Dear Manvantara Prabhu
Please accept my respectful obeisances.
All glories to Srila Prabhupada.
How's it going dude? Sorry it took so long to get back to you. My mind has been on so many things lately. By the way did you ever have a chance to take a look at the link I sent you some time ago about what's been happening with me and ISKCON recently?:
http://www.oocities.org/gauranga-prema/ISKCON-TRIAL.HTML
Aspiring to be the sincere
servant of the servant,
Yours Truly,
Gauranga Prema Dasa
Hare Krsna
On 23 Oct 2000, Manvantara Prabhu wrote:
> Hello!
> Dear prabhu
> PAMHO AGTSP. It's sadening to hear you are have problem still
> with your godbrothers. I was looking at you chart & it looks
> like during this Powerful Saturn dasa you're running you will
> be feeling alott of competitive energy since much energy is
> focused on the 6th house of competition & service & secret
> enemies. Jupiter in the 6th is a placement allot of Lawyers &
> Judges or people who are expert enemies. The Ketu sub dasa you
> are running in the 7th house can cause physical trouble. It is
> recommended in the Brihat Parasara Hora Sastra to give in
> charity. Why don't you hook up with some other devotees like
> the IRM in New York or Kapendra Swami. It might no be healthy
> or good association to keep trying to reform ISKCON all the time.
> With Regards
> Manvantara@teknett.com
On 25 Oct 2000, Gauranga Prema Dasa wrote:
Haribol. Got all your letters. Thanks. I really don't see how I could justify joining the IRM in lieu of the fact that they have yet to convince me that they are sure that Srila Prabhupada is the "current link" in the disciplic succession. Like I've often said: How do we know there isn't even a pot washer somewhere that isn't qualified like Srila Prabhupada was before nobody recognized him?
On 25 Oct 2000, Manvantara Prabhu wrote:
Dear Prabhu
> You have a point there. I don't want to open up a can of worms here but
> we already have Srila Prabhupada & the Divine teachings he has given us. Why
> should we travel the world looking for pot washers? Better to just bring
> people in to him & his instructions. This is what he wanted anyway. Now I'm
> sure after seeing the July 9th letter from him written shortly before he
> passed on & talking to personal servant Gauri das & Yasodanda Swami who both
> have eyewitness information. I just talked to my old buddy Jayarisi & he
> tells me Kirtananda told him that "Srila Prabhupada wanted Ritvik" on the
> phone. That makes 3 or 4 of the Chozen 11 Ritvik Gurus who've admitted this.
> Tamal admitted it ( Topanga Canyon Talks), Hamsaduta, Ramesvara & now
> Kirtananda Swami. I think we've tried enough posers & pot washers, and now
> it's time to follow SPs instructions. I'm not saying there can't be other
> qualified links & I don't think that IRM's position either. However SP is
> the real Guru of ISKCON & is still available to those worthy. The door to
> forgiveness is always open.
> With Regards
> manvantara@teknett.com
On 26 Oct 2000, Gauranga Prema Dasa wrote:
Dear Manvantara Prabhu
Please accept my respectful obeisances.
All glories to Srila Prabhupada.
I still consider you one of the best friends I have, however although Srila Prabhupada did instruct us to ordinarily be very meek and humble, he also once said in the same breath that when speaking on a point of philosophy a vaisnava does not observe the usual etiquette, that in the material world unpalatable truths should be very carefully avoided. As you probably already know, he said that when speaking on a point of philosophy a vaisnava speaks only the truth (satyam) even though it may not necessarily be priyam (palatable). So in that spirit I have responded to your latest letter by typing my responses to each of your assertions below:
On 25 Oct 2000, Manvantara Prabhu wrote:
Dear Prabhu
> You have a point there. I don't want to open up a can of worms here but
> we already have Srila Prabhupada & the Divine teachings he has given us. Why
> should we travel the world looking for pot washers?
Srila Prabhupada instructed us to seek out the "current link." This instruction is in the Srimad-Bhagavatam.
> Better to just bring
people in to him & his instructions. This is what he wanted
> anyway. Now I'm
sure after seeing the July 9th letter from him written shortly
> before he
passed on & talking to personal servant Gauri das & Yasodanda
> Swami who both
have eyewitness information.
Read it and spoke to both of them.
> I just talked to my old buddy Jayarisi & he
tells me Kirtananda told him that "Srila Prabhupada wanted
> Ritvik" on the
phone. That makes 3 or 4 of the Chozen 11 Ritvik Gurus who've
> admitted this.
Tamal admitted it ( Topanga Canyon Talks), Hamsaduta, Ramesvara &
> now
Kirtananda Swami. I think we've tried enough posers & pot
> washers, and now
it's time to follow SPs instructions. I'm not saying there can't
> be other
qualified links & I don't think that IRM's position either.
> However SP is
the real Guru of ISKCON & is still available to those worthy.
> The door to
forgiveness is always open.
Srila Prabhupada said he would appoint successors.
"On May 28th, 1977, the GBC delegation approached Srila Prabhupada with their questions, as he had instructed. The following is an excerpt from that conversation."
Prabhupada: And Caitanya Mahaprabhu says, amara ajnaya guru hana. One can understand the order of Caitanya Mahaprabhu, he can become guru. Or one who understands his guru's order, the same parampara, he can become guru. And therefore I shall select some of you.
Whether or not he has done that YET or not is the point of dispute. But, we must know that if he said he was going to do it nothing could stop that from happening. In the Caitanya-caritamrta he made it clear that many guru's are required to spread the Krsna Consciousness movement all over the world and that there is no difference between a qualified siksa and diksa guru, and we know that the importance of the "current link" must not be minimized. Another point is that in the Srimad-Bhagavatam Srila Prabhupada wrote that a spiritual master knowing the particular ability of an individual instructs him publicly, not privately that you are fit for such and such work in Krsna consciousness. One person is advised to work in the Deity department and another is advised to work in the editorial department etc...
With regards to what I should do and where I should go, I now know that it time for me to return to Hawaii. In the morning of October 24, 2000 shortly before I read the first set of letters you sent me this time, Srila Prabhupada appeared in a dream and instructed me to go to Hawaii and find somebody named Timothy in what sounded like Purcaton and to become an actor. One time when he appeared in a dream a long time ago he chastised me severely for not listening to him in the past. I'm definitely not going to make that mistake again this time.
By the way, Jaya Rsi is an old friend of mine as well. As a matter of fact I just lost his Pacific Beach phone number. If you know how I can contact him I wouldn't mind giveing him a call before I leave San-Diego on the Fourth of November. He is a very interesting personality. He once told me that I was Asvatthama. Think about it. I wouldn't doubt it.
You might also be interested to know that just this morning I had a vision of Lord Ganesha followed by a vision of a jet window. I've been following the news lately and it sure seems like a great time to get out of Dodge. It sure would be nice if you and your family could join me, that is if it's also your destiny to go back home, back to Hawaii.
Aspiring to be the sincere
servant of the servant,
Yours Truly,
Gauranga Prema Dasa
Hare Krsna
On 26 Oct 2000, Gauranga Prema Dasa wrote:
After speaking with several members of the ritvik camp I'm not satisfied that much, if any effort has been made to seek out a "current link." Therefore, I must conclude that the assumption has been made, primarily, if not exclusively on the basis of observations made of the GBC, that Srila Prabhupada is in fact the "current link." So one might wonder if another spiritual master were to come along how many people would just say that they don't have to listen to or accept him or her, because they already have a guru. Another interesting point is that Priyavrata had to follow the instructions of Lord Brahma, even though his diksa guru was Narada Muni. Just goes to show that the principal of guru is one. I figure that one easy way to resolve this ritvik issue is for everyone involved to simply approach any pure devotee, submit to his authority and accept whatever instruction he imparts regarding initiations or for that matter any any subject. Remember, Srila Vyasadeva is still on the planet. How many of us would really be willing to aspire for his divine association. And another thing, who really believes that Srila Prabhupada failed to even make one pure devotee? Of course I'm not claiming that all, if any of the one's currently accepting disciples are qualified, but I do know that if we follow Srila Prabhupada's instructions on how to organize society via the varnasrama system, then automatically we will know who is who and what is what. And the way I figure it, the most important thing is the instruction of the spiritual master, rather than which one of the unlimited varieties of forms he happens to appear in.
Hare Krsna
On 27 Oct 2000, Gauranga Prema Dasa wrote:
Dear Manvantara Prabhu
Please accept my respectful obeisances.
All glories to Srila Prabhupada.
It's my test question for everyone who claims to have a connection with a bona fide spiritual master, whoever he or she might be, or whether or not their guru happens to be physically present. And that is, specifically how does the spiritual master want me to be engaged in Krsna's service? For example: Does he want me working in the editorial department, on the computer, or perhaps on some sort of battlefield; does he want me in Hawaii or India or maybe the Mainland? If they cannot find out the answers to these types of questions then I ask: What is the value of their so-called connection to the disciplic succession? You might also be interested to know that I have yet to find such an individual who even claims to know or have access to the answers of these types of questions although I have interviewed several "swami's," GBC's and various members of all the different parties (ie. ritviks, Narayana Maharaja followers, Tripurari Maharaja Followers etc.) "Srila" Bhaktipada and Krsna Balarama Swami did have some specific advice but as you can well imagine I would find it considerably difficult to verify their authenticity, if not impossible, to say the least.
Aspiring to be the sincere
servant of the servant,
Yours Truly,
Gauranga Prema Dasa
Hare Krsna
On 27 Oct 2000, Manvantara Prabhu wrote:
Dear Prabhu
> I think It is the primary duty of the disciple to be engaged in one of
> the processes. I have heard Sp has said something to the tune of he wants
> all his disciples to chant 16 rounds & follow the 4 regs. Basically that's
> it for the qualification of disciple but he say if you can do some service
> like for example book distribution that it's very auspicious. I would not
> worry to much about what kind of service for any one of the processes can
> give you perfection as stated. They used to tell me at the temple what is
> the use of chanting if I'm not doing any service for the temple. This is the
> Kanista attitude that thinks his service is better all the time according to
> the NofI.
With Regards
manvantara@teknett.com
On 1 Nov 2000, Gauranga Prema Dasa wrote:
Sorry it took so long for me to get back to you, but until now, I haven't had time to access the library internet at the times when it has been available to me.
As mentioned previously, I have already extensively analyzed these letters and much, if not all the information available out there on this subject of ritvik initiations, and my position still stands on all the points I've made.
Srila Prabhupada emphasizes the importance of seeking out the "current link" of the disciplic succession in the Srimad-Bhagavatam:
Srimad-Bhagavatam [Canto 2, Ch. 9 TEXT 7]
PURPORT
Srimad Bhagavatam is coming down in disciplic succession, and in order to receive the real message of Srimad Bhagavatam one should approach the current link, or spiritual master in the chain of disciplic succession. After being initiated by the proper spiritual master in that chain of succession one should engage himself in the discharge of tapasya in the execution of devotional service.
And by the way, what would be wrong with always seeking the guidance of pure devotees, whoever and wherever they may be?
With regards to your idea that finding out specifically what type of service we should be engaged in is not so important, please read the following quotes:
Siksamrta [Vol. 3] pg. 2538:
74-04 "You have analyzed that you are distressed because you are not given an engagement in Krsna consciousness. This observation is correct. Unless we are engaged with all our senses and intelligence in serving Krsna where is the question of Krsna consciousness? We are reading here in the evenings how in the fourth chapter of Bhagavad-gita Krsna has arranged for catur-varnyam, the division of four orders, whereby everyone has some engagement according to his personal propensity, his quality and work, and thus everyone can go back to Godhead while performing their work."
Srimad-Bhagavatam [Canto 3, Ch. 28 TEXT 2]
PURPORT
One should seek out a bona fide spiritual master and surrender unto him, for by inquiring from and worshiping him one can learn spiritual activities. As long as we have this material body there are various duties prescribed for us. Such duties are divided by a system of four social orders: brahmana, ksatriya, vaisya and sudra.
Siksamrta [Vol. 3] pg. 2542:
75-01 "If one is capable, then he should preach. On the whole our society should be divided into four divisions, but such divisions are not material. Just like Krsna belonged to the vaisya community but He is worshiped by the brahmanas."
SCIENCE OF SELF REALIZATION pg. 324:
In any society you can see that unless there are these four divisions, there will be chaos. It will not work properly. It will be Maya, and there will be disturbances.
Srimad-Bhagavatam [Canto 4, Ch. 24 TEXT 53]
PURPORT
In that discussion Ramananda Raya referred to the execution of varnasrama-dharma, and Lord Caitanya indicated (eho bahya) that the varnasrama-dharma was simply external. Lord Caitanya wanted to impress upon Ramananda Raya that simply by executing the duties of varnasrama-dharma one is not guaranteed liberation. Finally Ramananda Raya referred to the process of bhakti-yoga . . . The conclusion is that if one is serious about liberation, he should not only execute the occupational duties of varnasrama-dharma but should also engage in bhakti-yoga...
Srimad-Bhagavatam [Canto 1, Ch. 9 TEXT 26]
PURPORT
The varnas are so to speak classifications of different occupations, and asrama-dharma is gradual progress on the path of self realization. Both are interrelated, and one is dependent on the other.
Conversations With Srila Prabhupada Vol. 7 pg. 303:
Atreya Rsi: So in our movement the leaders must decide how every devotee and every resource is engaged properly.
Prabhupada: That is leadership. That is leadership, which man is fitted for which work.
Srimad-Bhagavatam [Canto 7, Ch. 11]
Summarization Of The Chapter:
One who follows the garbhadhana samskara system is actually twiceborn, but those who do not, who deviate from the principles of varnasrama-dharma are called dvija-bhandus. (CWSP Vol. 7 pg. 302: Srila Prabhupada: If need be he (a vaisnava) has to act as ksatriya or a sudra . . . but manage, for management the division must be there. CWSP pg. 300: Srila Prabhupada: in our society).
Bhagavad-gita [Ch. 3 TEXT 15]
PURPORT
Anything performed without the direction of the Vedas is called vikarma, or unauthorized, or sinful work.
Conversations With Srila Prabhupada [Vol. 7] pg. 302:
Srila Prabhupada: Vaisnava is transcendental. But for proper management of the material world one should be acting like a brahmana, one should be acting like a ksatriya. That is required. If need be he has to act as ksatriya or a sudra. It doesn't matter. But manage, for management the division must be there. Otherwise it will be mismanagement.
Conversations With Srila Prabhupada [Vol. 7] pg. 300:
Srila Prabhupada: For the management of affairs we require to divide. Those who are fit for management and protection, they should be trained as ksatriya . . . so in our society this division should be there.
Conversations With Srila Prabhupada [Vol. 7] pg. 301:
Srila Prabhupada: So everywhere, in each center this system should be introduced and there must be practical application of varnasrama. At the same time this program of devotional service.
Bhagavad-gita [Ch. 2 TEXT 31]
PURPORT
As long as one is not liberated, one has to perform the duties of that particular body in accordance with religious principles in order to achieve liberation.
Nectar of Devotion [Ch. 13] pg. 113:
SB 11.2.8: One should execute the prescribed duties of varna and asrama as long as one has not developed spontaneous attachment for hearing about my pastimes and activities. All of these things are recommended for persons who have not developed Krsna consciousness. . . . . But one who has already developed spontaneous attachment for Krsna does not require to execute the duties in the scriptures. (CWSP Vol. 7 pg. 300: Srila Prabhupada: For the management of affairs we require to divide. . . . . in our society. CWSP Vol. 7 pg. 302: Srila Prabhupada: Vaisnava is transcendental, but for proper management of the material world one should be acting like a brahmana, one should be acting like a ksatriya...)
Srimad-Bhagavatam [Canto 3, Ch. 22 TEXT 7]
PURPORT
The real fact is that a bona fide spiritual master knows the nature of a particular man and what sort of duties he can perform in Krsna consciousness, and he instructs him in that way. He instructs him through the ear, not privately but publicly. "You are fit for such and such work in Krsna consciousness. You can act in this way." One person is advised to act in Krsna consciousness by working in the deities room, another is advised to act in Krsna consciousness by performing editorial work, another is advised to do preaching work, and another is advised to carry out Krsna consciousness in the cooking department. There are different departments of activity in Krsna consciousness, and a spiritual master knowing the particular ability of a man trains him in such a way that by his tendency to act he becomes perfect. Bhagavad-gita makes it clear that one can attain the highest perfection of spiritual life by offering service according to his ability, just as Arjuna served Krsna by his ability in the military art. Arjuna offered his service as a military man and he became perfect. . . . . One who wants to be certain to achieve spiritual success must take instruction from the spiritual master as to what his particular function is. (SB 3.28.2 pp.: One should seek out a bona fide spiritual master and surrender unto him, for by inquiring from and worshiping him one can learn spiritual activities. As long as we have this material body there are various duties prescribed for us. Such duties are divided by a system of four social orders: brahmana, ksatriya, vaisya and sudra). CWSP Vol. 7 pg. 300: Srila Prabhupada: In our society. CWSP Vol. 7 pg. 302: Srila Prabhupada: This division should be there).
You really should check out my website:
Gauranga Prema's: "Varnasrama Manifesto"
http://www.oocities.org/gauranga-prema/index.html
It seems that it is due to lack of the extensive information on this subject that you have reached these conclusions you have been presenting to me. So, once again I humbly suggest you study the material I have posted on my website which deals extensively with the topic of Srila Prabhupada's instructions regarding specific practical service engagements.
SCIENCE OF SELF REALIZATION pg. 77:
Srila Prabhupada: The first requirement is that one become educated in spiritual life. Spiritual life is not something one can understand by a few minute's talk. There are many philosophy and theology books, but people are not interested in them. That is the difficulty. For instance the Srimad-Bhagavatam is a very long work, and if you try to read this book, it may take many days just to understand one line of it. The Bhagavatam describes God, the Absolute Truth, but people are not interested. And if, by chance someone becomes a little interested in spiritual life, he wants something immediate and cheap. Therefore he is cheated.
SCIENCE OF SELF REALIZATION pg. 69:
Srila Prabhupada: Yes. Of course to search out a guru is very nice, but if you want a cheap guru, or if you want to be cheated, then you will find many cheating gurus. But if you are sincere, you will find a sincere guru. Because people want everything very cheaply, they are cheated. . . . .
Reporter: What about the person who seriously wants to find spiritual life but who happens to finish up with the wrong guru?
Srila Prabhupada: If you simply want an ordinary education, you have to devote so much time, labor and understanding to it. Similarly, if you are going to take to spiritual life you must become serious.
Would you agree that the following quote indicates that Srila Prabhupada was indeed successful in making at least one pure devotee?
Caitanya-caritamrta [Madhya Lila, Ch. 6 Text 242]
PURPORT
Sometimes people are surprised to see young men and women take so seriously to the Krsna-consciousness movement. By giving up sinful activity-illicit sex, meat eating, intoxication and gambling, and strictly following the injuctions given by the spiritual master, they have become purified of all contamination.
Sometimes people from the ritvik camp tell me that they think there can be other siksa gurus but not diksa gurus, however the following quote obviously refutes that entire argument:
Caitanya-caritamrta [Madhya-lila, Ch. 8 TEXT 128]
PURPORT
If one becomes a guru, he is automatically a brahmana. Sometimes a caste guru says that ye krsna-tattva-vetta, sei guru haya means that one who is not a brahmana may become a siksa-guru or a vartma- pradarsaka-guru but not an initiator guru. According to such caste gurus, birth and family ties are considered foremost. However, the hereditary consideration is not acceptable to vaisnavas. The word guru is equally applicable to the vartma-pradarsaka-guru, the siksa-guru and diksa-guru. Unless we accept the principal enunciated by Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, this Krsna consciousness movement cannot spread all over the world.
Wouldn't this quote also seem to further emphasize the need for many gurus in order to spread the Krsna consciousness movement throughout the entire world?
Looking forward to your response.
Hare Krsna
On 27 Oct 2000, Manvantara Prabhu wrote:
Dear Prabhu
> You have some good points. But as I said there in no need to look for
> "current links". Sp is your link and is alive for you. I was supposed to
> get 2nd initiation from SP & the GBC tried to make me Kirtananda's disciple
> & told me they were appointed as Gurus. I was supposed to be initiated SP's
> disciple. I talked to Yasodanandana Swami about this & he said I should
> consider myself a SP disciple because this is how the initiations were
> supposed to be performed by SP's order. SP was asked about this on May 28th
> 77 & shortly before he left the planet on July 9th he gave his final order
> w/reference to this May 28th conversation. Attached is a copy of the letter.
> You might need to magnify this with an art prgm to read it. In another
> conversation w/Tamal shortly before he departed he stated that none of his
> men were qualified to be Gurus. We know this was true after seeing what
> happened to most all of them. We were all been Dooped by a rogue renegade
> GBC. SP is the GURU. Just read the invocation in the beginning of SB. More
> on this later...
> With Regards
> manvantara@teknett.com