June 20th, 2000
ScnWrt has entered the room.
iiiiriiiis: Hello, Carl!
ScnWrt: Hi, Franz and Iris
iiiiriiiis: Glad you could
make it! How are
you today?
panta98: Hi! Carl!
......
panta98: Well, should we
proceed?
iiiiriiiis: Yes, better let's
proceed, Franz. Anyhow, Khalid will get the transcript later.
ScnWrt: Ja, Franz
iiiiriiiis: Bitte, Franz.
panta98: Well, you both received
my suggestions for the chat tonight, which basically were formulated by
Khalid and you, Carl. We need not repeat them here. However, as we chat
along, I'll remind you of our central endeavours.
iiiiriiiis: Ok, Franz.
panta98: Let me summarize
our topic, our deliberations. To ease editing later, please, be somehow
systematic, to the point, and keep the "red thread". Our theme is straightforward:
"What
is to be done to build an emancipatory world?"
panta98: Living in a world,
as portrayed by our "daily news", and given the knowledge accumulated through
our own experiences and practices including the study of the lectures and
debates the question begs for an answer, well! What's next? ...
panta98: How do we feel about
everything around us? How do we respond to the information overload as
reported in the media and other sources? Where do we stand? How should
were act? How do we apply the theoretical knowledge to the information
given? ...
panta98: It is sufficient
to make us feel okay in our interpretations or whatever we choose to do
with the information? Should we feel sad, disgruntled, impotent, useless,
helpless?Finally, can we justify a feeling of dread, fear, hopelessness,
guilt or
permanent apathy? ...
panta98: So, where should
we begin, to do something, to emancipate ourselves?
panta98: The floor is open
for the debate.
panta98: Any suggestions?
ScnWrt: We ned to cut through
all this - understand the change in economic relations
iiiiriiiis: Well, I would
like to suggest, that we have a look at the "information
overload" first...
panta98: I think we should
first clarify what "information" is?
ScnWrt: The lumpenproletariat
runs things.
panta98: And whether we are
being informed at all? What do you think, Carl?
panta98: Yes, Carl. I fell
in love with that beauty of an article of mine. It clarifies many a thing.
ScnWrt: I think we are being
diverted by a NWO-created infomation overload
panta98: I think it is the
Lumpenilluminati, the Lumpenintelligentsia and the
Lumpenbourgeoisie.
ScnWrt: They are all lumpen!
panta98: Iris, how is the
information-factory in Germany?
panta98: Yes, Carl.
ScnWrt: From Brecht's Dreigroschenopfer,
they rose to the top.
ScnWrt: Mack der Messer is
Big Brother (seriously) .
panta98: I was thinking about
Brecht's work when I wrote the article. I also now
understand what he wanted
to portray there.
ScnWrt: So did Ernst Busch.
panta98: Yes, Mack The Knife
is Big Brother!
panta98: But, the problem
is not exactly the lumpen-upper-classes, ...
ScnWrt: We get an overload
of conflicting information to screw up priorities.
panta98: The "problem" is
the "masses" whom we are supposed to "conscientize", to "emancipate".
...
panta98: How are we going
to find solidarity in a lumpen-environment?
iiiiriiiis: The problem with
"information" is: if we take, for example, the so-called news that is on
my mind and on our own, then, we have to relate the data, because seemingly,
what happens on the economic, political, social, natural level, has
no relation whatsoever to the way how it is being "reported", and taught...
panta98: Are not many of
these "luumpen" on Internet?
ScnWrt: Yep!
ScnWrt: and on CNN !
ScnWrt: ... in the
media !
panta98: I visited the "Spirit
and Soul" delphi site, with over 5 000 messages. I could not 'believe'
what I read in the introduction, less so the contributions.
panta98: I nearly became
a staunch "believer"; information nearly converted me.
http://www.delphi.com/pneumapsyche/start/
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iiiiriiiis: I still haven't
visited the site, Franz...
ScnWrt: Agreed, Franz. Mind
Control. Confused priorities.
panta98: Read the introductory
message, Iris, and then you'll turn back home, to
Pandemonium!
ScnWrt: Iris, I invited the
host of Spirituality to visit Revelations. He didn't even comment.
panta98: And such pages,
receive thousands of visits.
iiiiriiiis: Yes, give me
the URL later, please.
panta98: I sent it to you,
under the heading our Delphi Forums, a week ago, Iris.
iiiiriiiis: Franz and Carl,
did you receive my comment above?
iiiiriiiis: Ok Franz, I'll
check on it.
panta98: Yes, Iris. I'll
comment just now!
iiiiriiiis: Thank you, Franz.
ScnWrt: Iris, news is created
to distort priorities and divert attention from significant issues
ScnWrt: The news media is
a circus.
panta98: Iris, firstly, the
Tageschau is a collection of carefully selected individual
news items, flashed like
lightning, where the individual themes have no relation to
each other; in fact, it is
a scientific method, to destroy thinking capacity. ...
iiiiriiiis: And Franz, have
a look at www.geekforce.org .
panta98: The objective is
not to inform, not to give news, but to test a certain
experimentation of mind and
thought control.
panta98: In other words,
how to inform the "masses", so that they will never ever be informed again.
panta98: I will, Carl.
ScnWrt: Iris, geekforce
is on target.
panta98: In any case, if
we have to receive relevant news of all important things which
happen on earth, then we
would need 365 hours a day, to cope with it all.
iiiiriiiis: On target, Carl,
what does it mean, please?
panta98: So, in any case,
to inform about things which happen within 24 hours on a
global scale, from the point
go is nonsense.
iiiiriiiis: Yes, Franz, but
I think quantitatively...
ScnWrt: Iris, Highly appropriate
panta98: Thus News is not
new, is not "news"; it is one of the methods of indoctrination and
manipulation.
iiiiriiiis: A quantitative
"overload".... thank you, Carl.
panta98: However, the question
is: (our central theme) How Can We Be Informed
About Emancipatory Issues?
panta98: Furthermore, what
is information? A zillion isolated data, the so-called
"facts"?
iiiiriiiis: I fear there
is no information whatsoever available, Franz - taking in
consideration what you have
just pointed out.
iiiiriiiis: No information
about emancipatory issues.
panta98: Which "information"
do we need to live, to act, to think, to excel, to
emancipate ourselves?
ScnWrt: We must create the
emancipatory issues
panta98: Do we really need
"information", as this concept is being understood in social
education?
ScnWrt: We need understanding
ScnWrt: Study language-How
words express thinking and ideas.
panta98: That the Soviet
Union was neither socialist nor capitalist, nor emancipatory, to this conclusion
I came 40 years ago, with a minimum of "information". I wrote that, and
"history" has proven my "information"
as having been highly "satisfactory".
iiiiriiiis: In the sense
of "social education" surely not, Franz. You just pointed out the method
of this type and the means of "information".
ScnWrt: Which words are used
as mind control triggers?
panta98: Word No.1: The human
being!
panta98: We are all human
beings!
panta98: Any comments about
this ideological word?
iiiiriiiis: Yes, also what
you wrote on Africa some 20 years ago, predicting what will
happen under certain circumstances
with Mandela.
ScnWrt: Franz, I knew that
the Soviet Union was planning to switch to capitalism in
1950...
ScnWrt: from emigree students
at CUNY.
panta98: Yes, till today,
the South Africans wonder, how did he know it? They call me a sangoma,
a witch-doctor!!
panta98: The trouble is and
was, Carl, that I took Socialism seriously, and I knew and know exactly
what it is supposed to be. ...
ScnWrt: I knew what was going
to happen with Mandella 20 years ago on BBC,
Shortwave Radio (Grundig)
panta98: When I received
a minimum quantity of data, "information", and when I put 2 and 3 and 8
together, I came to the conclusion, that what was happening there, was
happening all over --- simply crude, cruel capitalism. As simple as that!
panta98: I just need to look
at a revolutionary, how he treats his girl-friend or women in general,
to know that he is a farce.
panta98: I don't need to
study his works, to see whether he is a liberal or Trotskyite!
ScnWrt: Monopolistic, manipulative
capitalism, not free entrpise.
iiiiriiiis: On the human
being...! Aristoteles, Plato, Kant, Montesquieu, Voltaire etc. didn't
leave any doubt on who is
a "human being" - and we also discussed in our previous
chats the core of the matter,
the essence of a "human being" is as a result of a by-product
called "history" which
leads to an explaination of what is the Labour Process...
panta98: I just need to read
a few lines about somebody, see his attitude to Nature,
then I know who and what
he is.
ScnWrt: Camus said a true
rebel always defends the executed, never the executioners
panta98: Ask Iris, everytime,
they have a new book in their hands, and they ask my
opinion: I look at the title,
the contents, read two sentences of the introduction, and
then I tell them to throw
the rubbish into the fire.
iiiiriiiis: Yes, Franz. It's
true.
panta98: Yes, Iris, and what
is the next catch-word, Carl?
iiiiriiiis: "catch-word?"
Franz?
ScnWrt: Franz and Iris: Listen
to short wave radio. Lots of independent thinking as
well as rubbish.
iiiiriiiis: just let me read
back one minute, I think I lost an important point while typing...
panta98: Carl, that's true,
but, what would happen when Camus defends NEITHER the executioner NOR the
executed? Will he then still be a rebel, or would he be on the
straight Don Albert Road
to Emancipation?
ScnWrt: Depends on the circumstances,
Franz.
panta98: Which circumstances,
Carl?
iiiiriiiis: Oh, Carl, I don't
have any radio ...
panta98: I'll buy you one,
when you get pensioned, Irislein!
ScnWrt: The French-Algerian
war
ScnWrt: Please buy Iris a
Grundig.
iiiiriiiis: ahhh, so, so!
then you'll never have to buy one, my dear.
panta98: And where did it
end? Carl. What happened to the executioners? And how
many are being executed now
in Algeria?
ScnWrt: You can listen to
short wave radio on the web-BBC, etc.
panta98: What did Ben Bella
and Frantz Fanon fight for? For what did Fanon die?
panta98: And the Vietnamese?
And the Chinese? And the Russian Red Guard?
ScnWrt: I use a Grundig to
get broadcasts fast.
ScnWrt: They all fought for
global capitalism.
panta98: I have a huge Grundig
Shortwave here, all meter bands! A Satellite!
panta98: I even have a small
Grundig Short Wave; it stands in San Onofre, only iris
never has time to listen
to the radio; she looks at the Venezuelan novelas. :-)
ScnWrt: I have the latest
top of the line Grundig - Uses Tesla. Technology - Outstandin Clarity.
panta98: Yes, I know, Carl.
I've been listening to Grundig Shortwave since 1962.
ScnWrt: I watch the novellas
on Cable TV.
iiiiriiiis: I think Franz
made an interesting point a few moments ago, Carl, regarding
the question on how "theory"
and "praxis" of the rebels were interrelated, i.e....! In what way their
lives, their actions had to with what they fought for on a politic-economic-social
level.
panta98: Iris, still around?
The Novelas just begun!!!
iiiiriiiis: Sure Franz, I'm
here!
panta98: Agreed, Iris!
iiiiriiiis: You just do me
the favour and consider, PLEASE...
iiiiriiiis:... , that my
English is as slowly "burning" as my brains ; )
iiiiriiiis: This is my problem
here in the chats.
ScnWrt: Most of the rebels
were opportunists - fought for themselves.
panta98: What happened to
all the revolutionary students of 60's? What did their acts
and thoughts had to do with
Emancipation?
panta98: Exactly, Carl.
iiiiriiiis: Or by the way,
for example, what did Guevara think about women?
iiiiriiiis: KKK
panta98: But, how should
we see, treat and confront the world around us?
iiiiriiiis: Kinder Küche
Kirche
ScnWrt: They became corporate
board members.
ScnWrt: Michael Harrington
abused women.
ScnWrt: That was the thinking
of many men in their generation.
panta98: The truth of the
matter is, that what they did, thought, and ended up with, is exactly what
was and will always be "emancipation". Now, I want us to differentiate,
to debate, what Emancipation means for us. Any suggestions?
ScnWrt: Emancipation means
we reap rewards and survive based entirely on our
contributions in exchange
with others.
panta98: Yes, Che dedicated
only about 4 pages to women, and told them exactly where their emancipatory
place should be: in the Kueche, producing Kinder, and then to take them
to Church which teaches them Theology of Liberation.
iiiiriiiis: But which kind
of exchange, Carl? And for whom?
panta98: In all the 100 volumes
of the works of Marx, Engels, Lenin and Trotsky, only one volume would
fill what they essentially had said about or to women. However, I must
add: Respectively, they were sweet to Jenny, Krupskaya and Natascha!!!
iiiiriiiis: And on Marx..
iiiiriiiis: ha! that's what
I mean...
ScnWrt: That was their culture,
guys.
panta98: Is culture something
worth cultivating, Carl?
iiiiriiiis: Do you think,
Carl, there is a difference, a different culture today? "Culture" I never
understood this term, no one can explain the meaning to me.
panta98: Can we use culture
to emancipate ourselves?
ScnWrt: Iris, we and others
become and exchange the means of production and
distribution
panta98: And then, what kind
of culture, treating what?
panta98: I think the means
of production should not be "exchanged", they should be
"extirpated", expelled out
of the next zillion galaxies.
panta98: Production is Labour,
is DDDD, so what has it to do with Emancipation?
panta98: Zillions of creatures
lived millions and billions of years ago, without
production.
ScnWrt: I'm not referring
to that kind of production. Is output a better word?
panta98: I think that the
first thing to be done, is to emancipate ourselves from
Production.
panta98: Well, output comes
from Labour, from Work, carl.
ScnWrt: Agreed. Change what
we do and contribute
frogmobile has entered the
room.
panta98: I understand what
you mean, it's difficult to formulate.
ScnWrt: Chomskywas right.
We ned to use different words
iiiiriiiis: Hello, Khalid!
frogmobile: Hi guys my apologies
frogmobile: hello Iris
panta98: Not only words,
innovative methods of thinking and reasoning.
ScnWrt: Hi,. Khalid. How
are you feeling?
iiiiriiiis: ..and mobile
statistics...
panta98: Then we can fill
any word vessel with our thought "products", and we know
exactly what we say, what
we mean.
ScnWrt: and mobile interactions
and exchanges
frogmobile: Quite okay. How
are you Carl?
ScnWrt: OK
iiiiriiiis: Yes, Carl!
frogmobile: What are we discussing?
panta98: This is exactly
what we are trying to do in our San Onofre discussions, taking
weeks to find a word, to
fill it with new contents, to keep it at rest, to move it, neither to
do this, nor to do other
things, etc.
panta98: Hi! Guy! You are
mobile. We're discussing your questions!
iiiiriiiis: Carl, Franz,
could you give Khalid a short overview please...
iiiiriiiis: Indeed, Franz!
frogmobile: Okay! let's proceed
iiiiriiiis: And sometimes
we just hauen gegen einen Balken, übersetze das bitte, Franz
ScnWrt: What is mancipation?
What is to be done to achieve it?
frogmobile: have you guys
make any inroads to th equestions
panta98: Khalid, we're reflecting
on your questions, discussing how to do emancipatory
things.
panta98: We are analyzing
"doing", then we'll discuss "thinking", and then "doing and
thinking".
frogmobile: Alright! Is there
a way how we can do things differently but yet make an
impact through our actions
that could promote consciousness.
panta98: At the moment we
are looking at "culture".
iiiiriiiis: e-man-cipation...
ex-labour-cipation... and the various methods of acting,
thinking, reasoning...
panta98: I'll paste for you
what I said.
iiiiriiiis: please do so,
Franz
frogmobile: What is Culture?
How do we or can we define it?
ScnWrt: Listen to short wave
radio on the web. Lots of emancipatory stuff.
iiiiriiiis: there we go again,
Khalid, this precisely was one of the questions which
raised...
ScnWrt: Culture is what a
group of people do every day
panta98: Is culture something
worth cultivating, Carl?
panta98: Can we use culture
to emancipate ourselves?
frogmobile: Carl through
the internet you can access most of the radio stations around
the world much easier
ScnWrt: Yep, binds people
together to achieve common goal
panta98: And then, what kind
of culture, treating what? I think the means of production
should not be "exchanged",
they should be "extirpated", expelled out of the next
zillion galaxies.
frogmobile: But first we
have to define Culture.
panta98: Production is Labour,
is DDDD, so what has it to do with Emancipation?
panta98: Zillions of creatures
lived millions and billions of years ago, without
production.
ScnWrt: Khalid, that's why
I refrrd to the web.
panta98: Production is Labour,
is DDDD, so what has it to do with Emancipation? Zillions of
creatures lived millions
and billions of years ago, without production.
ScnWrt: I use a short wave
radio when ther's net congestion
panta98: OK, now you have
an idea, what we were dealing just now! Any comments?
frogmobile: Okay Carl
ScnWrt: Also, I don't want
to tie up my computer with radio when Fran wants to use it
frogmobile: that sounds reasonable
Carl
panta98 has left the room.
ScnWrt: For millions of years,
humans have been producing and exchanging output to
survive
frogmobile: There is a sound
of silence....!
ScnWrt: Franz got disconnected
iiiiriiiis: please, Khalid,
Carl, proceed. I'm listening. Kahlid, did you get the posting of
Franz - one of the last comments
by him?
frogmobile: Okay! How does
the process of survival impact the creation of culture?
iiiiriiiis: ...on production,
etc... ok.
iiiiriiiis: Khalid, I asked
before, if anybody could explain to me the "meaning" of this
term, I don't understand
it. What is mend by "culture" --?
ScnWrt: People agree on what
they need to do to survive
ScnWrt: survive
frogmobile: It is very complex
and difficult term that has been used from time to time
for many things.
ScnWrt: within the constraints
of their envionment
iiiiriiiis: To me, it's sort
of a synonym for "civilization" - and yes, indeed, it is used for
quite everything. Multi-cultural
society... what is "multi" in this?
iiiiriiiis: ..invited Franz
frogmobile: What is interesting
is how the individual cultural traits have been
influenced and developed
as a form of dogma
frogmobile: that instead
become very opressive and dictatorial
panta98 has entered the room.
iiiiriiiis: ...reinvited...
iiiiriiiis: Hello again,
Franz.
ScnWrt: It was formed by
opportunists and a lazy common folk afraid of responsibility
ScnWrt: Franz
iiiiriiiis: we are still
on "culture", Franz...
panta98: Well, Guys! A Mini-Black-Out!
An electricity power-cut thre me offline! I had
to re-boot!
panta98: Anyhow, let's march
on!
ScnWrt: White-out?
iiiiriiiis: caramba! once
more.
ScnWrt: Let's call outages
white-outs
panta98: Yes, "Bad" things
are always "Black"; a White-Out, would be to drink
Whiskey On The Rocks with
Hillary!
ScnWrt: with Monica
frogmobile: In each particular
enviornment workers have become source of
indoctrintation but at the
same time they developed certain spiritual, material
interpretation or analysis
in explaining their existence which was later translated as "culture."
panta98: OK! Let's leave
theculture of vintage!
frogmobile: Let' s define
its importance or significance
ScnWrt: To understand culture,
let's review why people of the same culture form a
common crowd symbol (Cannetti)
frogmobile: Should we be
concerned about it (culture)?
frogmobile: People are inherently
lonely
frogmobile: As a result they
love to belong to something to feel secure
ScnWrt: Khalid, yes. It has
been used to define the crowd-avoid responsibility
ScnWrt: to be led like sheep
frogmobile: The sense of
belonging has been an inherent trait of many of us
frogmobile: without it many
of us feel kaput
ScnWrt: dogma, religion and
culture are interrelated
ScnWrt: Until a kultukampf
occurs-then all goes kaput
panta98: Given the context
of all what is happening and the knowledge accumulated
through our own experiences
and practices including the study of the lectures and
debates the question begs
for an answer, well! What's next? ... Why discuss about
culture??
frogmobile: this exactly
explains as the longevity of religions
frogmobile: Okay guy
frogmobile: So lets answer
the question posed
panta98: How do I feel over
everything around me? How do I respond to the
information overload as reported
in the media and other sources? Where do I stand?
How should I react? How do
I apply the theoretical knowledge to the information
given? ...
ScnWrt: franz, because culture
defines what people we do
panta98: Which people, Carl?
And, in how far do the actions of "those" people affect
us?
frogmobile: Okay probably
we can divorce culture from the scheme of things and lets
see what conclusion we can
reach
ScnWrt: will do ...Hence,
we need to help them build emancipatory cultures
panta98: Now, you are talking!!!
panta98: Does culture go
together with emancipation? Are they not like oil and water?
frogmobile: Contradictory
ScnWrt: They go together.
The individual doesn't live in a vaccum.
panta98: Carl, why should
we help them, "those" people?
frogmobile: They are different
frogmobile: curture is oppresive
frogmobile: Culture is not
defined by me but by someone else
ScnWrt: Khalid, it can be
emancipatory
frogmobile: which I am "forced"
to follow and "accept"
panta98: Was not culture
the master key to distribute misinformation, indoctrination,
manipulation and control?
iiiiriiiis: Franz, I think
we just came to the conclusion, that we call it is culture, civilization,
production process, labour
process - all various aspects or the same "history". Maybe
several levels -
frogmobile: Franz, I agree
ScnWrt: Building a mobile
Internet culture which evolves through mutual consent
panta98: Khalid, what does
Hindu culture teach a woman/ Anything emancipatory in
that? So why discuss the
rubbish>
frogmobile: Yep! What of
Islamic?
panta98: Who are you, when
you are a cultured person?
panta98: I think a nut, eating
do'nuts!
frogmobile: We should not
confuse culture from costoms
frogmobile: That is why I
said it is oppressive since it is defined and practised by others
panta98: Customs are subordinate
to Culture. Cultures priduce custums. Customs don't
create cultures. The ruling
classes do.
ScnWrt: I'm referring the
development of new, different, mobile cultures, not ossified
customs
panta98: ... produce customs
...
frogmobile: and in order
to belong we follow
panta98: Any proletarian
culture around?
ScnWrt: We need to change
all that
frogmobile: I understand
Carl however I just wanted to make a differentation between
the two
panta98: And do the Lords
consider more than 5 billion "human beings" to be cultured?
ScnWrt: Th current culture
is lumpen
panta98: So, why bother about
culture?
frogmobile: perfecto guys,
bang on, proceed
panta98: Let's get down to
emancipation, the antidote to "culture", "customs" and
"civilization".
frogmobile: Now becareful
with the concept emancipation
panta98: I still don't know
what the essence of emancipation is! Can anybody in-form
me?
frogmobile: What is it to
emancipate? Emancipate from whom? How?
panta98: How am I going to
emancipate myself, when I don't even know what it is, why
"man" appeares in it, in
the word!
ScnWrt: The essence of emancipation
is a meld of individuation and mutual consent
panta98: I don't trust things
like man, wo-man, e-man-cipation!
panta98: Mutual from where,
Carl? From the "lumpen", from "Monica"?
frogmobile: okay guys to
avoid semantics lets get to the beef of the concept
ScnWrt: I think you don't
trust the ideas. The words are insignificangt
ScnWrt: insignificant
iiiiriiiis: (In this context,
I remember what you wrote on the Anden-lady on the painting of
Pico
Bolivar on how "natural-social"
relation is transformed, or better yet de-formed,
gutted and squeezed into
the labour process... (to the above...) -)
panta98: But, the semantics
was the first step to de-emancipate you, Khalid!
panta98: What did your Mom
tell you to say first, and what to associate with it?
panta98: At least, something
that begun with M.
ScnWrt: Agreed, Franz. That's
what Chomsky says
frogmobile: Franz, emancipate
has many conotations, political, social, religious,
emotional, economic, ..........!
frogmobile: But she is 'right"
she is mamamamamamamamamamam
frogmobile: ha! ha! ha!
panta98: Man, Mom, Mama,
,,, and so you forgot Nature, forgot your Mon-Key
existence.
ScnWrt: Agreed, Khalid, but
it begins with ideas
panta98: ma(n)ma(n)ma(n)
.....
frogmobile: is it that significant
panta98: Yes, Khalid. Does
not emancipation begin in the cradle?
panta98: Or should we do
it now, after 40, 60, 100 ?
ScnWrt: During our discussion
of culture, I tried to focus on changing the idea, not
preserving the word
panta98: Where did indoctrination
begin, not there?
panta98: However, let's leave
semantics, what is emancipation?
panta98: Why do I want to
emancipate myself in the first place/
frogmobile: Now let's jump
away from the cradle, "I" have defined myself
already as "emancipated,"
now, I expect some "trashing" from you guys........!
ScnWrt: Franz, emancipation
must begin everywhere
panta98: Carl, but, why emancipation?
frogmobile: the concept cannot
be restricted in a particular "language" or
"interpretation" it goes
beyond the "dogmas."
panta98: Do we want to be
irreal? Do we want to leave reality? Why?
ScnWrt: Franz, for the survival
of humanity
iiiiriiiis: Essence of emancipation...Nature,
Cosmos, Being, Acts, Acting - Existance of
emancipaton... Thoughts,
Thinking, Theory, Einai.... (i.e. relation of Acting a n d
Thinking ) ? Transcendance
of Emancipation ? Franz, sorry, but I'm out......! Can you
please try to indicate on
which degree we are discussing? I missed the boat and
completely.
frogmobile: Lets get to the
answer. I must admit it willl take me 5 to 10 minutes to
define it in words
ScnWrt: Khalid, that I was
trying to do
iiiiriiiis: Take your time,
Khalid.
panta98: Mankind discovered
the secret how to survive: to dominate and exploit
Nature, to dominate and discriminate
against each other. To Work, to Labour! That's how
Mankind survives. Why, then
Emancipation?
panta98: Is Labour or Work
not effective for survival? In that case, I agree,
Emancipation should be tested!
ScnWrt: Franz, without Emancipation,
the NWO will try to destroy Africa, and Africa
will take revenge
frogmobile: as for 'mankind'
we totally understand; but for US then it means something else
ScnWrt: The entire human
race will be destroyed
iiiiriiiis: the race, yes.
panta98: Some parts of Mankind
survive in an excellent fashion; another parts
vegetate on the bread line.
Who should be emancipated?
ScnWrt: Emancipation=survival
frogmobile: Emancipation
is necessary on an individual basis in terms of thinking,
acting.......!
ScnWrt: Agreed, Khalid
panta98: Agreed, Khalid.
My old question; How am I going to emancipate anything or
anyone, when I can't even
emancipate myself?
panta98: When I do not even
know how to act, how to think, how to excel?
panta98: So, what are we
doing, what is emancipatory doing>
frogmobile: I can! and I
have, since I am pretty sure of Who am I? What am I ? and
What's Next.
panta98: What are we doing
from 6.00 AM to 6.00 PM? Anything for Emancipation?
ScnWrt: Franz, we are exploring
emancipatory thinking our chats
panta98: if so, then what?
panta98: Yes, Carl. There
you got me, check-mate!
frogmobile: I 'll be back
in a un minuto
panta98: What are we doing
in our chats?
panta98: What have our chats
got to do with doing, Iris?
iiiiriiiis: das frage ich
mich gerade auch.
panta98: Is it perhaps, that
we take the "time" which we do not have, to chat with each
other for two hours?
ScnWrt: We are asking the
right questions
panta98: regularly, with
discipline?
panta98: Is it that we can
organize it at all?
frogmobile: These are just
merely philosophical probes we need.....to concretized the
concept
frogmobile: "emancipation
from mental slavery"
frogmobile: As Bob Marley
said
frogmobile: oops! are
you guys lost
ScnWrt: lost?
panta98 has left the room.
iiiiriiiis: no, Khalid, thinking...
sorry.
ScnWrt: Listening
frogmobile: I am doing the
same I am reviewing some of the comments
ScnWrt: I think that responsibility
and doing things for others are key to emancipifying
ourselves
ScnWrt: Please proceed, Khalid
frogmobile: I am thinking
on how to respond to your comments
iiiiriiiis: I really do have
serious problems on combining the comments, and detecting on
which level/degree of the
discussion to make any comment, sorry,
gentlemen...invited Franz
panta98 has entered the room.
iiiiriiiis: Hello again,
Franz.
frogmobile: Probably before
we do things for others and the reason why we do it is a
sign of emancipation
frogmobile: Would that be
correct Carl
ScnWrt: Also, how the others
react, Khalid
frogmobile: that's alright
Iris
panta98: Today Internet/AOL
behave, CANTV (telephone) is excellent, now CADELA
(electricity) runs wild.
Poor Third World!
iiiiriiiis: I'm sorry, Franz.
ScnWrt: No tengo problema,
Iris
iiiiriiiis: Yo si.
ScnWrt: Bad scene, Franz
iiiiriiiis: pero please,
proceed, I'm listening
panta98: KHALID, WHAT'S THIS
ABOUT DOING THINGS FOR OTHERS?
panta98: Iris, save the chat,
I lost two parts!
iiiiriiiis: Yes, don't worry,
Franz.
ScnWrt: I referred to doing
things for others as a key to emancipation
iiiiriiiis: Ok, Carl, Who
are the "others"? Which others?
panta98: Any "others", or
a selected "others", also for the "lumpen"?
iiiiriiiis: Why OTHERS
ScnWrt: e.g., I am saving
the chat transcript in parts
iiiiriiiis: thank you, Carl.
ScnWrt: The others that we
come in contact with daily
iiiiriiiis: Oh then....
panta98: And how do we appreciate
what "others" do for us?
frogmobile: I think they
are many people out there with tons of needs especially,
mental, physical, emotional,
social, economic; if one can suceed in concentizing one
"human" out of the many to
undersand the enviornemt in which he/she lives in then we
can say that we have achieved
something in life
ScnWrt: By their contributions
to us-the exchange
panta98: Well, I come into
contact with my boss, the Dean. With my neighbour, who
steals my eggs. With the
kid who throws stones on my roof, With the kids who scratch
my car. What must I do for
them, what do they do to me?
frogmobile: because we also
learn in the process too Carl
ScnWrt: Yep, Khalid
iiiiriiiis: Khalid, I fear
this is just impossible. And also I fear, one would waste his time.
At least, this is my experience.
panta98: What are the "contributions"
of what I just mentioned? What is being
exchanged?
ScnWrt: One of Che'
frogmobile: True! Iris, and
they will always be bad experiences in life at the same there
are 'some' deserving people
there too
frogmobile: We learn from
both worlds
panta98: Is not "exchange"
the apple of discord? Are our human values not "exchange
values"? What are emancipatory
values? Does emancipation need "values"?
panta98: Is valuing not discrimination?
ScnWrt: One of Che's problems
was as a physician after Castro's takeover, he never
addressed medical problems
in Cuba.
frogmobile: as long as the
intention is good we have nothing to feel bad about
panta98: Why do I value someone?
How do I value someone?
panta98: Well, I prefer NEITHER
GOOD NOR BAD INTENTIONS, the one is as
rotten and hypocritical as
the other!
ScnWrt: We value someone
to the degree that we value ourselves
panta98: What is good for
Paul is bad for Peter!
panta98: When a rapist has
good fun, the raped girl has bad nightmares; all sides of the
same act.
panta98: Good and bad always
go together.
frogmobile: People are a
product of their own demise
panta98: yes, the people,
you too, Khalid/
ScnWrt: Franz, how does feeding
a starving child harm anyone else?
frogmobile: Franz that is
not the comparsion that equates 'emancipation'
panta98: Well, if I feed
thestarving child my whole life, and it's whole life, then it's
excellent. ... but ...
iiiiriiiis: I don't have
time, nerves, energy, ganas, interest whatsoever to concienticize
one sole, single, "human
being" - and if somebody is already on his/her way, then I
don't have to concientize
either. .... If anybody does not WANT or just CANNOT
understand, then just forget
about it. And moreover...
panta98: when it returns
to its barrio, get again hungry tomorrow, starves, and then die
a week later,I don't know
what I really did.
panta98: It's like building a hospital below
the barrancos of the serpentine highway of the Venezuelan Andes,
to treat the victims, who crash down there by car every week. I prefer
the intelligent construction of innovative roads, and effective traffic
laws, to avoid permanent accidents.
iiiiriiiis: why me?
iiiiriiiis: why shoud I
ScnWrt: Iris, you don't have
to
frogmobile: If it gives you
satisfaction Franz its none of my business you have to draw
the line somewhere. first
why is the kid hungry?
panta98: Yes, and who gives
me a dime, when I am starving?
iiiiriiiis: I surely have
to do enough to "help" myself, - yes, Carl, I know.
panta98: Imagine me, feeding
the billions of starving people!
ScnWrt: Franz, no one is
asking you to do that
panta98: What's behind the
feeding idea, is Christ changing stones into bread; if I can
accomplish that, no problem!
iiiiriiiis: yes...thanks
Franz...
iiiiriiiis: wanted to comment
on this precisely...
ScnWrt: The feeding idea
is a responsibility, a key to emancipation
panta98: That's exactly what
emancipation is about; not feeding starving children, but
changing stones into life,
ScnWrt: The feeding
ScnWrt: It's about both,
franz
ScnWrt: Franz
ScnWrt: Ask a starving kid
about alchemy
panta98: I have the same
chance to become a trillionaire, by washing all the plates of
Venezuela than to reach emancipation
by feeding 5 billion starving paupers.
panta98: I'll have no zillisecond
left to act and think for myself.
iiiiriiiis: especially at
Christmas or other religious "events" everybody all of a sudden
"cares" about a manifestation
of a certain relation we already have identified...
ScnWrt: You can help create
a system that will end the cause of starvation
panta98: Who all want to
create this system? I know a very few, apart from us!
panta98: What are the chances
of this few?
iiiiriiiis: and as Franz
put it, from 6am to 6pm nobody doesn't care a _ about it, but rather
they are interesed in perpetuating
the same relations that contribute to it...
panta98: Do we not have had
enough about systems?
ScnWrt: Franz, because it's
key to survival of humanity
iiiiriiiis: ...lying, discriminating,
exploiting the nearest, seemingly "loved ones" ...
panta98: Carl, humanity exists
as much as Valhallah.
ScnWrt: By system, I mean
ways of doing things
panta98: Method?
panta98: Modus operandi
et vivendi?
ScnWrt: humanity; other human
beings
iiiiriiiis: human beings
- I'm scared!
ScnWrt: One method, Tesla
free energy for entire world
panta98: Which method, or
method of doing things are different out there?
iiiiriiiis: none, Franz!
ScnWrt: These methods need
to be deeveloped
iiiiriiiis: just various
levels of the same pervertion. more or less covered...
panta98: Who seriously sat
down, reflected, thought, did an innovative method of
acting, thinking and reasoning?
panta98: is this not a sine
qua non for emancipation?
ScnWrt: Franz Fanon did
panta98: Again knocked-out,
Carl. TKO!
panta98: I give up!!!!
ScnWrt: There are many remarkable
people out there-We'll find them on the Internet
panta98: He proposed "counter-violence",
iiiiriiiis: And how was his
relation to Nature, e.g.? Franz? To Labour-Process ?
iiiiriiiis: thank you
panta98: Franz Lee and Schachtman
suggested: Neither Peace Nor War!
panta98: The only problem
was: Schachtman did not know what he was talking about.
iiiiriiiis: Are you sugesting
that we should log-in to some chats on Microsoft, Carl?
iiiiriiiis: and go for them?
ScnWrt: Browder wanted peace
and
war
panta98: Franz Lee surely
does.
iiiiriiiis: do we have the
time?
iiiiriiiis: why should we
search for anybody in the first place?
ScnWrt: Iris, not Microsoft
iiiiriiiis: ok, ICQ?
iiiiriiiis: MIRC?
iiiiriiiis: YAHOO?
panta98: Frantz Fanon chose
war, but its negation, Counter-War!
iiiiriiiis: others?
ScnWrt: Iris, we need diverse
talents
iiiiriiiis: aren't WE "enough
talents"?
iiiiriiiis: Why more?
ScnWrt: e.g., to build free
energy dervices
iiiiriiiis: why 1000
panta98: Khaaallliiiddd!!!!
iiiiriiiis: aren't we? the
excellent free energy?
iiiiriiiis: ?
iiiiriiiis: Franz?
iiiiriiiis: Khalid?
iiiiriiiis: still around?
frogmobile: I ammmm heeeeeeerrrre!!!
frogmobile: following
panta98: Is he gone? Doing
Baby-Sitting? Teaching Emancipation in the Cradle?
iiiiriiiis: why quantitaively
have we to be "many"?
frogmobile: thinking in my
own "ozone-free' way
iiiiriiiis: why, in the extreme,
not just US?
ScnWrt: Iris, please visit
the Nikola Tesla sites. Read Bill Lyne's book Pentagon
Aliens from amazon.com for
$20USA.
iiiiriiiis: I'll do, Carl.
The books just arrived. We got them now.
iiiiriiiis: no I'm listening.
ScnWrt: We don't.
frogmobile: Sorry guys I
have to go the gym to liberate my mind from all the "smog" of
the day
iiiiriiiis: Franz, Carl,
Khalid, please proceed.
ScnWrt: We don't have to
be many. We may need some more talents
panta98: What and where do
I go from where I am currently? Should I give-up?
Sleep-in for the day? take
a cool Martin Polar Beer, fumar un cigarillo, toma un jugo
de mora or toma un cafe.
Que mas hay que ser? ...
frogmobile: fight for yourself
first
panta98: These orgy of questions
are important for a start. Now lets get the ball going?
What do we suggest? The key
in understanding all these variables is first all to ask
should I or should I not
relate what is happening to me myself. Why should I? Why
should Inot? ...
ScnWrt: Franz, do all of
these things.
iiiiriiiis: No, no reason
to give up, agreed, Khalid.
panta98: Any answers? Are
the symptoms of the world's crisis also a symptoms of a
personal crisis. How can
I differentiate or divorce what is happening around the world
from myself? Are there any,
many or just one explanation to the answers? ...
ScnWrt: Franz, why do you
think you need to fight for yourself?
ScnWrt: Many questions, Franz
frogmobile: its too complicated
for a chat
panta98: Carl. I don't fight.
I'm not a fighter. I transcended fighting. Now, ask me, what
I mean by this?
panta98: To fight is to participate
in the strive of the opposites, in war.
iiiiriiiis: yes, Khalid.
panta98: Fighting is action,
is motion. it's the inner force of a totality,
ScnWrt: However, we better
find a way to prevent NWO destruction of Africa, or the
entire world will be destroyed
panta98: Now, to fight, is
to strengthen that Behemoth, that Leviathan. he needs a fight
dearly.
panta98: he would die, if
he can't get a fight, terrorism, a War with Hussein, etc.
panta98: No fight is his
end; I obligue him, by not fighting, so that he can perish once and
for all.
iiiiriiiis: Africa already,
unfortunately is wretched, smashed down, Carl. and not only
Africa...
ScnWrt: I'm referring to
struggle with the pen
iiiiriiiis: Carl, my problem
is:
iiiiriiiis: Who will understand
what you are trying to say?
frogmobile: guys sorry man!I
have to go I will read the rest, our recreation centre
closes in one hour
ScnWrt: Not smashed down
yet. North Africa: Egypt, Morroco, etc. is viable
iiiiriiiis: Maybe those who
read aren't even interested?
panta98: Don't you see in
what a miserable situation Global capitalism, the NWO, finds
itself? It eliminated its
Negation, and now its decaying, fading away into the galaxies.
iiiiriiiis: ok Khalid, take
care!
frogmobile: good nighttttttt
iiiiriiiis: see you next
tuesday.
panta98: OK, Guy!!!
iiiiriiiis: good night, it
was a pleasure!
frogmobile: bye
frogmobile has left the room.
panta98: Back to the Fight
of the Millennium , carl!
ScnWrt: Gute nacht, Khalid
ScnWrt: Wa alaikum salaam
ScnWrt: Proceed, Franz
panta98: I thought that the
human being, humanity, is peace-loving, so why should we
fight?
ScnWrt: I mean struggle by
the pen. Humanity isn't tranquile
panta98: The USA, the Vatican,
the Pentagon, the UNO, all have peace corps, want
world peace. So, why should
I fight?
iiiiriiiis: Yes, the "peace"
they enjoy, that's "peace", one even doesn't have to "fight"
for it -since peace already
exists as DDDD
panta98: Oh! I see, the Pen
is Mightier Than The Sword! Well, that's my element!
ScnWrt: The peace corps consists
of some great people, but it is used in good guy-bad
guy games
panta98: Even Jesus Christ
wanted to fight: he said: I did not come to bring Peace, but
the Sword, Fire!!! That was
a "terrorist".
panta98: But, you see, carl.
What happens with "fighters", they get crucified. I don't
like that idea.
panta98: Also, poor Giordano
Bruno tried to fight with the Feather, and still the
Inquisition burnt him on
Fire, on the Stake.
ScnWrt: Agreed, Franz.
panta98: Anything or Anybody
who Fights against this system gets burnt,burnt very
badly!
panta98: With Love and Peace,
we don't get far either.
ScnWrt: But he/she who transcends
and transforms this system doesn't get burned
ScnWrt: and influences change
panta98: So many loving and
peaceful peoples, for example, those in colonial Africa,
had to believe in their love
to the Europeans, and their Peace treaties with them, they
were exterminated.
panta98: So, neither war
nor Peace does the job!
iiiiriiiis: ...because they
are doing their job already
panta98: But, that's only
part of the "job", la lutta continua, but not as "lutta", as
Transcendence, as Surpassing,
as Txcellence, as Emancipation.
panta98: And this method,
this way of doing and thinking things, is arduous,extremely
difficult, this is, as you
said, what we're trying to do and to think.
panta98: And, of all the
people I know, you are doing an excellent "job".
ScnWrt: Thank you, Franz
panta98: Yes, carl. I mean
it!
ScnWrt: I respect your work
tremendously
iiiiriiiis: The problem is,
Carl, that the readers can't see you, because to seee beauty
presupposes beauty on the
other side. And I mean it too, Carl.
panta98: Me too, Carl. iris,
Jutta, Stella and I always praise you for your tremendous
work in our discussions.
iris can confirm this!
iiiiriiiis: Needless to mention,
Carl.
iiiiriiiis: This is what
we have years and years tried to "construct", struggling and fighting for
but
we got nowhere.
panta98: Poor Jutta is waiting
for me. On this kind note, I suggest that we end here for
today, to storm new "heavens"
tomorrow!
iiiiriiiis: Then, suddenly,
you appeared.
iiiiriiiis: Ok, I too have
to go to sleep urgently. Carl and Franz, as always, it was a
pleasure. I enjoyed the heated
debate.
panta98: May I say Gute Nacht!!
ScnWrt: Thank you, Iris.
I enjoy working with you.
ScnWrt: Gute nacht, Iris
iiiiriiiis: The pleasure
is mine, Carl.
iiiiriiiis: Gute Nacht, Carl.
ScnWrt has left the room.
iiiiriiiis has left the room.