p a n d e m o n i u m
                      TUESDAY NIGHT AOL CHAT
                         (Carl, Khalid, Iris & Franz)
      Topic:What is Rmancipation? What Is To Be Done?

June 20th, 2000



You have just entered room "panta98 Chat40."

     ScnWrt has entered the room.
     iiiiriiiis: Hello, Carl!
     ScnWrt: Hi, Franz and Iris
     iiiiriiiis: Glad you could make it! How are
     you today?
     panta98: Hi! Carl!
    ......
     panta98: Well, should we proceed?
     iiiiriiiis: Yes, better let's proceed, Franz. Anyhow, Khalid will get the transcript later.
     ScnWrt: Ja, Franz
     iiiiriiiis: Bitte, Franz.
     panta98: Well, you both received my suggestions for the chat tonight, which basically were formulated by Khalid and you, Carl. We need not repeat them here. However, as we chat along, I'll remind you of our central endeavours.
     iiiiriiiis: Ok, Franz.
     panta98: Let me summarize our topic, our deliberations. To ease editing later, please, be somehow systematic, to the point, and keep the "red thread". Our theme is straightforward: "What is to be done to build an emancipatory world?"
     panta98: Living in a world, as portrayed by our "daily news", and given the knowledge accumulated through our own experiences and practices including the study of the lectures and debates the question begs for an answer, well! What's next? ...
     panta98: How do we feel about everything around us? How do we respond to the information overload as reported in the media and other sources? Where do we stand? How should were act? How do we apply the theoretical knowledge to the information
given? ...
     panta98: It is sufficient to make us feel okay in our interpretations or whatever we choose to do with the information? Should we feel sad, disgruntled, impotent, useless,  helpless?Finally, can we justify a feeling of dread, fear, hopelessness, guilt or
permanent apathy? ...
     panta98: So, where should we begin, to do something, to emancipate ourselves?
     panta98: The floor is open for the debate.
     panta98: Any suggestions?
     ScnWrt: We ned to cut through all this - understand the change in economic relations
     iiiiriiiis: Well, I would like to suggest, that we have a look at the "information
     overload" first...
     panta98: I think we should first clarify what "information" is?
     ScnWrt: The lumpenproletariat runs things.
     panta98: And whether we are being informed at all? What do you think, Carl?
     panta98: Yes, Carl. I fell in love with that beauty of an article of mine. It clarifies many a thing.
     ScnWrt: I think we are being diverted by a NWO-created infomation overload
     panta98: I think it is the Lumpenilluminati, the Lumpenintelligentsia and the
     Lumpenbourgeoisie.
     ScnWrt: They are all lumpen!
     panta98: Iris, how is the information-factory in Germany?
     panta98: Yes, Carl.
     ScnWrt: From Brecht's Dreigroschenopfer, they rose to the top.
     ScnWrt: Mack der Messer is Big Brother (seriously) .
     panta98: I was thinking about Brecht's work when I wrote the article. I also now
     understand what he wanted to portray there.
     ScnWrt: So did Ernst Busch.
     panta98: Yes, Mack The Knife is Big Brother!
     panta98: But, the problem is not exactly the lumpen-upper-classes, ...
     ScnWrt: We get an overload of conflicting information to screw up priorities.
     panta98: The "problem" is  the "masses" whom we are supposed to "conscientize", to "emancipate".  ...
     panta98: How are we going to find solidarity in a lumpen-environment?
     iiiiriiiis: The problem with "information" is: if we take, for example, the so-called news that is on my mind and on our own, then, we have to relate the data, because seemingly, what  happens on the economic, political, social, natural level, has no relation whatsoever to the way how it is being "reported", and taught...
     panta98: Are not many of these "luumpen" on Internet?
     ScnWrt: Yep!
     ScnWrt: and on CNN !
     ScnWrt:  ... in the media !
     panta98: I visited the "Spirit and Soul" delphi site, with over 5 000 messages. I could not 'believe' what I read in the introduction, less so the contributions.
     panta98: I nearly became a staunch "believer"; information nearly converted me.

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     iiiiriiiis: I still haven't visited the site, Franz...
     ScnWrt: Agreed, Franz. Mind Control. Confused priorities.
     panta98: Read the introductory message, Iris, and then you'll turn back home, to
     Pandemonium!
     ScnWrt: Iris, I invited the host of Spirituality to visit Revelations. He didn't even comment.
     panta98: And such pages, receive thousands of visits.
     iiiiriiiis: Yes, give me the URL later, please.
     panta98: I sent it to you, under the heading our Delphi Forums, a week ago, Iris.
     iiiiriiiis: Franz and Carl, did you receive my comment above?
     iiiiriiiis: Ok Franz, I'll check on it.
     panta98: Yes, Iris. I'll comment just now!
     iiiiriiiis: Thank you, Franz.
     ScnWrt: Iris, news is created to distort priorities and divert attention from significant issues
     ScnWrt: The news media is a circus.
     panta98: Iris, firstly, the Tageschau is a collection of carefully selected individual
     news items, flashed like lightning, where the individual themes have no relation to
     each other; in fact, it is a scientific method, to destroy thinking capacity. ...
     iiiiriiiis: And Franz, have a look at www.geekforce.org .
     panta98: The objective is not to inform, not to give news, but to test a certain
     experimentation of mind and thought control.
     panta98: In other words, how to inform the "masses", so that they will never ever be informed again.
     panta98: I will, Carl.
     ScnWrt: Iris, geekforce is on target.
     panta98: In any case, if we have to receive relevant news of all important things which
     happen on earth, then we would need 365 hours a day, to cope with it all.
     iiiiriiiis: On target, Carl, what does it mean, please?
     panta98: So, in any case, to inform about things which happen within 24 hours on a
     global scale, from the point go is nonsense.
     iiiiriiiis: Yes, Franz, but I think quantitatively...
     ScnWrt: Iris, Highly appropriate
     panta98: Thus News is not new, is not "news"; it is one of the methods of indoctrination and
     manipulation.
     iiiiriiiis: A quantitative "overload".... thank you, Carl.
     panta98: However, the question is: (our central theme) How Can We Be Informed
     About Emancipatory Issues?
     panta98: Furthermore, what is information? A zillion isolated data, the so-called
     "facts"?
     iiiiriiiis: I fear there is no information whatsoever available, Franz - taking in
     consideration what you have just pointed out.
     iiiiriiiis: No information about emancipatory issues.
     panta98: Which "information" do we need to live, to act, to think, to excel, to
     emancipate ourselves?
     ScnWrt: We must create the emancipatory issues
     panta98: Do we really need "information", as this concept is being understood in social
     education?
     ScnWrt: We need understanding
     ScnWrt: Study language-How words express thinking and ideas.
     panta98: That the Soviet Union was neither socialist nor capitalist, nor emancipatory, to this conclusion I came 40 years ago, with a minimum of "information". I wrote that, and
     "history" has proven my "information" as having been highly "satisfactory".
     iiiiriiiis: In the sense of "social education" surely not, Franz. You just pointed out the method of this type and the means of "information".
     ScnWrt: Which words are used as mind control triggers?
     panta98: Word No.1: The human being!
     panta98: We are all human beings!
     panta98: Any comments about this ideological word?
     iiiiriiiis: Yes, also what you wrote on Africa some 20 years ago, predicting what will
     happen under certain circumstances with Mandela.
     ScnWrt: Franz, I knew that the Soviet Union was planning to switch to capitalism in
     1950...
     ScnWrt: from emigree students at CUNY.
     panta98: Yes, till today, the South Africans wonder, how did he know it? They call me a sangoma, a witch-doctor!!
     panta98: The trouble is and was, Carl, that I took Socialism seriously, and I knew and know exactly what it is supposed to be. ...
     ScnWrt: I knew what was going to happen with Mandella 20 years ago on BBC,
     Shortwave Radio (Grundig)
     panta98: When I received a minimum quantity of data, "information", and when I put 2 and 3 and 8 together, I came to the conclusion, that what was happening there, was happening all over --- simply crude, cruel capitalism. As simple as that!
     panta98: I just need to look at a revolutionary, how he treats his girl-friend or women in general, to know that he is a farce.
     panta98: I don't need to study his works, to see whether he is a liberal or Trotskyite!
     ScnWrt: Monopolistic, manipulative capitalism, not free entrpise.
     iiiiriiiis: On the human being...! Aristoteles, Plato, Kant, Montesquieu, Voltaire etc. didn't
     leave any doubt on who is a "human being" - and we also discussed in our previous
     chats the core of the matter, the essence of a "human being" is as a result of a by-product
     called "history"  which leads to an explaination of what is the Labour Process...
     panta98: I just need to read a few lines about somebody, see his attitude to Nature,
     then I know who and what he is.
     ScnWrt: Camus said a true rebel always defends the executed, never the executioners
     panta98: Ask Iris, everytime, they have a new book in their hands, and they ask my
     opinion: I look at the title, the contents, read two sentences of the introduction, and
     then I tell them to throw the rubbish into the fire.
     iiiiriiiis: Yes, Franz. It's true.
     panta98: Yes, Iris, and what is the next catch-word, Carl?
     iiiiriiiis: "catch-word?" Franz?
     ScnWrt: Franz and Iris: Listen to short wave radio. Lots of independent thinking as
     well as rubbish.
     iiiiriiiis: just let me read back one minute, I think I lost an important point while typing...
     panta98: Carl, that's true, but, what would happen when Camus defends NEITHER the executioner NOR the executed? Will he then still be a rebel, or would he be on the
     straight Don Albert Road to Emancipation?
     ScnWrt: Depends on the circumstances, Franz.
     panta98: Which circumstances, Carl?
     iiiiriiiis: Oh, Carl, I don't have any radio ...
     panta98: I'll buy you one, when you get pensioned, Irislein!
     ScnWrt: The French-Algerian war
     ScnWrt: Please buy Iris a Grundig.
     iiiiriiiis: ahhh, so, so! then you'll never have to buy one, my dear.
     panta98: And where did it end? Carl. What happened to the executioners? And how
     many are being executed now in Algeria?
     ScnWrt: You can listen to short wave radio on the web-BBC, etc.
     panta98: What did Ben Bella and Frantz Fanon fight for? For what did Fanon die?
     panta98: And the Vietnamese? And the Chinese? And the Russian Red Guard?
     ScnWrt: I use a Grundig to get broadcasts fast.
     ScnWrt: They all fought for global capitalism.
     panta98: I have a huge Grundig Shortwave here, all meter bands! A Satellite!
     panta98: I even have a small Grundig Short Wave; it stands in San Onofre, only iris
     never has time to listen to the radio; she looks at the Venezuelan novelas. :-)
     ScnWrt: I have the latest top of the line Grundig - Uses Tesla. Technology - Outstandin Clarity.
     panta98: Yes, I know, Carl. I've been listening to Grundig Shortwave since 1962.
     ScnWrt: I watch the novellas on Cable TV.
     iiiiriiiis: I think Franz made an interesting point a few moments ago, Carl, regarding
     the question on how "theory" and "praxis" of the rebels were interrelated, i.e....! In what way their lives, their actions had to with what they fought for on a politic-economic-social level.
     panta98: Iris, still around? The Novelas just begun!!!
     iiiiriiiis: Sure Franz, I'm here!
     panta98: Agreed, Iris!
     iiiiriiiis: You just do me the favour and consider, PLEASE...
     iiiiriiiis:... , that my English is as slowly "burning" as my brains ; )
     iiiiriiiis: This is my problem here in the chats.
     ScnWrt: Most of the rebels were opportunists - fought for themselves.
     panta98: What happened to all the revolutionary students of 60's? What did their acts
     and thoughts had to do with Emancipation?
     panta98: Exactly, Carl.
     iiiiriiiis: Or by the way, for example, what did Guevara think about women?
     iiiiriiiis: KKK
     panta98: But, how should we see, treat and confront the world around us?
     iiiiriiiis: Kinder Küche Kirche
     ScnWrt: They became corporate board members.
     ScnWrt: Michael Harrington abused women.
     ScnWrt: That was the thinking of many men in their generation.
     panta98: The truth of the matter is, that what they did, thought, and ended up with, is exactly what was and will always be "emancipation". Now, I want us to differentiate, to debate, what Emancipation means for us. Any suggestions?
     ScnWrt: Emancipation means we reap rewards and survive based entirely on our
     contributions in exchange with others.
     panta98: Yes, Che dedicated only about 4 pages to women, and told them exactly where their emancipatory place should be: in the Kueche, producing Kinder, and then to take them to Church which teaches them Theology of Liberation.
     iiiiriiiis: But which kind of exchange, Carl? And for whom?
     panta98: In all the 100 volumes of the works of Marx, Engels, Lenin and Trotsky, only one volume would fill what they essentially had said about or to women. However, I must add: Respectively, they were sweet to Jenny, Krupskaya and Natascha!!!
     iiiiriiiis: And on Marx..
     iiiiriiiis: ha! that's what I mean...
     ScnWrt: That was their culture, guys.
     panta98: Is culture something worth cultivating, Carl?
     iiiiriiiis: Do you think, Carl, there is a difference, a different culture today? "Culture" I never understood this term, no one can explain the meaning to me.
     panta98: Can we use culture to emancipate ourselves?
     ScnWrt: Iris, we and others become and exchange the means of production and
     distribution
     panta98: And then, what kind of culture, treating what?
     panta98: I think the means of production should not be "exchanged", they should be
     "extirpated", expelled out of the next zillion galaxies.
     panta98: Production is Labour, is DDDD, so what has it to do with Emancipation?
     panta98: Zillions of creatures lived millions and billions of years ago, without
     production.
     ScnWrt: I'm not referring to that kind of production. Is output a better word?
     panta98: I think that the first thing to be done, is to emancipate ourselves from
     Production.
     panta98: Well, output comes from Labour, from Work, carl.
     ScnWrt: Agreed. Change what we do and contribute
     frogmobile has entered the room.
     panta98: I understand what you mean, it's difficult to formulate.
     ScnWrt: Chomskywas right. We ned to use different words
     iiiiriiiis: Hello, Khalid!
     frogmobile: Hi guys my apologies
     frogmobile: hello Iris
     panta98: Not only words, innovative methods of thinking and reasoning.
     ScnWrt: Hi,. Khalid. How are you feeling?
     iiiiriiiis: ..and mobile statistics...
     panta98: Then we can fill any word vessel with our thought "products", and we know
     exactly what we say, what we mean.
     ScnWrt: and mobile interactions and exchanges
     frogmobile: Quite okay. How are you Carl?
     ScnWrt: OK
     iiiiriiiis: Yes, Carl!
     frogmobile: What are we discussing?
     panta98: This is exactly what we are trying to do in our San Onofre discussions, taking
     weeks to find a word, to fill it with new contents, to keep it at rest, to move it, neither to
     do this, nor to do other things, etc.
     panta98: Hi! Guy! You are mobile. We're discussing your questions!
     iiiiriiiis: Carl, Franz, could you give Khalid a short overview please...
     iiiiriiiis: Indeed, Franz!
     frogmobile: Okay! let's proceed
     iiiiriiiis: And sometimes we just hauen gegen einen Balken, übersetze das bitte, Franz
     ScnWrt: What is mancipation? What is to be done to achieve it?
     frogmobile: have you guys make any inroads to th equestions
     panta98: Khalid, we're reflecting on your questions, discussing how to do emancipatory
     things.
     panta98: We are analyzing "doing", then we'll discuss "thinking", and then "doing and
     thinking".
     frogmobile: Alright! Is there a way how we can do things differently but yet make an
     impact through our actions that could promote consciousness.
     panta98: At the moment we are looking at "culture".
     iiiiriiiis: e-man-cipation... ex-labour-cipation... and the various methods of acting,
     thinking, reasoning...
     panta98: I'll paste for you what I said.
     iiiiriiiis: please do so, Franz
     frogmobile: What is Culture? How do we or can we define it?
     ScnWrt: Listen to short wave radio on the web. Lots of emancipatory stuff.
     iiiiriiiis: there we go again, Khalid, this precisely was one of the questions which
     raised...
     ScnWrt: Culture is what a group of people do every day
     panta98: Is culture something worth cultivating, Carl?
     panta98: Can we use culture to emancipate ourselves?
     frogmobile: Carl through the internet you can access most of the radio stations around
     the world much easier
     ScnWrt: Yep, binds people together to achieve common goal
     panta98: And then, what kind of culture, treating what? I think the means of production
     should not be "exchanged", they should be "extirpated", expelled out of the next
     zillion galaxies.
     frogmobile: But first we have to define Culture.
     panta98: Production is Labour, is DDDD, so what has it to do with Emancipation?
     panta98: Zillions of creatures lived millions and billions of years ago, without
     production.
     ScnWrt: Khalid, that's why I refrrd to the web.
     panta98: Production is Labour, is DDDD, so what has it to do with Emancipation? Zillions of
     creatures lived millions and billions of years ago, without production.
     ScnWrt: I use a short wave radio when ther's net congestion
     panta98: OK, now you have an idea, what we were dealing just now! Any comments?
     frogmobile: Okay Carl
     ScnWrt: Also, I don't want to tie up my computer with radio when Fran wants to use it
     frogmobile: that sounds reasonable Carl
     panta98 has left the room.
     ScnWrt: For millions of years, humans have been producing and exchanging output to
     survive
     frogmobile: There is a sound of silence....!
     ScnWrt: Franz got disconnected
     iiiiriiiis: please, Khalid, Carl, proceed. I'm listening. Kahlid, did you get the posting of
     Franz - one of the last comments by him?
     frogmobile: Okay! How does the process of survival impact the creation of culture?
     iiiiriiiis: ...on production, etc... ok.
     iiiiriiiis: Khalid, I asked before, if anybody could explain to me the "meaning" of this
     term, I don't understand it. What is mend by "culture" --?
     ScnWrt: People agree on what they need to do to survive
     ScnWrt: survive
     frogmobile: It is very complex and difficult term that has been used from time to time
     for many things.
     ScnWrt: within the constraints of their envionment
     iiiiriiiis: To me, it's sort of a synonym for "civilization" - and yes, indeed, it is used for
     quite everything. Multi-cultural society... what is "multi" in this?
     iiiiriiiis: ..invited Franz
     frogmobile: What is interesting is how the individual cultural traits have been
     influenced and developed as a form of dogma
     frogmobile: that instead become very opressive and dictatorial
     panta98 has entered the room.
     iiiiriiiis: ...reinvited...
     iiiiriiiis: Hello again, Franz.
     ScnWrt: It was formed by opportunists and a lazy common folk afraid of responsibility
     ScnWrt: Franz
     iiiiriiiis: we are still on "culture", Franz...
     panta98: Well, Guys! A Mini-Black-Out! An electricity power-cut thre me offline! I had
     to re-boot!
     panta98: Anyhow, let's march on!
     ScnWrt: White-out?
     iiiiriiiis: caramba! once more.
     ScnWrt: Let's call outages white-outs
     panta98: Yes, "Bad" things are always "Black"; a White-Out, would be to drink
     Whiskey On The Rocks with Hillary!
     ScnWrt: with Monica
     frogmobile: In each particular enviornment workers have become source of
     indoctrintation but at the same time they developed certain spiritual, material
     interpretation or analysis in explaining their existence which was later translated as "culture."
     panta98: OK! Let's leave theculture of vintage!
     frogmobile: Let' s define its importance or significance
     ScnWrt: To understand culture, let's review why people of the same culture form a
     common crowd symbol (Cannetti)
     frogmobile: Should we be concerned about it (culture)?
     frogmobile: People are inherently lonely
     frogmobile: As a result they love to belong to something to feel secure
     ScnWrt: Khalid, yes. It has been used to define the crowd-avoid responsibility
     ScnWrt: to be led like sheep
     frogmobile: The sense of belonging has been an inherent trait of many of us
     frogmobile: without it many of us feel kaput
     ScnWrt: dogma, religion and culture are interrelated
     ScnWrt: Until a kultukampf occurs-then all goes kaput
     panta98: Given the context of all what is happening and the knowledge accumulated
     through our own experiences and practices including the study of the lectures and
     debates the question begs for an answer, well! What's next? ... Why discuss about
     culture??
     frogmobile: this exactly explains as the longevity of religions
     frogmobile: Okay guy
     frogmobile: So lets answer the question posed
     panta98: How do I feel over everything around me? How do I respond to the
     information overload as reported in the media and other sources? Where do I stand?
     How should I react? How do I apply the theoretical knowledge to the information
     given? ...
     ScnWrt: franz, because culture defines what people we do
     panta98: Which people, Carl? And, in how far do the actions of "those" people affect
     us?
     frogmobile: Okay probably we can divorce culture from the scheme of things and lets
     see what conclusion we can reach
     ScnWrt: will do ...Hence, we need to help them build emancipatory cultures
     panta98: Now, you are talking!!!
     panta98: Does culture go together with emancipation? Are they not like oil and water?
     frogmobile: Contradictory
     ScnWrt: They go together. The individual doesn't live in a vaccum.
     panta98: Carl, why should we help them, "those" people?
     frogmobile: They are different
     frogmobile: curture is oppresive
     frogmobile: Culture is not defined by me but by someone else
     ScnWrt: Khalid, it can be emancipatory
     frogmobile: which I am "forced" to follow and "accept"
     panta98: Was not culture the master key to distribute misinformation, indoctrination,
     manipulation and control?
     iiiiriiiis: Franz, I think we just came to the conclusion, that we call it is culture, civilization,
     production process, labour process - all various aspects or the same "history". Maybe
     several levels -
     frogmobile: Franz, I agree
     ScnWrt: Building a mobile Internet culture which evolves through mutual consent
     panta98: Khalid, what does Hindu culture teach a woman/ Anything emancipatory in
     that? So why discuss the rubbish>
     frogmobile: Yep! What of Islamic?
     panta98: Who are you, when you are a cultured person?
     panta98: I think a nut, eating do'nuts!
     frogmobile: We should not confuse culture from costoms
     frogmobile: That is why I said it is oppressive since it is defined and practised by others
     panta98: Customs are subordinate to Culture. Cultures priduce custums. Customs don't
     create cultures. The ruling classes do.
     ScnWrt: I'm referring the development of new, different, mobile cultures, not ossified
     customs
     panta98: ... produce customs ...
     frogmobile: and in order to belong we follow
     panta98: Any proletarian culture around?
     ScnWrt: We need to change all that
     frogmobile: I understand Carl however I just wanted to make a differentation between
     the two
     panta98: And do the Lords consider more than 5 billion "human beings" to be cultured?
     ScnWrt: Th current culture is lumpen
     panta98: So, why bother about culture?
     frogmobile: perfecto guys, bang on, proceed
     panta98: Let's get down to emancipation, the antidote to "culture", "customs" and
     "civilization".
     frogmobile: Now becareful with the concept emancipation
     panta98: I still don't know what the essence of emancipation is! Can anybody in-form
     me?
     frogmobile: What is it to emancipate? Emancipate from whom? How?
     panta98: How am I going to emancipate myself, when I don't even know what it is, why
     "man" appeares in it, in the word!
     ScnWrt: The essence of emancipation is a meld of individuation and mutual consent
     panta98: I don't trust things like man, wo-man, e-man-cipation!
     panta98: Mutual from where, Carl? From the "lumpen", from "Monica"?
     frogmobile: okay guys to avoid semantics lets get to the beef of the concept
     ScnWrt: I think you don't trust the ideas. The words are insignificangt
     ScnWrt: insignificant
     iiiiriiiis: (In this context, I remember what you wrote on the Anden-lady on the painting of
     Pico
     Bolivar on how "natural-social" relation is transformed, or better yet de-formed,
     gutted and squeezed into the labour process... (to the above...) -)
     panta98: But, the semantics was the first step to de-emancipate you, Khalid!
     panta98: What did your Mom tell you to say first, and what to associate with it?
     panta98: At least, something that begun with M.
     ScnWrt: Agreed, Franz. That's what Chomsky says
     frogmobile: Franz, emancipate has many conotations, political, social, religious,
     emotional, economic, ..........!
     frogmobile: But she is 'right" she is mamamamamamamamamamam
     frogmobile: ha! ha! ha!
     panta98: Man, Mom, Mama, ,,, and so you forgot Nature, forgot your Mon-Key
     existence.
     ScnWrt: Agreed, Khalid, but it begins with ideas
     panta98: ma(n)ma(n)ma(n) .....
     frogmobile: is it that significant
     panta98: Yes, Khalid. Does not emancipation begin in the cradle?
     panta98: Or should we do it now, after 40, 60, 100 ?
     ScnWrt: During our discussion of culture, I tried to focus on changing the idea, not
     preserving the word
     panta98: Where did indoctrination begin, not there?
     panta98: However, let's leave semantics, what is emancipation?
     panta98: Why do I want to emancipate myself in the first place/
     frogmobile: Now let's jump away from the cradle,  "I" have defined myself
     already as "emancipated,"  now, I expect some "trashing" from you guys........!
     ScnWrt: Franz, emancipation must begin everywhere
     panta98: Carl, but, why emancipation?
     frogmobile: the concept cannot be restricted in a particular "language" or
     "interpretation" it goes beyond the "dogmas."
     panta98: Do we want to be irreal? Do we want to leave reality? Why?
     ScnWrt: Franz, for the survival of humanity
     iiiiriiiis: Essence of emancipation...Nature, Cosmos, Being, Acts, Acting - Existance of
     emancipaton... Thoughts, Thinking, Theory, Einai.... (i.e. relation of Acting a n d
     Thinking ) ? Transcendance of Emancipation ? Franz, sorry, but I'm out......! Can you
     please try to indicate on which degree we are discussing? I missed the boat and
     completely.
     frogmobile: Lets get to the answer. I must admit it willl take me 5 to 10 minutes to
     define it in words
     ScnWrt: Khalid, that I was trying to do
     iiiiriiiis: Take your time, Khalid.
     panta98: Mankind discovered the secret how to survive: to dominate and exploit
     Nature, to dominate and discriminate against each other. To Work, to Labour! That's how
     Mankind survives. Why, then Emancipation?
     panta98: Is Labour or Work not effective for survival? In that case, I agree,
     Emancipation should be tested!
     ScnWrt: Franz, without Emancipation, the NWO will try to destroy Africa, and Africa
     will take revenge
     frogmobile: as for 'mankind' we totally understand; but for US then it means something else
     ScnWrt: The entire human race will be destroyed
     iiiiriiiis: the race, yes.
     panta98: Some parts of Mankind survive in an excellent fashion; another parts
     vegetate on the bread line. Who should be emancipated?
     ScnWrt: Emancipation=survival
     frogmobile: Emancipation is necessary on an individual basis in terms of thinking,
     acting.......!
     ScnWrt: Agreed, Khalid
     panta98: Agreed, Khalid. My old question; How am I going to emancipate anything or
     anyone, when I can't even emancipate myself?
     panta98: When I do not even know how to act, how to think, how to excel?
     panta98: So, what are we doing, what is emancipatory doing>
     frogmobile: I can! and I have, since I am pretty sure of Who am I? What am I ? and
     What's Next.
     panta98: What are we doing from 6.00 AM to 6.00 PM? Anything for Emancipation?
     ScnWrt: Franz, we are exploring emancipatory thinking our chats
     panta98: if so, then what?
     panta98: Yes, Carl. There you got me, check-mate!
     frogmobile: I 'll be back in a un minuto
     panta98: What are we doing in our chats?
     panta98: What have our chats got to do with doing, Iris?
     iiiiriiiis: das frage ich mich gerade auch.
     panta98: Is it perhaps, that we take the "time" which we do not have, to chat with each
     other for two hours?
     ScnWrt: We are asking the right questions
     panta98: regularly, with discipline?
     panta98: Is it that we can organize it at all?
     frogmobile: These are just merely philosophical probes we need.....to concretized the
     concept
     frogmobile: "emancipation from mental slavery"
     frogmobile: As Bob Marley said
     frogmobile: oops! are  you guys lost
     ScnWrt: lost?
     panta98 has left the room.
     iiiiriiiis: no, Khalid, thinking... sorry.
     ScnWrt: Listening
     frogmobile: I am doing the same I am reviewing some of the comments
     ScnWrt: I think that responsibility and doing things for others are key to emancipifying
     ourselves
     ScnWrt: Please proceed, Khalid
     frogmobile: I am thinking on how to respond to your comments
     iiiiriiiis: I really do have serious problems on combining the comments, and detecting on
     which level/degree of the discussion to make any comment, sorry,
     gentlemen...invited Franz
     panta98 has entered the room.
     iiiiriiiis: Hello again, Franz.
     frogmobile: Probably before we do things for others and the reason why we do it is a
     sign of emancipation
     frogmobile: Would that be correct Carl
     ScnWrt: Also, how the others react, Khalid
     frogmobile: that's alright Iris
     panta98: Today Internet/AOL behave, CANTV (telephone) is excellent, now CADELA
     (electricity) runs wild. Poor Third World!
     iiiiriiiis: I'm sorry, Franz.
     ScnWrt: No tengo problema, Iris
     iiiiriiiis: Yo si.
     ScnWrt: Bad scene, Franz
     iiiiriiiis: pero please, proceed, I'm listening
     panta98: KHALID, WHAT'S THIS ABOUT DOING THINGS FOR OTHERS?
     panta98: Iris, save the chat, I lost two parts!
     iiiiriiiis: Yes, don't worry, Franz.
     ScnWrt: I referred to doing things for others as a key to emancipation
     iiiiriiiis: Ok, Carl, Who are the "others"? Which others?
     panta98: Any "others", or a selected "others", also for the "lumpen"?
     iiiiriiiis: Why OTHERS
     ScnWrt: e.g., I am saving the chat transcript in parts
     iiiiriiiis: thank you, Carl.
     ScnWrt: The others that we come in contact with daily
     iiiiriiiis: Oh then....
     panta98: And how do we appreciate what "others" do for us?
     frogmobile: I think they are many people out there with tons of needs especially,
     mental, physical, emotional, social, economic; if one can suceed in concentizing one
     "human" out of the many to undersand the enviornemt in which he/she lives in then we
     can say that we have achieved something in life
     ScnWrt: By their contributions to us-the exchange
     panta98: Well, I come into contact with my boss, the Dean. With my neighbour, who
     steals my eggs. With the kid who throws stones on my roof, With the kids who scratch
     my car. What must I do for them, what do they do to me?
     frogmobile: because we also learn in the process too Carl
     ScnWrt: Yep, Khalid
     iiiiriiiis: Khalid, I fear this is just impossible. And also I fear, one would waste his time.
     At least, this is my experience.
     panta98: What are the "contributions" of what I just mentioned? What is being
     exchanged?
     ScnWrt: One of Che'
     frogmobile: True! Iris, and they will always be bad experiences in life at the same there
     are 'some' deserving people there too
     frogmobile: We learn from both worlds
     panta98: Is not "exchange" the apple of discord? Are our human values not "exchange
     values"? What are emancipatory values? Does emancipation need "values"?
     panta98: Is valuing not discrimination?
     ScnWrt: One of Che's problems was as a physician after Castro's takeover, he never
     addressed medical problems in Cuba.
     frogmobile: as long as the intention is good we have nothing to feel bad about
     panta98: Why do I value someone? How do I value someone?
     panta98: Well, I prefer NEITHER GOOD NOR BAD INTENTIONS, the one is as
     rotten and hypocritical as the other!
     ScnWrt: We value someone to the degree that we value ourselves
     panta98: What is good for Paul is bad for Peter!
     panta98: When a rapist has good fun, the raped girl has bad nightmares; all sides of the
     same act.
     panta98: Good and bad always go together.
     frogmobile: People are a product of their own demise
     panta98: yes, the people, you too, Khalid/
     ScnWrt: Franz, how does feeding a starving child harm anyone else?
     frogmobile: Franz that is not the comparsion that equates 'emancipation'
     panta98: Well, if I feed thestarving child my whole life, and it's whole life, then it's
     excellent. ... but ...
     iiiiriiiis: I don't have time, nerves, energy, ganas, interest whatsoever to concienticize
     one sole, single, "human being" - and if somebody is already on his/her way, then I
     don't have to concientize either. .... If anybody does not WANT or just CANNOT
     understand, then just forget about it. And moreover...
     panta98: when it returns to its barrio, get again hungry tomorrow, starves, and then die
     a week later,I don't know what I really did.
 panta98: It's like building a hospital below the barrancos of the serpentine highway of the Venezuelan Andes, to treat the victims, who crash down there by car every week. I prefer the intelligent construction of innovative roads, and effective traffic laws, to avoid permanent accidents.
     iiiiriiiis: why me?
     iiiiriiiis: why shoud I
     ScnWrt: Iris, you don't have to
     frogmobile: If it gives you satisfaction Franz its none of my business you have to draw
     the line somewhere. first why is the kid hungry?
     panta98: Yes, and who gives me a dime, when I am starving?
     iiiiriiiis: I surely have to do enough to "help" myself, - yes, Carl, I know.
     panta98: Imagine me, feeding the billions of starving people!
     ScnWrt: Franz, no one is asking you to do that
     panta98: What's behind the feeding idea, is Christ changing stones into bread; if I can
     accomplish that, no problem!
     iiiiriiiis: yes...thanks Franz...
     iiiiriiiis: wanted to comment on this precisely...
     ScnWrt: The feeding idea is a responsibility, a key to emancipation
     panta98: That's exactly what emancipation is about; not feeding starving children, but
     changing stones into life,
     ScnWrt: The feeding
     ScnWrt: It's about both, franz
     ScnWrt: Franz
     ScnWrt: Ask a starving kid about alchemy
     panta98: I have the same chance to become a trillionaire, by washing all the plates of
     Venezuela than to reach emancipation by feeding 5 billion starving paupers.
     panta98: I'll have no zillisecond left to act and think for myself.
     iiiiriiiis: especially at Christmas or other religious "events" everybody all of a sudden
     "cares" about a manifestation of  a certain relation we already have identified...
     ScnWrt: You can help create a system that will end the cause of starvation
     panta98: Who all want to create this system? I know a very few, apart from us!
     panta98: What are the chances of this few?
     iiiiriiiis: and as Franz put it, from 6am to 6pm nobody doesn't care a _ about it, but rather
     they are interesed in perpetuating the same relations that contribute to it...
     panta98: Do we not have had enough about systems?
     ScnWrt: Franz, because it's key to survival of humanity
     iiiiriiiis: ...lying, discriminating, exploiting the nearest, seemingly "loved ones" ...
     panta98: Carl, humanity exists as much as Valhallah.
     ScnWrt: By system, I mean ways of doing things
     panta98: Method?
     panta98: Modus operandi et vivendi?
     ScnWrt: humanity; other human beings
     iiiiriiiis: human beings - I'm scared!
     ScnWrt: One method, Tesla free energy for entire world
     panta98: Which method, or method of doing things are different out there?
     iiiiriiiis: none, Franz!
     ScnWrt: These methods need to be deeveloped
     iiiiriiiis: just various levels of the same pervertion. more or less covered...
     panta98: Who seriously sat down, reflected, thought, did an innovative method of
     acting, thinking and reasoning?
     panta98: is this not a sine qua non for emancipation?
     ScnWrt: Franz Fanon did
     panta98: Again knocked-out, Carl. TKO!
     panta98: I give up!!!!
     ScnWrt: There are many remarkable people out there-We'll find them on the Internet
     panta98: He proposed "counter-violence",
     iiiiriiiis: And how was his relation to Nature, e.g.? Franz? To Labour-Process ?
     iiiiriiiis: thank you
     panta98: Franz Lee and Schachtman suggested: Neither Peace Nor War!
     panta98: The only problem was: Schachtman did not know what he was talking about.
     iiiiriiiis: Are you sugesting that we should log-in to some chats on Microsoft, Carl?
     iiiiriiiis: and go for them?
     ScnWrt: Browder wanted peace and war
     panta98: Franz Lee surely does.
     iiiiriiiis: do we have the time?
     iiiiriiiis: why should we search for anybody in the first place?
     ScnWrt: Iris, not Microsoft
     iiiiriiiis: ok, ICQ?
     iiiiriiiis: MIRC?
     iiiiriiiis: YAHOO?
     panta98: Frantz Fanon chose war, but its negation, Counter-War!
     iiiiriiiis: others?
     ScnWrt: Iris, we need diverse talents
     iiiiriiiis: aren't WE "enough talents"?
     iiiiriiiis: Why more?
     ScnWrt: e.g., to build free energy dervices
     iiiiriiiis: why 1000
     panta98: Khaaallliiiddd!!!!
     iiiiriiiis: aren't we? the excellent free energy?
     iiiiriiiis: ?
     iiiiriiiis: Franz?
     iiiiriiiis: Khalid?
     iiiiriiiis: still around?
     frogmobile: I ammmm heeeeeeerrrre!!!
     frogmobile: following
     panta98: Is he gone? Doing Baby-Sitting? Teaching Emancipation in the Cradle?
     iiiiriiiis: why quantitaively have we to be "many"?
     frogmobile: thinking in my own "ozone-free' way
     iiiiriiiis: why, in the extreme, not just US?
     ScnWrt: Iris, please visit the Nikola Tesla sites. Read Bill Lyne's book Pentagon
     Aliens from amazon.com for $20USA.
     iiiiriiiis: I'll do, Carl. The books just arrived. We got them now.
     iiiiriiiis: no I'm listening.
     ScnWrt: We don't.
     frogmobile: Sorry guys I have to go the gym to liberate my mind from all the "smog" of
     the day
     iiiiriiiis: Franz, Carl, Khalid, please proceed.
     ScnWrt: We don't have to be many. We may need some more talents
     panta98: What and where do I go from where I am currently? Should I give-up?
     Sleep-in for the day? take a cool Martin Polar Beer, fumar un cigarillo, toma un jugo
     de mora or toma un cafe. Que mas hay que ser? ...
     frogmobile: fight for yourself first
     panta98: These orgy of questions are important for a start. Now lets get the ball going?
     What do we suggest? The key in understanding all these variables is first all to ask
     should I or should I not relate what is happening to me myself. Why should I? Why
     should Inot? ...
     ScnWrt: Franz, do all of these things.
     iiiiriiiis: No, no reason to give up, agreed, Khalid.
     panta98: Any answers? Are the symptoms of the world's crisis also a symptoms of a
     personal crisis. How can I differentiate or divorce what is happening around the world
     from myself? Are there any, many or just one explanation to the answers? ...
     ScnWrt: Franz, why do you think you need to fight for yourself?
     ScnWrt: Many questions, Franz
     frogmobile: its too complicated for a chat
     panta98: Carl. I don't fight. I'm not a fighter. I transcended fighting. Now, ask me, what
     I mean by this?
     panta98: To fight is to participate in the strive of the opposites, in war.
     iiiiriiiis: yes, Khalid.
     panta98: Fighting is action, is motion. it's the inner force of a totality,
     ScnWrt: However, we better find a way to prevent NWO destruction of Africa, or the
     entire world will be destroyed
     panta98: Now, to fight, is to strengthen that Behemoth, that Leviathan. he needs a fight
     dearly.
     panta98: he would die, if he can't get a fight, terrorism, a War with Hussein, etc.
     panta98: No fight is his end; I obligue him, by not fighting, so that he can perish once and
     for all.
     iiiiriiiis: Africa already, unfortunately is wretched, smashed down, Carl. and not only
     Africa...
     ScnWrt: I'm referring to struggle with the pen
     iiiiriiiis: Carl, my problem is:
     iiiiriiiis: Who will understand what you are trying to say?
     frogmobile: guys sorry man!I have to go I will read the rest, our recreation centre
     closes in one hour
     ScnWrt: Not smashed down yet. North Africa: Egypt, Morroco, etc. is viable
     iiiiriiiis: Maybe those who read aren't even interested?
     panta98: Don't you see in what a miserable situation Global capitalism, the NWO, finds
     itself? It eliminated its Negation, and now its decaying, fading away into the galaxies.
     iiiiriiiis: ok Khalid, take care!
     frogmobile: good nighttttttt
     iiiiriiiis: see you next tuesday.
     panta98: OK, Guy!!!
     iiiiriiiis: good night, it was a pleasure!
     frogmobile: bye
     frogmobile has left the room.
     panta98: Back to the Fight of the Millennium , carl!
     ScnWrt: Gute nacht, Khalid
     ScnWrt: Wa alaikum salaam
     ScnWrt: Proceed, Franz
     panta98: I thought that the human being, humanity, is peace-loving, so why should we
     fight?
     ScnWrt: I mean struggle by the pen. Humanity isn't tranquile
     panta98: The USA, the Vatican, the Pentagon, the UNO, all have peace corps, want
     world peace. So, why should I fight?
     iiiiriiiis: Yes, the "peace" they enjoy, that's "peace", one even doesn't have to "fight"
     for it -since peace already exists as DDDD
     panta98: Oh! I see, the Pen is Mightier Than The Sword! Well, that's my element!
     ScnWrt: The peace corps consists of some great people, but it is used in good guy-bad
     guy games
     panta98: Even Jesus Christ wanted to fight: he said: I did not come to bring Peace, but
     the Sword, Fire!!! That was a "terrorist".
     panta98: But, you see, carl. What happens with "fighters", they get crucified. I don't
     like that idea.
     panta98: Also, poor Giordano Bruno tried to fight with the Feather, and still the
     Inquisition burnt him on Fire, on the Stake.
     ScnWrt: Agreed, Franz.
     panta98: Anything or Anybody who Fights against this system gets burnt,burnt very
     badly!
     panta98: With Love and Peace, we don't get far either.
     ScnWrt: But he/she who transcends and transforms this system doesn't get burned
     ScnWrt: and influences change
     panta98: So many loving and peaceful peoples, for example, those in colonial Africa,
     had to believe in their love to the Europeans, and their Peace treaties with them, they
     were exterminated.
     panta98: So, neither war nor Peace does the job!
     iiiiriiiis: ...because they are doing their job already
     panta98: But, that's only part of the "job", la lutta continua, but not as "lutta", as
     Transcendence, as Surpassing, as Txcellence, as Emancipation.
     panta98: And this method, this way of doing and thinking things, is arduous,extremely
     difficult, this is, as you said, what we're trying to do and to think.
     panta98: And, of all the people I know, you are doing an excellent "job".
     ScnWrt: Thank you, Franz
     panta98: Yes, carl. I mean it!
     ScnWrt: I respect your work tremendously
     iiiiriiiis: The problem is, Carl, that the readers can't see you, because to seee beauty
     presupposes beauty on the other side. And I mean it too, Carl.
     panta98: Me too, Carl. iris, Jutta, Stella and I always praise you for your tremendous
     work in our discussions. iris can confirm this!
     iiiiriiiis: Needless to mention, Carl.
     iiiiriiiis: This is what we have years and years tried to "construct", struggling and fighting for
     but
     we got nowhere.
     panta98: Poor Jutta is waiting for me. On this kind note, I suggest that we end here for
     today, to storm new "heavens" tomorrow!
     iiiiriiiis: Then, suddenly, you appeared.
     iiiiriiiis: Ok, I too have to go to sleep urgently. Carl and Franz, as always, it was a
     pleasure. I enjoyed the heated debate.
     panta98: May I say Gute Nacht!!
     ScnWrt: Thank you, Iris. I enjoy working with you.
     ScnWrt: Gute nacht, Iris
     iiiiriiiis: The pleasure is mine, Carl.
     iiiiriiiis: Gute Nacht, Carl.
     ScnWrt has left the room.
    iiiiriiiis has left the room.


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