Interview with N____, Central Executive
Committee Member of the All Japan Federation of Buraku Liberation Movement (Zenkairen).
Conducted
on the 10th of August 2000 at Zenkairen Headquarters, Tokyo.
Translated from Japanese by Ian Laidlaw.
I - Ian Laidlaw
N – N____
Interview Begins
I: My Japanese isn’t very good so it may
take me some time to explain what I want to know. What I would firstly like to know is what the Zenkairen
is, and how many members it has. Also,
What is the current purpose of the Zenkairen, and where is it going to
be in the future, or what will it become.
Then, what has it achieved up until now, and what problems has it
faced. What is the opinion about the Buraku
Liberation League [BLL]. What are the
good and bad points about the BLL in your opinion. And what do you think of the kyûdan [denunciation
sessions].
N: Yes, yes.
I: That is what I am interested in.
N: Okay.
I: Firstly though, I am not familiar
with the Zenkairen, so could you please tell me more about what kind of
organisation it is.
N: Can you read Japanese characters?
I: Sorry?
N: Are you able to read Japanese text?
I: I can read it slowly, if I have a
dictionary.
N: Ah.
I: I find Kanji quite difficult to read.
N: Okay. This is [the address of] our homepage.
I: Thank you very much.
N: When you go back to your country, please read this.
I: Okay.
N: In the 31 cities, towns and prefectures there are 80,000 [members of the Zenkairen].
I: 80,000?
N: 80,000, in the 31 cities, towns and prefectures, 80,000.
I: Okay, that is a lot.
N: Then, with regard to our purpose, I will give you our rules, so please read them later.
I: Yes, I understand.
N: Stating it simply, we are trying to solve Japan’s Buraku issue. The problem is with how to achieve that solution.
I: Yes.
N: It is a problem of how to solve it, and in Japanese it is [an issue of] national unity. I am using the term ‘national unity’ because it is not the case that the Buraku people have differences in race, nationality, religion or language, as they are the same Japanese people. They are not a minority. They are the same Japanese people. Since they are the same Japanese people, the best thing would be if we could live together in harmony. That is what ‘national unity’ is. In that way we want to solve the Buraku problem, that is our purpose.
I: Okay.
N: So, that is written in the second section of out rules, which I will give to you, so please read it carefully later.
I: Thank you, I will.
N: Then the third thing is what have we achieved so far? What we have achieved up until now. For that we will look at how the circumstances of the Buraku people have changed. The conditions of Buraku some time ago were that they were very cramped and housed many people in untidy houses. Furthermore, the sanitation was bad, there was no water supply, they did not have jobs and the level of education was low. So a major part of what we achieved is the improvement of the poor conditions that the Buraku people were in, improvement of their environment. Improving their educational circumstances so that everybody is able to study. That is the central part of what we have done.
Another thing is that since the Buraku problem is not a racial problem, then it is not really a problem. So we have been helping mainstream people to understand that because the Buraku people are the same Japanese people, then we should obviously be able to come together naturally. That has been necessary. Those two things are what we have concentrated on doing.
For that purpose we have released this organisational document and have given it to many people to read. We have released books for people to read. Also, we have made the government introduce policies to make it their responsibility to spend money and work to improve the bad conditions of the areas. That is what we have chiefly been doing.
However, two big problems emerged during that process. One of them was that the BLL changed and became an antidemocratic and anti-human-rights group. The other problem was that the improvement of the Buraku environment and lifestyle progressed and now most of the bad conditions surrounding the Buraku areas have disappeared. Therefore the recent topic has become how to remove the negative influences that have been created by the antidemocratic and anti-human-rights group, the BLL.
Another problem is that, within the solving of most of the Buraku issues, how will we return the favour to the nation for the improvements to date. These have come to be the two main topics in recent times. I don’t know whether you know this or not, but we used to be part of the BLL.
I: Oh, really?
N: At the end of the 50’s, about 40 years ago now, their direction changed so…
I: Oh yes, I have heard about that.
N: So, the government at the time established the Dowa Countermeasures Enterprises, there are various other reasons as well, but the direction changed and the result was that we broke off and formed our own group, the Zenkairen, to pursue our activities. So, during out 40 years of activities, the Buraku have changed to a great extent. Regardless of this, however, the BLL has is still performing antidemocratically and contrary to human rights. Consequently, the direction of the Zenkairen for the 21st century will be how to remove the negative influences of the BLL and since the understanding of the nation has improved, we are now trying to find out how to continue the activities that have resulted in improvements in the areas in which we live.
The 3rd or fourth thing that you are wanting to know, how we see the BLL, what way is the best way to put it?
I: Feel free to say anything you want
to.
N: The true nature of the BLL has not varied too much from ours, but they have completely changed really – it is quite hard to put it properly. There are 2 reasons why we split off from the BLL and formed out own individual organisation. One is that our views on how we saw the Dowa Countermeasures Enterprises that started in 1960 differed. We thought that it was extremely good for improving the environment of the Buraku areas, but we said that we should not swallow it whole because within it we saw poison. That is one reason. The other reason is that in the national elections, the upper house elections, I wonder if you know Matsumoto Ji’ichirô?
I: Ah, yes I know of him.
N: The BLL recommended him, but he was a member of the old Japan Socialist Party [JSP], which is now called the Social Democratic Party, and recommending a person from a specific political party is not good for a social organisation. Many members of the BLL believed that [choosing] which political party to support was according to the freedom of the individual and that deciding [as an organisation] was not good, so they opposed [his recommendation]. We were forced out against our will by sheer strength. We were separated. Those are the two reasons.
Also, within the results of the 30 or more years of Dowa Countermeasures Enterprises, the opinions of both the LDP, who have been in power, and the Zenkairen concerning the Dowa Countermeasures Enterprises have mostly been in agreement. More accurately speaking, the BLL have been isolated.
However, after that the BLL supported various different [parties], and now they support the Democratic Party and they support the Social Democratic Party and the LDP, and the Conservative Party, and the Justice Party. So they have expanded and they now support any party. In other words, they have been caught up in the framework of political power.
The Dowa Countermeasures Enterprises have already finished to a large extent so it would not be an issue if we disagreed with the opinion of the LDP, but they are creating new policies under the pretext of human rights that will delay a solution to the Buraku problem. They are getting in the way of the solution. We are currently opposed to that. Therefore, our opinion in general is that the BLL, by forever using political power and by adopting the party in power at the time, they are becoming a group that are pursuing for their own gains.
Something that we have not failed to overlook is in relation to your last question about kyûdan. By using kyûdan, Buraku people and mainstream people are being estranged from one-another, forced into conflict, and hostility is being created. Because it is fulfilling that function, it is getting in the way of a solution to the Buraku problem. It is getting in the way. Consequently, we are making an effort to contain the expansion of their influence. That is generally how it is.
I: It seems that IMADR [International
Movement Against All Forms of Discrimination and Racism] has a similar opinion
to the Zenkairen on that. I am
surprised to find that out.
N: Really? IMADR has a similar opinion? Hmmm.
I: The next thing I would like to know
is related to IMADR. IMADR wanted the Zenkairen
to become a member sometime in the last 10 years, I’m not sure exactly when,
but the Zenkairen was opposed to that.
Can you tell me why?
N: IMADR was created in 1988, and then in 1989 they applied to the UN to be registered as an NGO. At that time we did not believe that IMADR met the conditions that the UN had decided that an NGO [applicant] had to meet, so we sent a letter asking them not to authorise their application. At that time, in January 1989, the Zenkairen received a letter from IMADR, asking us if we would become a member. A letter came.
I: Yes, I have heard about that.
N: You know quite a lot. We declined. As to why we declined, we saw two problems within the letter that was sent to the UN. The first one was that an NGO is comprised of an organisation that encompasses a number of countries. Furthermore, it has been decided that within that, a group that whose policies are based on government funding should not be accepted. IMADR comprises about 12 or 13 groups including the BLL, Korean residents of Japan groups, the Utari Association, and MRAP, which is a gypsy organisation in France and Germany. Those groups are the central groups, but it was mostly funded by government finances through the BLL.
There is one other problem. The other problem is that the central group, the BLL, brandishes violence in the form of kyûdan, so we insisted that a group that uses violence cannot be regarded as a human rights group. We sent a letter regarding that second issue to the UN. Then we got the letter from IMADR asking if we would enter [their organisation], even though second problem was not resolved. We told them that we had no interest in joining. Furthermore, the Japanese Buraku problem is not an international problem, it is an internal Japanese problem, so there is no need to create an international NGO to solve the Buraku problem. That was our decision.
I: Of course.
N: For that reason we did not enter IMADR, and we sent a letter to the UN to tell them not to accept IMADR as an NGO.
I: I understand. It did not appear that the person I spoke to
from IMADR really knew that.
N: Oh really?
I: They said that the Zenkairen
were against it, but they did not say much else about it.
N: Oh, of course.
I: I understand. Okay, so the next thing is, Human Rights
Education has been appearing lately. It
appears that the Ministry of Education doesn’t really like that, am I right?
N: That is not the case.
I: Do you think so?
N: Yes, the Ministry of Education is running Human Rights Education.
I: They are?
N: Yes.
I: What kind of Human Rights Education?
N: We do not support the Human Rights Education that is being run by the Ministry of Education, but they are running it. However…
I: The BLL wants to create a Human
Rights Education law don’t they. The
Japanese government does not really want to though. I do not know about the position of the Ministry of Education on
that.
N: That is not the case though. Have you spoken about it to the Ministry of Internal Affairs, the Ministry of Education or the Ministry of Justice?
I: I went to ask the Ministry of
Education about it, but they would not give me an interview.
N: There is a primary school section in the Ministry of Education. It is called the Department of Primary Education. This is a small book, but these are the Ministry of Education’s policies.
I: Do you have it in English?
N: Yes. This is what the Ministry of Education is running. Your impression and my impression as to whether or not they are earnest are probably different though, from what is [written] in here. The Ministry of Education says that this education to change and increase the national understanding of human rights is Human Rights Education. They are encouraging regional schools to study social education and that kind of education. However, we do not have the same opinion as the Ministry of Education. Do you know of the UN’s 10 year Human Rights Education project?
I: Human rights…?
N: The UN’s Decade for Human Rights. The UN’s resolution was made in December, 1994.
I: Yes, I know about that.
N: You know? The UN’s Decade for Human Rights? As to what Human Rights Education is, they say that, according to those regulations, education is human rights. Education is human rights. Education equals human rights. In other words, our opinion is that because education is human rights…in other words, as everybody is the sovereign over how they live their lives…in other words, how can I put it?
It is everybody’s right to build the knowledge and ability to be able to live their lives as they want to, that is the right of the people. It is the responsibility of the government to guarantee that right. Therefore, the most important aspect of Human Rights Education is to show how to create that provision. That is in the middle of being corrected. That problem is still unresolved. The government and various students say that Human Rights Education is about teaching that it is wrong to discriminate against Buraku people, it is wrong to discriminate against handicapped people, it is wrong to discriminate against foreigners and it is wrong to discriminate against Christians, but the Zenkairen think that they are mistaken. True Human Rights Education teaches people how to build for themselves the necessary knowledge and abilities so that they are able to live. For example, right now in Japan there are about 40 students to every one teacher. What is it in New Zealand?
I: About 28 I think.
N: Yes, America is about 25. In Japan, in a country of leadership advancement [senshin-shôshin-koku], we have the highest numbers of students. Because of that, the teachers help is not distributed. Therefore, the numbers of students must be decreased and the numbers of teachers increased and trivial study must not be conducted.
I: When I spoke to a Dowa educator at
Naniwa BLL, he said that the thing he most wanted was to decrease the numbers
of students down from 40 students to one teacher to 30 students [to one
teacher].
N: Yes, yes.
I: Has the Zenkairen created any
programs of education?
N: Yes, we want things like, for example, the numbers of students decreased to 30 per class, but the groups who chiefly try to achieve that are educational groups. It would not be very good if the Zenkairen rushed in with those people and produced educational policies. There are various circles and groups that are education related, along with teachers’ groups. There are also many groups that are related to students. I think that we are cooperating with those kinds of groups to improve education.
I: Okay. The Japanese Communist Party [JCP] mentioned that too.
N: Oh really?
I: I think that it is good.
N: Yes.
I: Recently I read a book by, I have
forgotten his name, Suginohara Jyûichiro?
N: Jyûichi.
I: Ah, yes. Suginohara Jyûichi, he wrote a book, which I borrowed from the
BLL. In there he said that there is no
longer any need for the BLL to exist and that it would be better to do away
with it. As to why that is, he said
that the BLL’s current actions are actually creating some discrimination. The Buraku housing and the lifestyles of the
Buraku people have come to be on a similar level to the average Japanese, but
with a little more action they would become better.
N: Reverse discrimination.
I: Yes.
Reverse discrimination. What is
your opinion on that?
N: I agree with the opinion of Suginohara-sensei.
I: You agree?
N: Yes. The levels have become equal, so that is okay. If they increase [so that the Buraku levels are above those of the average Japanese] then that is bad.
I: So you have the same opinion.
N: The same opinion.
I: So would it be better to do away with
the BLL?
N: I think it would be good if they ceased to exist, but the people who are members of the BLL are average residents. It is not the case that they are bad. They are the same people as we are, but it is by chance that we are the Zenkairen, and they are the BLL. They are not bad. So it would be good if it ceased to exist, but I don’t think it should be crushed.
I: So in the future, since everybody is
living in similar ways, and the future purposes of the Zenkairen and the
BLL are quite similar, would the two organisations join together?
N: No.
I: There are Buraku that are not
identified as being Dowa areas. A Tokyo
BLL person said that that is the most important current issue, to fix those
areas. Is there anything that the Zenkairen
thinks should be done about the non-Dowa Buraku?
N: What you are saying, in short, is not related to the average towns and centres, but the Buraku that have not been designated as Dowa areas. In the places that have been designated as Dowa areas, they are the subject of the Dowa Countermeasures Enterprises. The BLL and IMADR say that the problem of the Buraku that have not been designated as Dowa areas is a big problem. Do you understand?
So, if you delve deeply into the question of why they have not been designated, then you will find that the residents do not want [to be designated as] Dowa. They do not want to be designated. The Buraku problem is an old problem, so they do not always want to be called Dowa. We are Japanese people, not Dowa. There are a great many of those kinds of places. There are occasions where it would interfere with a solution to the Buraku problem to go to the trouble of making them Dowa areas.
It is possible to improve those places with normal measures without resorting to designating them as Dowa areas. Even without special policies, the current Japanese government has sufficient ability to be able to fix the roads, put in waterways, install electricity, put in drainage, fix housing and make children go to school. That would be sufficient. It would be comparatively extremely bad to go to the trouble of saying to those people, “your place is a Dowa area”, against their will. We in the Zenkairen think that it is necessary to improve the environment of those non-Dowa [areas], but we are opposed to going to the trouble of making them into Dowa areas. It would be okay if those residents said that they wanted to, but it is not necessary for those who are opposed to it.
I: I understand. That is what I thought.
N: Yes, yes, if you don’t look into it accurately, then you will not understand.
I: I agree, yes. I understand. Is it the opinion of the Zenkairen that discrimination is
created by the government rather than by society?
N: With some irony, I have to say that it is my opinion the human rights movement is quite popular right now in Japan. So when we think about discrimination, we must think of the character of discrimination otherwise we will not find a proper resolution. For example, Buraku discrimination is a prejudice that occurs within that Japanese race. So as long as we can correct misunderstandings then we can resolve this problem. But, in terms of discrimination against women, handicapped people, people of different races, and foreigners, there is an attitude that people want to exclude these people because they are different from themselves. Women will always be women. Foreigners will always be foreigners. It is important to understand the difference or we will not be able to have a solution. The Zenkairen does not have exactly the same opinion as Suginohara, but people have a prejudice nature.
We think that, among citizens, there is such an idea of discriminating against other people, so I would not say that discrimination is only created by the government. If you think about it carefully, in Japan there is racial discrimination, discrimination against handicapped people, sexual discrimination – for instance women’s salaries are only 60% of men’s in private companies. The government was indifferent about those enterprises’ practices. Members of the JCP were usually excluded from those private corporations. They were not promoted and always had low salaries, they were discriminated against. For instance, in Tokyo Electricity, they always do that kind of thing. However, there are cases where the Japanese courts have said that that is not illegal.
Therefore, much of the discrimination that occurs within the nation is sustained due to the actions of the government. In that way, what Suginohara said was completely correct. However, all Japanese people have a responsibility to eliminate discrimination, but that is a slightly different issue.
I: When I first read that I thought it
was wrong, but after I have spoken to many people, I have come to
understand. That is interesting. If the government or the Ministry of
Education or someone like that said that they would give the Zenkairen any
one thing you wanted, what would that be?
N: If the government said they would give us anything?
I: Yes, a law or money or whatever. So what does the Zenkairen want most
want right now?
N: What we want is the conditions so that citizens can act freely. For instance, so that NGOs could have the right to speak freely. It would be good if we could have a printing company that could print out the opinions of the NGOs to their members. So we need a guarantee that whatever kind of legally legitimate actions we take, we would not be suppressed or punished by the police. So the number one thing we want is the freedom of action of citizens and groups.
I: That is most of what I wanted to
know. So is there anything else you
want to say? I don’t know too much
about the Zenkairen.
N: There is just one thing. It is a little difficult though. For example, in New Zealand is there a organisation to protect the rights of indigenous people?
I: I don’t think that there is anything
quite like the Zenkairen, but there are governmental groups like the Waitangi
Tribunal.
N: Right now the Japanese government is trying to create an organisation to protect human rights. They are still in discussion and so it is not established yet. It will take another two years. The Zenkairen are doubtful about this. They say that they will be protecting the human rights of the Ainu, women, handicapped, Buraku, HIV victims and Foreigners. They say that they will create such an organisation. The government and the large enterprises are the ones that created discrimination against these people. Now the government wants to resolve the problem that they themselves created, and that is very contradictory. The real purpose is not as they said to protect human rights, but rather to spy on the citizens. As a result, they will not protect human rights. They will be limiting human rights.
When we try to get foreign people to understand about the Buraku issue the important thing is to get them to understand that it is not a racial problem. For example, there is the organisation IMADR, which is the International Movement Against All Forms of Discrimination and Racism, but there is no racism in Japan. Foreign countries commonly have their own racial problems so they tend to think that the Buraku problem is such a problem, but if they think in that way then they will have a misunderstanding. So we think that it is not necessary to have a anti-racism-oriented organisation within Japan.
So what I mentioned earlier about the human rights problems that the government is going to deal with, they are actually using the Buraku problem. The problems of the elimination of Buraku discrimination and the improvement of Buraku environments are mostly already resolved. They make a pretext saying that there is still discrimination against Buraku, and that is where we have a doubt.
So please don’t mix up the Buraku problem with racial problems.
I: I did not realise that the government
was about to create an organisation.
Why are they going to create it?
N: The UN recommended that an NGO be created to protect human rights. The government wanted to use that recommendation to create its own organisation to do so. We do not know whether or not the organisation that they will create will protect Japanese people’s human rights.
I: I should probably look into that
more. Is there anything else you want
to say?
N: No, not really.
Interview Ends