25th July, 2000
panta98: I'm listening. .... any remarks
about the aforesaid, please.
frogmobile: So far so good
iiiiriiiis: Now, which are the conditions
or factors you talked about, Franz? Or is this a estas
alturas a question which isn't either
a valid question - in our current context?
iiiiriiiis: I'm asking because also
the term "Possibility" raised, and I'm not sure in which
direction you would like to go now.
panta98: Iris, please give me some factors,
you deem important.
panta98: An important factor is consistancy
in what you do or say!
iiiiriiiis: Maybe that in the first
place there "is" and "exists" "something" beyond the realm of
the labour process? iiiiriiiis: Ok,
I asked the question in another context... I was reading
back... - let's go ahead.
panta98: Then, another is Carl's favourite,
responsibility.
panta98: Where on earth, do we still
find that?
iiiiriiiis: In Us I think, Franz.
panta98: I'm counting down the factors
already, of a not "totally" destroyed
natural-cosmic being and existence,
Iris.
frogmobile: People are embroiled in
their daily "economic" activities also there is the "false
consciousness" effect.
panta98: Who does and thinks his/her
total life, in accordance with what he/she does in a
parallel world of "emancipation"?
iiiiriiiis: Yes, I noted it, Franz -
please forget about the way I put the question.
panta98: Is that what we do here totally
divorced from our real life tomorrow, at work,
with the family, in the street?
panta98: Is this not perhaps a "hobby",
something extra, special, but not directly connected
to real life, where one must work, earn
his daily bread.
panta98: If this is the case, then we
have flashes of emancipation, but not real constant
natural action and social thinking.
Not Emancipation!
panta98: Now, I'm interested in your
views.
iiiiriiiis: That is precisely what I
indicated in my letter to the crew, at least, those are our
exeriences. To note, that accordingly
to the ruling logics, "thinking, thought" and "acts,
doing" was non-related...
panta98: This part of the text, of the
chat that is deliberately inter-twined, is socialized.
panta98: I'm trying to indicate the
complication, the circumference of What Is To Be
Done!
iiiiriiiis: We experienced some "clase
magistral-fans", to put it kindly. As you
mentioned before: No relation whatsoever
'between' the discussions and "real life".
panta98: We do not select a day, some
hours, to go and do social work.
frogmobile: continue
panta98: And, logically, we'll get into
trouble in real life, when we practice
emancipatory action.
panta98: Coming back to what Khalid
once stressed: Where is the seriousness, the
consistency, the militancy in daily
Praxis?
panta98: What Is daily Praxis? In contradictinction
to what everybody does out there,
including work and leisure.
frogmobile: I think because Man transcends
nature.
frogmobile: we lost our original home
"nature" - and will never be able to return to it nor
can we ever become an "animal" or whatever
we were before, again.
panta98: There exists no formal logics,
dualism, between "Work" and "Emancipatory
Action".
iiiiriiiis: In the final analysis, what
we are discussing about, is the famous "divide et impera"-
Ideology and Practise. No seriousness,
consistency, nowhere. Exactly:
dualistic either-or relation.
panta98: Yes, part of you, Khalid, not
the total you, is materially de-naturalized.
ScnWrt: Hi, folks
iiiiriiiis: Glad you're back again,
Carl.
panta98: If everything was de-materialized,
de-naturalized, then you would be one of the 6
billion"zombies" already.
frogmobile: True Franz, and the only
other alternative left with us is to "emerge" from our
natural state and "create" a new home,
a "home" that would transcend our previous
instincts into becoming into a truly
"human" ourselves.
panta98: And you won't be here, here
in Cyberspace with us!
panta98: You are not yet totally de-naturalized,
not totally dissocialized.
panta98: However, the deteriorating
process, like the lucha, continues, unless ....
panta98: And that's what I'm talking
about. ....
frogmobile: The fact of the matter is
when we were born we were thrown out of situation
that was definite and sure into one
of great uncertainty, insecurity, dependent and tied to
others for our emotional, physical and
mental survival
ScnWrt: I'm reading the transcript that
I saved so far.
panta98: We were born, already partially
cloned, clowns, from partially denaturalized
bodies, our own poor mothers, may mine
rest in peace. ....
ScnWrt: We create our own dependency
and insecurity.
panta98: No wonder that we have such
problems with our parents. ...
ScnWrt: Mine, too, Franz.
panta98: They are the first ones to
identify, to identify our womb. ...
frogmobile: We as part of the life process
have become forever linked to others for our
daily "sustenance," without which we
will not survive from a baby to an adult despite the
indoctrination.
panta98: And they were not exactly emancipators.
...
panta98: And they dissocialized us heavily
in the cradle already.
ScnWrt: We were taught that Bullscheisse.
panta98: I know that you love your moms,
no problem, truth is truth. I love my Mom, but
I love the Truth more.
panta98: The problem is that late, very
late, nearly too late, we discover what is what.
ScnWrt: Now we have to be our own mothers.
frogmobile: Each step of life can be
also very frightening at times. Franz forget what they
the parents have done but it "is" and
"was" US that was left to define for
ourselfves what we think we are.
panta98: It's at this late hour, at
the eleventh hour, that we must learn new, original actions.
...
panta98: That's the problem. ...
frogmobile: The paradox of our existence
is we were 'thrown or booted out of "nature",
and into a situation which is indefinite
and unsure.
panta98: There exists no real material
base, nothing natural out there, to perform
emancipatory action. ...
ScnWrt: No problem, Franz. The human
organism is quite flexible.
panta98: At least not on the face value,
not in this "material world" of Madonna.
frogmobile: Thus that's the reason why
we are discussing What is emancipation here?
panta98: But we are a reflection, a
microcosm of "Mother Nature", who also is not totally
destroyed. ...
ScnWrt: We'll create the new material
base.
ScnWrt: Agreed, Franz.
frogmobile: Yes, agreed Franz.
panta98: If this were the case, we could
not even try, talk about emancipatory action.
panta98: We would have no cosmic base,
no substratum, to operate. ....
ScnWrt: We need to rediscover Mother
Nature.
iiiiriiiis: That is... We are Nature,
in other terms: Cosmos...
ScnWrt: Agreed, Iris.
panta98: The trouble is to sense real,
true, still living nature.
frogmobile: Therefore interestly "our"
existence have become one of a "sea of
contradictions" in a never ending search
for "unity" with "nature"; also within
ourselves and with other fellow human
beings.
panta98: To recuperate our sense perception,
to get rid of its merchandise flavour.
ScnWrt: A good place to discover Mother
Nature may be a space community.
panta98: You don't need to go back to
Nature, ....
panta98: Nothing about unity and harmony
with Nature.
panta98: That's Flower Power ideology!
panta98: You are Nature, what you are,
you need not join.
ScnWrt: We never go back. We make new
contacts.
panta98: Unless you are pure spirit,
a holy zombie.
frogmobile: This situation determines
all of our reason, passions, needs, affects,
knowledge, strengths, character, emotions
and anxieties.
panta98: We "start", we "begin" what
we still are, real, true Nature.
frogmobile: What's "Flower Power ideology."
frogmobile: I am not saying that we
will ever go back?
panta98: The flower power of the sixties,
the hippy ideology.
frogmobile: Go back to what I refer
as "nature" Franz.
panta98: Or the Afro-American Back To
Africa, to Liberia Dream!
ScnWrt: Marcus Garvey-didn't work out.
panta98: Or Rousseau's "noble savage's"
dreams, euphoria, delirium.
panta98: Well, that's the natural part.
Most interesting is the intellectual part.
panta98: What about Emancipatory Thinking?
iiiiriiiis: I think Franz is trying
to emphazise, that "searching" for "nature" is just not
"necessary", because as we state - methodologically
and epistemologically: We are, We are
Cosmos - Nature.
panta98: Which ghosts must first disappear
from our mind, before we can even begin
thinking?
panta98: Please give me some ideas,
examples?
frogmobile: I don't know what Franz
is trying to relate here but certainly we are driving in a
different road.
panta98: What are the sine qua non,
mental conditions, to launch emancipatory
thought?
ScnWrt: Wishful thinking is a ghost.
panta98: Yep! Carl. D'accord!
panta98: Iris, some basic conditions?
iiiiriiiis: Cosmos.
frogmobile: What is emancipatory thought.....to
put it simple its then just another form of
ideology.
iiiiriiiis: Being Nature.
panta98: Khalid, somethings which we
must first overcome. In one of them you were a
specialist. I taught you!
ScnWrt: Franz, start Emancipatopry process
by engaging in creative activity, e.g., art,
music, writing.
frogmobile: Guys its 7.30, I have to
go.
iiiiriiiis: The indeterminated, and
"determination" of "thinking"..
panta98: Carl, in order to obatin emancipation
one must get rid of all ghosts, spirits,
zombies!
ScnWrt: Agreed, Franz.
iiiiriiiis: Ok, Khalid, take care, see
you next Tuesday.
ScnWrt: Sorry that you gotta leave,
man.
frogmobile: Goodnight.
ScnWrt: Gute nacht, Khalid.
iiiiriiiis: Franz, please any comment
to what I stated?
panta98: He/She/It must clear his/her/its
mind, first, from all Western, Christian,
"Civilized", religious Ghosts.
ScnWrt: Saving transcript.
iiiiriiiis: Ok, thanks, Franz.
panta98: With these ghosts Labour, Capital
started Mind control in Europe and spread it
across the globe.
panta98: Without the above, well done
in feudalist Europe, capitalism would have been
impossible to operate. iiiiriiiis: Obviously,
I still do have difficulties to identify- on which
degree we are discussing - sorry Franz
and Carl.
ScnWrt: Today, a spectre is haunting
the globe-It's called Pandemonium.
panta98: Iris, I'm simply saying: Condition
No. 1. Any emancipator should get his mind
straight concerning any religious, spiritual
and ghost forms of thought-destruction.
panta98: A believer believes, cannot
think.
panta98: A thinker thinks, does not
believe.
panta98: The two are formal-logical
opposites which totally exclude each other.
iiiiriiiis: Yes, thank you, got it,
Franz, proceed - I just was referring to my comment.
panta98: In this way, I apply formal-logics
to its fullest, at its best!
ScnWrt: A thinker takes responsibility
for his/her actions.
iiiiriiiis: That's the point, Carl:
for his ACTIONS.
panta98: Carl, agreed. To that aspect
we'll come later.
panta98: Please remind me.
ScnWrt: OK, proceed.
iiiiriiiis: I'm following.
panta98: Really, if one does not get
rid of the labour view of God, forget about
emancipation, about thinking.
panta98: Hence, Rule 1, find out on
Internet if someone believes, believes in some religious
or spiritual phantasm.
panta98: If so, forget the whole story!
panta98: Don't waste precious emancipatory
"time".
panta98: Condition No. 2.
iiiiriiiis: D'accord, Franz.
panta98: Find out, who still has "hopes"
for capitalism, for the New World Order, for the
World System, ....
iiiiriiiis: If so...forget it...
panta98: Who believes in Work, Labour,
in Evolution, in Improvement of the System, in
Change Only From Within, then ...
iiiiriiiis: Let him/her enjoy it...
panta98: Rule 2, don't waste more time.
panta98: Who wants to redistribute Wealth,
Do something For the Poor, Recruit Anybody
For The Salvation Army,
panta98: forget your patience and politeness,
as Bill uses to say!
iiiiriiiis: and see above...
ScnWrt: That depends, Some may have
the potential to change.
panta98: In other words, discover who
is a Reformer, a Reconciliator, then you'll know
that not even emancipatory ashes are
left.
ScnWrt: Emancipation is a process.
panta98: Our emancipatoy Action (Work)
is getting less, more easy. ... Do you note it.
ScnWrt: Franz, unless they are willing
to change.
panta98: We're gaining so much needed
time. .....
panta98: The will is strong but the
consumption pecuniary flesh is weak, Carl.
ScnWrt: D'accord, Franz. But it can
be strengthened.
panta98: A strong will must be based
on firm emancipatory action, guided by
intellectual clarity.
panta98: If not, God will cherish, will
come to be.
ScnWrt: Agreed, Franz. Review Assagioli's
concept of the will.
panta98: As long as there still remains
something left like Real Nature - True Society, that
half-man, half-emancipator, who we are
and how we exist.
ScnWrt: And why we exist.
panta98: I don't doubt that many of
us live on this planet. But how should we
differentiate the sheep from the wolves?
panta98: I began explaining above already;
The Rules, The Conditions.
panta98: So many wolves in sheep clothing,
so few sheep in wolf's clothing!
panta98: Iris, Khalid, still around,
chasing wolves,
panta98: Yes, we've to come to an agreement
with Allah!
ScnWrt: Lots of sheep in wolves clothing-afraid
of risk, responsibility and commitment.
panta98: Then we've to get things straight
with Labour.
panta98: Rule 3, Condition 3.
panta98: It's not all gold that glitters.
panta98: "It's not all human that thinks
on two legs."*
panta98: There we really have a problem.
Ideology, Culture, Humanitarianism,
Humanism have all taken us on a wild-goose
chase, for a ride.
panta98: How do we identify a Human
Being?
panta98: Are there really 6 000 000
000 human beings on this planet.
panta98: A delicate issue, I admit.
panta98: But this really interests us.
panta98: And we cannot continue with
notions born across millennia of DDDD and then
still think about Emancipation, which
was never ever a part of DDDD, and the "human
beings" which it produced.
panta98: Yes, who does not know what
a "human being" is, and repeats the "human being"
ideology sown across millennia, surely
will have a grievous problem with Emancipation.
panta98: This is the hardest bone for
us to chew. Your comments, please!
panta98: By the way, I forgot to say,
Bye!to Khalid.
panta98: Yes, Iris &Carl, any comments?
iiiiriiiis: Carl, please....
panta98: Are you so schocked?
panta98: Emancipation is a shocking
endeavour!
panta98: We have to check ideology,
mind and thought control in it's very essence.
iiiiriiiis: That is: "human being" is
determined by a certain relation to nature...
ScnWrt: Hi
panta98: The problem is that the slave-drivers,
the Caesars, the Conquistadores, the Nazis,
the Fascists, those Americans who dropped
the bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki, who
nearly rotted out the Vietcong, they
were very clear what's a "human being".
panta98: And what's not one!
panta98: They, who taught us so thoroughly
what's a "human being", are now the
paradigms, the examples, of how we should
differentiate the "human being".
panta98: If this is not done and thought,
we'll fall back on the same level as the Slave
Emancipation, the Class Struggle, the
Women's Lib, etc. This is the very reason, why
nobody ever emancipated anybody.
panta98: Simply because nobody ever
wanted to emancipate itself, did not know what to
emancipate, namely. iiiiriiiis: Yes,
for example Aristoteles which you implicitely mentioned,
was quite clear on who`s "human" or
not...
panta98: Nature a n d Society, real
Hisory, Historians.
panta98: And not a perverse, unilateral
Human Being.
iiiiriiiis: ..For him, those performing
physical labour, were "speaking tools"...
iiiiriiiis: Is Carl still around, Franz?
panta98: A true emancipator does not
destroy his material self, Nature, with Physical
Labour.
ScnWrt: Listening.
iiiiriiiis: ok, Carl.
panta98: A real emancipator does not
destroy Society, by dividing it into classes, against
Nature, and then nurture "Class Struggle"
and "Accumulation of Capital",
ScnWrt: A human being-emancipator.
panta98: Within these limits, you have
Exterminators, Destructors, Killers, Assassins and
their Victims, but not Emancipators
or Historians, no relations Nature a n d Society AND
History.
panta98: Who is a Killer cannot be emancipated,
and who is already killed by a Killer,
cannot be emancipated either.
iiiiriiiis: That is in other words:
does not perceive a dualistic "Inner-" versus "Outer-"World,
i.e. "Nature" at one, "Society" at the
other side, and furthermore does not split him/herself
in "I" (Thinking) and "my body"... (Acting)
ScnWrt: There were some emancipators,
e.g., Tesla and Reich.
panta98: Another macabre, cruel, brutal
truth and reality.
panta98: And, I, so loving, lovely and
tender must state it -- it nearly breaks my heart!
ScnWrt: Iris, d'accord! The One=Emancipation.
panta98: Yes, they exactly related in
conformity with Nature and Society, that's why they
made authentic, real, original discoveries.
iiiiriiiis: Not only, Carl - it's one
aspect... I just wanted to underline, how strictly the
"either-or" principle is applied in
all aspects...
panta98: So, Carl, you can imagine what
the Illuminati "discovers" and "develop"
technologically today.
panta98: The total domination and destruction
of Nature.
panta98: At least, as far as earthly
nature is concerned.
ScnWrt: Except, today, the Illuminati
is split.
ScnWrt: One 1/2 sees the self-destruct.
panta98: They all talk about "humanity",
"rights" and "peace", and they damn well know
that the planet is doomed.
ScnWrt: Except the planet isn't doomed
thanks to the resistors.
panta98: In other words, that homo sapiens
is doomed to a horrible, terrible death -- will
roast, suffocate, starve, have million
sicknesses at a time, will disintegrate radio-actively.
....
ScnWrt: Not with the resistors out there.
panta98: If nobody knows it, I know
that this thing is dying away, is already in coma. ...
ScnWrt: Not entiely, Franz. Wait and
see...
panta98: The species, materially and
intellectually, is rotting away, that's why cloning,
bio-genetics, engineering, etc.
ScnWrt: Not entirely.
panta98: Very soon, billions will have
to believe in this, and are they not
"human beings" ...
iiiiriiiis: In which sense do you mean
"not entirely", Carl?
ScnWrt: Cloning, bioenginering, etc.
is being done due to the fear of the human
potential.
ScnWrt: Iris, the resistors - remarkable
people everywhere.
panta98: Who rules this world, who makes
business, makes money profits, fame, power,
did they ever care about a "human being"?
Did they ever consider billions of creatures as
"human beings"/ well, if a human being
is to betreated as they did, then a human being is
not worth a farthing, is something not
worth bothering about, less so, emancipate.
iiiiriiiis: They didn't, Franz, they
didn't care.
panta98: Carl, I agree with you. It's
you, you're talking about, about us, but,
unfortunately, believe it or not, we're
not "human beings".
ScnWrt: Franz, their rule will not last.
iiiiriiiis: we're the 'only' lost....
panta98: Carl, I agree with you. It's
you, you about whom we're talking, about us, but,
unfortunately, believe it or not, we're
not "human beings". Here, I've even to believe, to
make this clear.
ScnWrt: Agreed.
panta98: The so-called "human being"
is a genus, is generic, is not an individual
existence. Only Killers, Assasins, Power-Mongers,
Blood-Suckers, are appearances of the
genus, the species "Human Being".
ScnWrt: Do you read my writing?
panta98: This is reality, Labour History
proves it all over, everywhere, at all times.
panta98: Who has still eyes can see
it!
iiiiriiiis: Yes, Carl, I read you.
ScnWrt: Thanks
panta98: Yes, Carl.
panta98: I'm a human being, is a nonsensical
statement.
ScnWrt: However, we are on the road
to change.
panta98: It's like saying, I'm an animal.
panta98: Yes, Carl. We're on the road
to change.
iiiiriiiis: WE.
panta98: Could you give us some examples,
please, Carl.
panta98: "We" is another genius, another
generic name, it has very little to do with the
genius homo, homo spiens.
ScnWrt: Not on the Road to Mandalay.
panta98: A "We" by definition is a loving
We, is an emancipator.
iiiiriiiis: It's a differentation...
panta98: The human beings are egoistic,
are isolated "I"'s, a concoction thrown
together, who live like wolves together
with sheep.
ScnWrt: Yep, Franz. Not the We by Zemiatin,
which predated Orwell's 1984.
panta98: Exactly, Carl.
ScnWrt: Stuck in their egos.
panta98: Just look how You and I, without
ever having met in real everyday life, how We
are "we-ing" daily!
panta98: That's a genius, a species
apart!
panta98: How we behave, how we act,
how we assist others, contrast this to everyday life
outside there.
panta98: No wonder that the wolves fear
contradictions, relations!
ScnWrt: D'accord, Franz.
panta98: We have a tough job to unite,
to differentiate, to triversify us, to emancipate
ourselves.
panta98: If we're "lucky", and we succeed,
perhaps, then, we could devote our time and
energy to global, galactic emancipation.
iiiiriiiis: Yes, that's why some perceive
us as being sort of a sect..., because they
themselves cannot relate, because they
"act" (practise) and "think"(ideologize) differently....
panta98: I've nothing against such an
endeavour, but, poor me, I'm zillions of
light-years from home.
iiiiriiiis: ...but it's not a question
of quantity, Franz
panta98: Emancipation is a quantitative
matter, but not ONLY ....
ScnWrt: Yep. I also have about 25 intruders
scanning my PC, and after this chat, I get
Agnitum and my ISP get after their arses.
panta98: It's also a quantitative a
n d qualitative issue, but, not ONLY. ....
iiiiriiiis: Yes, Franz, agreed.
panta98: It's also a Quantitative a
n d Qualitative AND Quantumative Issue, but, Not
ONLY, .... MUCH MORE.
panta98: This our Logics teach Us!
ScnWrt: It's also intuitive.
panta98: True, Carl.
panta98: But, that's a "quality", which
very few still possess on earth, certainly the "human
beings" NOT.
ScnWrt: It's transcending--exceeding
our potential.
panta98: That what they call "intuition",
that's not the real thing. ....
ScnWrt: exceeding
panta98: Yes, that's it, and not that
why Jung call's "intuition".
iiiiriiiis: ...after all, remember..
panta98: Also not what he salls, thinking,
sense, etc.
iiiiriiiis: ...wanted to indicate exactly
what you said...
ScnWrt: Jung's only contribution is
that he advocated that lay people can be their own
therapists.
panta98: These "qualities" he got from
the religious lessons of his "mom".
ScnWrt: Yep
panta98: She was in this sense very
"intuitive", giving "tuition" to her son.
panta98: Correct, Carl.
ScnWrt: Also, Freud advocated mistrust
of the patient. One downside of Freudian therapy
is the patient had to spend...
panta98: I am only me, saying the things
how I dearly know and think them.
ScnWrt: Too much time fighting for credibility.
panta98: I needn't be 'right"; oh, how
I wish, I was "wrong". At any event, I respect
anybody's views about her/himself in
paticular, and about "human beings" in general.
Everybody must solve the problem of
her/his essence and existence all by her/himself.
Similarly, I expect respect for my very
serious viewpoints.
panta98: To err is "human", if this
should be so, I would be happier, and also mankind, and
all human beings.
ScnWrt: But you're right.
panta98: The only problem these human
beings have proven me "right' everyday, they get
me sick!
ScnWrt: D'accord, Franz.
panta98: OK, Carl, thanks to be you,
and that you were there, to enjoy the evening with
us.
ScnWrt: Don't get upset, Franz.
panta98: Good Night! Gute Nacht!!!
panta98: See, you! Bye!
ScnWrt: Gute Nacht, Franz and Iris.