ian mackaye interview



Ian MacKaye has been a seminal part of punk rock music for more than 18 years. His roster of bands includes Teen Idles, Minor Threat, Egghunt, Embrace, Skewbald/Grand Union, and Fugazi. He is the co-founder (along with Jeff Nelson) of Dischord Records and has consistently remained a vital, relevant, active member of the scene. To me personally, this interview was a veritable milestone. I've admired MacKaye for years - both as a fan of his many bands as well as a fan of his unwavering ability to do what he believes in, and as a fan of the direct and honest direction he steers Dischord in - and, as cheesy as it may sound, he is truly one of the few people I still find actually inspiring. The biggest reason for that is that everything I've just summed up in this incredibly-scaled down intro is all seemingly nothing more than a product of simple common sense - an innate trait that somehow comes across as so much more profound when you're talking about Ian MacKaye.

[What follows is the unedited transcript of my telephone conversation with Ian which took place sometime in 1998; an edited version appeared in Spank #24]

Ian: Alrighty then, are you in a good interview mood?

SPANK: SURE. NOT REALLY - I ALWAYS FEEL LIKE AN ASS DOING INTERVIEWS.
Well, I'll do my best not to make you feel like any more of an ass than you already do.

THANK YOU. I APPRECIATE THAT.
Did I meet you at the Kansas City Zine Convention last April?

NO - I WAS TOO CHICKENSHIT TO SAY ANYTHING TO YOU. PLUS, I WAS REALLY SICK. THAT'S PART OF MY RATIONALIZATION ANYWAY - I WAS TOO SICK TO TALK TO YOU.
Why were you chicken shit? I'm a fairly approachable person, I think.

IT'S TOTALLY MY OWN HANG UP.
I had a great time that day. That's the only time I've ever done that sort of talking and I loved it. I'm almost to the point where I'm going to start calling around to colleges and places and seeing if there's somewhere who will let me talk. I love talking to people. I find it really interesting. I'm thinking about eventually trying to go to some coffee shops or something. I'll just drive around by myself and talk to people. I think that would be fun. I used to play baseball for the DC Public Playgrounds when I was growing up and our coach used to have this thing called "the cage". He would stand at the pitcher's mound and just bat balls at you while you stand in the cage and you just have to try and catch all the balls and stop them before they hit the fence. That's sort of the way I felt at that zine convention. We just opened up the floor and let anybody ask any question. I loved it.

YOU HAD SUCH A GREAT APPROACH TO IT, TOO. YOU DIDN'T WALK INTO THE ROOM AND GIVE A SPEECH. YOU WALKED IN, SAT DOWN ON A TABLE AND JUST TALKED, TOLD STORIES AND STUFF. YOU MADE IT REALLY COMFORTABLE.
It was great. I'm very thankful that those people asked me to come.

I JUST GOT STUFF IN THE MAIL ABOUT THIS YEAR'S ZINE CONVENTION AND JELLO BIAFRA'S GOING TO SPEAK.
Oh, good. He'll talk your head off. He will go on for four hours. My man Jello can digress. Give him my regards should you talk to him. I WILL DO THAT. Thanks.

NO PROBLEM. SO, AT THE ZINE CONVENTION, YOU TALKED ABOUT HOW PEOPLE BEGAN PUTTING BIG BLACK 'X'ES ON THEIR HANDS...
We were in a pitched battle with the clubs in Washington because we were trying to get in to see shows and they weren't letting us in because we were under 18 which was the drinking age in Washington at the time. So, we did some research and discovered that there's a law that states that minors are not allowed to be in bars. But there's another law that states that any establishment that serves liquor must also serve food. So, technically, there is no such thing as a "bar" because a "bar" is defined as an establishment that serves solely liquor. These places decided that the risk of getting punished for discriminating against a minor was far less severe than punishment for serving alcohol to a minor so they just wouldn't let us in. So we decided to push the issue and called up the clubs and said, 'Listen, we'll guarantee that we're not going to drink. And the way we'll do that is we'll mark big 'X'es on our hand and if you ever see anyone with an 'X' drinking, 86 them - 86 all of us. Kick us out. But let us see the music.' I mean, jesus christ, that was what we lived for. It was really just a utilitarian concept. We included it on the cover of our [Minor Threat's] first record but it wasn't about us trying to start some movement, it was more bout what a regular old punk rock kid might look like. The Xes were just meant to signify that were all so young, not necessarily that we were all so "straight". It got picked up, though, as some great icon, as a symbol of some movement that I have very little to do with.

DON'T PEOPLE ASSUME YOU HAVE A LOT MORE TO DO WITH STRAIGHT EDGE THOUGH?
I would guess since virtually interview, except for this one and maybe a handful of others, the interviewer has asked me about it, I guess so. I didn't coin the phrase, though, know what I mean?

I DO. YOU WERE ALSO TALKING ABOUT HOW YOU FELT MORE OF A CONNECTION WITH PEOPLE WHO PUBLISHED ZINES AS OPPOSED TO "MUSIC" PEOPLE, WHICH IS WHY YOU AGREED TO APPEAR AT THE ZINE CONVENTION BUT HAVE NOT AGREED TO APPEAR AT SEVERAL MUSIC CONVENTIONS WHO HAVE REQUESTED YOUR PRESENCE.
I actually just turned down yet another invitation to speak at an industry convention in Memphis called Crossraods, which is sort of their SXSW, CMJ, or whatever. But basically they're really trade shows about the industry and I don't really feel like I'm a part of that industry at all. There's some resemblance but really not any more so than what there is between someone making a fine, organic muffin as compared to, say, McDonalds. That's the way it is. They're both food but I'm not sure they really have anything more in common other than the fact that you can put them both in your mouth and chew. I guess I feel like the fanzine community... the notion of an underground media is something I support because that's sort of part of the community that I belong to. I don't necessarily always agree with all the fanzines but I think it's cool that people who work on those things usually do so with little to no hope of any kind of financial reward and really it's just their devotion to their interest, their scene, or whatever. You know, it's a mission to document or record or report upon these things they find important to them. For me, that's the same reason I started a label. I felt like this music, this punk rock community, was so important in my life that I wanted to document it. I wanted to make it available to other people who might have an interest, whether it's a matter of taste or just of a historical significance. I just wanted to make it available. And I think, in a lot of ways, what sets the Washington music scene apart from a lot of other scenes is that fact that we've been fairly painstaking about documenting everything and it makes it seem... well, first of all, I think it made it appear to be a kind of cohesive scene and then it became a much more cohesive scene. I read fanzines. I don't read rock magazines. We get tons and tons of fanzines here and I look through them. Although I'm getting pretty bored with all the damn ska zines.

YEAH, SKA IS SLOWLY TAKING OVER THE UNIVERSE. But it will recede like all the other locusts. I THINK THE ZINE COMMUNITY SEEMS TO BE DIVIDING THOUGH. IT SEEMS LIKE ZINES WHO STARTED 10 YEARS AGO SNUB ZINES WHO STARTED 5 YEARS AGO AND ZINES WHO STARTED 5 YEARS AGO COMPLETELY IGNORE ANY ZINES STARTING NOW.
I think it depends on why you're doing the zine. I don't believe there's any correct time to be doing or not to be doing a zine. The passion I look for in zines is always the passion of the writer or the editor, the person behind the zine. If they feel something really strongly then I think that is prevalent in their writing and how their publication is organized. That's the way I look at it, at least. I can see a lot of trends. I've been reading fanzines pretty steadily since 1980 and I've seen trends come in and out. I will say that about three or four years ago, I found zines becoming a lot more personal. There were a lot more people talking about their own lives and a lot more journal-type stuff that I really enjoyed. I think I'm a bit of a voyeur in a way. I'm really interested in what people do and these zines that were filled with verbal sketches of people's lives I found really interesting. That was quite a trend for a while and now I don't see that nearly as much. Every once in a while, I see one that's really good and pretty solid. Usually, in a zine, the interviews and the show reviews I don't find that interesting, but I always like the editorials. Because, to me, that's writing. On occasion, I see an interview I think is cool. Besides, I can't keep up with the bands anymore.

IT'S TOO MUCH, HUH?
If I could hear these bands and if I had some idea of the context, then I might be able to appreciate it more. But I just can't keep up. But on the other hand, even though I haven't heard a band, I'll see the band being reported in a number of different fanzines and I'll get a sense of the kind of impact they're having. I'll still have no idea what they sound like. The Promise Ring comes to mind. I see those guys everywhere. Have you interviewed them?

I HAVE. I GOT TO TALK WITH THE MEMBER OF THE BAND THAT I THINK IS GENERALLY DISCOURAGED FROM DOING THE INTERVIEWS, THOUGH. HE WAS KIND OF OWEY AND DEFENSIVE ABOUT THINGS.
Did you just say "owey"? YES. What does "owey" mean? Sensitive?

PRETTY MUCH.
Owey. Owey. Interesting.

WHAT SORT OF REACTIONS DO YOU ENCOUNTER FROM PEOPLE JUST ON AN EVERYDAY LEVEL?
That depends on whether I'm being recognized or not.

PEOPLE DON'T RECOGNIZE YOU?
I don't know, I seem to be able to negotiate through life without too much hassle. When I walk around with Henry [Rollins], it's insane. Henry grew up here, we've been best friends since we were 12. So when he comes home and we walk around, people are always yelling, 'Henry! Hey Henry!' It drives me crazy. It's just insane. Every restaurant, every wait staff argues about who gets to bring him his food. It's ridiculous. I don't really have that much of a problem. I an walk around and no one says a damn word to me.

REALLY? I FIND THAT SURPRISING.
I think that in my own world, I'm significant. And I think that in the larger world, I am insignificant. That's fine with me. Either way. I'm happy about it in many ways because it gives me the option of being recognized or not. It does affect me in some ways. Like, for instance, there are some bands that I like a lot that I look at. There are some bands I like a lot that I dance to. It doesn't mean I don't like a band if I don't dance. But then one day I was watching a show and I was kind of dancing around and a couple of days later, someone said to me, 'Oh, I heard you were dancing at this show.' It gave me the creeps. The problem then becomes not who I dance to but who I don't dance to. So I just don't dance to anybody anymore. That sucks.

OH NO, THAT'S A SAD STORY.
And the thing is, I wasn't even really dancing. I was probably just nodding my head vigorously.

WHICH IS THE PUNK ROCK EQUIVALENT OF DANCING.
Exactly. So, occasionally, I feel uncomfortable. Sometimes I go to shows where I sense that people are looking at me and that bothers me quite a bit because, for me, it was always about being a part of the community not to have to mind my behavior because everybody recognized me because I have such a reputation. I was always looking for a safe home and now I really don't feel that so much - I feel much more uncomfortable. Also, I feel the other thing is the fact that I've been around so long I'm a little self-conscious about people thinking, 'Oh, God, it's him again.' Last night, I helped present this video of early West Coast punk rock stuff - I had all this stuff I'd collected over the years so we edited it together into an hour and a half video - it was really good. We showed it at the Black Cat, had like 130 people come out and I had a really good time. But when they were doing up the programs, they wanted to put my name on there and I was like, 'Oh, just leave it off, for god's sakes. People see my name enough.' People are just going to say, 'Oh, here's Ian, he's doing it again.' It's got to get pretty boring after a while. I have a very small struggle on occasion with name recognition but I'm still just a speck.

I HAVE A CONFESSION TO MAKE: I'M RELATIVELY OBSESSED WITH THE MOVIE ANOTHER STATE OF MIND.
You saw it on Night Flight, didn't you?

I DID.
I knew it!

HOW DID YOU FEEL ABOUT THE MOVIE?
When I first saw it, I thought it was horrible. But I saw it years later and actually really liked it.

WHAT DID YOU THINK WAS HORRIBLE ABOUT IT?
It's revisionist. Their narrative is not accurate. They changed the story around to make it fit the movie. The part where they leave the bus in Washington - that's not true. They didn't do that. They made it to Texas before the bus died. What also really bugs me is, you know the scene where they take the p.a. away from Minor Threat? Well, I totally fried my voice that night and then the interview they did with me, they did it the next day and I just sound insane. I sound terrible. Every time I see it, it freaks me out because I sound so inarticulate and I can't believe what a moron I am.

THERE WERE SHADES OF THE GODFATHER...
Yeah. I also don't think I was making much sense, although people seem to have gotten something out of it, I really just seem like a big ape. But also, I guess I'm sensitive about punk rock because for me it's super real and I kind of felt like the guys who made the movie, these two brothers - and I'm not talking about the Stern brothers - seemed to kind of trivialize things in a way, in my estimation. I mean, when they show the guy teaching you how to slam dance - that's insane. No one did that shit. And those kids practicing their stage dives off of a diving board into their pool - none of that was like my life at all. And I always hoped that people would clearly see that we were of a different breed, compared to everywhere else. I just felt like we were way more real on a lot of levels. I was really touched by the stuff from Montreal - the guy in the wheelchair who says 'life is not amusement for me' - that guys is one of the most beautiful scenes in all cinematic history. And I love the other girl who says, '(spit)so I took his money (spit) and told him to (spit ) fuck off" - she was good. So like I said, when I looked at it again, I liked it. One thing I found really irritating is that one thing those guys did after they made the movie is that they sold a lot of the other footage they had to Ripley's Believe It Or Not with Jack Pallance for the "Weird Haircut Segment". So they had footage from my house on that show. I thought that was kind of a cop-out/sell-out thing. and the other thing I find very annoying, and one of these days I'm going to try to rectify this, is that the film got put up for sale and Shawn Stern tried to buy the film and Social Distortion's manager outbid him. I think the reason they outbid him is that they wanted to get control of the way Mike [Ness] was going to be presented, since I think Mike was kind of a junkie at that time - I don't know that, I'm just assuming that's the reason they did it. What bothers me is that with the purchase of the film, they also got all of the outtakes. I would love to get a hold of some of those because they have really in-depth footage of my house at the time and I would really like to get a hold of that stuff for my own records. I've got to call them up and see if I can work something out. Because for me, historically, I'd love to see it. I'd love to see what my house looked like then with all of us walking around. I don't know, it was kind of a cool film. I remember I used to go up to the Post Office and they'd say, 'Saw you on the T.V. last night.' Then the crazy lady down the street who used to call the copy on us all the time called me up and said, 'Ian?' I said, 'Yes?' She said, 'I saw you on the television last night.' God, the power of the television.

AND NIGHT FLIGHT PLAYED IT CONSTANTLY.
Endlessly, it seemed like. No wonder people hate me so much. The other thing is that we've never made a fucking nickel off the damn thing. I don't even have a copy of it. It drives me crazy. I do think we really should have been paid for it. Our name is advertised so much with it. You see Social Distortion, Minor Threat and Youth Brigade -

WELL, THAT'S THE WAY THEY BILL IT - AS A TOUR DIARY OF THE THREE BANDS, WHICH ISN'T EVEN REALLY TRUE.
I feel like they really took advantage of us and sold a lot of movies based on our name. It sucks. I don't like being exploited. But, having said that, I do think our clip is great. I think it's really epic. I totally remember that show - it was a great show.

SO WHY WAS IT THEY WOULDN'T LET YOU USE THE P.A.?
Because the guy was freaking out an thought we were being disrespectful. But that never stopped us. We did a show in Sacramento once with Seven Seconds and some other bands. The p.a. guy had a really bad attitude to begin with - a really shitty attitude. He kept saying, 'If you're gonna' use this p.a., this is the way you're gonna' do it.' We'd ask, 'Well, can we run the wires back this way?' 'No, you can not. No, you may not. If you're gonna' use this p.a., this is the way you're gonna' do it.' He kept saying this to us over and over. So, after a while, it was clear to me what I was going to do. I knew exactly what the fuck I was going to do because I don't cotton to that kind of stuff. So after the second or third or whatever band played, right before we went on, I said to him, 'Hey, get your p.a. off the stage.' And he said, 'What?' So I repeated, 'I said, 'get your p.a. off the stage.' He said, 'What are you talking about?' And I said, 'What I'm talking about is this: all fucking day you've been threatening us, telling us you were going to take the p.a. away and we're not going to be able to use it. Well, I'm telling you, we're not going to use it. Fuck you. Get your p.a. off the stage now. Fuck you.' Then he said, 'C'mon man, you gotta' use the p.a.' I said, 'We're not using the p.a. We paid you to come down and work here. We gave you money to work for us. You've treated us like shit all day. I will not disrespect myself by using your p.a. Please remove it from the stage.' He was then begging us to use the p.a. and I finally agreed to let him keep the p.a. speakers on the stage but I made him take all the microphones, all the wires, all the stands, everything off the stage and we did the show without a p.a. People in Sacramento were bummed but my point was - and I tried to articulate this to them - that it was important for people putting on shows, as well as the bands, to remember who's fucking paying who here. It was outrageous to be treated like that. The crowd was bummed but I said, 'Look, I'll sing. I promise. But you've all got to sing too and we'll be able to hear each other.'

I'M SURE THEY GOT OVER IT.
Years later when I played there with Fugazi, some guy said to me, 'Yeah, I saw you here with Minor Threat but it kinda sucked because you wouldn't use the p.a." And I said, 'C'mon man, do you want punk rock or do you want entertainment?'

SO, TELL ME ABOUT THIS FUGAZI MOVE THAT YOU'VE BEEN WORKING ON FOREVER.
We've been working on it for years. We've been filming since the very beginning of the band. We've filmed stuff on Super-8, 16MM, video. We started editing about two years ago, on and off, whenever we get time. We've got it down to a three-hour edit now, we started out with about 70 hours of footage. It's taken a long, long time and this last hour is going to be the most painful to edit, I assure you. It's not really a concert film, it's not a documentary, it's not a tour film - not exactly - it's not exactly an interview thing. It's just a visual record of sorts. We just decided since time requires or will demand that our band tour less - I mean, it's inevitable. Brendan's a dad now, he and his wife had a kid in October, and we're just not going to tour that much anymore and I think that as that part of our exposure starts to dwindle then I think if people want to see us then they're going to have to turn to the T.V. and I think we wanted to cast our vote for our own visual representation since I'm sure there are other video tapes going around, or someone will at some point put something together of their own. I mean, having been represented as Minor Threat by Another State of Mind for so many years, I think it'd be cool to have my own vote as to how Fugazi is represented, the way I'd like to be remembered visually. It's a nice piece of work, I think. We're working with this guy named Jem Cohen who's an old high school friend of mine and a great filmmaker. It's been a really interesting process.

SO HAS FUGAZI COME TO A NEW LEVEL, WITH NOT BEING ABLE TO TOUR AS MUCH? I MEAN, THAT'S ALWAYS BEEN A REAL STRONG POINT FOR YOU GUYS.
We're in a new place but I don't know if it's up or low or lateral. I don't know. It's weird. Brendan has a kid. Joe moved out of the Dischord house and got his own house. It's been a pretty big year for people getting houses and getting settled down. We've been going so strong for ten years, just touring and touring and touring and Brendan said, 'We're taking six-to-eight months off.' I think everyone's taking that time to get their lives sorted out. Guy, who lived in a room in the basement of a group home for nine years, just got a new place. I've been in my house for sixteen years. I moved out of my parents' house right into this damn thing. But I don't know what's going to happen. We've got a new record coming out in April which I'm very excited about.

I HEARD YOU PICKED IT UP AND PUT IT BACK DOWN AND PICKED IT UP AND PUT IT BACK DOWN.
Which is very typical of us. But there was a reason for that this particular time around. Last year, I got really sick and was in the hospital in Australia, and because of my illness, I was grounded from playing for 6 months. Then Brendan announced that he was getting married and having a kid. So I couldn't start playing until May of last year and we couldn't tour past September because Brendan would want to be home when his baby was born so we had a three month window to do work. And we had to get back to Australia and New Zealand to finish that up. So we recorded in April. Brendan and Michelle got married in May. We toured in June and August. Then we went back and recorded and mixed again in November so it just took a long time because of our schedule.

DID YOU WORK WITH ANYONE INTERESTING ON THIS RECORD?
Just us. Same ol', same ol'. It'll be out at the end of April.

I HEARD YOU SAID THAT EVERY TOURING BAND SHOULD HAVE A COPY OF QUEEN'S GREATEST HITS IN THEIR VAN.
Did I say that?

DON'T YOU LIKE QUEEN?
Yeah, I have no shame about that. Well, it's true that on one of our first tours, we went up to do a few shows in Michigan in January of 1988 and we were having a miserable drive through the snow and Guy busted out this thing called Queen I which was just this 90-minute Queen comp. And it saved our lives. People can ridicule that band all they want but they are a band who take one riff and follow it up with one that's even greater, time after time. Their first five albums are brilliant, amazing pieces of work. People always ask us what we listen to, and I don't ever go into to much detail but I know if people heard one of our mixed tapes, they'd probably vomit.

DOES IT BOTHER YOU AT ALL THAT PEOPLE HAVE A CERTAIN IMAGE OF YOU? FOR INSTANCE, THAT THEY MIGHT BE SHOCKED OR EVEN LET DOWN THAT YOU LISTEN TO QUEEN?
Why?! Why would I fucking care what anyone thinks? You asked me if I liked Queen and I said, 'Sure, I like them.' But it's too open-ended. If you were sitting here, I would play for you why I like Queen and then you would agree with me. You would say, 'Yes, Ian, I see why you like Queen.' But since people don't know me and I don't want to defend my tastes, I'm not interested in that. So when I say I like Queen, some people think, 'Oh, they suck, that guy's got bad taste.' Who cares? I don't give a fuck what anybody thinks about it. That's why I generally don't discuss what bands I listen to. The one thing I do not listen to is anything current. To give you some sense of my position, of course I know the name Oasis. I know they're a band and I know they're very popular. But I would not know a single one of their songs. I couldn't name one of their albums. I couldn't hum, whistle, clap, stomp or tap out one of their songs and if I heard one, the only reason I might know it's them is because I understand they're Beatlesque and f I heard something roughly Beatlesque on the radio, I might be inclined to think it's Oasis. But I really don't know them. I don't know Radiohead. I don't know any of these bands. I don't know anything about popular music. I don't care about any of it. That's the truth. Name some bands. Name some Top 40 bands.

NO DOUBT.
I don't know a single one of their songs.

SMASHMOUTH.
The dumbest name I've ever heard - don't know who they are whatsoever. It's for real for me. I don't know anything about it. I never pay attention to popular music. Since Queen. You know what I listen to on the radio here? A lot of hip-hop. I don't know the bands but I know the songs. The radio stations here don't ever say who the bands are. That's kind of cool. I like that. I think people think I'm driving around with a tape or CD of - you name it - some currently popular indie band.

DO YOU THINK IT'S WEIRD THAT PEOPLE THINK YOU SHOULD FIT A CERTAIN MOLD?
No. That's what they listen to so they probably think I would too. Today listened to C-Span radio, which I really like. It's nothing but live feed from press conferences and stuff. I listened to a little bit of the new Halo Benders record which I think is very good. I bought a really weird, obscure Link Wray compilation which I like a lot. And also listened to this dub guy called The Scientist. I listened to a live Johnny Moped tape in my car yesterday. Johnny Moped was a late '70s pub/punk rocker guy. He's really funny. He had this one album where he double-tracked it. You know how your needle goes into a groove, right? They double-tracked it so that when you put your needle down...like, picture the groove, it's a spiral right? Well, think of two grooves next to each other in a spiral. So when you put your needle down, you might go into one groove or you might go into the other groove? Do you understand what I'm getting at? So, when you put your needle down on this record, you're not really sure which track you're going to get - the song or what he referred to as "the mystery track". The mystery track is just him and all these guys riding their mopeds around inside the studio. It's really funny. That's the kind of shit I listen to.

YOU REALIZE PEOPLE THINK OF YOU A CERTAIN WAY, THOUGH, RIGHT? THAT THEY HAVE AN IMAGE OF YOU. THAT PEOPLE DON'T SAY YOUR LAST NAME - IT'S JUST "IAN" AND EVERYONE KNOWS WHO YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT. YOU'RE LIKE SANTA.
I'm the suffering Santa. No, I understand that. Check this out: the people who are really, really in awe of me don't try to relate to me at all. They can't even talk to me. They're too shy. You didn't come up and talk to me in Kansas City - you said "fuck that". Why did you say that?

I DON'T KNOW EXACTLY. HONESTLY, THE MOMENT WAS A LITTLE TOO OVERWHELMING. IT WAS ENOUGH FOR ME THAT DAY THAT I WAS GOING TO BE ABLE TO HEAR YOU SPEAK IN PERSON. I'VE JUST BEEN A FAN FOR SO LONG...
See, the people who do come up aren't going to say, 'Oh my god, you changed my life.' They're not going to say that because the people whose lives I seem to have had an impact on tend to let me have my own space or whatever. They assume that I'd rather not be bothered with them. It's really funny because there are some people I've known for years and years then say, 'You know, I've never told you this but you were my total hero when I was a kid.' I got an e-mail from this woman today who's been working with me for years who told me that a Fugazi show she'd seen changed her life. I had not idea. It kind of freaked me out. You have to understand that I understand the power of music because I am truly affected by music. For me, I am so in love with the power of it - how it affected me, not the power I might have over someone. I think it's so amazing. I totally understand the way people can perceive me and I also think I'm able to keep a perspective on the situation. I know that it's not me personally but it's me representatively of a lot of the people who've invested their own time. So I do feel that I have a responsibility to them on that level. And I also have a responsibility to myself on another level to not get too swept up by it. Because it'll make me crazy. And it's hard sometimes. I get into a bit of a battle about who exactly is driving here? Pull over, who's driving the damn car? This is something I have to come to terms with on occasion because sometimes I can't figure out whether I'm doing things because I want to do them or because someone else expects me to do them. It's tricky. Because sometimes even I'm not sure which is which. Who knows?

YOU'VE BEEN TAGGED ONE OF THE MOST INTERVIEWED PEOPLE IN ZINEDOM - DO YOU THINK THAT'S TRUE?
Probably. I'm accessible. I have a phone number. I like doing fanzine interviews. I've done hundreds of them.

DISCHORD HAS ALWAYS SEEMED COMPLETELY SUPPORTIVE OF ZINES OF ANY CALIBER - YOU WERE ONE OF THE FIRST LABELS TO RESPOND TO OUR PIDDLY LITTLE FIRST ISSUE. CYNTHIA SENT US AN ENCOURAGING POSTCARD.
We put a lot of emphasis on the zine stuff. I think that it's partly because we've chosen not to be involved with the industry and major label stuff. So we're totally reliant on the community to keep us afloat so we know that, in turn, that we have to stay supportive of all of the fanzines and stuff. It's also about spreading it around. We have a big policy on sending out tons and tons of ads. I think we probably advertise in more fanzines than anyone else, too. Our ads are everywhere.

HAVE YOU SEEN THE DISCHORD KNOCK-OFF ADS?
The parody ads? Yeah, I've seen so many of them over the years. It's interesting because people always say, 'God, your ads are so boring.' But really, they're instantly identifiable. They're our ads. I think they're brilliant. The design of the ad partly came from... have you ever been to England? NO. Well, in England, they passed an interesting law about cigarette advertising which basically said that they could advertise cigarettes but they couldn't use anything in the ad which would glamorize the cigarette or suggest that smoking a cigarette would change your lifestyle at all. In other words, you couldn't show a cowboy because that's kind of macho, and you couldn't show some sexy woman. You can't show a lifestyle, you can't show people having fun while smoking. So the people who worked for the British ad companies responded in a really creative manner. What they did was they used really, really abstract images and found ways to insinuate themselves. For instance, there's a cigarette brand there called Silk Cut. So you'd see this huge billboard with just a pair of scissors and a big piece of silk lying on the floor. That's it, besides the cigarette warning at the bottom of the billboard. But it doesn't say anything. There's no text whatsoever and it kind of made me think, and made Jeff think, that sometimes there's other way to put a point across without having to resort to saying, 'Check out this rocking new band!' Because, for me, the best kind of promotional material, advertising, press releases, whatever, are the ones without adjectives. That's the kind of promotional stuff I use. No adjectives. We just say, 'Fugazi is a band. They are from Washington, D.C.'

WELL THAT STUFF GETS SO OLD.
Adjectives? Yeah, because they become worthless.

ANYMORE, I TEND TO JUST READ THE BOLD TYPE IN PEOPLE'S PRESS KITS - THE STUFF THAT SEEMS MORE INFORMATIONAL. I DON'T CARE TO READ ABOUT HOW "CUTTING EDGE" A BAND'S LABEL THINKS THEY ARE.
Me either. Because usually the ones who telling you they are aren't. And while a band might not write that stuff themselves, they have okayed it at some point and that is so gross. Eeyyugh. [** Ian audibly shudders at this point.**] I can't handle it.

DO YOU LIKE TO PRODUCE OTHER BANDS? I'VE BEEN LISTENING TO THE BLUETIP RECORD YOU DID A LOT LATELY.
I really like the way that record came out. When it was released, it didn't get that much of a reaction but I really like it. I don't know, I've produced a lot of records over the years but not so much recently. In the '80s, I must have produced a hundred records. I used to get asked a lot. It's kind of weird. My aesthetic is strange. Right now in music, a lot of people are getting too polished and professional for my tastes. I go with a different kind of tact so I think my aesthetic is not really what people want. I just like to go in with my friends and try to make cool-sounding records but I don't know that much about the technical stuff. And I can't really deal with the perfectionist kind of aesthetic because it's not interesting to me. I did do the Branch Manager record which I sure like a lot, and the Bluetip, but that's about it. I haven't done much else recently which sucks. But there's also not too many bands that I want to do anything with right now either. I think out of the first 50 Dischord records, I must have produced 40 of them myself.

ARE YOU RE-RELEASING THE EARLY DISCHORD STUFF JUST TO GET IT OUT ON CD?
Yep, straight up. Years ago, when we put out our first CD, we knew that we'd have to eventually do it all on CD. Now there's only one band left that we don't have on CD, only one record that we haven't managed to figure out how to release on CD - Fidelity Jones. Every other record, since Dischord 001, we've managed to release on CD, in one form or another. Now, we've only got one more piece to go. Which I'm psyched about. It's all about documentation.

AHA, THE INTERVIEW JUST CAME FULL CIRCLE, I THINK.
The thing is, hopefully, at some point, I hope someone will take an interest in the catalog. But that's one thing we're having a little bit of trouble with. As the catalog gets bigger and bigger, stores don't want to carry it all. So we need to figure out how to get people to do more mailorder. Because no one wants to buy a record that came out seven years ago.

BUT THEY SHOULD.
Yeah, they should, because there's a lot of good records.

EVERYBODY TALKS TO YOU ABUT THE PAST. WHAT DO YOU SEE HAPPENING FOR YOURSELF IN THE FUTURE, FOR DISCHORD AND FOR FUGAZI?
I never think about the future. Honestly, I just can't. This is sort of a stock answer for me but if someone had told me that in 1998 I'd still be doing interviews about this stuff, that people would still be interested in talking to me, that would have been completely inconceivable to me. If someone had told me that four years ago, I wouldn't have believed them. I have no clue what I'll be going through. I turn 36 in April. All I know is I'm going to put the new Fugazi record out and try to finish the goddamn movie but I don't have any sense of where I'm going. In that L.A. punk video thing I was telling you about, there's a series of local news broadcasts from 1980 and 1981 about the L.A. punk scene and they're interviewing all these kids and trying to figure out "what kids are up to" and all this stuff. Every interview, they always asked these kids the same question: "So where do you see yourself in ten years?" Who fucking cares?! What does that have to do with anything? Not to suggest your question is irrelevant but I do think, in that case, it was just these people who were looking at these kids thinking they were just going to grow up and be "normal".

THAT THEY'RE JUST GOING THROUGH A PHASE.
Yeah, that's all it is, a phase. It drives me crazy. People always ask me where I see myself in five years and I don't really know. And, frankly, I'm not worried about it. Which is probably why I don't think about it. I'm quite sure that, with one foot down, my other foot will find the right step. That's the way I've always lived.

FANTASTIC. I'M OUT OF QUESTIONS.
Good. Well, not 'good, she's finally out of fucking questions,' I just mean, 'good for you that you've fulfilled your purpose with this interview.' And if there's anything else you want to know, or that you can think of, just let me know. Feel free to give me a shout anytime. E-mail me. No problem. I am contactable.

YOU ARE AND WE ALL APPRECIATE THAT.
Excellent. **

Update: Dischord Records has since released Instrument, the film which Ian speaks of in the interview. **