Carl (Teaneck, USA)
Stella (Mainz, Germany)
Frances (Ingolstadt, Germany)
Matt (Philadelphia, USA)
Jutta (Merida, Venezuela)
Franz (Merida, Venezuela)
OBJECTIVES, SUBJECTIVES AND TRANSJECTIVES I
WHAT IS BEAUTY? WHAT IS ESTHETIC?
17th April, 2001
SLIGHTLY EDITED, ORIGINAL VERSION
( Please take
the remaining typographic errors as Pandemonium Greetings;
it absorbs too much valuable "time" to correct them all! Chats, by their
very nature, are not perfect scientific treatises.)
http://franzjutta.org franzjutta@cantv.net http://www.franzjutta.com
To read previous Chats:
http://www.oocities.org/Athens/Academy/8545/chats.html
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SAYING HI!
You have just entered room "panta98
Chat76."
naranjahit:Hi,
all.
GermanicWarlord
has entered the room.
GermanicWarlord:Hello,
my friends.
juttaschmi has entered the room.
panta98:Hi!
All!
panta98:We
are just waiting on Carl & Juergen!
CarlzimC
has entered the room.
panta98: Hi!
Carl.
CarlzimC:
Hi, folks.
juttaschmi:Hi
Carl. Hi Stella, Hi all. Where is Jürgen?
naranjahit:
Hi,
All!
juttaschmi:Hi
Stella, nice to see you.
panta98:Still
waiting for Juergen. Is he "iroll245" or "Iroll245" or "lroll245"?
juttaschmi:Franz,
shall we wait for Jürgen, or do you want to proceed with the introduction?
- I think he is "Iroll245">
panta98: Better
begin!
naranjahit:
Yes
for a moment Jutta. I am totally tired from Uni and work, but I will stay
for an hour.
CarlzimC:Iroll245
works in my AOL.
CarlzimC:Please
begin, Franz.
THE RAINBOWAPPEARS
naranjahit:Yes,
proceed Franz, please.
panta98:Let
us continue the salient topics which we touched last Tuesday. Today, I
will just give a very piquant introduction. I want to visualize our objective,
Beauty, our Esthetics. So "beauties", there we go. .....
panta98:In
our unilateral world of labour, everybody has a goal, an objective, to
make money, profits. We also have cosmic objectives, but much more, ontic
subjectives, and transhistoric transjectives.
juttaschmi:Carry
on, Franz.
panta98:So,
folks, what is our Objective?
juttaschmi:Do,
think and excel all of, by and for ourselves, Franz
panta98:Fine,
Jutta: DO!
naranjahit:
Why
"much more" Franz?
panta98:And
DO the things in a beautiful relation!
juttaschmi:
I´m
doing my best, ;-)
panta98:Some
things which we discussed, for example, the "racist" asseverations of Aristotle,
Voltaire, Montesquieu, Hegel and Marx were profoundly grotesque indeed;
others, for example, our comments about the scientific essence of the "human
being", were lividly burlesque in their seemingly everyday Rembrandtesque
appearance forms.
panta98:Today,
however, I would like to highlight exactly the very opposite, to spotlight
our notions of a different world, of other emancipatory spheres. It is
fundamental to understand this globalized monstrosity in which we live,
nevertheless, we also have to spotlight our arduous, serpentine road, our
beauty towards historic excellence.
juttaschmi:Each
and every scientific-philosophic asseveration has several levels, degrees
or "mensions".
CarlzimC:
I think beauty is trying to stop some people from killing each other worldwide.
panta98:Agreed,
Jutta.
CarlzimC:
Beauty is trying to prevent our computer desktop from being a doomtop.
juttaschmi:The
statements we have made about the "human being", for example, are statements
that reveal ideology on the one hand, and truth, on the other hand.
juttaschmi:
Nice
definition, Carl!
panta98: Yes,
Carl. Beautifully simple people "esthetically" kill each other, with "beam
weapons".
panta98:Let
us talk about more pleasant things -- about beautiful things, about us!
Also, this must be learnt, be expressed scientifically and philosophically,
without ideological, religious, emotional or ethical sadomasochism.
panta98:Tell
me something BEAUTIFUL, guys!
juttaschmi:The
ideology all across the ages was to make everyone believe they are human
beings, when, in historic fact, they were never treated as such.
GermanicWarlord:
Is
it possible to be perfect?
CarlzimC:Composing
and performing music = beauty.
juttaschmi:Perfect
with regard to what, Matt?
panta98:Perfectly
possible, as long as the perfection changes itself to other realities,
worlds and spheres.
CarlzimC:
Any creative activiy, e.g., art = beauty.
GermanicWarlord:
The
idea that we wish to make flesh?
juttaschmi:
Perfectlcy
possible and possibly perfect.
panta98:Excellent,
and the flesh that is being expressed intellectually.
CarlzimC:
How
do we make flesh, Matt?
GermanicWarlord:
Can
that flesh be perfect?
panta98: Yes,
by cloning, by nanotechnology!
juttaschmi:
Cloned
and modified half-men-half-machines!
panta98: Why
not? Why should only spirits be perfect?
GermanicWarlord:
No,
I'm talking about the flesh of our intellects.
CarlzimC:Limited
by individual concepts of "perfect".
juttaschmi:
Agreed,
Carl.
CarlzimC:
OK,
Matt.
GermanicWarlord:
Well,
can I examine ...
panta98:Well,
Matt, you are physically, cosmically, the flesh of your intellect: that's
your objective, your beauty!
CarlzimC:
Proceed,
Matt
GermanicWarlord:
Who
do you view as the perfect person? A person living, or dead.
panta98: Proceeding
.... About hating capitalism, abhorring imperialism, detesting communism,
loathing sadomasochism and bedevilling terrorism; about these, any "leftist",
uncritical "Tom, Dick or Harry" or any "rightist", critical "Jean, Jane
or Joan" could sing an eviternal "Swan's Song" from anywhere, at anytime.
panta98:
Neither living nor dead, Matt.
GermanicWarlord:
Specific
names.
panta98:Proceeding
.... Now, let the fatherland, the patria, illustrate to us what is gruesome,
systemic beauty at rest; what is frozen, morbid, moribund aesthetics. Many
a philosophic thinker tried very hard to spotlight beauty, but, in East
and West, North and South, labour --
panta98:...
slavery, feudalism and capitalism -- progressively darkened the esthetic
horizon, ushered in eternal "dark ages" of arrogance, ignorance, obscurantism
and bigotry. Hence, beauty, already nearly converted into merchandise,
fled this macabre scene, towards safer historic spheres.
GermanicWarlord:
I
look to Thomas Jefferson.
CarlzimC:
And
everything changes continuously (nothing is permanent).
juttaschmi:
---
beauty, truth, perfectness are all determined by the system for us.
CarlzimC:
What did Jefferson say?
panta98: Precisely
so, Jutta --- and we are going to determine our very own connotation!
GermanicWarlord:
He
said a lot.
CarlzimC:
An example, Matt?
GermanicWarlord:
Like
the tree of liberty must be refreshed with the blood of rebellion.
panta98: But,
our central topic today, is not President Wilberforce or Jefferson, it
is our beauty!
GermanicWarlord:
I
am trying to find beauty...
juttaschmi:
So,
if we determine beauty, truth and perfectness with regard to the affirmation
of the system, we have to state how beautiful, true and almost perfect
economic exploitation, political oppression, social discrimination and
human alienation are.
GermanicWarlord:
I
think Jefferson was the most "beautiful" man to have lived.
panta98: I
respect your view, Matt. We know enough about the Pentagon, White House
and NASA "beauty" -- today, we are talking about ourselves, not about a
"Brave New World", au contraire, about our Multiverse!
CarlzimC:
We also need to deal with dishonesty and manipulation.
panta98: Excellent,
Matt. Proceeding ... However, certainly, not in the way that it has been
done within the "fatherland", only "within the system", in formal-logical,
religious, metaphysical, ideological and utopian ways over the millennia.
juttaschmi:
Perfectly
agreed, Carl.
GermanicWarlord:
Ok..
i guess I have digressed.
panta98: Our
Science a n d Philosophy do not form an "Exodus" out of Moloch
to some"Promised Land", or some conspiratorial "Plan of Escape" from Berlin,
boarding a "Flying Saucer", and to zoom off to "Alice in Wonderland".
panta98:
Don't worry, Matt. just now we will come back to your topic, straight after
my brief introduction, and the short comments of all of you.
CarlzimC:
However, Franz, we are all exiles.
panta98: Beautiful
exiles, Carl.
juttaschmi:No,
definitely no Alice in Wonderland, Franz. - Please specify, Carl. In how
far are we all exiles?
panta98: Handsome
and footsome "aliens"!
CarlzimC:
Jutta, We have left the world of thinking imposed by others.
panta98: Also
our Beauty ... has nothing to do with a "bed of roses", with "Romeo and
Juliet", with the "world revolution", with "karma", "kamasutra", "nirvana"
or "tea ceremonies".
panta98:
Also, we are not interested in "A" terminology, such as "good", "true",
"beautiful","lovingly", etc. Remember their "Non-A" are "non-good" (bad),
"non-true" (false),"non-beautiful" (ugly), non-lovingly (hatefully), etc.
As we will see, this does not mean that brilliant labour artists and thinkers
did not reveal esthetic truths, did not experience fata morganas
from other spheres.
juttaschmi:
Truly
so, Carl. We are breaking through ideology, through mind-control.
CarlzimC:
What does our beauty relate to, Franz?
juttaschmi:
Our
beauty relates to our OWN doing, thinking and excelling, Carl.
panta98: Just
now, Carl. Happy to say, I'm on my way, to the ... land!
panta98:
However, we do not have the intention to develop newspeak, new words, to
coin new combinations of formal-logical letters of the alphabet; in any
case, words are just miserable slaves, speaking-tools, used to express
thinking and thought. We do not think in words, and words do not think
for us.
juttaschmi:
Agreed,
Franz.
panta98: Hence,
we use any word that we feel like, and we give it our very own connotation,
epistemology and logic. And these meanings anyone could find anywhere across
our web pages and in our very same chats.
juttaschmi:
Words
and language are but vehicles to express thoughts.
CarlzimC:
Derrida, Wittgenstein.
panta98: Yes,
Carl. As I said, Habermas too.
panta98:
Now we are getting serious ....
CarlzimC:
We also express ourselves in music, art, etc.
panta98: For
these very reasons, we have formulates our objectives as Beauty (cosmic),
our subjectives as Truth (cosmic a n d ontic),
and our transjectives (cosmic
a n d ontic AND
transcendental) as Love.
CarlzimC:
Beautiful. Franz.
panta98: Now,
let's see what Beauty is for Us!
juttaschmi:
Please
proceed, Franz.
panta98: So,
today we will chat about Transhistoric Beauty, Emancipatory Truth and Excelling
Love, about their variegated Levels, Degrees and Mensions. All of them
are Relations, Bezuege.
panta98:
Well, there we go: Beauty, our Beauty! Let us look at our essential objective,
at our cosmic perception, our conception of Beauty!
panta98:
In society, in a Vienna cafe, in the "Dorian Gray" airport discotheque,
in the Frankfurt Zoo, in Hyde Park, generally, listening to the modern
"hoi polloi", what do we hear about "beauty"?
juttaschmi:Truly
so: "beauty", "truth" or "love" are no isolated "entities", but are relations
with multiple aspects, multiple levels, degrees and mensions.
panta98:Well,
"beauty" like "love", is alcoholic, in delirium, erotic, is "in the
eyes of the beholder", is "skin-deep", "tickles the heart", and "confounds
the brain".
panta98:
Please explain, Jutta.
panta98:
Any comment, Carl?
panta98:
Matt, any idea?
panta98:
Stella, show us an inkling of your beauty!
GermanicWarlord:
Not
for now.
juttaschmi:
Beauty,
as a cosmic level, would be a sane, reciprocal relation between nature
and society, for instance.
naranjahit:
Franz,
I must say that I have some problem with these concepts, but proceed, I
have to think about it.
panta98: OK,
Matt, later ....
CarlzimC:
Beauty is subjective and individualized - Kurt Weill: seven beauties.
panta98: OK,
let me unfold the context a little more.
GermanicWarlord:
Ok.
juttaschmi:The
non-relation, the exploitative and destructive non-relation, society versus
nature, surely does not have anything to do with beauty in our sense.
panta98:Agreed,
Jutta. Proceeding ... As far as we are concerned, Emancipatory Esthetics,
aisthesis, Beauty, is cosmic, praxical, scientific, is simply natural,
sensorial perception. Nothing sexy, flexy or commercial about it.
juttaschmi:But
please proceed, Franz.
panta98:Although
a bourgeois romantic poet, John Keats, expressed this very simply in his
"Ode to a Nightingale" and the "Ode on a Grecian Urn". Communing historic
relations with Nature, the singing nightingale expresses the melodic symphony
of the Cosmos.
CarlzimC:Continue,
Franz.
GermanicWarlord:
I
know the "Ode on a Grecian Urn".
panta98:
He contrasted natural, social happiness with the dead weight of ahistoric,
patrian, labour grief, of misery and poverty. The song of the nightingale
artistically and dialogically expresses non-spatial, non-temporal, social,
historic life.
juttaschmi:
As
I said: Beauty would be a "sane" relation of society towards nature and
vice versa.
panta98: No
wonder that he wrote that a cosmic, natural "thing of beauty is a joy forever".
Nonetheless, before and after the "Industrial Revolution", the exploitative,
dominating, discriminating and alienating products of labour never ever
were a "joy forever".
juttaschmi:
Ditto
panta98: Matt,
... What is natural, what is Nature, is beautiful. However, the essential
questions remain: What is natural? What still is natural? Have we ever
experienced anything natural in this alienated labour world?
CarlzimC:
The natural = occult (hidden).
juttaschmi:
I´m
afraid not, Franz. Nature has been, from the point go, "vermenschlichte
Natur" - "humanized nature" - something Marx was very fond of, by the way!
panta98: Silence
.... mmmm ... Yes, Carl. Hidden, natural physics, physis!
Ether Physics! Of course, Labour is in History, but this is not the only
thing that is in History. In History exist Nature a n d
Society, but, among many other things, also Man, Maltreated Nature and
Perverted Society, in one word, Labour.
CarlzimC:Today,
natural exists only in the mind.
panta98: D'accord,
Jutta. Nature maltreated and Society perverted are and exist still as imminent,
essential and existential parts of Nature a n d Society, of History
itself, as Non-Relations, as Non-History.
juttaschmi:And
"humanized nature" is nothing else but "nature employed against nature
by man", as Hegel would say.
panta98:Yes,
Carl. As anamnesis, as memory, as historic fata morgana!
juttaschmi:
Agreed,
Carl.
panta98: D'accord,
Jutta.
panta98:
Proceeding ... Whether Cosmos or Non-Cosmos, whether Nature or Non-Nature,
whether "both of them together" or "none of them at all", etc., all these
relations compose only the minimum essence of our conception of Beauty.
panta98:
We have a very scientific, serious, stringent connotation of Beauty.
panta98:
We do not have a one-sided, unilateral notion of Beauty dualistically opposed
to Ugliness. In fact, the infinitesimal "starting point" of our connotation
of Beauty is that of Neither Labour Beauty Nor Labour Ugliness.
juttaschmi:
Please
explain further, Franz.
panta98: I'm
on my way, Jutta. ....
juttaschmi:
Ok.
panta98: So,
what concretely is Beauty? For sure, Cosmos, Nature, I, You, We, neither
"I" nor "You" nor "We", etc.
CarlzimC:
We have been led to believe that reality is that which is measured.
CarlzimC:
So beauty is mechanical.
panta98:Reality,
Carl? Perhaps, Irreality, Surreality!
juttaschmi:The
Einstein-approach, Carl: Time is that, what can be measured with a clock,
and space is, what can be measured with a measuring rod.
panta98: Of
course, we do not deny that a "rainbow", produced by acid rain, smoggy
clouds, smoky sun rays, seen by blindfolded Zombie eyes, is "beautiful".
Who still wants to write esthetic poetry about contemporary "rainbows"
should please do so.
CarlzimC:
Like the female android robot in the 1920's German movie: Metropolis.
panta98: But,
this is not the only beautiful thing in Heaven and on Earth. It is just
an infinitesimal, minimal labour glimpse of Non-Beauty!
panta98: Mmmm
... Android Beauty!
panta98:
The androids would be insulted with such designations of labour beauty!
CarlzimC:
See the movie on video. Predicted today's world.
juttaschmi:
Non-Beauty:
the "acid rainbow".
panta98: Yes,
but we are talking about other worlds, another world, historic worlds.
CarlzimC:
Such as, Franz?
panta98: Carl,
let us explain a little more. ... Furthermore ... We do not deny that caged
birds, flocked cows, flogged horses, domesticated dogs, cloned wheat, a
genetically engineered "Miss Universe" and a pale-faced "Michael Jackson"
could all be very "beautiful" things, and that some of them could even
sing like "nightingales", but, please, ....
panta98:
Also, we do not deny that an old crone, an old witch or a "Jewish nigger"
could be "ugly", but, please, where are your "beautiful" brains? Devoured
by "ugly", savage vultures?
panta98:
Any comments, folks?
naranjahit:
And
what is the difference between the "acid rainbow" and us? We can do, think,
excel; the rainbow can't. Is it this? Did I misunderstand something?
CarlzimC:
During the Stone Age in Saudi Arabia, "doctors" did brain surgery.
juttaschmi:
The
problem with beauty on a cosmic level is, that there has never been the
counterpart to "humanized nature" - that is, to "naturalized humans". The
non-relation society-nature has been a unilateral, exploitative
one towards nature.
panta98: Yes,
Stella. It's precisely that. Jutta, we only have labour animals, men,
but not historians, emancipators.
CarlzimC:
Brain surgery was self taught.
panta98: It
is like Adorno had asked: Who afterAuschwitz can still write a beautiful
poem?
juttaschmi:
Our
planting trees and flowers in San Onofre is beauty, Stella. A different
kind of beauty than the "acid rainbow".
panta98:Agreed,
Jutta. Very caring, lovingly we plant them. We can, and we are writing
zillions of poems right there, right hic et nunc.
panta98:Our
Beauty has nothing to do with Taj Mahal Beauty or Gas Chamber or Holocaust
Ugliness.
panta98:Let's
continue to see, what it is all about.
naranjahit:
Ok,
got the point.
juttaschmi:
Please
proceed, Franz.
panta98: Of
course, John Keats was not portraying emancipatory beauty. In his epoch,
in bourgeois spatial-temporal parameters, everything is still dark, the
"darkest before dawn", yet his transhistoric message to us is very clear:
panta98:
"Beauty
is truth, truth beauty, -- that is all ye know on earth, and all ye need
to know."
panta98:
Yes, John Keats, a cosmic "thing of beauty is a joy forever"; certainly,
"it can never pass into (labouring) nothingness". Into "labour pain"!
juttaschmi:What,
if "the truth" is exploitation, domination, discrimination and alienation,
Franz?
CarlzimC:
And the truth will make you free (St. Augustine).
juttaschmi:Then,
beauty, too, is exploitation, domination, etc. etc.
panta98: Again,
folks, what is Beauty for us?
panta98:
Yes, Carl & Jutta. Even Christ has said: Knoweth ye the Truth, and
the Truth shallt make thee free".
GermanicWarlord:
Do
you guys have any views on what the other dimensions may entail... I know
of length width and height being 3 and time being 4.... and I have heard
of there being up to 11 in studying quantum physics. In what other ways
can we preceive the world, if other ways are possible. BEAUTY IS THINKING.
CarlzimC:
A CIA guy said the truth will make you a pain in the a--.
juttaschmi:
Beauty,
for us, has to do with a cosmic-ontic relation, that is NOT exploitative,
oppressive, discriminating and alienating, Franz.
panta98: Matt,
just scrutinize our web sites:
http://www.oocities.org/athens/Academy/8545/load.html
http://www.homestead.com/pandemonium2/
Beauty is Acting, Truth is Thinking,
Love is Excelling!
CarlzimC:
Matt and Stella, please comment.
GermanicWarlord:
Beauty
is the relationship we have with our selves... there may be endless forms
of beauty.
panta98: I
agree, Matt!
juttaschmi:
(The
guy was "right", Carl. ;-)
)
panta98: Beauty
is Concrete; Thinking is Abstract, Love is Transhistoric.
CarlzimC:
Agreed, Matt.
panta98: That's
Love, my dear Matt!
GermanicWarlord:
But
this is a very difficult subject.
CarlzimC:
Beauty continuously changes.
panta98: Well,
we are difficult, complex, different and variegated. With what
we are dealing here "is a very
difficult object"; everything concerning us is
extremely complex, transcendental.
GermanicWarlord:
Beauty
is neither created nor destroyed?
panta98: Proceeding
... Our questioning answer: It's the stringent study, the active investigation,
the praxical analysis of Cosmos, of Nature, of our corporeal body; affirming
and identifying its esthetic activities and objectives.
CarlzimC:
Agreed, Matt. It changes.
GermanicWarlord:
Yes.
panta98: In
nuce, among other component entities, Esthetics is the Study of Cosmic,
of Natural Beauty.
panta98:
Even more concretely, what is Beauty?
panta98:
Logically, it is that which naturally delights all the senses, is physical
loveliness, is that relation which exalts us as a healthy, natural body
and a sane, social mind, striving towards emancipatory elegance and historic
excellence.
panta98:
Any addition, subtraction or multiplication?
CarlzimC:
Beauty = self-realization, actualization and transcendence.
GermanicWarlord:
You
are the master... continue!
CarlzimC:
Be more than you could be.
panta98: Brilliant,
Excellent, Carl.
panta98:
Yes, Matt ... I don't make jokes, Carl neither!
juttaschmi:
Something
almost "impossible" nowadays, Franz! Where is there anything to be found,
that NATURALLY delights all the senses?! Let alone physical loveliness,
etc. - At this stage of the labour process, there is not the tiniest sign
of beauty in this sense anymore.
CarlzimC:
Agreed, Franz
juttaschmi:
Carl,
agreed to you definition of beauty, too.
CarlzimC:
Thanks, Jutta
panta98:
Did anybody of you truly caress your beautyheart -- well, well, much beauty
still left on Mother Earth!
GermanicWarlord:
I
try.
CarlzimC:
Please expand, Matt
panta98: But,
no trial and error, Matt.
panta98:
It could be mortal, fatal, lethal.
GermanicWarlord:
This
is what I must do. I must take what is dear to me. And I must surround
myself with them, like the species that have adapted to fit their environment.
And I will evolve. For it is the natural way of things. To evolve. Not
to decay. I have decayed. Now I must evolve. My power is beyond your understanding,
but it is full of sound and fury signifying nothing.
juttaschmi:
Consider
the "human" body for a moment: contaminated with chemicals, hormones, prozac,
etc. pp. What natural thing is there left to caress?!
panta98: What
about moving from evolve to revolve, to transvolve, Matt? Jutta,
there are still a very few exiles,
lone rangers, "locos", some "aliens", roaming around on this planet. "Look
and ye shall find!"
panta98:
Matt. From Evolution, to Revolution, to Emancipation?
GermanicWarlord:
Well,
everything keeps moving along. So I must also.
panta98: Would
that not be a beauty?
juttaschmi:
Consider
the many bodies gasping for oxygen in the big cities, pale, exhausted,
stressed. Is that beauty?
panta98: Yeah!
Bravo! Matt. Jutta, certainly not. That's why we have to portray, to illustrate
our Emancipatory Beauty!
GermanicWarlord:
In
the broader picture I mean. Like when our sun becomes a red giant. Will
it all end?
CarlzimC:
Agreed, Matt. I don't think you've decayed
panta98: Beautifully
suffocated, Jutta. Matt: when the "sun
becomes a red giant",
that would be cosmic fire-works,
a magnanimous Beauty! We are children of the Sun, cosmic star dust!
GermanicWarlord:
I
have, In the past 2 weeks. I have given in to temptations.
GermanicWarlord:
And
I must change. So there is the beauty I want to find in myself. I have
to stay true to myself.
panta98: Matt,
did you copy Jesus Superstar, or the Temptation of Christ, with Mary Magdalena?
GermanicWarlord:
I
never heard of them.
panta98: I
know it is Easter, but you don't need to resurrect!
CarlzimC:
Everyone gives in to temptations at some time or another.
GermanicWarlord:
Yea.
panta98: Yes,
beauty tempts me in the wilderness of labour!
juttaschmi:
Temptation
and Armageddon - two sides of the same thing!
CarlzimC:
Agreed, Jutta.
GermanicWarlord:
The
final battle will be beautiful.
panta98: Proceeding
... In everyday life, Beauty may include some of the following, but not
necessarily so: the beautiful and the ugly, the slime and the sublime,
the banausic and the elegant; good taste, criticism, fine art, contemplation,
sensuous enjoyment, carnal delicacies, goodies and nighties of the market,
charisma and charm.
CarlzimC:
What will be the final battle, Matt?
panta98: But,
Folks. How do we enjoy beauty? For us, what is an esthetic experience?
GermanicWarlord:
The
Armageddon, as Franz said.
panta98: Between
Beauty and the Beast, Matt!
CarlzimC:
Franz, we enjoy beauty by appreciating ourselves and contributing to others.
CarlzimC:
Amageddon is happening now.
panta98: Beautiful,
Carl!
GermanicWarlord:
Yes,
or the pen and the sword, or the mind and the body, or humanity and nature.
juttaschmi:
An
esthetic experience is, if Iris talks to my hisbicus plant and complains
to it, that it is not flowering, and one week later, it is in full blossom.
panta98: Or
From Pontius to Pilate, Matt.
juttaschmi:
That
is what I call an aesthetic life experience!
panta98: Agreed,
Jutta.
naranjahit:
I
thought about Franz, talking to the our turtle-doves.
panta98: Stella,
or even Franz of Assisi! Imagine, we talking about Beauty today, that's
beautiful!
panta98:
Yes, Stella, we coo and woo today!
CarlzimC:
Pontius was the wrong guy in the wrong place at the wrong time.
juttaschmi:
Carl,
agreed on your comment of enjoying beauty by appreciating ourselves and
contributing to others.
panta98: Which
life experiences are definitely esthetic?
juttaschmi:
Kant:
Das
moralische Gesetz in mir und der bestirnte Himmel über mir!
panta98: Please
..... translate ....
juttaschmi:
(The
ethic law that I carry in myself and the sky full of stars above my head.)
CarlzimC:
Pontius was a mediocrity who couldn't handle Mideast politics. Neither
can I. Impossible for outsiders
panta98: Well,
we could only mention some which certainly are not beautiful; the fundamental
pillars of Labour, the infernal four D's: ...
panta98:Deprivation
(economic exploitation); Domination (political repression, the State);
Discrimination (social prejudice, racism); Dehumanization (alienation).
juttaschmi:
Excellent
comment, Carl.
panta98: You
now tell me which ones are esthetic, are esthetic experiences!
CarlzimC:
Thanks, Jutta.
juttaschmi:
The
esthetic experiences would be just the other way round, for a "beginning":
non-deprivation, non-domination, non-discrimination, etc.
CarlzimC:
This chat is an esthetic experience.
juttaschmi:
Thanks,
Carl!
CarlzimC:
No 4 D's in this chat
panta98: I
just wonder how many of our beautiful visitors and guests would be bewitched,
enchanted by this chat. However, many of us love the Fatherland, Our Father,
now, let the fatherland, the patria, illustrate to us what is gruesome,
systemic beauty at rest; what is frozen, morbid, moribund aesthetics.
juttaschmi:
Esthetic
experience and esthetic "workshop".
panta98: Many
a philosophic thinker tried very hard to spotlight beauty, but, in East
and West, North and South, labour -- slavery, feudalism and capitalism
-- progressively darkened the esthetic horizzon, ....
juttaschmi:
(workshop
- what an "ugly " term!)
panta98: ....
ushered in eternal "dark ages" of arrogance, ignorance, obscurantism and
bigotry. Hence, beauty, already nearly converted into merchandise, fled
this macabre scene, towards safer historic spheres.
CarlzimC:
We also have dishonesty out there. May I expand?
juttaschmi:
Please
do so, Carl.
juttaschmi:
Take
your time, Carl.
panta98:Carl,
proceed ....
CarlzimC:
In the early 1950's, it was apparent that the Soviet leadership planned
to switch to Capitalism. Stalin's book "Economic Problems of Socialism
in the USSR" (1952)...
panta98:Yes,
I remember, Carl ....
CarlzimC:
... describes the desired switch including favor of the most profitable
enterprises, cost accounting etc. It should have been entitled "Economic
Problems of Developing Capitalism in the USSR. "
panta98:Interesting,
Carl .....
CarlzimC:The
Soviets did not have the intellectual, technological and human Capital
to switch until the 1990's when they acquired this mainly through the Cold
War.
CarlzimC:Mao
Tse Tung was playing the same game in China.
CarlzimC:The
Soviet Union supported Castro's Cuba mainly to share control of the world
sugar market with the USA.
CarlzimC:
Comments?
panta98: Mao
wanted "a zillion flowers to bloom", but also "to set the prairie on fire
with a single spark".
panta98:
Folks, comment, before I proceed ....
CarlzimC:
He wanted China to defeat Japan economically.
juttaschmi:
Perhaps
it is not su much dishonesty, Carl. What you just elaborated is part of
the logic of the system.
CarlzimC:
Yep, Jutta.
juttaschmi:
And
you exactly showed the non-beauty of the economic relations on a world
wide scale from the 50´s on.
panta98: Yes,
part of the political "beauty" of the State of the System, of the Coming
New World Order, of Globalization, of Armageddon!
CarlzimC:
I'm surprised that Guevara and various other Third World revolutionaries
didn't see this developing switch, and inadvertently tried to depend on
the Soviet Union for support.
juttaschmi:
(not,
that economic relations BEFORE the 50´s were "beautiful".)
CarlzimC:
Was the Bandung Conference (1955), which claimed to produce a bloc of Asian,
African and Latin American countries to resist Colonialism genuine or a
media creation of the Illuminati for diversion?
juttaschmi:
The
revolutionaries were victims of ideology, too, Carl.
panta98: Their
Praxis was not beautiful, and their Theory, Thinking, was not truthful,
hence they could not excel lovingly. This is the related link to our topic
today!
They were part of "A", as "Non-A",
as the Negation in the very same, old, closed Labour system.
panta98: They
affirmed Labour, they wanted "change from within", they ONLY wanted to
"disalienate" labour, but not to blow Labour itself, Alienation per
se, to blazes, out of the Magellanic Clouds! That's what we have in
mind!
juttaschmi:
I
don´t think, that the Bandung Conference was a media creation for
illuminati entertainment, Carl.
naranjahit:
I
will sign out. Have a beautiful rest!
juttaschmi:
I'm
sorry, Stella.
juttaschmi:
Have
a good night´s rest, too.
CarlzimC:
Was Bandung genuine, Jutta?
naranjahit:
Bye!
panta98: Bye!
Stella!
CarlzimC:
Sorry, Stella. Schlafen Sie wohl.
juttaschmi:
Hope
to see you next Tuesday, Stella.
naranjahit has left the room.
juttaschmi:
Within
its context, I think it was a genuine effort against Western colonialism
and the East-West problematic, Carl.
CarlzimC:
Nasser tried by making Egypt an Arab country and succeeded.
panta98: Carl,
here is nothing "genuine" in the labour system, except "work", labour itself.
Nothing authentic, original, new, genuine, Carl. All genres of systemic
revolutionaries are products of the Great French Revolution; it's Ideology
was Capital, Egoism, Greed.
panta98: That
is the heartbeat of all revolutionaries, from Danton to Nkrumah, to Nasser,
to Che! Of the "Socialist international", of "Social Democracy", of Israeli
"Kibbutz-Zionism"! The revolutionary Labour Fox changed its hair, its lair,
but not its systemic-affirmative astuteness. The "historic" results we
could witness everywhere.
panta98: Continuing,
our introduction ...
panta98:
Now and then, in faraway emancipatory realms, at the utmost outer edges
of space and time, void of all forms of foreign tourism and alienated boredom,
in invisible, invulnerable, invincible flowery gardens and meadows, we
could still hear historic, beautiful nightingales, hear these charming,
enchanting love-birds, eternally bewitching and inspiring us with their
natural, beautiful, pandemonic symphonies.
GermanicWarlord: I'll be back. Dinner.
panta98: Let's
look at the "master of ideology", at cold-blooded rule of the iron-fist
of Spirit, of Reason:
panta98:
Hegel, in his theory of art, would define beauty as "the sensuous embodiment
of the Absolute Idea." For many, an "aesthetic" attitude is to divorce,
to cut oneself off from practical responsibility, is a kind of distancing
or standing back from social and emancipatory issues.
juttaschmi:
Enjoy
your dinner, Matt.
CarlzimC:
Have a good dinner, Matt
CarlzimC:
I'm saving the chat log.
panta98: Ideologically,
unknowingly, the modern bourgeois asthetic thinkers take their cue from
Kant, or even from Edward Bullough's essay, published in 1912, " 'Psychical
Distance' as a Factor in Art and an Aesthetic Principle".
panta98:
What kind of "aesthetic distance" is envisaged here? In any stereotypical,
unhappy, sadomasochistic marriage, is the withering away of her universal
"beauty" really the reason why the erstwhile fiery wife is now being divorced
by her debauched, physically overtrained, overstrained macho? Did she lose
her aesthetic "flex appeal"?
juttaschmi:
As
I said before, Franz: Beauty is not a matter of an aesthetic, isolated
entity.
panta98: If
aesthetically he, the macho, is distancing himself from her now,
then, by what "human right" or even "double standard", in which "magna
carta", did he ever call her "beautiful"? And, vice versa? Are the exploitative
products of labour beautiful - a dress, a car, a building, a city, Cape
Town, Vancouver, San Francisco?
panta98:A
rather high price for beauty! Are a natural panorama, the sunrise, the
full moon, a rainbow or an "untouched" jungle esthetic? A priceless, prizeless
beauty? They used to be beautiful, but now, in the globalized economy practically
nothing of their natural splendour is left.
CarlzimC:
Narcissism for big profits.
juttaschmi:
Agreed,
Carl.
juttaschmi:
And
agreed, Franz.
GermanicWarlord has left the room.
panta98: In
his work, Die Welt als Wille und Vorstellung [1819; The World
as Will and Idea], Arthur Schopenhauer propagated the idea that
anything could be seen as beautiful, as long as it is being regarded in
independence of one's will, independent of its "use-value"; we could add:
independent of its capitalist "exchange-value".
juttaschmi:Beauty,
as defined by the system, has to do with profit-making and ideology.
panta98: Yes,
Jutta.
panta98:
Also, Friedrich Schiller distanced artistic plays, creation and
appreciation from everyday reality, from social misery and poverty, thus,
he divorced "beauty" and surrendered it to feudalist leisure and bourgeois
pleasure:
panta98:
"With the agreeable, the good, the perfect, man is merely in earnest,
but with beauty he plays."
juttaschmi:
"independent"
means non-related. How can be spoken of beauty as something non-related?!
juttaschmi:
Even
in the proverb "Beauty is in the eye of the beholder" a RELATION
is implied.
panta98: As
explained before, our connotation of Beauty transcends all these idealistic,
spiritual, systemic, globalized aesthetic notions. That's all, folks!
THE DEBATE CONTINUES ....
juttaschmi:
Thank
you for your introduction, Franz. It is a difficult topic to elaborate.
panta98: So,
there we go, the floor is open: wall-flowers jive, dance! Yes, Jutta,
it is an extremely complex theme,
especially seen from our scientific-philosophic vantage point, and then
still to simplify it that everybody somehow follows the discussion - well-nigh
impossible.
juttaschmi:
Let
me just repeat the most important points of what I have observed before,
Franz and Carl:
panta98: OK!
juttaschmi:
Beauty,
within the system, and as Carl has just put it, is a matter of ideology
and of profit-making. If beauty doesn´t sell, it is simply not "beauty."
...
panta98: Frances
will join us .... She says: Hello, my life-companions!
juttaschmi:
Furthermore,
"beauty" is being "sold" as an isolated entity, as something "axiomatic",
where everybody supposedly agrees that it is "beautiful" by, for and through
itself. ...
juttaschmi:
....however,
even the famous "eye of the beholder" is a conditioned
eye, conditioned and trained
according to the needs of the labour process, according
to offer and demand on the MARKET.
panta98: Franz:
So, Beauty is being sold like a modern "African Slave".
panta98:
Frances:
Dad, you are exaggerating!
CarlzimC:
Beauty = creative expression. Today, composing and performing commercial
music is one area of racial collaboration, e.g., African and Caucasian
Americans (USA) in Jazz, Rock and Rap.
juttaschmi:Beauty
is Money and Money is Beauty within the capitalist market, Franz and Carl
and Frances. So is truth, love, freedom, fraternity etc. etc.
CarlzimC:
Hi, Frances.
panta98: Frances:
Hi, Carl. Hi, Jutta.
juttaschmi:
Hi
Frances.
panta98: Franz:
So, Money is Beauty, and Beauty is Money, that is all ye needeth to know!
CarlzimC:
Commercial beauty = time = money = power= alienation.
panta98: Frances:
No, not Money; Money is Power, and Power itself means Beauty in our life!
juttaschmi:
"Beauty"
within the system also has to do with the creation of artificial needs.
- Agreed, Carl. Excellent observation.
CarlzimC:
Alienation.
CarlzimC
has left the room.
panta98:Frances:
And there we are back to the sadomasochistic family relations.
CarlzimC
has entered the room.
juttaschmi:
Carl,
I came to your rescue beautifully quickly!
CarlzimC:
Thanks, Franz.
CarlzimC:
Thanks, Jutta.
panta98: Frances:
And there we are back to the sadomasochistic family relaytions.
juttaschmi:
You´re
welcome, Carl.
juttaschmi:
Carl,
"beauty" within the labour process most certainly is commercial beauty,
as you said.
juttaschmi:
Frances,
what is beauty for you?
juttaschmi:
Emancipatory
beauty is another thing.
juttaschmi:
(As
Franz has been elaborating in his introduction)
panta98: Frances:
Power, whether political, economic or social, is for Man Beautifulness!
Not the ingredients like Money; it is what one aims at.
CarlzimC:
Freud, Marcuse and Reich exposed sadomachoshistic family relations
panta98: Frances:
Difference, not Conformity, is for me Beauty!
CarlzimC:
Please expand, Frances.
juttaschmi:
And
power is the political power of the state to oppress the toiling working
force!
CarlzimC:
The political power of big global business.
panta98: Frances:
It's obvious, self-evident, Carl, in our world that Power makes the World
go around. Money is just an instrument.
juttaschmi:
Carl
and Frances: sado-masochistic family relations as exposed by Freud, Marcuse
and especially Reich is, what we would call non-beauty.
CarlzimC:
Yep, Jutta.
panta98: Frances:
This also explains why the revolutionaries fail, are to be bought, because
they are power-greedy!
panta98:
Frances:
Franz will comeback just now!
CarlzimC:
Some attempts to avoid SM family relations have been self-indulgence.
juttaschmi:
And
it is precisely the "institution" of the family, that constitutes the nucleus
of the modern nation-state, that is now withering away in our era of globalization!
CarlzimC:
A new Big Brother family.
juttaschmi:
Just
like the nation-states are losing their economic and political importance
and are decaying in favour of a global state, the family as the former
nucleus of the nation-state is falling apart - a perfect expression of
our times!
CarlzimC:
Family business (Big Brother's Mafia).
panta98: Frances:
You can avoid SM family relations, if there is respect for each other;
Respect is an expression of Love.
juttaschmi:
The
global Mafia substitutes the family, Carl.
CarlzimC:
Yep, Jutta.
juttaschmi:
With
its tentacles all over the planet ...!
juttaschmi:
What
will be difficult to accomplish is the omni-presence of Big Brother. But
they are working hard on it.
CarlzimC:
Big Brother is trying to destroy traditional SM family relations in the
Mideast. They won't succeed.
panta98:Frances:
Franz is back!
juttaschmi:This
almost makes Big Brother look emancipatory, Carl. ;-)
panta98:Franz:
What new family relations await us in the NWO, in the Information Age,
Carl?
CarlzimC:
Big Brother wants to substitute a global SM family.
GermanicWarlord has entered the room.
juttaschmi:
No
family relations at all, Franz. - Welcome back, Matt.
CarlzimC:
Hi, Matt.
panta98: HI!
Warlord!
GermanicWarlord:
Danke.
panta98: We
are family, my brothers and sisters, and me!
juttaschmi:
Did
you enjoy your last supper? ;-)
juttaschmi:
Sorry,
Easter is over now.
CarlzimC:
Jutta, with pockets of resistance
panta98: The
"First" or "Last" Supper, Matt?
CarlzimC:
On-going supper?
juttaschmi:
Carl,
please elaborate once again your concept of resistance.
panta98: Carl,
the current family was necessary for bourgeois, capitalist, productive
relations. What will happen in the "new" millennium, in the NWO?
CarlzimC:
Big Brother will kill a lot of people in the Mideast, but won't destroy
their traditions.
panta98: Affirmatio,
Confirmation, Conformation?
panta98:
Carl, what emancipatory value does traditions have, especially those of
archaic, obsolete production relations?
juttaschmi:
Franz:
The traditional family, as the nucleus of the former, modern nation-state,
will be withering away just like that nation-state itself in the era of
globalization. If we consider, that one of the central functions of the
family was the physical reproduction of the labour force, nowadays the
panorama is a different one: ...
juttaschmi:
...
the labour force will come into physical existence no longer by natural
procreation, but by cloning and artificial procreation, as a product of
the lab, so to speak.
CarlzimC:
People will practice tradiions secretly.
panta98: So,
we will have a "global village", a cloned "global family".
CarlzimC:
Big Brother will have to be satisfied with a cheap labor silicon valley
in Palestine.
panta98: Secretly
they will produce nothing. Labour will have to be in secret. What will
the "new" families do? Think?
CarlzimC:
In 2 separate States: Israel and Palestine.
juttaschmi:
The
whole enterprise of the human genome project has to do with the future
creation of a labour force apt for ever changing conditions of "life" on
earth or elsewhere.
GermanicWarlord:
I
support Palestine.
panta98: Surely,
they won't work, won't labour anymore --- that would be primitive communism,
slavery, feudalism, capitalism, communism, fascism, nazism!
juttaschmi:
No
new families, Franz.
juttaschmi:
New
dolly sheep.
panta98: They
have to do and think something "worse" -- what?
panta98:
Dolly Sheep Zombies --- what would they do and think?
CarlzimC:
Matt, I support two separate States: Israel and Palestine.
panta98: Carl
& Matt, I support Neither Israel Nor Palestine nor "Oceania"( 1984).
This would have nothing to do with Globalization.
juttaschmi:
Nothing,
Franz. Dolly Sheep Zombies are just like bits and bytes - they don´t
think.
panta98:One
state, two states, all states, are already going now to blazes! like the
Soviet Union -- Overnight Stock Market Shares!
CarlzimC:
Temporary, Franz.
juttaschmi:
Global
capital does not need nation-states anymore. Long ago already this stage
was surpassed.
panta98: So,
do, think, pray, believe will disappear from the face of the Earth?
juttaschmi:
Capital
has to "go galactic" now.
juttaschmi:
They
will have Israels and Palestines in galactic proportions!
CarlzimC:
Two economic areas - Palestine manufactures cheap computer hardware, and
Isreal cheap software.
panta98: Capital
itself, by "going galactic" will disappear! Also, any wares, hardwares,
softwares, die-hardwares will vanish into oblivion! Yes, what is the future
"generation" going to do and think in the galaxies, make war, declare the
"War Of The Galaxies"? Of that, we have had enough here and now already.
For that, capitalism does not need to "change" fundamentally, to go "galactic".
CarlzimC:
That's the NWO plan.
juttaschmi:
The
International Space Station is the platform for the new global or even
"galactic" state ....
panta98: :
Why
go galactic when you have it here already?!
CarlzimC:
Matt, everyone is changing, including Arabs and Jews. Visit www.arabia.com
panta98: What
is worse than War and Peace? Did not Orwell tell us what it would be? Read
your Orwell again!
panta98:
Leave the Bible, Capital, and Mein Kampf (War) aside!
CarlzimC:
Franz, freedom=slavery = doublethink = newspeak.
juttaschmi:
Friends,
my stomach now calls for a substantial nutrition input ("food" in traditional
terms).
panta98:Mine
too, Jutta.
panta98: Without
meaning this in a pejorative way, Africans, Arabs and Jews in the eyes
of Globalization are already dinosaurs of the Old World Order --- forget
them! Also, our "facts" and "data" -- concerning the precise degree
of "development" of the current epoch -- which we receive from Newspeak,
sorry, Newsweek, or CNN, are obsolete; they belong to the Dinosaur Age.
panta98: Hence,
for analytic purposes, for a while, let us just forget Arabs and Israelis,
Africa or the Mideast; for the "power elites", they made "history", are
"history" already! Like the "world proletariat"of the 18th, 19th and 20th
centuries, they do not have the slightest chance to "change" anything within
the inexorable Labour Process that would explode the "hell" out of the
whole system of alienation!
panta98:
5 billion are already on the way to the global "slaughterhouse"! And Global
Armageddon, like Global Capital, is not "racist" at all; the guillotine
tolls for all of us, independent of our "race" or "sex"!
"GOOD"-BYE!
juttaschmi:
So,
let us continue next Tuesday and caress our stomachs now.
CarlzimC:
Trevor Roper recently published the book Conversations with Hitler-interviews
(1940-1942)
panta98: Folks,
it was a beautiful cometogether, our objective is clear, is beautiful.
juttaschmi:
Is
that available online, too, Carl.?
panta98: Let's
continue with our subjective, with Truth, next time.
juttaschmi:
D'accord,
Franz.
panta98:
I love the Arabs, I love the Jews, but I love the Truth More.
CarlzimC:
I don't know if it's online.
CarlzimC:
Agreed, Franz,
juttaschmi:
First
comes the meal, then the morals, ethics and aesthetics, as Brecht would
say ...
panta98: I'll
send you this original manuscript just now.
juttaschmi:
...
so let´s do something to round up our international figures.
juttaschmi:
Okay,
thanks, Franz.
GermanicWarlord:
I'll
see you guys later. Good discussion.
juttaschmi:
Carl
and Matt, see you next Tuesday.
panta98: Carl
and Matt, a zillion thanks for participating. Also thanks for your thought
appetizers!
CarlzimC:
Hitler said he was as dependent on his beauracracy as they were dependent
on him.
juttaschmi:
Hope
that Jürgen will be able to make it next time.
panta98: Bye,
Matt. Till next Tuesday!
GermanicWarlord:
Haha.
Adios.
juttaschmi:
Dependence
is always two-sided, Carl.
juttaschmi:
Adios,
Matt.
panta98: Yes,
he said that he could not make it.
GermanicWarlord
has left the room.
panta98:Next
week he will be there.
CarlzimC:Bye,
Matt
panta98:Excellent,
Carl. Hitler!!!
juttaschmi:
Okay.
Good night, Carl, it was a pleasure. Thanks for your postings into my mailbox.
I always enjoy reading them.
CarlzimC:
Fran sends her regards too Franz, Jutta and Frances.
panta98: OK,
Folks, my stomach roars like a warlord! Like the God Thor!
juttaschmi:
Thank
you, Carl. Send Fran our regards, too, please.
panta98: Greetings
to Fran, from Frances and me!
juttaschmi:
Happy
Supper, all!
panta98: ye!
CarlzimC:
You're welcome, Franz.
juttaschmi:
La
lutta continua next time.
panta98: The
chat is coming.
panta98:
Bye!
juttaschmi:bye
CarlzimC:
Wa alaikum salaam
juttaschmi
has left the room.
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