Pornography or Self-Expression ?

The participants were:

Mary Jane July		maryjanejuly@yahoo.com
Scarlet		scarlet@brazenhussy.co.uk
Phoenix		golden_phoenix77@hotmail.com
Elaine		elaine.benson@talk21.com

Mary		Although I am a very liberal old woman, I think some of your sex writing fringes on the heterosexual genre. That displeases me. I have lived my whole life trying to get away from that shit--read some theory, girls--bell hooks, Mary Daly, Jill Johnston, Audre Lorde, Jane Rule, Jeanette Winterson, Sarah Schulman, ad infinitum. That all. Love you cunts.
Scarlet		hi mary thanx for your comments. i assume you're talking about the sex in which the characters use strap on dildos and take on top/bottom roles ? (that's all my work - phoenix doesn't go in for it). i am in no way trying to emulate heterosexual roles, and i'm sorry u feel that i do. i came out of the closet in the 1980s in an atmosphere that said it was wrong to have any sort of vaginal sex whatsoever. it saddened me to realise that this was really the lesbian community oppressing itself, ie not allowing us to enjoy our bodies incase we did something that straight people did. i also realised that experimentation and self expression could be extremely liberating. that's why my attitude is now "anything (consensual) goes !" as for reading my theory, i've been reading up on class, "race", sex, sexism and homophobia since my teens. i'm not a feminist, but i do want a liberated socialist world. that's what i'm fighting for on a day to day basis. i don't want a world that says i can't fuck ! please reply cos this is interesting. respect scarlet xxxxxxx
Phoenix		mary, quite frankly i find it sad that as a self-proclaimed 'liberal' woman you have such limited views about sex. the gay/lesbian community in general have been told by the hetero community what is and isn't proper sexual behaviour for far too long.. hence the sexual stereotypes of gay men hanging around in public toilets preying on young boys, and lesbians all being 'diesel-dyke carpet-munchers'. the fact is that different couples - straight, gay or lesbian - will continue to have sex in whatever w y is pleasing to them...and provided it is consensual what should it really matter to anyone else? scarlet and i are proud to have Dyke Write as an avenue to post our writings as well as those of other lesbian and bisexual women, and we will continue to do this for as long as is possible. i wish you the best for whatever aspirations you may have regards phoenix
Elaine		all this fuss about sex. bloody hell. ok for what it's worth here's my input: my personal and sexual politics are very important to me, and i have arrived at my opinions the hard way. through being sexually abused and spending years in therapy and reading theories or 'how it should be' until my eyes and my head hurt. i have been th ough stages of hating sex and thinking it disgusting, but now cos of my hard work and determination, and with the love and trust i have built up with my girlfriend, i find i really like it. i like to experiment sexually to find out out what i like or don' like. because of abuse my capacity to develop a healthy interest in sex and for it to develop in an open and trusting way - was took away from me. so now i go at my own pace. pulling back when i need to, pushing my boundaries when i want to. for so much f my life - and i'm 42 now, my body hasn't belonged to me. it does now and i intend to do what i want to with it. no-one will force me into anything i don't want to do - and anything i get involved with is consensual. i have a vagina and i like to use it that's my choice. btw - when heterosexuals have cunnnilingus do we say they are emulating lesbian sex ? how can a sex act 'belong' to any one group of people? for me the personal is political and i am a feminist. i know a lot about sexual politics and support most of the theories - but i'm not going to stop my girlfriend penetrating me because someone tells me it's not politically correct. I want it and I enjoy it. I don't force her to do it to me against her will either. we both want it. it's consensual. elaine
Mary		Hello all-- Peace and love. Thank-you for your comments on my bad message. You all were a bit mistaken about my comment. I said "some of your sex WRITING fringes on the heterosexual GENRE." I was speaking about the writing. I was in no way making a comment about what is and isn't proper sexual behavior. I too believe that anything consensual is A-OK. Scarlet, I didn't say you were emulating het roles--I only meant some of the writing "fringed" on the het style of "porn" writing I have seen in some so-called male-oriented "pornographic" periodicals (not that I make it a habit to read those). I agree with Elaine. I like to use my vagina too (but prefer to call it a cunt--let's reclaim the word). Do you know the origin of the word vagina? Let me tell you--sheath to put sword in--I am very particular about origins of words and would prefer to use others if they make more sense. Yes, the personal IS the political. But no one seems to care about that much these days. You see, I just feel that LOVE (and sex) are SACRED between women. I don't want to see it trivialized or degraded in any way. It saddens me too that the lesbian community still "oppresses" itself in more ways than sexual matters. That aside, this is probably the best dyke-writing site I have come across on the WWW. You both have beautiful and interesting works as well as your guests. Keep it up!! MJJ
Scarlet		okay mary if u want to pretend this is just about literary styles, then explain to me how my writing reminds u of pornography. i haven't actually read any but i believe it to be oppressive and exploitative, male-led, and designed to boost the male ego. my writing on the other hand, is about pushing the boundaries, exploring taboo areas of sexuality, and having a bit of what u want. in my stories, it is not a man who is the "protagonist" or most active sexual partner, it is a woman. and the stories are not written from the protagonist's point of view, but are written from the position of the receiver. this alone must mark a massive difference between me and pornographers. i certainly don't believe that most lesbian sex and relationships are about a dominant partner and a passive partner, but on this occasion i chose not to write about the norm. am i being criticised for writing about a subject that isn't the mainstream ?< > anyway, i don't really believe this debate is about writing style, and if it is, then i want some evidence. when mary recommended that i did some reading, she recommended books on feminism, not "teach your self how to write short stories" or books of tha nature. the fact is, that if i refuse to be a touchy feely soft focus sister of the woodland, then other lesbians think i'm trying to copy heterosexual relationships. i'm not doing that at all. but i refuse to be held back from being happy and living my life ho i want, just because it's not about being feminine or whatever. the whole fucking world tells me i should be straight, i shouldn't love or fuck women, i shouldn't cut my hair short or fight for what i believe in. i'm not going to listen to them, so why should i listen when others tell me i shouldn't enjoy sex toys, s , or role playing ? and why the fuck shouldn't i write about it ? there's lots of it going on, but in my opinion, not enough being said or written about it. i refuse to censor myself, either by deed or by writing. i'm not trying to convert anyone to the way i feel or see the world, but i am going to express myself, regardless of whether or not it upsets people. i'm sick of the rules, i'm sick of moralising dykes, and i'm not going to give up the lovely relationshi and fabulous sex i'm having ! i'm bloody enraged now ! scarlet xxxxxxx
Phoenix		mary in a way i can see where your latest comments are coming from...personally i do not feel scarlet's writing is in any way related to the sexual acts written about in men's magazines...i admit that her writing is erotic...however i don't believe it is writt n in an attempt to purposefully arouse the reader (as is the case with the writing you speak of) - perhaps this is the key difference between erotica and pornography? the whole premise of dyke write is to provide an avenue for lesbian and bisexual women to have their writing posted on the net...whether or not that writing contains eroticism is completely irrelevant...the writings posted here are targetted directly towa ds the lesbian/bisexual audience and really shouldn't be compared to those targetted at others. quite frankly it irritates me that you say it saddens you that the lesbian community oppresses itself and yet it seems you are also wanting writing suppressed because it's subject matter differ's from your preferences - a bit hypocritical don't you think? p>eroticism/smut/porn has been gasped at and censored for far too long...let's face it...nobody has 'vanilla' sex all the time, so why only be allowed to write about that?? let's break open a few of the taboos and build some fucking bridges for christ's ake!! happy fucking - however you choose to do it!! phoenix
Elaine		Hi everyone I've read the comments about the writing on this site - and i have to disagree with what Mary says about the style. I don't think it is similar to het porn writing. i've read quite a bit of that too, in my time, and it is usually very exploitative towards the women involved. The women tend to be mere objects who are simply there to be used for the men to get sexual satisfaction, and whose bodies are described intimately. there is nothing like that in Scarlets writing. In her writing both people are involve and get satisfaction. I feel her writing is more about pushing boundaries and daring to dare - especially given the sexual oppression that seems to exist in some quarters of the lesbian community. hell we know that negotiating your own sexuality can be a very tricky, precarious and sometimes scarey business, but we can at least allow those that have sorted this out for themselves, the opportunity to enjoy and express it. No-one is saying that every lesbian should be like this - take up these sexual roles. if your preference is for vanilla sex only - and you're happy with that - great. But allow others the same freedom. btw - i also prefer the word cunt and use it on a regular basis - but i wanted to be specific about what area i was talking about. For some the word cunt means the whole of the female genitalia (what a fucking word!! couldn't think of another!) - and I w s discussing penetration and so wanted to ensure that people knew that. interesting debate anyhow. Elaine
Mary		Okay. I was not going to reply, because I think you clearly misunderstood an innocent statement. I said "some" of the writing and I will give examples. "Home Coming," was probably what made me say what I did. That type of "take me as you will and if you can" is the stuff I've seen in het writing. Sometimes the woman gives in to pleasure in those writings too. What Elaine said about the women tending to be mere objects who are simply there to be used for the men to get sexual satisfaction is mirrored in "HomeComing." Yes, it all works out in the end but some of the phrases are not what I would call "consensual." i.e.--furious as hell/didn't matter to them/didn't listen to my protests/forcing me to have sex with her/I tried to convince her to stop/again I tried to resist/cold towards me then/I never knew that she wouldn't hurt me/Daddy. Honies, I have pushed more boundaries than you can imagine. I am not trying to oppress you and don't care what you do sexually. You seem to think I want to censor your writing. Oh no. I celebrate it. I could just as easily say you are oppressing/suppressing me for voicing an opinion. Yeah, let's build some fucking bridges. And don't talk to me about "vanilla sex" anymore. The greatest love of my life wrote this after I called her a pussy. . . I am just a big PUSSY A fuck me anytime you can PUSSY A gnaw my tits while you bang me PUSSY A take me from behind with my nipples draggin' the ground PUSSY A wildcat with its fur on fire PUSSY A screamin,' comin,' hollerin' ass in the air PUSSY PUSSY PUSSY PUSSY Here Pussy. . . mj
Scarlet		mary perhaps the version of Home Coming that u read did not include the last paragraph, which reads: At the door, we kissed again, and then they were gone. I feel exhausted and wet now, but I wouldn't change a thing. I wonder when they'll come round again ? this clearly demonstrates that the sex was consensual, wanted, and longed for. Home Coming is about expressing and exploring a fantasy many women (gay or str8) have about pretending to have sex against their will. the key word here is pretending - and millions of sexually active people around the world like to pretend things when they're having sex. they just don't write about it. so i guess what makes me different is that i do write about it. i think it's important to stress that there is a lot of difference between consensual and non-consensual sex. non-consensual sex can include violence, or there can be no physical violence at all. non-consensual sex can be perpetrated by strangers or by people u know. non-consensual sex can be vanilla, sm, or something else besides. but what makes it different from consenting sex is that one of the participants does not want it to happen. Home Coming, regardless of the bondage, the sex toys, the occasional physical pain, the word daddy and the pretending to not want it, is about playing out a scenario that all three participants enjoy and consent to. i think the criticisms levelled at Home Coming are about dislike and misunderstanding of sm, and refusal to believe in genuine consent. i have had a lot of vanilla (non sm) sex with women that i didn't really want to have, i did it to avoid an argument, to boost my partner's ego, to cover up my changing feelings, or just 'cos it was too difficult to say no. but i have never been handcuffed, whipped or slapped without explicitly indicating to my lover that that was what i wanted. so as far as i am concerned, bdsm requires a more explicit and more honest form of consent than can be said for vanilla. so who's hurting who in the lesbian community ? okay, one last thing. i'm sorry that we disagree mary, but i'm still glad u initiated this discussion. thanks. scarlet xxxxxxx

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