P A N D E M O N I U M
 AOL TUESDAY EVENING INTERNATIONAL CHAT

                        CARL, STEVE, KHALID, IRIS & FRANZ

         TOPIC:   Basic Problems Concerning Transcendence & Emancipation

                               July 11, 2000 Chat                      (Slightly, Corrected Version.)
 



PRELUDE

     You have just entered room "ScnWrt Chat13."
     ScnWrt: Hi, Iris and Steve
     plasticsmith: Hi Franz ,Carl ,Iris
     iiiiriiiis: Hi Carl! Steve! Franz! It's a
     pleasure! Just need some minutes, then I'm
     with you - just came back from work!
     ScnWrt: I will send an e-mail to Mr. Jimmy.
     Please wait
     panta98: Hi! Iris, Steve, Carl. Where is Mr.
     Jimmy?
     panta98: Iris, sweet to read you!!!
     panta98: Steve, long time no see.
     iiiiriiiis: Wow! It's really a great pleasure, Franz and ALL!!
     panta98: Steve did you get the pictures, which I sent?
     iiiiriiiis: Thanks to the rain and cold weather, I'm here : )
     panta98: Iris, how did you enjoy the arrival of the VIP, Stella, in Merida, with press and
     all?
     iiiiriiiis: I laughed my head off, Franz!!!!
     iiiiriiiis: Hi, Khalid!
     plasticsmith: I didn't get any pictures..what were they?
     panta98: I'm sure Carl & Steve liked the huge Andes mountains, where our farm is
     situated. which Iris, took from the plane. Steve, I'll resend them later.
     frogmobile: Hi there wonderful folks
     iiiiriiiis: Hi, Khalid! Yes, great picture, Franz!
     panta98: HI! Frog!
     plasticsmith: Hi Frog!
     panta98: You swim pretty fast, man.
     frogmobile: Froggy here again!
     panta98: Did you like the San Onofre photos, Khalid! And the reception of the VIP,
     Stella, in Merida, with press and all.
     iiiiriiiis: Franz and Carl, did Mr. J. confirm? - Steve, did you will like the pictures!
     frogmobile: Hello Carl, Hello Iris y Franz
     panta98: They are big, I'll send them to you again, Steve.
     frogmobile: Hello Steve
     plasticsmith: What happened in Merida? I'm so curious
     iiiiriiiis: I already forwarded the VIP to Lilli, she sends greetings to you, Jutta and
     Stella, Franz!
     frogmobile: Is Carl not around?
     iiiiriiiis: My sister arrived yesterday, Steve!
     ScnWrt: Hi, Khald. I sent an e-mail to Mr. Jimmy.
     panta98: Guys, until Mr. Jimmy arrives, can we ponder a while over "transcendence"
     and "emancipation"?
     iiiiriiiis: Yes, he is, Khalid, just trying to contact Mr. Jimmy.
     plasticsmith: But why the press-are you so famous
     ScnWrt: Yes, indeed, Franz
     iiiiriiiis: Yes, Franz.
     frogmobile: Hey Franz it was a "cool" picture.
     panta98: Yes, man. We're the Pandemonium Crew, world renown, the lonely site on the
     Web!
     iiiiriiiis: Hahahahhaha, FranzFranzFranz!
     frogmobile: Who is Mr Jimmy?
     iiiiriiiis: I doubt that the guy knows our page ;)
     frogmobile: Iris, How are you?
     panta98: Anyhow, till he shows up: ....
     iiiiriiiis: Wonderful, Khalid!
     ScnWrt: What VIP are you referring to? Is it the photo with Stella?
     iiiiriiiis: Yes, Carl. Stella, Franz & Jutta in the local newspaper of Merida. Without noise here!

THE CHAT CATCHES FIRE

     panta98: I've been thinking a lot about "transcendence", what it means in the context
     of emancipation.
     panta98: Especially in the fields of acting, thinking and excelling.
     panta98: The problem lies in the concept "emancipation".
     panta98: It has two aspects: ....
     panta98: internal and external emancipation, which should be related, but not mixed up.
     ScnWrt: Agreed
     panta98: Some people only want to emancipate themselves and others within the system. ...
     plasticsmith: How does transcendence relate to emancipation?
     iiiiriiiis: Excellent point, Franz!!
     panta98: Well, that's fine. ...
     panta98: But, that's not enough, you get nowhere. ....
     panta98: The problem is that we do not have the foggiest idea about action, thought and
     excellence which "surpass", ("hinueberschreiten", "transzendieren"). .....
     plasticsmith: The essence of the word transcend is outside the system, is it not?
     panta98: In fact, it is difficult to explain, because originally, this only happened in the
     realm of religion, in theology, as transcendence towards God.
     panta98: It means to do something which we never have done before, and which we
     won't repeat again.
     panta98: It means the same for Thinking. Hence, for Praxis and Theory.
     panta98: Now, who does this, who thinks like that, originally?
     plasticsmith: I am familiar with transcending in a religious sense but what is to be
     transcended in work, in the daily world?
     panta98: And, if not, who will understand when we explain transcending action and
     thinking?
     iiiiriiiis: Valid, Franz.
     ScnWrt: Creativity, Steve -- art, music, photography, etc.
     plasticsmith: and doing
     panta98: This is the basic problem which we have with transcendental emancipation. I
     wait for suggestions, for comments.
     plasticsmith: You see - I am so wraped up in the world of business, I can't see any
     transcendence in it.
     panta98: Yes, Steve, to leave a system of misery, exploitation and domination behind,
     to transcend to an emancipatory world beyond. Steve, at least you must see some profits,
     otherwise business is no "good", is not business. Imagine, what happens to a "capitalist", if
     he doesn't make any profits! he simply becomes bankrupt, disappearing from his social class.
     ScnWrt: Franz, encourage doing creative art, writing, music, photography every day.
     ScnWrt: When you see your artwork improve every day - that's transcendence.
     plasticsmith: That's a noble persuit but how can I make a living from it?
     panta98: Again, Khalid. To transcend, to excel, means to go beyond the system which
     forever produces and reproduces DDDD. In it, no chance; one has to surpass it in
     action, thought and reasoning. How to do, think and excel this? Steve, you 're doing it, you do
     make a living, only you must be conscious of what you do, and in what you find yourself.
     frogmobile: How do you explainTranscendence? From what perspective? In what
     context? How does it link with emancipation?
     ScnWrt: It will reflect in what you do for a living.
     panta98: This, Khalid, is the problem, not to fall back into liberalism, religion,
     Christianity, Marxism, etc. again!!!
     panta98: These brought us nowhere, they will never ever bring us anywhere.
     frogmobile: Okay "good guy," I like to play the "devil's advocate," at times with you.
     panta98: Hence we have to explore transcendental avenues, which really transcend this
     porqueria (sh..).
     panta98: Continue. ....
     ScnWrt: Does my idea about creative output have value?
     plasticsmith: I am by nature an anarchist and a follower of Ayn Rand...is this a
     contradiction?
     panta98: Of course, Carl. It touches the central issue. Comments, questions, ...that's your
     field, Steve.
     frogmobile: Then to transcend means to emancipate, liberate, but what? First ourselves
     in thoughts and thinking and action.
     panta98: Steve, you always ask brilliant questions, and give remarks to the point, bull's
     eyes!!!
     ScnWrt: I am a libertarian - mostly re: Friedrich Hayek.
     plasticsmith: Thank you it is from the benifit of having no education.
     frogmobile: I am "nothing".......?
     panta98: Steve, no official education is a blessing, this Einstein knew very well. Carl, what
     I'm talking about, no libertarian, no liberal, has any chance; all these operate within the system;
     he never could, never will transcend anything, not even himself!!!!
     ScnWrt: I'm nothing but a hound dog.
     panta98: But, you are a hound dog on the frontier, sniffing fresh emancipatory air.
     ScnWrt: Friedrich Hayek's ideas are out of the system.
     frogmobile: Agreed Franz.
     iiiiriiiis: Quite difficult, but I'll try: one cornerstone to maintain the staus quo that is
     precisely to lock in the possible faculties of transcending by means of giving some
     "attributes" (invisibility, beyond formal logics, e.g law of excluded middle, no
     time-space parameters valid etc.) to a "fantasma" called "GOD".
     frogmobile: The system is utter crap.
     ScnWrt: Read Hayek's book.
     iiiiriiiis: ... it doesn't come indeed very near to these "attributes".
     panta98: It's like someone in a cage, already putting his nose through the bars, sniffing emancipation
     - at least the nose is already outside the jail, enjoying emancipation.  I'm not aware of the
     fact, that in word and deed, Hayek transcends this capitalist world system.
     ScnWrt: The system has to be crap, or it wouldn't be the system.
     panta98: This is our situation, our problem. ...
     ScnWrt: I think that creative art is a first step
     panta98: Nothing inside the cage will serve, so, tell us, what all of you have been
     sniffing beyond globalization.
     plasticsmith: I believe it is possible to aim one's work at the system but remain
     outside - not commited so to speak.
     panta98: This system, due to its rigid laws does not allow any by-standers; when you do nothing to
     transcend the system, even if you are just a passive on-looker, de facto, you affirm the system.
    The greatest affirmation comes from the "left", who internally negates the system, giving it a new
     lease of life, new innovative dynamics.  If we do not do and think anything really new and original,
     well then we could just as well join the  Military Peace Corps.
     panta98: Amnesty International, ....
     panta98: The Mormons,
     ScnWrt: The UN.
     panta98: Yes, Carl.
     plasticsmith: Join nothing - watch everything?
     panta98: This choice we don't have. Capitalism has left us with "Hobson's Choice" -- with no choice
     whatsoever! It's "high time" that we discuss this topic, ....
     frogmobile: Iris I think you are "smacking" at the idealist roots of Transcendence, good point.
     iiiiriiiis: "smacking," Khalid? what does this mean, please?
     panta98: Not to fall back forever, back into the deluvium, to do things that did not serve
     the purpose of any emancipation.
     ScnWrt: No, Steve. Do creative things outside of the system.
     frogmobile: In other words you are "trashing" the idealist conception of ....!
     plasticsmith: The more I think about this idea, it comes clear to me ... I have transcended
     a long time ago I just didn't know the word.
     panta98: Yes, Steve, it's not a matter of "semantics" -- Khalid's horror -- but of the thought which
     the word inefficiently expresses. It's about time, that we think about ourselves, identify ourselves.
     Who Are We?
     iiiiriiiis: Ok, thanks Khalid, got it.
     ScnWrt: Agreed, Franz.
     panta98: Steve, Outside of the System, right here, On Earth! Conocete a ti mismo! Know Thyself!!!
     frogmobile: Interesting Steve!
     panta98: Gnothi seauton! This was the inscription of the Oracle of Delphi!
     ScnWrt: Then know what's out there.
     frogmobile: Who am I? That is the key question......!
     plasticsmith: Who are we? that's very 60s ish
     panta98: Yes, Carl, but not "something out there, which comes to get you", what's out there to
     welcome us.
     panta98: To take great joy that "it" visits us, or we visiting "it".
     ScnWrt: Lots out there.
     panta98: Now, it's getting interesting, Carl.
     panta98: For sure, But What? Whom?
     panta98: What different? What "what" which we never ever saw? Never thought about. We call it
     Cosmos! What Is! In our New World Order, out there only exists: What Pays!
     iiiiriiiis: Yes, it's also in the 60s, but more, Steve. That's our problem. How, in which sense
     "more" or "other".
     ScnWrt: e.g., write a story about AIDS that will entice people to do something. Publish
     it on the net. People will react.
     panta98: Why do I want to excel beyond? Carl, you underestimate the "re-acting", the reaccionary
     power of the people out there. In fact, they are out there, to come and get us, to tell Big Brother what
     we do or do not do. Not all, but the most in authoritarian environments.
     panta98: Why not stay in this mess and enjoy it to the fullest?
     panta98: Who wants "more"? Who wants to excel? People, all People????
     ScnWrt: Because excel beyond is the only way to get out of this crap.
     frogmobile: Excellent Carl!
     plasticsmith: I think I participate in the system but hold no alegance to it
     panta98: D'accord! Carl. Yes, but, who still wishes, loves, is anxious to excel beyond? Dick, Tom,
     Harry, Jean, Joanne, Jeanette? I'm afraid, not!
     ScnWrt: Today, only some people, und morgen die ganze Internet (seriously).
     plasticsmith: Only to get money to do the creative things for myself. money buys time
     panta98: Either I'm totally deaf, numb or blind, but this desire, this expectation, I've
     never ever heard from the "mass", from the "people". But, we must take into consideration, that
     you might be "right"; yet, I won't bet a farthing on it.
     ScnWrt: Agreed, not from the mass.
     panta98: Everything which they desire alive is WITHIN . ....
     panta98: Money, food, clothing, a rich husband, an intelligent beauty queen. ....
     ScnWrt: Because they worship the God of Money.
     panta98: Yes, Carl: Baal, Mammon, Pluto, .... To distribute the system-internal wealth. ...
     panta98: To get employed. ....
     panta98: To buy something .....
     panta98: to sell something. ...
     panta98: to own something ....
     ScnWrt: Because that's the system.
     iiiiriiiis: But then, what about me? Guys, it seems that I also fall into this range - all I'm
     looking for in this system is money!
     panta98: to do something for the poor of this world. .... Iris, that's the only thing for which this
     system is "good", for anything else, it's useless.
     plasticsmith: I worship the god of free time and creativity - paint and canvas is
     expensive.
     panta98: to conscientize the poor, here and now, inside,  .... this was the life-job of all Christians and
     Marxists. ...
     panta98: This is immanence, but no transcendence, not even immanence in transcendence, not
     even transcendence in immanence.
     iiiiriiiis: ..well, not to do something for "the poor" - this one doesn't apply...
     frogmobile: You have no alternative, but to make money, Iris. You have to, in order to survive..
     plasticsmith: At last, the poor should do something for themselves. God helps those who helps
     themselves!! So they say!
     panta98: Is this a world system of survival, or what is it?
     iiiiriiiis: Agreed, Franz and Khalid.
     ScnWrt: Steve, I worship the same God -- Canvas, paint is expensive?
     frogmobile: So what does it tell us about the system?
     panta98: And, if anyone can "suvive", excel, emancipate himself, here, within, well,
     then, why talk about emancipation. Nobody in Heaven needs Emancipation.
     ScnWrt: Steve, do computer graphics -- free.
     plasticsmith: it's exactly that - in a system of survival, he who has the most stuff, wins.
     panta98: Problem solved, Go along, Giddy Up, Cowboy! The Wild West has all
     salvation.
     panta98: Capitalism will dry your tears, will feed you, like your Father in Heaven.
     ScnWrt: Except `while he who has the most stuff survives today, nicht morgen!
     frogmobile: What is your point, Franz?
     panta98: Look at the lilies how they grow. ... our Father in Heaven cares for them. ...
     frogmobile: That's known!
     plasticsmith: we are not lillies
     panta98: Steve, we'll possess some on our graves. How will this Great Father not care for the Crown
     Of His Creation????
     frogmobile: But how will one live?
     panta98: Father Capital. Father Capitalist System!
     ScnWrt: All -isms will destroy you in the long run.
     panta98: So, we must first get clear what is emancipation.
     panta98: What do we emancipate ourselves from?
     panta98: Whereto, in which direction, towards what do we want to excel, transcend,
     emancipate us?
     plasticsmith: It sounds like the path to socalism ... mind control governments love it  .... it
     gives them total power over the poor.
     ScnWrt: We emancipate ourselves from the tyranny of the system.
     panta98: If this is not clarified, we'll remain staunch humanitarians, libertarians,
     humanists, Christians, Buddhists, etc.
     iiiiriiiis: Ourselves, good point, Carl!
     plasticsmith: Vote for us, and we will keep your welfare cheques coming/
     ScnWrt: Steve, Capitalism=Socialism, etc.=tyrrany-the same masters
     panta98: Your farewell ones, too, Steve. There is no time to waste anymore, no time for
     "small talk".
     plasticsmith: I don't agree.
     plasticsmith: Capitalism will provide me my emancipation.
     ScnWrt: Guys, read Friedrich Hayek's The Road to Serfdom.
     panta98: It's serious, either we are serious or we carry on as we did till now; simple,
     clear formal logics!
     panta98: Yes, Steve, that's it.
     plasticsmith: A big sail boat that I can sail around the world ... think and do for myself.
     panta98: At least, a valid point.
     ScnWrt: Steve, I'm referring to monopolistic and state capitalism, not the libertarian
     idea,
     panta98: If capitalism would emancipate me, excellent, then I must love capitalism, defend
     it with my very life.
     plasticsmith: I would.
     panta98: A logical argument, a logical life-style. Nobody could and should question this.
     ScnWrt: Think and do for yourself in exchange with others.
     frogmobile: Guys! I am smiling at the exchanges ...! Go for it guys.
     panta98: I can only say: Enjoy it boy, to the fullest. Greetings to Dr. Barker from me. ....
     panta98: IIIiirrrriiiisss! Still around????
     plasticsmith: There are always others that are with or against you in the pursuit of
     money.
     ScnWrt: Steve, I think you are referring to the Libertarian idea.
     iiiiriiiis: Yes, Franz.
     plasticsmith: Anarchist formula. It can work you know.
     plasticsmith: It only means NO GOVERNMENT.
     ScnWrt: I'm reffering to others who will add something to your life and vice versa.
     panta98: Money is the nexus in the system, the root of all joy and happiness. Excellent,
     get more money. Let nobody steal it from you. Please. don't buy, don't spend, it'll get
     less. You will get less happy, less human.
     frogmobile: I think Steve is referring to Capitalism as a tool of getting what he wants.
     that is a "boat" to freedom. Am I right?
     ScnWrt: Steve, self-government.
     plasticsmith: Exactly.
     panta98: Imagine setting a cat to guard your cheese or white mice!
     panta98: That's like using capitalism for emancipatory purposes.
     frogmobile: Seems so.
     ScnWrt: With emancipation, no need for guards.
     panta98: Govern, government? Are you folks not yet "governed" enough?
     plasticsmith: I am a mature, thinking, generous human being
     panta98: Now, you're speaking Canadian fresh mountain air, Steve. Now we are near
     Vancouver!!!!
     frogmobile: There is no "nature" to enjoy anymore in Canada.
     plasticsmith: It is the goal of every political system to control the minds and bodies of
     their subjects. To be emancipated you must think outside of the "schism."
     panta98: Excellent, Steve. But, guys, what are the baby-steps of transcendence, of emancipation?
     panta98: What are the emancipatory daydreams of youth?
     panta98: Of becoming, blooming, blossoming, flowering?
     ScnWrt: Franz, do creative art, writing, photography, the baby steps
     plasticsmith: Ok, think outside of the Bronx.
     panta98: Surely not, govern, government, .... etc. .....
     panta98: What do you want, what do you love, ....
     panta98: what do you wish for yourselves?
     ScnWrt: Steve, I was joking about the Bronx.
     panta98: In what world you want to live? With what essence, existence and
     transcendence?
     panta98: What do you want to do? What do you want to think? How do you want to
     surpass, to excel? To love?
     plasticsmith: the first baby step is to think for one's self, not to tow the offical line.
     panta98: It's our "business", it's what we want to do, to think, to surpass.
     panta98: Now, tell us. ....
     ScnWrt: A world that emphasizes and appreciates creative art.
     iiiiriiiis: Valid point, Steve!
     ScnWrt: Art for art's sake!
     panta98: Is Iris gone? Gone With The Wind? Towards "The East Of Eden"?
     iiiiriiiis: Not gone, Franz, I'm listening.
     plasticsmith: My father sent me some paintings, I did about 20 years ago.
     panta98: Ok, there, you are, Iris. Now I see the rainbow through the winds and rains of stormy
     change.
     ScnWrt: Art helps us to think for ourselves. It's not enough to think. We gotta do things.
     panta98: What, Carl?
     plasticsmith: Art was likely what saved me.
     panta98: What's new? What to do new?
     panta98: What kind of novelty, originality, innovation?
     plasticsmith: I will send you  some scans of my work.
     ScnWrt: Please do, Steve.
     panta98: Excellent, Steve!
     plasticsmith: Exactly Carl ... thinking is useless without action
     panta98: And, vice versa. Which art? Where you labour or work?
     panta98: Art which includes working, or not?
     ScnWrt: Writing and drawing comic book stories in the 50's and 60's contributed most
     to my growth
     iiiiriiiis: Yes, please do so, Steve. Agree to your point, Steve and Carl.
     plasticsmith: I will
     panta98: And, if art does not have any relation with labour, is Art then not
     emancipatory, going beyond money, money-making, something new? Something
     creative, transcendental beauty???
     ScnWrt: Non-alienated artwork, not labor
     ScnWrt: Yep, Franz
     panta98: Did you write and draw for yourself, Carl?
     plasticsmith: Funny thing about art and artists. That's what I wanted to be when I was a
     kid until I found out that artists suffer for humanity like Jesus Christ
     ScnWrt: We comic book creators were not motivated by money. We weren't paid much
     ScnWrt: Steve, they don't have to suffer
     plasticsmith: artists never are paid much
     plasticsmith: but society wants them to suffer
     plasticsmith: what is best known about Van Gaugh for example
     plasticsmith: he cut off his ear
     ScnWrt: I saved the transcript up to this point. I will continue to save it
     plasticsmith: now his paintings are worth eighty million
     panta98: Steve, why do artists "suffer" for humanity?
     plasticsmith: for the same reason Christ died that is for our sins
     ScnWrt: Not all artists suffer. Picasso didn't cut off his ear. He had a great sex life
     panta98: Carl, is a "good sex life" not tremendous "suffering"?
     plasticsmith: not all suffering is public
     panta98: Especially a "good sex life", Steve!
     plasticsmith: passion and suffering
     ScnWrt: Franz, depends on your point of view
     panta98: Yes "good" passions, and "bad" sufferings!
     panta98: what have these got to do with transcendence and emancipation. guys???
     plasticsmith: what is a good sex life quantity or variety
     iiiiriiiis: hm.... .
     ScnWrt: Matter of opinion
     panta98: Khalid, any ideas obout emancipating yourself?
     plasticsmith: What is the belief..calvenism...the nobility of suffering
     panta98: Do you people also wish to have a "good sex life" like Picasso? or does this
     fall within the realm of the system? has it something to do with emancipation?
     ScnWrt: Steve, masochism?
     plasticsmith: Some religions believe the path to transcendence is through pain and
     suffering
     panta98: Why did some women want to "emancipate" themselves in the sixties and
     seventies? especially middle class ones?
     ScnWrt: Sex is part of nature-emancipation
     panta98: Yes, Steve, that's the basis of most world religions.
     plasticsmith: yes!and it's nonsense
     ScnWrt: Masochism-fear
     panta98: And world religions are monotheistic, that is, father religions.
     plasticsmith: same as political systems paternalistic
     iiiiriiiis: ...yes, and by the "theoretical", ideologized backed up from W. Reich., Franz.
     ScnWrt: Religions-mind control
     panta98: Is Sex a part of Nature, Carl? Or is it Eros, Erotic Love?
     ScnWrt: Sex and Love are interrelated in nature.
     plasticsmith: love...is that hormones?
     panta98: Are Sex and Love two independent entitites? Do they have any relation to
     transcendence, to emancipation?
     plasticsmith: we should follow this idea.
     panta98: So much Love, so much Sex, in the System, do we still want more beyond?
     panta98: Will they be something new, original, innovative, transcendental?
     ScnWrt: They are independent entities. They will be different, non-commercial.
     panta98: This System is Love-Sick, Sex-Perverse!!!
     plasticsmith: Geese mate for life - is that love?
     ScnWrt: Totally non - Howard Stern.
     iiiiriiiis: Truely so, Franz.
     ScnWrt: Agreed, Franz. In this system, sex - money.
     panta98: Again, Carl's famous fundamental question: How Do We Excel in Doing, in
     Action?
     panta98: It seems to me nobody knows, nobody does, nobody wants to.
     ScnWrt: We start by doing creative art every day
     ScnWrt: Iris and Khalid: What are your view on emancipation?
     plasticsmith: nothing new about sex-money...as soon as women realized the power of it
     it became a comodity
     panta98: Excellent. What is "creative", what is "art", Carl?
     panta98: Please inform us, we're sitting on the telephione-line.
     Panta98: Of course, anybody can reply. Carl, is not in front of the Final Judgement
     Stool!
     ScnWrt: Totally new, outside the system. You'll know what it is when you see it
     panta98: Khalid, tell us something about any creative, artistic, emancipatory act in your
     life.
     plasticsmith: I have heard it said creativity is the art of hiding your sources
     panta98: Carl, you know it know already. tell us something about faraway places.
     ScnWrt: Agreed, Franz. I encourage all of you to state their views
     panta98: We've not been there. we're approximating, seeing the beauty on the horizon
     already.
     ScnWrt: Creativity is hiding nothing
     frogmobile: Carl in response to your question I think it will be unfair to do so in a few words
     I
     need "more space" and time to explain
     ScnWrt: Khalid, perhaps you can state 1 or 2 basic points
     plasticsmith: I have never tried it with a peanut...how is it possible
     ScnWrt: Peanuts are nutritive plant protein
     iiiiriiiis: Carl, it's very difficult to explain: some points we already named, e.g to
     interrelate what has being cut during the de-socialization and de-naturalization
     process. This presupposes, that we have to act and think bejony the range of formal
     logics - or more precise: to identify first to what extent we have been "damaged",
     that is, going for the "know thyself"
     iiiiriiiis: ...Franz mentioned some moments ago.
     iiiiriiiis: That is: its a process, not something "to be done or thought one time, then
     finished"...
     plasticsmith: I'll keep that in mind as the years go by
     ScnWrt: Iris, for this, I suggest that everyone visit the psychosynthesis sites. I will send
     you URL's later
     iiiiriiiis: ok, do so, Carl.
     ScnWrt: Peanuts-nutritious plant protein
     frogmobile: Carl, the first act of emancipation in my life was freedom from the dogmas of
     religion.
     iiiiriiiis: I'll have a look on it - although I think we have to do our very own
     psychosyntesis.
     iiiiriiiis: At least, I don't trust in patriarcal psycology.
     ScnWrt: Agreed, that's what psychosynthesis is all about.
     plasticsmith: Identify the extent of our damage...that is a most important idea Iris.
     ScnWrt: It's not patriarchial psychology
     iiiiriiiis: yes, and quite a lifelong job, Steve
     plasticsmith: Can you elaborate on that idea
     iiiiriiiis: invited Franz
     frogmobile: by reading and understanding the indoctrinating role and dominancy of religion
     and
     its impact and influence on my thinking and practise in living
     plasticsmith: I'm still assessing the damage
     panta98 has entered the room.
     ScnWrt: You can use psychosynthesis techniques to determine the nature and extent of
     the dsamage. I will give an example in my message
     panta98: OK!
     ScnWrt: I used it on myself. It works.
     panta98: I'm reading .....
     iiiiriiiis: Back, Franz - we are on psychosynthesis right now.
     iiiiriiiis: I'll have a look on it - although I think we have to do our very own
     psychosyntesis.
     panta98: Carl, what on earth is that now again? Jung, Gurdieff?
     panta98: I only studied photosynthesis.
     ScnWrt: Not Jung, Gurdjieff-Your own individual analytical method.
     ScnWrt: I'll send the URL's. See for yourself
     ScnWrt: Psychosynthesis works outside the system
     plasticsmith: photosynthisis=vegatable life psycothinsis= human life...interchangable?
     plasticsmith: It's closing time folks...I got a go..once again ..it was a slice
     frogmobile: bye Steve
     iiiiriiiis: ok, Steve, it was a pleasure, take care! Bye.
     plasticsmith: bye all
     ScnWrt: Not really, Steve. You develop your own techniques to connect to the higher
     level of your subconscious. It works
     ScnWrt: OK, till next time, Steve. Good night
     ScnWrt: We don't need to stay on Psychosynthesis
     iiiiriiiis: hopefully it works now, Franz.
     panta98: Worse even, slowly, my monitor is saying farewell to me, I'll have to buy a
     new one. Everything is now as green as grass.
     panta98: ... as green as ....
     iiiiriiiis: my problem is, that there might be valid points made - but should we not better
     apply our own method also in this field, also to check if we are "on the right track"?
     iiiiriiiis: Steve had to go and close, Franz.
     panta98: I'm following, Iris, ....
     iiiiriiiis: Psycology, as we have been discussing several times...
     panta98: OK!
     iiiiriiiis: has been desarrollada for special reasons...
     iiiiriiiis: as Franz and you have discussed quite some months ago.
     ScnWrt: Psychosynthesis is just a tool. Quite simple. No big deal. Check it out
     iiiiriiiis: Ok, I'll do so.
     panta98: Is official psychology not one of the most reactionary social sciences today?
     panta98: What about the relation of Wilhelm reich's psychology to Tesla's Natural
     Science?
     ScnWrt: Yes, Franz, but psychosynthesis is not psychology.
     panta98: why does nobody study Reich's Psychology; he has so much to tell us about
     mental transcendence?
     iiiiriiiis: but even though, I think we already have our own, powerful tools, Carl, or not
     "powerful", but "excellent". And yes, Franz - it is one of the reactionary social
     sciences.
     iiiiriiiis: Gendlin and all included.
     panta98: Also, by the way, about "The Sexual revolution"!
     iiiiriiiis: ---that's what I indicated before, Franz
     ScnWrt: Wilhem Reich's ideas are not psychology
     iiiiriiiis: Yes, thay are, Carl.
     iiiiriiiis: It was of the marxist variant
     panta98: Then, what did he tell us about "Mass Psychology of Fascism"?
     frogmobile: On psychology..the main function was to discover the self, to understand the
     individual, to find the "truth that make you free," according to psychologists
     panta98: About the "scapegoat" and 'identification with the attacker" principles?
     ScnWrt: I am unfamiliar with Reich's relation to Marxism
     panta98: He was a Marxist psychologist, Carl.
     panta98: He criticized Fascism as well as Stalinism.
     ScnWrt: I didn't realize that
     iiiiriiiis: He said e.g.: it should not be asked why a worker does strike and why the poor steals
     panta98: He and Erich Fromm are some of the most outstanding modern Marxist
     psychologists.
     iiiiriiiis: Why the exploited worker doesn't strike?
     ScnWrt: He photographed the blue light energy of the mind which is derived from the
     Tesla ether
     iiiiriiiis: and the poor, who has nothing to eat, doesn't steal...
     frogmobile: Yes! he was and probably the "most interesting." He wrote a famous book "The
     Mass Psychology of Fascism"
     panta98: He explained about sexual repression, about religious sexual repression, and
     how this is being channeled towards aggression, utilized by nazi and fascist
     governments.
     ScnWrt: I am familiar only with Reich's biophysics ideas
     frogmobile: Yes, Iris
     iiiiriiiis: Thanks, Franz - I can't that fastly
     panta98: He also explained what sexual repression of women implies.
     ScnWrt: Please explain, Iris and Khalid
     frogmobile: Erich Fromm's work is a must read also
     panta98: And, in his practical studies, like Fanon, he combined his psychological
     results with physics, with Orgone Theory. the same thing which Tesla discovered.
     ScnWrt: I think he said this was all due to suppression of orgone energy
     iiiiriiiis: Thanks, Franz.
     ScnWrt: Agreed. Franz
     panta98: Yes, the sexual repression, the religious repression, causes suppression of life
     energy, of orgone, causing psychosoamtic diseases, cancer, etc. And he could even heal
     cancer by using and applying his orgone diagnostics and methods.
     iiiiriiiis: ...but his book "cancer" isn't available anymore...
     ScnWrt: Folks, I don't advocate psychology. I am only asking you to have an open mind
     to some ideas
     iiiiriiiis: No problem, Carl!
     panta98: Yes, I urgently suggest that we should read the major works of Reich.
     panta98: I use him in my university class: Political Psychology.
     ScnWrt: Agreed, Franz
     panta98: Together with Fromm, Marcuse and Fanon.
     iiiiriiiis: Great class, by the way!
     ScnWrt: He was quite a threat. Died in jail.
     iiiiriiiis: Yes, declared to be totally nuts...
     panta98: yes, another one who was declared loco, crazy, when he was the most sane of
     them all.
     panta98: He was too dangerous in his epoch.
     iiiiriiiis: ...and in the meanwhile they exploited his thoughts, researching and applying it.
     frogmobile: Carl, Fascism according to him cannot be attributed solely to economic factors or
     direction
     from the political leadership. It is inherently a collective expression of what is the human
     being as
     a result of his/her repressed biological and sexual needs because of authorian control and
     dogmas.
     panta98: Also his "sexual revolution", setting free the life and sexual energy of the
     youth of the 60's, of the anti-imperialist and student movement, was too much for the
     "Cold war".
     ScnWrt: He accidentally discovered a USA-built flying saucer that uses Tesla
     technology. He was imprisoned to silence him. Ask Bill Lyne.
     panta98: In this context, comes Elvis Presley. He appealed to the Sexual Revolution, to
     the suppressed life energy of the youth, especially women.
     iiiiriiiis: but it had also another level, Franz - W.Reich's "revolution" I mean
     panta98: But, love me Tender is not what Reich had in mind!
     iiiiriiiis: ok
     panta98: Also, not the "Hound Dog".
     panta98: Rather: "I got Stung!"
     ScnWrt: Franz, this is evident in Graceland, Memphis, Tennessee, USA, home of Elvis
     panta98: Which level, Iris/!
     panta98: Who sleeps twice with the same partner, belongs to the establishment/
     panta98: That parole, watchword?
     iiiiriiiis: What we discussed some years ago, Franz, can't explain it so fast - would you
     do so, please - already did.
     panta98: Khalid, still around?
     iiiiriiiis: yes..and the impact, meaning --> atomization of relations on this level
     panta98: We're entering your field, you are the expert!
     panta98: Yes, iris!
     panta98: Iris, there was not much to atomize. Bourgeois love relations, ever since the
     romantic epoch, were atomized, Marx and hegel would say' alienated ',
     thing-relations,
     ossified marital relations, money-relations.
     ScnWrt: This still exists today
     frogmobile: He concludes that human beings must come to grips or be forced to realize their
     ability to engage in "potential 'mass' destructiveness," as a result of their belonging to what he
     term as "organise mysticism."
     iiiiriiiis: yes, thanks for the correction, for präzisieren, Franz - agreed
      frogmobile: It is the Church, religion, and the family that feeds the potential to mass
     destruction
     frogmobile: I am still around
     panta98: Excellent, Guy! More, more, ....
     frogmobile: think about Reich
     frogmobile: The guy was "radical" man!
     panta98: Woh!!! Mas, mas, un poquito mas, ....
     iiiiriiiis: but we have gone further than Reich, it seems to me... more precise.
     panta98: You, too, taking things at their roots, to root them out, to become radical. ....
     frogmobile: reading his works is always refreshing
     panta98: How far did he go, Iris?
     frogmobile: as well as that of Erich Frommm.
     iiiiriiiis: I'm not sure if Reich has questioned the none relation of nature-society, the
     labour process.
     panta98: He experienced the barriers of his time, Iris. Just like each one of us.
     frogmobile: There is a great book by Erich Fromm " the art of love." Probably one of his
     best
     frogmobile: I recommed it
     iiiiriiiis: Yes, Franz.
     panta98: He, like many others, had set his "hopes" on the socialist revolution, on the
     Soviet Union, in the first place.
     frogmobile: But like everyone else they were deceived
     panta98: Now, you see, Khalid! The Art Of Loving. A brilliant masterpiece about
     emancipation, but we transcend it.
     panta98: Also a booklet about "The Little Man". the man on the street, his wishes, his
     desires.
     frogmobile: yes it is indeed brillant without arguments
     frogmobile: Also read guys "The Sane Society."
     panta98: Guys, by the way. what is Love, Loving, Lovingness, in our context?
     frogmobile: Lets not get into such complicated topic now. Its too vast
     panta98: Is Love not perhaps another catchword, an essential element of ideology, like
    the concept "human being"?
     frogmobile: most likely.
     panta98: Love Thy Neighbour As Thyself!
     panta98: Love Thy Father In Heaven!
     panta98: Would one single record of Elvis sell, if this "Love" has not been
     disseminated until the highest degree of vomitting?
     panta98: Love For The Fatherland!
     ScnWrt: Love is a component of the survival instinct. Continuolusly changes.This
     needs to be developed. Relation of love to technology.
     iiiiriiiis: Love, Hope, Freedom, Peace, yes, Franz - just another ideological element, as
     you said.
     frogmobile: LOVE is now an "ideological expession" that denotes domination and control.
     panta98: Oh! Carl. tTecho-Party! Techno-Love!! Let's go, to the rhythm of
     Techno-Music!!!
     ScnWrt: Relation of love to technology and space colonization are key
     ScnWrt: That's the way it is today, Franz
     iiiiriiiis: I'm somehow a little affected by music those days, gentlemen...
     panta98: Embrace your STAUBSAUGER, your refrigerator, your TV!!!
     iiiiriiiis: ...Hahahahha Franz!!!! You got it, man!
     panta98: It tickles the heart, and confuses the brain!
     iiiiriiiis: You are so right!
     frogmobile: ... and makes you "dizzy"
     ScnWrt: Love can be emancifying.
     panta98: Carl, in what sense?
     frogmobile: What is Love?
     frogmobile: It is about Care, Respect, Knowledge....! Emancipation too.
     ScnWrt: Love requires that it tanscend the system. Otherwise, no love.
     panta98: Yes, Khalid, that's what I wanted to know before! Please, please tell me.... I
     am very close to the phone, "put your sweet lips a little loser to the phone. ...?
     frogmobile: I know the song, Franz, Remember we used to listen to it.
     ScnWrt: Love is responsibility and commitment, even when we're on the phone
     (technology).
     frogmobile: Why Lips and not "Voice" or something else?
     ScnWrt: It could be voice e-mail.
     frogmobile: You are right, Carl, Responsibility!
     panta98: I actually agree with you, Carl. My only problem is, what is love, which
     specific ingredient of emancipation? Is it a Love-Act, A Love-Thought, a
     Transcendental Eternal Love? None, All, Neither-Nor?
     frogmobile: It is a multiple choice "gigaloooo"!
     ScnWrt: It's love-All, outside the system.
     panta98: Well, I'll invent Love-Mail, to be trans- scended, -mitted through
     Cyber-space!!!!
     ScnWrt: Excellent, Franz.
     frogmobile: go for it Franz.
     panta98: Excellent, Carl. Why do the most complex questions have such simple
     answers? Strange.
     panta98: Khalid, we've begun the project long ago already. It's in full swing, only,
     Mother Cosmos, forgive us, we do not know what we're DOING!
     frogmobile: True.
     ScnWrt: Iris, any comment?
     panta98: What Love do we still need to sit and chat like this? Such contents, such
     sincerity, such fun, such joy, such loving "crew"? So different, so diverse, so triverse!
     panta98: We're family! Love-Family!!! Yes "Sister"!
     iiiiriiiis: My comments, Carl, I'm having my fun here! Listening, please proceed...
     ScnWrt: OK, Iris.
     frogmobile: Communication and understanding is the key to friendship
     ScnWrt: It's all here in this chat.
     panta98: Friendship, love, need no key, they are open doors for emancipation.
     panta98: Who needs a key, has something to hide, some private property.
     ScnWrt: On target, Franz
     ScnWrt: Love=Emancipation.
     panta98: Yes, on hundreds of HTML's in the meantime!
     frogmobile: Franz, you are indulging in semantics
     frogmobile: "Key"
     panta98: Well, Guy! I'll change over the "security, safety belts" in the Middle Ages,
     where we need no "semantic keys".
     frogmobile: Rub it in "good guy".
     frogmobile: Chastity belts.
     panta98: Oh. Khalid, what do you think about the virtue "chastity" --- is that not also
     an emancipatory element?
     panta98: How about a belt, a key?
     frogmobile: Yes! It means freedom to self-indulge.
     panta98: Khalid, I love to tease you. I simply love you!!!
     iiiiriiiis: I'm laughing my head off, here.... !!!
     frogmobile: Me too, We have a history of teasing for decades.
     panta98: Me, too.
     panta98: Poor Carl!!!
     iiiiriiiis: incredible...
     ScnWrt: I'm listening
     frogmobile: sometimes we are also very harsh, but ultimately we learnt to know each other well.
     panta98: That's better, Carl. one should not get too much involved in key questions!
     ScnWrt: Franz, tease on, MacDuff
     iiiiriiiis: : Carl!
     panta98: OK, let's get serious again, leaving mon-key tricks behind!
     frogmobile: Monkey tricks are also emancipating.
     panta98: Else we'll laugh for don-key years!!!
     frogmobile: It is also good to relax.
     frogmobile: It is health an do good for your health.
     panta98: Yes, Pandemonium is not only "hard work", "brain-wrecking". it's "great" fun!

THE CHAT DELIGHTFULLY FADES INTO WHITE ASHES

     panta98: Guys, for the sake of Iris, and also because we've had a tough day, can we
     say
     Gute nacht for today??
     frogmobile: Yes! sure
     panta98: I had real fun!
     iiiiriiiis: ok, same here, Franz!
     panta98: Please send me the few lines, which I missed, while I was off key!
     frogmobile: Carl, Iris and Franz it was great.
     iiiiriiiis: Yes, don't worry, I got the whole transcript.
     panta98: Khalid, it was tremendous to have you around!
     frogmobile: as always
     panta98: Carl, you were the best!
     frogmobile: he is always
     iiiiriiiis: Yes, it was a pleasure.
     panta98: I'll complete the previous chats in the next days.
     frogmobile: and so is Iris for her patience
     panta98: Khalid, can you correct this one for me too, please.
     frogmobile: Sure, I will
     panta98: I'll send it, and Carl & iris could send the parts which are absent.
     panta98: OK, sytraight now, I'll send you what I have.
     frogmobile: I have here, will save it and send it tomorrow.
     panta98: Khalid, Bye! You are just a bad, bad, guy!!!
     frogmobile: That you good guy.
     frogmobile: Bye
     panta98: Carl, Gute Nacht!!! Es hatte Spass gemacht!!!
     panta98: Yes, you do.
     frogmobile: No! I have saved it however I missed one of Carl's comment
     panta98: Khalid came a bit late, Iris!
     frogmobile: Carl are you there?
     panta98: The first part is absent, send that part!
     ScnWrt: Gute Nacht, Khalid.


NEXT

BACK TO GEOCITIES

BACK TO PANDEMONIUM

TO REVELATIONS

TO FRANZJUTTA.COM

TO STEVE'S SITE