P  A  N  D  E  N  I  M
  Philosophical Correspondence:  Bill  &  Jutta  &  Carl
   Topic:   Plato, Aristotle: Epistemology & Mind and Thought Control
                                                      P A R T   III
                                                   (Edited Version)



CONTINUATION  OF  THE  DEBATE:

Subject:  Helluva 41 years
 From:     Carl Zimmerman (PHILOS1)
 To:       (ALL)
 DateTime: 5/2/00 5:14:14 PM

 Hi, Bill and Jutta:

I have been reading your brilliant "epistemology"
dialogue. It
 is relevant to May 1, which is presumably intended to
honor the working
 classes. Yesterday, May 1, 2000, while left-wing
demonstrators painted a
 hammer and sickle on a public artifact in England, and
right wing
 demonstrators shouted neo-nazi slogans in Germany, I
retired from a career
as a science writer for the USA pharmaceutical
industry, which spanned 41
years.

 Numerous messages would be required to describe my
experiences during
 those four decades. This message pertains mainly to the
ideas of Plato and
Aristotle, as these are key topics in your dialogue.

 My career as a science writer began in 1959 when
intellectual labor did
 not predominate as it does today. My co-workers,
employers and I relied on
 our individual perceptions and ideas in a manner that
Aristotle would advocate, primarily when economic conditions were
favorable. We depended
 on group behavior in a manner described by Plato mainly
during adverse
 economic interests.

 It is doubtful that we were directly influenced
specifically by the ideas
 of Aristotle and Plato, as none of us majored in
philosophy in college. In
 fact, I think that Plato and Aristotle were mainly
influenced by events.
They developed ideas to formulate ideologies that the
ruling classes would
 use to justify exploitation of intellectual and manual
labor, depending on
 circumstances. In short, they served those who paid
them, which has been
 commonly practiced by numerous philosophers, even
today.

 Ancient Greece had a relatively small population and
limited natural
 resources compared to its neighbors, and it was divided
by several city
 states. Plato's authoritarian and collectivist ideas
helped unify the country, and organize military and productive forces
for the conquest of
 other nations and creation of an empire. This was
similar to the policies
 of Hitler and Stalin who were faced with similar
circumstances in the 20th
 century.  However, I don't think that Hitler and Stalin
were contemplating
 Plato's ideas in formulating their policies.

 In ancient Greece, once the empire was established,
Aristotle's
 individualist ideas were used to spur some innovations.
These innovations
 were necessary to promote technological and educational
growth within the
 empire because if an empire doesn't grow, it will die.
This approach was
 used by the USA, England and France in the 20thcentury
to help preserve
their respective established empires. Again, I don't
that the ideas of
 Aristotle were considered in these situations.

 Moving on to the years of my employment (1959-2000), I
cite the following
 philosophers to exemplify those who described the
nature of the times:

 Maslow - Self - actualization.
MacLuhan - The power of the media.
 Heisenberg - The predominance of uncertainty and
Ratlosigkeit (German for
 restlessness).
 Freud - The influence of the unconscious.
 Tesla -The need for free energy to save humanity.
 Sartre - The absurdity of some elements of existence.
 Marcuse -  The failure of ideology, and the idea that each
new generation of
 youth has a different view of its future..
 Fanon - The destructiveness of racism to both oppressed
and oppressor.
Rand - The value of the individual in technological
society.
 The inventors of the Internet - The value of unlimited
contact with people
 and exchange of ideas.
 I think that these philosophers explained and
reinforced, not influenced,
events.  They made it easier to understand and deal
with events.
 Of course, a list of all modern philosophers would
require numerous  messages
 I value the study of philosophy because it sharpens the
ability to think.
 Consequently, this study is currently my main pursuit.

 If anyone asked, "What is your occupation?," I would
answer,
 "I am in the business of helping humanity emancipate
itself through
 the development of philosophic ideas."

 It was a helluva 41 years.
I welcome the comments of all.
 Cheers.
 Carl
 

Date: Tue, 02 May 2000 15:57:11 -0600
From: Bill Lyne <billlyne@earthlink.net>
To: carlzim@philosophers.net
Subject: Re: Helluva 41 years

   Carl,
    Plato was very much in the minds of Hitler and his
subordinates. In fact,
Alfred Rosenberg was a Platonist, and the idea of the SS
was patterned after
the philosopher-rulers in Plato's Republic. They ordered
their society, just
as Plato did, as the Golden (SS), Silver (lower), Bronze
(lower still), and
Iron (workers).
    As far as Aristotle, his epistemology did not serve
any interests in the
power structure. That branch of his philosophy has to be
separated from the
rest of it, as it has no peculiar significance to it.
That is the odd thing
about it, that it is not only Plato's epistemology, but
his entire philosophy
which is harmful. Stalin and Hitler were both guided by
it, and the idea of
collectivism is a mysticism which is based on it. The
ideas of the Sophists,
for example, are traced to the Sufis, and this too
strongly influenced the
Romans, the Templars and later the Nazis. Gnosticism
derived from it.
    Meanwhile, it is only the epistemology of Aristotle
that I point to as
liberating. I will never be part of any whining or
apologies for any dead
Marxist, Communist, or Nazi dictators, who in my opinion,
if there was a hell,
would all have gone straight to it. They NEVER did the
world any good
whatsoever.
Bill


Bill:
Thank you for your comments. I posted it in our forums which pertain
to this exchange such as Revelations. I encourage continuation of
this exchange, and I am asking you, Jutta and Franz to post your
messages in Revelations and the forums of your choice.
Cheers.
Carl


Carl,

I enjoyed your excellent analysis of Plato's and Aristotle's ideas with regard to their respective, specific
historical context. It is a legitimate supposition, that both their philosophies and epistemologies are the
products of the particular historical circumstances of Ancient Greece at a given moment, and are thus
somehow bound and limited to these circumstances.

Please note, however, that in the case of Plato, his epistemology as expressed in the "doctrine of the
ideas" had experienced a further refinement and development by Neo-Platonism (Plotin), and from there,
via religious stoicism, (Marc Aurel, Seneca, Epitectus) served as the basis for the Christian Catholic
Philosophy of the Middle Age, known as Scholasticism. As such, it is alive and present up to today in the
monotheistic, Christian Religion, part and parcel of the contemporary world superstructure, with an
inextinguishable impact on the way of thinking of all those who were and are part of the (now totally
globalized) Occidental Culture.

This, of course, is also the case of Aristotle's philosophy, the conservative and theological aspects of
which have been incorporated through Augustinus and Thomas Aquino into Catholicism. This philosophic
current constitutes the idealistic, Aristotelian "Right Wing". The materialistic aspects of Artistotle's
philosophy had found their refinement and development in the lesser known philosophies of Arabian
thinkers like Abu Ali ibn Sina (Avicenna),  Ibn Rušd (Averroes) and Salomon ibn Gabriol (Avicebron),
who put emphasis on the materialistic elements in Aristotle and concluded from them the non-existence of
God and Creation. This philosophic current constitutes the materialistic, Aristotelian "Left Wing", and
continued across the Renaissance Philosophers to Giordano Bruno, Baruch Spinoza, and across
mechanical materialism finally to Marx and Bloch.
Aristotelian Formal Logics, however, has had an even bigger and more extensive impact on the
Occidental Culture, prevailing up to today, and had not been further developed or modified until Hegel
wrote his "Science of Logic", where he develops his Speculative Logic, better known under the term
"Dialectics", which is based on the very Aristotelian Formal Logics, yet radically differing from it.

So, independently of the fact, that one would not have studied the philosophy and epistemology of Plato
and Aristotle, the very way we think and reason today has its direct roots in the epistemology of Plato
and the Logics of Aristotle.
 

Regards, Jutta.
 

Jutta, Franz, Carl, and all,
 
if you think that the epistemology of Aristotle is limited to the circumstances of ancient Greece, you
should check out what Ayn Rand had to say about it, in her book, "Philosophy: Who Needs It?" If you
think this is not influential today, it may be because you are unfamiliar with what Rand actually had to
say. When one is familiar with the Rand philosophy, then it becomes apparent as to how much influence
it has and has had on today's world (here, I sense the sour expressions on the faces of Marxists,
Communists, Fascists, Schwankwirtschaft Socialists, etc.).
    Alan Greenspan got his education under the Austrian School of Classical Economics, and was one of
the few close confidants of Ayn Rand, before he "sold out" to the coercive monopolists, who rule the
world (those "anti-capitalists" who held "anti-capitalist" rallies over May Day in England and Europe
should rejoice, on discovering that the coercive monopolists are also "anti-capitalists". As they say,
"Ignorance is bliss").  Greenspan's excellent ("Objectivist") education with Rand and in economics is what
allows him to know what is going on in the economy, while everyone else seems ignorant by comparison,
but we who admire the Objectivist philosophy no longer count him as one of our own. It is indeed the
most cruel treachery of all, to stab those in the back who have fed you.
    Many have heard of Rand and of her philosophy, "Objectivism", but few actually know what the
philosophy says. Rand's philosophy is closely akin to that of Karl Popper, of  England. Of particular
interest is what she had to say about Kant, Hegel, Marx, and the existentialists, for example. There are
many "cross-overs" in these philosophies, where the collectivist concepts found in Plato are represented
in disguised form in the Communist theories. As such, I consider the Communist philosophy to be a
religious one, in which the concept of "collective consciousness" which was incorporated by the Tibetan
Bhuddists, from the pre-Bhuddist Bon murder cult---the "Doctrine of the Non-Ego"---found its way via
Bhuddism to German philosophy through Kant, Schopenhauer and a few other German Bhuddists. And
that is how it entered into the Communist philosophy of Marx. Since the "superiority of collectivism over
individualism" is a religious concept, accepted on faith and not reason, based on the Bon/Bhuddist
"collective consciousness" doctrine, there is absolutely no basis in reason for such a presupposition, and it
is just as wacky as the Christian belief in "god".

Bill Lyne

Subject:
         41 years of Carl
     Date:
         Thu, 4 May 2000 07:15:11 -0400
     From:
         "Vic Campbell" <vic@grade-a.com>
       To:
         "Franz Lee / Jutta Schmitt" <franzjutta@cantv.net>, <marxcom@listbot.com>,
         <franzjutta@listbot.com>, "Pandemonium 2000" <pandemonium2000@listbot.com>,
         "Juschmi" <juschmi@listbot.com>
      CC:
         "Carl Zimmerman" <czfz@bellatlantic.net>
 References:
         1
 
 
 

     A REPLY to CARL's thoughts on retirement..

     In my 20 plus years engaging the corporate world for my source of income, it was rare to find a thinking individual. I
     do not even consider myself a "thinker".  The great unthinking masses of the world and in particular the corporate
     structure are tuned to think inside  a set of rules that will allow the whole organism to function and develop  regular
     paychecks for the participants.  Certainly the philosophies of great thinkers are woven into the process, much as Carl
     notes in his letter below.

     I believe in my corporate years, Carl Zimmerman was the only true thinker I found. I do not even include myself.  I,
     like many of my collegues find our selves too busy making our little part of the world follow the rules that we never
     take the time to quietly and simply think ... to question and to postulate other threads of potential outside our
     controllable universe.  We let others periodically stimulate our thought, but the pursuit of thought becomes too
     cumbersome in our challenge to "maintain".

     My hat is off to Carl. He remained a thinker for as long as I have known him.  I appreciated his challenges and insight.
     I still do.  I once described Carl as a "socially acceptable version of Don Albert", the homeless genius who graces our
     "Brain in A Box" video series.  Carl kept a job where he was woefully underappreciated because he was seen as a
     "writer and editior" and not as a thinker.  Had his talents been explored and utilized by the great corporations he
     worked with, there is no telling how great the corporate achievements would have been.   Don Albert stepped away
     from the social controls of corporation and family and lives on the edge of reality, taking crumbs from others for his
     existence.

     By the way;  Don was discovered recently in Tel Aviv. He was picketing the prime minister's residence because he
     had been thrown out of public assistance housing.  I'll update his web page soon to reflect what we know of his
     current status.

     I look forward to continued thought stimulation from the brilliant and socially acceptable Carl Zimmerman.

     Kind Regards,

     Vic Campbell

     www.grade-a.com


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