p a n d e m o n i u m
     Tuesday Evening International AOL Chat
                                Carl, Iris, Khalid & Franz
                           (Original, slightly edited version)
           Topic: Identification of Man, the Species, the Masses:
                             "Individuality" & "Personality"
 

25th July, 2000



      frogmobile: Hello Carl.
      panta98: I said Hi! already, before you entered, Carl!
      panta98: Khalid too.
      ScnWrt: Thanks, Franz.
      frogmobile: Hi Carl.
      panta98: I assume we should begin.
      frogmobile: Lets get the ball going guys.
      ScnWrt: Agreed.
      panta98: Well, today, let's chat more relaxed about emancipatory action and thought.
      ScnWrt: OK, Franz
      frogmobile: Alright
      panta98: However, in a very simple way, very briefly, let me first place the topic in
      everyday focus.
      ScnWrt: Guys. Gotta join my wife. Will return in 1/2 hour.
      iiiiriiiis: Ok, Carl.
      panta98: Let's talk about the famous "individuality" and "personality".
      panta98: How did we acquire them?
      panta98: Simply as result of the labour process.
      frogmobile: How do we define individuality? What is it when we say "personality."
      panta98: Of denaturalization and dissocialization over decades.
      panta98: These two put together form a certain Mr. F., etc. This "Mr." is formal logically
      and legally identified, and it/he/she identifies it-/him-/herself also as "I" -- as an "individual",
      as a "human being", who acts, thinks and believes.
      panta98: Thus, we have this macabre spectre of 6 billion creatures defending their
      "individuality" and their "human rights".
      panta98: The irony of the story, the effects of DDDD, is that exactly emancipatory, historic
      "individuality", "naturality" and "sociality", all were destroyed across an intensive alienating
      process of "physical training", "mental education", customs, culture, norms and cicilization,
      etc.
      panta98: Now, there we are, half-mained, half-crazy, with a few emancipatory sparks and
      ashes left. The more concretely we are integrated in the physical labour process, the more
      denaturalized we are.
      panta98: The more educated we are; spiritually integrated by intellectual labour, also by
      manipulation and indoctrination, the more dissocialized we exist.
      panta98: Of course, everybody tells us how healthy and sane we are; how"normal" we are.
      We ourselves are convinced that our bodies are in good shape, and that our minds are
      sound.
      iiiiriiiis: I'm following...
      frogmobile: Me too.
      panta98: The above is the case of billions; only a few, in fact, an infinitesimal number of
      earth inhabitants escape the onslaught of this alienation process, of the labour process; that
      is, they are only partially destroyed, they still possess emancipatory powers.
      panta98: Of course, in millions, you find sparks, flashes, shadows of emancipatory "fata
      morgana."
      panta98: But, they are so destroyed, that "individually, they are impotent; they become
      "flashes" of hope, they were reduced to "spare-parts" of a cosmic-ontic process. These are
      the really existent "nice people" all over the planet, also on Internet.
      panta98: For something to come into being, to live, to be alive, certain conditions, factors,
      must be existent, it makes the thing or person probable, possible. If they are not existent,
      then it or (s)he is impossible.
      panta98: In the case of "humans", s(he) cannot be "conscientized" anymore, cannot
      emancipate her/himself, cannot be emancipated.
      panta98: This is a sad, a tragic fact; but it's a reality that stares us directly in the face -- a
      result of millennia of DDDD. Not that we are fascists saying this, au contraire, they are the
      products of fascist tyranny.
      panta98: It would be a total waste of time to educate, recruit "zombies", the end products
      of labour alienation, of the global labour system; in fact, we could take a try, thousands of
      Christians and Marxists did, and had experienced the fun to be nailed on a cross, or get an
      axe into their brains, by the very ones whom we want to educate.
      panta98: Now let us talk about the emancipators, the few, who are still in orbit, are still
      trying to be cosmic and ontic, to transcend historically, to emancipate themselves.
      panta98: First, let me hear your views concerning my elaborations, then we could continue.

      panta98: I'm listening. .... any remarks about the aforesaid, please.
      frogmobile: So far so good
      iiiiriiiis: Now, which are the conditions or factors you talked about, Franz? Or is this a estas
      alturas a question which isn't either a valid question - in our current context?
      iiiiriiiis: I'm asking because also the term "Possibility" raised, and I'm not sure in which
      direction you would like to go now.
      panta98: Iris, please give me some factors, you deem important.
      panta98: An important factor is consistancy in what you do or say!
      iiiiriiiis: Maybe that in the first place there "is" and "exists" "something" beyond the realm of
      the labour process? iiiiriiiis: Ok, I asked the question in another context... I was reading
      back... - let's go ahead.
      panta98: Then, another is Carl's favourite, responsibility.
      panta98: Where on earth, do we still find that?
      iiiiriiiis: In Us I think, Franz.
      panta98: I'm counting down the factors already, of a not "totally" destroyed
      natural-cosmic being and existence, Iris.
      frogmobile: People are embroiled in their daily "economic" activities also there is the "false
      consciousness" effect.
      panta98: Who does and thinks his/her total life, in accordance with what he/she does in a
      parallel world of "emancipation"?
      iiiiriiiis: Yes, I noted it, Franz - please forget about the way I put the question.
      panta98: Is that what we do here totally divorced from our real life tomorrow, at work,
      with the family, in the street?
      panta98: Is this not perhaps a "hobby", something extra, special, but not directly connected
      to real life, where one must work, earn his daily bread.
      panta98: If this is the case, then we have flashes of emancipation, but not real constant
      natural action and social thinking. Not Emancipation!
      panta98: Now, I'm interested in your views.
      iiiiriiiis: That is precisely what I indicated in my letter to the crew, at least, those are our
      exeriences. To note, that accordingly to the ruling logics, "thinking, thought" and "acts,
      doing" was non-related...
      panta98: This part of the text, of the chat that is deliberately inter-twined, is socialized.
      panta98: I'm trying to indicate the complication, the circumference of What Is To Be
      Done!
      iiiiriiiis: We experienced some "clase magistral-fans", to put it kindly. As you
      mentioned before: No relation whatsoever 'between' the discussions and "real life".
      panta98: We do not select a day, some hours, to go and do social work.
      frogmobile: continue
      panta98: And, logically, we'll get into trouble in real life, when we practice
      emancipatory action.
      panta98: Coming back to what Khalid once stressed: Where is the seriousness, the
      consistency, the militancy in daily Praxis?
      panta98: What Is daily Praxis? In contradictinction to what everybody does out there,
      including work and leisure.
      frogmobile: I think because Man transcends nature.
      frogmobile: we lost our original home "nature" - and will never be able to return to it nor
      can we ever become an "animal" or whatever we were before, again.
      panta98: There exists no formal logics, dualism, between "Work" and "Emancipatory
      Action".
      iiiiriiiis: In the final analysis, what we are discussing about, is the famous "divide et impera"-
      Ideology and Practise. No seriousness, consistency, nowhere. Exactly:
      dualistic either-or relation.
      panta98: Yes, part of you, Khalid, not the total you, is materially de-naturalized.
      ScnWrt: Hi, folks
      iiiiriiiis: Glad you're back again, Carl.
      panta98: If everything was de-materialized, de-naturalized, then you would be one of the 6
      billion"zombies" already.
      frogmobile: True Franz, and the only other alternative left with us is to "emerge" from our
      natural state and "create" a new home, a "home" that would transcend our previous
      instincts into becoming into a truly "human" ourselves.
      panta98: And you won't be here, here in Cyberspace with us!
      panta98: You are not yet totally de-naturalized, not totally dissocialized.
      panta98: However, the deteriorating process, like the lucha, continues, unless ....
      panta98: And that's what I'm talking about. ....
      frogmobile: The fact of the matter is when we were born we were thrown out of situation
      that was definite and sure into one of great uncertainty, insecurity, dependent and tied to
      others for our emotional, physical and mental survival
      ScnWrt: I'm reading the transcript that I saved so far.
      panta98: We were born, already partially cloned, clowns, from partially denaturalized
      bodies, our own poor mothers, may mine rest in peace. ....
      ScnWrt: We create our own dependency and insecurity.
      panta98: No wonder that we have such problems with our parents. ...
      ScnWrt: Mine, too, Franz.
      panta98: They are the first ones to identify, to identify our womb. ...
      frogmobile: We as part of the life process have become forever linked to others for our
      daily "sustenance," without which we will not survive from a baby to an adult despite the
      indoctrination.
      panta98: And they were not exactly emancipators. ...
      panta98: And they dissocialized us heavily in the cradle already.
      ScnWrt: We were taught that Bullscheisse.
      panta98: I know that you love your moms, no problem, truth is truth. I love my Mom, but
      I love the Truth more.
      panta98: The problem is that late, very late, nearly too late, we discover what is what.
      ScnWrt: Now we have to be our own mothers.
      frogmobile: Each step of life can be also very frightening at times. Franz forget what they
      the parents have done but it "is" and "was" US that was left to define for
      ourselfves what we think we are.
      panta98: It's at this late hour, at the eleventh hour, that we must learn new, original actions.
      ...
      panta98: That's the problem. ...
      frogmobile: The paradox of our existence is we were 'thrown or booted out of "nature",
      and into a situation which is indefinite and unsure.
      panta98: There exists no real material base, nothing natural out there, to perform
      emancipatory action. ...
      ScnWrt: No problem, Franz. The human organism is quite flexible.
      panta98: At least not on the face value, not in this "material world" of Madonna.
      frogmobile: Thus that's the reason why we are discussing What is emancipation here?
      panta98: But we are a reflection, a microcosm of "Mother Nature", who also is not totally
      destroyed. ...
      ScnWrt: We'll create the new material base.
      ScnWrt: Agreed, Franz.
      frogmobile: Yes, agreed Franz.
      panta98: If this were the case, we could not even try, talk about emancipatory action.
      panta98: We would have no cosmic base, no substratum, to operate. ....
      ScnWrt: We need to rediscover Mother Nature.
      iiiiriiiis: That is... We are Nature, in other terms: Cosmos...
      ScnWrt: Agreed, Iris.
      panta98: The trouble is to sense real, true, still living nature.
      frogmobile: Therefore interestly "our" existence have become one of a "sea of
      contradictions" in a never ending search for "unity" with "nature"; also within
      ourselves and with other fellow human beings.
      panta98: To recuperate our sense perception, to get rid of its merchandise flavour.
      ScnWrt: A good place to discover Mother Nature may be a space community.
      panta98: You don't need to go back to Nature, ....
      panta98: Nothing about unity and harmony with Nature.
      panta98: That's Flower Power ideology!
      panta98: You are Nature, what you are, you need not join.
      ScnWrt: We never go back. We make new contacts.
      panta98: Unless you are pure spirit, a holy zombie.
      frogmobile: This situation determines all of our reason, passions, needs, affects,
      knowledge, strengths, character, emotions and anxieties.
      panta98: We "start", we "begin" what we still are, real, true Nature.
      frogmobile: What's "Flower Power ideology."
      frogmobile: I am not saying that we will ever go back?
      panta98: The flower power of the sixties, the hippy ideology.
      frogmobile: Go back to what I refer as "nature" Franz.
      panta98: Or the Afro-American Back To Africa, to Liberia Dream!
      ScnWrt: Marcus Garvey-didn't work out.
      panta98: Or Rousseau's "noble savage's" dreams, euphoria, delirium.
      panta98: Well, that's the natural part. Most interesting is the intellectual part.
      panta98: What about Emancipatory Thinking?
      iiiiriiiis: I think Franz is trying to emphazise, that "searching" for "nature" is just not
      "necessary", because as we state - methodologically and epistemologically: We are, We are
      Cosmos - Nature.
      panta98: Which ghosts must first disappear from our mind, before we can even begin
      thinking?
      panta98: Please give me some ideas, examples?
      frogmobile: I don't know what Franz is trying to relate here but certainly we are driving in a
      different road.
      panta98: What are the sine qua non, mental conditions, to launch emancipatory
      thought?
      ScnWrt: Wishful thinking is a ghost.
      panta98: Yep! Carl. D'accord!
      panta98: Iris, some basic conditions?
      iiiiriiiis: Cosmos.
      frogmobile: What is emancipatory thought.....to put it simple its then just another form of
      ideology.
      iiiiriiiis: Being Nature.
      panta98: Khalid, somethings which we must first overcome. In one of them you were a
      specialist. I taught you!
      ScnWrt: Franz, start Emancipatopry process by engaging in creative activity, e.g., art,
      music, writing.
      frogmobile: Guys its 7.30, I have to go.
      iiiiriiiis: The indeterminated, and "determination" of "thinking"..
      panta98: Carl, in order to obatin emancipation one must get rid of all ghosts, spirits,
      zombies!
      ScnWrt: Agreed, Franz.
      iiiiriiiis: Ok, Khalid, take care, see you next Tuesday.
      ScnWrt: Sorry that you gotta leave, man.
      frogmobile: Goodnight.
      ScnWrt: Gute nacht, Khalid.
      iiiiriiiis: Franz, please any comment to what I stated?
      panta98: He/She/It must clear his/her/its mind, first, from all Western, Christian,
      "Civilized", religious Ghosts.
      ScnWrt: Saving transcript.
      iiiiriiiis: Ok, thanks, Franz.
      panta98: With these ghosts Labour, Capital started Mind control in Europe and spread it
      across the globe.
      panta98: Without the above, well done in feudalist Europe, capitalism would have been
      impossible to operate. iiiiriiiis: Obviously, I still do have difficulties to identify- on which
      degree we are discussing - sorry Franz and Carl.
      ScnWrt: Today, a spectre is haunting the globe-It's called Pandemonium.
      panta98: Iris, I'm simply saying: Condition No. 1. Any emancipator should get his mind
      straight concerning any religious, spiritual and ghost forms of thought-destruction.
      panta98: A believer believes, cannot think.
      panta98: A thinker thinks, does not believe.
      panta98: The two are formal-logical opposites which totally exclude each other.
      iiiiriiiis: Yes, thank you, got it, Franz, proceed - I just was referring to my comment.
      panta98: In this way, I apply formal-logics to its fullest, at its best!
      ScnWrt: A thinker takes responsibility for his/her actions.
      iiiiriiiis: That's the point, Carl: for his ACTIONS.
      panta98: Carl, agreed. To that aspect we'll come later.
      panta98: Please remind me.
      ScnWrt: OK, proceed.
      iiiiriiiis: I'm following.
      panta98: Really, if one does not get rid of the labour view of God, forget about
      emancipation, about thinking.
      panta98: Hence, Rule 1, find out on Internet if someone believes, believes in some religious
      or spiritual phantasm.
      panta98: If so, forget the whole story!
      panta98: Don't waste precious emancipatory "time".
      panta98: Condition No. 2.
      iiiiriiiis: D'accord, Franz.
      panta98: Find out, who still has "hopes" for capitalism, for the New World Order, for the
      World System, ....
      iiiiriiiis: If so...forget it...
      panta98: Who believes in Work, Labour, in Evolution, in Improvement of the System, in
      Change Only From Within, then ...
      iiiiriiiis: Let him/her enjoy it...
      panta98: Rule 2, don't waste more time.
      panta98: Who wants to redistribute Wealth, Do something For the Poor, Recruit Anybody
      For The Salvation Army,
      panta98: forget your patience and politeness, as Bill uses to say!
      iiiiriiiis: and see above...
      ScnWrt: That depends, Some may have the potential to change.
      panta98: In other words, discover who is a Reformer, a Reconciliator, then you'll know
      that not even emancipatory ashes are left.
      ScnWrt: Emancipation is a process.
      panta98: Our emancipatoy Action (Work) is getting less, more easy. ... Do you note it.
      ScnWrt: Franz, unless they are willing to change.
      panta98: We're gaining so much needed time. .....
      panta98: The will is strong but the consumption pecuniary flesh is weak, Carl.
      ScnWrt: D'accord, Franz. But it can be strengthened.
      panta98: A strong will must be based on firm emancipatory action, guided by
      intellectual clarity.
      panta98: If not, God will cherish, will come to be.
      ScnWrt: Agreed, Franz. Review Assagioli's concept of the will.
      panta98: As long as there still remains something left like Real Nature - True Society, that
      half-man, half-emancipator, who we are and how we exist.
      ScnWrt: And why we exist.
      panta98: I don't doubt that many of us live on this planet. But how should we
      differentiate the sheep from the wolves?
      panta98: I began explaining above already; The Rules, The Conditions.
      panta98: So many wolves in sheep clothing, so few sheep in wolf's clothing!
      panta98: Iris, Khalid, still around, chasing wolves,
      panta98: Yes, we've to come to an agreement with Allah!
      ScnWrt: Lots of sheep in wolves clothing-afraid of risk, responsibility and commitment.
      panta98: Then we've to get things straight with Labour.
      panta98: Rule 3, Condition 3.
      panta98: It's not all gold that glitters.
      panta98: "It's not all human that thinks on two legs."*
      panta98: There we really have a problem. Ideology, Culture, Humanitarianism,
      Humanism have all taken us on a wild-goose chase, for a ride.
      panta98: How do we identify a Human Being?
      panta98: Are there really 6 000 000 000 human beings on this planet.
      panta98: A delicate issue, I admit.
      panta98: But this really interests us.
      panta98: And we cannot continue with notions born across millennia of DDDD and then
      still think about Emancipation, which was never ever a part of DDDD, and the "human
      beings" which it produced.
      panta98: Yes, who does not know what a "human being" is, and repeats the "human being"
      ideology sown across millennia, surely will have a grievous problem with Emancipation.
      panta98: This is the hardest bone for us to chew. Your comments, please!
      panta98: By the way, I forgot to say, Bye!to Khalid.
      panta98: Yes, Iris &Carl, any comments?
      iiiiriiiis: Carl, please....
      panta98: Are you so schocked?
      panta98: Emancipation is a shocking endeavour!
      panta98: We have to check ideology, mind and thought control in it's very essence.
      iiiiriiiis: That is: "human being" is determined by a certain relation to nature...
      ScnWrt: Hi
      panta98: The problem is that the slave-drivers, the Caesars, the Conquistadores, the Nazis,
      the Fascists, those Americans who dropped the bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki, who
      nearly rotted out the Vietcong, they were very clear what's a "human being".
      panta98: And what's not one!
      panta98: They, who taught us so thoroughly what's a "human being", are now the
      paradigms, the examples, of how we should differentiate the "human being".
      panta98: If this is not done and thought, we'll fall back on the same level as the Slave
      Emancipation, the Class Struggle, the Women's Lib, etc. This is the very reason, why
      nobody ever emancipated anybody.
      panta98: Simply because nobody ever wanted to emancipate itself, did not know what to
      emancipate, namely. iiiiriiiis: Yes, for example Aristoteles which you implicitely mentioned,
      was quite clear on who`s "human" or not...
      panta98: Nature a n d Society, real Hisory, Historians.
      panta98: And not a perverse, unilateral Human Being.
      iiiiriiiis: ..For him, those performing physical labour, were "speaking tools"...
      iiiiriiiis: Is Carl still around, Franz?
      panta98: A true emancipator does not destroy his material self, Nature, with Physical
      Labour.
      ScnWrt: Listening.
      iiiiriiiis: ok, Carl.
      panta98: A real emancipator does not destroy Society, by dividing it into classes, against
      Nature, and then nurture "Class Struggle" and "Accumulation of Capital",
      ScnWrt: A human being-emancipator.
      panta98: Within these limits, you have Exterminators, Destructors, Killers, Assassins and
      their Victims, but not Emancipators or Historians, no relations Nature a n d Society AND
      History.
      panta98: Who is a Killer cannot be emancipated, and who is already killed by a Killer,
      cannot be emancipated either.
      iiiiriiiis: That is in other words: does not perceive a dualistic "Inner-" versus "Outer-"World,
      i.e. "Nature" at one, "Society" at the other side, and furthermore does not split him/herself
      in "I" (Thinking) and "my body"... (Acting)
      ScnWrt: There were some emancipators, e.g., Tesla and Reich.
      panta98: Another macabre, cruel, brutal truth and reality.
      panta98: And, I, so loving, lovely and tender must state it -- it nearly breaks my heart!
      ScnWrt: Iris, d'accord! The One=Emancipation.
      panta98: Yes, they exactly related in conformity with Nature and Society, that's why they
      made authentic, real, original discoveries.
      iiiiriiiis: Not only, Carl - it's one aspect... I just wanted to underline, how strictly the
      "either-or" principle is applied in all aspects...
      panta98: So, Carl, you can imagine what the Illuminati "discovers" and "develop"
      technologically today.
      panta98: The total domination and destruction of Nature.
      panta98: At least, as far as earthly nature is concerned.
      ScnWrt: Except, today, the Illuminati is split.
      ScnWrt: One 1/2 sees the self-destruct.
      panta98: They all talk about "humanity", "rights" and "peace", and they damn well know
      that the planet is doomed.
      ScnWrt: Except the planet isn't doomed thanks to the resistors.
      panta98: In other words, that homo sapiens is doomed to a horrible, terrible death -- will
      roast, suffocate, starve, have million sicknesses at a time, will disintegrate radio-actively.
      ....
      ScnWrt: Not with the resistors out there.
      panta98: If nobody knows it, I know that this thing is dying away, is already in coma. ...
      ScnWrt: Not entiely, Franz. Wait and see...
      panta98: The species, materially and intellectually, is rotting away, that's why cloning,
      bio-genetics, engineering, etc.
      ScnWrt: Not entirely.
      panta98: Very soon, billions will have to believe in this, and are they not
      "human beings" ...
      iiiiriiiis: In which sense do you mean "not entirely", Carl?
      ScnWrt: Cloning, bioenginering, etc. is being done due to the fear of the human
      potential.
      ScnWrt: Iris, the resistors - remarkable people everywhere.
      panta98: Who rules this world, who makes business, makes money profits, fame, power,
      did they ever care about a "human being"? Did they ever consider billions of creatures as
      "human beings"/ well, if a human being is to betreated as they did, then a human being is
      not worth a farthing, is something not worth bothering about, less so, emancipate.
      iiiiriiiis: They didn't, Franz, they didn't care.
      panta98: Carl, I agree with you. It's you, you're talking about, about us, but,
      unfortunately, believe it or not, we're not "human beings".
      ScnWrt: Franz, their rule will not last.
      iiiiriiiis: we're the 'only' lost....
      panta98: Carl, I agree with you. It's you, you about whom we're talking, about us, but,
      unfortunately, believe it or not, we're not "human beings". Here, I've even to believe, to
      make this clear.
      ScnWrt: Agreed.
      panta98: The so-called "human being" is a genus, is generic, is not an individual
      existence. Only Killers, Assasins, Power-Mongers, Blood-Suckers, are appearances of the
      genus, the species "Human Being".
      ScnWrt: Do you read my writing?
      panta98: This is reality, Labour History proves it all over, everywhere, at all times.
      panta98: Who has still eyes can see it!
      iiiiriiiis: Yes, Carl, I read you.
      ScnWrt: Thanks
      panta98: Yes, Carl.
      panta98: I'm a human being, is a nonsensical statement.
      ScnWrt: However, we are on the road to change.
      panta98: It's like saying, I'm an animal.
      panta98: Yes, Carl. We're on the road to change.
      iiiiriiiis: WE.
      panta98: Could you give us some examples, please, Carl.
      panta98: "We" is another genius, another generic name, it has very little to do with the
      genius homo, homo spiens.
      ScnWrt: Not on the Road to Mandalay.
      panta98: A "We" by definition is a loving We, is an emancipator.
      iiiiriiiis: It's a differentation...
      panta98: The human beings are egoistic, are isolated "I"'s, a concoction thrown
      together, who live like wolves together with sheep.
      ScnWrt: Yep, Franz. Not the We by Zemiatin, which predated Orwell's 1984.
      panta98: Exactly, Carl.
      ScnWrt: Stuck in their egos.
      panta98: Just look how You and I, without ever having met in real everyday life, how We
      are "we-ing" daily!
      panta98: That's a genius, a species apart!
      panta98: How we behave, how we act, how we assist others, contrast this to everyday life
      outside there.
      panta98: No wonder that the wolves fear contradictions, relations!
      ScnWrt: D'accord, Franz.
      panta98: We have a tough job to unite, to differentiate, to triversify us, to emancipate
      ourselves.
      panta98: If we're "lucky", and we succeed, perhaps, then, we could devote our time and
      energy to global, galactic emancipation.
      iiiiriiiis: Yes, that's why some perceive us as being sort of a sect..., because they
      themselves cannot relate, because they "act" (practise) and "think"(ideologize) differently....

      panta98: I've nothing against such an endeavour, but, poor me, I'm zillions of
      light-years from home.
      iiiiriiiis: ...but it's not a question of quantity, Franz
      panta98: Emancipation is a quantitative matter, but not ONLY ....
      ScnWrt: Yep. I also have about 25 intruders scanning my PC, and after this chat, I get
      Agnitum and my ISP get after their arses.
      panta98: It's also a quantitative a n d qualitative issue, but, not ONLY. ....
      iiiiriiiis: Yes, Franz, agreed.
      panta98: It's also a Quantitative a n d Qualitative AND Quantumative Issue, but, Not
      ONLY, .... MUCH MORE.
      panta98: This our Logics teach Us!
      ScnWrt: It's also intuitive.
      panta98: True, Carl.
      panta98: But, that's a "quality", which very few still possess on earth, certainly the "human
      beings" NOT.
      ScnWrt: It's transcending--exceeding our potential.
      panta98: That what they call "intuition", that's not the real thing. ....
      ScnWrt: exceeding
      panta98: Yes, that's it, and not that why Jung call's "intuition".
      iiiiriiiis: ...after all, remember..
      panta98: Also not what he salls, thinking, sense, etc.
      iiiiriiiis: ...wanted to indicate exactly what you said...
      ScnWrt: Jung's only contribution is that he advocated that lay people can be their own
      therapists.
      panta98: These "qualities" he got from the religious lessons of his "mom".
      ScnWrt: Yep
      panta98: She was in this sense very "intuitive", giving "tuition" to her son.
      panta98: Correct, Carl.
      ScnWrt: Also, Freud advocated mistrust of the patient. One downside of Freudian therapy
      is the patient had to spend...
      panta98: I am only me, saying the things how I dearly know and think them.
      ScnWrt: Too much time fighting for credibility.
      panta98: I needn't be 'right"; oh, how I wish, I was "wrong". At any event, I respect
      anybody's views about her/himself in paticular, and about "human beings" in general.
      Everybody must solve the problem of her/his essence and existence all by her/himself.
      Similarly, I expect respect for my very serious viewpoints.
      panta98: To err is "human", if this should be so, I would be happier, and also mankind, and
      all human beings.
      ScnWrt: But you're right.
      panta98: The only problem these human beings have proven me "right' everyday, they get
      me sick!
      ScnWrt: D'accord, Franz.
      panta98: OK, Carl, thanks to be you, and that you were there, to enjoy the evening with
      us.
      ScnWrt: Don't get upset, Franz.
      panta98: Good Night! Gute Nacht!!!
      panta98: See, you! Bye!
      ScnWrt: Gute Nacht, Franz and Iris.


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