By Hippie3 (Hippie3) on Monday, April 30, 2001 - 01:02 pm: Edit

Topic: muriatic acid extraction
Sync
Member posted 22 September 2000 11:46 PM
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In a dream, some unknown and un-nammed person extracted 18.5 grams MHRB to liquid form. This time the water was acidified to ph4.5 with diluted muriatic acid instead of an organic agent (6 drops). Filtration was done with crude coffee filter and refrigeration decantation method. The resulting ¼ cup of liquid was thin and watery, semi-transparent, with a less offensive taste. It may have been possible to reduce the volume even further, to perhaps a few tablespoons. The lack of organic acidifying agents seemed to have permitted the lack of viscosity. The brew was so thin that there was a concern that the extraction had not occurred. This fear turned out to be very unfounded. It seems that without the other organic compounds competing in the water for suspension, the extraction process was at least 30% more efficient.

The experience was far more powerful than expected, and had an electric and very “clean” quality about it. Drank the brew at about 7:30, and by 8:30 was already astonished at the depth and power of the experience. Visuals were persistent and spectacular throughout much of the experience. This one was everything an ayahuasca experience is said it should be.


meteor
Curandero posted 23 September 2000 06:34 AM
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sync,
Tell us more on this. I have entertained a dream with HCl as the extracting agent, but resisted due to the fear of not neutralizing it.

How many drops of muriatic acid per/cup did it take?

And more importantly did you neutralize it afterwards.

What is the composition of muriatic anyway, anything harmful in it.

I know that there is some HCl in the stomach-- would that not be a better alternative?



meteor
Curandero posted 24 September 2000 12:55 AM
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I did some tests today and found out more about Muriatic acid, as well as some of the others.
Muriatic Acid (by "Klean Strip") is 31.45% Hydrochloric acid by weight. Hydrochloric acid is not harmful in the small amounts needed to bring distilled water down to a pH of 4.5 to 5. I think that acid in the stomach is stronger than this.

With one cup of distilled water about 10 drops of Muriatic acid brought about a pH of about 5.

I used a pH meter like the ones you get at Garden shops. For best results you must wipe the tip with your fingers before and after using it each time it. Otherwise if you leave it in the solution the needle will slowly go toward the alkaline mark and you won't get the best reading, or accurate results.

I used the meter to test other acids used to make brews. Pure white vinegar (5%) tested at a pH of 5. So if 4.5 to 5 pH is what is needed for an effective brew, then one would have to use it straight out of the bottle. This would be horrendous smelling as it boiled, and with all the residual acetates left it probably would not taste very good. (I have dreamt with dilute vinegar brews and they do work, but I now know that it would work better straight).

Lemon juice concentrate in a bottle (Safeway) tested at about 5.5 straight.

So again this would have to be used straight to make an effective brew if the desired pH is 5 or less. (Straight lemon juice hausca--
YUCK !)

So, my pH tests show that 250 ml of distilled water and about 10-12 drops of Muriatic acid will give the solution a pH of about 4.5 to 5 which is perfect for brewing extractions.

Tasting the very diluted Muriatic acid water revealed a slight acid taste, but it is not anywhere near as bad as say, lemon juice or white vinegar.

So, I think that Sync is right, the resulting brews made with Muriatic acid will be stonger and better to stomach.

Is there anyone out there willing to do similar tests to confirm or disprove my resluts?


[This message has been edited by meteor (edited 24 September 2000).]


don
Member posted 24 September 2000 05:20 AM
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This may seem like a stupid question but here goes. What is the diferance of what you use to bring down the ph, as long as you bring down the ph, myself I use ascorbic acid powder, it takes about 1.5 teaspoons to bring 40 oz of distilled water down to about ph 4. Why would it make any diferance what type of acid I used to do this (unless it was lysergic) Just curious, the thought of having a bottle of muriatic or hydrochloric acid sitting in the pantry just doesn't appeal to me at all.

meteor
Curandero posted 24 September 2000 07:42 AM
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Well, that is a good question. I think that it is not just the pH that counts, but the chemical activity of the acids in question. The big advantage to Hydrochloric is that it is a simple molecule compared to vitamin C. Also HCl is much more active in extraction of alkaloids than organic acids. Another advantage is that as you boil it down HCl boils out of the solution so the acidity will decrease, whereas vitamin C (ascorbic acid) will not.
What you put in stays in.

It is as Sync observed using HCl is "a clearner" approach to alkaloid extraction.

And the best advantage is that HCl is already in the stomach, and is an itegral component of digestion. Being that it is very powerful, not much of it is needed to achieve what a couple of teaspoons of ascorbic acid would do. And unlike ascorbic, Hydrochloric acid it is not irritating to the stomach and intestines as in the large amounts of ascorbic needed to acidify water for brew extractions. (1000 to 5000 milligrams).


[This message has been edited by meteor (edited 24 September 2000).]


TIHKAL
Member posted 24 September 2000 09:26 AM
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i believe there is also something about negative and positively charged molecules right ? in their response to acids of like nature. i may be way wrong though also what is this acid and where can you get it?
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WE ARE ONE...


Xenonpill
Member posted 24 September 2000 05:22 PM
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HCL is considered a "strong" acid, and so it gives up protons quite easialy. What is left after pH is lowered is but a chloride ion, very small compared to an acorbate ion... easier on the stomach and rest of the body in general. Don't anybody freak out just yet, but I recently heard, (not read) that too much vitamin C (5000mg a day) can contribute to osteoperosis... but don't quote me on that.
"everything is going extremely well"
-Xenonpill


mriko
Member posted 24 September 2000 05:32 PM
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5 gr. of vitamin C !!!!
Is there any people who use such amounts when they about brewing ?!
Actually, I only use a few drops of lemon lime and it works perfectly !

Irie !

M'riko


meteor
Curandero posted 24 September 2000 06:08 PM
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The muriatic acid that I obtained for my tests was purchased at "HomeCo" under the brand "Klean Strip" Muriatic acid is simply a solution of HCl at 20 deg Baume Hydrochloric acid 31.45% by weight.
There are no other additives to it such as soaps or strippng agents. Straight muriatic acid is used for concrete and paint stripping and when you buy it make sure that what you get has no other agents in it. Any hardware store or janitorial supply should have muriatic acid--which is nothing more than a diluted conentration of Hydrochloric.

With hard tap water (Flagstaff) I had to use 20 drops per 250 ml to get 5 pH. With distilled it was 12 drops.

And I agree with the above discussion concerning the organic acids versus HCl. HCl is much more active in extraction than the others, and with regards to ascorbic causing bone degneration this has been comfirmed. I think that I read somewhere that as little as 1000 mg per day can be harmful in this regard, so calcium supplements are recommended for persons inclined to take large amounts of Vitamin C.

(Too much of any good thing is bad for you, I suppose).

But again, with regards to HCl (in the form of muriatic acid), HCl is used by labs to extract alkaloids from plants. It is much, much more effective than any of the others, and in concentrations needed to get water to a pH of 4.5 to 5 perfectly safe, and not nearly as hard on the stomach (HCl is produced in the stomach anyway) or as bad tasting.

And if one were inclined to de-acidify all that would be needed to do this is a dash of baking soda in the brew. This is probably a good idea as HCl, or any strong acid is bad on the teeth. (But who would ever dream of sloshing the brew around in the mouth ;-> )


[This message has been edited by meteor (edited 24 September 2000).]


don
Member posted 24 September 2000 07:37 PM
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WOW!!! Thank you guys. Its amazing what one can learn on here. From all I have read above, it makes perfect sense now to use hydrochloric rather than ascorbic. I always just thought that pH was pH, when I think about it pH is based upon the # of hydrogen ions in solution(or something like that). So why not use the cleanest source of lowering the pH one can. Thanks again

waterhare
Member posted 25 September 2000 12:22 AM
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Though commercial "muriatic acid" may not have ingredients on the label there are probably some other compounds left from the production process. Because of the application it is not necessary for the manufacturer to purify out the chlorine as it would for laboratory or kitchen use.
Chlorine would make the liquid yellow rather than colourless. Chlorine could react with all sorts of things to make nasties or destroy desirables.

Heavy metals (mercury, lead, arsenic etc) may also be present, which might be more significant in affecting health.


meteor
Curandero posted 25 September 2000 01:18 AM
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Waterhare,
Your concerns are real, however, the muriatic acid that I obtained is also used to chlorinate and adjust the pH in swimming pools. So I would imagine that there must be some standards of purity involved in its production. As for chlorine, hydrochloric acid is slightly yellowish due to its chlorine content as is muriatic, a specific concentration of HCl.

I would not discredit chlorine in extractions, as from what I have read the best solvents for extraction are the chlorinated ones.

Also, notice that many of the actives that we are interested in are best when they are a hydrochloride salt, and though I am not a chemist, it believe that these are made using HCl in the extraction-manufacturing process. I would therefore think that there is not much chance for the actives to be harmed by HCl in the extraction process.

But getting back to the point:

For all intents and purposes muriatic acid is the same chemically as hydrochloric acid.

For the purposes at hand the best choice would be reagent grade muriatic or hydrochloric, but if these are not obtainable a good commercial cleaning and "swimming pool" grade would work just as well, be much less expensive, and be just as safe.

But to address 'Waterhares' concerns, make sure that it says in the directions on the bottle that one of its uses is to adjust the pH in swimming pools as there are Federal standards regulating the purity of any chemicals that are added to water that comes into contact with humans, and animals.

The EPA also has strict environmental guidelines involving the purity of water and water additives.

Uncle Sam is not all that bad after all ;->


[This message has been edited by meteor (edited 25 September 2000).]


Sync
Member posted 25 September 2000 03:17 AM
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Meteor, thank you for running with this topic. Everthing you have said is correct. The muriatic acid used was for pool use, and it's purity and safty is regulated. It is also very cheep. A few dollars gets you two gallons of 31% muriatic acid solution, this is literally more than enough to last a lifetime for these purposes.

waterhare
Member posted 25 September 2000 10:54 PM
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The properties of chlorinated organics (such as dichloromethane) and hydrochloric acid should not be confused with those of elemental chlorine. Cl2 is highly reactive and may produce all sorts of nasties in reactions with herbs.
It was used as a war gas in World War One but the effects some people get from chlorinated pools are not due to the added chlorine but to its reaction products with human effluvia in solution in the pool.

Muriatic acid is simply a very old name for hydrochloric acid that hardware stores still use. If it is yellow I would advise against using it. Reagent grade hydrochloric acid is perfectly colourless.

I am not a chemist but I do play one on TV.


remoohrs
Member posted 25 September 2000 10:57 PM
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I apologize for my ignorance but what is the refrigeration decantation method? wondering.....

meteor
Curandero posted 26 September 2000 07:30 AM
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Waterhare,
I have seen large bottles of reagent grade HCl and the liquid is slightly yellow, very very pale yellow, as is the "muriatic" that I bought. I really do not think that they add Cl2 to it. And when it is titrated down to 10- to 20 drops per 250 ml, that is hardly enough to warrant much concern.

I think, however, that the Muriatic Acid sold at "Home Depot" is as pure as one could get, and since the HCl is in far greater proportion to any Cl2 in the solution there is little chance of making "nasties" with it.

Not any more than there would be using chlorinated tap water to soak a tea.

I plan to be dreaming soon with this HCl (muriatic acidified water) and I have dreamt with quite a few variations, citric, ascorbic, vinegar, straight water, tap water, and alcohol extractions.

The proof is in the quality of the dream and I think that Sync is on the right track.



Sync
Member posted 26 September 2000 05:26 PM
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Some people prefer not to drink the sediment as a way of reducing the possibility of nausea. Kept in a refrigerator overnight the finest particulate will settle to the bottom of the liquid. The liquid is then poured off (decanted.) Some of the active ingredients are lost in this method.

remoohrs
Member posted 27 September 2000 03:11 AM
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thought that's what you meant, but it seemed too simple. The point of the refrigerator is to prevent decomposition of alkaloids?


Sync
Member posted 27 September 2000 05:30 AM
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No. Lowering the temp decreeses the kenetic energy in the liquid and lessens its ability to keep particulate matter in suspension. The silt drops to the bottom when the liquid gets cold.

meteor
Curandero posted 27 September 2000 04:59 PM
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One thing that might happen is that by lowering the temperature is that some of the acitives in solution might come out of solution go down with the silt.
(I always keep the silt, dry it then use it in the next brew)



Sync
Member posted 27 September 2000 06:55 PM
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The next logical step in the use of muriatic acid extraction is to apply it to the extraction of harmaline and harmine from rue seeds. Much of the body load from rue seems to come from the shell and fiber materials. Using a rue concentrate mitigates much of this effect, muriatic acid extraction and good filtration would allow removal of just about everything but the beta-carbs. It would also be far simpler than the vinegar/salt extraction currently in use. The remaining question would be how to convert the harmaline to harmine. I found a reference that stated by gentle oxidation, harmaline is converted into harmine, anyone know how to do this? The reason is that harmine is gentler on the body than harmaline, one of the reasons dcmd and others tout using cappi over rue. Harmine is also shorter acting than harmaline, which means you have to take much more of it over time for multiple doses, whereas harmaline can be effective for 5-6 hours. Harmine sources such as cappi are also relatively expensive and can be more difficult to brew. Harmaline in rue is very cheep, but as noted not as pleasant. If there is an easy way of converting harmaline to harmine, rue then becomes a cheep and abundant source of the superior beta-carb.

stephen
Member posted 27 September 2000 09:16 PM
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It is my opinion that anyone who would intend to chemically modify the alkaloid content of the plant would probably simply be better off purchasing pure chemical Harmine from a research chemical supplier.
Rue contains many more alkaloids than bCs, and as far as I know, the only way to seperate the bCs from these is to use gas chromotography. Besides, one of the reasons that Caapi may be particularly desireable is its tetra-hydro-harmine content. Also consider the metaphysical aspects. Two different plants with identical alkaloid contents may have different character simply due to their manifestations in the spirit dimensions. "The brew is more than the sum of its parts"

It's true that Rue is extremely cheap, but I don't think Caapi is all that expensive either. In fact, I think the Caapi is typically still less expensive than the ad-mixture plants.



Xenonpill
Member posted 28 September 2000 05:48 AM
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HArdware store "pool-grade" HCL is not "Food-grade" or anything resembling it. Regluations concerning what can be put in food and what can be put in pools are very different.... for ecample, you aren't alowed to put sodium bromide tablets milkshakes, or "pool shock" in salad dressing. This is just a reminder to be carefull, and possibly to make some effort to get your hands on some pure HCL... there are many ways to get this. Hardware store hcl is not necesarril refined to be used in concentrations that you are using... ie pH 4. The allowable limits for heavy metals in pools might not coreespond safely here... also, HCL isn't really supposed to be yellow, if it is, then it is not pure HCL! But over all I'd sya this is a great idea, very helpfull experimentation indeed... great reduction of stomach load i'd say/
Xenonpill

PS:
Anyone has any luck with R. Manske's kitchen rue alkaloid extraction method? it looks so easy and yeilding a pure product... anyone tried it?



meteor
Curandero posted 28 September 2000 06:54 AM
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I beg to differ with you on several points.
1) The "muriatic acid" that I used is pool grade and virtually colorless. Even reagent grade HCl has a very slight yellow cast.

2) The amounts of "heavy metals" in any pool additives would have to be declared as it comes into contact with human skin.

3)Because it is added water that will eventually be flushed back into the water supply again requires that such amounts be stated, as the EPA has very, very stringent standards as to what kinds of chemicals can or cannot be added to water.

(Think about it. A begillion pools in the LA area, or Pheonix all using "heavy metal leden muriatic acid"-- where do you think that water goes when those pools get flushed? And where does all the heavy metal go? You can bet that the EPA has regulations on pool additives, and I know that they have as I have seen such regulations somewhere.)

The "muriatic acid" in question comes in conentrations of 31.45% acid to water. And after pouring it into a glass (outside as it white fumes) it is virtually colorless with a very, very pale yellow cast-- Which is exactly what reagent grade HCl looks like.

Ten drops to 250 milliliters of water hardly represents a concentration that is in any way harmful as the stomach acids (mostly HCl) are stronger than this.

And as for the herbs in question, has any tests been done on these as to "heavy metals" (and who knows what) that they might contain? The third world countries that they come from are not so strict with envronmental controls as the good old U S of A.

I would wager to say that the chances of contamination of our herbs from our polluted environment are a greater threat than a few drops of "pool grade" muriatic (which is probably made by the same chemical companies that make the more expensive reagent grade).

(Of course none of this really matters as none of this is to be consumed anyway)


[This message has been edited by meteor (edited 28 September 2000).]


gnrm23
Member posted 28 September 2000 05:45 PM
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x-pill...
yes the manske kitchen tech is feasible... ah the smell of hot vinegar... 3 hot vinegar simmerings, added together & concentrated, canning salt added warm, the lot then chilled, crystalline mush ppt can be filtered thru coffee filter & dried... crystals can be redissolved & process repeated for added purity, but the initial precipitated is probably like 70% harmine HCl, 25% harmaline HCl, 5% "other" (other alkaloids, sodium chloride, tannins, acetates, whatever...)
and a freebase can be prepared by addition of ammonia solution to warm water solution of the HCl salts, but seperateing the harmine base from the harmaline base requires microscopic examination of the structure of the resulting crystals as the ammonia solution is slowly added... not worth the hassle inho, but could be an excellent exercise in patience ...
as to the oxidation of harmaline to harmine... H2O2 or potassium permanganate (?)
purchasing the harmala alkaloids just seems sooo expensive ("legit" suppliers maybe $US 10-20, fine chemical suppliers perhaps more, graymarket suppliers about $75/gram... ouch...) now, for easy extraction and seperation of THH from harmine (& harmaline, harmalol, etc...) or conversion techs, i dunno... i imagine the info is out there somewheres...

waterhare
Member posted 28 September 2000 08:22 PM
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The proof is not in the quality of the dream but in your bladder cancer in future years. If your tap water has a slight yellow cast from chlorine you should be very worried.
All that waste pool water shoves along the heavy metal laden sewage in the sewers.


meteor
Curandero posted 29 September 2000 04:26 AM
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Waterhare wrote:
"All that waste pool water shoves along the heavy metal laden sewage in the sewers"

And I counter that with the knowledge that pool additives (muriatic acid) or simple (HCl) is pure and without "heavy metals."

Again, the EPA has tight controls as to what can or cannot be added to our water supply. And as for the sewers-- where do you think that water goes anyway? It gets processed and then returned to the water table (along with all those "heavy metals" that you are speculating about). If the heavy metals are there they do not come into the water supply by muriatic additives to pool water but by other sources. Be it pipes, motor oil dumped down sewers, and a myriad of other sources. Again, the EPA has very strict standards and backs them up with waste disposal laws. (Dump a 55 gal. drum of some hazardous material and if they find out-- watch and see what happens).

And the standards are getting ever more stringent.

I wager to say that there are more "heavy metals" coming out of your faucet than there is in the muriatic acid in question.

I doubt that there is anything to worry about.

And as for the highly active HCl in the brew it will be mostly neutralized once the brewing is over. Any excess can then be taken care of by the addition of bi-carb.


[This message has been edited by meteor (edited 29 September 2000).]


Sync
Member posted 29 September 2000 05:56 AM
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Found an entry for harmine in TIHKAL that seems to indicate harmaline can be converted to harmine by suspending it in alcohol, adding nitric acid and heat in careful small proportions, and allowing the reaction to perform the oxidation needed. The pH is then adjusted with hcl solution and the whole thing dried to a powder. If a muriatic acid extraction, or even a methanol extraction, were done on rue seeds, vacuum filtered, then used as the base material, the naturally occurring harmine would survive, and most of the rue harmiline would get converted. Results: cheep harmine. How cheep? There’s a place on the web called “RED TURKEY” that sells 1000 grams of rue seeds for 50 bucks. Match that with the cost of cappi. I’m not saying it’s a better way to brew, the objections of the naturalists are well considered, but if someone really wanted to become an ayahuasquero it seems to me you have to drink the tea at least weekly, preferably more often. If the plants don’t grow in your back yard, it’s prohibitively expensive. If there’s a compromise that allows someone committed to this path to continue, it’s worth a try.
[This message has been edited by Sync (edited 29 September 2000).]


Lyden
Member posted 29 September 2000 05:14 PM
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The problem with rue is that is has no thydro harmine.

meteor
Curandero posted 30 September 2000 03:58 AM
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Very interesting Sync.
Are you saying that a simple extraction with HCl on harmala seeds will make the conversion to harmine?

As for missing out on the good things in cappi, I have found that mixing 50-50 (dosage) works very nicely.

That is 2.5 grams Peganum harmala and 15 grams cappi.

As for HCl extraction of harmala-- tell us more.

I dream twice a month, and have for over 2 years now. Everyone in my family is on anti-depressants-- but not me.

I am doing a lot better than they. A simple means of extraction is a must, and I think that your HCl method is a big step in the right direction.

BTW-- I did some research and discovered that the stomach produces HCl in concentrations high enough to be at a pH of 1.

And that is strong enough to be straight muriatic acid at 31.5 %.

After eating, the acid pH rises to about 4 with the buffering action of food.

It would be interesting to do pH tests on the brew at the start and just before the dream.

I will bet that with the buffering action of the herbs as the alkaloids are converted to salts, that the acidity drops (pH rises) substantially.

I also think that having xxxHCl instead of xxxacetate, or xxxcitrate compounds is much more reactive and effective than the latter ones. This would strongly support acidifying with HCl (muriatic or reagent) than with citric acid, vinegar or other organic acids.


[This message has been edited by meteor (edited 30 September 2000).]


waterhare
Member posted 30 September 2000 12:41 PM
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Sync, HCl or methanol extraction will also extract the quinazolines like peganine and vasicine. Nitric acid could do something strange to them which may not be nice. The vinegar/salt extraction is the best way to prepare pure harmala alkaloid. $50 a kilo is a bit pricey, should be more like 10.
You still haven't caught the difference between chlorine and hydrochloric acid have you, meteor? And I assume you meant say the pH would rise substantially rather than drop?

Harmala does have a trace of tetrahydroharmine.


meteor
Curandero posted 30 September 2000 05:30 PM
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Yes, I meant to say that the acididty drops (0-14 pH scale: with distilled water at 7, acid below that and base above).
Also, we are not talking about chlorine as in Cl2 (also present in chlorinated tap water) but HCl as in hydrochloric or "muriatic acid"

The difference is quite obvious. In "HCl" chlorine is bonded to hydrogen, and in "Cl2" gas (like the poison gas used in WW1) two elemental chlorines are bonded together.

Cl2 is not chemically anything like HCl.

Nor are we talking extractions with bleach (sodium hypochlorite: also added to pools for chlorination, and when added to certain chemicals can produce chlorine gas).


[This message has been edited by meteor (edited 30 September 2000).]


Sync
Member posted 30 September 2000 08:53 PM
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Waterhare, I haven’t tried the rue seed extraction with muriatic acid yet, just thought of it and am going to need a bulk supply to experiment with. $10 a kilo? Where? As far as the theory of extraction goes, muriatic acid vs. vinegar and salt, I was trying to simplify the process. Seems to me that if the beta-carbs are extracted when vine or rue is cooked with other plants, that it should work as well with them alone. It would be just a matter of dehydration to a powder after boiling and filtration. I think, but am not sure, that the salt would only be needed to separate the beta-carbs from all of the organic stuff due to the vinegar. No vinegar, no salt. As far as the effect of nitric acid on quinazolines, I don’t yet know what oxidation does to them, it was a very astute question. I will attempt to find out over the next few weeks if I can.

vox ovox
Member posted 30 September 2000 09:47 PM
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this is a fantastic topic,i am a newbie,and find this idea promising. i have dreamt a couple times now, but with limited depth,due in part to what i believe is a)me still being in the process of refining my imaginary recipe&idealtemperatures for imagined extraction& b) my inability to hold down the imagined brew long enough for absorbtion.i believe the lemon juice is contributing an unecessary roughness& bitter taste,to what allready is without question the most intense tasting medicine i have ever dreamt of consuming. i think this will simplify things considerably,in terms of extraction,taste&and holding down the imagined brew. the future looks promising indeed.......... greetings from me and bless all who contribute info and postivity to this sight

meteor
Curandero posted 30 September 2000 10:42 PM
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Sync,
I am soon to embark of a dream this Sunday with Mimosa hostilis, and Peganum harmala, both dream brewed with muriatic acid with a rough pH of 5.

(15 drops of muriatic to every 250 ml of distilled water used in the brewing)

In my studies of HCl I found that it does not dissolve fats, waxes or oils.

This may account for the "thinness" of the brew that you mentioned at the start of this thread, and also the "clean quality" of the experience.

I know that lemon and lime juices have oils in them, and there might also be certain compounds, (nasties) that could be dissolved into the brew using these. I am not sure about vinegar whether it can dissolve fats, waxes or oils.

What I do know for sure is that HCl will leave all the waxes, oils, and fats, and the compounds they contain behind. And when you consider that the prime compounds that make Ayahausca what it is are all acid soluble the HCl approach should work better than all of the other recipies containing organic acids.

I think one should strive for a pH of 5 during the brewing process. Check the brew for excess acid after the brewing is done, then neutralize to a pH of 7 with bi-carb if necessary.

(This may not even be necessary as the herbs should buffer the acid as the alkaloids are extracted and converted to salts. And if this is the case the brew should taste distinctly salty rather than acidic. And if it tastes salty, and you don't have a pH tester, don't bother with the bi-carb. But if in doubt a level half teaspoon of it will not hurt)

*Of course all of this is mere speculation, as this is only a dream about a dream*


[This message has been edited by meteor (edited 30 September 2000).]


Sync
Member posted 30 September 2000 11:07 PM
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Looks like treatment of the treatment the prime quinazoline, vasicine, with nitric acid would yeild the n-oxides vasicinone, deoxyvasicine, and maiontone. These are bronchial dialators. which means the results would be non-toxic, but people on blood pressure and ashmatic medications might have to be cautious of potentiation effects.

meteor
Curandero posted 02 October 2000 03:37 AM
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I had a dream today:
10 grams Mimosa hostilis stem bark combined with 5 grams rootbark.

&

4.5 grams Peganum harmala.

These were finely powdered last night and then allowed to soak separately in glass containers each with 500 ml of distilled water acidified with 30 drops of muriatic acid. (15 drops per 250 ml).

In the morning, boiling started in covered glass pots with dishes as covers with water in the dish (this allows for recondensation for the long first boiling, and water is added to the cover dish rather than the mix)

After two hours the first boiling was decanted and more acidified water added.

Second boiling was for 1.5 hrs, and brew decanted and added to that of the first boilings.

Third boiling was with distilled water only and for 45 min. This was decanted and added to the other boilings.

Finally, the Mimosa brew and Peganum brews were put in separate pots and the almost three cups of brew each was allowed to boil down to 3/4's cup each.

These were then put in separate cups and allowed to cool.

The the pH was tested. It came out to about 5 and was buffered with a level teaspoon of baking soda for each cup.

pH then tested at just below 7, and then I imagined the brews being consumed over the next fourty minutes with the Peganum going first followed by the Mimosa.

Results:

Fantastic dreams. Clear and bright, the body load was not bad at all, nor was the taste nearly quite as bad as with organic acids. Overall it was a very fine dream indeed, and using mostly stem bark no less!

In retrospect, I think that muriatic acidified water at a ratio of 250 ml water and 15 drops of acid is the best approach thus far to the problem of acidifying water for a proper brew.

And to minimize the acid content of the final product the second and third boilings might be done with straight distilled water as most if not all of the extraction is done in the first soak and boiling anyway.

This should make the final brew with a pH that is not too acidic, and the final dash of baking soda not necessary.

I have been dreaming for over 2 years now, and have tried many acidifying combinations. This is by far the best.

I am convinced that Sync should get the "Dreamscape Award" for finding the final fix for the water acidity problem.


[This message has been edited by meteor (edited 02 October 2000).]


waterhare
Member posted 02 October 2000 11:04 PM
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Persian grocers, Sync.

meteor
Curandero posted 03 October 2000 01:53 AM
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BTW, everyone.
There has been discussion in this thread that muriatic acid is, or might be yellow and that this would be a potential health problem as such a color would indicate impurities.

I had to change containers for the "Klean Strip" brand that I bought from Home Depot.

(It was leaking at the cap and the fumes were a problem)

In pouring it into a new polyethylene clear container I discovered that it is crystal clear, just like water. So this muriatic acid must be as pure as HCl gets. (HCl is said to be very slightly yellow, but I did not see it in in Home Depot's "Klean Strip" Muriatic Acid)

This puts to rest the waterhare's "yellow" warning-- at least for the brand that I purchased.

But the "yellow" warning is one that should be heeded, check it before you use it.



Dmcd
Ayahuasquero posted 03 October 2000 10:26 PM
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Just cause something is clear doesn't make it pure..
Dmcd


Sync
Member posted 04 October 2000 12:46 AM
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The purity of the muriatic acid from commercial sources is less of an issue than you might think. The reality is that the muriatic acid in the paint stripper and in the pool version come from the same manufacturers, from the same plants, and are then labeled differently. The only major difference is in “reagent” quality, which is obscenely pure for lab work. You can only get that grade from chemical supply houses. “Pool” muriatic acid has to be pure enough to drink in it’s diluted form because everyone that swims winds up ingesting some of it in the water, absorbing it through the skin, eyes, etc. I would be cautious about looking carefully on the labels of stripping products to ensure that muriatic acid is the only ingredient. Even trace elements are required to be listed. I’d also only buy from companies in the US or the heavily regulated western nations. Also, dilute the acid you will be working with immediately, 3-1 water to muriatic acid in a small sealed container, then store the rest outside in a safe place or get rid of it. He fumes of more concentrated muriatic acid are a health risk in closed spaces. Working with a solution of about 10% is safer and less nerve racking. The color question is just silly. It has nothing to do with toxicity, but if you have any even slight concern over any chemical, don’t use it!

meteor
Curandero posted 04 October 2000 04:15 AM
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The "Klean Strip" label is used on just about every solvent, and chemical sold by Home Depot, so that does not imply that the muriatic acid sold there is for just stripping paint or concrete.
The bottle that I purchased had in the directions that it is also used for pool pH adjustment (1 pint to every 10,000 gal).

And I fully agree with Sync that in this use, the purity is regulated.

Also, I only mention the "color" because this was brought up as evidence of impurities.

(So certain I am of quality regulations that I would use it for the purpose intended even if it had a very slight yellow color-- but it does not.)


don
Member posted 04 October 2000 05:49 AM
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Just got some reagent grade from a drug store, its funny, one wouldn't sell it to us, their other branch would after the purchaser filled out some poison control documents. The first question they ask is "why do you need this" To which one quickly replies without batting an eye, well its sort of a secret but I use it to adjust the pH while brewing home made wine, thats why I need this quality. I don't see what the big deal about selling it is considering you can buy it in a cruder form at any hardware store. This stuff is 36% I seem to remember being told and cost about 20bux for 100ml, haven't seen it yet so I don't know if its clear. Have to be careful where I store it, wouldn't want to keep it in the guest bathroom, right next to the visine.
(A joke)!!!

nodnarb
Initiate posted 04 October 2000 09:57 PM
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I have a bottle of muriatic acid. On the label it says: "18 (degree symbol) baume. What does this mean?

Sync
Member posted 04 October 2000 11:21 PM
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Baume is a scale that measures liquid density. 1deg. Baume = water. 36% muriatic acid is 22deg. baume. You probably have standard commercial muriatic acid at somthing like 31.45%. BTW, anyone going to use muriatic acid should check out the following: http://siri.uvm.edu/msds/h/q127/q231.html

remoohrs
Member posted 05 October 2000 04:46 AM
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the paper says acid on skin bad.
it also says

Unusual Fire And Expl Hazrds: HYDROCHLORIC ACID ITSELF IS NON-FLAMMABLE.
THERE IS, HOWEVER, A LATENT FIRE OR EXPLOSION HAZ DUE TO HYDROGEN GAS
GENERATED WHEN ACID IS IN CNTCT W/METALS.
===========================================================================
Reactivity Data
===========================================================================
Stability: YES
Cond To Avoid (Stability): CONTACT WITH METALS MAY CAUSE GENERATION OF
FLAMMABLE CONCENTRATIONS OF HYDROGEN GAS.
Materials To Avoid: AVOID BASE AND CORROSIVE MATERIALS. AVOID CONTACT WITH
MOST METALS. AVOID OXIDIZING MATL, CAN OXIDIZE TO CHLORINE.
Hazardous Decomp Products: NONE.
Hazardous Poly Occur: NO
Conditions To Avoid (Poly): NOT RELEVANT


no metal allowed.

that's about it.


treehugger
Member posted 09 October 2000 12:24 AM
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I wouldn't put pool or concrete grade HCL in my body period. I'll save my breath on the subject of its purity, but if someone is going to do this then consider the following. After mixing your 250ml of water with 15 drops (1/2 ml?) of HCL, shake it with and filter it through some activated carbon ... available anywhere aquarium supplies are sold, including walmart.
I'm not going to say this would make it safe, but it wouldn't hurt.


oneoverzero
Member posted 09 October 2000 09:31 AM
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wow what a great idea using dilute HCl, of all acids it is the strongest in aqueous solution next only to HBr and HI. I can imagine it dissolving the cell membranes quite cleanly.
Just a note on pH'ing up to 7 from 5. If you use Na-bicarb to neutralize the HCl, you'll get Na-Cl as the salt in solution, table salt.

You could just as easily use a Tums or Rolaids, in vitro.


stephen
Member posted 09 October 2000 05:15 PM
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Would it make sense to evaporate a certain amount of muriatic acid in a dish and look for a left-over residue as a way to better ensure the purity of the product?


meteor
Curandero posted 09 October 2000 06:38 PM
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Done that, and it leaves no residue.


Sync
Member posted 09 October 2000 07:18 PM
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Never ingest anything your uncomfortable with for any reason, obviously. The idea of charcoal filtration for hcl just will not work, it’s not a particulate compound, and it’s infinitely soluble in water. Also, unless your filtering for some kind of organic in the water it’s generally a exercise in futility that will put carbon into the brew which you then wind up drinking. If you evaporate muriatic acid in a dish to check for residue, which I haven’t done, and you find some, you still don’t know what it is unless you analyze it. Thing is, for the muriatic acid to be contaminated with trace elements, those elements would have to be present in the manufacturing process, which then failed to get rid of them. They are not.
I have found one concern, be it a small one, with using muriatic acid and clean filtering the brew. Brew done this way, IMHO, is somewhere around twice as powerful per gram of plant material as using an organic acidifying agent. Adjust downward accordingly. I tried a dream with 12grams MHRB and got a wonderful five-hour heaven/hell ride. With no sediment or organic acidifiers the brew produces no significant nausea or intestinal distress at all. It’s a very clean dream, easy on the body, deep, and the spirit of the brew comes through clearly and with great power. For purists who believe in the native wisdom and preparation methods this may not be a desired outcome. My purpose has been to create a modernized, de-mythologised , clean, safe and reliable way to experience these dreams, to turn ayahuasca into a tool for spiritual exploration that can be applied without cultural context. I honestly don’t know it that’s a good thing or a bad thing. But, if you filter the brew it won’t make you sick, and if you brew with the muriatic acid you just about halved the cost of dreaming. Peace.



don
Member posted 09 October 2000 08:10 PM
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Twice as powerful!!!! I guess I had better do some adjusting downwards myself, at least some testing before doing what was a normal dose done with ascorbic. Thanks for the info(warning)

Dmcd
Ayahuasquero posted 10 October 2000 12:27 AM
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Well I have refrained from discussing this one to see where it would go.
I am definetly a purist and tend to stay away from stuff like this..

One thing I will mention is a certain very experienced guide/session leader who used ascorbic acid to adjust pH was once brought to the hospital quite unexpectedly with the symptoms of acute acidosis. While none of the other participants were harmed he mentioned to me he thinks that too much acidity in the brew may have been the cause. While I certainly don't know the full details of this or even if it was related to the acidity of the brew it does make me want to extend a note of caution to you all..

However this is also somewhat interesting if it actually does increase potency of dreams.

I have a good friend and he has tried just about every brewing process that has ever been thought up (In a country where legal of course) from the short 20min extraction, to letting it soak, to pressure cooking. He feels that he has yet to come across a reliably more potent process.. He settled on a 3-5 hour pressure cooking as the most reliable. However none of the methods that someone claimed was "extremely more efficient" were even slightly stronger.

However I am sure he would be interested if more then one of you had dreams that could substantiate this method's increased potency.

Dmcd



meteor
Curandero posted 10 October 2000 06:01 AM
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I for one can attest to the increased potency. A dream of 4 g. Peganum harmala and 10 grams of Mimosa stem bark mixed with 5 grams of root bark resulted in a very strong dream. In the past this mix used with the organic acids was mild at best.
I think that the hydrochlorides of the actives that make Ayahuasca what it is are much more active than their acetate, citrate, or ascorbic counterparts.

ALSO-- I am dreaming of brewing with the HCl solution then evaporating the brew to leave a solid extract of the plants. Boil down in a microwave oven in a ceramic baking pan to a thick sludge, and alow to dry.

This extract will contain the hydrochlorides and no HCl as that evaporates turning into gas in the absence of water.

Then the dream would be to reconstitute the brew when the dreaming is to begin.

Really, folks, and the objections of the purists aside, HCl is the way to go.
It is clean, efficient and effective in acidfying brewing water. 10 to 15 drops per/250 ml is just right.

BTW-- I read somewhere that taking Tums and other anti-acids is not advised. These could create a hypertensive crisis. The best way to adjust the pH is to use baking soda, or bi-carb. (Or as I said, it could be boiled down to a sludge and this then allowed to dry to a solid-- the brew could then be re-constituted later by adding the right amount of hot water)


[This message has been edited by meteor (edited 10 October 2000).]


nodnarb
Initiate posted 10 October 2000 01:15 PM
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If you were to use muriatic acid, check the label for bittering agents! (UGGHH!)

meteor
Curandero posted 10 October 2000 04:28 PM
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Bittering agents ???
No such additives are in muriatic acid. You will find these in de-natured alcohol, but not in muriatic acid.

BTW-- HCl must be dissolved in water to be stable. There is no such thing at 100% HCl, and it is bonded to water, otherwise it is a gas.

When the very dilute herb solution is boiled down the tiny amount of HCl in the solution evaproates leaving a pure plant residue.



remoohrs
Member posted 10 October 2000 05:45 PM
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tums (calcim carbonate)? could create a hypertensive crisis?
is that really true? seems like it couldn't be........i dunno


meteor
Curandero posted 10 October 2000 06:45 PM
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Tums, di-gel, and other over the counter "anti-acids" have things in them other than "calcium carbonate."
I can't remember where I read it, but I saw a caution on using these with Ayahuasca.

It is safer to use straight baking soda or powder than to risk it.

A rule to remember "When in doubt-- keep it out."



Sync
Member posted 10 October 2000 07:29 PM
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The same process works as well with rue extraction. Dry both components, mixed or not, shelf life will probably be many, many years.

treehugger
Member posted 11 October 2000 05:21 AM
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any residue left behind would be something you would need a microscope to look for. We're talking about parts per million-- the level where it is toxic.
Still not saying this is safe (for whatever sake.. why not just find some usp grade!!!

I know it would take a fine filter to remove the carbon pieces, but the heavy metals should be bound to it, and not be released into the human body. Pass it through a brita water filter if you are still worried about the metal laiden carbon. -- no don't pass the brew through the filteraton process, just the acid treated water before mixing with whatever you are thinking of mixing it with.


Placenta Juan
Initiate posted 12 October 2000 05:28 AM
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Hmmm, how about bubbling HCl gas through the brew? Just drip some H2SO4 onto some NaCl, (in a stoppered flask with a tube leading into brew) that way purity isn't an issue. Of course, then you have to deal with corrosive fumes. Probably not worth it. And the pH would probably drop pretty fast. Just an idea. Maybe it can be refined into something usable?

meteor
Curandero posted 12 October 2000 04:20 PM
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H2SO4 and table salt to make HCl gas, it is an idea for those unable to get HCl. But as muriatic it is very easy to get, and pure.
One thing I would like to point out with regards to metals-- do not use them in brewing with HCl. Metal pots, spoons, dishes are out, use only glass.



stephen
Member posted 12 October 2000 07:01 PM
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but I would assume that iron as well as stainless steel (mostly iron anyway) cooking utencils are safe. Indeed, many people recommend avoiding alluminum pots and pans for any general cooking exercise due to the problem of leaching metals into the result. I'd imagine that a pot of spaghetti sauce could easily have a lower pH than a typical ayahuasca brew. The danger here is similar.


remoohrs
Member posted 12 October 2000 09:18 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Unusual Fire And Expl Hazrds: HYDROCHLORIC ACID ITSELF IS NON-FLAMMABLE.
THERE IS, HOWEVER, A LATENT FIRE OR EXPLOSION HAZ DUE TO HYDROGEN GAS
GENERATED WHEN ACID IS IN CNTCT W/METALS.
===========================================================================
Reactivity Data
===========================================================================
Stability: YES
Cond To Avoid (Stability): CONTACT WITH METALS MAY CAUSE GENERATION OF
FLAMMABLE CONCENTRATIONS OF HYDROGEN GAS.
Materials To Avoid: AVOID BASE AND CORROSIVE MATERIALS. AVOID CONTACT WITH
MOST METALS. AVOID OXIDIZING MATL, CAN OXIDIZE TO CHLORINE.


meteor
Curandero posted 13 October 2000 12:31 AM
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DO NOT USE ANY METAL POTS !!!
STAINLESS OR OTHERWISE WITH HCl !

Okay with organic acids BUT NOT HCL

Use only glass or ceramic pots and utensils.



vox ovox
Member posted 13 October 2000 03:51 AM
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i would think that hcl ph adjusted water in a non aluminum pot would be as safe as organicaly adjusted water ...this is not so?

meteor
Curandero posted 13 October 2000 05:17 AM
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NO METAL POTS OR UTENSILS, ALUMINUM OR OTHERWISE WITH HCL !!!
Even in dilute form HCl is very powerful and it will leach metal into the brew.

Use ONLY pyrex or glazed ceramics. But pyrex is the best.

Also, in doing some extraction with HCL, I found that it stays in the solution all the way to boiling away. So, what I am doing now is to boil down to a small amout then I let it evaporate so that only a plant residue is left. The HCl then evaporates, too, leaving a clean and dry plant extract.

This can be then be gel-capped or reconstituted with some hot water into the brew.

No acid, no bi-carb. Just a nice clean extract with with all the Ayahuasca actives converted to xxxHCl (salts-- far more active than their acetate, citrate, or ascorbate counterparts-- easily 2x stronger)



vox ovox
Member posted 13 October 2000 05:30 AM
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thanx for the info meteor!

vox ovox
Member posted 13 October 2000 08:15 PM
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i will soon be dreaming of caapi/viridis using this manner of extraction.i will post results of the dream when i awake.

meteor
Curandero posted 16 October 2000 04:09 AM
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I am just awaking from a really fantastic dream using muriatic extracted Peganum harmala and Mimosa hostilis stem bark.
The proportions were:

4.5 g Peganum harmala
20 grams Mimosa hostilis stembark

Both were steeped separately in muriatic pH adjusted water (4.5 to 5).

Lightly simmered for half an hour, they were left to sit overnight (in pyrex pots).

The following morning the extract was poured off and boiled down to 1/4 cup, or less. The extracts were then put in a corning baking dish, and then put in the microwave for further moisture reduction.

When reduced to a thin paste this was allowed to air dry, completely eliminating the remaining HCl acid.

The residues, a paste and flakes, were then scraped and put in glass containers.

The process was repeated three times, and the extract became less and less each time.

Then, today I had a dream that involved re-dissolving the extracts (5 grams of red Mimosa flakes, and 3 grams of dark brown Peganum tar) into 3/4s cup of water each. (I tested the pH to see what it was and it tested as 6.5-- very slightly acidic, but not from HCl. Instead it must be the tannins in the Mimosa and perhaps some other acid in the Peganum that does not evaporate)

The Peganum went first, followed by the Mimosa.

The resulting dream was extraordinarily intense, which is surprising for Mimosa stem bark, as this is considered quite weak compared to root bark.

I also noticed that the Peganum exrract's effects were very close to that of cappi-- there was not that heavy buzz or body load that is often reported and which I had experienced with Peganum.

The dream came on with nice blue and green patterns and a very nice mellow cappi like high, then about half an hour after the onset of the dream the Mimosa kicked in with trememdous orange, yellow, and huge spectrum of irredescent images within a shimmering silver background.

This was a clean and spectacular dream, and without the harshness that one would expect with the use of Peganum.

I think Sync is right. In extracting rue with HCl and then allowing it to dry converts the harmaline to the less harsh harmine-- the major active found in cappi.

Considering the ingredients, this is by far the best method of extraction that I have ever used, and the dream superior to any other method that I have used with the same plants. And reducing the extract to dry components makes the dream day much easier, and time effective.

Instant Ayahuasca anyone?

Just dream of adding hot water, stir and enjoy!


[This message has been edited by meteor (edited 16 October 2000).]


Sync
Member posted 19 October 2000 07:39 PM
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Carefull of over-drying with heat. You wind up with a sand-like residue that can not be re-constituted, even with hcl. And BTW, I just ruined a set of stainless steel pots, so do use glass.

meteor
Curandero posted 20 October 2000 06:33 AM
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Sync,
Right, drying should be at low levels of heat. Boil it down to about 1/4th cup and then dry in a microwave a bit more, then allow to evaporate. The result is a very thick but dry gum.

And yes using metal pots is a no-no. Not only does it ruin the pots, it gets metal in the brew--- bad.

Glass or corning is the only way, and that goes for the stirring utensils, too.

BTW-- Sync, did you get my responses to your messages regarding this subject and about depression? I sent them some time ago, but not sure if you got them.


[This message has been edited by meteor (edited 20 October 2000).]


oneoverzero
Member posted 21 October 2000 08:08 AM
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Glad to know that about the antacids, you see I've had a hernia betweem the esophogas and stomach for many years. Eat way too many tums and rolaids. Preparing this very dream indeed now. May have dodged a bullet.
Roloiads: Calcium Carbonate, Magnesium Hydroxide + Dextrose, flavoring, Magnesium Stearate, Polyethylene Glycol, Pregelitinized starch and Sucrose.

No amines, lots of hydrocarbons and sugars.


meteor
Curandero posted 21 October 2000 06:23 PM
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oneoverzero,
I have found that if you boil down the muriatic (HCl) extractions, the pH of the concentrated liquid lowers significantly. In other words its acidity increases. It would take quite a bit of antiacids to bring it back up-- so what I suggest is that you boil it down to about 1/4th cup (each ingredient separately, that is 1/4th cup for the cappi and 1/4th cup for the viridis, or whatever combination you choose).

Strain the extracts through a cheese cloth (I use a piece of tee shirt) into pyrex pots.

DO NOT USE ANY METAL POTS OR STIRRING UTENSILS !!!

This is very important as HCl, even in dilute form leaches metal into the brew if prepared in metal pots. You do not want copper, nickel, aluminum or what is in stainless in your system, as this can be a health hazard.

Put the extracts in a Corning Ware or Pyrex baking dish then mircrowave it to remove most of the water. (The acidity will skyrocket, but don't worry about that). You want to microwave it to a thin syrup. Then take the backing dishes and set them in a warm oven, say 150 deg F. and dry the extract. But be sure that the heat is low in this final step and monitor it. You do not want to carbonize the extract-- so keep the heat as low as possible.

Do the HCl extractions three times with the plant materials to get out all of the actives. (The amount of muriatic is about 30 drops per 500 ml of water which is the amount of water needed to effectivey extract for each boiling step)

Result-- a thick paste for both, (Mimosa stem bark makes red flakes rather than a paste).

Scrape the paste out of the dishes and then reconstitute with water to make the dream brew. (Alternatively, you could gel cap and take it that way).

Though a bit involved to make this way, you can prepare multiple doses, so in the scheme of preperation it is the best method.

But more importantly, I have found that the HCl has been evaporated out of the plant material, and a re-constituted tea has a pH of about 6.5 with tap water at 7.

HCl is the last thing to evaporate out of the brew, so you want to take advantage complete evaporation before dreaming with it. Also, you won't have to use anti-acids if done this way.


[This message has been edited by meteor (edited 21 October 2000).]


Dmcd
Ayahuasquero posted 24 October 2000 10:04 PM
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A couple problems I see in this theoretical approach.
1. Drying out large amounts is impractical. If this were legal where someone is making 15 doses, 3 doses each for 5-7 people (which would likely be a small gathering traditionally.) thats a hell of a lot of reduction to powder going on.

2. Going down to powder involves a solution of super high saturation. stuff is going to start percipitating out and be vaporized on the hot sides of the pots. I am very hesitant to imagine taking a 15 dose prep down to 1/4 cup liquid and not lose anything by doing so. If it were staying liquid that would be 60 ounces of fluid..

3. If people had no desire to go to the extremely time consuming process of powdering and keep it as a liquid how would the acidity issue be addressed? Baking soda would be my only guess to neutralize the acid safely.

4. If you are going to go to all that trouble to evaporate the water why not just use acetone or ethanol which would be far better solvents then acidified water.


fractanimist
Initiate posted 25 October 2000 03:30 AM
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The only glass or pyrex pots which I have found say "not for stovetop use." Any suggestions on where to get the right ones or is it okay as long as the heat is low enough? Also, can the diluted muriatic acid be safely kept in any plastic container?

meteor
Curandero posted 25 October 2000 05:12 AM
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I will try to answer each of the above in this single post.
Dmcd
Ayahuasquero posted 24 October 2000 10:04 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
A couple problems I see in this theoretical approach.
1. Drying out large amounts is impractical. If this were legal where someone is making 15 doses, 3 doses each for 5-7 people (which would likely be a small gathering traditionally.) thats a hell of a lot of reduction to powder going on.


Meteor>
Theoretically, yes. Large amounts of acidified water is needed.

Dmcd>
2. Going down to powder involves a solution of super high saturation. stuff is going to start percipitating out and be vaporized on the hot sides of the pots. I am very hesitant to imagine taking a 15 dose prep down to 1/4 cup liquid and not lose anything by doing so.


Meteor>
The theoretical reduction level is 1/4th cup per dose. So for 15 that would amount to something like 7 cups in the final boiling. These 7 cups would then be evaporated to the solids. Yes it will to some extent percipitate out as the concentration increases, but this is the final concentration from those 7 cups per/15 dose then evaporated down to a solid. Anything that settles out would therefore be in that solid anyway.

For a single dose, the amount of acidified water is 2 cups, boiled down to 1/4, repeated three times. So for one theoretical dose for each plant principle would have about 3/4ths cups concentrated brew. This would then be evaproated to solids (separate or combined).


Dmcd>
If it were staying liquid that would be 60 ounces of fluid..

Meteor>
Right, that would be before boiling down to the 7 cups which would then be further reduced to solids in a 150deg oven in corning ware baking dishes. Or theoretically it could be gently reduced by using the micowave to a smaller amount before drying in a warm oven.

Dmcd>
3. If people had no desire to go to the extremely time consuming process of powdering and keep it as a liquid how would the acidity issue be addressed? Baking soda would be my only guess to neutralize the acid safely.

Meteor>
Theoretically, yes. But in this I conjecture will create a really nasty brew. With all the salts I imagine it would be extremely hard on the stomach.


Dmcd>
4. If you are going to go to all that trouble to evaporate the water why not just use acetone or ethanol which would be far better solvents then acidified water.

Meteor>
Theoretically speaking, I have heard that this has been done, and the results were good, but in the theoretical comparisons that I have made I have found that the product by water based HCl extraction is far superior to methanol, and acetone methods.

Perhaps it has something to do with the fact that the actives are bases (alkaloids) and the HCl (acid) effects a better means of rendering these water soluable by converting them to salts. I think also that the acid tends to break down the cell walls more effectively than with the other solvent based methods.

The product is much more water soluable than with those produced by methanol or acetone solvents. (I think this is because these organic solvents tend to dissolve resins that would not be brought into solution by acidified water).

Also, produced with HCl acidified water, and then dried the HCl evaporates completely. This leaves a highly water soluable product, that theoretically will not have near the bite that one might expect with other methods.

-----------------------------------------
IP: Logged

fractanimist
Initiate posted 25 October 2000 03:30 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The only glass or pyrex pots which I have found say "not for stovetop use." Any suggestions on where to get the right ones or is it okay as long as the heat is low enough?

Meteor>
Pyrex pots and pans can be had under the "Corning Ware" brand, They come in translucent brown or pure white, and both are made from Pyrex, borosilicate glass.
They are thick and stove top safe.

The pots that I have are translucent brown (but some are perfectly clear) and have stamped on the handles "VISION Corning USA"

The large Corning baking pans for drying are marked "CORNING WARE-- oven-baking-microwave"

These are usually solid white, but they are still pyrex glass.

fractanimist>
Also, can the diluted muriatic acid be safely kept in any plastic container?

Meteor>
Yes. Acidified water can be kept in standard plastic water jugs. Even concentrated HCl is kept in polyethylene plastic containers. HCl has no effect on most plastics, and glass-- but do not-- I repeat do not store it in anything that is metal or use utensils that are made of metal when dealing with it. Use a polyehtylene or glass eyedropper to make the mix. And be sure to flush the eyedropper with fresh water after you are finished with it.

Concentrated HCl is dangerous if not handled properly. Keep it in a safe place and acidify your water in a well ventilated area. For an extra measure of safety I put the concentrate bottle in a larger tupperware pail with lid.

However the acidified water is perfectly safe in its dilute form and a plastic water jug is all that is necessary.

(Even if someone drank it, it would not kill them-- but they might get a bad case of heartburn)


[This message has been edited by meteor (edited 25 October 2000).]


Dmcd
Ayahuasquero posted 25 October 2000 03:49 PM
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Hmm i think you just restated what i was pointing out..
The fact remains evaporating 7 cups or beyond is a very time consuming method especially if you just spent 5-10 hours extracting..

Also i have been thinking about the baking soda method. First off the salts i would say probably don't add to anything but maybe a worse tasting brew. Baking soda is an old fashioned indigestion cure. It neutralizes the HCl in your stomach and obviously those salts don't add to your indigestion.

So my guess at this point is that if you want to do the HCL method you either have to neutralize the HCL with baking soda or some other safe for consumption Base, or evaporate it.

If the only difference would be in a bit worse tasting brew i'd have to concede that the bakind soda method was superior due to the less time involved. I mean hell it's a bad tasting brew anyway. Those looking to avoid the taste would go to evaporation anyway.

Hmm I would definetly like to hear if anyone has dreams of the HCl and baking soda method. I've done extraction evaporations on other herbs and it is a major pain in the ass.

Dmcd


Sync
Member posted 25 October 2000 05:15 PM
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The hcl extraction method is far simpler and faster than you guys are making it.
1. Each extraction only takes 15min. of boiling. That’s 45 min for a complete 3x extraction. By the third there’s virtualy nothing left. DMT melts at a higher temp than water boils, boil hard.

2. If you decant the brew to get a really clean brew, you can hard boil it down to the consistency of syrup very quickly, then bake on 200deg in a corning dish until dry. I’ts quick, even for large amounts. Without the sediment the wax and oils are mostly gone and you can get a reconstitutable powder. Doing four doses at a time is almost as easy as doing one. It does save time.

3. Stop worrying about drinking the diluted hcl so much. What’s in your stomach is already far, far more concentrated. There is no need to raise the ph, believe me, I’ve had this dream a lot.

4. Hcl brew tastes much, much better than any other method. The brew is thinner and less sour. No need to screw it up with antacids.

Again, theoretically, this is only with MHRB, and you will never get a dud brew with this method. If you filter the tea, it will not make you sick, or give you the squirts. Hcl and filtration, try it, you’ll like it.



Dmcd
Ayahuasquero posted 25 October 2000 05:43 PM
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I still disagree with letting it sit for too long. Decanting hot and filtering is a sure way to get very little particulate matter. The sediment that forms later is usually because the collodial fraction of the brew settles out when cool. Colloids of any type are really good to have as they many times have ions and alkaloids stuck to them. That is why i think if you let them settle out you are taking out much of the potency of the brew. With a high potency mimosa it won't matter. However i would propose that this prep theoretically may work better for all analogues. A cold decant may interfere with results of other analogue experiments.
Although i think you may be right about the dilute HCL point. Maybe neither baking soda nor evaporation is needed.

Dmcd


stephen
Member posted 25 October 2000 06:54 PM
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Then can I suggest multiple decants? This could increase the overall prep time considerably, but perhaps one could do a 15 minute boiling, refrigerate for 24 hours, decant the result and reboil for 15 minutes... etc... I haven't ever dreamed of trying this, however, I hope to dream of it some day. I suspect that this would work around the issue of losing alkaloids to filtered sediment.


Sync
Member posted 25 October 2000 11:52 PM
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dcmd, did I catch a hint maybee that your friend in Peru found the hcl method to actually work?
Vox, did you dream well?

meteor
Curandero posted 26 October 2000 05:53 AM
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Dmcd, and Sync,
In my theory, a 2 to 4 dose perparation does save time.

Evaporating it down is no problem, and the result is theoretically far superior and convenient in the long run.

Total evaporation is no problem where I live as the humidity is just under 10% most of the time, and the high altitude helps in boiling it down, too.

I have dreamt of using bi-carbs in it and it works well, but for some reason, it works best without, and better still-- dried then reconstituted.

But one consideration for using bi-carb solution is as a mouthwash. HCl is very bad on the teeth. So to keep your whites you want swish the mouth with bi-carb after purging, and after downing this brew. Just swish and spit it out.



vox ovox
Member posted 26 October 2000 07:54 PM
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greetings people.last week a little green man let me observe him prepare the magic potion...he included aprox 35-40g c.caapi 1oz. h.viridis,and aprox.5g mhrb.these lovely ingredients were placed in his croKpot,along with a nice helping of hcl adj.water(30 drop per500ml)cooked/reduce/strainedx3.this little green man was very patient,total cooking time including final reduction was aprx.14 hrs.i had planned on continuing part 2 of my dream the following night,but i have had to attend to family/personal& other genraly mundane type things that require booth feet in this world.however,i plan to pick up w/part2 this weekend.my little green friend is keeping the magic potion in his fridge.i will post results of the dream immediately following... ...peace...

IAK
Initiate posted 27 October 2000 06:45 PM
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I've heard harmonium chloride salts have low solubility (the acetic acid/salt method). Will HCl extractions work with Caapi? How concentrated can the solution be before solid HaCl start percipicating out?

meteor
Curandero posted 28 October 2000 03:31 AM
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Theoretically, HCl extraction of cappi will do very well.
The thing is that there are other things that are extracted, too. The result is a waxy deep brown-red powder that is high in harmime.

Not sure what the concentration would be before harmine comes out of solution, but I imagine that it would have to be quite high.

60 grams of cappi, 3x extracted with HCl acidified water, will produce about 12 grams of dried extract.

This cappi extract will be very water soluable.


[This message has been edited by meteor (edited 28 October 2000).]


Huambisa
Member posted 29 October 2000 04:59 PM
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Umm, okay.. So no metal untensils or pots. That tends to complicate things. Finding a non metal pot is pretty difficult (at least it has been so far). I remember seeing the Corningware Visions pot set, however they seem pretty small. What if someone wanted a larger pot like an 8quart.. Finding one not made of metal is kinda hard. All the stuff I've seem is mostly bakeware and can't go on the stove.
The other option is a crock pot but I have never seen one that can even get hot enough to boil. And apparently as i have read in the archives crock pots are not that effective anyway since they don't boil..

Are we resigned to clay pots over an open fire?


IAK
Initiate posted 29 October 2000 06:17 PM
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How about teflon? That's probably not affected by HCl.

meteor
Curandero posted 29 October 2000 06:58 PM
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Crock pots will probably work very well with an HCl solution. HCl does not really need much boiling to do extractions. The acid alone pulls the actives out, but a little heat does speed the process up.
The boiling after straining is mainly to reduce the amount of liquid so that evaporation to a dry material can done in a reasonable amount of time.

The Corning Ware pots that I have are 4 cups and 8 cups capacity. With the theoretical two doses, and three extractions of said amounts the product is easy boil down then dry.

You can boil down in a ceramic baking dish in a microwave or use an oven to accomplish the same end-- just make sure the heat is not too much above 220 deg. Then as it becomes a paste, back the heat down to under 200 degrees.

As for teflon. It should work-- JUST SO LONG AS THERE IS NOT A SINGLE SCRATCH OR PINHOLE IN IT. HCl in even dilute amounts has a very strong afinity for metal, and teflon coated pots are usually aluminum. If there is any flaw in the teflon coating, the acid will find it and eat away at the metal beneath.

Glass or ceramics are really the best materials to use with HCl acidified water.

If the "Corning Vison" pyrex pots cannot be obtained commercially then one could go to a lab supply and buy large pyrex boiling beakers, 1000 to 2000 ml ones can be obtained, and they work very well on hot plates.

Theoretically, one could put the materials in large mason jars then put into a larger metal pot used as a boiling bath. This way the acidified water is not in contact with the metal pot, but the glass mason jar instead.

Any method to keep HCl acidified water away from metal and withstand some heat will work.


[This message has been edited by meteor (edited 29 October 2000).]


Ganzi
Member posted 30 October 2000 01:23 AM
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Huambisa, i'll send you a nice big glass pan, big enough for your needs, if your prepared to pay the postage from the uk man....

Huambisa
Member posted 30 October 2000 01:57 AM
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Actually I think i'm on to something. Enamel Pots.. can get a real cheap one at Kmart/Walmart. Or http://www.cooking.com/products/shprodde.asp?SKU=146691 for a real good quality one. I was told by a chemist that the enamel should be unreactive with HCL..

meteor
Curandero posted 30 October 2000 03:47 AM
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I had a pure dream today.
3 grams of dry Peganum harmala extract derived from HCl acidified water.

5 grams of dry Mimosa hostilis extract(stem bark as opposed to root bark).

This was in theory added to hot water for the brew.

Result, what a great dream!

HCl acidified water, and then dried is beyond a shadow of a doubt, and in theory, the best way to dream of making this brew.



Huambisa
Member posted 30 October 2000 03:40 PM
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I'd have to agree with Dmcd's points on evaporation.. It is just as easy to add a pinch of Baking soda to bring the pH back up and it does not affect the taste or nausea. I think evaporation is an overkill. The HCL extraction seems to be a good one but theres no need to evaporate it. Besides ease of storage I don't see any advantage to it. Freezing is just as easy for storage and saves much more time then evaporating and scraping it up.

meteor
Curandero posted 30 October 2000 05:33 PM
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You are right, maybe drying out is as you say "overkill" But the great advantage to complete evaporation is that it provides "instant." And re-constituted, it is as close to a pure water extraction as could possibly be obtained without having to add all the sodium or phosphate found in bi-carbs or baking soda. And really, you would have to add quite a bit of bi-carb to HCl acidified water (30 drops per/500 ml acid to water ratio). I measured about two teaspoons to bring it up to a pH of 6.
Evaporation eliminates the acid without having to add buffers. I have also heard that HCl extraction of Peganum harmala then dried will convert the harmaline to the better harmine by oxidation as the excess HCl leaves the extract. If true this is a big advantatge at least with Peganum harmala.

But really either way is good, and it depends on individual tastes and the amount of prep time one is willing to spend.


[This message has been edited by meteor (edited 31 October 2000).]


fractanimist
Initiate posted 30 October 2000 06:38 PM
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I had a dream last night where I used 30g caapi and 30g p. viridis. Boiled separately for 20 min in muriatic adjusted water 3 times then dehydrated. Both extracts took about 3 hours. reconstituted in warm water and slowly drank over and hour. Taste was pleasant. No nausea at all. This turned out to be an incredible dream and I am definitely an advocate of the hcl method. Thank you to all who brought this method to the forum and helped modify it, I see very good things in the future.

dendro
Member posted 31 October 2000 03:38 AM
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the inevitable question arises (tho I don't know why it should), does anyone know of any aliens who have tried pyrolytic assay of the dried powder? I assume aliens, with their large lungs, might have some experience even with this "bulky extract"?

Huambisa
Member posted 02 November 2000 02:02 PM
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Although it may take a teaspoon or more to get it to pH of 6 bringing it up from very low pH's like 2 or 3 due to reducing the amount of liquid is done quite easily with just a pinch.. That usually brings it up past 4.5 or 5. As anyone who has done a titration before knows the reaction moves very quickly at high and low pH however takes a lot to pass by the neutral barrier.
A pinch will take it up to a point where you won't taste the acidity or the baking soda.


Xenonpill
Member posted 02 November 2000 09:35 PM
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dendro-
A venusian associate of my dead brother's football coach claimed to have dreamed about smoking crude extracts such as those described... and claimed it was both harsh and ineffective.
Or so I heard...

-Xenonpill


oneoverzero
Member posted 06 November 2000 08:32 AM
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Oh baby! Welcome me to the world of ayahuasca!
Let me confirm that this HCl method works, and works well. Had my first dream indeed. What levels of health and happiness!

Meteor, thank you for the info. Sorry I missed it, but I want to share my success.

Fell asleep and found the dream self on horseback in a thick dark jungle. The female lioness frigtened me with her stretching musculature. The dream self was scared so pulled a puny pocket knife and cut off a leaf and stem to show her. The female lioness was inches from his ear and whispered, "that's ayahuasca".

In this dream the ancient warrior used 500ml spring water with 80 drops of 8.7% HCl. 9 grams PH, 9 grams MHRB, separately. And get this, steeped in a coffee pot for 12 hours. Half the water and half the time for the second pull.

Yes. Boiling down to a syrup gets so acidic a mere nip of a sip burns the toungue. 60ml of syrup requires a level tablespoon of baking soda. Volcanic foaming.

Complete evaporation is the way. Oh yeah! Worth the time, no hurry, no bad taste, no nausea, no kidding...


meteor
Curandero posted 06 November 2000 02:46 PM
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Happy your dreamer had a good journey.
Was the coffee pot that your dreamer used metal or glass? (Be sure to use glass or ceramic only, and don't run HCl acidified water through the coffee maker as this will certainly etch the metal boiling plate inside adding metal to the brew).

And yes, as it boils down the pH lowers and the acidity skyrockets because the acid is the last thing to evaporate.

I would not recommend that anyone dream of putting such a liquid concentrate in the mouth-- it could etch the teeth.

And adding large amounts of baking soda is-- well-- yuck!

It is really best to put it into a baking dish and let the oven at 150 deg F do the evaporation.

Result, acid is gone, and the dry material is then left to be stored for future use.

The dreamer can then dream of putting the dry product in a glass, add hot water, stir--instant ayahuasca!

The exrta work in the end really pays off.

This weekend the friend of a dreamer that I know had taken 30 grams of Cielo's Peruvian P. viridis (powdered) and 30 grams of Cielo's powdered cappi, and used the HCl method. Evaporated, put the product in a baggie, then two weeks later went on his excursion.

From what he told me it was a fine excursion indeed.

HCl extraction works for plants other than Peganum harmala, and Mimosa hostilis, and the HCl extracted compounds are by far more active than their organic acid extracted counterparts.

If you know of any dreamers that are so called "hardheads" and cannot break through, this method is most likely to produce positive results.


[This message has been edited by meteor (edited 06 November 2000).]


oneoverzero
Member posted 07 November 2000 04:03 PM
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Good morning meteor and thanx. Yes glass pot. The 12 cup variety. Hmmm, guessing the dreamer said its a constant 190 F. He mentioned also about only using a gold plated (pemenantly reusable) coffee filter. Ummm... I dunno, $20. Holds back the pulp, letting a pleasant amount of good silt go with. This may be stating the obvious, er, but the contraption not used like making coffee, no. That said, a square pyrex dish is the only other tool nessessary.
Agreed. Other plants as well. Dreamed of tobbacco. Black nugget. Burns as an offering, sure. Reconstitues too. The dreamer left in the fridge machine box, dropping resin particulate out of the water leaving a very light clearbrown tea.

Here's how the ancient warrior convinced me, "would you, in your right mind, take an ordinary glass of water, add even the slightest amount of hydrochloric acid, and drink it. Even if you were very thisty?" No way!

Ah, the word is spreading, good. Praises to Sync for diseminating his dreams.


meteor
Curandero posted 07 November 2000 04:30 PM
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Yes,
The dreamer I know would not drink a glass of water with HCl in it. That is why complete evaporation is a must. (However, HCl will not hurt you if the concentration is low, and it is often given to those who do not have enough acid in their stomachs)

Fortunately, without the presence of water, HCl turns into a gas and evaporates, leaving a nice clean residue that can then be added to clear clean water.

So the dreamer told me.



Sync
Member posted 07 November 2000 05:06 PM
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In a dream I went to the fridge, and in reaching for a drink, a glass bottle of hcl tea fell to the floor and shattered like crimson blood on the floor and over my feet. Cleaning up the tragedy, I washed my feet and found that where the tea had touched my big toe nail it was stained brown. It did not wash off, but had etched its color into the nail. After musing about possible shamanic metaphors, I began contemplating what such acid brew might make my teeth look like in a few months. Humm, time to retract my assertion that drinking the hcl tea without prior evaporation is OK. It won’t hurt you, but having your teeth tattooed maroon? Hummm, draw little wax animals on your front teeth, drink ayahuasca, have your power animals etched into your enamel for all to see…..naaah.

meteor
Curandero posted 08 November 2000 02:58 AM
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Yes,
A disembodied spirit confirmed to me that complete evaporation is the best, and really the only way to rid the brew of HCl.

(Not that it would harm you, other than perhaps as you noted stain the teeth).

That one extra step is really worthwhile.



frogboy
Member posted 09 November 2000 06:14 AM
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Meteor
Several times I read your ideas on evaporation and thought...why? Just add some baking soda when reduced....WRONG
Good job!! Leaps and bounds better!!
And welcome as mediator, definatly starting off in the right direction....also if you happen to be reading this DMCD thanks for past help....

remoohrs
Member posted 09 November 2000 06:45 AM
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i don't see why baking soda wouldn't work too provided enough was added, though admittedly evaporation seems like it would be better and i just tried some straight (it was old tho) and it didn't taste that good.

Sync
Member posted 09 November 2000 05:48 PM
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I don't know but i've been told, that it's a lot simpler to just let the tea evaporate under mild heat right in the pot under close supervision, then add a little water once the hcl is gone to get tea. Don't know why anyone would bother with the baking soda.
[This message has been edited by Sync (edited 09 November 2000).]


don
Member posted 10 November 2000 01:47 AM
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Speaking of baking soda, I've got a good one there, this involves the standard imaginary friend who has a talent for cooking San Pedro in Lemon Juice, "none of dat bottled sheeit, go out and get me 36 of the biggest juicest fattest motherfuckers money can buy then and only then I may make some". Needless to say this stuff packs a whallop, but christ is it acidic. To make a long story short this friend of mine comes up with the idea that if one was to mix up a glass of bicarb and water, drink it down just before the San Pedro it would neutralize the acidic cactus as soon as it hit the gut. In theory this is a great idea, so he downs his bicarb, and then tosses back a large glass of cactus juice, about 15 seconds later he starts lurching around the kitchen, grabbing at things with his eyes bugging out like a speared fish......then came the foam, like a fire extinguisher it came, and came, luckily he had found a large steel bowl. I guess it was the old adding baking soda to vinager scenario, make your own volcano. Gawd that was funny, we laughed about that one for days, even the volcano himself found it hilarious.

oneoverzero
Member posted 11 November 2000 11:52 AM
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The ancient warrior was making tea. "TEA!", he said! But the female lioness wanted paint. "PAINT!", she said as he spooned white powder into the beautiful deep red tea. "Purple paint?", he spoke. She whispered, "To paint on the canvas of your conciousness."

Meat
Initiate posted 12 November 2000 12:15 AM
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Check out this set of stovetop glassware. It should meet all of your cooking needs! http://shop.store.yahoo.com/svcm/141396.html

vox ovox
Member posted 12 November 2000 03:26 PM
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hello all, my alien pal took me cruisin 'round the universe last night he said dont bother telling this story,because no one would believe it ...anyway he said "try this,its good for you"(keep in mind where we were at this is legal,as are all things of divine,exploratory nature,anyway....once again i watched him prepare the elixir,the ingredients as follows : 2 oz cielo caapi,aprox 1 3/4 g syrian rue,20 HEFTYg of cielo bot.chinchilejo challiponga,5-7g brazillian mhrb.he said he made it good and strong because i am a "hardhead" and needed a good smackin around(to quote sync "tough love,if you will).he said he was generous with THE vine,saying the more the merrier,and that i may be alittle hard of hearing,in that it has spoken before,but i needed to pump up the volume,pump up the volume,dance,dance(JOKE..haha),guess what? he was right! oh of course he used the hcl. method,he didnt bother with complete evaporation,he said he liked it as is,fine with me,i will post the rest of the story on the discussion forum under demin's "an amazing dream",...god bless. jetlag...god bless you all.
[This message has been edited by vox ovox (edited 12 November 2000).]


Ingo Christian Meyer
Member posted 13 November 2000 07:01 PM
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Hello,
Is it necessary to cook the brew if using hcl method??
How much of swiming pool hcl should I use per water?

Than you.



remoohrs
Member posted 14 November 2000 12:28 AM
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INGO,
i hear that cooking is not necessary, evaportaion at 150 F is recommended afterwards...
how much hcl is used would depend on the amount of coffee used....

meteor put this:
With one cup of distilled water about 10 drops of Muriatic acid brought about a pH of about 5.

----so for the sake of comprehensive coverage in this long ass topic i was wondering if
there a danger of screwing it up if too much hcl is used?--------------------------------


[This message has been edited by remoohrs (edited 14 November 2000).]


Ingo Christian Meyer
Member posted 14 November 2000 01:15 AM
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I have just one problem....
Here in Brasil, what is sold as Muriatic acid is a very dirty form of HCl..
I was talking to a chemist today and he told me that in the US the ma goes through trustable tests, but here in Brasil I would have to use pure HCl..
Do you know how much of it I should use?
How lonmg should I let it for alkaloid extraction?
Can I just evaporate all water after the extraction , add a bit of water and brew it like that or should I check the PH before?
Should I bring it to 7 to brew?

Thank you


meteor
Curandero posted 14 November 2000 05:43 AM
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quote:
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Originally posted by Ingo Christian Meyer:
I have just one problem....
Here in Brasil, what is sold as Muriatic acid is a very dirty form of HCl..
I was talking to a chemist today and he told me that in the US the ma goes through trustable tests, but here in Brasil I would have to use pure HCl..
Do you know how much of it I should use?
How lonmg should I let it for alkaloid extraction?
Can I just evaporate all water after the extraction , add a bit of water and brew it like that or should I check the PH before?
Should I bring it to 7 to brew?

Thank you


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Being that this is legal in Brazil--

Yes, by all means use pure HCl if you cannot trust the purity of local commercial muriatic.

Reagent quality HCl is virtually clear, or very, very pale yellow, and is at about 39% HCl, the rest being water.

Commercial Muriatic is about 31%

The amount of HCl used is 10-15 drops per/250ml (one cup).

You can add more, up to maybe 20 drops per/250 ml.

Simmer it for about 30 min. Let it sit for a few hours, pour off and boil down, and repeat 3 times.

It will not hurt you if you add too much HCl just evaporate it completely to a dry extract ridding it of the acid before making the tea.

The pH of the final tea should be between 6 and 7, and it is not necessary to add any anti-acids to bring it to a pH of 7.

Its plain, pure and simple.

(very powerful, too)


Ingo Christian Meyer
Member posted 15 November 2000 01:10 PM
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Thank you for your reply meteor.
But I still do have some questions...
First...
Wouldn't it be a problem to have a too low PH , like 2 or 3 ? Shouldn't I then use something to raise it?
Second...
If I evaporate all the water with hcl, then add distiled water to the "goo" .. would the PH automacticaly come to 6 or 7 ?
Another thing, is it extremly necessary to simmer it?

Thank you very much for your atention.

Kind regards,
Ingo


[This message has been edited by Ingo Christian Meyer (edited 15 November 2000).]


meteor
Curandero posted 16 November 2000 12:36 AM
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quote:
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Originally posted by Ingo Christian Meyer:
Thank you for your reply meteor.
But I still do have some questions...
First...
Wouldn't it be a problem to have a too low PH , like 2 or 3 ? Shouldn't I then use something to raise it?
Second...
If I evaporate all the water with hcl, then add distiled water to the "goo" .. would the PH automacticaly come to 6 or 7 ?
Another thing, is it extremly necessary to simmer it?

Thank you very much for your atention.

Kind regards,
Ingo

[This message has been edited by Ingo Christian Meyer (edited 15 November 2000).]


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Ingo

Your first question.

If you do not evaporate completely the HCl concentration will rise as the water first evaporates. HCl evaporates last with the concentration rising all the way up to the max at the very end. (This would give you a pH of 2 or less in the final stages).

Your second question.

If you evaporate completely, it will be a dry material and the HCl will have evaporated, too.

The pH for a tea reconstituted from this dry material will be 6 to 7. So, there will be no need to add buffering compounds to the resulting brew.

Third question.

A mild simmering for about 1/2 hour and a soak for a few hours on the first boiling extracts most of the compounds.

The next 2 simmerings will have significantly less extract, but it is worth while to go through these steps anyway.

(legal unless prohibited by local law)



don
Member posted 16 November 2000 02:32 AM
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Correct me if I am wrong, but was I under a delusion in thinking that considering that the boiling point of HCL is 142F (as from the product info) and the boiling point of water 212......that by boiling while cooking the acid would be going off long before the water, and would be gone by the time it had simmered down to its finished strength.

vox ovox
Member posted 16 November 2000 02:48 AM
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thats a damn good question don.i have dreamed of consuming without cooking down to powder,or baking soda,wasnt a problem for me.during the purge in this dream i noticed that when coming up it didnt pucker out my entire throat and mouth,didnt even really notice the usual bile off the stomach taste either.different strokes for different folks,all i know is somebody should send sync
a thanksgiving turkey in the mail for initiating this topic.

meteor
Curandero posted 16 November 2000 04:50 AM
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Yes, the boiling point of HCl is 142 deg F in its pure form (whatever that is, as it is either a liquid or a gas and when in liquid form it is bonded to H2O).
HCl has a very, very strong afinity for water, so much so that it does not boil off first as does methyl or ethyl alcohol when combined with water. It forms, as I remember reading, an azetrope (sp) with water. To get it to boil at 142 deg F one would first have to de-humidfy it to its highest natural concentration, about 41%. And since there is no such thing as *pure* HCl and it is always bonded to water in its commercial, or reagent form, excess water created by dilution has to be boiled away first.

Then as the concentration of HCl to water increases the boiling point will fall to the 142 d F.

You will find that as reduction boiling progresses to the final stages the pH of the solution drops to very low levels, 3 or less. This is because the amount of acid is only 10 to 20 drops per/250ml of water, and this will remain until the solution reaches its 41% concentration of HCl.

And if one takes a whiff of the extract just before it completely dries they will get a strong nosefull of HCl gas-- almost as strong as if taking a whiff of the bottled acid itself. (Don't do it!)

Only when the extract is completely dry does the acid leave.


[This message has been edited by meteor (edited 16 November 2000).]


remoohrs
Member posted 16 November 2000 05:59 PM
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well if ya'll have tried it with simmering and it still works, then it works. simple as that.(nothing's simple i know...exaggeration)
another question:
when boiling, does this produce HCL laden steam in addition do the water? and if so.....i reckon you'd have to open the windows?

or does the amount used make this risk neglible? if there is a risk? does HCL gas have corrosive/harmful effects?


fractanimist
Initiate posted 16 November 2000 06:02 PM
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yesterday I had a dream that I made an extract of caapi and an extract of chaliponga using HCl. As usual I boiled each seperately for 20 minutes, three times each. I then boiled the two teas down to sludge and set them in the oven at 150 degrees. In my dream it took a few hours to completely dry and it was very apparent that the water evaporates before the HCl because as Meteor said a good whif of the material was like a whif straight from the bottle (feels like your nose hairs are burning!) It is very reassuring to me that when the material is completely dry there is no trace of HCl. I personally would not dream without dehydrating first. I'll let you know how it goes.

Ingo Christian Meyer
Member posted 16 November 2000 07:20 PM
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Thank you again meteor...
Still have some questions though...
I bought something called "PH reducer" and it is 36% hcl and 64%vehicle(?).
Let me know if I 'm right...
15-20 drops per 250ml water.. simmer down for 30 min.. let one night still.. another 2 simmerings for 30min. , take out the plant material and evaporate it...
My questions...
Should I use destiled water or is not necessary?
Will the alkaloids be extracted likewise if I have a too low PH(like 2 - 3 )? or should it be , at least an amount of time at 4.5 - 5 ?
The problem of boiling it instead of simmering it down would be only that the PH would reduce more, since a bit of water would evaporate?
These is the last one, I promisse, I'm sorry for my ignorance...

ps: the PH paper I have here can only check if the water is below , above or at seven.. so I can't be very certain on the PH



meteor
Curandero posted 16 November 2000 09:23 PM
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To answer the above questions all at once:
In boiling down very little if any HCl is released in the steam. (The nose is very sensitive to HCl and you can verify this by smelling the steam as it comes off the acidified brew)

It is only until it reaches the highest concentration of 30 to 41% that the HCl begins to evaporate, and this is the point when the boiling temp drops to 141 d F.

For the purposes at hand, that amounts to the last few ml of solution. And this is best dried in an oven or in the open air.

The HCl gas that evaporates out is not harmful, and you will not even notice it. However, do not do this last stage in anything but a glass or ceramic vessel-- just as you would in the boiling, soaking phase.

With regards to Ingo's questions. Your, HCl pH reducer should have the 64% as water. (What is the brand? Tell us about it). If you simmer for a while and let at least the first boiling sit overnight nearly all of the actives are extracted. The remaining two boilings (30 min) retrieve a fraction of what the first extraction pulls out. And unless your local water is very hard (high in calcium) the use of distilled is not required. And with regards to the amount of HCl added the harder the water the greater amount that is added. Distilled usually takes about 10-15 drops of 31% HCl and really hard tap water 20 drops. But if you add a bit more it will not hurt the brew or you if you evaporate it off in the final stage.

Dry completely and all the HCl that was in the brew will evaporate leaving only the natrual acids and actives found in the original plant material. The pH of these will be between 6 - 7.

So you don't have to worry about testing the pH when reconstituted to make the final tea.


[This message has been edited by meteor (edited 17 November 2000).]


Ingo Christian Meyer
Member posted 17 November 2000 01:03 AM
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Thank you again meteor, I really appreciate your kindness.
The label is : "Hidro PH -" from "hidroall"
but it's a national product(brazilian).
It is intended to lower swiming pools PH..
Kind regards



Sync
Member posted 20 November 2000 10:43 PM
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Possible short story;
Person brews tea with hcl method.
Tea is dehydrated to powder, leaving “ayahuasca hcl.”
Tea is re-hydrated
Baking soda is added to tea.
Tea is heated carefully, hcl salts become “unhooked” and turn to freebase.
Freebase is no longer water-soluble
Freebase ayahuasca bonded to baking soda floats to top of pot as it cools and forms a crust.
Crust is scooped off and dried.
Ayahuasca smoke is born.


don
Member posted 21 November 2000 12:15 AM
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In theory it sounds good, but can maoi's be smoked and have any effect. If not you may get a very short acting dmt experience from it, but if maois can't be smoked thats all you will get. Also (and this is just my opinion) the more you get into all of this extraction,drying and smoking the farther you are getting from the truth of ayahuasca, its meant to be drunk, its meant to taste the way it does, its also meant to make you purge. Its like trying to improve on something that is already perfect. I'm sure this is how something as useful to the local population as coca leaves were turned into cocaine, then evolved into crack, and I don't think that was what I would consider an improvement.

Sync
Member posted 21 November 2000 04:55 AM
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Actually, Don, I think your right. It was a bad idea. Thing is, I just want to know this spirit as completely as possible, in all its forms and variations. It is a labor of love to fully explore such a gift.

meteor
Curandero posted 21 November 2000 05:42 AM
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Yes,
The spirits tell me that Ayahuasca cannot be refined-- it is more than the sum of its parts. It is the synergy of all that comprises it that makes it what it is.

It was revealed to me by a dreamer that the HCl method with complete drying and re-constitution is as close to Ayahuasca purity as one can get.

The dreamer told me that there is no difference in taste between a straight water extraction and water enhanced with HCl, evaporated then re-mixed.

The advantages of the latter is that it is much, much more effective than other organic acid methods, and if dried it leaves a pure residue that does not lose its spiritual fullness. All that is the essence of Ayahuasca is there, the taste, the purge, and all that comes and goes with it.

And as Sync's friend pointed out to him in the very first post of this thread, "there was an electric quality to it... this is what Ayahuasca is and should be."

Pure, plain and simple.
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Compared to the Infinite we know next to nothing....
What good we do with what little we do know is the key to Wisdom....



vox ovox
Member posted 21 November 2000 01:43 PM
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amen brothers,amen

By Hippie3 (Hippie3) on Monday, April 30, 2001 - 01:04 pm: Edit

Topic: Cadillac brewing
Sync
Member posted 18 December 2000 05:51 PM
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In a dream the spirit of ayahuasca appears as a jaguar sipping tea through a straw. It smiles a Cheshire cat smile when asked the best way to make tea. “Lookie here monkey brain” It says with affection. “You all confused about the this and the that of it, so I’m gonna lay down the Cadillac brewing for you. Now I’m a modern cool cat as well as jungle hunter hip feline who says use the best of what you got wherever you are.” “Huh?” I said.
“Get with the program, my man. If your gonna do it, do it right.” She purred as visions of rainbow snakes dancing with angels punctuated her thoughts.
“Here’s the thing, show some respect for what your doin, throw away your T shirt and coffee filters, unplug your fridge, and stop confusin yourself.”
“Huh?” I said.
“Thing is..” She said, “we spirits got technology that makes human understanding look dinosaur, so don’t be afraid to use the best of what you got. Now, we told you about the HCL, you used it, and found out it was no lie. So here’s the next step out of the darkness into the swirling rainbow colored lights. Vacuum filtration.”
“Huh?” I said. “Sounds complicated and expensive!”
“Easier than what you been doin, cost you about fifty bucks.” She said transforming into a maiden of heavenly beauty.
“Fifty bucks!” I objected.
“If you’re committed to this path it’s a small expense, stop staring at my breasts and pay attention.” She said.
“Buy a filter flask from someplace like ebay. It’s a glass flask with a connection that hooks to a vacuum source. Go to a chem supply place and buy a funnel filter and the seal that goes between the filter and the flask. The funnel filter is a large plastic funnel with a very fine permanent filter in it made to filter out very very fine particulate. The filter gets put on top of the flask. The tea goes in the filter. Vacuum applied to the flask sucks the tea through the filter funnel into the bottom of the flask, leaving an outlandishly pure tea.”
“What does this have to do with brewing, besides, I don’t have a vacuum source.” I objected.
“You suck.” She said.
“Gee, I’m sorry, I am trying to improve myself.” I said apologetically.
“With your lips, silly. You hook a plastic tube to the flask and use your lips.”
“Oh.” I said sheepishly. The maiden morphed into the first shaman and pointed the first iron bone at me.
“Dilute one part hcl in three parts water. Add a half-teaspoon dash of that to a few cups of water and boil your powdered plant material in it for 15 min. Vacuum filter. Dump the contents of the filter back into fresh hcl water and do it again. Boil and filter for a third time. Toss the mash, it’s done. Empty the flask into a glass pot, evaporate to dryness, or drink.” He said pulling out my femur and replacing it with the iron bone.
“But that’s so easy, and the tea is so pure it probably won’t make me purge,” I objected. The shaman once more became the jaguar, which purred with humor at my objection.
“If you really need to, you will.” She said as she became the light, and the light laughed at me.



Xenonpill
Member posted 18 December 2000 08:35 PM
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Using your lips as a vacuum source may have style, but there is a device called an "aspirator" which attaches to your faucet, and pulls a nice vacuum, and they only cost about $15! available from most laboratory supply dealers.
Xenonpill


Jake
Member posted 19 December 2000 12:16 AM
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Sync,
That is the most entertaining post I have read on this board...
So, where can I get these things ?


Sync
Member posted 19 December 2000 12:27 AM
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Any chenical or lab supply place. Sometimes you can find them on ebay.

don
Member posted 19 December 2000 04:41 AM
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A really good source for a vacuum(and cheap too) would be one of those hand pumps for bicycle tires............just run it backwards!!!!!!!!

TIHKAL
Member posted 19 December 2000 05:31 AM
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you can also get all this stuf from botanical preservation corps...
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WE ARE ONE...


treehugger
Member posted 06 January 2001 03:30 PM
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I've found the water asperators don't have enough power. They work some of the time, but I have fallen into the practice of just grabbing the Kirby or a shop vac, using my hand to try to form an airtight seal on the filter flask. Two minutes of that usually does the job. The filters clog quickly from my experience. Honestly, I don't do this with ayahuasca. I still might use the t-shirt or cheese cloth, then only filter the liquid from that using a coffee filter in a large bushner funnel, followed by a fine filter in a smaller bushner if you thought it was really necessary.

don
Member posted 06 January 2001 07:15 PM
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Something one may find at surplus stores or flea markets are the old suction pumps they used in the hospitals years back, these things can really get a vacuum going if you reset the calibration on them (easy to do). I've seen them for sale on a couple of occasions. If anyone does score one of these make sure you give it a good cleaning externaly and internally with a strong solution of bleach and water, then throw out and replace all the plastic tubing(with a tubing made for a vacuum) A person could try a lot of intersting stuff with one of these. How about a 3hr low boil then straight to a complete vacuum for about 12 hrs, then do your funnel filtering?? When I go back to work on Tue. I'm going to make a trip down to the basement go to stores and supplies and see if they have any of these left that they may part with.

rkymtndreamer
Initiate posted 09 January 2001 04:39 PM
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Ran into this site a while back, has just about any type of glassware an organic chemist would need.
http://www.oocities.org/CapeCanaveral/Lab/4444/