> Hello!

> Dear Prabhu,

> Please read this article I got for Gauridas Pundit.. I know you have read
> much on this but you had better read further because you aren't getting it.
> SP lives forever in his divine instructions & the follower lives him. This
> is the invocation in the front of SB 1st page. He is the "current link" &
> still approachable through "vani".
> (Morning Walk Seattle 2/10/68)

> MADHUVISA: Is there any way for a Christian to do without the help of a
> Spiritual Master to reach spiritual sky through believing the words of Jesus
> Christ and trying to follow his teachings?

> SP: I don't follow?

> TAMAL: Can a Christian in this age, without a Spiritual Master, but by
> reading Bible, and following Jesus works, reach the-

> SP: When you read Bible, you follow the Spiritual Master. How can you say
> without? As soon as you read Bible, that means you are following the
> instruction of Jesus Christ. That means you are following the Spiritual
> Master. So where is the opportunity of being without Spiritual Master?

> MADHUDVISA: I was referring to a living Spiritual Master.

> SP: Spiritual Master is not a question of...Spiritual Master is
> eternal....so your question is "without Spiritual Master". Without Spiritual
> Master you cannot be at any stage of your life.You may accept this Spiritual
> Master or that Spiritual Master. That is a different thing but you have to
> accept. As you say that "by reading Bible", when you read bible that means
> you are following the Spiritual master represented by some priest or
> clergyman in the line of lord Jesus Christ.

> Dr. Frog Philosophy

> There have been so many articles on the ritvik initiation system lately both
> for and against it, that it is a constant job to keep up with it all. If you
> look at those who are for it and at those who are against it you will find
> an obvious contrast. The devotees who are against it are usually ISKCON
> gurus; ISKCON wanna be gurus; Gaudiya Math gurus; Gaudiya Math wanna be
> gurus and fanatical followers of the all of the above.

> The Devotees who are for the ritvik system are an ever-increasing group of
> sincere devotees who just want to see Srila Prabhupada's orders carried out
> so that we can have a reunited and expanding movement again. What could be
> the ulterior motive of these individuals? The possible ulterior motives for
> those who are against the ritvik initiation system are obvious. Profit,
> distinction and adoration to name a few. Plus since ISKCON has no retirement
> account it's a good way to secure one. The guru system has become a business
> in ISKCON as elsewhere. It's time to separate the two. It's time to put
> Srila Prabhupada back as the one and only diksa guru in ISKCON. We all
> accept the fact that he is the main siksa guru in ISKCON, but we must
> understand also that he should be the only diksa guru in ISKCON. This will
> happen when the proper initiation system is put in place by the proper
> authority, the GBC.

> So many devotees are writing against the ritvik initiation system with a
> poor fund of knowledge. It's kind of like the example that Srila Prabhupada
> used to give of the frog in the well. The frog is trying to understand how
> big the ocean is by comparing it with his well. Then he compares it with his
> throat by expanding it bigger and bigger until it explodes! This is what the
> critics are doing to themselves by condemning Srila Prabhupada's
> instructions for such a system as outlined in his July 9th 1977 Newsletter
> to all GBC's and Temple Presidents. They don't understand how serious it is
> to condemn these instructions as the GBC themselves have done with official
> resolutions against the ritvik initiation system. Those who preach against
> it and mislead others are guilty of disobeying the orders of the spiritual
> master, a serious offense. They are guilty of offending hundreds, maybe
> thousands of devotees, by disobeying Srila Prabhupada's instructions. They
> have turned a good word into a bad one. It's time to rectify this situation.
> The GBC must act soon. How many nice devotees have to be abused by the
> 'gurus' and leave the mission before it sinks in, that something is wrong in
> ISKCON!

> Now we even have the scientist preacher getting into the debate! Does he
> want to be a guru too? He had one librarian who was interested in him
> before; but I think she got fried with his politics. He authored the paper,
> 'The Ritvik Heresy' where he uses a tape that has been proven to be doctored
> as his 'main evidence' and ignores Srila Prabhupada's written order of July
> 9th 1977!

> Srila Prabhupada never made a policy change on a tape! He did everything in
> writing. At the same time on the May 28th tape he says he's appointing
> officiating acharyas or ritviks to initiate his disciples 'after his
> departure' in the beginning of the tape, before any doctoring occurs. He
> also says that you can be a 'regular guru' when he orders us. Has any of the
> current gurus received this order? And if they have they should be a guru in
> their own temples. They should have the potency to inspire and expand the
> preaching mission as Srila Prabhupada did. For this 'scientific preacher' to
> preach about the initiation system is like the frog in the well trying to
> understand the ocean. This is Dr. Frog Philosophy! That's the real heresy!

> This author has also written a piece called Officiating Acharya = Ritvik
> Acharya = Diksa Guru. On one hand in his Ritvik Heresy paper, he condemns
> the ritvik initiation system and on the other hand here he's saying the
> ritvik priests are equal to diksa gurus! "Things equal to the same thing are
> equal to one another." That's scientific! The real tittle should read
> Officiating Acharya = Ritvik Acharya = Deputy.

> These are the terms Srila Prabhupada used.

> On October 18 1977, less than a month before his departure, Srila Prabhupada
> said:

> Hare Krsna. One Bengali gentleman has come from New York?

> Tamal KG: Yes; Mr Sukamal Roy Chowdury.

> Srila Prabhupada: So I have deputed some of you to initiate. Hmm?

> TKG: Yes. Actually...Yes, Srila Prabhupada.

> Srila Prabhupada: So I think Jayapataka can do that if he likes. I have
> already deputed. Tell him.

> TKG: Yes.

> Srila Prabhupada: So, deputies, Jayapataka's name was there?

> Bhagavan: It is already on there, Srila Prabhupada. His name was on that
> list.

> Srila Prabhupada: So I depute him to do this at Mayapura, and you may go
> with him. I stop for the time being. Is that alright?

> TKG: Stopped doing what, Srila Prabhupada?

> Srila Prabhupada: This initiation. I have deputed the, my disciples. Is it
> clear or not?

> Giriraja: It's clear.

> Srila Prabhupada: You have got the list of names?

> TKG: Yes, Srila Prabhupada.

> Srila Prabhupada: And if by Krsna's grace I recover from this condition,
> then I shall begin again, or I may not be pressed in this condition to
> initiate. It is not good.

> Giriraja: We will explain to him so that he will understand properly.

> Srila Prabhupada: Hm? Hm?

> Giriraja: I said we will explain to the Bengali gentleman just as you have
> described to us, so that he'll be satisfied with this arrangement.

> We need to stick to what the guru actually said and not engage in
> speculations and fancy word jugglery that is so common today. Srila
> Prabhupada never appointed diksa gurus as is alleged by so many today. He
> preached strongly against it.

> I just read another long article against the ritvik initiation system that
> started out saying it was short. Anyone who read it could see that it was
> very long. Many articles claim that the ritvik system isn't supported by
> guru, sastra and sadhu. Isn't Srila Prabhupada the guru? He said to do it!
> Whatever the bonafide guru says to his disciples is as good as sastra and
> there is nothing in sastra forbidding it! Ritvik priests, or officiators,
> are mentioned in the sastra. In the Krsna book there are the brahmin priests
> and ritviks are mentioned in other parts of the Srimad Bhagavatam. It is
> supported by sadhus such as Sridhara Maharaja who also ordered a ritvik
> initiation system before he passed away. It is also supported by hundreds of
> current sadhus. So the ritvik system is supported by guru, sastra and sadhu
> and the sooner we face the Truth and act on it the better off we'll be!

> I personally heard Srila Prabhupada order the ritvik initiation system for
> the future of ISKCON but no GBC man, (except one who didn't keep his word
> that there would be major changes in ISKCON), has cared to ask me about it.
> They ask everyone but the witnesses in this regard and that alone is
> suspicious. The Ritvik Heresy papers are still in the LA Temple room for the
> innocent public based on unscientific research, the same thing the author
> criticizes the materialistic scientists for, while the Truth is still
> hidden. It's time to stop listening to the croaking of the frogs in the
> wells, who will just get eaten by the snakes of offenses, and listen to
> Srila Prabhupada without adding or subtracting anything.

On 1 Nov 2000, Gauranga Prema Dasa wrote:

If you finish reading the rest of that BTG article you will note that Srila Prabhupada says that you may accept Jesus as your guru but will also need the assistance and guidance of the the clergyman in the church who repeats the message of Jesus without interpreting. What would be the difference between that sort of individual (who is capable of repeating the message without altering it) and a bona fide spiritual master? In your last letter you finally admitted the need for a current link and then you claimed that Srila Prabhupada is the current link, which brings me back to my first question, which is how do you know that Srila Prabhupada is the current link? In other words, how do you know that there isn't someone out there who isn't recognized as a bona fide spiritual master, much in the same way Srila Prabhupada wasn't recognized as such for so many years? At the moment I'm not supporting anyone, be he a GBC, Prabhupada disciple, Narayana Maharaja follower or any member of the ritvik camp etc. The tendency of most of the people I've met in the ritvik camp is to try to lump me in to one of these categories. They seem to have the tendency of jumping to the conclusion that anyone who opposes them must be motivated by one of these factions, so as a result of this, what usually happens is they end up wasting my time and there's presenting so many arguments that are irrelevant to my position.

Srila Prabhupada often spoke of those he would appoint in the future. So if that hasn't happened yet it will surely happen sometime. We know from our studies that a spiritual master must be appointed by his or her predecessor, therefore Gaurikisora Dasa Baba-ji must have appointed Srila Bhaktisiddhanta while he was not physically present, much in the same way that A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami, Srila Prabhupada must have been appointed while Srila Bhaktisiddhanta was not physically present, as we have no record of him instructing Srila Prabhupada to accept disciples, however we do have a record of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta not appointing anyone in his last days, therefore my question is how do you people know your not jumping the gun and at the same time offending someone who may be the current link by ignoring him and his instructions. Do you really believe that Srila Prabhupada was unsuccessful in creating even one pure devotee as he said he had done in that Caitanya-caritamrta purport I submitted to you previously. And, from the other Caitanya-caritamrta purport I submitted to you we know that if someone is qualified to be a bona fide siksa guru he is also qualified to initiate.

Haribol

On 2 Nov 2000, Gauranga Prema Dasa wrote:

Dear Manvantara Prabhu

Please accept my respectful obeisances.
All glories to Srila Prabhupada.

Srimad-Bhagavatam [Canto 3, Ch. 22 TEXT 7]

PURPORT

The real fact is that a bona fide spiritual master knows the nature of a particular man and what sort of duties he can perform in Krsna consciousness, and he instructs him in that way. He instructs him through the ear, not privately but publicly. "You are fit for such and such work in Krsna consciousness. You can act in this way." One person is advised to act in Krsna consciousness by working in the deities room, another is advised to act in Krsna consciousness by performing editorial work, another is advised to do preaching work, and another is advised to carry out Krsna consciousness in the cooking department. There are different departments of activity in Krsna consciousness, and a spiritual master knowing the particular ability of a man trains him in such a way that by his tendency to act he becomes perfect. Bhagavad-gita makes it clear that one can attain the highest perfection of spiritual life by offering service according to his ability, just as Arjuna served Krsna by his ability in the military art. Arjuna offered his service as a military man and he became perfect. . . . . One who wants to be certain to achieve spiritual success must take instruction from the spiritual master as to what his particular function is.

Srimad-Bhagavatam [Canto 3, Ch. 28 TEXT 2]

PURPORT

One should seek out a bona fide spiritual master and surrender unto him, for by inquiring from and worshiping him one can learn spiritual activities. As long as we have this material body there are various duties prescribed for us. Such duties are divided by a system of four social orders: brahmana, ksatriya, vaisya and sudra.

Is there anyone in the ritvik camp who is receiving these types of specific instructions about what type of service each individual should be engaged in, directly from Srila Prabhupada? Even if they were, that wouldn't necessarily prove that Srila Prabhupada is the current link, nor would it minimize the importance of approaching the current link. In making the statement about vani you made in your last letter, you have not taken into consideration the information I have presented thus far. Srila Prabhupada's instructions (vani, if you will) include approaching the current link, and as I have indicated previously, I can see no reason to justify believing that enough, if any effort has been made to ascertain whether or not there is a current link physically present on the planet now, nor do I see any reason to believe that the members of the ritvik camp would follow the instructions of one if such an individual is here. I also see no reason to believe that this philosophy propounded by the members of the ritvik camp makes much, if any room for acceptance of a physically present spiritual master any time in the future. Most of them seem to figure that it would be a waste of time to accept any one other than Srila Prabhupada, even though the guru is one, regardless of how, when, where or under what circumstances the Supreme Lord decides the guru should appear.

It appears that one possible motivation for the members of the ritvik camp could very well be that their version of the philosophy appears to conveniently allow them not to have to submit to the authority of anyone other than someone who is not physically present, and for many, if not all of them, that, for all practical purposes, means that they think that no one can ever tell them where to go or what to do.

I must say that I am somewhat disappointed in you. Now that you have finally taken more of an interest in the instructions of Srila Prabhupada found in his books, tapes, letters etc., it seems that you may have primarily focused on the ones that suit your convenience, at least with regard to this subject. Of course, I still consider you my friend. I'm sure you must know that, in all the time we've known each other, I never took your version of the philosophy very seriously, as I have never kept that a secret, nor has that ever seemed to interfere with our longstanding friendship.

And, by the way, what the Hell is this "final order" business all about anyways? I've read this nonsense, and I want to make it perfectly clear right here and now, that he reasons ill who tells that vaisnavas die, while living still in sound. They die to live and living spread the holy name around. (Poem by Srila Bhakativinode Thakura) The spiritual master is eternal, and the relationship of the spiritual master and the disciple is also eternal. Srila Prabhupada never issued a "final order" and never will. He has not finished imparting instructions nor will he ever be finished. It is true that everything is in his books which include this point and the others I have made as well. Looking forward to your response, but please review what I have presented thus far before responding so that all the evidence I have previously presented will be taken into consideration. I have saved copies of our correspondence. If you would like, I would be more than happy to send them again.

Aspiring to be the sincere
servant of the servant,

Yours Truly,
Gauranga Prema Dasa

Hare Krsna

On 2 Nov 2000, Manvantara Prabhu wrote:

> Hello!

> Dear Prabhu

> I have read most of you responses to my Emails and will give some
> feedback soon. Thank you very much for all your time spent on these issues.
> I have been busy in the process of helping someone move so I've had little
> time to do any research.

> FAX 775-227-3813
> With Regards
> MIKE
> manvantara@teknett.com

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