CARL, STEVE, KHALID, IRIS & FRANZ
TOPIC: Basic Problems Concerning Transcendence & Emancipation
July 11, 2000 Chat
(Slightly, Corrected Version.)
You have just entered room "ScnWrt Chat13."
ScnWrt: Hi, Iris and Steve
plasticsmith: Hi Franz ,Carl ,Iris
iiiiriiiis: Hi Carl! Steve! Franz! It's a
pleasure! Just need some minutes, then I'm
with you - just came back from work!
ScnWrt: I will send an e-mail to Mr. Jimmy.
Please wait
panta98: Hi! Iris, Steve, Carl. Where is Mr.
Jimmy?
panta98: Iris, sweet to read you!!!
panta98: Steve, long time no see.
iiiiriiiis: Wow! It's really a great pleasure,
Franz and ALL!!
panta98: Steve did you get the pictures, which
I sent?
iiiiriiiis: Thanks to the rain and cold weather,
I'm here : )
panta98: Iris, how did you enjoy the arrival
of the VIP, Stella, in Merida, with press and
all?
iiiiriiiis: I laughed my head off, Franz!!!!
iiiiriiiis: Hi, Khalid!
plasticsmith: I didn't get any pictures..what
were they?
panta98: I'm sure Carl & Steve liked the
huge Andes mountains, where our farm is
situated. which Iris, took from the plane.
Steve, I'll resend them later.
frogmobile: Hi there wonderful folks
iiiiriiiis: Hi, Khalid! Yes, great picture,
Franz!
panta98: HI! Frog!
plasticsmith: Hi Frog!
panta98: You swim pretty fast, man.
frogmobile: Froggy here again!
panta98: Did you like the San Onofre photos,
Khalid! And the reception of the VIP,
Stella, in Merida, with press and all.
iiiiriiiis: Franz and Carl, did Mr. J. confirm?
- Steve, did you will like the pictures!
frogmobile: Hello Carl, Hello Iris y Franz
panta98: They are big, I'll send them to you
again, Steve.
frogmobile: Hello Steve
plasticsmith: What happened in Merida? I'm
so curious
iiiiriiiis: I already forwarded the VIP to
Lilli, she sends greetings to you, Jutta and
Stella, Franz!
frogmobile: Is Carl not around?
iiiiriiiis: My sister arrived yesterday, Steve!
ScnWrt: Hi, Khald. I sent an e-mail to Mr.
Jimmy.
panta98: Guys, until Mr. Jimmy arrives, can
we ponder a while over "transcendence"
and "emancipation"?
iiiiriiiis: Yes, he is, Khalid, just trying
to contact Mr. Jimmy.
plasticsmith: But why the press-are you so
famous
ScnWrt: Yes, indeed, Franz
iiiiriiiis: Yes, Franz.
frogmobile: Hey Franz it was a "cool" picture.
panta98: Yes, man. We're the Pandemonium Crew,
world renown, the lonely site on the
Web!
iiiiriiiis: Hahahahhaha, FranzFranzFranz!
frogmobile: Who is Mr Jimmy?
iiiiriiiis: I doubt that the guy knows our
page ;)
frogmobile: Iris, How are you?
panta98: Anyhow, till he shows up: ....
iiiiriiiis: Wonderful, Khalid!
ScnWrt: What VIP are you referring to? Is
it the photo with Stella?
iiiiriiiis: Yes, Carl. Stella, Franz &
Jutta in the local newspaper of Merida. Without noise here!
THE CHAT CATCHES FIRE
panta98: I've been thinking a lot about "transcendence",
what it means in the context
of emancipation.
panta98: Especially in the fields of acting,
thinking and excelling.
panta98: The problem lies in the concept "emancipation".
panta98: It has two aspects: ....
panta98: internal and external emancipation,
which should be related, but not mixed up.
ScnWrt: Agreed
panta98: Some people only want to emancipate
themselves and others within the system. ...
plasticsmith: How does transcendence relate
to emancipation?
iiiiriiiis: Excellent point, Franz!!
panta98: Well, that's fine. ...
panta98: But, that's not enough, you get nowhere.
....
panta98: The problem is that we do not have
the foggiest idea about action, thought and
excellence which "surpass", ("hinueberschreiten",
"transzendieren"). .....
plasticsmith: The essence of the word transcend
is outside the system, is it not?
panta98: In fact, it is difficult to explain,
because originally, this only happened in the
realm of religion, in theology, as transcendence
towards God.
panta98: It means to do something which we
never have done before, and which we
won't repeat again.
panta98: It means the same for Thinking. Hence,
for Praxis and Theory.
panta98: Now, who does this, who thinks like
that, originally?
plasticsmith: I am familiar with transcending
in a religious sense but what is to be
transcended in work, in the daily world?
panta98: And, if not, who will understand
when we explain transcending action and
thinking?
iiiiriiiis: Valid, Franz.
ScnWrt: Creativity, Steve -- art, music, photography,
etc.
plasticsmith: and doing
panta98: This is the basic problem which we
have with transcendental emancipation. I
wait for suggestions, for comments.
plasticsmith: You see - I am so wraped up
in the world of business, I can't see any
transcendence in it.
panta98: Yes, Steve, to leave a system of
misery, exploitation and domination behind,
to transcend to an emancipatory world beyond.
Steve, at least you must see some profits,
otherwise business is no "good", is not business.
Imagine, what happens to a "capitalist", if
he doesn't make any profits! he simply becomes
bankrupt, disappearing from his social class.
ScnWrt: Franz, encourage doing creative art,
writing, music, photography every day.
ScnWrt: When you see your artwork improve
every day - that's transcendence.
plasticsmith: That's a noble persuit but how
can I make a living from it?
panta98: Again, Khalid. To transcend, to excel,
means to go beyond the system which
forever produces and reproduces DDDD. In
it, no chance; one has to surpass it in
action, thought and reasoning. How to do,
think and excel this? Steve, you 're doing it, you do
make a living, only you must be conscious
of what you do, and in what you find yourself.
frogmobile: How do you explainTranscendence?
From what perspective? In what
context? How does it link with emancipation?
ScnWrt: It will reflect in what you do for
a living.
panta98: This, Khalid, is the problem, not
to fall back into liberalism, religion,
Christianity, Marxism, etc. again!!!
panta98: These brought us nowhere, they will
never ever bring us anywhere.
frogmobile: Okay "good guy," I like to play
the "devil's advocate," at times with you.
panta98: Hence we have to explore transcendental
avenues, which really transcend this
porqueria (sh..).
panta98: Continue. ....
ScnWrt: Does my idea about creative output
have value?
plasticsmith: I am by nature an anarchist
and a follower of Ayn Rand...is this a
contradiction?
panta98: Of course, Carl. It touches the central
issue. Comments, questions, ...that's your
field, Steve.
frogmobile: Then to transcend means to emancipate,
liberate, but what? First ourselves
in thoughts and thinking and action.
panta98: Steve, you always ask brilliant questions,
and give remarks to the point, bull's
eyes!!!
ScnWrt: I am a libertarian - mostly re: Friedrich
Hayek.
plasticsmith: Thank you it is from the benifit
of having no education.
frogmobile: I am "nothing".......?
panta98: Steve, no official education is a
blessing, this Einstein knew very well. Carl, what
I'm talking about, no libertarian, no liberal,
has any chance; all these operate within the system;
he never could, never will transcend anything,
not even himself!!!!
ScnWrt: I'm nothing but a hound dog.
panta98: But, you are a hound dog on the frontier,
sniffing fresh emancipatory air.
ScnWrt: Friedrich Hayek's ideas are out of
the system.
frogmobile: Agreed Franz.
iiiiriiiis: Quite difficult, but I'll try:
one cornerstone to maintain the staus quo that is
precisely to lock in the possible faculties
of transcending by means of giving some
"attributes" (invisibility, beyond formal
logics, e.g law of excluded middle, no
time-space parameters valid etc.) to a "fantasma"
called "GOD".
frogmobile: The system is utter crap.
ScnWrt: Read Hayek's book.
iiiiriiiis: ... it doesn't come indeed very
near to these "attributes".
panta98: It's like someone in a cage, already
putting his nose through the bars, sniffing emancipation
- at least the nose is already outside the
jail, enjoying emancipation. I'm not aware of the
fact, that in word and deed, Hayek
transcends this capitalist world system.
ScnWrt: The system has to be crap, or it wouldn't
be the system.
panta98: This is our situation, our problem.
...
ScnWrt: I think that creative art is a first
step
panta98: Nothing inside the cage will serve,
so, tell us, what all of you have been
sniffing beyond globalization.
plasticsmith: I believe it is possible to
aim one's work at the system but remain
outside - not commited so to speak.
panta98: This system, due to its rigid laws
does not allow any by-standers; when you do nothing to
transcend the system, even if you are just
a passive on-looker, de facto, you affirm the system.
The greatest affirmation comes from the "left",
who internally negates the system, giving it a new
lease of life, new innovative dynamics.
If we do not do and think anything really new and original,
well then we could just as well join the
Military Peace Corps.
panta98: Amnesty International, ....
panta98: The Mormons,
ScnWrt: The UN.
panta98: Yes, Carl.
plasticsmith: Join nothing - watch everything?
panta98: This choice we don't have. Capitalism
has left us with "Hobson's Choice" -- with no choice
whatsoever! It's "high time" that we discuss
this topic, ....
frogmobile: Iris I think you are "smacking"
at the idealist roots of Transcendence, good point.
iiiiriiiis: "smacking," Khalid? what does
this mean, please?
panta98: Not to fall back forever, back into
the deluvium, to do things that did not serve
the purpose of any emancipation.
ScnWrt: No, Steve. Do creative things outside
of the system.
frogmobile: In other words you are "trashing"
the idealist conception of ....!
plasticsmith: The more I think about this
idea, it comes clear to me ... I have transcended
a long time ago I just didn't know the word.
panta98: Yes, Steve, it's not a matter of
"semantics" -- Khalid's horror -- but of the thought which
the word inefficiently expresses. It's about
time, that we think about ourselves, identify ourselves.
Who Are We?
iiiiriiiis: Ok, thanks Khalid, got it.
ScnWrt: Agreed, Franz.
panta98: Steve, Outside of the System, right
here, On Earth! Conocete a ti mismo! Know Thyself!!!
frogmobile: Interesting Steve!
panta98: Gnothi seauton! This was the inscription
of the Oracle of Delphi!
ScnWrt: Then know what's out there.
frogmobile: Who am I? That is the key question......!
plasticsmith: Who are we? that's very 60s
ish
panta98: Yes, Carl, but not "something out
there, which comes to get you", what's out there to
welcome us.
panta98: To take great joy that "it" visits
us, or we visiting "it".
ScnWrt: Lots out there.
panta98: Now, it's getting interesting, Carl.
panta98: For sure, But What? Whom?
panta98: What different? What "what" which
we never ever saw? Never thought about. We call it
Cosmos! What Is! In our New World Order,
out there only exists: What Pays!
iiiiriiiis: Yes, it's also in the 60s, but
more, Steve. That's our problem. How, in which sense
"more" or "other".
ScnWrt: e.g., write a story about AIDS that
will entice people to do something. Publish
it on the net. People will react.
panta98: Why do I want to excel beyond? Carl,
you underestimate the "re-acting", the reaccionary
power of the people out there. In fact, they
are out there, to come and get us, to tell Big Brother what
we do or do not do. Not all, but the most
in authoritarian environments.
panta98: Why not stay in this mess and enjoy
it to the fullest?
panta98: Who wants "more"? Who wants to excel?
People, all People????
ScnWrt: Because excel beyond is the only way
to get out of this crap.
frogmobile: Excellent Carl!
plasticsmith: I think I participate in the
system but hold no alegance to it
panta98: D'accord! Carl. Yes, but, who still
wishes, loves, is anxious to excel beyond? Dick, Tom,
Harry, Jean, Joanne, Jeanette? I'm afraid,
not!
ScnWrt: Today, only some people, und morgen
die ganze Internet (seriously).
plasticsmith: Only to get money to do the
creative things for myself. money buys time
panta98: Either I'm totally deaf, numb or
blind, but this desire, this expectation, I've
never ever heard from the "mass", from the
"people". But, we must take into consideration, that
you might be "right"; yet, I won't bet a farthing
on it.
ScnWrt: Agreed, not from the mass.
panta98: Everything which they desire alive
is WITHIN . ....
panta98: Money, food, clothing, a rich husband,
an intelligent beauty queen. ....
ScnWrt: Because they worship the God of Money.
panta98: Yes, Carl: Baal, Mammon, Pluto, ....
To distribute the system-internal wealth. ...
panta98: To get employed. ....
panta98: To buy something .....
panta98: to sell something. ...
panta98: to own something ....
ScnWrt: Because that's the system.
iiiiriiiis: But then, what about me? Guys,
it seems that I also fall into this range - all I'm
looking for in this system is money!
panta98: to do something for the poor of this
world. .... Iris, that's the only thing for which this
system is "good", for anything else, it's
useless.
plasticsmith: I worship the god of free time
and creativity - paint and canvas is
expensive.
panta98: to conscientize the poor, here and
now, inside, .... this was the life-job of all Christians and
Marxists. ...
panta98: This is immanence, but no transcendence,
not even immanence in transcendence, not
even transcendence in immanence.
iiiiriiiis: ..well, not to do something for
"the poor" - this one doesn't apply...
frogmobile: You have no alternative, but to
make money, Iris. You have to, in order to survive..
plasticsmith: At last, the poor should do
something for themselves. God helps those who helps
themselves!! So they say!
panta98: Is this a world system of survival,
or what is it?
iiiiriiiis: Agreed, Franz and Khalid.
ScnWrt: Steve, I worship the same God -- Canvas,
paint is expensive?
frogmobile: So what does it tell us about
the system?
panta98: And, if anyone can "suvive", excel,
emancipate himself, here, within, well,
then, why talk about emancipation. Nobody
in Heaven needs Emancipation.
ScnWrt: Steve, do computer graphics -- free.
plasticsmith: it's exactly that - in a system
of survival, he who has the most stuff, wins.
panta98: Problem solved, Go along, Giddy Up,
Cowboy! The Wild West has all
salvation.
panta98: Capitalism will dry your tears, will
feed you, like your Father in Heaven.
ScnWrt: Except `while he who has the most
stuff survives today, nicht morgen!
frogmobile: What is your point, Franz?
panta98: Look at the lilies how they grow.
... our Father in Heaven cares for them. ...
frogmobile: That's known!
plasticsmith: we are not lillies
panta98: Steve, we'll possess some on our
graves. How will this Great Father not care for the Crown
Of His Creation????
frogmobile: But how will one live?
panta98: Father Capital. Father Capitalist
System!
ScnWrt: All -isms will destroy you in the
long run.
panta98: So, we must first get clear what
is emancipation.
panta98: What do we emancipate ourselves from?
panta98: Whereto, in which direction, towards
what do we want to excel, transcend,
emancipate us?
plasticsmith: It sounds like the path to socalism
... mind control governments love it .... it
gives them total power over the poor.
ScnWrt: We emancipate ourselves from the tyranny
of the system.
panta98: If this is not clarified, we'll remain
staunch humanitarians, libertarians,
humanists, Christians, Buddhists, etc.
iiiiriiiis: Ourselves, good point, Carl!
plasticsmith: Vote for us, and we will keep
your welfare cheques coming/
ScnWrt: Steve, Capitalism=Socialism, etc.=tyrrany-the
same masters
panta98: Your farewell ones, too, Steve. There
is no time to waste anymore, no time for
"small talk".
plasticsmith: I don't agree.
plasticsmith: Capitalism will provide me my
emancipation.
ScnWrt: Guys, read Friedrich Hayek's The
Road to Serfdom.
panta98: It's serious, either we are serious
or we carry on as we did till now; simple,
clear formal logics!
panta98: Yes, Steve, that's it.
plasticsmith: A big sail boat that I can sail
around the world ... think and do for myself.
panta98: At least, a valid point.
ScnWrt: Steve, I'm referring to monopolistic
and state capitalism, not the libertarian
idea,
panta98: If capitalism would emancipate me,
excellent, then I must love capitalism, defend
it with my very life.
plasticsmith: I would.
panta98: A logical argument, a logical life-style.
Nobody could and should question this.
ScnWrt: Think and do for yourself in exchange
with others.
frogmobile: Guys! I am smiling at the exchanges
...! Go for it guys.
panta98: I can only say: Enjoy it boy, to
the fullest. Greetings to Dr. Barker from me. ....
panta98: IIIiirrrriiiisss! Still around????
plasticsmith: There are always others that
are with or against you in the pursuit of
money.
ScnWrt: Steve, I think you are referring to
the Libertarian idea.
iiiiriiiis: Yes, Franz.
plasticsmith: Anarchist formula. It can work
you know.
plasticsmith: It only means NO GOVERNMENT.
ScnWrt: I'm reffering to others who will add
something to your life and vice versa.
panta98: Money is the nexus in the system,
the root of all joy and happiness. Excellent,
get more money. Let nobody steal it from you.
Please. don't buy, don't spend, it'll get
less. You will get less happy, less human.
frogmobile: I think Steve is referring to
Capitalism as a tool of getting what he wants.
that is a "boat" to freedom. Am I right?
ScnWrt: Steve, self-government.
plasticsmith: Exactly.
panta98: Imagine setting a cat to guard your
cheese or white mice!
panta98: That's like using capitalism for
emancipatory purposes.
frogmobile: Seems so.
ScnWrt: With emancipation, no need for guards.
panta98: Govern, government? Are you folks
not yet "governed" enough?
plasticsmith: I am a mature, thinking, generous
human being
panta98: Now, you're speaking Canadian fresh
mountain air, Steve. Now we are near
Vancouver!!!!
frogmobile: There is no "nature" to enjoy
anymore in Canada.
plasticsmith: It is the goal of every political
system to control the minds and bodies of
their subjects. To be emancipated you must
think outside of the "schism."
panta98: Excellent, Steve. But, guys, what
are the baby-steps of transcendence, of emancipation?
panta98: What are the emancipatory daydreams
of youth?
panta98: Of becoming, blooming, blossoming,
flowering?
ScnWrt: Franz, do creative art, writing, photography,
the baby steps
plasticsmith: Ok, think outside of the Bronx.
panta98: Surely not, govern, government, ....
etc. .....
panta98: What do you want, what do you love,
....
panta98: what do you wish for yourselves?
ScnWrt: Steve, I was joking about the Bronx.
panta98: In what world you want to live? With
what essence, existence and
transcendence?
panta98: What do you want to do? What do you
want to think? How do you want to
surpass, to excel? To love?
plasticsmith: the first baby step is to think
for one's self, not to tow the offical line.
panta98: It's our "business", it's what we
want to do, to think, to surpass.
panta98: Now, tell us. ....
ScnWrt: A world that emphasizes and appreciates
creative art.
iiiiriiiis: Valid point, Steve!
ScnWrt: Art for art's sake!
panta98: Is Iris gone? Gone With The Wind?
Towards "The East Of Eden"?
iiiiriiiis: Not gone, Franz, I'm listening.
plasticsmith: My father sent me some paintings,
I did about 20 years ago.
panta98: Ok, there, you are, Iris. Now I see
the rainbow through the winds and rains of stormy
change.
ScnWrt: Art helps us to think for ourselves.
It's not enough to think. We gotta do things.
panta98: What, Carl?
plasticsmith: Art was likely what saved me.
panta98: What's new? What to do new?
panta98: What kind of novelty, originality,
innovation?
plasticsmith: I will send you some scans
of my work.
ScnWrt: Please do, Steve.
panta98: Excellent, Steve!
plasticsmith: Exactly Carl ... thinking is
useless without action
panta98: And, vice versa. Which art? Where
you labour or work?
panta98: Art which includes working, or not?
ScnWrt: Writing and drawing comic book stories
in the 50's and 60's contributed most
to my growth
iiiiriiiis: Yes, please do so, Steve. Agree
to your point, Steve and Carl.
plasticsmith: I will
panta98: And, if art does not have any relation
with labour, is Art then not
emancipatory, going beyond money, money-making,
something new? Something
creative, transcendental beauty???
ScnWrt: Non-alienated artwork, not labor
ScnWrt: Yep, Franz
panta98: Did you write and draw for yourself,
Carl?
plasticsmith: Funny thing about art and artists.
That's what I wanted to be when I was a
kid until I found out that artists suffer
for humanity like Jesus Christ
ScnWrt: We comic book creators were not motivated
by money. We weren't paid much
ScnWrt: Steve, they don't have to suffer
plasticsmith: artists never are paid much
plasticsmith: but society wants them to suffer
plasticsmith: what is best known about Van
Gaugh for example
plasticsmith: he cut off his ear
ScnWrt: I saved the transcript up to this
point. I will continue to save it
plasticsmith: now his paintings are worth
eighty million
panta98: Steve, why do artists "suffer" for
humanity?
plasticsmith: for the same reason Christ died
that is for our sins
ScnWrt: Not all artists suffer. Picasso didn't
cut off his ear. He had a great sex life
panta98: Carl, is a "good sex life" not tremendous
"suffering"?
plasticsmith: not all suffering is public
panta98: Especially a "good sex life", Steve!
plasticsmith: passion and suffering
ScnWrt: Franz, depends on your point of view
panta98: Yes "good" passions, and "bad" sufferings!
panta98: what have these got to do with transcendence
and emancipation. guys???
plasticsmith: what is a good sex life quantity
or variety
iiiiriiiis: hm.... .
ScnWrt: Matter of opinion
panta98: Khalid, any ideas obout emancipating
yourself?
plasticsmith: What is the belief..calvenism...the
nobility of suffering
panta98: Do you people also wish to have a
"good sex life" like Picasso? or does this
fall within the realm of the system? has it
something to do with emancipation?
ScnWrt: Steve, masochism?
plasticsmith: Some religions believe the path
to transcendence is through pain and
suffering
panta98: Why did some women want to "emancipate"
themselves in the sixties and
seventies? especially middle class ones?
ScnWrt: Sex is part of nature-emancipation
panta98: Yes, Steve, that's the basis of most
world religions.
plasticsmith: yes!and it's nonsense
ScnWrt: Masochism-fear
panta98: And world religions are monotheistic,
that is, father religions.
plasticsmith: same as political systems paternalistic
iiiiriiiis: ...yes, and by the "theoretical",
ideologized backed up from W. Reich., Franz.
ScnWrt: Religions-mind control
panta98: Is Sex a part of Nature, Carl? Or
is it Eros, Erotic Love?
ScnWrt: Sex and Love are interrelated in nature.
plasticsmith: love...is that hormones?
panta98: Are Sex and Love two independent
entitites? Do they have any relation to
transcendence, to emancipation?
plasticsmith: we should follow this idea.
panta98: So much Love, so much Sex, in the
System, do we still want more beyond?
panta98: Will they be something new, original,
innovative, transcendental?
ScnWrt: They are independent entities. They
will be different, non-commercial.
panta98: This System is Love-Sick, Sex-Perverse!!!
plasticsmith: Geese mate for life - is that
love?
ScnWrt: Totally non - Howard Stern.
iiiiriiiis: Truely so, Franz.
ScnWrt: Agreed, Franz. In this system, sex
- money.
panta98: Again, Carl's famous fundamental
question: How Do We Excel in Doing, in
Action?
panta98: It seems to me nobody knows, nobody
does, nobody wants to.
ScnWrt: We start by doing creative art every
day
ScnWrt: Iris and Khalid: What are your view
on emancipation?
plasticsmith: nothing new about sex-money...as
soon as women realized the power of it
it became a comodity
panta98: Excellent. What is "creative", what
is "art", Carl?
panta98: Please inform us, we're sitting on
the telephione-line.
Panta98: Of course, anybody can reply. Carl,
is not in front of the Final Judgement
Stool!
ScnWrt: Totally new, outside the system. You'll
know what it is when you see it
panta98: Khalid, tell us something about any
creative, artistic, emancipatory act in your
life.
plasticsmith: I have heard it said creativity
is the art of hiding your sources
panta98: Carl, you know it know already. tell
us something about faraway places.
ScnWrt: Agreed, Franz. I encourage all of
you to state their views
panta98: We've not been there. we're approximating,
seeing the beauty on the horizon
already.
ScnWrt: Creativity is hiding nothing
frogmobile: Carl in response to your question
I think it will be unfair to do so in a few words
I
need "more space" and time to explain
ScnWrt: Khalid, perhaps you can state 1 or
2 basic points
plasticsmith: I have never tried it with a
peanut...how is it possible
ScnWrt: Peanuts are nutritive plant protein
iiiiriiiis: Carl, it's very difficult to explain:
some points we already named, e.g to
interrelate what has being cut during the
de-socialization and de-naturalization
process. This presupposes, that we have to
act and think bejony the range of formal
logics - or more precise: to identify first
to what extent we have been "damaged",
that is, going for the "know thyself"
iiiiriiiis: ...Franz mentioned some moments
ago.
iiiiriiiis: That is: its a process, not something
"to be done or thought one time, then
finished"...
plasticsmith: I'll keep that in mind as the
years go by
ScnWrt: Iris, for this, I suggest that everyone
visit the psychosynthesis sites. I will send
you URL's later
iiiiriiiis: ok, do so, Carl.
ScnWrt: Peanuts-nutritious plant protein
frogmobile: Carl, the first act of emancipation
in my life was freedom from the dogmas of
religion.
iiiiriiiis: I'll have a look on it - although
I think we have to do our very own
psychosyntesis.
iiiiriiiis: At least, I don't trust in patriarcal
psycology.
ScnWrt: Agreed, that's what psychosynthesis
is all about.
plasticsmith: Identify the extent of our damage...that
is a most important idea Iris.
ScnWrt: It's not patriarchial psychology
iiiiriiiis: yes, and quite a lifelong job,
Steve
plasticsmith: Can you elaborate on that idea
iiiiriiiis: invited Franz
frogmobile: by reading and understanding the
indoctrinating role and dominancy of religion
and
its impact and influence on my thinking and
practise in living
plasticsmith: I'm still assessing the damage
panta98 has entered the room.
ScnWrt: You can use psychosynthesis techniques
to determine the nature and extent of
the dsamage. I will give an example in my
message
panta98: OK!
ScnWrt: I used it on myself. It works.
panta98: I'm reading .....
iiiiriiiis: Back, Franz - we are on psychosynthesis
right now.
iiiiriiiis: I'll have a look on it - although
I think we have to do our very own
psychosyntesis.
panta98: Carl, what on earth is that now again?
Jung, Gurdieff?
panta98: I only studied photosynthesis.
ScnWrt: Not Jung, Gurdjieff-Your own individual
analytical method.
ScnWrt: I'll send the URL's. See for yourself
ScnWrt: Psychosynthesis works outside the
system
plasticsmith: photosynthisis=vegatable life
psycothinsis= human life...interchangable?
plasticsmith: It's closing time folks...I
got a go..once again ..it was a slice
frogmobile: bye Steve
iiiiriiiis: ok, Steve, it was a pleasure,
take care! Bye.
plasticsmith: bye all
ScnWrt: Not really, Steve. You develop your
own techniques to connect to the higher
level of your subconscious. It works
ScnWrt: OK, till next time, Steve. Good night
ScnWrt: We don't need to stay on Psychosynthesis
iiiiriiiis: hopefully it works now, Franz.
panta98: Worse even, slowly, my monitor is
saying farewell to me, I'll have to buy a
new one. Everything is now as green as grass.
panta98: ... as green as ....
iiiiriiiis: my problem is, that there might
be valid points made - but should we not better
apply our own method also in this field, also
to check if we are "on the right track"?
iiiiriiiis: Steve had to go and close, Franz.
panta98: I'm following, Iris, ....
iiiiriiiis: Psycology, as we have been discussing
several times...
panta98: OK!
iiiiriiiis: has been desarrollada for special
reasons...
iiiiriiiis: as Franz and you have discussed
quite some months ago.
ScnWrt: Psychosynthesis is just a tool. Quite
simple. No big deal. Check it out
iiiiriiiis: Ok, I'll do so.
panta98: Is official psychology not one of
the most reactionary social sciences today?
panta98: What about the relation of Wilhelm
reich's psychology to Tesla's Natural
Science?
ScnWrt: Yes, Franz, but psychosynthesis is
not psychology.
panta98: why does nobody study Reich's Psychology;
he has so much to tell us about
mental transcendence?
iiiiriiiis: but even though, I think we already
have our own, powerful tools, Carl, or not
"powerful", but "excellent". And yes, Franz
- it is one of the reactionary social
sciences.
iiiiriiiis: Gendlin and all included.
panta98: Also, by the way, about "The Sexual
revolution"!
iiiiriiiis: ---that's what I indicated before,
Franz
ScnWrt: Wilhem Reich's ideas are not psychology
iiiiriiiis: Yes, thay are, Carl.
iiiiriiiis: It was of the marxist variant
panta98: Then, what did he tell us about "Mass
Psychology of Fascism"?
frogmobile: On psychology..the main function
was to discover the self, to understand the
individual, to find the "truth that make you
free," according to psychologists
panta98: About the "scapegoat" and 'identification
with the attacker" principles?
ScnWrt: I am unfamiliar with Reich's relation
to Marxism
panta98: He was a Marxist psychologist, Carl.
panta98: He criticized Fascism as well as
Stalinism.
ScnWrt: I didn't realize that
iiiiriiiis: He said e.g.: it should not be
asked why a worker does strike and why the poor steals
panta98: He and Erich Fromm are some of the
most outstanding modern Marxist
psychologists.
iiiiriiiis: Why the exploited worker doesn't
strike?
ScnWrt: He photographed the blue light energy
of the mind which is derived from the
Tesla ether
iiiiriiiis: and the poor, who has nothing
to eat, doesn't steal...
frogmobile: Yes! he was and probably the "most
interesting." He wrote a famous book "The
Mass Psychology of Fascism"
panta98: He explained about sexual repression,
about religious sexual repression, and
how this is being channeled towards aggression,
utilized by nazi and fascist
governments.
ScnWrt: I am familiar only with Reich's biophysics
ideas
frogmobile: Yes, Iris
iiiiriiiis: Thanks, Franz - I can't that fastly
panta98: He also explained what sexual repression
of women implies.
ScnWrt: Please explain, Iris and Khalid
frogmobile: Erich Fromm's work is a must read
also
panta98: And, in his practical studies, like
Fanon, he combined his psychological
results with physics, with Orgone Theory.
the same thing which Tesla discovered.
ScnWrt: I think he said this was all due to
suppression of orgone energy
iiiiriiiis: Thanks, Franz.
ScnWrt: Agreed. Franz
panta98: Yes, the sexual repression, the religious
repression, causes suppression of life
energy, of orgone, causing psychosoamtic diseases,
cancer, etc. And he could even heal
cancer by using and applying his orgone diagnostics
and methods.
iiiiriiiis: ...but his book "cancer" isn't
available anymore...
ScnWrt: Folks, I don't advocate psychology.
I am only asking you to have an open mind
to some ideas
iiiiriiiis: No problem, Carl!
panta98: Yes, I urgently suggest that we should
read the major works of Reich.
panta98: I use him in my university class:
Political Psychology.
ScnWrt: Agreed, Franz
panta98: Together with Fromm, Marcuse and
Fanon.
iiiiriiiis: Great class, by the way!
ScnWrt: He was quite a threat. Died in jail.
iiiiriiiis: Yes, declared to be totally nuts...
panta98: yes, another one who was declared
loco, crazy, when he was the most sane of
them all.
panta98: He was too dangerous in his epoch.
iiiiriiiis: ...and in the meanwhile they exploited
his thoughts, researching and applying it.
frogmobile: Carl, Fascism according to him
cannot be attributed solely to economic factors or
direction
from the political leadership. It is inherently
a collective expression of what is the human
being as
a result of his/her repressed biological and
sexual needs because of authorian control and
dogmas.
panta98: Also his "sexual revolution", setting
free the life and sexual energy of the
youth of the 60's, of the anti-imperialist
and student movement, was too much for the
"Cold war".
ScnWrt: He accidentally discovered a USA-built
flying saucer that uses Tesla
technology. He was imprisoned to silence him.
Ask Bill Lyne.
panta98: In this context, comes Elvis Presley.
He appealed to the Sexual Revolution, to
the suppressed life energy of the youth, especially
women.
iiiiriiiis: but it had also another level,
Franz - W.Reich's "revolution" I mean
panta98: But, love me Tender is not what Reich
had in mind!
iiiiriiiis: ok
panta98: Also, not the "Hound Dog".
panta98: Rather: "I got Stung!"
ScnWrt: Franz, this is evident in Graceland,
Memphis, Tennessee, USA, home of Elvis
panta98: Which level, Iris/!
panta98: Who sleeps twice with the same partner,
belongs to the establishment/
panta98: That parole, watchword?
iiiiriiiis: What we discussed some years ago,
Franz, can't explain it so fast - would you
do so, please - already did.
panta98: Khalid, still around?
iiiiriiiis: yes..and the impact, meaning -->
atomization of relations on this level
panta98: We're entering your field, you are
the expert!
panta98: Yes, iris!
panta98: Iris, there was not much to atomize.
Bourgeois love relations, ever since the
romantic epoch, were atomized, Marx and hegel
would say' alienated ',
thing-relations,
ossified marital relations, money-relations.
ScnWrt: This still exists today
frogmobile: He concludes that human beings
must come to grips or be forced to realize their
ability to engage in "potential 'mass' destructiveness,"
as a result of their belonging to what he
term as "organise mysticism."
iiiiriiiis: yes, thanks for the correction,
for präzisieren, Franz - agreed
frogmobile: It is the Church, religion,
and the family that feeds the potential to mass
destruction
frogmobile: I am still around
panta98: Excellent, Guy! More, more, ....
frogmobile: think about Reich
frogmobile: The guy was "radical" man!
panta98: Woh!!! Mas, mas, un poquito mas,
....
iiiiriiiis: but we have gone further than
Reich, it seems to me... more precise.
panta98: You, too, taking things at their
roots, to root them out, to become radical. ....
frogmobile: reading his works is always refreshing
panta98: How far did he go, Iris?
frogmobile: as well as that of Erich Frommm.
iiiiriiiis: I'm not sure if Reich has questioned
the none relation of nature-society, the
labour process.
panta98: He experienced the barriers of his
time, Iris. Just like each one of us.
frogmobile: There is a great book by Erich
Fromm " the art of love." Probably one of his
best
frogmobile: I recommed it
iiiiriiiis: Yes, Franz.
panta98: He, like many others, had set his
"hopes" on the socialist revolution, on the
Soviet Union, in the first place.
frogmobile: But like everyone else they were
deceived
panta98: Now, you see, Khalid! The Art
Of Loving. A brilliant masterpiece about
emancipation, but we transcend it.
panta98: Also a booklet about "The Little
Man". the man on the street, his wishes, his
desires.
frogmobile: yes it is indeed brillant without
arguments
frogmobile: Also read guys "The Sane Society."
panta98: Guys, by the way. what is Love, Loving,
Lovingness, in our context?
frogmobile: Lets not get into such complicated
topic now. Its too vast
panta98: Is Love not perhaps another catchword,
an essential element of ideology, like
the concept "human being"?
frogmobile: most likely.
panta98: Love Thy Neighbour As Thyself!
panta98: Love Thy Father In Heaven!
panta98: Would one single record of Elvis
sell, if this "Love" has not been
disseminated until the highest degree of vomitting?
panta98: Love For The Fatherland!
ScnWrt: Love is a component of the survival
instinct. Continuolusly changes.This
needs to be developed. Relation of love to
technology.
iiiiriiiis: Love, Hope, Freedom, Peace, yes,
Franz - just another ideological element, as
you said.
frogmobile: LOVE is now an "ideological expession"
that denotes domination and control.
panta98: Oh! Carl. tTecho-Party! Techno-Love!!
Let's go, to the rhythm of
Techno-Music!!!
ScnWrt: Relation of love to technology and
space colonization are key
ScnWrt: That's the way it is today, Franz
iiiiriiiis: I'm somehow a little affected
by music those days, gentlemen...
panta98: Embrace your STAUBSAUGER, your refrigerator,
your TV!!!
iiiiriiiis: ...Hahahahha Franz!!!! You got
it, man!
panta98: It tickles the heart, and confuses
the brain!
iiiiriiiis: You are so right!
frogmobile: ... and makes you "dizzy"
ScnWrt: Love can be emancifying.
panta98: Carl, in what sense?
frogmobile: What is Love?
frogmobile: It is about Care, Respect, Knowledge....!
Emancipation too.
ScnWrt: Love requires that it tanscend the
system. Otherwise, no love.
panta98: Yes, Khalid, that's what I wanted
to know before! Please, please tell me.... I
am very close to the phone, "put your sweet
lips a little loser to the phone. ...?
frogmobile: I know the song, Franz, Remember
we used to listen to it.
ScnWrt: Love is responsibility and commitment,
even when we're on the phone
(technology).
frogmobile: Why Lips and not "Voice" or something
else?
ScnWrt: It could be voice e-mail.
frogmobile: You are right, Carl, Responsibility!
panta98: I actually agree with you, Carl.
My only problem is, what is love, which
specific ingredient of emancipation? Is it
a Love-Act, A Love-Thought, a
Transcendental Eternal Love? None, All, Neither-Nor?
frogmobile: It is a multiple choice "gigaloooo"!
ScnWrt: It's love-All, outside the system.
panta98: Well, I'll invent Love-Mail, to be
trans- scended, -mitted through
Cyber-space!!!!
ScnWrt: Excellent, Franz.
frogmobile: go for it Franz.
panta98: Excellent, Carl. Why do the most
complex questions have such simple
answers? Strange.
panta98: Khalid, we've begun the project long
ago already. It's in full swing, only,
Mother Cosmos, forgive us, we do not know
what we're DOING!
frogmobile: True.
ScnWrt: Iris, any comment?
panta98: What Love do we still need to sit
and chat like this? Such contents, such
sincerity, such fun, such joy, such loving
"crew"? So different, so diverse, so triverse!
panta98: We're family! Love-Family!!! Yes
"Sister"!
iiiiriiiis: My comments, Carl, I'm having
my fun here! Listening, please proceed...
ScnWrt: OK, Iris.
frogmobile: Communication and understanding
is the key to friendship
ScnWrt: It's all here in this chat.
panta98: Friendship, love, need no key, they
are open doors for emancipation.
panta98: Who needs a key, has something to
hide, some private property.
ScnWrt: On target, Franz
ScnWrt: Love=Emancipation.
panta98: Yes, on hundreds of HTML's in the
meantime!
frogmobile: Franz, you are indulging in semantics
frogmobile: "Key"
panta98: Well, Guy! I'll change over the "security,
safety belts" in the Middle Ages,
where we need no "semantic keys".
frogmobile: Rub it in "good guy".
frogmobile: Chastity belts.
panta98: Oh. Khalid, what do you think about
the virtue "chastity" --- is that not also
an emancipatory element?
panta98: How about a belt, a key?
frogmobile: Yes! It means freedom to self-indulge.
panta98: Khalid, I love to tease you. I simply
love you!!!
iiiiriiiis: I'm laughing my head off, here....
!!!
frogmobile: Me too, We have a history of teasing
for decades.
panta98: Me, too.
panta98: Poor Carl!!!
iiiiriiiis: incredible...
ScnWrt: I'm listening
frogmobile: sometimes we are also very harsh,
but ultimately we learnt to know each other well.
panta98: That's better, Carl. one should not
get too much involved in key questions!
ScnWrt: Franz, tease on, MacDuff
iiiiriiiis: : Carl!
panta98: OK, let's get serious again, leaving
mon-key tricks behind!
frogmobile: Monkey tricks are also emancipating.
panta98: Else we'll laugh for don-key years!!!
frogmobile: It is also good to relax.
frogmobile: It is health an do good for your
health.
panta98: Yes, Pandemonium is not only "hard
work", "brain-wrecking". it's "great" fun!
THE CHAT DELIGHTFULLY FADES INTO WHITE ASHES
panta98: Guys, for the sake of Iris, and also
because we've had a tough day, can we
say
Gute nacht for today??
frogmobile: Yes! sure
panta98: I had real fun!
iiiiriiiis: ok, same here, Franz!
panta98: Please send me the few lines, which
I missed, while I was off key!
frogmobile: Carl, Iris and Franz it was great.
iiiiriiiis: Yes, don't worry, I got the whole
transcript.
panta98: Khalid, it was tremendous to have
you around!
frogmobile: as always
panta98: Carl, you were the best!
frogmobile: he is always
iiiiriiiis: Yes, it was a pleasure.
panta98: I'll complete the previous chats
in the next days.
frogmobile: and so is Iris for her patience
panta98: Khalid, can you correct this one
for me too, please.
frogmobile: Sure, I will
panta98: I'll send it, and Carl & iris
could send the parts which are absent.
panta98: OK, sytraight now, I'll send you
what I have.
frogmobile: I have here, will save it and
send it tomorrow.
panta98: Khalid, Bye! You are just a bad,
bad, guy!!!
frogmobile: That you good guy.
frogmobile: Bye
panta98: Carl, Gute Nacht!!! Es hatte Spass
gemacht!!!
panta98: Yes, you do.
frogmobile: No! I have saved it however I
missed one of Carl's comment
panta98: Khalid came a bit late, Iris!
frogmobile: Carl are you there?
panta98: The first part is absent, send that
part!
ScnWrt: Gute Nacht, Khalid.