Blackthorne Software Discussion Forum: Seller's Assistant Release: Announcing the eBay Seller's Assistant Products

By John Slocum (jslocum) on Wednesday, February 07, 2001 - 01:56 pm:

For the record, AA Pro Version 1.26 is the current released version. That is the version that you have all paid for. Version 1.27 is currently in beta and is downloadable by anyone who has paid for Version 1.26.

The new version when released will be the latest beta of the 1.27. So the major upgrade does not simply constitute the differences between 1.27 Beta and the released version, it constitutes the differences between 1.26 and the new version. The 1.26 version does not include the multiview, scheduled listings, batch listings, unattended listings, the Filter Studio, the improved email studio and many other new features.

I see a lot of people mentioning that the program never came out of beta, and that is incorrect. Version 1.26 was a full release that was out of beta. There will always be a released version and a beta version of the software. Those of you using 1.27 are using the current beta version.

John

By John Slocum (jslocum) on Tuesday, February 06, 2001 - 04:50 pm:

As many of you know, we have been working on new versions of both of our products. I am pleased to finally be able to formally announce these products. I know that many of you are going to have questions, so we will be manning this board for the next several days to answer any questions you may have.

The first thing to do would be to make sure you have read the "Letter from John" at http://www.blackthornesw.com/bthome/SALetter.htm and the Frequently Asked Questions page at http://www.blackthornesw.com/bthome/SAFaq.htm.

We plan to do everything possible to make this transition as smooth as possible.

I would like to take this opportunity to thank you all for your patience and customer loyalty while we prepared the new versions. Your support means more than you know.

Thank You,

John

By John Beaumont on Tuesday, February 06, 2001 - 05:39 pm:

Folks: I find it unacceptable to "rent" computer software. I began with the Classic version and am now using the Pro version of the program. Overall this cost me $200.00. The program has had its bugs and I thought John and his team delt with them on a timely basis. Now eBay comes along and buys the company - we are informed that nothing will changed (guess someone lied). Well folks, I have no intention of renting computer software (this goes for our friends at MicroSoft too). Of course I understand that I don't "own" the programs, but I did purchase a license to use them. If I choose to use it without the purchase any furter upgrades (when a company offers a "major" upgrade - not bug fixes) that's my decission. I appreciate the fact that you'll give me a years grace period before asking me to spend money to rent your software but I would hope, by that time, I'll have found another piece of software that will do the same thing. It bothers me that greed appears to come into the decission - it may be true that Blackthorne Software is the most popular on eBay but it was partly because we users allowed the "Blackthorne Credit" to appear on every item we posted that helped the company grow. It is this credit that most likely made eBay take notice of Blackthornes popularity and purchase the company. To now ask users to pay a yearly fee, which costs as much as the software license did in the first place, is just unacceptable. John, I'm glad the company is doing well, but I think you'll find the software rental scheme will force your loyal users to find another alternative to AAClassic/AAPro. I'll look forward to the upgrade but in the meantime I'll be looking to find another auction listing program.

By Cindy Stone (cindy) on Tuesday, February 06, 2001 - 05:48 pm:

John,

I have read and printed both of the above links. I understand that this is a business decision and think that you are being most generous with present users, which everyone on this discussion group is (I think). I also have been reading much lately about "leased software" as proposed by Microsoft and their newly announced XP versions.

To me, this goes far toward the leased software concept. When I have upgraded a program in the past, I have been afforded a considerable discount as a previous user, but I owned it, and was entitled to service patches, minor upgrades, etc. When a major upgrade was released, I had the choice of paying the upgrade price or remaining with the version that I had. Example: Windows 95 - OEM; upgrade to Windows 98 - $79.00 or $89.00 (can't remember); upgrade to Windows 98SE - $10.00 + 9.95 s/h. In all cases, it was my choice, based on the features included and my personal assessment if I needed it or not.

In reading your information, it appears that after the first year (previous user consideration), I will be "re-buying" the program on an annual basis at just a few dollars shy of current retail for AAPro. I understand the high cost of program development and the need to generate revenue to continue the growth process.

As someone who is not a "power seller" and averages 10-20 auction per week - mostly unique items - this gives me much to reflect upon. I really like AAPro and have recommended it to many people who offer similar number/type of items as we do. It has definitely given me the opportunity to increase my sales in less time than doing it manually.

Please do not take these comments as criticism - as I said in the beginning, this is a business decision - but if the new pricing policy is not carved in "stone", I ask that you reconsider and give people like me (control freak) an option.

Thanks for reading,

Cindy

By Shirley Alexander on Tuesday, February 06, 2001 - 05:48 pm:

to: John Beaumont:

I TOTALLY agree with you on this! I just received notice of the new FEE I will be now paying to keep software I spent a LARGE amount of money to purchase up to date! I am EXTREMELY disgusted with the whole thing and will certainly be looking for another software also! When I spent my $200.00 to buy the program, they didn't warn me that soon it would be costing me $200.00 A YEAR!!

By Michelle Hart on Tuesday, February 06, 2001 - 05:49 pm:

I think charging a monthly fee to use the software is wrong. I love the Classic Version that I currently have and have always appreciated the upgrades to make it run better. However, I have already "bought" the CD....why on earth would you start charging me a monthly fee? I suupose we all should have known that once Ebay got their hands on you there would be a catch and they would want more money out of us. I, too, will start looking for another auction program to use once the "free for a year" is up. I'm sorry to see that Blackthorne Software has decided to let greed get the better of them.

By John Slocum (jslocum) on Tuesday, February 06, 2001 - 05:50 pm:

John,

Please let me explain the rationale a little further. The new versions of the software are major upgrades and had we stuck with the traditional model of software delivery, we would have charged for this upgrade, and then charged for an upgrade to version 3 next year. In either case, you are paying to keep your software up to date. In the new model, we have to release upgrades more frequently than once a year, so we have adjusted the payment plan to match. I hope this helps you understand our logic, and I hope you give the new version a chance first. I think you'll be glad you did.

Thanks,

John

By Brian Dyet on Tuesday, February 06, 2001 - 05:50 pm:

Please, not eBay customer support! They have yet to be trained on their own product and certainly will not be qualified to answer questions regarding this product. The only thing eBay customer support knows how to do is send out canned email responses to the most popular questions regardless of the depth or content of the actual question that has been sent to customer support. Please forward a copy of the canned email response that eBay customer support will be using everytime we ask for any help with this new "Sellers Assistant" product. That will enable me to print out the canned email now and not have to waste any of my time emailing eBay customer support in the future with any important questions I may have about the new "SA" product. Has anyone ever received anything other than a canned response from eBay customer support? Has anyone (other than a brand new eBay user) ever actually received any helpful answers from eBay customer support? I just hope I never need any assistance with the new product, because at $15+ dollars a month, a toll-free support phone number should be provided to all users.

By John Slocum (jslocum) on Tuesday, February 06, 2001 - 05:54 pm:

Brian,

I just wanted to note that eBay support is not replacing our support, it is simply augmenting it. We are keeping the same support people we have had and they will continue to support the product. We now just have more help doing it.

John

By Kevin Keith on Tuesday, February 06, 2001 - 06:11 pm:

I too think you are cheating those of us that have paid in full for this software. Our options now are pay a rental fee for what we thought we had already purchased, or we can choose not to, and forgo the upgrades, which inevitably renders the software useless. The year free, as far as I am concerned, is a token gratuity. Ebay seems to think we are all growing filthy rich from their auction site. Another ultimate low in finding ways to bleed the user out of even more money. I'm very disappointed and can tell you I will not be paying for your upgrade when the time comes.

By bevrec on Tuesday, February 06, 2001 - 06:25 pm:

I agree with the people against your new policy. I have spent over $200 to use the programs and I am satisfied with their performance, but I will not pay another $200 per year to keep using them. I think you have "breached my contract" with you to keep my software current and usable on the ebay auction site, and will join any legal class action suit against your company if this concept is pursued and adopted.
Jack Dreznes

By Michael Eastick (meastick) on Tuesday, February 06, 2001 - 06:54 pm:

The beginning of the end of both eBay and BlackthorneSW has happened. Not only has the original program never fully given us users a complete bug free environment to work in, lets face it still is buggy as hell, but now they want to charge us for the privilege over and above what we have already paid. What a rip-off.

I would personally like to thank John and the crew for the effort put in previously, my views are nothing personal, but I think this must rate as the biggest rip-off ever perpetrated on eBay users.

Not only do we pay fees to list our material.
Not only do we pay fees when we sell.
Not only do we pay fees for extra listing benefits (gallery etc.)
Now they want us to pay a license fee to use software to make them money. Huh!

I have seen this happen before and it does not work. I am sure it will start with the best intentions but in a short space of time it will turn into a farce. Lets say no upgrades or improvements are introduced in a 3 month period but your software does not work 100%, under this scheme you still have to pay.

I have been waiting for the day ebay offers us their CUSTOMERS a free bulk loading program, because lets face it, we make them the money - we the sellers. To charge us the way they intend to is an insult.

I believe the first auction site that starts offering their customers free bulk uploading software with realistic listing/selling fees will cause ebay no end of grief. I personally can not believe that ebay and Blackthorne have been so DUMB in their assessment of us. I personally will start looking around and will have no hesitation to take my custom elsewhere. And they wonder why more and more users are joining other sites or starting their own online shops.

Ebay and Blackthorne users vote with your mouse (feet), take your business elsewhere as these two companies certainly do no seem to wish to keep you as clients.

By KELLY on Tuesday, February 06, 2001 - 06:57 pm:

JOHN! AFTER SPEAKING TO YOU MANY MANY MANY TIMES ON THE PHONE, AND HAVING SUCH FAITH IN YOU, I CAN NOT BELIEVE THAT YOU WOULD TREAT YOUR LOYAL CUSTOMERS THIS WAY!! Yes, it is a business decision, and truthfully I am sure that ebay can make you do anything they want since they OWN you, but I just cant believe that you would let them do this to us!! I believe I was one off the first people to use your program, and also one of the first people to up grade the HOUR it became available. Over the past 2 years, I have helped about 15 people to also buy and use your product. IS WHAT YOU ARE DOING LEGAL? I mean, I bought this product, but now I cant use it? isn't that like you selling me a car, then two years later, coming back to take off my wheels? Well, with the number of complaints on this page, it looks like you just lost a WHOLE LOT of your REAL customers. But to anyone out their reading this, don't worry, there are a lot of other programs that can do as much if not more then this one, and by the way, the others will work with many OTHER auction sites (ebay wont let that happen with their new program, will they?)I simply can not believe that combined with drastically falling sales and increased ebay fees, now I have to loose the only thing that I still loved about ebay. COME TO THINK OF IT, WHAT ARE WE ALL COMPLAINING ABOUT? DO YOU REALIZE HOW MANY OTHER AUCTIONS SIGHTS THERE ARE??????? WE "MADE" EBAY WHAT IT IS!! WE "MADE" AUCTION ASSISTANT WHAT IS IS!! LETS FIND SOME ONE WHO WILL TREAT US RIGHT, AND "MAKE" A NEW SIGHT WERE THE PEOPLE CAN BE HEARD, AND RESPECTED.

By 3-bs on Tuesday, February 06, 2001 - 06:58 pm:

agree I bought it I like it but I have already PAID for it, and will not be forced into a rental situation , plenty of other free softwear to use out there.I too will be happy to join in any class action lawsuit. Ebay has already cut my profits once this year will a fee hike and now trying to cut it again.

By Art Tedeschi on Tuesday, February 06, 2001 - 07:07 pm:

John,

I guess it was just a matter of time before the eGreed mentality worked its way down to the Blackthorne business model. Coming on the heels of increased US postal service fees, increased auction insertion fees, and the crackdown on seller-to-buyer contact, it is just one more nail in the small business owner's coffin. What I find particularly distasteful is that this latest announcement from Blackthorne comes less than three weeks after Meg's quarterly letter to the "community" detailing the phenominal growth over the last year. At some point the question MUST be asked...WHEN IS ENOUGH, ENOUGH? I, for one, will not subscribe to the software. That was not the "deal" I signed on for, and your attempts to explain the situation sound conspicuously like the eBay "party line" we get from the talking heads over there, whenever they decide to nickel-and-dime us a little bit more. It is unfortunate that Blackthorne has become just another monthly revenue stream for eBay, and that the most proliferic eBay sellers are again being targeted, despite being the ones most responsible for the company's success.

Sign me, extremely disappointed.

By A. Skinner on Tuesday, February 06, 2001 - 07:11 pm:

John, charging monthly fees is so wrong for so many reasons.

Not the least of which is the fact that eBay customers who use auction software are already providing MORE income for eBay than those who don't, by virtue of their ability to process more auctions in less time. We're the ones who've been up late into the night, learning the finer points of auctioning and the best use of your auction software, all resulting in more fees collected by eBay. We're the ones who've been the very willing guinea pigs for your research. How many times have you - personally - asked us to carefully record and submit information regarding the many troubles we've had along the way?

I believe everyone who already has the software - those of us who supported the building of your company and your software development - are getting a raw deal. You and eBay can make your money off of NEW product sales - we shouldn't have to pay. And given the past record of upgrades (which are usually just accomodating some minor revision to eBay's software changes), I can't imagine that the "major upgrades" you mention are going to significantly improve product performance for most of your current customers' auctions.

I'm sure you're expecting the kind of negative feedback you'll receive about trying to charge additional ongoing fees to all of your long-time customers who've supported you over the years of developing your company and its product. I hope that somehow someone will be able to impress upon you how offensive this is to us.

Like most of your long-time customers, I, too, have spent over $200 on your products. I started long ago with Auction Assistant, which I still use today. I ordered AA Pro the morning of the first day it was availalble, but it sat unused on my shelf for more than a year because it was so full of bugs. Still, I never bad-mouthed your product, despite the fact that no refunds were forthcoming for the virtually useless early versions of that product. Like most of the folks on this board - your customers - I believed that you were a noble guy with a noble cause, and I was willing to support you and your team while you worked on the product. I recently downloaded the latest upgrades to AAPro and have been learning it. With your latest announcement, I can't see why I've spent so much time on it.

It's not right, John. It's just not right.

By Elizabeth Denison on Tuesday, February 06, 2001 - 07:21 pm:

When I read the "eBay Seller's Assistant..." email just now my reaction was "of course, just as I expected, the fallout has finally hit us from ebay's purchase of Blackthorne". It really is to be expected isn't it? Ebay dominates the online auction market and believes (just like Microsoft) that its customers really have no choice but to go along with whatever pricing scheme they decide on. As consumers, our only choice is to vote with our pocketbooks. When ebay (Microsoft) start losing customers they will have to behave in a completely different way. Now they rule!

I for one am always looking for ways to sell outside of ebay and I will have no loyalty to Blackthorne software either. This is a free-market. They can and will price their software as high as the market will bear. When their bottom-line shows different they'll try something else.

We can complain about how unfair or stupid this whole idea is but until ebay (Microsoft) starts losing money it'll fall on deaf ears.

By KELLY on Tuesday, February 06, 2001 - 07:23 pm:

ONE OTHER QUESTION, JOHN, THAT YOU HAVE NOT STATED, IS WHAT HAPPENS TO MY CURRENT RECORDS IN AA?? I HAVE OVER 3000 ITEMS THAT I WOULD HAVE TO TRANSFER!! NOT TO MENTION THAT MY COMPLETE INVENTORY IN MY PHYSICAL STORE IS NUMBERED ACCORDING TO THEIR AAP TRACKING NUMBER, AND SO ARE THE 1000 ITEMS IN MY WEB SIGHT!!!!!!!!!!! ARE YOU TELLING ME THAT I HAVE TO PAY MY EMPLOYEES $9 AN HOUR TO REDO MY ENTIRE STOCK IN MY PHYSICAL STORE AND IN MY WEB SITE, WHICH HAS TAKEN ALMOST A YEAR TO COMPLETE? I AM SO DISGUSTED RIGHT NOW!! EVERYTHING I HAVE WORKED SO HARD FOR, OVER THE PAST 3 YEARS, IS GONE!WASTED TIME! AND OBVIOUSLY WASTED MONEY

By Jerry Straw on Tuesday, February 06, 2001 - 07:35 pm:

If this isn't a money grab from the people who can least afford it, I don't know what is! It is totally outragious that after all the hard work we do to make ebay what it is, that they bite us this way. Ebay should remember that they can always go the same way as alot of dotcoms if we all decide to make another site king of the auctions. Count me in as another user who will be throwing away "Auction Assassin" in the near future.

By Elizabeth Denison on Tuesday, February 06, 2001 - 07:36 pm:

I have used Blackthorne software since August of 98. I purchased the upgrade to AA pro and found it to be so slow and buggy that it was not worth the time it would take to learn it. And since Pro has never really come out of beta I am still using the classic version. So, now what? It looks like I paid $200 for absolutely nothing. I'd like to know if I can get my money back?

I agree with what Michael Eastick says in a previous post "I have been waiting for the day ebay offers us their CUSTOMERS a free bulk loading program, because lets face it, we make them the money - we the sellers. To charge us the way they intend to is an insult."

By rzbud on Tuesday, February 06, 2001 - 07:37 pm:

The rental fee is outrageous!! I have used this program for 2 1/2 years. I have paid for it. Now you are going to charge me rent. I have encouraged others to buy the product, NOT any more. I too will look for another method to list. Blackthorne you made a very big mistake. I am so sorry you can not see the forest for the trees. I bought my copy I own my copy. Is this legal? Sure not ethical....

By John Slocum (jslocum) on Tuesday, February 06, 2001 - 07:39 pm:

Kelly,

The new versions will automatically import your existing records and option settings. You will not need to do anything to make it work in the new version.

John

By Ron Mahinske on Tuesday, February 06, 2001 - 07:44 pm:

John: I really thought you could remain independent. Some of your posts above sound like they came out of the mouth of Meg Whitman. I cannot tell you how many people I have sent you as new customers. Not anymore. Please don't tell us "it is not about the money!" Everything you are doing is about money. Of all the dumb things eBay has done in the past year this has caused me the most fear. I built a small business around AA and eBay. It looks like my long-term goals will not be achieved.

By firemissy on Tuesday, February 06, 2001 - 07:55 pm:

Everything ebay does is greed, Im sorry to see that you have followed suit John. I have always believed business ethics came first.

By Larry Rueschhoff (larruone) on Tuesday, February 06, 2001 - 07:59 pm:

Ouch.
In defense of John, I am betting he is no happier about this than we are.
Unfortunately, there are other products available to take AA & AAP's place...

But not for long! I am predicting that when ebay's API is finalized, ebay will charge other third party software producers a hefty fee for the ability to upgrade their own auction products when needed.

I am recommending that everyone start comparing other products to AA & AAP... Blackthorne might remain the best deal. Or it might not. Look on the bright side... we have a year to decide.

This is really gonna hurt the small sellers... like moi!

By Krustylu on Tuesday, February 06, 2001 - 08:00 pm:

John thanks us in his opening message above, saying:

"I would like to take this opportunity to thank you all for your patience and customer loyalty while we prepared the new versions. Your support
means more than you know.


It's a been a long time since I felt this "thanked" without a kiss.

By Dunnahoo on Tuesday, February 06, 2001 - 08:01 pm:

In addition to AA-Pro users, there are many AA Classic users who will hate this change. My auction postings are more sporadic, perhaps a dozen items at a time, but I don't constantly have items on eBay. I've used AA Classic for a long time, working through the bugs but thankful for how it's made my auction management easier. Paying $60 a year simply doesn't fit the model that small volume sellers such as myself have.

Certainly the AA-Pro users posting here are impacted much more than I am, and I will have an easier time switching to a product that uses a conventional licensing/upgrade model. However, there are likely many smaller users who will also be alienated and walk away, and who aren't active on these discussion forums.

I am definitely disappointed and can't imagine myself taking a subscription after the one-year "grace" period.

By Michael Eastick (meastick) on Tuesday, February 06, 2001 - 08:08 pm:

Delete Blackthorne Links on your auctions. I suggest that we all delete the links that Blackthorne and AApro place on OUR auctions.

Can somebody please place the info how to do that up on this board so that we can do this.

By Michael Eastick (meastick) on Tuesday, February 06, 2001 - 08:11 pm:

May I suggest that we all copy these posts and send them onto Meg and do so every day.

Send all and send often.

See what this generates.

By jayally on Tuesday, February 06, 2001 - 08:20 pm:

I agree wholeheartedly with everyone above and I am very sad. I will look for a new program that is not going to charge me more than I can afford a month but in the interim I will upgrade. Don't expect me to stick around, there are MANY programs out there that can offer me the same thing. I have stuck with AA because I liked the way it works and the people but I can easily change. I also tried the AA pro version and could not stand all the bugs, it was not easy to use although the features sounded really cool.

John, I am very sorry you sold out to ebay although I understand completly your need to do so. Ebay is digging a bigger hole everytime they make a change and announce a new charge. Soon they will fall in and have nothing. I will be one of the first to go and find a better site that has my interests in mind. I need to sell items to make ends meet. I don't do this for fun, it is not a money making venture for me...it is a way to buy milk for my kids and provide what we need to survive between my husband's paychecks.

By jerry straw on Tuesday, February 06, 2001 - 08:22 pm:

"Auction Assassin" merely appends the html code that is your auction. We have always had the power to delete this before starting an ebay auction. Maybe not anymore when AA will link directly with ebay. In fact, the new version maybe an example of "slealth" software that reports info back to ebay without your knowledge or consent. I would not put it past this bunch. I will be extremely wary of this new version. Initially it will only check to see if you are currently licensed to use the product, then it can even get nasty by ordering your computer to delete the software and anything else they disire. This is already happening out there. BEWARE!!!!!!

By dewitt99 on Tuesday, February 06, 2001 - 08:22 pm:

Hey!! Look what it says to the left side of this screen!!!!!
I qoute- "An account is not automatically created when you purchase software. You must sign up for an account if you want to participate."
PURCHASE SOFTWARE!!!!!!! It does not say rent software!!!!!

By rosevictoria on Tuesday, February 06, 2001 - 08:32 pm:

It stands to reason that since ebay is now involved with Blackthorne, the greed has entered in. I will be removing the blackthorne logo from my ads on ebay immediately. Will the new upgrades also make it easier for ebay to monitor our emails? Help them to track after auction sales?

By NASCARGATOR on Tuesday, February 06, 2001 - 08:34 pm:

WELL JOHN! WERE ARE YOU HIDING! MAYBE FROM ALL YOUR MONEY FROM EABY. YOU HAVE STARTED A DISCUSSION FORUM, YOU STAYED AROUND TO ANSEWER A FEW COMMENTS, BUT DON'T SEE ANYTHING NOW! REMEMBER THE OLD SONG IN THE 70'S "TAKE THE MONEY AND RUN"IF SOMEONE HAS THE WEBSITES FOR ALL THE FREE SOFTWARE LISTING PROGRAMS, PLEASE POST IT! I AM LOOKING FOR A NEW LISTING SOFTWARE PROGRAM THAT STANDS BEHIND WHAT THE SELL THE "FIRST TIME".

By Jane Coloma on Tuesday, February 06, 2001 - 08:36 pm:

You know, John, 2 1/2 years ago when I read your "give a man a fish, feed him for a day...teach a man to fish and feed him for a lifetime," I was so impressed. Now the fish comes with a price. I thought so highly of you and your company, John. I recommended your products to every and anyone looking for auction software and good service. I had nothing but praise for you. Now I am thoroughly disheartened and disappointed. Your integrity and trustworthiness have greatly diminished in my eyes. I understand it is business, John. I understand it is BIG business. I will be looking for other ways and I will NOT rent something I already own. Shame on you, John. They bought you out in more ways than you seem to realize.

By James Gatlin (jagatlin) on Tuesday, February 06, 2001 - 08:39 pm:

I put off buying AAPRO for a long time frankly... because it was very pricey considering all the free software out there. But, as we all know, AAPRO is so much better, and far more advanced than all the 'free' packages out there.

However, for as good as AAPRO is, it is NOT THAT MUCH BETTER for me to pay rental fees almost equal to the retail price on an annual basis.

No deal E-Bay... I will take my year, and then go with another package.

For those amoung us with programming skills, a hugh opportunity to develope a replacement for AAPRO has just been created!

By jerry straw on Tuesday, February 06, 2001 - 08:39 pm:

The list of possibilities is to numerous to count. The new software will be a server side product that can keep many records on all of us, possibly to turn over to IRS agents. Have all of you been charging sales tax? Well, there will be a record of it now. Ebay can keep extensive dosiers on all their clients activity. This is what the new version will do. I bet that John will not deny this.

By Jeff Bolton (jefflisa) on Tuesday, February 06, 2001 - 08:41 pm:

Hello All,

First and foremost, let me apologize for the length of this letter. Few things bring me to want to type, as I do not do well typing. I am very sorry to say that I am not without total amazement. This is my ‘Dear John’ Letter…..

Dear John,

As this is a ‘beta’ product John, you really don’t owe us a thing. You owe us absolutely nothing for the time we have spent testing your product and giving you ideas for improvement. Nothing for the time we have spent downloading 2 or 3 ‘upgrades’ in a single week. Nothing for the help we have given each other in the discussion group trying to answer questions that your team left unanswered for some folks that got totally disgusted and felt as though they were ignored. It was, after all, a discussion group that had the disclaimer stating it would not be regularly monitored. We all read and understood that and offered support for you and your paying customers of our own free will. I was not a great contributor to the discussion groups even though I logged on and caught up at least once every two or three days.

Nothing is owed for our loyalty to Blackthorne. We have only invested a few short years and most of us have made enough profit to pay for the software we bought. It was our choice to buy the software. It will be our choice to rent it now. One thing that bothers me is being taken advantage of. In reading one of the post to the discussion group that you made on Friday, January 26th, 2001 at 9:52am (just 12 days ago John), I copied and pasted this statement made by you in the group titled: Blackthorne Software Discussion Forum: Beta: AA Pro: Buy it Now...How about it John? I would encourage everyone to go read that topic so I am not accused of taking it out of context. It is a direct quote, not altered.

QUOTE:
The API is a very powerful tool, but in the wrong hands, it can be dangerous. eBay must ensure that developers using the API must follow strict rules and only use the API as intended. Therefore they must go through a certification process. We are the first to go through this process, and therefore are the ones who have to work out the kinks. We are very close to being certified though and when we get the OK, we will be releasing versions into beta. I know it sounds odd that we have to be certified even though we are part of eBay (I was more frustrated than anyone), but in order for eBay to ensure that they are not showing any favoritism, they must treat us as any other third party.
END QUOTE

John, please don’t think I would accuse you or any one else of lying. I will go on the record as saying that the quoted statement at appears to be deception at it’s best. Now, rest your eyes for a moment, then read on. I’m not done yet.

Thank you from saving us from the ‘dangers’ of the API tool. I am 46, much too young to die, but not in need of saving.

I appreciate your efforts, however I do not agree with your tactics. As in all business decisions, I felt this one was well thought out and the losses were calculated much more than 12 days ago. It would not be within the parameters of the way you have operated in the past to make such a decision on the spur of the moment.

I do not mind being one of the folks you have obviously decided is expendable as an ‘expected loss’ and do not wish to keep your word with. I would pay $200 or more for the upgrade each and every year if it were my decision. Just as you have made the decision to dispose of the past, I like to make my decisions as well. Sometimes I make bad ones, but not so often that it hinders my forward success.

You may realize that I have decided not to rent your software. I feel as though you have used us for guinea pigs for your own profit. I applaud your ability as a programmer, but not your decision. It’s a good thing that successful businesses are not built on friendships. They are however built on mutual loyalty between the entrepreneur and the customer.

You will have some people that like this new way or will decide to stick with you just because it is human nature to resist change. I would like to wish you good luck with your upcoming product, but I will withhold my wishes at this time.
You don’t owe us anything John. Nor do we owe you.

Jeff B

Now, if anyone is offended by my letter, that’s fine. You are welcome to your opinion and should express it, just as I have. Thanks you all for your time and the help and answers you provided me when I asked.

Jeff B

By Dan Adney (danadney) on Tuesday, February 06, 2001 - 08:43 pm:

Hi John & eBAY,
DID YOU LEARN THIS TRICK FROM PAYPAL? BAIT AND SWITCH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Like so many companies that become successful, like Ebay and Blackthorne, eventually you forget what it was that created that success. If you and Ebay would have set this deal up in the beginning, there is no way you would have had the success in selling your software. So, if it would not have been a good way to do things in the beginning, what makes you think it is a good thing to do now? I think I know the answer, "it is called EXTORTION" which is exactly what it feels like to me. "Either you pay-up or we cut your knees off" as in: The software I purchased will not update when the 1 year self-destruct/timebomb goes off in it. Ebay is really giving the term "nickel and dime you to death" a real solid definition.
I have enjoyed using your product, but I will not rent the program that I have already purchased. A year can make a big difference, just ask many of the dotcoms who once were big but now don't exist. My guess is, they failed to meet the needs and expectations of their customers.

Dan

By John Slocum (jslocum) on Tuesday, February 06, 2001 - 08:43 pm:

NASCARGATOR,

I am still here, but I'm not sure what you want me to say. I am reading all of your posts and I understand your concerns. I'm trying to answer questions as they relate to the new versions.

I'm taking a beating on the boards, but I will read every post. In the end, the question of my integrity lies with whether I am providing value for what is charged. I believe that my programs do provide that value. I sincerely hope that many of you do too.

John

By Jeff Bolton (jefflisa) on Tuesday, February 06, 2001 - 08:44 pm:

Things are pretty hot tonight ‘eh John?

By palmtopcop on Tuesday, February 06, 2001 - 08:48 pm:

I just want to add

By Jeff Bolton (jefflisa) on Tuesday, February 06, 2001 - 08:50 pm:

John,

If you would like to know the true 'value' of your product, put it up for auction on eBay. The highest bid is the true value. Anyone can say what an item or service is worth. The true worth is what someone is willing to pay. Do as we do John, find the true value of your product.

This is, by the way, a challenge.
Jeff B

By gudstuff on Tuesday, February 06, 2001 - 08:51 pm:

HI Ive been with you a long time also,as Ebay turns into the next monopoloy the courts will have to deal with. Its too bad the people that got you on the map will have to deal in the same manner you have. Its all about money. When we dont make any you wont either. Post office,Ebay, Paypal,And now you. As the increases mount up my sales start dropping to the point of not making enought to keep on dooing the work so why do it????You sold out to better your self.My option ????????go somewhere that i can make a little more or quite when i dont make any profit. I was looking for a program when i found you and gave you my money. I will find another to give the next pile to. Ebay will not get any more. When they suck the profit from us all they will die faster than they grew . And another ebussiness will hit the botton scraching there heads, or mabe its starting and they are pulling the profit out as fast as they can, as for you John take the money and run the email i got from you has changed my feelings about the company you sold Thanks for your effort but mabe its time to move on Tim (gudstuff.com)

By dewitt99 on Tuesday, February 06, 2001 - 08:55 pm:

John!
I have not seen a reply to the quote of the statement to the left yet? Should you have changed that before emailing all of us Blackthorne users. I am very bothered at the thought of this change in decision!!! I myself did look at many other listing programs, but because of my experience with the "old free 90 day trial" I decided to purchase the software. Had I known 6 months ago that this decision was coming, I would have gone to another listing company!! I think we are due much more than what you anticipated!

By NASCARGATOR on Tuesday, February 06, 2001 - 08:58 pm:

JOHN, THANKS FOR LETTING US KNOW YOUR STILL HERE! MY CONCERNS ARE NOT ABOUT THE NEW VERSIONS, BUT SELLING A PRODUCT FOR $200.00 WITH UPGRADES AND NOW YOU WANT $200.00 A YEAR TO RENT THE "NEW VERSION". "IS THIS A DONE DEAL?" DOES EBAY MAKE ALL THE RULES FOR THIS SOFTWARE NOW? IF SO I WILL STOP MY COMMENTS, AND START LOOKING FOR A NEW PROGRAM? WM

By Krista Kirkwood Scrappyjo on Tuesday, February 06, 2001 - 09:02 pm:

John,

I love my AAPro.

What a shame. More fees to pay???

Maybe you should have a CHEAP one time fee for us lifetimers. Please think about it.

By wayne wilson (wayne) on Tuesday, February 06, 2001 - 09:06 pm:

Ok
here is My dear John Letter.
i agree with every one on here, i think the rent is a little hefty for only being able to use it on ebay site if it could be used on other sites then it would be a different story.WHich will never happen because of the ebay owner part. I dont think john is jumping up and down with joy delivering this to us ethier. i still will wait for more information is out before i get to upset. This my only living as of right now.and as others i have taken many charges this year. but i dont think we need to shot the messanger.

By John Slocum (jslocum) on Tuesday, February 06, 2001 - 09:07 pm:

NASCARGATOR,

I am including a clip from the FAQ to help explain the new charges....

--------
It has always been our policy that minor and intermediate upgrades would be free, but major upgrades would incur a charge. The new versions are both major upgrades and if we continued with the traditional software upgrade model, we would have charged for this upgrade. In the past, software products release a new upgrade about once each year. Users must purchase the upgrade to remain current. With the advent of the internet, traditional models don't always work anymore. With the speed at which we must change our application it is impractical to come out with a major upgrade only once a year. Instead, we come out with many smaller upgrades to keep pace with the changing environment. The new monthly subscription plan applies the same principal to our fee structure. We spread the cost of the software out over time just like we spread out the upgrades. This allows you to continually be updated with the latest software
-----------

The subscription fee is really just a different way of looking at an upgrade and support policy. Rather than paying the upgrade each year, it gets spread out. You can also turn your subscription on and off if there are months during the year that you don't list, and you can switch back and forth between the products if you find you prefer the other product.

John

By jane coloma anteeka on Tuesday, February 06, 2001 - 09:11 pm:

RE:"In the end, the question of my integrity lies with whether I am providing value for what is charged...." Integrity is a wholeness, John. Value for what is charged is only a part. Integrity is not only measured in the value of what is being charged, but is primarily measured in a man's word and moral principle. Integrity does not have a dollar value. And that is the moral bottom line.

By Miles on Tuesday, February 06, 2001 - 09:13 pm:

John? John? John?... After reading these post, will you be able to sleep tonight? This is only a tiny fraction of your loyal customers speaking out! What is going to happen when the rest find out?...
If you have any integrity left, you would offer us a refund. I like "dewiit99" just purchased this software within the last year...
I too thought I made a good "business decision" by purchasing your software...I now realize it was a poor one...

By Frank Osterhoudt (goldeneagle) on Tuesday, February 06, 2001 - 09:14 pm:

I am speechless.... and whenever that occurs, my frustrations flow through the keys, often to no avail...
I have followed the postings under this topic since they began with John's announcement several hours ago... I am truly in a state of shock and overwhelmed with disbelief, to the point that I still find myself unable to clearly formulate my thoughts. I will say that there is nothing in the USER postings within this thread that I am not feeling, nor is there anything that I disagree with - even in the least. My only distinctly strong feeling at this point is that those of us who have paid the price (in $$$, time, frustration, anxiety and input) to get this application to the point it has reached, deserve, at the very least, to be "Grand fathered" in for life at no additional cost. Even if we were allowed to continue with a set annual fee of, let's say, $25.00, it would go a very, very long way toward letting us know that all of our trust and efforts were not going unrecognized and unappreciated. There is a fortune to be made from this for both eBay and John, but it should not come at our expense. Being the comparatively small group that we are, we are not the ones that will bring this about - in the end, we will have little, if any, effect... Regardless of whether or not we buy in to this - It will not change the outcome. The true fruit will come from the multitude of new users as eBay continues to grow.

In closing, I wish to reiterate (and comment on) portions of my posting yesterday under the topic:
REF: “Blackthorne Software Discussion Forum: Beta: AA Pro: AAPro beta sends reserve not met offers to ebay “
“By Frank Osterhoudt (goldeneagle) on Monday, February 05, 2001 - 02:14 am”:

"From the beginning, John has worked for (and with) us, and I sincerely believe that he will not ignore his obligation to provide us with the product he promised for the $$$ we paid."
(I find it incredibly difficult to believe that we could have misread John to the extent that we did... I find it equally unbelievable that he could have misread us to an even greater degree....)

"My one (and only one) concern at this point stems from not knowing the extent to which eBay has control over further development of the program. If John is still the primary controlling entity, we need to give him some breathing room and time to respond to our concerns, as I feel certain he will. On the other hand, if eBay is the guiding force, I feel that we all need to be concerned.... Very Concerned. "
(Enough said.... It appears that our beautiful bubble of anxious anticipation has burst....)

By brenda reed (peddlers) on Tuesday, February 06, 2001 - 09:15 pm:

I'm really disappointed like everyone else. I loved AAPro. I started with the Classic with all bells and whistles a long time ago $149 or more...Then purchased AAPRO with all the bells and whistles for $179 or more. Did you notice I PURCHASED it? I, like everyone else, may be a little inconvenienced to leave aapro in a year, but my inconvenience is cheaper than me "renting" a program you SOLD to me. I'm sure if it comes down to me "renting" a PURCHASED program, I'll find another program down the line that will suffice.

I feel that all of us that have already PURCHASED our programs should be "grandfathered" in and get to keep what we had bought. I don't mind paying a reasonable upgrade fee, but RENT?! Get REAL! Let new subscribers "rent". But be fair to your loyal current customers.

By Susan Day on Tuesday, February 06, 2001 - 09:15 pm:

I just read about the new release of Auction Assistant and AAPro to find that I will now be charged about $200 per year to use the software. As I expected, the purchase of this company by eBay 'screwed up' a good thing.I have made a small business out of teaching others how to 'eBay'. 99% of them are antique and collectible dealers which I teach how to use the computer and how to list their items on eBay. After teaching them the 'long way' to list I then introduce them to Auction Assistant with the free trial download - 100% of them have purchased the product - and I didn't even get a commission for that! Had I known a year ago when I upgraded to AAPro that use of the software would go to a monthly fee I never would have upgraded or suggested it to my students. There are many other ways to list. Considering this is another ePAY feature I guess we will all be dropping out of the program! I thought I purchased the right to use the program. BAD BAD decision. (I should have listened to that little voice that told me so when you sold out to eBay).

By NASCARGATOR on Tuesday, February 06, 2001 - 09:16 pm:

JOHN, THANK YOU! I GUESS THE ANSWER TO MY QUESTIONS IS THAT IT IS A "DONE DEAL"& EBAY HAS THE LAST WORD! I WILL TAKE THE FREE UPGRADE FOR A YEAR AND WAIT FOR A NEW SUBSCRIPTION FEE FOR 2002!

By David B. Shields on Tuesday, February 06, 2001 - 09:21 pm:

Please add my absolute and total disgust at this move to rip the very people who have patronized both eBay and Blackthorne. I am about to puke! I'm so put out. I just can't think of words appropriate enough to express my utter disappointment in these developments. I'm fairly new to eBay (about a year now) and I must admit that I began with a great deal of admiration and respect. I tried it and liked it. Thinking I would expand and get in deeper, I bought AA and while I paid a lot of money for it only a month or so ago, I was pleased. And now I get this crap! I cannot believe it. I think I will seriously have to consider just dropping plans to join the eBay crowd on any kind of permanent basis. And I was thinking about buying eBay stock, too. That is until the last few weeks. I agree with the others: how in the hell can a company so greedy and exploitive as this action with AA proves them to be be destined for great things in corporate American? And I thought the escalating eBay fees was low rent! WoW! I'm flabbergasted, sick to my stomach. Let me outta here!

By Jeff on Tuesday, February 06, 2001 - 09:22 pm:

Joh, frankly, you are not telling the whole story. Your software has been ful of bugs since it was released. Since you never fixed the original verisons, how in the world can you justify charging for the next. I'm sure you can tell, I am mad as heck, and you are right.

By B. A. Murry (bamcards) on Tuesday, February 06, 2001 - 09:22 pm:

Hey, When is the signup form available?
I'm ready to jump into the new Seller's Assistant Pro.
I'm as tight as anyone I know. But I also want to be using the most productive and effective program available for handling my auction activities. If I'm a good businessman, I expect the increased productivity will make any fees reasonably absorbed.

I started using the orignal AA in Sep '98 and jumped to the Pro when it was in the early pre 1.00 version. With my own effort and hard work, I found out how to use the new features and improve my productivity with every incremental release. The challenges of an evolving program, 'bugs!', were usually quickly remedied and turned into advancements almost on request.

I'm sorry that the apparent ineptness of some users hasn't allowed them to use the program to the extent that is available. A lot of 'bugs' are self inflicted.

It is obvious many of us can and have used these products to handle far more chores that we imagined when we first decided to make internet auction activites a major part of our business lives.

In just a couple of hours since the announcement of the new advanced versions, terms like lying, cheating, ripoff, lawsuits etc. show how shallow and childish some self-described 'professional eBay sellers' can be.

I won't mind if the angry and disgruntled users flee the ship soon and let the rest of us get on with our business lives.

Are you old enough to remember when the idea of "pay-TV" was announced?
That concept never worked, did it?

By drexelantiques on Tuesday, February 06, 2001 - 09:25 pm:

John, You should take a beating on the boards. With this new fiasco you deserve it. You promissed many things, and delivered on few of them. You have betrayed every single person who sent you money for your products. I can't say I was happy with how buggy the software was, buyt at least it was livable. Now this?

By Jeff Bolton (jefflisa) on Tuesday, February 06, 2001 - 09:31 pm:

John,
In reading the post you've pasted to a couple of these topic groups in the last few minutes I have a question. you posted that: "The subscription fee is really just a different way of looking at an upgrade and support policy. Rather than paying the upgrade each year, it gets spread out."

Does that mean that rape is just another way of looking at sex. Rather than committing to someone, you just take what you 'need'.

Just courious, seems to be a few folks that are wanting answers other than the FAQ you keep quoting. We can all read and write. It looks like most folks are looking for answers, not FAQs.

Jeff

By Bob Martin (bmartin) on Tuesday, February 06, 2001 - 09:37 pm:

I've been with this program since the very beginning.. upgrading to the Pro version even though I thought it was a touch high at the time.. I can remember trying several other programs before sticking with Auction Assistant, one of which wanted a monthly charge.. I can remember liking the program but the monthly charge was a real turn off.. I don't think that program lasted very long.. and I'm sorry to say that I would probably pay for an upgrade since this would be a one time pain in my pocket.. but a monthly fee.. I'm afraid that this will be added to the list of things that just bug the heck out of me and I learn to live without.. like internet service from my local cable company.. I like it.. but I'll be danged if I'll pay them a monthly fee to borrow their cable modem.. I've just learned to live without.

By Edward G. Martin on Tuesday, February 06, 2001 - 09:38 pm:

I agree with the tone of everyone else who has posted in this group.... THIS IS A BLATENT RIP OFF OF THOSE WHO PREVIOUSLY PURCHASED THE PROGRAM. My intentions are to use the program until which time the monthly fees go into effect and then to DUMP IT IN THE TRASHCAN WHERE IT BELONGS. If this is the way you reward customer loyalty, then I for one wish that you have the chance to be on the receiving end of this type of "reward" in the near future so that you may experience how it feels to get the shaft like this. I hope that you and Ebay will one day have a chance to see this ship sink right from under your feet and that everyone who has purchased up to this point jumps ship, casting aside your software for someone else’s program, and that new "subscribers" are as rare as an "Honest Clinton". As for me, I have one thing to be grateful for...
I have been considering "upgrading" from my current standard version to the "Professional" version as of late... BOY AM I GLAD THAT I DIDN'T YET...cause that is one chunk of money that you won't screw me out of like you did for my previous purchases. I too, like to think that I have spent my money wisely on a product or service worth the expenditure. As a matter of fact, my all-time favorite adage is: "The bitterness of poor quality is remembered long after the sweetness of low price is forgotten."..
Somehow I now feel that I will have to revise it to be something like... "The burning pain of betrayal lingers on long after the wallet has been emptied and the programmer has "sold out". You should hang your head in shame.

By jerry straw on Tuesday, February 06, 2001 - 09:39 pm:

HELLO. (knock, knock) IS ANYONE OUT THERE!!! This new version is "snitchware". All you who don't think that ebay is not going to keep files on every transaction you do is insane. This is a server based application with a small client file on your computer. Wake up and smell the coffee! Do you understand the implication? That's why the subscription fee. It's based on ebays servers.

By jane coloma on Tuesday, February 06, 2001 - 09:41 pm:

Just today I was touting Blackthorne. Recruiting more sellers to use this product. Time for me to backtrack and go eat crow. So, John, your new Seller's Assistant will be for the big timers...the Disney and Butterfield's and Rosie's Auctions, et al. The independent or small-time sellers will not be using it in great numbers, I can assure you. The price is prohibitive, and the word of mouth praise and recommendations will greatly diminish, if not stop altogether. The ethics of this change are deplorable, and that will become public knowledge very quickly. I really didn't think I could become more disillusioned, let alone surprised, by anything eBay-related. I was wrong. Both have been accomplished today in one fell swoop.

By KELLY on Tuesday, February 06, 2001 - 09:44 pm:

HAS ANYONE DECIDED YET IF THIS IS EVEN LEGAL? ISN'T THIS THE SAME THING AS SELLING US A CAR, THEN 2 YEARS LATER, TAKING THE ENGINE OUT, AND TELLING US IF WE WANT TO USE THE CAR, WE HAVE TO RENT THE ENGINE!!!!!??? DOESN'T ANY OF YOU READING THIS HAVE ANY LEGAL BACKGROUND? YOU GUYS ARE PROBABLY RIGHT, JOHN HAS "SOLD OUT" BUT THE FACT THAT HE IS HOSTING THIS BOARD SHOWS THAT HE STILL HAS SOME TYPE OF CONTROL AND SAY OF WHAT HAPPENS. HEY EVERYONE, AM I THE ONLY ONE THAT SALES HAVE SLOWED DOWN FOR ON EBAY? I USED TO SELL ABOUT 75% OF MY ITEMS, NOW I AM LUCKY TO SELL 4%!! IF MOST OF YOU FEEL THE SAME, THEN MAYBE EBAY IS FEELING THE SAME THING TOO? I MEAN, MAYBE THEY ARE ALREADY FALLING INTO THE HOLE THAT MOST OF YOUR WERE TALKING ABOUT, THAT IS WHY THEY HAVE DECIDED TO "RAPE AND ROB" THERE DEVOTED CUSTOMERS? SO ANY WAY, I SUGGEST EVERYONE HERE MAKES SURE THEIR FRIENDS AND CUSTOMERS ON EBAY KNOW WHAT IS GOING ON, AND SINCE I FEEL THAT ALL OF US ARE BEING TAKEN ADVANTAGE OF TO THE POINT OF EXTORTION, WHY NOT CONTACT SAFE HARBOR TOO? EBAY SUPPOSEDLY GIVES US A SMALL AMOUNT OF FRAUD PROTECTION, LIKE $200 OR SOMETHING, WE SHOULD ALL WRITE THEM, TELL THEM WE HAVE BEEN EXPOSED TO INTERNET FRAUD THROUGH EBAY, AND WE WANT TO BE COVERED.

I AM GOING TO FIND YOU GUYS ALL THE EMAIL ADDRESSES I CAN THINK OF, THEN POST THEM HERE, WHAT I WOULD ADVISE IS FOR YOU TO SAVE A COPY OF ALL YOUR COMMENTS, THEN START SENDING THEM TO ALL THESE BOSO'S AT EBAY!!

By Dennis Charaton (nydennis) on Tuesday, February 06, 2001 - 09:49 pm:

I list almost 200 - 300 auctions a week. I am raped by paypal, Ebay, billpoint and now Blackthrone. Yahoo is starting to look much better now.

I certainly don't have a problem paying a monthly fee after the year, but unless the price comes down to an upgrade subscription price then I too am gone after my year. When I upgraded from AA to AAP we were given a discount for owning a previous version of your software. That is no longer the case. now we are paying FULL RETAIL price for every upgrade every time a new major one comes out. Just about every program I use offers upgrades cheaper for people who own previous versions.

Ebay is forcing me to drive up my prices. I will be adding links to my auctions to auctions on Yahoo for people to look at. This way I am no longer giving every cent to ebay.

By A. Skinner on Tuesday, February 06, 2001 - 09:54 pm:

John -

I think the comments posted here are most siginificant because of the population represented - namely, your most loyal customers who can quickly navigate through the boards to make a posting because they've come here so often before. What a shame it would be to waste all the potential good will of this group by pursuing the current course of action re: rental fees. We all know that those who write in on any issue represent a much alrger percentage of the population who feel the same.

The reaction is certainly running the gamut from frustration to anger and even personal insult to you. Although I feel much of the same reactions, I'd like to try and get a little more information from you on the future of the product:

As suggested above, WILL eBay in fact be able to keep "records" of the transactions along with a degree of detail they've not previously had access to?

IS there a possibility of the proposed "rental fess" being reconsidred in favor of grandfathreing in those of us who have long helped develop the product? or even a significantly lower "charter member" fee as proposed above ($25 annually)?

Please let us know anything else you can as soon as you can - I know most of us (though angry now) would welcome the opportunity to get this all corrected before it all gets worse.

Thanks,

Doc

By mom10989 on Tuesday, February 06, 2001 - 09:57 pm:

John,
I don't think you could have created more dissatisfaction among your loyal customers if you had deliberately set out to do so.
Your announcement ranks right down there along with ebay's imposition of the reserve auction fee, as one of the worst customer-relations blunders I've ever seen.
It's charmingly naive, I suppose, for you to think that ebay support will be any enhancement at all to Blackthorne support. When I first started out buying and selling on ebay three years ago, I was delighted with the prompt and knowledgeable support. But that was three years ago. Now one is lucky to receive a canned, generic reply that has little or nothing to do with your message, two weeks after you've sought help.
I bought AA so my dozen or so auctions per month would look good. I'll probably download the free major upgrade and accept the free year's worth of minor ones. But right now I can't imagine myself paying a dime in monthly fees after that. I'll look for another program to use, or I'll learn to write my own HTML.
I've recommended Auction Assistant to several ebay acquaintances, who've wound up buying it, too, but you can be sure I won't recommend it again. And I'll be removing your advertising tag from all my future auction listings, unless and until you change your mind about charging your long-time, loyal customers a monthly fee.

By A. Skinner on Tuesday, February 06, 2001 - 10:03 pm:

Kelly -

I don't think there's anyting illegal about the proposed rental fees. It's no diffrent from any other software manufacturer that sells upgrades to their products, most on a seemingly annual basis.

We have been told that the existing product will continue to function. I suspect, however, that it will quickly become unusable without upgrading, because of changes eBay will be making to it's own software programs, i.e. category expansions, etc. At that point one might have some claim, albeit a pretty weak one.

Doc

By John Slocum (jslocum) on Tuesday, February 06, 2001 - 10:07 pm:

Doc,

I hesitate to say anything for fear of my words getting twisted, but because you are one of the few to ask a sincere question I will respond with an honest answer. Please everyone try to get the meaning out of what I am saying and not pick it apart.

The above comments on eBay storing your information and knowing everything about you are unfounded. Our programs are client based, not server based. All of your data resides on your hard drive. The only way our program can talk to eBay is through the API. We do not have access to any functions that other 3rd parties using the API wouldn't have access to. And none of those functions are intended to do anything that you don't already do on eBay. The truth of the matter is that it is quite the opposite. eBay originally had designed an API function that would be able to return your winning bidders address information, but that function was scrapped because they could not provide any funcitonality that wasn't already available on the eBay site. We will not be keeping tabs on your daily operations or reporting your income to the IRS. Actually I find this topic very interesting, since we are one of the very few auction management programs that aren't server based. Take a look at some of the other competitors and look at where your data is stored. I think you will find we are one of the safest.

Regarding any reconsideration of proposed fees. I am not aware of any such considerations. The current pricing was not entered into lightly. It was the result of a comparison of the capabilities of our tool and the cost of other competitors. We really feel it is very reasonably priced when compared to the alternatives providing the same functionality.

I hope this helps answer some of your questions,

John

By Edward Amatucci on Tuesday, February 06, 2001 - 10:09 pm:

John,
I would have to agree with the majority here. I like your program, but not interested in locking into a monthly fee....no need to re-hash the above. Hope you reconsider at least for the basic users.
Eddie

By jerry straw on Tuesday, February 06, 2001 - 10:10 pm:

Listen folks, John is not charging the fee and it's not "leaseware", it's ebay charging for server time. It's time to stop hammering John and get some real answers from him about the true nature of this new "version" of AA. I assume a complete record of every transaction will reside on ebay servers and will be sold in condensed form for demographic information. ALL WITHOUT OUR KNOWLEDGE OR CONSENT. The good folks at ebay will be tapping into a fortune of info sold to the highest bidder. This goes far beyond the "cookie" concept that has us troubled about online privacy. Ebay is not to be trusted unless we get some indication that this is not going to happen.

By KELLY on Tuesday, February 06, 2001 - 10:12 pm:

OK, MAYBE OTHERS CAN HELP? LOL, EBAY HAS CHANGED SO MUCH, USE TO BE YOU COULD EMAIL ALL THE DIFFERENT PLACES, BUT NOW YOU HAVE TO FILL IN FORMS? ANYWAYS, HERE IS A PAGE FOR THE FORMS FOR COMPLAINTS, ETC. I SUGEST SENDING AN EMAIL TO EACH PART OF EBAY, TO LET EVERYONE KNOW HOW TICKED AND SERIOUS WE ARE!

http://pages.ebay.com/help/community/help-support-more.html
I ALSO HAVE THESE EMAIL ADDRESS:

Powerseller@ebay.com

ebaysurvey@ebay.com

Support@eBay.com

safeharbor@ebay.com

By rosevictoria on Tuesday, February 06, 2001 - 10:14 pm:

John,
Dont you find it odd that we are not seeing anything in the above comments to support the decision? Why is it that you are the only one that thinks this is a great deal for all????

By Jeff Bolton (jefflisa) on Tuesday, February 06, 2001 - 10:15 pm:

John,

Looks like you did finally answer the question of the thought that has been put behind this, even while posting in a totally different persona..

I apologize for hurting your feelings. I must admit, it appears that you would be a little tougher than that.

Sleep well; I have to work for a living in the morning.

By Bert Stamler on Tuesday, February 06, 2001 - 10:20 pm:

A previous post you made says users will have the option of NOT paying the monthly fee, but only for the months they are NOT using the program. You even said we could switch between AA and AAPro. Now it appears that it's either pay the monthly fee or don't use EITHER program. Suppose I take the summer off and stop paying. In the fall I make a payment of $15.99 and get the upgraded program the rest of your subscribers have paid you to support the whole year? Are we paying a fee to rent a program a la carte, or must "We spread the cost of the software out over time just like we spread out the upgrades." (see John's post above.)

The way I see it, it's the regular, loyal, long time users of your software that will bear the burden to "spread out the cost of the software", and not the sellers who jump on ebay in November and December for the Christmas rush. But they'll get the benefits of the same program WE supported the year through. That stinks!

Ebay owns your company, and the software only works on ebay, how about A LISTING FEE DISCOUNT for sellers using your new software and paying a monthly "subscription" fee to list their auctions?

If there's no monetary advantage to using your software to list on ebay, sorry, I just can't afford ANOTHER $200 a year to rent software I feel I've already paid to use.

By KELLY on Tuesday, February 06, 2001 - 10:37 pm:

YUK YUK YUK I AM JUST SO DISCOURAGED, THIS IS LEAVING A TERRIBLE TASTE IN MY MOUTH, AND A TERRIBLE FEELING IN MY STOMACH! SEVERAL OF YOU HAVE ASKED JOHN QUESTIONS, ASKED HIM TO EXPLAIN THINGS, TRUTHFULLY, I DON'T THINK YOU CAN REALLY TRUST ALL THAT STUFF ABOUT EBAY NOT USING OUR INFO, JOHN PROVED THIS AFTERNOON THAT WE CANT TRUST OR RELY ON EBAY TO BE FAIR WITH US (ALTHOUGH MOST OF US ALREADY KNEW THAT)AND HE WORKS FOR EBAY, SO UNLESS YOU GET A WRITTEN PAPER, SIGNED BY THE OWNERS OF EBAY AND THE "ALL KNOWING MEG" EVERYTHING YOU READ IN THE FORUM IS SIMPLY "HEARSAY" WHAT'S TO STOP EBAY A YEAR FROM NOW TELLING US THAT THEY CHANGED THEIR MINDS AGAIN, AND THAT IT IS $300 A YEAR, OR $200 A MONTH? WHAT GUARANTEE DO WE HAVE THAT WHEN THE FREE YEAR IS UP, THEY WILL NOT HAVE MADE EVEN MORE SO CALLED "IMPROVEMENTS"? EVERYONE IN THIS BOARD THOUGHT WE WERE ENTERING INTO A "CONTRACT" WITH AA WHEN WE PAID FOR OUR PROGRAMS, AND YOU TRUSTED AND ABIDED BY THAT CONTRACT, WE CERTAINLY COULD NOT CHANGE THAT CONTRACT, BUT APPARENTLY THEY CAN. AS SELLERS WE HAVE ALL HAD OUR "BAD APPLES" THAT HAVE TAUGHT US ABOUT THE GREED SURROUNDING US ON THE INTERNET, EITHER THROUGH BAD SALES, BAD BUYS, WITH PAY PAL, AND OVER AND OVER AGAIN WITH EBAY. A QUOTE FROM JOHN:
Regarding any reconsideration of proposed fees. I am not aware of any such considerations. The current pricing was not entered into lightly. It was the result of a comparison of the capabilities of our tool and the cost of other competitors.

NOTICE THAT THEY DIDN'T SAY ANYTHING ABOUT SURVEYS, ABOUT THE FAITHFUL USERS, ABOUT OUR THOUGHTS OR CONCERNS, THEY NEVER LET US VOICE OUR OPINIONS UNTIL TONIGHT, WHEN "THE DEED HAS BEEN DONE"
IF IT IS SO EASY TO BREAK A CONTRACT OR UNDERSTAND THAT WE HAVE HAD FOR SEVERL YEARS, TEHN WHY WOULD YOU BELIEVE SOMETHING SAID IN A FORUM?

By Warren Barnes (matchcoverguy) on Tuesday, February 06, 2001 - 10:44 pm:

This is in fact a very sad day for all of us that have worked through all of the beta versions of the Pro. Like a number of other folks, I was in on the Pro Beta prior to it coming into existence in September, 1999. I'm really shocked by this - I really thought John would never sell us out like this, but I guess it is just the way things go these days.

I kind of feel the same way I did when Carlton Fisk left the Red Sox to go to the White Sox years ago.. I guess the bottom line on both situations is that Carlton and John had to do what they thought was in the best interest of themselves and their families. I would be willing to bet that each of us, faced with the same situation, would have done exactly the same thing he did. John worked his butt off over the past several years, and his work paid off big time last year when eBay came a callin'. While it would be nice to say, oh no - we would have worked for free and given our service away for zippo while paying our staff to provide support and R&D, it simply isn't reality.

As I said, I don't like this change one bit and really didn't think this would ever happen with Blackthorne. My biggest frustration on this is the messages John posted on this board in response to my questions over the past 12 days. While I understand that he was told by Meg not to let us in on this until today, I do feel he was less than up front with us in his first post regarding the upcoming changes with the program.

The second post, which continued on into a huge mess regarding messages going through eBay servers, may have also been less than truthful - I thought I knew John enough to take his word as the definitive truth, but maybe not, based on what has transpired here today. Now that we know how tightly integrated this program is about to become with eBay, it would not surprise me if they have been doing some "tweaking" and perhaps do have the messages running through their servers - maybe without John's knowledge, maybe not.

As you can tell by this post, I have some mixed feelings on this. I've told many people in the past, that without this software, I never would have been able to enjoy the success that I have over the past few years on eBay. I tried many other programs and the bottom line was that they were junk - at least a couple of years ago. I also understand that this is a business and if John can grab the brass ring, then I can't fault him one bit. On the other hand, this program was bought and paid for. One should be able to expect they could use it on a very long-term basis. (Hey - even Windows 95 still works!) I've never paid for an upgrade with Blackthorne - save the original Pro version, and had come to expect that was their M.O. Figured with all the good word being spread by current customers, sales would take care of themselves, therefore pay for the work that went into the upgrades.

As someone said earlier, eBay has already figured a certain percentage of us will bail out on the program - even though it will be free to us for a year. They couldn't care less. When things are good, they don't have to care. But, let's see what happens when the economy goes in the tank and discretionary income is not what it is today. Then, and only then, when profits start to erode, maybe they will understand the importance of customer loyalty.

eBay can kiss my $3,500 a month goodbye - I'm going back to work for myself. Powerseller or not - 3500+ feedback with ONE negative comment be damned - they simply do not care about those who have helped them build their business.

Good luck to you and your team, John. I know you have all worked very hard in getting to this point. I don't think you envisioned having to get into bed with eBay in the beginning, but were probably squeezed by them and had no choice in the end but to sell out to them. I hope you have been taken care of well, because before you know it, eBay may just tell you they don't need you anymore and sell you out, like they have done with us.

Warren

By KELLY on Tuesday, February 06, 2001 - 10:54 pm:

WARREN, how poetic, and sadly true! All of us here wish you the best of luck in your future endeavors, and by the way, have you ever thought of selling your feedbacks? you can do it you know! I only have slightly over 1000, however, after going through my books, I found that each feed back represented approx. 60 profit, but heck with as many as you have, just selling them for a dollar each would be a nice compensation!

By jane coloma on Tuesday, February 06, 2001 - 10:54 pm:

The worst is probably over, John...at least for tonight. Sleep well.

By : on Tuesday, February 06, 2001 - 11:12 pm:

yes, we hope you sleep well, knowing that OUR loyalty and hard work has bought you a fancy car, a nice house, and new clothes. As for the rest of us, we are tucking our children into bed, wondering were we can find a new job so that we can buy dinner tommorrow night.

By robert on Tuesday, February 06, 2001 - 11:14 pm:

I am currently using the software under the 90-day trial. Before I commit to your product it would be good to know some answers.

1. If I buy your product in the next few days what will be done for me. Will I only receive one year free from monthly support fees? Then have to pay next year?

2. You have already confirmed that the AA (now SA) products are wholly client based and none of my proprietary and private infomation is sent to or tracked by eBay. Is this correct?

3. How long is the current support fee structure guaranteed? I mean I don't want it to increase every year. As this is a substantial fee for typical user. And from my lurking around here, it seems lots of users use the Pro version because of the additional features not the number of listings the have.

4. Have you given thought to a fee structure that has several tiers of support. Starting level with no free phone support and thus lower support fees. You could then offer fee per use phone support up to the premium level with unlimited free phone support.

5. Will the new version have a database utility that will allow the exporting of data to another program, say QuickBooks or some other file-type? I am not comfortable with being locked out of my data.

My concerns are that, just when I begin expanding my listings, I find I am locked into a product that I am no longer willing to use do to policy changes.

I have read all of these posts, they paint a bad image of broken promises. What assurances will be offered to new, or remaining customers, that nothing like this will happen again in the next few years.

By jennifer on Tuesday, February 06, 2001 - 11:24 pm:

John,
I must also place my opinion on this board. I have enjoyed using your software and have put up with its bugs, but I also feel that those of us who have been there all along should not have to pay additional fees. We have paved the road for those that follow with your software. Please consider grandfathering us in your new program.

By Larry Rueschhoff (larruone) on Tuesday, February 06, 2001 - 11:27 pm:

I'm back.
I guess you could call me an AA Old-timer... I have been using the program since 1998 I think?

First, my questions to John about the new version:
1. Will it be guaranteed "bug free?" Since we would now be paying monthly, that seems fair trade.
2. Will the "memory drain" be fixed?
3. Will the overall speed of the program be increased, especially for reports?
4.Will we be at least given a Proft and loss report that factors in all ebay fees correctly and
allows us to modify or add other costs?
5.Quote: 'add features users have been requesting, and we have made significant design improvements to make them more powerful, more reliable and easier to use.'... Could you elaborate?
6.Will the program interface with any online postage programs?
7.Will the program be upgraded AS SOON AS ebay makes a change? THere should be NO DELAY any more.
8.***Will we be REQUIRED to use any other ebay features, such as Billpoint, photo hosting or such?
9.Will the shameless advertising link be removable?
10.Will the program still support Non auction site sales?
11.Clarifications: Is it correct that SAP will NOT be web based, and WILL NOT route mail through ebay's servers?
12.What features or functions will be REMOVED, if any?
13. Have you made sure that your new customer service reps will READ and COMPREHEND our messages before answering? (NOT something ebay is known for.)

I think that is all for now.
And now... philosophical musings:

I can understand the need to charge a fee of some sort. There are almost CONSTANT changes necessary to keep the program up to date; labor is not cheap! although I am not happy; I understand.

One of the unanticipated positive results of the internet are the communities that spring up by way of message boards.
Although AA & AAP are, in reality, just products we have purchased, a community grew and flourished here too! (ebay used to be one...)
This is always the third site I visit in the morning...noon...night. I not only enjoy helping other users, I have also come to "know" some of the other members and enjoyed communicating with them. John, the founder and fearless leader would even pop in sometimes! Heck, for a while, I was even getting to know the support people!

Much of the outrage expressed here tonight is NOT JUST ABOUT MONEY! We have bonded...fought through the swarms of bugs...helped each other master the Beast...welcomed and encouraged others to join...
Come here for support and to support...

John, you should really explore the options of a Grandfather clause. NOT TO SAVE US MONEY, but to really show your gratitude to those of us who helped make SAP what it is today, and will apparently be tomorrow. Sleep on it tonight and really think about it... if you can honestly say that we are nothing more than customers, then so be it.

By Warren Barnes (matchcoverguy) on Tuesday, February 06, 2001 - 11:37 pm:

Larry,

Very well said! I wonder if the Grandfather clause would be something John would have the authority to grant. I have a hunch he is taking direction from Meg, or someone else in San Jose.

By Don Bulger (bardpaper) on Tuesday, February 06, 2001 - 11:37 pm:

I would Like my money back, It does not work right and may never, It is hard to use for over 2 hours with out finding a bug, Don Bulger BardPaper

He takes off the ones he do not Like I put one on and he took it off I just told it like it was , He can not take it off of every auction we put on , WE have been done in Don Bulger BardPaper

By Kevin Hanit (barfan) on Wednesday, February 07, 2001 - 12:03 am:

I have used Pro since the beginning and will continue to use John's software. I remember reading somewhere at one time that a then free program, eBud, went fee based at $39.95 for a year. They will have to raise their fees, if and when they get the eBay API.

It is looking more like all auction management software will be going fee based.

Kevin

By Carl C on Wednesday, February 07, 2001 - 12:14 am:

I have also been designing my business both on ebay and my own web page around AAPro and am not at all happy about this decision. Most of the users of this program, I'm sure, are not large business that can afford to keep adding monthly expenses when this program is only good for use on eBay and maybe for some other sales and not other auction sites.
Since eBay owns this software now I think that if they were to charge a fee it would be a lot less than what is proposed. If they want that kind of money then it should work on other sites.
It looks like I too will be looking for another option, even though I hate to!

By jerry straw on Wednesday, February 07, 2001 - 12:25 am:

Hmmmm.. Let's see. According to Johns figures, 292,644 auctions are currently listed with AA/AAP. If I figure an average of 10 auctions/user, Blackthornes income from the new sub. fee is around 6 million/yr. Not a bad paycheck John. Seems like the average AA user might only pull 200 or 300/month profit. I see John retiring on a yacht somewhere in the carribean. Kewl. Sleep well and don't let the bedbugs bite.

By Bev Strickland on Wednesday, February 07, 2001 - 12:30 am:

Hi, John!

Well, I guess I'll get blasted for this...

I am an AA Classic user from way back when. I never upgraded to Pro because I didn't have the need to. I'm sure that's why my opinion differs so much from the others posting here.

Here goes...I don't see anything wrong with the changes, charges, etc.!

In fact, I was just thinking yesterday (really, I was) that I paid one time for AA Classic and never added another cent until I purchased a megaset. I was wondering to myself...how can you stay in business if all your other customers are like me (purchase the program and get the upgrades for free.) I was actually feeling a little guilty about it. I thought about how many times I have upgraded from dos to Windows 3x to Windows 95, etc, from Works to Word then Word 97 then Office 2000, and the same for other programs. Every one of these upgrades were quite expensive.

I still think that AA is the easiest way to list an item on eBay.

I also think that you and eBay are being VERY generous by giving us a free YEAR of service. And, I can't believe that after a year, I can opt out of the service if I know I won't use it for a month. I have one FREE year to decide whether or not I will like the new changes (I'm certain I will!) For what more can I ask?

Let me be the first to thank you for the service you have provided to so many of us...especially years ago when our other options were so "blah".

I sincerely hope you have make a HUGE amount of money on this deal...I think you deserve it!!!!

Bev

By Alan on Wednesday, February 07, 2001 - 12:33 am:

At a minimum, the current version of the software should be guaranteed to work as it does right now. I can live without the "exciting new eBay features" but I want to be able to manage my auctions, notify bidders, leave feedback, etc.

I fear that as soon as the new version goes live, eBay will make the current version obsolete and unusable. Guess I will be looking around for other companies or ways to run auctions. I find it outrageous to be asked to pay a monthly fee for software that I purchased, and was guaranteed that it would continue to work through minor upgrades as long as I owned it. This is a VERY POOR business decision. You are annoying the people who put you where you are today. I've recommended your product to several other people, since I've been with you since 1998. No longer though, I guess I need to find a new company to work with now.

Alan

By Bradley Griffith on Wednesday, February 07, 2001 - 01:05 am:

Did somebody say "LAWSUIT", "Bait and Switch" All I know is this kind of business practice can't be LEGAL. I thought I owned a software program with lifetime upgrades?!?!?

Just like Nixon - "F*CK the little people"

This is a sad day for Blackthorne.

Brad

By anteeka on Wednesday, February 07, 2001 - 01:12 am:

Bradley, I am sure ebay's legal team has looked this over very carefully. This has no doubt been under consideration and scrutiny for quite some time. I doubt ebay would announce/implement this if they were not pretty darn sure they could legally do so.

By Bradley Griffith on Wednesday, February 07, 2001 - 01:28 am:

anteeka, Don't be so sure. Just as Blackthorne can enter into an agreement and change the rules on the fly, so can the victim of a "bait and switch" seek legal representation. Consumers DO HAVE LEGAL RIGHTS against this type of predatory tactic.

By Frank Osterhoudt (goldeneagle) on Wednesday, February 07, 2001 - 01:37 am:

Larry and Warren (and everyone else!)

Larry, I agree with Warren, "Very well said", but beyond that, you posed many of the specific concerns that most of us share, and you did so in a most dignified way.
However, as I read through the posts, focusing on John's replies, it is becoming more and more apparent to me that we are not only beating a dead horse, but we are beating the wrong horse…. As with all situations such as this, John is most certainly bound by a very strict (and, I’m sure, highly limiting) “Non-Disclosure Agreement” with eBay (Not to mention being the designated “scapegoat”!). The issues that he has addressed are those issues that eBay is permitting him to address and then, only to the extent of what he has been told (allowed) to say. Those issues that he appears to be ignoring the ones that in all likelihood he is not permitted to discuss or comment on. His level of frustration at this point must be overwhelming…. I truly believe that were there a way for him to speak “Off the Record”, we would be listening to a much more compassionate and agreeable tune.
With that said, I feel that it’s time to move on. I am sure that our point has been made with John, and at least for now, he has paid his dues. If any changes to all of this are to ensue, this massive feeling of discontent must be conveyed directly to eBay “in mass” and not through John…..

By Steve1 on Wednesday, February 07, 2001 - 01:38 am:

I'm not pleased with this turn of events, either.

If you're looking for web-based alternatives, you can check out the Online Auction Users Association's review of five web-based management systems here:

http://www.auctionusers.org/eval/wbams.shtml

OAUA will be evaluating the PC-based software management programs (like AA, Invenna's AuctionAmigo, Auctiva's eBud/ePoster, and others) in the next couple months.

By jane coloma on Wednesday, February 07, 2001 - 01:41 am:

I don't have much faith in successful legal action against a multi-billion dollar corporation. Money talks and money almost always wins. As today so blatantly proves. eBay has a highly skilled legal team. The firm of Loophole,Fraud,&Greed I believe.

By anteeka on Wednesday, February 07, 2001 - 02:00 am:

goldeneagle:You are right. eBay runs the show. John only works for them. John has proven to be a man of integrity and concern in my dealings with him over the past 2 1/2 years. Certainly I am very distressed, disheartened, to see him so differently now. I am sure he is disturbed and frustrated by his current situation. But ebay paid/pays him well to endure this. Give it some thought, folks...Given the chance, we all might have chosen just as John has. I like to think not, but in all honesty, I admit I might have. John has worked very hard. He created AA. He chose to sell. I am sure he is being well compensated. He is also paying a price for it, I think. eBay met his price and now he is meeting theirs.

By barbara coffey on Wednesday, February 07, 2001 - 02:02 am:

This stinks. Big time. I've been using AA product 3 years and have invested over $200 on both with the agreement that I would not have to pay again. Stupid I'm not. I just may switch to AW Pro Manager now and not even use the free year.

I'm not a power seller but I still run about 250 auctions a month, lots of books, and One thing for sure is that I sure as hell am not going to pay and additional $16 a month on top of the
regular increased listing fees, final fees and credit card fees.

I've previously used both AW Pro Manager and AA Pro simultaneously by doing my image hosting and listings through AW because I find their listing system quicker to use. BUT I like AAPro after care product better. So I'd simultaneously enter just a title and auction id# into AAPro just so I can use it for my emails and feedback. The two together worked great. But now it looks like I won't even be able to do that.

Like I said this stinks. Lots. I am very very disappointed. And angry too. What a rip off. I feel like I did when my home was burglarized.

By knickknacks on Wednesday, February 07, 2001 - 02:17 am:

John,

Here is a legitimate question for you (which you seem to be taking the time to personally answer). You compare this "change" to paying for an upgrade. Had Auction Assistant remained "status quo", would you have charged $200 for every upgrade? And if so, do you think that would have been acceptable to your customers, and that we would have paid it? I would appreciate an answer.

Thank you.

By jane coloma on Wednesday, February 07, 2001 - 02:42 am:

If I recall correctly, it wasn't long after John Slocum announced he was working on making AA compatible with Yahoo! and other auction sites, the announcement came down that eBay had purchased Blackthorne. I am sure eBay had a major panic attack and made John an offer he simply couldn't refuse. AA on other sites would have created some viable competition for eBay. I believe eBay's original purpose in the acquisition of Blackthorne was to keep AA solely on their site, thereby keeping all the thousands of AA users on their site. eBay is not content to have all the Blackthorne sellers all to themselves. They are killing the goose that lays the golden eggs. Rather than keeping me listing solely on eBay, today's events are making it so much easier for me to pack up my goods and go elsewhere.

By Edward G. Martin on Wednesday, February 07, 2001 - 04:22 am:

Obviously, there are many of us who are mutually affected by this situation. Sure, Ebay & AOL are very large corporations. But… they are not above the law. I'm not an attorney, nor do I practice law, but…. I feel that there must be some sort of legal ramifications or avenue of legal recourse available to us AS A GROUP. Even if there isn’t, if the possibility isn’t investigated, then the battle for fairness and consumer protection has already been lost. Most assuredly, many of us must either personally know, or have access to legal counsel in one form or another. One has to ponder the possibility of collecting information concerning the number of people affected by this, the possibility of collaboration and cooperation to pursue any possible legal recourse that might be available, the possibility that there may be some loophole/missing phrase/or chink in the wording of the license agreement, etc., and forwarding any and all such information to some legal entity for review. Even if we only started our own forum somewhere to exchange ideals and information before this one is shut down. I’m not trying to stand out as a leader or instigator in any way, I simply feel extremely violated, as I’m sure most of you do… And I feel that I would like to do whatever I can to rectify this very wrong action taken by Ebay/Blackthorne. I know that there is nothing I can do as an individual other than raise my voice in protest. Maybe there is a government agency that could offer advice, or somewhere that a letter writing campaign or petition for action could be directed? Maybe someone knows an attorney who could drop in and check out what is going on?? Maybe someone has an ideal/opinion as to what could be done, if anything? An organized one-week boycott of Ebay by all of us, and those that we know that use Ebay (and could talk into a boycott) might send a clear enough message? I even thought about posting some sort of product (tee shirt, banner, etc.) on Ebay itself to convey the message.. (far fetched, and doomed to being pulled.. I know)

Earlier tonight, I got a response to a post I made about a class-action lawsuit that started a dialog between the sender and myself. He made some very valid points about the difficulties and cost involved in pursuing any sort of legal recourse. And he may be entirely correct in pointing out these difficulties… But, to reiterate a previous sentiment, I believe that if one does nothing and lets an adversary have free reign to steam roll right over them without a fight, then the battle for fair play has been lost even before it has begun. Anyway, it can’t hurt to share ideals and research this by any means available to any one of us. Maybe someone has a stellar ideal as an individual that would benefit the group? Maybe no one really cares to pursue this matter any further and would prefer that I simply quit making waves and go away?

Anyway, as further food for thought, repeated below are a couple of paragraphs from my email exchange with the gentleman earlier tonight:


“The mere fact that Ebay bought a software program that ONLY works on their auction
site generates a great deal of connotations on what constitutes monopolistic practices
and control over said software. Look what is going on right now with Microsoft, and
what has happened (and has already been judged to be illegal) with their bundling of
Internet Explorer with Windows in order to gain control in the internet arena. The
Similarities here simply boggle the mind.”
“Firstly, given that there were a chance for a CLASS action lawsuit to be
successful and offer a return, it would most likely entail more than a refund of
$199.00, and most law firms would jump on it without any up front money.
Furthermore, there is an even greater likelihood that the matter would be settled
before even going to court as most companies who are as highly visible as Ebay
don't care to generate such a large amount of negative publicity as such a suit
would bring.”


Suggestions?
Thoughts?
Kudos?
Criticism?

Thanks all for reading.
Yet another victim.

By gwtw4ever on Wednesday, February 07, 2001 - 05:40 am:

HELP!!
FIND US A SUBSTITUTE!!!!!!!
we are still "new" to computer even after having it for 2 years....we CANNOT uploead an auction without HELP that is why we BOUGHT AA)
we have had AA the whole time for the 1 or 2 things a month we sell....
we CANNOT AFFORD to PAY A FEE to upload these occasssional auctions.
SOMEONE FIND A SUBSTITUE and LET US ALL KNOW!!!!
PLEASE!!!!!!!!!!!
the support has been great but increasing sales is what was SUPPOSED to pay for the upgrades etc....
so sad...so sad.........

By Peggy on Wednesday, February 07, 2001 - 05:46 am:

To Edward,

I absolutely agree with everything you said.
I think we do need to band together and do something as a group. Also another forum in
which to discuss this and shares ideas and
thoughts is needed. At this time, I have no
idea how to accomplish this. Perhaps someone
else does. eBay feeds on good publicity. I
think it's time they had not poor publicity, but
real publicity from those of us who have contributed to their growth. I think many people
are unaware that the final value fee is not on
profit we've made, but on what we've already
paid for the items in the first place. In jewelry,you can pay $200 for an item, sell it for
$220 to $250, so the cost of your item became $210
instead of $200 and your profit becomes far less.
I think the general public is unaware of most
things about eBay.


I have been displeased with eBay for a long time,
and my selling reflects that. I've gone from
selling on two sites to only occasionally selling
on one and less than half the usual amount on
others. eBay is not there for us in any way
except to charge fees and to think of new ways
to raise those fees. We are constantly being
ripped off by people we buy from who misrepresent
their product but drag the process out so long,
we cannot even get apply for insurance to
the buyers who send bad checks. There, too, you
listen to five or six letters of excuses before
you realize they are not going to pay, and so
cannot even get your final value fee. eBay says to
wait for checks to clear - I received one bad one
back nearly six weeks after I deposited it. We
would be slammed with negatives all over the
place if we waited six weeks to mail an item.

To repeat what others have said, any response
from eBau is a noncommittal, canned one that we knew we would receive before we even wrote.

I think we should research this, most likely
start a class action suit, which as people have
mentioned, generally is taken by the law firm on
a contingency basis. This would be a high profile
case and worth far more than money to any attorney.

As Edward said, if anyone has an attorney for
a friend or close acquaintance, perhaps they
can get information for us on the best way to
proceed. As most of us do, I put in many hard
hours for very little profit, and it's becoming
less and less. Scan any of the specific
searches, and you'll see how much less activity
there is than a year or two ago. I would be
certainly willing to work hard on this if we can
come up with a game plan.

By Bob G. on Wednesday, February 07, 2001 - 05:59 am:

The only reason I decided to purchase your software was because it was a ONE TIME charge. I think you are dealing in bad faith when you change the rules from when I originally purchased your program. Im curious how a court would rule on taking away our ability to use the program as promised without having to pay additional fees. If you want to change, fine. But those of us who entered into this business transaction should be Grandfathered into staying with the contract we entered into and continue getting our upgrades free.

By Cliff Freemark on Wednesday, February 07, 2001 - 06:24 am:

John ,and company---Will you buy back this misrepresented AA-PRO, program licence which you seem to think is so valuable ..As near as I can see you value it at $3000.00 because of the $180.00 per year you want me to pay for it ,which is 6% of $3000.00 so I will offer you a deal--you can have it back for $2000.00 which is less than you value it at, or do I just throw it in the garbage ,which means that it is worth nothing and you are just trying to be a bandit...More Seriously now ,I will pay you the $16.00 per month if you pay me the $0.10 per hit your advertising should be worth..that means you will be sending me a check every month for $20-$80.And maybe ebay will do the same thing too, to all it's customers for all the free ,until now,ADVERTISING, that they get.One thing I have to admit the EGOS are big in the southwest.An auction selling approx 10% of its' goods at fair or better---60% at from 10-35% of fair and the other 30% with no bids at all, sounds to me to have their heads stuck somewhere ,smelly perhaps,that they can't see what is going on--and they want more money??? Your program is adequate,only,I think it was overpriced at the original price, not wonderful, but perhaps you too had your head somewhere strange if you think it is worth $3000.I hope you had a gratifying amount of positive feedback tonight,If you were selling on the open market auctions,I think you received enough negatives to be permanently banned from selling, because I don't think one person could rack up several hundred negatives in one night.The point is DO YOU GET THE MESSAGE.........REGARDS, CLIFF

By Dj on Wednesday, February 07, 2001 - 06:45 am:

I Have never left a message in one of these Forums before. I have been an Auction Assistant Classic and Pro User since the beginning myself. Let's break down the numbers..

DSL Connection $49.99 A Month
AOL Bring Your Own $9.95 A Month
50 AUctions per week
Times 4.(200 a month) $60.00 A Month .30 Post Fees
Average of 45% Credit
Card Transactions $27.00 A Month @.30 more


THat's a total of almost $150 A month ALready NOT INCLUDING FINAL VALUE FEES OR MONTHLY "UPGRADE" FEES!

And people who use ebay auctions as a source of income Definitely post more than 50 auctions per week.

I Would Gladly Pay a $50 Dollar a year subscription for upgrades, OR $50 Per major upgrade as they come out once or twice a year! But this is insane. THis is going to affect peoples way of life if this actually goes through! At least for people who depend on online auctions as a full or part time source of income. I can't Believe Fellow Pennsylvanians would actually let this happen. I Pray to God that this Proposed Deal can Be Changed. Think of all the people it could hurt.
Patiently Waiting an outcome in all this.
Dj

By mermac.com on Wednesday, February 07, 2001 - 06:51 am:

John,
You say the measure of your integrity lies with whether you provide value for what is charged.

WRONG!!! One measure of a man's integrity is how he keeps his word. An honest man will keep his word regardless of financial concerns. Selling out your loyal customers and having integrity are mutually exclusive.

You've traded your integrity for financial gain.
Please don't speak to us of integrity, I don't think you are qualified any longer.
Here's a question for you:
"What does it profit a man if he gains the whole world, but loses his Soul in the bargain?"

Dave
ebay seller mermac.com

By Dick Goldsmith on Wednesday, February 07, 2001 - 08:11 am:

John
Well it has been a good 2 years and 3 months, sure there were some problems in the beginning, but nothing that really kept me from listing with AA Classic.
I disagree with your changes, selling a program does not mean a monthly fee.
Looks like the clock is ticking, 12 more months and the end is coming.
Thanks for the good times old friend, and I appreciate the notice of the changes coming, this gives me 12 months to find a new listing service.
Adios
KICKED AGAIN.
(eBay) icedecoy

By Bert Stamler on Wednesday, February 07, 2001 - 08:32 am:

I have to agree with goldeneagle's post above, we're beating a dead horse here. John sold the goods to ebay and likely has no more power to say how it will be "marketed". The proper forum for this discussion is EBAY!

You'll notice that John led us away from ebay by giving the link to this off-ebay discussion board such high visibility in his email message. No doubt the watchdogs at ebay want to stay arm's length from our obvious and public dissatisfaction with the way they've decided to treat loyal customers. I think it was a deliberate move to distract us from placing the blame where it really "lies" - the new owners of AA and AAPro - EBAY!

Let's all move on and post our thoughts where they will reach the most people and let them in on the situation. Here's the link to the Ebay Chat/Discussion board for "Discuss Ebay's Newest Features" - http://cgi3.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewBoard&name=uifeedback

Also available is the "Ebay Q&A Board" where we can alert other users to Ebay's latest ploy to keep their hands in your pocket -
http://cgi3.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewBoard&name=qa

By KELLY on Wednesday, February 07, 2001 - 09:15 am:

OK, I JUST LISTED UNDER EACH OF THOSE EBAY LINKS!! EVERYONE JOIN IN! WE SHOULD REALLY FLOOD THEIR BOARDS WITH OUR LETTERS! JUST CUT AND PASTE THE MESSAGES YOU HAVE ALREADY LEFT HERE.

By knickknacks on Wednesday, February 07, 2001 - 09:18 am:

FYI: Here is the "agreement" we all agreed to when installing AAPro (I'm certain AA Classic is similar). I find it quite interesting... particularly the part that says "Either party may terminate this Agreement immediately in the event of default by the other party." Does this mean I can terminate this agreement since the other party (YOU) defaulted & can have my money refunded?!?!?!

User License Agreement for Blackthorne Software

Before using this software, you must read and agree to this licensing agreement. If you disagree with any part, you will not be allowed to run the software, and you may return it for a full refund.

This user license agreement (the AGREEMENT) is an agreement between you (individual or single entity) and BLACKTHORNE SOFTWARE, for the BLACKTHORNE SOFTWARE (the SOFTWARE) that is accompanying this AGREEMENT.

The SOFTWARE is the property of BLACKTHORNE SOFTWARE and is protected by copyright laws and international copyright treaties. The SOFTWARE is not sold, it is licensed.

By purchasing this software, you are hereby granted one (1) licensed copy.

LICENSED VERSION

The LICENSED VERSION means an original fully working version of the SOFTWARE. If you accept the terms and conditions of this AGREEMENT, you
have certain rights and obligations as follow:

YOU MAY:

1. Install and use one copy of the SOFTWARE on a single computer.
2. Install a second copy of the SOFTWARE on a second computer only if you are the main user of this computer (home computer or laptop for example).
3. Install the SOFTWARE on another computer only if you change your main workstation. In such a case you must uninstall the software from the old computer.
4. Make a single (1) copy of the SOFTWARE for archival purposes only.

YOU MAY NOT:

1. Copy and distribute the SOFTWARE or any portion of it.
2. Sublicense, rent, lease or transfer your personal license.
3. Sublicense, rent or lease the SOFTWARE or any portion of it.
4. Decompile, disassemble, reverse engineer or modify the SOFTWARE or any portion of it.
5. Copy the documentation accompanying the SOFTWARE.


DISCLAIMER OF DAMAGES

The SOFTWARE is supplied "AS IS". In no event shall BLACKTHORNE SOFTWARE be liable for any damages whatsoever (including, with limitation, damages for loss of business profits, business interruption, or other pecuniary loss) arising out of the use or inability of this BLACKTHORNE SOFTWARE product, even if BLACKTHORNE has been advised of such damages. The user must assume the entire risk of using the SOFTWARE.


TERMINATION

Either party may terminate this Agreement immediately in the event of default by the other party. Upon any termination of this Agreement,
you shall immediately discontinue the use of the Software and shall within ten (10) days return to BLACKTHORNE SOFTWARE all copies of the Software. You may also terminate this Agreement at any time by destroying the Software and Documentation and all copies thereof. Your obligations to pay accrued charges and fees shall survive any
termination of this Agreement.


WARRANTY DISCLAIMER

The software programs are provided "AS-IS", without warranty of any kind, either expressed or implied. The entire risk as to the performance of the programs is with the purchaser. BLACKTHORNE SOFTWARE does not warrant that the operation of the program will be uninterrupted or error-free.
BLACKTHORNE SOFTWARE assumes no responsibility or liability of any kind for errors in the programs or documentation, or for the consequences of any
such errors.

By David Koehler (nosman) on Wednesday, February 07, 2001 - 09:19 am:

Well, let's see. I have over $200 bucks that haven't actually paid for themselves in the 3 months owned and still does not do what was advertised. In particular I still can't upload to EBay motors unattended, singly or in batch mode. I can't tell you how much that aggravates me.
And now you want to rent the thing!!?? Get real.
I can handle a reasonable upgrade charge IF something actually gets upgraded after a year of bug fixes. Get real. So far we have done all the work with the beta add ons.
Software subscription never worked. The paperwork alone has to be a nightmare. I hate lawyers but I have to really look at this deal since I don't have the promised capabilities.
I called three people this morning that I had recommended this to and told them to ash can the deal and start looking around.
Very disappointing. Ruined my day. Guess I will stick with my buggy non capable AApro until Blackthorne comes to their senses. Get real.
I will never subscribe. Never. Never. Never.
David Koehler
Koehler Injection www.koehlerinjection.com

By KELLY on Wednesday, February 07, 2001 - 09:32 am:

COME ON YOU GUYS, THEY ARE JUST FLAT OUT LYING TO US!! I UNDERSTAND THE PART OF PAYING A SMALL MONTH FEE FOR SMALL IMPROVEMENTS, BUT $200 A YEAR IS NOT AN IMPROVEMENT, IT IS SIMPLY RENTING AN ENTIRELY NEW PROGRAM, AFTER ALL, THEY ARE EVEN NAMING IT DIFFERENTLY!!!!!!!!! IF IT WAS THE SAME PROGRAM, WHY WOULD THEY HAVE TO DO THAT? THIS IS NOT AN UPGRADE, WHICH IS ONLY THERE TO ENHANCE THE PERFORMANCE OF WHAT YOU HAVE ALREADY, THIS IS BLATANT "BAIT AND SWITCH". AND ABOUT THE "SUPPORT" THAT WE ARE GETTING, DO WE WANT OR NEED IT?? BY THE WAY, HAS ANYONE EVER SPOKEN TO JOHN PERSONALLY? IF YOU WANT THE OFFICE PHONE NUMBER IT IS 570 888 5771, I USED TO CALL TO CHIT CHAT, EVEN CALLED TO CONGRATULATE HIM LAST DECEMBER WHEN EBAY BOUGHT THE CO. CANT BELIEVE I WAS SO NIEVE . . .

By Lino Marchetti on Wednesday, February 07, 2001 - 09:45 am:

I am so sorry that I have been recommending your product to people. Now I will be telling them to STAY AWAY. And me, I'll be spending the next couple of days looking for another company to provide this service. I won't be waiting a year to get rid of you, that's for sure...I don't even like looking at your name on my screen anymore.

By KELLY on Wednesday, February 07, 2001 - 09:57 am:

HEY JOHN YOU STILL HERE? OR HIDING YOUR HEAD IN THE SAND? EVERYONE READING THIS, DO YOU REALLY THINK A REP FROM EBAY IS GOING TO READ OUR COMPLAINTS ON THIS SITE?? THE OTHER PERSON SAID IT RIGHT, EBAY IS ALSO HIDING THEIR HEAD IN THE SAND, THAT IS WHY THEY ARE HAVING US GO TO THIS SIGHT, RATHER THEN HAVING A DISCUSSION ON EBAY, LETS CHANGE THAT!! WE SHOULD NOT BE ON THIS FORUM, POSTING OUR COMMENTS!! GO TO EBAY, AND USE THEIR DISCUSSION ROOMS TO DO IT! "MAYBE" THEN THEY WILL TAKE NOTICE OF US?
Here's the link to the Ebay Chat/Discussion board for "Discuss Ebay's Newest Features" - http://cgi3.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewBoard&name=uifeedback
THERE IS ALREADY A BUNCH OF PEOPLE TALKING, IF ANYTHING ELSE, JUST SUBMIT A COPY OF WHAT YOU HAVE ALREADY SAID HERE . . .

By Pam Greer (scrappycat) on Wednesday, February 07, 2001 - 09:58 am:

I purchased the upgrade to PRO in December, so I have barely used it for 2 months! So, here is my deal for Blackthorne. Since I purchased (excuse me) rented the program in December and have used it for 2 months ($31.98), I will send you back the CD, and you can refund me $167.02, and then you can terminate our rental agreement..we did have a rental agreement...didn't we?

By Kraig White on Wednesday, February 07, 2001 - 10:00 am:

John,

Give me a break here!!! I totally agree with what most people are saying here. With all the software I use and own yours will be by far the most pricy if you go with this crazy plan to charge a monthly fee. I don't pay $200 a year for any software and that includes software that does FAR FAR more that your software does. Even Microsoft doesn't charge that much for the whole Microsoft Office Suite!!!!!!which is far more complex that your programs. I believe that you have been deceptive in the way you have delt with your customers and if you continue in this route GREED will be your downfall. I hate to break the news to you, but AA Pro, or whatever you want to call it now IS NOT WORTH $200 PER YEAR! I am already looking for an alternative to Ebay and your AA Pro. I will be the first to support an quality listing program. In the past I have highly recommended your program, but no longer. I WILL NOT recomend your software to Anyone, in fact I will discourage it greatly. I list 200 - 300 items per week and in my area I am the guy that many people turn to for advice on computers and software. I and am getting killed with all the nickle and dime fees. This is not ethical!! Why calls the shots here you or ebay?? I am more than willing to purchase upgrades at a reasonable price. If you deliver a quality product I will purchase it. I will not pay a monthly fee to rent of lease or whatever you want to call it. This is just crazy!! You have tricked us into believing in you and your company and then you pull the rug out from under our feet.

Kraig

By jerry straw on Wednesday, February 07, 2001 - 10:02 am:

Let's face facts; the EULA has us (literally) over a barrel. In legal speak, they provided nothing and we agreed we got nothing in return for our money. That is the essence of a good EULA. We just donated our money, so to speak. Sorry, so sorry.

By KELLY on Wednesday, February 07, 2001 - 10:03 am:

HEY, BY THE WAY, HOW DID EVERYONE HERE LEARN OF THIS YESTURDAY? I ONLY GOT A GLIMPS OF IT AT EBAY'S ANN. BOARD, WHICH I RARELY READ ANYWAY. HECK, YOU WOULD THINK THEY WOULD AT LEAST SEND US ALL A LETTER? I OWN BOTH COPIES, AND WAS ONE OF THE FRIST PEOPLE TO BUY EACH ONE, WHY WASN'T I PERSONALLY NOTIFIED OF THESE CHANGES?

By anteeka on Wednesday, February 07, 2001 - 10:12 am:

Kelly: I, too, learned about this on the eBay Announcement Board. I did not receive notification, either. Talk about adding insult to injury.

By KELLY on Wednesday, February 07, 2001 - 10:16 am:

ANTEEKA, I JUST WANT TO SCREAM!! why are they treating us like this, just because they have more money, so they can? THEY HAVE OUR MONEY, not THEIRS! they are riding around in nice cars, living in huge houses THAT WE PAID FOR!! and we are trying to figure out if buying a new $25 keyboard will fit in our budget this week!

By madder then hell on Wednesday, February 07, 2001 - 10:21 am:

ok, ebay has sent me several free tee shirts over the years, i have burned one of them (much like "buring bras") and currently have it for sale, how much are you willing to bid?

By madder then hell on Wednesday, February 07, 2001 - 10:24 am:

ok, ebay has sent me several free tee shirts over the years, i have burned one of them (much like "buring bras") and currently have it for sale, how much are you willing to bid?

By madder then hell on Wednesday, February 07, 2001 - 10:26 am:

by the way, the highest bidder will also get my $200 cd from AA, which has just had an encounter with my cars tires.

The highest bidder will also be my assistant on my new web page Esucks.com

By John Slocum (jslocum) on Wednesday, February 07, 2001 - 10:29 am:

An email to customers was sent out to the email addresses we have on file before the announcement on the eBay board. I am sorry if any of you did not receive this email.

John

By Neil on Wednesday, February 07, 2001 - 10:44 am:

Your announcement sent 02/06/01 at 5:16 Pm received by my server on 02/07/01 at 10:22:25 am. Hope your new improved AA software works better than your email program.

By Drew Menser on Wednesday, February 07, 2001 - 11:00 am:

Sounds a lot like Microsoft. We pay to 'use' your software, even when it is full of bugs. What do we get, oh, sorry about that, our techs are working hard to fix the problems.
I will NOT be using Blackthorne software once my copy no longer functions as it was purchased to do. I will look somewhere else.
I only hope everyone who agrees with me about this also takes their business somewhere else.
Maybe the users should charge Blackthorne $5.00 each time WE sell something on eBay since we are doing their advertising.
What a crock!

By Cynthia Lutes (sindys) on Wednesday, February 07, 2001 - 11:03 am:

Wow i only got grade 8 twice and its taken me forever to learn the auction asst pro, and still i;m not doing it all right. and i'm a Canadian and OUCH these prices for me to pay monthly are in U.S. funds, wow thats alot in Can funds, i just don;t know what i will do, for now i guess i;ll just sit back read and watch and see what happens, but wow its starting to cost way to much to sell on ebay, and its not all ebays fault, even paypal got in on it to charge you more, and even the post office, and just wait the goverment is just around the corner they will be next.

By anteeka on Wednesday, February 07, 2001 - 11:04 am:

Kelly, John created and owned AA. It was his business to do as he saw fit. If he has a nice car and a big house, great. That is what business is all about, making money. However, business/money are not mutually exclusive to ethics/integrity. In other words unethical business means accruing profits at the expense of one's integrity. Anything can be justified for the money. Including all of us deciding to stay on with eBay/Blackthorne. This puts us all in a moral dilemma, IMO.

By shoedude@cdsnet.net on Wednesday, February 07, 2001 - 11:06 am:

John no e-mail was received at this address!!!! I suggest that we all go on strike against these guys. Don't use e-bay or Blackthorne for a week or so and see if that might get there attention. Also there is a way to delete there logo off your adds. You may e-mail me if you want to know. Also if we can all stick together we can make a difference.

By anascurios (anascurios) on Wednesday, February 07, 2001 - 11:11 am:

John,

I have not received the email announcement you refer to above. I learned of this through the daily update in AAPro. I'm not happy. I may continue to use AAPro during the first year, but I will be looking for another system...or I'll revert to my 'do it yourself' system, time-consuming as it was...I will not pay $16/mo for an auction management tool as long as I'm capable of managing auctions myself without it.

Also, I'd like my comments to be removed from your testimonial page. I've already contacted the 6 people I encouraged to buy AA and apologized.

Ana

By lloyd lehn on Wednesday, February 07, 2001 - 11:25 am:

I share everyone's frustration with this announcement. I don't believe it going to be a commercial success. While I would like my money back, I am sure I will never see a penny of it. I certainly regret telling some of my friends to use AAP. I expect that the system is so big now that all we can do it walk away from it and try something else. That is not the way to run a buisness for the long haul.

By jane coloma on Wednesday, February 07, 2001 - 11:29 am:

No e-mail received in my inbox as of this time. Gee, where are all of these emails? ==== I estimate I sent over 100 people to Blackthorne. Many contacted me through eBay. Many were personal friends. I know of 12 who purchased AA through my recommendation. I am sending my regrets and apologies letters today. I also request my comments be removed from the Testimonials page. I can no longer recommend this product in good faith.

By nancybessler on Wednesday, February 07, 2001 - 11:30 am:

What a creative new way to get more money from the loyal Ebay sellers and Blackthorne Users! Congratulations on another innovative move to squeeze us dry! I am going to do everything in my power to find another program to use. I am retired and deal only in small ticket items... my profits are consistently being chipped away by increasing listing prices, special charges for 10 day auctions, etc. etc. etc. And now THIS! Unbelievable! Hopefully people will be angry enough to boycott this new move!

By bob on Wednesday, February 07, 2001 - 11:34 am:

I received a copy of the message last night from a friend (whom I talked into buying AA. Sorry about that!) What I found to be most insulting was the opening of the letter. "I am pleased to announce some exciting news!" how stupid do the people at E-bay & Blackthorn take us for. The exciting news was that they were releasing an upgrade that should be done as part of what we paid for in the first place. Did they really think that we would be exited about paying a monthly fee for something we already bought. Give me a break. I'm sure it is exciting for them, as they seen big $$ signs as they devised this wonderful, exciting plan. I have grown to expect rate increases from the Post office, UPS, E-bay, and everyone else involved in profiting from us online auction sellers. I knew that the Paypal deal was too good to be true, and it was. But I was blind sided by Blackthorn, as I thought this was the only sure thing that I could not be nickled & dimed for. My god was I that stupid not to see it coming when E-bay got their greedy fingers in on this? I have always been a defender of E-bay even when I was being kick in the ass by them because they have made me a lot of money and saved my butt in the winter month's when I had no other means to feed my family. But I am getting so sick of their S**T. This whole thing is becoming a big joke. When will it all end? who else is going to put a gun to our heads and demand more money for something we should not have to pay for? This is nothing more than extortion....Plain and simple. They have us over a barrel and they know it. If there were another auction site with the buyers and items that E-bay has, 95% of all e-bay users would switch in a heartbeat (myself included) but all the rest of the auctions are jokes and we all know it. It will be almost impossible for any new auction site to topple the Mighty, arrogant E-bay. I am so disgusted by this I can hardly think straight. I will continue to use this program until e-bay makes the fatal program change that will render this program useless to all who fail to pay their extortion money and I will then find another program. From now on, I will no longer be loyal to anyone. As I now see this is a cut throat bussines and it's everyone for himself. Screw the little people who made us rich. I'm sure within the next year someone will jump on the opportunity to create something better than AA. I will buy it, use it and be ready when they knife me in the back too. I will NEVER pay a monthly fee. NEVER! I will also remove all Blackthorn advertising from my listings. Thanks for my opportunity to vent.
BOB

By Jon Gilman (pfantom) on Wednesday, February 07, 2001 - 11:39 am:

John:

History tells all:

The Source

Delphi

Genie

Compuserve

I can name more.

All are either gone, or have lost a major portion of their market share due to the complete stupidity of trying to sell a subscription service in a market that finds them abhorent.

Rethink this.

By miketrack on Wednesday, February 07, 2001 - 11:48 am:

Here is my $0.02. I have been using auction assistant for sometime now, and have recomended it to everyone I know that uses eBay. I have put up with the software bugs, explorer crashes, missing information, and still use it to this day. Now as for the fee's this is a eBay squeeze in my opinion, not from John. eBay is really starting to take to much from the ones that have made eBay what it is today. Like butterfields (an eBay company), Blackthorne Software (an eBay company) this hurts our pockets more than anything the ones who pay you folks. You hit us from the listing, to "rental fees", to straight competition (Butterfields) all the money is going to eBay that is so sickining to me. eBay I am hopiing you will be worth what eToys is worth one day if you keep this up!!

By Grom Ick (grom) on Wednesday, February 07, 2001 - 11:50 am:

I'm not going to reiterate all the reason previously posted as to why I will not continue using this software.

Ebay are a bunch of right wing controlling freaks that dont give a %&$#$ about their users or the small business attempt at trying to make a living. I am disgusted at Ebay and wait for the day that all the crap they have been pulling finally brings them down, and other auction sites can take up the slack..

Ebay has caused me nothing but problems. Anything they can do to stop you making money, they will. They are not for free enterprise, but seem to reflect a Hitler style dictatorship, and guess who they are trying to slaughter.

By Penny Sunser (psunser) on Wednesday, February 07, 2001 - 12:05 pm:

I can see that I'm going to be in the minority here. But, did you really think John could upgrade for free forever! Some rough estimates ... by using AAP I save over 20 hrs week, over 2+ years = 2000 hours. Estimated investment of $200 = 10 cents an hour. WOW ... are you willing to work for that! AAP did! For those of you who aren't using some of the latest updates or betas ... you have no idea of the time saving features.I'm not happy about the monthly costs. But, then again, it's a year down the road. Wonder what the cost of alternatives will be then. Not to mention the fact that "The previous versions of both products will continue to work. They will not, however, be updated to support new eBay selling features. “ John! If you have any influence on the decision ... some sort of grandfathered lower rate, would go a long way towards building customer relations and client loyalty.

By ciafnisher on Wednesday, February 07, 2001 - 12:13 pm:

I really don't understand how you can do this. i feel like i have been bent over and i'm taking it the A*S. I have been reading everyones statments I really don't need to say anything it all here youv'e screwed us.I'am very upset by this. I believe that everyone should become a thorn in yourside and find out if there is anyway we can sue at least for us to get back what we spent on the program. It is unfair to us all. I don't do auctions monthly so for me it would be a waste of money.I will find a new program or maybe design one myself.

By Pam Heiderstadt (hido7) on Wednesday, February 07, 2001 - 12:14 pm:

Hey,

This email thing is a definite lie. I ALWAYS GET emails for upgrades, so it seeems a little unreal that I didn't get an email concerning this. I happened upon it by accident, while looking for a resolution for my profit loss report problem. Business is business, screw who you can, it's okay, the rest of the world does it. John Boy will survive, because of ebay. Lest not to fool ourselves. How many sellers are still using ebay after all the bitching and moaning when they raised their fee. How many sellers still use paypal after all their additional fee garbage? So my profit will be a little bit less, I am still making a profit. I will be looking for new ways to increase my profit and decrease my costs. Tutuloo. I THINK RAPED IS THE OPERATIVE WORD ANY HOW. I just bought the program recently, thought THAT BETA meant program is not complete--gawd knows hoe buggy it still is. I felt orginally paying 200 for a BETA was a bit unfair, but I like the BETA program! And when I called Blackthorne before I purchased the program, I was told that the upgrade and Final would be free because while I am paying for a BETA, it is not the final release version. WHAT AN ABSOLUTE LIE. WISH I RECORED THAT, BUT THEN THAT WOULD HAVE BEEN ILLEGAL. About as illegal as BAIT AND SWITCH. YOu probaly could have a class action lawsuit, and while I am sure Ebay has covered all angles, people in numbers count. Dateline, 60 Minutes....might amke an interesting program. Think I will start with "5 onb your side" or "4 in you corner", local consumer ripoff news additions. I live in a very small state, and they NEED these type reports to survive. I might generate enough interest to make the bog news magazine shows. Hey Ebay seem to make the headlines often enough, why not give it a try. I cann see charging NEW AAP users a fee, but those of us who bought the AAPro program while it was a BETA, shouild have some grandfather clause like no Ebays Fees or at least a Discount somewhere.

Band together--that what we need to do and post like hell everywhere.

By Bradley Griffith on Wednesday, February 07, 2001 - 12:21 pm:

madder than hell

You want me to bid on that crap.
Hell, you should pay me to take that s*it off your hands!!!!

I think that this all started when Clinton was not held to the laws. It has sent a message that it is perfectly fine to lie if it serves you Personal interest. eBay's Personal interest is $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ and more $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
I agree with the sentiment that we need to UNITE, BOYCOT, SEEK LEGAL REPRESENTATION and SPREAD THE WORD.
Businesses that practice this kind of predatory action usaly get theirs in the end.
Brad

By kershen121 on Wednesday, February 07, 2001 - 12:43 pm:

Without going into too much rhetoric about eBay and how they have changed the way that they do business and what a bunch of greedy bastards they are. I just want to say that this is a bad idea that will wind up costing you loyal users such as myself. You didn't give away your software in the first place and this mornings message was delivered in a way that made me feel as if I was viewed as some kind of an idiot as I'm sure everyone else who received it felt. My fees to eBay each month top $400, so it isn't as if their not already sticking their money stick up my ass. This really takes the cake. I would like to say that Blackthorne has been one of those real company's that were always a pleasure to do business with. When eBay decided to buy the company I knew something like this was bound to happen somewhere down the road. eBay has become a buyers paradise lately but it's the sellers who continue to take it in the keyster. Slowly but surely they have sneakily raised the commission fees and now this! What next?

By Jeffrey Miller (willowood) on Wednesday, February 07, 2001 - 12:49 pm:

Just for the record I also did not get an email.

Maybe someone forgot to pay the rent on the automated email program:-)

By Jon Gilman (pfantom) on Wednesday, February 07, 2001 - 01:06 pm:

Penny:

I would also pay a normal fee for upgrades. Symantec charges between 40-60.00 per upgrade, not 200.00 per year. they must continually update against every computer virus, and every change made to microsoft's Windows program.

This is just foolish and greedy. It is following a bad business outline that has actually caused many companies to become extinct.

By Jon Gilman (pfantom) on Wednesday, February 07, 2001 - 01:08 pm:

Symantec also upgrades almost every year. They discontinue the virus defs on the old program after a few years I believe.

By DMEYER on Wednesday, February 07, 2001 - 01:14 pm:

WOW! It seems John has opened a major point of contention. I've been an Auction Assistant Classic/Pro owner since March of 1998, and I've recommended AA to a number of users here in the North East.

From the reaction, many of the users want the option of a replacement software package. OK! how many of you are Visual Basic 6, or Visual C++ programmers? How many of you are ACCESS developers?

WELL I AM!, and you know what I'm going to do? You guessed it .... I'm going to make my own program.

If you're like me ... fearlessly independent ... you can contact me at Meyer2@gwi.net

By jerry straw on Wednesday, February 07, 2001 - 01:20 pm:

We have been looking at this all wrong. What does business do when confronted with increased costs? Answer: Pass the expense along to the customer. That is the intent of ebay and it should be ours as well. Everyone should create a new catagory of expense behind shipping and handling and insurance called "ebay overhead expense". Put it in the tax message box of ad studio and make it a percentage of sale, say 1 or 2 percent. Your customers will gripe, but where else will they go to get deals that we offer. We have Johns example of how to deal with that. Even hough I get paid like a migrant worker to toil on ebay, it's not quite like work. And even though we get our heads bashed like baby seals, it could be worse. This same situation happened to me in another business and passing on the expense so pi**ed off the authority that they stopped charging it. All the heat went to the authority. We can even get a jump on BT/ebay by charging the fee immediately, before the charges kick in.

By GaryR on Wednesday, February 07, 2001 - 01:24 pm:

Let me add my voice to the frustrated voice of others. I have never entered a comment in a discussion group although I read the discussions each day. I am a relatively new user (buyer of AA Pro) and have been most satisfied (not buggy as some have stated).
I purchased AA Pro, although I thought it was a little pricey, only after researching and "test driving" a number of other auction management software programs. I was particularly impressed with AA Pro because of the professional look, the intuitive ease of use and the fact that it can be used off line (client vs. server based). I also liked the "small community" feel of the users as presented in discussion groups and their close relationship with John. Tech support was also very prompt and helpful.
I knew I had made thew right decision in selecting AA Pro and was anxiously awaiting the next upgrade. The disappiontment and frustration I felt when reading John's letter that we would be charged "rent" for the program are hard to describe. I am very supportive of AAPro and would be willing to pay an annual maintenance/upgrade fee as is charged by many commercial software companies. Their annual fee is generally 20-25 % of the purchase price. In the case of AAPro this would mean an annual maintenance fee of $40-50 which I think most users would feel is a reasonable price.
Hopefully, based on the outpouring of frustrations, ebay will reconsider their "rental" position.

Gary

By Nancy Hanna on Wednesday, February 07, 2001 - 02:06 pm:

Add me to your very fast growing list of unsatisfied customers.

I have been contacted by bidders asking why I have raised prices on my otherwise low items. I told them..ebay raises thier fees so I have no alternative but to raise mine. At one time, we used to make some good spending money through ebay selling. Now, we are lucky to make back our listing and other fees. I have personally been contacted by 23 other sellers who wanted to sell me their inventory so they could get out. And this was because of Ebay raising their fees.

Now, I ask you...instead of raising fees and adding all these other expenses for the sellers, why don't you charge the buyers a fee for buying on ebay? because THEY WON'T PAY! Well...neither will I. I am so fed up with Ebay right now, that I am pulling my inventory and getting rid of the whole lot! I have had buyers beg me to stay as they like what I have to sell. I am simply going to tell them to contact ebay and voice their frustrations with them.

I knew as soon as Ebay decided to buy BS, it would go downhill. I never anticipated such high costs for a product I purchased! How dare you think that after all the users of AA have purchased this program that they would continue to pay more each month for the pleasure of using it. Why should they? It is full of bugs, is reliable only about 30% of the time, and creates more work. And I thought it would be more convenient using this software. I have had it for some time now and can't even get the thing to run right. I purchased some of the megasets and still have not been able to use them. Blackthorne has never been able to provide me with any type of assistance on this...another waste of my money.

And now, on top of everything else you want more money? Has Ebay ever thought that if they left Blackthorne alone, they would not now be in the red, and would not need to charge these horrendous fees?

Ebay is going downhill fast. I have noticed a very large decrease in sales over the past months, and it is not just me. I know several other sellers that aren't even making their fees each month. Buyers are fed up with the way Ebay is ignoring problem sellers...I have seen one seller who has over 350 negatives AND IS STILL SELLING. Can't they fix the other problems before creating more by charging us additional fees?

I for one would never purchase a car outright only to be told a year later that I would have to pay the manufacturer a monthly fee to use it. And I won't do it with computer software either.

You know it is bad when faithful buyers send you links to other great auction sites!

Sign me
disgusted

By jerry straw on Wednesday, February 07, 2001 - 02:23 pm:

Ya know somthing. I just remembered when ebay hammered us all about
charging extra fees for shipping and hanlding. They assumed that boxes for
shipping appeared out of the ether and packing material fell like mana from heaven and they pontificated that it was abusing the customers to do so. Well, what a difference a year makes. I now think that passing on the user fee as a tax is entirely appropriate. I know that it will p**s of ebay but they p**s me off. I put my 40hrs in on the net after my 40hr work week for what? to hear a sermon about abuse and watch them become millionaires by abusing me? I don't think so. How do you explain this John?

By Anonymous Jane on Wednesday, February 07, 2001 - 02:28 pm:

After reading many more of the posts, I have given this much more thought. Perhaps this is a solution:

Blackthorne charges those currently using the software a small yearly fee...say $25 or so. The new comers will be charged the full price, as they have the option of not spending their money, where as those who have the program have already spent that money.

The 2nd part of this agreement would be that blackthorne agrees to pay each individual a small sum ..say 2 cents for every auction they list that has an advertisement for blackthorne. After all, it is OUR auctions, OUR inventory and OUR time.

I believe if blackthorne agrees to pay us a small fee for letting them put their names in our listings, we could agree to a charge for using software we already own. But, until then, I won't pay.

By the way John, this is not personal with you. Relax, sit and read these posts. Then, at the end of the day, send them to the big wig in ebay. After all, they are telling you what to do. No sense in you getting stressed because they are being unreasonable. Right?

Look forward to seeing the announcement that blackthorne and ebay will pay US to post items that they make money on as well.

Or, perhaps since Ebay is running blackthorne now, why not just bite the bullet and allow those who currently own blackthorne to list free? Why? They are already losing their shirts with unsatisfied customers, they don't want to be caught losing their pants as well..not that there is anything under there to hide

By kelly on Wednesday, February 07, 2001 - 03:07 pm:

THIS IS IN NO WAY INTENDED TO DEFEND OR ACCEPT EBAYS DECISIONS, JUST TO MAKE YOU READERS THINK A BIT:
There are still people out there that think that the internet, and ebay are easy and fast ways of making gobs of money, if you intend to use the internet as a sole source of income, and run it as a full time business, then I really think that you might agree with me that the "overhead" is truly comparable to a physical storefront. Maybe the only difference is that you are not FORCED to pay taxes/business fees here YET, although if you were running it as a "real" business you would be doing so. This is what I mean:
if you were to open a store, once the initial costs of furniture,and displays, maybe some paint and carpeting were over, you would never need to UPGRADE anything, not would you have to PAY for any type of "customer support" maybe, every 10 years, some new paint, or carpeting, etc, but that's it, right? However, what overhead costs have we incurred on the internet? Since we are dealing with machinery, the possibilities are endless, for example, over the past 3 years, I have had my computer repaired/upgraded 2x, have bought 3 new computers, have gone through 3 scanners, 4 printers, 2 copy machines, and one fax machine. I have used 3 different digital cameras, and one video camera. I have gone through 2 sets of speakers, and about 6 keyboards. Lets see, in the way of computer programs, I have had both versions of auctions assistant, 3 different versions of photo shop, and about 4 different photo editing programs. I also have fax programs, email programs, and address programs. I have had to buy a cell phone, so that even when I am away from my phone, I can received my customer's phone calls, which mean the world to me! (ever get a cell phone bill from Japan??? OUCH!) I had to buy a lap top for the same reason. I have gone through 4 monitors, and have finally had to upgrade to a large 22" because I cant stand the headaches I have been getting. I have spent over 4000 on my monitors alone! oh well, at least a web sight would be cheaper then ebay right? so lets see, spent $800 to develop it, 25 a month in hosting fees, 20 a month for tech support (when needed) and after a year and a half their servers crashed, guess what? they had never backed up there systems! my web site was gone after sinking 2000 into it. At least if this had been a physical store, I would have had insurance for a fire, theft, etc. hmmmm, lets see anything else? ok, I have to have to 2 different ISP's, totaling about 75 a month, my EBAY fees are approx. 1200 a month, plus my hosting which is about 25. I sell jewelry, so I have to ship all my items in gift boxes, they cost me over 30 cents a piece! tissue paper, my business labels on the boxes, a thank you note, and inventory sheet, bubble wrap, and a business card are also included in each package. I know this sounds funny, but I am NOT complaining, like you, I do this cause I LOVE it, I used to do it to make MONEY, and that faded, then I did it cause I thought I loved EBAY and that faded, and you know . . . suddenly a physical store that can have written contracts, and insurance, and safety for ME and my customers is sound SO MUCH BETTER! You see, unlike many people on ebay, I was not doing this for extra money, I quite college, and turned down marriage to start my own company, thinking I was going to share in the internets wealth in the new millennium. I really think it is a laughing joke, please tell me, in 15 years, are we going to be laughing at the idea of ebay, the "elmo" of the internet? That's all it was, a fad, the excitement is OVER, the RUSH is gone, back to reality, with everyone actually "working" for a living, no more free handouts, they captured our hearts, our mind, and our money, we have nothing left to offer them . . .

By Lisa Proper on Wednesday, February 07, 2001 - 03:10 pm:

I'm yet another AA user that did NOT receive email
notice of these changes. I found out from a
friend who has been an AA user for far less time
than I. So why did she receive it and not I?
Not to mention all the others who have posted they
never received John's announcement either. It was pretty tacky to find out first from eBay's announcement board rather than direct from Blackthorne. This really concerns me. When we register for our "free year", will we fail to be recognized as prior users? I am also concerned with eBay's involvement in tech support. I absolutely agree with all those who have posted disgust with eBay's "canned" responses to our questions. I have been subjected to these "form" letters on more than one occasion and have been amazed how ridiculous these so-called answers seem when they don't even come close to answering my questions! Is it laziness, stupidity or are they just too busy to type personal replies when warranted? I'm afraid my tech questions, which in the past have been graciously & effectively answered by Mary at Blackthorne, will now be subjected to an eBay reply that proves useless. Contrary to most of you, I DON'T believe it is outrageous for us to pay a MODEST yearly fee to cover ALL upgrades, improvements and technical support. My husband's business has a very specialized software program that cost several thousand, and we pay $700 a year to cover the above, but it DOES include toll-free phone support as well. $200 a year fee for AAPro and NO phone support (even if we were to pay long distance charges ourselves), does seem excessive. I am relieved I never upgraded from AA to AAPro, because as an on-again/off-again seller, $200 a year fee is just out of the question. If this decision is not reconsidered, it will undoubtedly adversely affect Blackthorne business. In fact, it already has. I've been personally responsible for three people (in addition to myself) BUYING AA or AAPro, plus in the past I've always spoken highly of these programs to anyone who's interested in eBay selling. I never dreamed of asking for a commission. Blackthorne/eBay, please re-think your decisions. There are more important things in a business than the almighty dollar. You cannot put a price on the immense value of customer goodwill.

By Laurie Primavera (laurie) on Wednesday, February 07, 2001 - 03:31 pm:

PLEASE READ AND RESPOND:
Follow the link below to add contact info to a simple form. We need to have some numbers in order to figure out our next step. If any laws have been broken, and you want to participate in a quest for a refund, please add your contact info here. Enter only once so an accurate count can be achieved: http://www.blackroseleather.com/blackthorne.html

By Neil on Wednesday, February 07, 2001 - 03:36 pm:

John: 1. When will AAP127 go gold? 2. We will be forced to sign a "one-time registration" by March 31,2001 if we want to receive "A free major upgrade" and "A one-year free subscription", when will we get a look at the registration form? Will our "free major upgrade" be a beta.
3. It would appear that the eBay lawyers have found a loophole in our agreement with your company. When you start talking about AA Pro 1.26 is the released version that we paid for and the new version when released will be the latest beta of 1.27, I must remind you that many of us have been working with 1.27 beta’s for several months (seems like years) and the current beta (39) is a public beta released to the public domain.
4. The addition of BIN and Multiple Categories are not major upgrades in my opinion.
5. With several hundred dollars invested in your software, I just can’t walk away from it without a backup. I will be looking at other programs and encouraging the development of a new software program, that will have the SELLERS best interest in mind and not eBay’s bottom line.

By DM Mich on Wednesday, February 07, 2001 - 03:37 pm:

I bought WinZip an number of years ago for something like $30.00 - yearly fees - $0.00, upgrade to the latest version $0.00. Best damn $30.00 I ever spent. I ALWAYS encourage those who use WinZip to register their copy. Free updates for life!! For that kind of customer service I DO put pressure on my peers to register and promote good software.
My take on Blackthorne / eBay's idea - TAKE THIS SOFTWARE AND SHOVE IT!!!!

By amy on Wednesday, February 07, 2001 - 04:04 pm:

Bravo Jane Coloma {Tues. 6th}

I couldn't have said it better!

By kjpokerface on Wednesday, February 07, 2001 - 04:42 pm:

John,

We've already invested $60 to purchase the registered version of (AAClassic) and expected a software program that would be useable as long as we owned the license. I thought I bought a program with "free" upgrades, but now you expect me to rent what I thought I bought and paid for. I do not do auctions every month, so for me it would be a waste of money to pay Ebay a monthly fee of $4.99 to use or not use the software.There are many other programs out there (some very good for $50 or less--some are even FREE ) that can do the same and in some cases even more than your program), and unless Blackthorne/eBay changes this decision to make concessions, for current users, I too, will opt out and begin searching for an alternative software to replace yours.

I also find the Users licence Agreement for your software quite interesting...especialy the part that says:

"The LICENSED VERSION means an original fully working version of the SOFTWARE."

Does this mean my licensed version will continue to function properly and be a "fully working version" as long as I hold my registered license even if changes are made at Ebay???? Do you offer a full refund for breach of contract?? I could use the $60 refund to purchase a "fully working version" of someone else's software....

FYI: Here is the "agreement" we all agreed to when installing AA Classic.
Please read your own agreement and abide by it........

User License Agreement for Blackthorne Software

Before using this software, you must read and agree to this licensing agreement. If you disagree with any part, you will not be allowed to run the software, and you may return it for a full refund.

This user license agreement (the AGREEMENT) is an agreement between you (individual or single entity) and BLACKTHORNE SOFTWARE, for the BLACKTHORNE SOFTWARE (the SOFTWARE) that is accompanying this AGREEMENT.

The SOFTWARE is the property of BLACKTHORNE SOFTWARE and is protected by copyright laws and international copyright treaties. The SOFTWARE is not sold, it is licensed.

By purchasing this software, you are hereby granted one (1) licensed copy.

LICENSED VERSION

The LICENSED VERSION means an original fully working version of the SOFTWARE. If you accept the terms and conditions of this AGREEMENT, you have certain rights and obligations as follow:

YOU MAY:

1. Install and use one copy of the SOFTWARE on a single computer.
2. Install a second copy of the SOFTWARE on a second computer only if you are the main user of this computer (home computer or laptop for example).
3. Install the SOFTWARE on another computer only if you change your main workstation. In such a case you must uninstall the software from the old computer.
4. Make a copy of the SOFTWARE for archival purposes only.

YOU MAY NOT:

1. Copy and distribute the SOFTWARE or any portion of it.
2. Sublicense, rent, lease or transfer your personal license.
3. Sublicense, rent or lease the SOFTWARE or any portion of it.
4. Decompile, disassemble, reverse engineer or modify the SOFTWARE or any portion of it.
5. Copy the documentation accompanying the SOFTWARE.


WARRANTY DISCLAIMER

The SOFTWARE is supplied "AS IS". BLACKTHORNE SOFTWARE disclaims all warranties, expressed or implied, including, without limitation, the warranties of merchantability and of fitness for any purpose. The user must assume the entire risk of using the SOFTWARE.

DISCLAIMER OF DAMAGES

BLACKTHORNE SOFTWARE assumes no liability for damages, direct or consequential, which may result from the use of the SOFTWARE, even if BLACKTHORNE SOFTWARE has been advised of the possibility of such damages. Any liability of the seller will be limited to refund the purchase price.

By Bert Stamler (zenmaster) on Wednesday, February 07, 2001 - 06:36 pm:

Ebay bought Blackthorne SW, and if they decide to stop selling and start renting their software, that's their business. On the other hand, presently licensed users have an agreement that includes free maintenance upgrades. Sure, cap the number of licensed users now, and rent the use of the software to new users if they'll go for it. Just give your licensed users what they paid for.

By Jeff Savage (drexelantiques) on Wednesday, February 07, 2001 - 06:45 pm:

John, did you not promise that AA Pro would support other auction sites? Did you not promise plug in modules for on-site sales? While I can understand these weren't possible with eBay taking over, I did expect to eventually receive a finished product. That has never happened. I have downloaded at least 20 upgrades/versions or more of Pro, and not a single one of thoem was bug free. 1.26 came as close as any. But then I was forced to upgrade to the Beta, because 1.26 would nopt accept the category numbers off the new servers/ 1.27 generates numerous run time errors, crashes, and often locks up when I am trying to shut it down. Even worse, it relly ties up the resources on my computer. Little else can be run at the same time. I admit, I was mad lat night. Tonight I am just resigned. I do not place the total blame for this on just you, but eBay as well. I do think $16 bucks a month is too much.

I have one question. Why would it cost more to support the Pro version than the regular version? Why not one fee, and let users choose which is best.

I hope you can see that while there may have been some misunderstanding by users, but I also don't think you are giving us the whole story. I think the way this was presented to users "Exciting News!" was one of the poorest decisions I have ever seen. I hope you can understand users anger. I would havfe hoped you might have gotten equally angry, and might have gone to bat for your users more.

I like many other have said will take the "free" year, and at the end of that year hope a cheaper fee has been set, or that I can find alternative software. I'm just not going to pay for this software that I bought every year in rental fees.

By the way, I noticed your addition. Saying it was out of Beta, and it actually being out of Beta are two different things. Even after it was finally released 1.26 had bugs. At least once a session I received a runtime error, and it crashed. I was then forced to go to 1.27 because 1.26 did not support the longer auction numbers for the categories moved to new servers.

You can say you never promissed different things, but I'm not an idiot. You broke some promisses to users. If you won't acknowledge these breaks, then it just confirms what I think.

I also sow the posts where you said you were tolerating the dissatisfied posts, like you were doing us a favor? Have you forgotten who is the customer here?

By Richard Duncan (parkavenue) on Wednesday, February 07, 2001 - 06:47 pm:

Yes, I agree the program is a tremendous time saver for listing our auctions. I also use a CAD software for architectural drawings. The CAD software cost $3,500 for the original investment. My annual upgrade fees for the latest/greatest generally cost $350-$495. I believe the "monthly cost" for AAPRO is certainly EXCESSIVE related to other "high end" software programs. HOWEVER, from a time saver basis, I guess the investment is minimal. R Duncan "parkavenue"

By Donna Dilling-Simpson (photoedge) on Wednesday, February 07, 2001 - 07:00 pm:

When AAPro was first released, at a price of something around $149.95, it was billed as the latest greatest auction software. I have used it and the subsequent beta versions since its initial release. I can say without hesitation it doesn't come close to the sophistication one would expect for a software package in that price range. Having just purchased Quickbooks Pro, it is apparent their engineers have designed a slick, easy to use, stable, I repeat, stable software. Yes, it costs $229, but my point is this.....AAPro, and all it's 999 beta versions still has not met the basic requirements of a database software that can run in harmony with other programs and contains major flaws that have been there since day one.

Now we're going to get charged an annual fee and still, I imagine, have to put up with major gliches. I can't tell you how many times I have to restart my computer every day because AAPro doesn't shut down properly or sucks up all the available RAM on my system. (I'm running 512k, 900mHz, so no excuses!).

Mr. Slocum and Ebay....Before you implement a program of charging everyone who uses it, can you please fix it?

By Jane S. Coloma (anteeka) on Wednesday, February 07, 2001 - 07:21 pm:

Richard:Listing auctions is not architectural drawing! And most users of Blackthorne products do not make an architect's salary...The original idea of AA, to my perception, was primarily to help independent, small time sellers. What a noble idea it was, too. Sadly, it has come to an end. There is nothing noble left here. One final word to you, John. Your silence is speaking volumes. It seems you are hurt, or possibly annoyed, by the response of your users, by the lack of support and understanding. In the closing words 2 posts above, have you forgotten who is the customer here? You sold more than your business, John. You sold us, your loyal users, right down the river. And you present this to us as "exciting news?" Look at all these posts, John. No one is excited. I am so saddened by your lack of active involvement and honest discussion on this board. Your actions, or lack thereof, over the past 24 hours have hardened and disillusioned me more than eBay has accomplished in 3 years.

By John Beaumont (johnb) on Wednesday, February 07, 2001 - 07:51 pm:

John: Although it seems that I was the first message posted, I am certainly not the last. As my anger has festered in the last 24 hours, I've been thinking about what Blackthorne Software promised. It certainly seems that your users agree that they believed that once we purchased the "software" that all upgrades/fixes would be at no charge. Your attempt to direct us to the "about" screen just doesn't hack it - my screen says nothing about a possible charge for major upgrades. Secondly, I still have my original program(s) and upgrade files (I saved them just in case I required them for reinstall) and when I get the time I'll be interested in looking to see if they say anything about upgrades/fixes. I don't believe your now stated policy appears in any of the past programs "about" splash screen.

Secondly, a thing that I absolutely remember as being fact bothers me even more. When your company was purchased by eBay you assured us that this was a positive move and that you would continue to work on AAClassic/AAPro to function with other auction sites (namely Yahoo and Amazon) - obviously by renaming the new products "eBay blah blah blah" Blackthorne and eBay have no intention to allow it to manage auctions outside of the control of eBay.

Therefore, I've now purchased a product that ONLY works with eBay, and that is now controlled by eBay, again this is NOT what you promised your customers. A pretty high price to pay for a program that only works by the grace of eBay.

All this talk about a class action suit is great, maybe it's not you personally but the sign above your door identifies you as the CEO - therefore, "the buck stops here!" I'm not going to contact a lawyer - I don't have the money to throw away - but a letter to the US Attorney General as well as my State Attorney General is certainly in order. I do believe this smacks of monopolistic control - build a clientele through promises - allow eBay to control and restrict the software that we purchased initially independent of eBay.

I hope you have pointed those who control you at eBay to your postings - you know, I'll bet you didn't sleep very well last night - but neither did I.

By John Dost (pcgenius) on Wednesday, February 07, 2001 - 08:26 pm:

I, like many others posting messages to this group, feel that we have been duped. I just paid $200 for AAPro for my own personal use to make a few bucks on the side and am not a power seller. This software was pushed by Ebay as being a good sellers tool and that it is and for me $200 is a lot of money. Now you at Blackthorne want me to pay an additional $16 a month for WHAT? I sell a few books a month and use AAPro for its reporting and tracking to make a few bucks and not a living. You are now asking me to pay for this software each year. Surely you get enough money from the initial sale to support updates and development of new versions. This on going lease is for the large scale pros and I would tend to think that most of your users are like me, the average seller who does not have the time to sell BIG and really cannot afford to buy the software over and over. Nuff said. Please pay heed to the members of the discussion board and abandon the lease!

By John Dost (pcgenius) on Wednesday, February 07, 2001 - 08:28 pm:

I, like many others posting messages to this group, feel that we have been duped. I just paid $200 for AAPro for my own personal use to make a few bucks on the side and am not a power seller. This software was pushed by Ebay as being a good sellers tool and that it is but for me $200 is a lot of money. Now you at Blackthorne want me to pay an additional $16 a month for WHAT? I sell a few books a month and use AAPro for its reporting and tracking to make a few bucks and not a living. You are now asking me to pay for this software each year. Surely you get enough money from the initial sale to support updates and development of new versions. This on going lease is for the large scale pros and I would tend to think that most of your users are like me, the average seller who does not have the time to sell BIG and really cannot afford to buy the software over and over. Nuff said. Please pay heed to the members of the discussion board and abandon the lease!

By Donald Montgomery (dm7255) on Wednesday, February 07, 2001 - 08:31 pm:

John & eBay where are your CUSTOMERS yachts???
when I first investigated buying the AA software I was really impressed with the high marks current users gave you and Blackthorne SW and the the customer support you offered and the free 90 day trial offer and unlike the other current big auction listing/tracking programs no per transaction fees and the fact your program was client based and not server/internet based. I have used your programs for about a year and one half and always upload the latest beta. almost every day I find a new feature that helps make my eBay auction life a little easier. I have to compliment you with the fact that you have provided us users with basically free updates (after the initial high purchase price) and I really believe that you probably have the best auction program on the market. That being said, I am really disappointed in your recent announcement.I would not object paying BLACKTHORNE software a annual/monthly user/upgrade fee to keep this software up to day with eBay changes (and I guess pipe dream now - other auction sites). I DO OBJECT to paying EBAY this money to list my auctions on EBAY's site. Already in the past few months PAYPAL charges SELLERS to transfer auction payments, EBAY raises listing fees to SELLERS, The Post Office raises their prices considerably on priority mail and related services (already they have asked for another rate increase), UPS raises their prices on package delivery in general and residential delivery in particular. Now another cost to eBay's sellers at a time when auction selling is not what it used to be only 8-12 months ago. guess my $1000+ per month in listing fees is not enough for eBay. How much is too much??? maybe it's not there yet but how far away is it to being not worth selling on eBay -I think it is way closer now than just a month or so ago. Guess a feature sellers assistant will NEVER have is to automatically file for non paying bidders and final value credit.

By Krystal Waters (krystal_waters) on Wednesday, February 07, 2001 - 08:44 pm:

Hi John,
Let's face it, you or eBay, do not care if their sellers/supporters make money, as long as you/they do! I started selling on eBay because I thought I could make some money. AAPro seamed like the perfect software to run my business with since it would let me post and manage enough auctions per week to make a living. Now eBay and you have cut into profits so much there just isn't much left. I purchased this software four months ago and spent hours setting up the themes, writing the stock emails and learning to use the software to its fullest extent. I use AAPro on a daily basis and have found it buggy but not unusable. It did everything I wanted an auction management software program to do. I tried at least four other programs before I decided to lay down the cash but I see now that was a bad decision. I am now requesting a refund. I will return your software and quit using it. I would be more than willing to pay a small upgrade fee, but I refuse to pay $200 per year to “rent” your software. As far as paying for support goes, I have found the answer to any problem I might have encountered right here in the forms, and have never used “live support.” Why would I pay for something I might use once, maybe twice in the life of the software. There are many other alternatives out there and I have already investigated some of them. With sales slipping on eBay it is hard not to try the other auction sites. I will be looking for software that will post to multiple sites. There is such a program out there as I have already tried it. I am just very disappointed that John has been forced to give up on this idea and let his supporters be ripped off in the process. Please let me know when I can expect my refund and I will let you know I have deleted this program from my computer.

By Krystal Waters (krystal_waters) on Wednesday, February 07, 2001 - 08:45 pm:

Hi John,
Let's face it, you or eBay, do not care if their sellers/supporters make money, as long as you/they do! I started selling on eBay because I thought I could make some money. AAPro seamed like the perfect software to run my business with since it would let me post and manage enough auctions per week to make a living. Now eBay and you have cut into profits so much there just isn't much left. I purchased this software four months ago and spent hours setting up the themes, writing the stock emails and learning to use the software to its fullest extent. I use AAPro on a daily basis and have found it buggy but not unusable. It did everything I wanted an auction management software program to do. I tried at least four other programs before I decided to lay down the cash but I see now that was a bad decision. I am now requesting a refund. I will return your software and quit using it. I would be more than willing to pay a small upgrade fee, but I refuse to pay $200 per year to “rent” your software. As far as paying for support goes, I have found the answer to any problem I might have encountered right here in the forms, and have never used “live support.” Why would I pay for something I might use once, maybe twice in the life of the software. There are many other alternatives out there and I have already investigated some of them. With sales slipping on eBay it is hard not to try the other auction sites. I will be looking for software that will post to multiple sites. There is such a program out there as I have already tried it. I am just very disappointed that John has been forced to give up on this idea and let his supporters be ripped off in the process. Please let me know when I can expect my refund and I will let you know I have deleted this program from my computer.

By Robert O. Sachs (rosachs) on Wednesday, February 07, 2001 - 08:59 pm:

I've been reading the posts here all day, and mulling over what I could possibly add that hasn't already been said. Yes, I'm extremely disappointed, but not surprised, at the callous attitude ePay has taken towards this newly-purchased customer base. But if you look back at ePay's history, you will see that this is the only way they know how to treat their paying customers.

I'm saddened at the passing of what promised to be a great program. The 1.27 beta does have it's problems, but the new features are great. How much of it ePay allows to live is debatable - it does put an awful lot of control into the hands of the paying customer - us. And you can't have your paying customers having too much control - they might let it go to their heads and think that they actually have rights!

I honestly don't think John has any choice in this matter. He has been bought right along with the software he developed. I'm sure there's some clause in the purchase agreement that keeps him from saying what he really wants to say... heck, he may even have to run his posts past the ePay lawyers before he's allowed to type! Can't give those purchased peons too much freedom!! They might start to think for themselves again!!

Personally, if ePay really wanted to make a go of this, I think they should have split the product as follows: 30 day trial version remains - it's a great way to get folks online. Follow that with an option: purchase for $200 plus $30/yr maintenance contract, or purchase usage by the month for $16/month. For a newbie who's not too sure, the monthly contract would be perfect - use it until you either are convinced to buy or decide to drop out of ePay. For the experienced user, the purchase price is within reason, and the annual maintenance contract is not a bad deal. Heck, you can even make the maintenance optional - but no upgrades or support without it.

A lot of the operating environments I program in work the same way - a hefty (for the market) price tag, followed with an annual maintenance contract. The maint contract supports customer support - development is fueled by new purchases. Why? Because your existing customer base is where your best ideas and best beta testing comes from. You lose that at your own risk!

Will ePay change the policy? I doubt it - they have a purchase contract to pay off! They have to get the money to pay John from somewhere, and we all know it won't be coming out of their salaries!! And with ePay's stock price where it is, they need all the bottom line shoring they can get! If the price falls too much, all those options aren't worth diddly!!


When it comes right down to brass tacks, ePay is one of the few companies that has out-Microsofted Microsoft. MS is the perennial 'keep-m-paying' company, with new 'releases' and 'upgrades' coming just often enough that you lose track of your accumulated costs. And remember the Win3.1 "upgrade" that broke OS/2's compatibility? Anyone remember that 'fix' that ePay had to roll back, since it broke something with AAPro? They know how to shut us down if we don't pay...er...play along, so you can forget your software working for long after the change-over is complete.


I was really beginning to enjoy using AAPro - it made my life much easier, gave me time back to spend with the wife and kids, and kept much better track of things than I ever did manually. I should have seen this coming when Mary mentioned that ePay was buying Blackthorne... but I just wanted the best auction software I had found after months of searching. I have it now... but for how much longer?


John: it may be futile, but why not go with a dual mode purchase method? Subscription for those who want it that way, one time with maintenance for those of us who don't? The success of your product would be measured by the expanded user base, as folks who were shut out by the price tag are now able to join the crowd. And it would show that ePay actually does consider something other than the bottom line and stock price!


Guess it's time to hit the VB & Access manuals....

By Mark Cross (markcross) on Wednesday, February 07, 2001 - 10:00 pm:

Hi, John. I never have posted to a board like this before. I have always been a lurker. Because of the controversy the new software has generated, I wanted to share with you my experiences with your product. I bought Auction Assistant when it first came out. I think it was 50 bucks or something like that. It was an easy way to use HTML and spruce up your auctions. The bells and whistles were great. The themes were easy to use. It made everything look a little more professional. My sales increased and I made a little bit more money. It was worth it. I became a loyal customer.

I was excited when you were getting ready to release Auction Assistant Pro. I had been reading about the upgrades and I was one of the first people to purchase AAPro. It took me a little time to convert over and figure out how to use it, but it was worth it. It made our operation a lot more professional. It also freed up our resources, especially when it came to listing. There were some bugs, most of which were easily correctable and attributable to operator error.

Prior to AAPro, sometimes we would have three computers with three employees going at the same time for many hours just to list our auctions. It saved a lot of time with email and auction management. With AAPro, we eliminated about 50 man-hours a week. 50 x 52 = 2600 man hours x $9.00 per hour = $23,400. What a savings! We were able to have our employees write descriptions and take photos rather than management and listing. We were able to substantially increase our business and add more profits to the bottom line.

I really do appreciate all the online help I have received in the past. You have a lady by the name of Mary that works support. She has helped me several times. She is one of your best. I think you have developed a wonderful product. We have used your product and have made and saved many dollars.

I was a little unhappy when you sold out to eBay, because I knew that we would never get the full support for other auction sites, but you could always copy and paste the HTML. However I was extremely happy for you and your family. I think it is great that we live in a country such as ours where you can have an idea, work hard and ultimately see that idea come to fruition. You have helped a lot of sellers save and make a lot of money and you deserve to be a millionaire many times over.

I strongly object to all the negativity on this board. EBay's pricing increases are nominal. A nickel raise in the listing fees on the small end is not very much. A surcharge for 10-day auctions is not unreasonable. If a nickel is going to make a difference in listing an item then your profit margin is too small and you do not need to list that item in the first place. It only clutters up the site. By encouraging more people to run shorter auctions, you have fewer auctions on at any given time so you increase site stability. This will also mean more money to me as a seller because there will be fewer live auctions. These new fees on eBay are welcome.

As far as your new pricing structure, I have no problem with it. With just the automatic input of auction numbers, I will save money every month because I do not have to pay an employee to enter the numbers. Even with your monthly fee I will come out ahead on this feature alone. Since it will support other eBay features all the better. I think I actually prefer doing business with an eBay company because I feel that AAPro will probably get upgraded whenever eBay makes a change so AAPro will be current before any other company's software.

The only thing constant about doing business on the internet is change. Change happens quickly and if you do not change, you fall behind, your bottom line suffers, and you are out of business. I support your changes and will still be a loyal customer. Thanks again, John, for a great product and great support. I hope you are able to continually upgrade your software. You have made and saved us many dollars. Keep up the good work!

By Jeff Savage (drexelantiques) on Wednesday, February 07, 2001 - 11:09 pm:

You know what, if I treated my customers in my shop, on my website, and on eBay as Blackthorne has treated it's customers, they would regard me as pond scum? And you know what? They would be right? I would be the lowest form of life known. Not even above the level of bacteria. They would be just stains beneath my wheels. But you know what? They wouldn't tolerate that. They would move on to other sellers. On to other auction services. Much as users here should. John, this is the most shameful thing I have ever seen a CEO do. I've been in business for over 15 years. if I treated my customers as you have, I would expect them to leave me. I can't believe the gall to announce this absolute junk you have presented to us. If you have the gall, call me at 828-437-5938. Lets see if you can justify this on the phone. I doubt you would present this garbage to me face to face or on the phone.

By James Lefever (mrglass) on Wednesday, February 07, 2001 - 11:24 pm:

I am somewhat disheartened by the monthly fee. While the cost may not be to bad for
volume users nobody likes to forced into new fees. A yearly update even if at the same
cost would seem to be a better alternative. Many people would voluntary upgrade just to
have latest features. The new program does not address small users [like myself] that only list
10 items on a slow month but would not want to turn service off.
I am happy with AAClassic as it serves my needs although I did purchase AApro a year
ago but found it to hard to set up and use. Probably my fault as I was not willing to spend
the time on the learning curve.
The point of all this is I don't mind paying a premium price for a premium program and
updates but I will not submit to being bled dry with another monthly fee.
Thanks for listening

By Paul Neidig (pneidig) on Wednesday, February 07, 2001 - 11:46 pm:

Hi John,

You are really getting beat up over this, maybe I can help you out a bit here.

Let me say that I am an ex-AAPro user. It is because of AAPro and what it did that I went out and started looking for something better. There were some features that I really like about AAPro but it did not quite do enough. There has been a lot of talk on this forum about trying something else. Guess what folks my fees from one of the other options out there cost me over $150 last month alone, multiply that by 12 that is over $1800 a year and you are complaining about $15 per month. If the new version has some of the features that I am looking for I will be back.

Another thing you ought to consider before just jumpimg ship is remember that Blackthorne is now part of eBay which should mean that the software should be alot more stable and with this new option updates should be faster and more complete. Isn't that what we all want, new features coming out quicker. Sounds good to me.

Lets look at reliability for a moment, I use two other programs at the moment that I think are better than AAPro in its current state. Guess what - between the two I had a total of 8 days last month that I could not manage my auctions (not a good thing in this business) and that doesnt include eBays significant down time.

You guys have a year, give the product a shot and quit bemoaning the fact. Most of you are doing this as a business, make business decisions. You may find out that this is going to be the product you really want to use.

By Robin Jean Scott (sucotash) on Thursday, February 08, 2001 - 12:00 am:

Geez John, what a can of worms! As a totally loyal customer of many years and having enjoyed the privilege of personal help from you and Mary as well as others on your capable staff, I'm really upset at the attacks on you. On the other hand, I can't quite come to terms on my feelings about the new fee structure.

At this point in time, I couldn't justify the "rental". I gave up my "powerseller" status on eBay long ago -- just about the time of the "reserve fee" implementation. There was a "faction" of us who tried our best to make Golds grow but unfortunately they were not able to keep up with us and our efforts were in vain.

I have a few questions concerning the new AAClassic and AAPro (I just can't call them by their "new" names -- sorry!) I've been using both programs due to AAPro's inability to list on eBay Motors. I prefer Pro.

1. Pro will be capable of posting on eBay Motors, therefore, would I have only one "rental" payment to be concerned with?

2. Every once in a while I get in the mood and post 20 or so auctions on eBay (just for the hell of it). Will I pay for only the months I use it or will I be forced to pay every month?

3. Would AAClassic still operate, without any updating, on sites other than eBay?

I'm a little more than miffed that eBay-ePay, the greedy #@$% of #@$&$&#'s, have an exclusive on a program that I purchased in good faith for my personal use on online auctions -- not something for eBay exclusively.

As for you, John, I once had the opportunity to sell out to a large concern (Bravo, John), if I had, I wouldn't be worrying about "renting" the new software!!! And if a frog had wings he wouldn't bump his a** on the lily pads.

Keep your chin up John and all,

Robin

By B. A. Murry (bamcards) on Thursday, February 08, 2001 - 12:32 am:

Mark C. has made some great points here. It is time for users to evaluate just what they want in an auction support program. If they only need a glorified htlm product, they should evaluate the many basic alternatives in the marketplace. Someone actually said they only did 1-2 auctions a month. Clearly the Blackthorne products have been a luxury to those who don't operate on the scale where the savings from the automated functions alone obviously save many hours a month on routine operations.

Those users of Pro who indicate that they can't afford the future $15.99 fee should consider stepping down to the new 'Basic' version. It appears to me that this will be a program that delivers far more functionality than the early Pro. The $4.99 a month for this version is likely to be recognized as a reasonable and modest fee to new eBay sellers or those who've been using other products. This is what the larger eBay community will see in these new programs.

The issue of "I bought it, it's mine and I should get lifetime support" are overreaching. The frenzy over lawsuits and such is only ammunition for those who always yearn to attack the "system, the powerful, the greedy".

Veteran Blackthorne users feel they should be 'grandfathered'. This is a heated, argumentative point. Perhaps the heat will bring about some reevaluation. But personal attacks that are part of the diatribe directed to John S are unjustified and plain wrong. Those caught in the blame game should 'step down' and 'grow up'.

By A. Skinner (askinner) on Thursday, February 08, 2001 - 12:37 am:

The following is the text of a letter I've sent to various eBay support posts, as well as John Slocum.


I expect you're well aware of the negative reaction to eBay's / Blackthorne's proposed switchover to a software rental system. I'm writing to review the situation with you and ask that you reconsider your announced plans. I also hope you're actively reviewing the Blackthorne message boards to monitor the reaction of the Blackthorne / eBay community.

Auction assist software helps small business people list more auctions faster on your site. More auctions equals more fees. Likewise, less auctions equals less fees. I think you've severely miscalculated the effect of this decision. You'll never bring into the fold enough users to make up the lost ones, especially with the degree of negative publicity that continues to spread about this decision.

As a long-time eBay client, I've read much of the angry sentiment over various courses of action taken by eBay throughout the last few years. I've never participated on the boards, although I often sympathized with the complaints. As a long time owner / user of the Blackthorne software, however, I find that I, too, have finally reached my limit.

I purchased the software almost two years ago, first in it's simpler program phase, and then as AA Pro. I also bought the Themed Megasets. This represented an investment of more than $200 for me. I, like many, many users of the program spent countless hours learning to use the program to best effect. It's been the ongoing users of the software who have most contributed to the development process.
People who stayed up late hours, diligently recording their problems, and exchanging solutions, ideas, and suggestions on the Blackthorne message boards. To be told now that you'll begin charging us for using the same program we purchased and evolved is unacceptable. And I think we're always wise to the eventual uselessness of currently existing versions; John had always quickly updated them to meet eBay's programming revisions. Without a subscription, event he most minor changes will render non-updated versions unusable.

I do understand that I'll have a full year to continue to use the program without charge, but that's hardly a satisfactory offer. It's not the money, it's the principle. What your new policy does, in effect, is motivate me to join the many, many others who've already begun listing their products on other auction sites, and look for new solutions as to how I run my auctions. I can't continue to invest in any sense of community within eBay, nor in the people (John Slocum, Mary) and the company I've always called Blackthorne.

Without a more satisfactory proposal, I'll also join the ranks of those actively dissuading others from using the software, which, I can assure, you is an extremely contrary position to the one I've always held for the program. I am personally responsible for eleven other people purchasing and using the software over the last two years. I myself was introduced to the software by another Ebay/ Blackthorne user who has already contacted me, actually "apologizing" for the behavior of the company.

My request is that you reconsider this decision. Existing owners of Blackthorne AA software should be grandfathered in with no charges, or with a greatly reduced annual fee of perhaps $25.00. This would recognize the enormous contribution that the users have made to the development and support of the program.

eBay has shown in the past that it's a company capable of responding to it's community. If that quality still exists, I'd sure like to see it happen now.

By jeff puterbaugh (jeffp) on Thursday, February 08, 2001 - 01:03 am:

Many people have mentioned that they would be willing to pay an upgrade fee. Have you not forgotten who you would be paying this fee to? E-bay! And who is benefiting more out of all of us AA users, using the AA programs? E-bay! Because the easier it is to list an item, the more items you can list, the more items you can sell and the more money E-bay will make. And you still think that paying E-bay a upgrade fee out of your profit to increase THEIR profit is OK? I'm sorry, I don't. E-bay should provide this program as free listing tool to all who want to use it (OOPS.. did I just use E-bay and free in the same sentence? How stupid of me) to increase listings and profit for them but instead they think it is "exciting news" to charge us every month to use it. Man, I don't know about you but I am so excited I could almost SH#T!

Count me as one who will never pay a monthly fee when my year is up.

One question for Kelly? what the hell are you doing to your equipment? 3 computers, 3 scanners, 4 printers, 3 cameras 4 monitors and 6 keyboards In three years??? I must not be working hard enough, as I am still on my original stuff.

I am glad Mr. Cross (above post) is making and saving enough money to happily pay anything they ask to keep his program. It's to bad that the rest of us small time schmucks aren't blessed with his enthusiasm over being held at gun point for more money. He can object all he wants to the negativity of these post but he better get used to it cause he probably hasn't seen anything yet!

Thanks

By Scott Largent (scoco) on Thursday, February 08, 2001 - 01:45 am:

There is obviously more than one way to look at these changes…

I really didn’t see anything in the “exciting news” that had me “excited.” I have never “rented” the privilege of software use before. In the past I either bought it, or I didn’t. When I bought the Auction Assistant program I never expected to pay a monthly fee for it.

All the ethics of big business aside, I guess the question I have to ask myself now is this… “Does AAPro save ME $16 a month in time?” Honestly, the answer is yes--my time is valuable, and the tools in the program save me more than 53 cents per day. I realize this is for my situation, not for everyone.

Are there other programs that cost less? Yes. Are there other programs that do less? Yes. Are there other programs that do more? Yes. Are there other programs that cost more? Yes.

I do believe that there has been a degree of deception here. I bought software with no mention of possible monthly fees attached. Possibly the plan can still be amended, but if not, the decision-makers are giving the existing customers a year and I will take it. That gives a lot of time to check out and weigh any options, all the while continuing to use the AAPro program for what I bought it for.

By Mike Jackson (kingnick) on Thursday, February 08, 2001 - 02:02 am:

In my book for Ebay for Dummies it has these listed that are FREE:

The Oracle...at www.the-oracle.com
Easy Auction at - www.aucitontools.com
Auction Poster 98 is a pay server but it's only $29.95 for a WHOLE YEAR. www.acutionposter.com
Ebay quckmailer - www.flyingzebra.com/ebay quicknamiler/dowload.htm

By Claudia Landow (blandow) on Thursday, February 08, 2001 - 04:19 am:

I just have to say THANK YOU for your products being the major part of my success on Ebay auctions this past year! You have made my ads look great, kept me organized, and you have made it easy for me to respond to and give feedback to my buyers!
I whole-heartedly approve of improvements and I have heard of some of the great changes that are coming....I look forward to them. I love my Auction Assistant Classic and any changes for the better are welcomed! (although I realize that "change" is a dangerous word!)
For the disgruntled out there, I don't think they are looking at the BIGGER picture. Just like buying a car, yes you OWN it but you still have to pay to keep it maintained!! No problem! I'm just delighted to have the "car"!

By Nicholas Kalfas (kalfas) on Thursday, February 08, 2001 - 06:52 am:

Dear Undisgruntled Claudia... It's partly the money. It's principally the PRINCIPLE! This software was SOLD with the codicil that upgrades would be supplied with no cost (also known as "free"). This was Blackthorne's promise to buyers. It was a bad (business) plan on their part. None-the-less, it was what was "sold" to the buyer.. Buy our software, upgrades would always be free. There was no mention of major or minor. Indeed, major upgrades to Classic were free (remember version 1.xx.. and now it is version 2.xx -- that constitutes a "major" upgrade. This current tactic is essentially a unilateral reneg on a contract which was established during the sale of the software. THAT is what everybody is thoroughly pi**ed off about. Like one person said, $.53/day... no problem -- but the idea of being e-raped (e-screwed implies mutual consent) violates everyone's sensibility... well, I guess almost everyone, eh....

By Robin Carattini (katie1auct) on Thursday, February 08, 2001 - 07:14 am:

I have very recently (Dec 2000) purchased your AApro and the megasets.
I am VERY UNHAPPY about the new monthly fees!

I am a SMALL seller and it took me a couple of days to decide if I wanted to spend the $200+
for this software. But, I decided after time it would pay for itself. HA! I just can't afford ANOTHER $200 a year to rent software I feel I've already paid to use.

By Lahood Stephen (sisyphus1900) on Thursday, February 08, 2001 - 08:25 am:

This is a hopelessly greedy decision on the part of eBay. John sold his product. I don't blame him, and I am sure he made a lot of money... BRAVO JOHN!... But eBay is the slime who thinks it is it's right to digest the Earth. There is a such thing as Anti-Trust legeslation. This is a prime example of the abuse which brought about the need for such legislation.

By Lawrence Bove (lobo8) on Thursday, February 08, 2001 - 09:25 am:

Poor John!
I can't believe how many times I read poor John in the posts above. Get real people he ain't poor. He's made a truck load and is saying FU to all us slobs that got it for him. (I feel particularly sorry for those who invested hours analysing the problems with AA and gave poor John the solutions and a couple of million bucks)

It not a new concept. Its been happening since commerce started. Do you remember when eBay was a community?

YES - its disappointing BUT there are dozens of suppliers of auction listing software out there. AND guess what some are FREE. YES - no cost for the software & no monthly fees. This is not rocket science. If Poor John could make AA why can't dozens of others do it?

AND guess what! If eBay tries to lock the other suppliers out THEN we/they have a case to take to the courts.

In the meantime I am downloading FREE auction listing software from ....... http://www.auctionsubmit.com,http://www.auctionsubmit.com

By Jane S. Coloma (anteeka) on Thursday, February 08, 2001 - 09:52 am:

lobo8:eBay will most likely charge all auction management services/ software companies a hefty rent for accessing the soon to be in place API. That is not locking them out..it is demanding rental fees to access the API.

By Bud Bridges (busyb) on Thursday, February 08, 2001 - 10:05 am:

Well my first reply never even made it to the list of unhappy customers. I wonder how many people that happened to ?? I have to agree with everyone's statements. I don't understand how you figure that renting the software at $200.00 year is the same as paying for yearly up grades? I don't spend $200.00 a year for any computer program out there. Even Microsoft OS is only $80 + every year or 2. Does that mean Auction Pro is worth more then the OS for your computer? I don't think so. How can you come up with such a fee when no other software I know of is $200.00 every year???? I can tell you what will happen. All the current customers will up grade free for 1 year then take that time to find other auction writers. I think you are in for a big surprise when it's time for everyone to start paying. You went to far on this one ! Busyb

By RANDIE SMITH (giftgarden) on Thursday, February 08, 2001 - 10:13 am:

HEY JOHN HERE IS A SENARIO FOR YOU I JUST UPGRADED TO AA PRO NOT EVEN A MONTH AGO AND I SELL PLANTS WHICH IS SEASONAL. SO I SELL ON EBAY FOR 6 MONTHS. ONLY HOWEVER NOW IF I WISH TO KEEP UP WITH EBAYS EVER CHANGING FORMAT I WILL NOW HAVE TO PAY THEM FOR 6 MONTHS WHICH I WILL NOT EVEN BE USING EBAY. PLEASE TELL ME IF YOU THINK THIS IS FAIR I ABSOLUTELY DO NOT. I UNDERSTAND THAT WE ARE ALL OUT TO MAKE A LIVING BUT THERE SHOULD BE SOME KIND OF COMPENSATION.

By Blackthorne Tech Support (help) on Thursday, February 08, 2001 - 10:16 am:

The subscription plan allows you to subscribe/unsubscribe during the months that you are not on eBay. In your case, you would only be paying about $96 to use the latest version during your season.

By Lyndon Brittner (lbrittner) on Thursday, February 08, 2001 - 11:16 am:

I can understand charging for the auction assistant when it was being run as a private company, but now that ebay owns it - no way!

Has anyone tried entering an auction using just using the Interent, without software? It is a joke!

ebay is giving us the priveledge to pay them to help them make money.

What's next ebay? Pay phones and pay toilets for your employees?

You just bit the hand that feeds you!

The only way we will get any attention is by taking this public people. We need to organize a boycott.

Instead of posting these complaints here, they need to be posted in the form of an ebay auction!

Take it public!

Unless we turn this into a public relations disaster for ebay, they will win, and we will lose!

By dirk monseur (dirk) on Thursday, February 08, 2001 - 11:30 am:

Yada yada Yada

By Lyndon Brittner (lbrittner) on Thursday, February 08, 2001 - 12:22 pm:

does anyone have a phone number for Hawthorne customer support?

By Jane S. Coloma (anteeka) on Thursday, February 08, 2001 - 12:54 pm:

Lyndon:That information can be found on thei discussion page: http://www.blackroseleather.com/blackthorne.html

By Jim Roberts (downmeltd) on Thursday, February 08, 2001 - 01:02 pm:

Hang on a second here...

So, you're telling us that if people unsibscribe while they're not using it, then subscribe when they need it they get to pay LESS for THE EXACT SAME THING????? Sure, they used it less, but it's the SAME UPGRADE!!!!! Now, how much sense does that make?

By Jane S. Coloma (anteeka) on Thursday, February 08, 2001 - 01:17 pm:

Jim: The upgrades are included in the *rental* fees, as I understand it, but are not the sole or primary thing you would be paying for. By allowing users to subscribe/unsubcribe, I am left with the impression the main deal here is an ongoing rental for actual usage.

By John McDonnell (hadleigh) on Thursday, February 08, 2001 - 01:39 pm:

This whole issue stinks. But it is a "cause" of the whole Ebay approach. Nickle and dime sellers to death.
Ebay has just raised their fees, had also raised their "special category" fees a few months ago, will shortly, no doubt, add fees for "Buy It Now", added an additonal fee to list auctions for 10 days, charges exhorbitant fees for Billpoint and adds a fee just to deposit the money to your account and now this.
The larger issue is not if the Blackthorne rape is legal but how we get Ebay to understand they are in the process of killing the goose that lays that golden egg.
Collectively we need a worthy and active volunteer to spearhead a direct protest to Ebay and for all sellers who are interested to back that approach to be heard on a whole variety of issues. I do not have the time to be the organizer but would be willing to put a few bucks on the block each month until we get heard. My ebay fees for the past three months exceed $21,000 and I get treated in this manner. Those fees do not include what is paid to Billpoint. User hadleigh on Ebay. My email is hadleigh@pacbell.net. Let's see what happens as a response to this suggestion. Lets be heard

By Jim Roberts (downmeltd) on Thursday, February 08, 2001 - 01:52 pm:

Jane,

I understand how it works, but by their wording:
"The subscription plan allows you to subscribe/unsubscribe during the months that you are not on eBay. In your case, you would only be paying about $96 to use the latest version during your season
It sounds an awful lot like they are paying less for the same "upgrade" that I am, because I'll be using it more!

Isn't that what this is all about? Didn't John himself say that this is no different than paying for an upgrade, but instead of an upfron price, it's spread out over 12 payments? Then explain how User A will pay less for this "Major Upgrade" then User B will have to pay, because User B will be using it each month. Both are using the same "Major Upgrade". Why aren'ty both paying the same price for it?

John and Blackthorne are doing their best to paint this as an upgrade fee, not a rental. So explain this situation to me!

By Ron Bynum (rbynum) on Thursday, February 08, 2001 - 02:18 pm:

It's amazing. I have actually read a few posts here in defense of this latest attempt at extortion by eBay and Blackthorne. I guess they just don't get it. Apparently they don't have a problem with increased costs and fees like most of us do. Apparently they don't have a problem with being lied to or sold out. Common, every day occurance for some I imagine.

I suppose these same users would not object to charges for email messages either. They would just tell you that it saves them so much time and postage stamps that it's well worth it. How does 15 cents per message sound? That would be a great savings over the USPS. And while were at it, let's add a surcharge to our auctions that can be passed on to our internet ISP. Without their help we could never list an auction and eBay would be out of business in a flash.

Get real folks! It doesn't matter how much time it saves you. No one has done us any favors. We have paid for this service with our hard earned money. And we paid for it with the expectation that Blackthorne would live up to it's promise of free upgrades and technical support for life. You can attempt to justify this all you want, but the fact remains that we were all sold out to eBay. I don't know about you, but I don't like to be used.

By Paul Milazzo (casebusters) on Thursday, February 08, 2001 - 02:40 pm:

I wont mind paying the $ 15.00 a month if ebay would give 50 free listings a month

Hahahahhahahah sorry, what was I thinking

By Ronald Silvis (silvis) on Thursday, February 08, 2001 - 02:56 pm:

From Blackthornes opening web page. Note the low-cost as their mission !!!

Our Mission
Blackthorne Software is committed to providing eBay(TM) users with low-cost, high-featured software

By Judy Walker (judywalker) on Thursday, February 08, 2001 - 03:07 pm:

I would like to add my name as a long time AA Classic user who is angered and offended by your new policy. The legal language in the license agreement covers your legal position, but your ethical position, which is harder to enforce, is completely wrong. I believe it would be appropriate for you to initate your monthly fee for new purchasers of your software, and "grandfather" in your previous customers with a one-time upgrade fee, which should be significantly smaller than the cost to purchase the software new.

Your position that you have to maintain programmers to keep the program current with eBay's frequent changes is not valid. EBay is an unusual environment for a software program to conform to, as it constantly makes changes that must be addressed with code upgrades. But this is your cost of doing business, your overhead. Additionally, the provision of 24 hour/7 day customer support is not something I want to pay for. Most other software programs make this a subscription option - you can subscribe to access to tech support, or you can pay for each time you access it. I would consider that a fair deal, rather than making everyone pay a monthly fee and giving everyone full access to tech support whether they want it or not.

When I purchased a license to use this very useful and excellent software, it was with the reasonable expectation that I could continue to use it if I chose. EBay's unusually fluid environment will clearly make it impossible to continue to use my older version of AA Classic, as changes accumulate and the older version is not supported. Although you are legally entitled to behave in this manner, you have made a very unethical decision, in my opinion, and I think you should be ashamed of yourself.

I will be using my "free" year (which I feel I have already paid for) to investigate other auction management options, including designing a management system of my own, and investigating diversifying to other auction sites besides eBay. EBays' constant greed, chipping away a few cents here and there, not because they are legitimately entitled to them but because they can get away with it, is very offensive to me.

By Paul Milazzo (casebusters) on Thursday, February 08, 2001 - 03:30 pm:

maybe ebay will change their name too
FEEbay sounds 100% correct

I think it would stick....

By Steve Costley (stevelco) on Thursday, February 08, 2001 - 04:55 pm:

I'm very disappointed. The proposed price is just too high. ::Steve, looking at alternatives::

By david dubay (mrhaneys2001) on Thursday, February 08, 2001 - 05:41 pm:

Has anyone thought of contacting ABC's 20/20? John Stousel has a "Gimme a Break" segment. I'm sure he would be interested in something like this.

By Ralph Payne (tonyp) on Thursday, February 08, 2001 - 06:22 pm:

OK…spent 3 hours reading all these posts. Didn't miss a word. Just as pissed as the 'next guy', and equally as convinced that John S is caught between his conscience and an eBay gag order. Of course he has integrity; that absolutely should not even be a subject for discussion here. He knows what the implied sale of the LICENSE of his software meant to him and to YOU.

But, I ask you, haven't you ever worked for someone that made YOU go back to a customer and take back what you'd said to them? I'm talking about something you'd said or promised that was, in your opinion, the ONLY way to deal fairly with the customer. And then your boss tells you to change it or even to lie to them. Now, multiply that by a thousand or so. Did you also make a lot of money at your job? Did that make you feel any less inclined to rip off the head of that SOB boss? Or ease that turmoil in your mind? I seriously doubt it.

This is an eBay decision. A business decision, not an emotional decision. And I'm trying to convince myself of that as I sit here typing with my hands shaking in anger <<<Keep that in mind as you read this: John was, and still IS, our only champion in this matter. So don't piss him off! He is the only one that can say to Meg "maybe we need to re-think this about current customers…"

As a user of AA Classic, this 'rental' plan entails no where near the costs that the Pro users will have to bear. For them, it is just flat-out unfair. Period. Looked at from a business sense, my Classic version is worth a $5 rental per month fee. I guess. I'm finding it difficult to know if I am ignoring the emotional issue. I can't remember being this utterly pissed. But I do have some legitimate questions:

1. The license agreement states I am entitled to a fully working copy with minor & intermediate upgrades. "Fully working" is not the same as "Functional" in a technical sense. It can still work, but just not do diddly in regards to listing my items on eBay. But I believe the 'implied' (legal-wise) fitness for USE would be a point of contention, in any litigation. What I want to know is this: If I keep my AA Classic version 2.36 Build 4 just as it is presently, will it be upgraded with minor & intermediate changes* to keep it FUNCTIONAL with eBay's listing procedure? Don't answer yet.

*These upgrades must meet certain conditions as stated by the licensing agreement. They must be FREE. They must be in PERPETUITY - since Blackthorne is not defunct, but was bought by eBay, that makes eBay an Assignee to all of Blackthorne's commitments AND I see no time limit mentioned in the license agreement for these upgrades. Now answer.

2. Will this upcoming change at eBay, with the API initiative, require a "Major" (eBay's definition*) upgrade to my AA2 Classic software (at its present version & build) to keep it functional? Don't answer yet.

*The precedent of FREE major upgrades has already been set by Blackthorne, so eBay will have a difficult time asserting any needed changes to the AA2 software as being a true "Major" upgrade. I'm not out to get any major upgrades in freebie fashion here…I just want what I currently have to keep working. Now answer.


End of questions. As a PayPal account holder, I know that policies can change on an hourly basis (it seemed that fast) and whatever is carved in stone today, seems to dissolve away tomorrow. So, any assurances that we receive here today are more than likely of a transient nature. The eBay listing process could grow so complex (perhaps intentionally) that no company could provide auction management software that could be guaranteed to work in perpetuity. BUT, eBay could make such a commitment! And make it affordable as with any software that must be upgraded from time to time. It also must be a MAJOR upgrade if they wish to be paid for it…and not simply a major upgrade to generate capitol. There are "End Of Life" rules concerning tangible & intangible products. That may be something eBay hasn't considered (The legal team of Dewey, Cheetum & Howe).

As LOYAL, current customers who have expounded accolades to many in support of your product, we should be given the opportunity to pay (should be free!) ONLY a modest fee ($10) for this upcoming "major" upgrade. Ebay is not a software company (thank God); they sell ADVERTISING. They should realize that it only makes good business sense to provide an efficient 'front end' engine to their listing form. This has already been pointed out in several of the postings above and I am sorry for the repetition, but here's an analogy that just occurred to me. I do not (and would not dream of) charging 10 cents to everyone that clicked on my listing's title, just to see the actual auction listing. I can think of no better way to alienate and drive off any potential customers! To charge for the right to get in my front door, just so I can then attempt to sell you something??? What part of "Self-Destructive" don't they understand?

Rent it to others if you will, but we BOUGHT the license!

By Ted Flickinger (ted) on Thursday, February 08, 2001 - 06:43 pm:

John, my husband and I have both paid for copies of your program, and in so doing indicated our compliance with the license agreement. We are now asking you to do the same. We have a combined total of six years of satisfaction with your product. We have also had a number of friends purchase your software at our recommendation. To say that we feel betrayed by your decision not to keep your word by providing the free upgrades as stated in the advertising of your product is putting it mildly. Certainly the ethical, if not legal, obligation to your loyal customers would be to honor your commitment to us. We understand you have the right to set your own pricing. But a deal's a deal. If you feel it is necessary to charge a monthly fee, apply it only to the new purchasers, but honor your existing deal with the established customers. We understand that it is your software. But if we are going to spend our hard-earned money, we will spend it wisely. What you intend to charge for your program simply does not justify the expense. Especially when there are competitors with similar products and obviously higher sets of business standards. At this point, we would be willing to spend additional money for a quality program, but will not deal with a business that we can not trust. How do we know that this increase will be the only time you decide to "renegotiate" the deal you have with your customers? How can you ever be trusted again? Ted & Renee Flickinger

By Jane S. Coloma (anteeka) on Thursday, February 08, 2001 - 07:23 pm:

So many questions...no answers.

By Jane S. Coloma (anteeka) on Thursday, February 08, 2001 - 07:41 pm:

Ralph: I find this to be blatantly unethical. That, to my way of seeing it, calls the CEO's integrity into question. Good post, BTW. Excellent questions. I hope they will be answered in their entirety.

By Terry Dreiling (tdreilng) on Thursday, February 08, 2001 - 07:59 pm:

I purchased your Auction Assistant Pro several months ago. Up until I got the notice you we planning to stick me with a monthly fee, I loved it. I had recommended it's use to several fellow e-bayers. I have just today told them to put off their purchase. This monthly fee is OUTRAGEOUS! I E-bay when I can, not every month of the year, I WILL NOT pay a monthly fee for your new service. In fact I had considered checking out other auction sites on the web because I feel that E-bays recent rate hikes are out of line. If I don't make a profit selling on E-bay, using the software I purchased I WILL GO SOMEWHERE ELSE!!!! Just reading these postings I have found several alteratives, Thanks all

By Jane S. Coloma (anteeka) on Thursday, February 08, 2001 - 08:01 pm:

At the top of this page it is written:I know that many of you are going to have questions, so we will be manning this board for the next several days to answer any questions you may have. =====It does not say to selectively answer, it says to answer ANY questions...Where are the answers to all the questions posted here?

By Ralph Payne (tonyp) on Thursday, February 08, 2001 - 08:37 pm:

Jane: (& anyone else, for that matter)
I am giving John one heck of a "benefit of the doubt". There may be a lot more going on than he can respond to, even if he's absolutely fuming to do so.
Just a crappy, possible scenerio: When eBay approached Blackthorne with the offer to purchase his company, they may have said "take it or we'll make the front end so convoluted you'll never get it right".
Does Feepay (I LOVE that one) deal in any other way except 'Heavy-Handed'? Why should a business to business dealing for them be any different?
I don't see any current answers on any of the boards. Perhaps there might be a meeting occurring to decide if anymore of these types of questions even need answers. If they rescind this fiasco, we'll be asking NEW questions.

By Steve Twohy (steve1) on Thursday, February 08, 2001 - 09:13 pm:

While this plays out, if you'd like to consider alternitives, take a look at the evaluation the Online Auction Users Association did last month on web-based auction management systems. Some are free:

http://www.auctionusers.org/eval/wbams.shtml

OAUA also has a comprehensive list of links to auction management tools, including auction management software, here:

http://www.auctionusers.org/links.shtml#softsell

OAUA is currently evaluating PC-based (software) auction management tools, including Blackthorne, and that report should be available in May.

I've used AA for two years now, and been generally pleased. I hope John and/or eBay come to their senses. There ARE other alternatives out there, some quite reasonably priced.

Steve

steve@auctionusers.org

By Ron Bynum (rbynum) on Thursday, February 08, 2001 - 11:11 pm:

Now that I have thought about this dilemma for a while I have come to the conclusion that it may not be all bad. Look at it this way....

Now that they will be charging rent for software we have already purchased, we will all stop using it and possibly stop selling on eBay entirely. This will give us more free time to spend with our families and friends. Heck, if all the software companies get wind of this they may start doing the same thing. When that happens we will most likely shut down our computers for good. We will not be so sedentary and might actually get more exercise than we do now. Our health will improve tremendously! We'll play more sports, work out in the yard more, go camping, all the stuff we love to do but can't find the time because we a chained to this stupid box.

With increased fees across the board, postal rate increases, PayPal and Bill Point fees, the cost of shipping supplies, the cost for internet access, computers, printers, paper, ink, electricity, etc., who's making a profit anyway?

So, in a way I'd really like to thank Blackthorne and eBay for changing our lives for the better. Way to go guys!!

By KI (happy) on Friday, February 09, 2001 - 12:17 am:

THANK YOU JOHN!!!!!!!!!!!!!! For the past few years you have cornered the market of auction listers, and your greedy partner has taken their place in the world as the "king of auctions" however, now that the truth has reared it's ugly head, the path can be made for smaller companies to expand with the overabundance of people looking for a new source of income.
ME AND EVERY HOSTING, AUCTION, PROGRAMMING, (ETC, ETC) SITE WOULD LIKE TO SAY THANK YOU, BECAUSE WE HAVE YOUR CUSTOMERS, AND THE SAME CUSTOMERS THAT MADE YOU SO RICH AND FAMOUS, WILL CAUSE YOUR DOWNFALL, AND OUR UPRISING!

By sad (goodbye) on Friday, February 09, 2001 - 12:27 am:

PHONE NUMBER FOR BLACKTHORNE, CALL THEM UNTIL THEY DISCONECT THE PHONES!!!!!!!!!!
570 888 5771

PHONE NUMBER FOR EBAY, NOT SURE IF IT STILL WORKS, OR WHICH DIVISION/OFFICE IT TAKES YOU TO, BUT CANT HURT TO TRY!
408 558 5925

By sheri smith (sheri) on Friday, February 09, 2001 - 02:07 am:

John

Same here!! We feel we've been duped!! I think it's time to be specific & tell us just what these major upgrades can do FOR us!! besides COST.......or we're out the door..... AA classic I'll miss you

By MRCA Enterprises, LLC/Two-Dragons.Com (mrca) on Friday, February 09, 2001 - 08:58 am:

Well I guess my average of $2200.00 a month in fees to ebay isn't enough. The raise my listing fees an average of 20%, now they are going to make me pay another $20.00 a month to use my own software. I am sure this is only the tip of the iceberg. Just like the Post Office's $0.01 increase that worked into a major increase in priority and overseas rates (my $48,000.00 in postage last year wasn't enough for them either.) I work an average of 14 hours a day 7 days a week and I love what I do. It would be nicer however if I got to keep some of the money I bring in.

I will probably not stop using Blackthorne's software because my entire business is set up on their system. But I must say I am extremely disappointed in you John. I have spent a lot of money calling Blackthorne support and waiting patiently (on my dime) while John, Al etal worked through the problem. This has helped them to make improvements to the software as well as fix some bugs thus making AAPro a better package. Some of these bugs have cost me lots of money. Like the time AAPro double listed 800 auctions. I have never complained!!

John, you have sold us out!! I will probably continue to use your products because I see no clear choice. There is nothing I have found yet that will allow me to keep my 600-1000 auctions running all the time (If anyone knows of such a program e-mail me).

I will never again recommend AAPRO or Blackthorne Software and will be removing the Blackthorne link from all my auctions as of their next posting.

By sad (goodbye) on Friday, February 09, 2001 - 09:56 am:

EVERYONE, JOHN AND EBAY KNOW THEY CAN DO THIS TO US BECAUSE OF THE NUMBERS THAT SHOW UP ON EBAY OF HOW MANY PEOPLE ARE USING THIS SOFTWARE, PLEASE REMEMBER TO IMMEDIATLY TAKE HIS NAME OF YOUR LISTINGS, SO THAT NEXT TIME THEY WANT TO BRAG ABOUT WHAT A WONDERFUL PRODUCT THEY HAVE, THEY WONT BE ABLE TO PROVE A THING!!!!!!

ALSO, ALTHOUGH AA WILL NO LONGER BE ABLE TO FILL IN ALL THE STUFF ON THE FIRST PAGE FOR LISTING AN AUCTION, IT WILL STILL DO YOUR HTML FOR YOU!!!!! YOU WILL JUST HAVE 2 EXTRA STEPS, FILLING IN THE FORM, AND COPYING AND PASTING,OK? SLIGHTLY MORE TIME CONSUMING, BUT YOU SHOULD STILL GET LOVELY LOOKINGS ADDS, FASTER THEN DOING BY HAND. OFF COURSE, THAT ALL DEPENDS ON IF EBAY AND JOHN SET OF SOME TIME OF A "TIME BOMB" THAT CRASHES AA, AND YOU KNOW THEY ARE THINKING OF IT . . .

By sad (goodbye) on Friday, February 09, 2001 - 10:21 am:

BY THE WAY, I JUST CHECKED AND THERE ARE 316,774 AUCTIONS USING THIS CROCK OF A PRODUCT, ALTHOUGH IT IS UNREALISTIC FOR US ALL TO STOP USING IT, AT LEAST TAKE HIS NAME OFF!! THIS IS HOW YOU DO IT:

WHEN LISTING AN ITEM, ON THE FIRST FORM OF EBAYS, GO TO THE BIG BLOCK, ABOUT 1/4 OF THE WAY DOWN THE PAGE, WHERE AA FILLS IN YOUR AUCTION DESCRIPTION, (UNDERNEATH THE AREA FOR YOUR TITLE)

USE THE ARROWS KEYS TO THE RIGHT TO SCROLL DOWN TO THE VERY BOTTOM OF THE HTML/DESCRIPTION. YOU WILL SEE THIS:


This HTML automatically generated with
AuctionAssistant Pro from
Blackthorne Software.

YOU MUST DELETED EVERYTHING I HAVE PLACED ABOVE, NOTHING MORE, AND NOTHING LESS, OK?

YOU CAN DO THIS TO ALL YOUR AUCTIONS THAT ARE CURRENTLY ON EBAY, THAT HAVE NOT ALREADY HAD A BID.

I REALLY HOPE EVERY ONE DOES THIS, I WILL BE POSTING THIS MESSAGE SEVERAL TIMES TODAY, AND HOPEFULLY BY TONIGHT, THAT 316,774 NUMBER WILL HAVE FALLEN DRASTICALLY. OBVIOUSLY EBAY DOES NOT LISTEN TO ITS OVERPAYING CUSTOMERS, BUT RATHER CAN ONLY HERE $$$$ AND NUMBERS, SO THIS IS PROBABLY ONE OF THE ONLY WAYS TO GET IT ACROSS TO THEM!! DO THIS QUICKLY! IT ONLY TAKES SECONDS TO DO, AND IS ALOT EASIER THEN "QUITTING YOUR JOBS!"

By Dan Adney (danadney) on Friday, February 09, 2001 - 10:24 am:

John & Ebay,
If you think your idea is so good, I DARE YOU to try to sell it on it's own merit, and NOT milk your current customer base. I would appreciate a response to this idea. *************
I also expect and demand that you remove the free advertisement which is configured into the html for your product, which I have been forced to paying for ever since I started using your AAC & AAP. OR you can refund .10 per auction that I have ever listed with you the AAPro product. Or leave it and pay all my auction listing fees for now on.*********************
I am personally going to hold you Ebay/Blackthorne accountable to your original agreement when I PURCHASED MY LISCENSE FOR AACLASSIC AND AAPRO. ****************What I see happening is possibly a slow down in Ebay volume has taken place and a slow down in AA sales which may have prompted the idea to MILK sellers and now instead of being creative and increasing volume, Ebay has decided again to take it out of our hide. *************** When eBay sold its soul to Stockholders they were force to change, the same has happened to Blackthornesw.************
Greed is a hideous thing which attacks under the cloak of deception and justification. *******************I am all for free enterprise and making a profit but I am dead set against Monopoly and Antitrust activity. I believe there is a fine line being walked on these issues in regard to the Ebay/Blackthorne union.***************Bait and switch is ILLEGAL in a grocery store, even with a can a green green beans.

By sad (goodbye) on Friday, February 09, 2001 - 10:31 am:

AHHH!! HTML CODE DISAPEARED, OK, HERE IT IS AGAIN, HOWEVER, WHERE EVER I HAVE A ( ) IT REALLY WOULD BE A > OR < ON YOU LISTING, OK?

(center)(small)This HTML automatically generated with
(A HREF="http://www.blackthornesw.com/bthome/products.htm" target="_blank")AuctionAssistant Pro(/A) from
(A HREF="http://www.blackthornesw.com/bthome/" target="_blank")Blackthorne Software.(/a)(/small)(/center)

By sad (goodbye) on Friday, February 09, 2001 - 11:37 am:

WOW! IT GOT QUIET HERE REALY FAST? ALSO NOTICE THAT NOW ONLY 314,602 IS SHOWING INSTEAD OF 316,774! ONLY TIME WILL TELL! HOPEFULLY TONIGHT, ONLY 100,000 WILL REMAIN! TELL YOUR FRIENDS, ETC! LETS GET THIS INTO ACTION, WE CAN PROVE TO EBAY WE ARE UPSET, RATHER THEN TYPING TYPING TYPING!

By Debbie Thomas (lollypopdeb) on Friday, February 09, 2001 - 11:55 am:

I'm with Ron. I am going to clean out my inventory with my "free" year and quit.It is'nt worth it. I will spend time with my new grandaughter, sewing for her, church functions, etc.If I do decide to sell something once in a great while I will do it on my own.I did it before I can do it again. I feel for the sellers who depend on their ebay money to make a living. I did it for extra spending money. Now I will have extra time. The one thing that really bothers me is that I recommended this product to a friend and they bought it. Some friend I am,huh.It isn't the money it's the principle.

By Robert O. Sachs (rosachs) on Friday, February 09, 2001 - 12:39 pm:

Everyone keeps harping on "good companies" and "ethical treatment" and "moral positions". At what point did ePay become a good company, treating
their paying customers ethically, and having any kind of morals? They answer to the shareholders, and the shareholders want more money on the bottom
line. Since the novelty of online auctions is gone, the only way to increase profits is to charge more for what you already have! No new costs, just more income!

And just who did you think was going to pay the purchase price for Blackthorne?? ePay ain't gonna take that money out of their pockets!! It's coming out of ours folks!! One month at a time, for the rest of our association with the software.


A dual mode model would be a much better solution, but they aren't looking for solutions, they are looking for profits. Selling once and offering a
maintenance contract is too old school. And it doesn't add enough to the bottom line. Keep the money coming in nice and steady... that makes the shareholders happy.

And before y'all get on the shareholders, check your mutual funds, IRA accounts, and bank and insurance investments. We ALL own a piece of ePay, somewhere, somehow. As one of the few long-term, profitable Internet businesses, ePay is in more portfolios than you might think!!


It's all about the money - plain and simple. The whiners and complainers will go away. The threatened lawsuits will never come to pass, and if they do will not stand up in face of the purchase contract terms (standard contract terms give BOTH parties an out - why should this one be any different?). It's a done deal and ePay has no "reputation" left to protect, so why would they worry?

And where else could we go, honestly? What other site can offer the sheer volume of buyers?? You can list on other sites - always could. How many do?? ePay controls the market, period. All the other sites combined don't come close, and ePay knows it. The first sign of a monopoly is the ability to ignore complaints without fear of reprisal. 300K+ auctions out of how many? Not noticeable...

Even if every Blackthorne customer were to cease ePay postings and post elsewhere, it wouldn't be but a drop in the bucket - and there are three others waiting in the wings to take the place of each and every one of us. They can't move in yet, since we have the feedback ratings and they don't. But if we leave, they will move in as surely as death, taxes, and rising ePay fees. Nature hates a vacuum.


I'm taking my free year. If my budding business can survive the year, I'll most likely be forced into the monthly fees, and have to pass that cost along to either the buyers or my owners (I do consignment auctions), because I barely make enough to make it worthwhile as it is. When it reaches the point where I can make more money flipping burgers at McDonalds, I'm gone. I love what I do, but I love my family more, and I'm not working 24x7 for ePay.

It's been a great ride, one of the best. I've been buying and selling online for years, before ePay even. Anyone remember FIDOnet?? But if there is no reward for my time and effort, if that reward is eaten away by the very activity itself, then the only reason to do it would be for the buyers or for the shear pleasure. I love my buyers, but not that much. And the pleasure burned out long ago. So it pretty much boils down to the bottom line for me as well. Take it away, and I'm gone. Unlike ePay, I can't raise my rates - there are too many others who do what I do and do it just as well. My clients appreciate my work and my honesty, but they have businesses to run as well, and families to feed (their own and their employees'). ePay is strangling the goose......

By sad (goodbye) on Friday, February 09, 2001 - 12:41 pm:

EVERYONE!!! YIPPEEE!!! KEEP UP THE HARD WORK! SINCE MY FIRST POSTING, OVER 4,526 AUCTIONS HAVE HAD THE LOGO REMOVED KEEP IT UP! AND REMEMBER, NOW YOU CAN SAFETLY LIST YOUR AUTCIONS, WITH OUT GIVING THEM THEIR "UNDUE" CREDITS!!!!!!!! YEEEEEAH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

By Jane S. Coloma (anteeka) on Friday, February 09, 2001 - 12:56 pm:

rosachs:Thank you for your reasoned and realistic post. As the acute sting becomes a dull ache and the moral indignation becomes moral resignation, we all will have to make some hard choices.

By Lyndon Brittner (lbrittner) on Friday, February 09, 2001 - 05:44 pm:

I talked with a Hawthorne rep yesterday. And this is what we determined.

The new versions of Auction Assistant will not over write your old ones. So take the free trial. When it is over, go back to your old versions. They can't cut off our ability to revert.

We had a lengthy discussion about this and this is what we determined. (I say we, because the Hawthorne person I spoke with wasn't overwhelmed with joy about the new tactics either). Up until now we owned the software when we purchased it. Under the new plan we will not own it - we will rent it. If we stop paying rent, our ability to use the software is terminated.

This is not about making it easy for Hawthorne/ebay to upgrade. It is about forcing us to constantly cough up more money each month if we want to sell.

In the real software world, if a new version is released, I get to choose if the upgrades deem it worth while to spend the money to upgrade. Under the Hawthorne/ebay scenario, it takes the pressure off them to create good software, because we will be forced to upgrade, no matter what. I have found in my business dealings that it is better to get a worthwhile delivered product before paying. But Hawthorne wants it the other way around.

Sorry Hawthorne, but I am much more comfortable owning the software outright, and then making my own decisions in the future if I would like to fork out more money for a so called "improved" version.

We are getting hosed on this new deal.

And to take it a step further, we really shouldn't have to pay at all. When Hawthorne was private, yes, it needed to charge to pay for development. But now that ebay owns it, they should be giving it to us for free. The reason most of us use Auction assistant in the first place is because ebays method of launching auctions is a P.O.S.

Ebay is biting the hand that feeds us my charging its best sellers to pay for the ability to launch an auction in a convenient manner. I'll bet that without software like Auction Assistant, the listings would be half of what they are today.

Every time we turn around, ebay wants a piece of our **s. We pay to launch, list and sell.

Forget this monthly fee garbage. I for one won't pay it. I will go elsewhere.

If you really want to do what's right give it for free! Even the Hawthorne guy that called me thought it should be free.

I am going to go to ebays offices in Salt Lake and see it they have installed pay toilets for the employees.

By sad (goodbye) on Friday, February 09, 2001 - 05:46 pm:

I DUNNO YOU GUYS, IF EVERYONE WERE TO AT LEAST *TRY* TO STAND UP FOR THEMSELVES, NOT USING AA IS UNREALISTIC, BUT WHY SHOULD WE BE DOING ALL THIS COMPLAINGING, IF YOU WONT EVEN TAKE THE COUPLE OF SECONDS TO AT LEAST PULL THEIR ADDS? I MEAN, AS OF THIS MORNING, THERE WERE 316,744 "FREE ADDS" FOR AA SPREAD ALL OVER EBAY! UMMM, LET ME REPHRASE THAT, WE HAD TO PAY AA TO LET US ADVERTISE FOR THEM, AS IF THAT IS NOT ENOUGH, NOW THEY WANT US TO RENT THE BILLBOARD THAT IS GETTING THEM THE CUSTOMERS!! ANYWAYS, 3000 MIGHT NOT BE MUCH, BUT AS OF TONIGHT, IT IS DOWN TO 301,432 WHICH MEANS THAT 15,312 ADDS HAVE BEEN REMOVED! CAN YOU BELEIVE THAT? BUT THATS NOT ENOUGH!! LETS SPREAD THE WORD, TO MAKE SURE PEOPLE SEE HOW IMPORTANT THIS IS

By Ron Bynum (rbynum) on Friday, February 09, 2001 - 09:32 pm:

Hey folks, there seems to be one thing we are overlooking here. I've been checking ePay's forums and can't seem to find a great deal on this issue. How about we start flooding their forums with these messages as well. After all, that's where the decisions are being made anyway. Let's start informing all the other ePay users what's going on and how we are being sold down the river. Posting here is great, but let's get to the real source of the problem. Let's cut and paste everything over there!

By sad (goodbye) on Saturday, February 10, 2001 - 01:23 am:

GOOD NEWS EVERYONE! AS OF NOW THERE ARE ONLY 282,922 SHOWING UP WITH THE AA ADDS! I GUESS PART IS DUE TO THE FACT THAT MOST PEOPLE TRY TO HAVE THEIR AUCTIONS ENDING TODAY, HOPEFULLY THOUGH, AS EVERYONE RELISTS THEM, THEY WILL CONTINUE TO TAKE OUT THE ADDS!!! THIS IS 33,852 LESS THEN THERE WAS THIS MORNING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

By Jane S. Coloma (anteeka) on Saturday, February 10, 2001 - 08:59 am:

It's a done deal, folks. Has been for quite some time. We can take the ads off, switch to another software, do it all ourselves and use no software application..or stick with this one and pay the rent. The majority of the questions have not being answered. And most are legitimate, reasonable questions. I guess nobody wants to take the heat, choosing instead to avoid the indignation, disappointment, and anger that would come with any honest dialog here. Well, Blackthorne, you have sure dished it out. You may have no choice in complying with ebay edicts, but you could have at least come in here and been honorable in facing your long time and loyal customers! Not a few selective posts, but sticking it out and participating over the entire course of this discussion. John, you said at the beginning of this discussion this board would be manned to answer any of our questions. It hasn't happened. I don't expect it will. It was a clear statement which has not been honored. It looks like that is how it will stand. How very sad.

By Thomas Kirby (trotter13) on Saturday, February 10, 2001 - 09:48 am:

Lets all pick a day or even a week that we will not post anything on ebay! When their bottom line gets "WACKED" maybe they will see the light.

TOM KIRBY

By Jane S. Coloma (anteeka) on Saturday, February 10, 2001 - 10:53 am:

Thomas: I think the best way to register our displeasure is to begin moving our support away from ebay. Practically speaking, this is a process. For every 2 listings placed on ebay, list 1 on another site. When you want to buy something, search other sites for it, and if possible, make your purchase there. It is buyers more than sellers that create a viable auction site. ebay knows this very well. They do not mess with buyers, do they? Sellers are easy to come by. A loyal buying base is not. Boycotting ebay as a buyer will be far more effective than boycotting as a seller, IMO. What is the most common complaint about all the other auction sites? No bids..no buyers. If sales were to be had on another site, sellers would be outa here in a heartbeat.

By Kai Scott (kaifox) on Saturday, February 10, 2001 - 11:10 am:

Dear John,
Upgrades and product development are cornerstones of business growth, but do not underestimate the power of a customer - satisfied or otherwise. After having downloaded a copy of your AA Classic in Dec 2000 and loving it, I purchased a copy for my part time business near the middle of January,2001. I now find out less than a month after purchasing your software that there will be a monthly user fee in order to remain upgraded as of Spring 2002 (assuming the year's grace period of free use). This monthly fee, when summed to a yearly basis, will amount to almost exactly what I purchased this item for in the first place. Please do not assume I am saying that all of your previous clients should receive your new versions for free. Product development costs money, and I understand that it is an expense that must be passed on. However, in your previous business model, I would have been able to purchase upgrades to my existing software at a fraction of the cost for purchasing a new system outright. In addition to my part time ebay selling, I am self employed in a service and product industry. I know the value of maintaining previous client satisfaction. Your new policy seem designed to do anything but keep previous clients pleased with your product and service. If I ran my business in such a fashion, it would not be long before I was filing bankruptcy. I ask that you please reconsider your policy on monthly fees that you intend to charge faithful clients. Surely there is a compromise in the middle ground between the cost of new product development, maintaining faith with previous customers and profit margins. I will pursue my other options (choosing a different company and product or possible legal recourse) while I await your final decision. Again, while I have no trouble grasping the concept of a business decision made in the interests of profit and product development, I cannot find the words to appropriately express how repugnant I find your new policy as it affects previous clients - the same clients who helped to make Blackthorne what it is today.
Sincerely,
Kai Scott

By John Slocum (jslocum) on Saturday, February 10, 2001 - 11:18 am:

Kai,

If you have ordered within the last 30 days, then you are entitled to a refund. You can now reconsider your decision based upon the knowledge you currently have. As far as the pricing is concerned, it was not decided lightly. It was determined based on the market, and if you compare it to sites that charge based on a % of sale price, or a site the recently starting charging $20/month for a service that used to be free, you will find that we offer a very good value.

John

By Nevin Pratt (nevinpratt) on Saturday, February 10, 2001 - 12:28 pm:

John,

I ordered the upgrade form AA to AAPro 12 days ago-- well within the 30 day limit. How do I apply for and get my refund?

Nevin Pratt
nevin@smalltalk.org

By Michael W Curran (quadcitycoin) on Saturday, February 10, 2001 - 12:58 pm:

True to eBay form, announce that you can register for a year free if a current user, but don't tell how or where to register

By Blackthorne Tech Support (help) on Saturday, February 10, 2001 - 01:15 pm:

Nevin,

You can send an email to sales@blackthornesw.com. Please mention that you have purchased within the last 30 days.

Michael,

As mentioned in the announcement letter, more details will follow once the products are released.

By Lyndon Brittner (lbrittner) on Saturday, February 10, 2001 - 02:01 pm:

I have gone one step further.

Not only have I romoved the Blackthorne credit from my listing, But I have replaced it with this message:
This HTML automatically generated by myself.
ebay and Blackthorne Software have found another way to squeeze funds from sellers by placing a monthly fee for users of Auction Assistant. We ask that all sellers refuse to pay for the rental of software that has already been purchased.

By Tad Palka (skimohwk) on Saturday, February 10, 2001 - 02:26 pm:

WORLDS MOST EXPENSIVE UPGRADE
$5980.80 FOR 10 YEARS
$11,961.60 FOR 20 YEARS
AND JOHN CALLS THAT CUSTOMER LOYALITY,
thanks john

By sad (goodbye) (24.161.239.36 - 24.161.239.36) on Saturday, February 10, 2001 - 11:22 pm:

$200 for a "buggy" program . . .

$200 a year for so called "upgrades" . . .

. . .seeing the look on john's and ebay's faces when their greedy little world comes crashing down around them . . .PRICELESS . . .

By sad (goodbye) (24.161.239.36 - 24.161.239.36) on Saturday, February 10, 2001 - 11:32 pm:

CAN SOME ONE FROM AA PLEASE LET US KNOW WHAT THESE NEW WONDERFUL FEATURES ARE SUPPOSED TO INCLUDE? EBAY SAYS:
With Seller’s Assistant Basic, you can easily:
- Create attractive bulk listings
- Track and store sales information
- Generate invoices and other customer correspondence
- Automatically fill in user feedback

Seller’s Assistant Pro does all of the above and also allows you to:
- Schedule when your listings will be submitted
- Print shipping labels
- Generate sales report

I ALREADY PAID $200 LAST YEAR FOR THAT!! SO I WANT TO KNOW WHAT NEW STUFF I AM GETTING FOR $200!! BY THE WAY, I DONT WANT SUPPORT, SO IF THAT IS WHAT A PERCENTAGE OF MY MONEY IS GOING TO, THEN I DONT WANT TO HAVE ACCESS TO IT, AND I REFUSE TO PAY FOR THAT PORTION . . .
OK, HERE IS ANOTHER GOOD QUESTION FOR YOU THAT I HOPE I GET AN ANSWER TO, ARE YOU TRYING TO TELL US THAT AA WILL NOW BE HAVING UPGRADES EVERY SINGLE MONTH?? IF NOT, THEN HOW ARE YOU GOING TO BILL US? IF THIS PROGRAM IS NOT A SERVER BASED PROGRAM, AND NEXT MONTH, YOU DO NOT MAKE AN UPGRADE, THEN HOW ARE YOU GOING TO FORCE ME TO PAY FOR IT, I MEAN, HOW ARE YOU GOING TO STOP ME FROM USING IT?

By donna appel (av9) (66.20.220.17 - 66.20.220.17) on Sunday, February 11, 2001 - 12:50 pm:

Sounds like we are all in the same ball park. I say lets start making a real team effort as sellers to find a new auction site. If enough of us leave Ebay, maybe someone will take notice. Ebay has gotten ridiculous. They nickle and dime us sellers for everything and now after being a loyal blackthorne user and beta test user they want to stick us some more. To date, my AAPro software is still not doing what I was told it would. I'm sure someone out there will come up with something that will suit our needs and not those of Ebay. I don't know about the rest of you, but I personally hate Ebay and can't wait til I find another location to peddle my goods and along with it, software to make it simplier. As far as I'm concerned, Blackthorne sold out and they did it at our expense. They knew that if we knew what they had planned, we would have never ever agreed to test their product. At least that statement is true for me. Let me know anyone if you find an alternative. I'll be there with bells on my toes. I guess what angers me most about blackthrone is that the upgrades are necessary to keep up with Ebay. I did not purchase the software for Ebay alone. It was peddled as being useful for other auction sites as well as for our own tracking purposes. They have now turned it into something that is really meant to be used with Ebay. YUK..... as I have stated before .... I HATE EBAY and now I'm on a mission to find an alternative site to take my power seller name and items too. Ebay may be big today, but it sounds as though we need to cut them down a few pegs if that is at all possible and I know it is if there are enough of us out there that are willing to give them a run for the money.

By Ron Bynum (rbynum) (4.42.56.228 - 4.42.56.228) on Sunday, February 11, 2001 - 02:20 pm:

Donna,

You are absolutely correct. ePay has gotten way to big for it's britches. Let's face it, who needs all those bells and whistles anyway? They insist that they have to add, add, add! All we need as sellers or buyers is a place to list, sell, and buy. We don't need all the fancy add-ons and features that keep turning up. It seems that the biggest bone of contention is catagories. Everything has to change as they add more catagories. I don't know about you, but I don't think they are really important. Who needs them? Who searches by catagory anyway? If the site were kept simple it would function just fine (and so would our auction software), but no, it's one new feature after another. Many of which do not factor into the sale in any way. Oh, don't get me started.....

Let it suffice to say that alternate sites should be explored by all of us. I am no power seller, but I do my fair share of selling. I have as many as 100 auctions running at times. I don't have any running right now. I'm trying to decide if I want to do any more business with ePay. Not sure I want to give them any more of my money. Their hands are far to deep in my pockets already. Maybe I will, maybe I won't!

I can tell you this for sure, I'll not pay one red cent to rent software I already own. I've begun evaluating other software packages already. There are a lot of them out there. Surely one of them will suit our needs.