusion
> of ballet. Ballet emphasizes the
importance of a strong and proper frame
>> MORE THAN ANY OTHER DANCE.
I ahve to disagree here.
MMMI have studied a lot of modern and some ballet and I know a lot of
dancers from
the "arts dance" community.
MMMSo of them are really great followers, but a lot of
performance educated dancers never learn to follow well, because they
never are willing or able to share the frame.
MMMI have found that when introducing a new
ballet-modern person to couple dancing it helps to mention the
words "very gentle -Graham type contracture" and emphasize that the
balance is
shared with another person. It also helps to point out that (in
lindy at least and I think other couple dances) that you never
completely extend your elbow.
MMMI do Lindy and ECS, and I know these are less
extended than WCS, so there may be some differences here.
MMMIt is a measure of how far couple dancing is from
ballet and modern, that even though there are profound diffeerences
between the two , to a couple dancer a modern background is pretty
much the same as a ballet background.
MMMI have seen some truly horrid couple dancers with
degrees in dance.
— Michael Young
Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania
_____________________________________
From: Mikalai (mik_ka@*.com)
2002-08-05
<mcl2@*.edu>
"Jerry C." writes:
> So of them are really great followers, but
a lot of performance educated dancers never
> never learn to follow well, because they
never are willing or able to share the frame.
...or they are unwilling to assume this ridiculous unnatural posture
the leaders forcing them into? :-) Please be careful with negative
generalizations.
MMMIn my very long history of dancing with ladies of
non-ballroom dance training I've noticed that the most fundamental root
of trouble with them (if it happens to be) is their arrogance to assume
that since they are so good in, say, ballet, they don't need any
beginner's private ballroom lessons and jump right into advanced.
MMMOnce a lady is smart enough to recognize differences
in techniques and willing to spend some money and efforts to cope with
them, she learns lightning fast. And her formal training (in this
infamous ballet :-), as well as an acquired habit to WORK HARD, helps
her immensely.
MMM(Even if this training
was
only because her loving mommy forced her intowhen she was in her
tiny-weeny ages.)
> Jerry C. writes:
>> Ballet emphasizes the importance of a
strong and proper frame
>> MORE THAN ANY OTHER DANCE.
Yes, it is, but most important of all, ballet training provides you
with the AWARENESS of your body: posture, movement, accents,
etc., (and all
this in relation to music, partner(s), choreographer's moood :-).
MMMI realized for myself that the body awareness is a
key in dancing after a curious event when our university wrestling team
decided to take ballroom lessons. To everyone's surprize these chunks
of hard meat and wide bones were progressing much faster than the rest
of male half (actually, male one third :-). We decided this was because
they learned how to move with respect to other person in contact, be
AWARE of this other person "on the subconscious level", and be aware of
their own body parts.
MMMIt could have been a staticstical glitch, but it did
impress all of us.
— miklai
________________________________
From: mcl2@*.edu Date: 2002-08-05
Mikalai writes:
> <mcl2@*.edu> wrote:
>> "Jerry C." writes:
>> So of them are really great followers,
but a lot of performance educated dancers
>> never learn to follow well, because they never are willing or able to share the frame.
>
> ...or they are unwilling to assume this
ridiculous unnatural
> posture the leaders forcing them into? :-)
I'm not sure what you are talking about here. I certainly never
try to force a woman into any posture, unnatural or not. I was
just talking about the frame for various kinds of couple dancing.
> Please be careful with negative generalizations.
I was.
not overgeneralized. I believe my statement was accurate and
properly qualified.
> In my very long history of dancing with ladies of non-ballroom
dance training I've
> noticed that the most fundamental root of trouble with them (if it
happens to be)
> is their arrogance to assume that since they are so good in, say,
ballet, they don't
> need any beginner's private ballroom lessons and jump right into
advanced.
I was not talking about ballroom, which always strikes me as (you say)
"ridiculous unatural," but that is just how it strikes me. It
certainly has postures that are similar to ballet.
> Once a lady is smart enough to recognize differences in techniques
and willing
> to spendsome money and efforts to cope
with them, she learns lightning fast.
This would certainly be true. I was thinking of things like
simple swing and things like contra dance in
which spending money is not a hard-prescribed part of the process. The unwillingness of some formally
trained
dancers to recognize they need to learn some
for couple dances is exactly what I was talking about, though.
MMMAnd her formal training (in this infamous
ballet :-), as well as an acquired habit to WORK HARD, helps her immensely.
MMMI don't do competition, and in social dancing
the next pitfall that can hit ballet dancers (after that pitfall of
believing that they do not need to learn it) is this: the
acquired habit to work hard at dancing ("This isn't supposed to be
fun") can seriously interfere with good social dancing.
> (Even if this training was only because
her loving mommy forced her into when
> she was in her tiny-weeny ages.) partner(s), choreographer's moood :-).
>
> I realized for myself that the body awareness is a key in dancing
after a
> curious event when our university wrestling team decided to take
ballroom
> lessons. To everyone's surprize these chunks of hard meat and wide
bones
> were progressing much faster than the rest of male half (actually,
male one
> third :-). We decided this was because they learned how to move
with respect
> to other person in contact, be AWARE of this other person "on the
> subconscious level", and be aware of their own body parts.
>
> It could have been a staticstical glitch, but it did impress all
of us.
I don't believe it was a glitch. They not
only have body awareness, they have movement leaders and
followers. Since their training is to attempt to do the former
and avoid the latter, they might be considerably slower at learning to
follow.
MMMI think of taking Aikido and I fanasize that I
would be fairly fast at learning it, since I already know how to lead.
MMMI was attacked in a bar once by a drunk.
he could not hit me and tried to wrestle some. I easily deflected his
attack. I was quite frightened at first, because I have not been
in a fight since Jr high, decades ago.
MMMSomewhere in the middle I thought "Good thing
this guy doesn't know how to lead."
MMMThe wrestlers were probably astonished at the
idea of having willing followers. The crudest of them
might naturally consider things like "I could take them down right now"
which are inappropriate to consider even in the most cut throat dance
competitions.
— Michael Young Pittsburgh, PA
_______________________________________
From: Brick (brick@*.com) Date:
2002-08-05
>>> a lot of performance educated dancers never learn to
follow well,
>>> because they never are willing or able to share the frame.
I have introduced several " theater" dancers I've met in Jazz,
Ballet & Modern class to WCS, and I stumbled across something that
is a good indication of "follow tallent."
MMMI ask the (ballet, jazz, modern....) dancer
how they remember the coreography for their combinations. Do they
"count" the rhythm (one, two, three & four), or do they "sing" the
rhythm (dah, dah, dee-dee-dah)?
MMMThe ones that count have a hard time following, and
the ones that sing seem to take to it naturally. This might have
something to do with "thinking vs feeling the music" but that is just a
guess.
MMM I don't have a huge sample, but so far this is
batting 1000.
MMMAll IMHO, YMMV.
______________________________________________
From: Ron Nicholson (rhn@*.com) Date: 2002-08-08
> mcl2@*t.edu wrote:
> "Mikalai" writes:
>> ...or they are unwilling to assume this
ridiculous unnatural
>> posture the leadersforcing them into? :-)
>
> I'm not sure what you are talking about
here. I certainly never
> try to force a woman into any posture, unnatural or not. I was
just
> talking about the frame for various kinds of couple dancing.
Different schools of dance value completely different things.
What you think of as a normal dance frame is something completely
unnatural and uncomfortable to some ballet trained dancers . . . but
once they learn to appreciate movement as a
couple, they adapt to this strange posture quite rapidly, since they
have much greater awareness of the muscles in their torso and arms than
complete non-dancers.
IMHO. YMMV.
_______________________________________
From:
Richard Maurer (rcpb1_maurer@*.com)
Icono Clast said:
> Swing Followers are better than other
Followers because:
I wonder if swing was the first dance you felt comfortable with?
All the above can still be true of course, but
the first developed dance is likely to affect
the
idea of "most comfortable frame" and the "best
amount of connection and damping".
Richard Maurer Sunnyvale
_______________________________
From:
Icono Clast Date: 2002-08-04
Richard Maurer wrote:
> Icono Clast said:
> > Swing Followers are better than other
Followers because:
>
> I wonder if swing was the first dance you felt comfortable with?
Although I don't remember, probably not as I
learned Swing a few years after m'mother taught me to Waltz, FoxTrot,
and dance Eastern Swing.
> All the above can still be true of course, but the first developed
> dance is likely to affect the idea of "most comfortable frame" and
> the "best amount of connection and damping".
Perhaps I didn't state clearly that the frame while dancing Waltz with
a Swing dancer is what focused my attention to make careful
observations before stating my conclusions. I don't remember when the
first Next Generation dance at this particular studio was, but it was
that night that the spark was struck to make
careful observations even though I thought I had long been aware of the
apparent phenomenon.
______________________________________________
From: Michael Young (mcl2@*.edu) Date:
2002-08-09
Ron Nicholson writes:
> Different schools of dance value
completely different things. What
> you think of as a normal dance frame is
something completely unnatural
> and uncomfortable to some ballet
trained dancers . . .
Well, yes, but if it takes years of training to make something
"unnatural", I'm skeptical of the use of that
word.
> . . . but once they learn to appreciate movement as a
couple, . . .
Aye. There's the rub. Some pick up couple movement quickly (in the first minute or so). Others
can couple dance foryears and never begin to appreciate movement as a
couple.
(it also took a few years for *me* to begin to understand "frame".)
It's hard to know what percentage have this problem, because if they
pick up the frame they become great dancers and
are not easy to pick out as someone with ballet
training. If they never learn about the frame, they are always identifiable as "ballet dancers"
> . . . they adapt to this strange
posture quite rapidly, since they have much greater
> awareness of the muscles in their torso and arms than
complete
non-dancers.
Yes, they can move with astonishing finesse.
— Michael Young
Table of Contents
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31 VII 5 — 6.0
11 III 5 —11.1