[Charli_MacBoyd] OKay - this isn't really my area of expertise but I'll throw it open.

[Jatamansi] no throwing of the popcorn, i ain't vacuuming... but anyways, continue

[elisif] ::sits next to jata::

[Charli_MacBoyd] We're gonna talk about class distinctions in Lord of the Rings

[Elanor] slobs out on the floor

>> IamGoddess has joined channel #Cheese_Chat

[Charli_MacBoyd] So first off lets start with distinctions in the first novel

mulysa> wb iam

[elisif] wb goddess

[Macbean] wb Mrsp

[Jatamansi] okey doe

[Elanor] whos first charli

[Jatamansi] wb iag

[IamGoddess] Thank you

[Charli_MacBoyd] and where the class structures are and how they were portrayed in the film

[IamGoddess] Sorry...topic?

[Charli_MacBoyd] Mul?

mulysa> alrighty..i gues i'll begin..hold on a sec

[IamGoddess] Oh...class structures in the movie vs film?

[Elanor] We're gonna talk about class distinctions in Lord of the Rings

[Charli_MacBoyd] k

[IamGoddess] thanks elanor

[Jatamansi] k

[Charli_MacBoyd] Do you want me to narrow it down a bit more to begin with?

[IamGoddess] sure

[Elanor] Well, shall we agree there WERE class distinctions

[IamGoddess] I think we can do that

[Charli_MacBoyd] Shall we look at Elves and and the dwarfs first?

[IamGoddess] Between species as well as withing species

[IamGoddess] sure

[elisif] good point goddess

[Macbean] .

[Charli_MacBoyd] How did that differentiate between book and film?

[IamGoddess] Mul is first right?

mulysa> basically, I thought it was really evident in the book how people were born into a certain role,

- and it was tehir destiny to fulfil them. and it was the destiny of them not only to fulfil who they were,

- but to remain the class they were born into. sam, int he book, was a servant, lower than frodo. it was a

- very unequal relationship. but then in the movie they couldnt do that. in the movie it was a friendship,

- a more updtaed look at relationships, sicne we are more of a class-less society..gah..

>> chuck has joined channel #Cheese_Chat

mulysa> long..heya chuck

[Charli_MacBoyd] Hi Chuck

[elisif] Hi Chuck

[chuck] hi

[Jatamansi] hi chuck, have some popcorn and join the discussion

[IamGoddess] chuck

[Charli_MacBoyd] Do you think Sam ended up as more than just a servant?

[Charli_MacBoyd] Or was he still the lowest at the end of the book?

[chuck] sweet jesus i'm tired

[IamGoddess] Higher

[Elanor] no way Charli

[Jatamansi] i definately believe that sam was able to gain a higher position

[IamGoddess] To appeal to a wider audience

[Jatamansi] he was denied the opportunity, but stepped up and carried it in the end, which is very

- symbolic

[IamGoddess] A more modern audience

[Macbean] sensitivitye within our own cultures charli

mulysa> definately..people dont really have servants today as much..

[Jatamansi] i agree, morg

mulysa> a friendship is easier to understand

[elisif] maybe reduce the number of themes as well?

[Elanor] he was aways "Mr Frodo" so there was some master-servant stuff

>> Bryn has joined channel #Cheese_Chat

[IamGoddess] But the servant/master relationship is not defined in LOTR the same as it is in real

- life...Frodo never treated Sam badly or as a slave

[Jatamansi] i think the book did a better job of analyzing what's wrong in our culture in a

- master-servant way

mulysa> hello bryn

[elisif] the book is more multilayered

[Bryn] Heeej

[Charli_MacBoyd] Isn;t true as well that defined class structures like that are quite an archytypal

- english thing

[IamGoddess] Hi bryn

[Bryn] heej everyone!

[IamGoddess] Yes Chalri..very true

[Charli_MacBoyd] Hi Bryn

[IamGoddess] But I see Sam as Frodo's batman

[Elanor] do you think he would have treated Sam badly tho, not in his nature

[IamGoddess] I don't mean the superhero

[Bryn] who's seen the trailer?

[Macbean] structured caht bryn

[Elanor] that is love I think

[Jatamansi] i think that was more about friendship than anything else

[IamGoddess] That is his sacrafice as a friend

[Charli_MacBoyd] Do you think if Frodo had known what he was doing he would have resisted?

[Bryn] structured caht?

mulysa> but would frodo have gone w/o for sam..?

[elisif] what you d do to your firend or child

[Charli_MacBoyd] Or would he have seen it as Sams duty

[Jatamansi] yes i do

[Elanor] yes

[IamGoddess] Yes Charli

[Macbean] topic bryn.

[IamGoddess] Yes he would have resisted

[Bryn] topic?

[Jatamansi] as his friend, frodo would definately resisted

[Bryn] loony bin?

[Bryn] bb.net?

[Elanor] class distinctions

[IamGoddess] Yes Frodo would have also done the same for Sam

[Bryn] cheesechat?

[Bryn] er

[Elanor] in the book vs film

[Charli_MacBoyd] Bryn - we're talking about class distinctions in the book and the film

[Bryn] ooook

[Jatamansi] i think that if frodo and sam's positions had been reversed, there would have still been the

- same outcome

[IamGoddess] By the time they get to Mordor, all distinctions have beenburned away

[Bryn] and i asked if someone already saw the trailer of TTT

[IamGoddess] I think so too Jat

[Jatamansi] at that point, i think they were just two sides of the same whole

mulysa> i honestly see some ways in which sam was always portrayed as "lower" than frodo..no less noble,

- but just not as able as frodo..

[Elanor] agree, except for Frodo's personal charge to destroy the ring

[IamGoddess] But Frodo is not as strong as Sam and would not have been able to support Sam the same way

[Bryn] but the question will not be answered, cuz noooo you have to stay on-topic

[Macbean] I agree with muly..but is that because of when the book was written?

[Bryn] and let it be me to get off-topic

[Bryn] how bad

[Macbean] you got it bryn

[IamGoddess] Yes Bryn..some have seen it!

[Jatamansi] i agree iag

[Bryn] ok

[Bryn] but i wanna know how it was

[Macbean] why do you say that MrsP?

[Bryn] cuz I didnt see it

[Macbean] wait til we are finished bryn

[IamGoddess] Well Morgan, Sam is of a different nature emotionally, he is truly of the earth

[Bryn] no, i queued for THREE hours in the row for the newest rollercoaster

[IamGoddess] He is solid, like stone and dirt and tree roots...he is less affected by starlight than is

- Frodo

[Charli_MacBoyd] I think so too...I think because Frodo is a master class not a servile class - had he

- been charged to protect Sam and help Sam he would have found it harder

[Bryn] but go on

[Bryn] i'll wait

[IamGoddess] The ring holds no power over him.

[Bryn] yep, i love to wait

[IamGoddess] Agreed Charli..also true

[Jatamansi] agree charli

[Macbean] ah..that makes sense Iag

[Bryn] ya know, i always have to wait, just like in the rollercoasterrow today

[Bryn] man it was hot

[Bryn] and my watersupply was shrinking

[Bryn] i almost fainted

[Bryn] oh sorry

[Bryn] ya were talkin

[Charli_MacBoyd] Where do hobbits come then in the overall Species class structure?

[IamGoddess] Could whomever saw the trailer tell Bryn privately what it was about so we canget back to

- our discussion. Please

[IamGoddess] Theya re the lowest..the agriculteral end of things

[Elanor] hobbits missed out, since they were a forgotton people

[Charli_MacBoyd] Where do they rank against Dwarves?

[Bryn] well nevermind

[Jatamansi] agree elanor

[IamGoddess] Good Elanor

[elisif] charli: the class dist. is a very british thing, but we are used to seeing that on other movies

- (just a comment on smth a while ago...sorry im abit slow tonight)

[IamGoddess] Lower than dwarves

[Elanor] not sure where to place them (eg Pippin at Minas Tirith being a Prince)

[Charli_MacBoyd] We won;t be long Bryn

[Jatamansi] about the same as dwarves

mulysa> Actually, i think Toliek was trying to make the hobbits ebtter than the other races..

[Jatamansi] they're both near the end, it's just that the hobbits were a bit overlooked

[Charli_MacBoyd] I think in the film there's virtually nothing made about any distinctions between the

- species

[IamGoddess] The hobbits are like mythical beings to the rest of middle earth

>> angelloon has joined channel #Cheese_Chat

mulysa> hello agel

[IamGoddess] I agree Charli..even the dwarf/elf animosity is downplayed

[Jatamansi] but by the end of the book, they've really stood up and taken a big leap on the "food chain"

- so to speak

[Charli_MacBoyd] hi angel

[angelloon] hi

[elisif] hi angellon

[Macbean] hey angel

[Elanor] There were certainly distinctions within the races tho

[Jatamansi] hi angel

[IamGoddess] I agree Jat

[angelloon] whats up?:)

[Charli_MacBoyd] What about the Dwarves and the Elves?

[Charli_MacBoyd] It was quite clear - even in the film - that the elves looked down on the dwarves

[Elanor] organised chat Angel on class distinctions in the book and film

[IamGoddess] Elves are considered supierior..the Elder race and Dwarves are considered lesser as they

- were not made by the Valar

mulysa> they def didn't like eachtother in the book..

[elisif] the elves are kinda above all, but also a bit "outside"

[angelloon] ok

[Macbean] ..

[Jatamansi] elves are made out to be at the top, but i believe that men and the hobbits rule out in the

- end

[Charli_MacBoyd] Do you think the elves thought themselves to be above all other beings

[IamGoddess] The elves time is passing

[Jatamansi] yes

[IamGoddess] Yes..they were told they were

[Elanor] The book is a lot about the "rule" passing from the Eldar to me

[Elanor] men\

[IamGoddess] Exactly Elanor

[Elanor] the book and film makes this clear

[Jatamansi] it's all very similar to a family hierarchy, i think

[IamGoddess] that's why the whole story is told fromthe perspective of hobbits and men...

[Elanor] eg It is to men we must look

mulysa> in the book, i think is was interesting how aragorn knew he was going to rule, but in the movie..

- he was reluctant

[Jatamansi] as the eldest generation dies, the younger and more flexable generations step forward

[Charli_MacBoyd] So where do men fit in all this?

[IamGoddess] They made a huge mistake with that Mul

[Elanor] as they no longer have interest in the world of middle earth - tired out

mulysa> i guess to create more pathos for the character..but it seemed very off to me

[Elanor] I agree with IAG

[IamGoddess] Men are the future...they are ... what's the word... transmutable

[Jatamansi] i look at the Elves as the grandparents, the Men as the parents, and the hobbits as the teens

- coming of age

[Jatamansi] no pun intended

mulysa> heh

[Elanor] So many of the elder races, elves, ents - less offspring, loss of vigor as a species

[IamGoddess] Men are more of a replacable resources...they live shorter lives and breed more..where as

- the elves live extremely long and breed less

[Charli_MacBoyd] That's a good one jata

[IamGoddess] that is good Jat

>> Garwyn has joined channel #Cheese_Chat

mulysa> hello gar

[IamGoddess] hi gar

[Elanor] hi

[Jatamansi] hi gar

[Garwyn] holaaaaaaaaa

[Charli_MacBoyd] Hola Garwyn

[angelloon] hi garwyn

[Garwyn] holaaaa Iam

[Macbean] hey garwyn ((hugs)))

mulysa> i thinmk men really represented the futre.. which may be why they tried to portray aragorn as

- afraid of his past in the movie..

[Elanor] We are talking about the class distinctions in the book and film

[Garwyn] hola macbean ::hugs::

[Jatamansi] good point, mul

[Macbean] :)

[Garwyn] holaaa charli

mulysa> but past is a big thing in the book, going with the whole class, who are who you were born to be

[elisif] fallable but thats what we ve got - i think its very pragmatic in one sence and very reluctantly

- optimistic....hard to put my finger on

[IamGoddess] :-(

[Garwyn] hey jatamansi

[Garwyn] whats wrong Iam?

[IamGoddess] Nothing Gar *S*

[IamGoddess] As middle earth gets older, it ages more quickly...and the men are more able to adapt to

- that

[Garwyn] hello bryn... my mother

[Charli_MacBoyd] Are the elves arrogant about their postion do you think?

[IamGoddess] No...sad

[Elanor] ages = changes you mean

[Bryn] hello garwyn!

[IamGoddess] Yes elanor...sorry

[Bryn] theyre in a topic, i have to shut up

[Jatamansi] yes, because they see themselves as the elder statesmen who pass their knowledge and

- experience to the up and comers

[Elanor] I see them as sad, and becoming a bit lost as to their role here in ME

mulysa> the elves were a bit more above it all and impish and sure of themselves int eh book, if i

- remember tright..

[IamGoddess] I agree with Elanor on this...

[Jatamansi] agree, elanor

[elisif] some are perceived to be by the others

[IamGoddess] Inthe book they do act a might more supierior..and in the movie Elrond is one haughty elf...

[Charli_MacBoyd] Having seen the elves in the film I was at a loss to see what Sam got so excited about -

- no wonder he couldn't wait to go home again

[Elanor] Their lives had become a celebration of the glories of their past in some respect - eg their

- love of historic songs

[Charli_MacBoyd] They seemed tired and worn to me

[Jatamansi] yep.. i always thought that was sad

mulysa> yeah, elenor..

[IamGoddess] But in the book we find out that sam gets his ideas about th elves fromthe old stories that

- Bilbo told him

[Elanor] a fading people, soon to forsake ME

mulysa> that is why they go to the west..they have not much to _do_ really..

[IamGoddess] He only knows what they elves used to be..so he is enamored of their past

[IamGoddess] When he finds out what they areally are..he is less awestruck

[Charli_MacBoyd] He wasn't the only one

[Charli_MacBoyd] :D

[IamGoddess] Sam is a sharp cookie

[Jatamansi] i believes he loses a part of his innocence when he realizes that the old stories of Bilbo

- don't apply anymore

mulysa> lol

[IamGoddess] LOL

[Bryn] lol

[angelloon] I haven't read the entire book yet but I have a question...

[IamGoddess] Exactly Jat

[Garwyn] poor sam

[Charli_MacBoyd] Go ahead Angel

[IamGoddess] Yes angel

mulysa> i think it is important that the hobbits began their historuies then ...

[IamGoddess] I agree mul

[angelloon] middle earth was on earth right, thousands of years ago...

[Jatamansi] agree.

[IamGoddess] Well, that is the supposition

[Elanor] One of the questions Tolkien seems to raise is "What is a true hero", those whose lives are told

- in sagas and great deeds or those who do the little deeds, such as care for the earth

[IamGoddess] Very good Elanor

mulysa> well, its a mythology about earth that Tolkien created..

[Elanor] Sam looks up to the former

[Jatamansi] yep, elanor

[Macbean] .

[IamGoddess] But sam is the later in actual fact

[Bryn] yep

[angelloon] and then the world developed into the continents (europe, asia etc.) Humans are still here

- but what was supposed to have happened with elves, hobbits...?

[Elanor] not that he recognises it in himself

mulysa> eleves went west..hobbits are hiding from us

[IamGoddess] Elves went to the havens...the hidden place..and hobbits faded away and are not seen

[angelloon] Mulysa: yeah, I know, but it was supposed to be on earth?:)

[IamGoddess] No Elanor...that's true

[Charli_MacBoyd] And I ate all the dwarves

mulysa> ew

[IamGoddess] lol

[IamGoddess] Ewww

[Elanor] I think of the comparison with Avalon - drifting further away in time and space

[Garwyn] lol

[IamGoddess] Stringy

[elisif] and walter

[Jatamansi] charli!

[Charli_MacBoyd] :: burps::

[Jatamansi] i hope you added salt...

[Jatamansi] anyways..

[Charli_MacBoyd] Now you know

[IamGoddess] I think the Havens are in a different time and space

[Jatamansi] i think that the Havens are Tolkien's vision of Atlantis

[IamGoddess] Thanks for clearing that up Charli

[Elanor] or Avalon

mulysa> but the fact that tolkien spent so much time on the past epic tales lends them some importance..

- past is as important as the future..

[IamGoddess] Good one Jat..very true

[Charli_MacBoyd] He created a literary eco-system

[IamGoddess] The past teaches us about the future..the future was not possible without the Elves past

- deeds

[IamGoddess] Good one charli

mulysa> true

[Jatamansi] yep

mulysa> and I think this deal with the past is not as protrayed in the film as it was in teh books..

[Jatamansi] we always learn in history class that you must learn from the past in order to have

- future... this was Tolkien's verson of that

[IamGoddess] Very true mul

[IamGoddess] Also true Jat

[Jatamansi] true mul

[Elanor] If you compare the elves to hobbits, its like ancients to children, rather than high to low

[Charli_MacBoyd] Maybe there's an underlying message there - that all classes and all species can work

- together in order to achieve the greater goofd

[Garwyn] true jat

[IamGoddess] I like that Chalri..and I think that is waht Tolkien was rebelling against..

[Elanor] yes, and the goodness inside a person determines whether they are high or low

mulysa> yes, people must work together, but everybody has their own part to play, their own role..kinda

- stratified, but no less important

[elisif] agree elanor

[Charli_MacBoyd] Yes, It's not where you're born that matters but how you live your life

[IamGoddess] That is why at the end, Sam is held in higher esteeem than Frodo

[Elanor] very good C

[Charli_MacBoyd] :D

[IamGoddess] Frodo was more like the elves but Sam is the future

[Charli_MacBoyd] <---is on form tonight

[Jatamansi] i think Tolkien was trying to convey with the selection of small Hobbits to change the world

- his desire to see that all creatures can work together

[Garwyn] agree charli

mulysa> but where yiu were born determines a very many things about you, though..

[Jatamansi] size doesn't matter

[Charli_MacBoyd] And still does Mul

[Charli_MacBoyd] No matter what anyone says

[Elanor] and that we should not forget the little people (not stature so much )

mulysa> frodod could not be king, and no human could carry the ring..

mulysa> whoo..!!that rhymed..

[Charli_MacBoyd] People will always judge you from where you came from without knowing a thing about you

[Jatamansi] go mul!

[IamGoddess] Thos we see as lesser than us make our lives possible...

[Jatamansi] agreed, charli

[Jatamansi] and that's a shame

[IamGoddess] We cannot function without the workers...the thinkers and the doers

[elisif] yes, but even tho your life is determined from where ur born, etc, you have many decisions to

- make that decides what ur role is going to be

[Bryn] bye people

[Charli_MacBoyd] Bye Bryn

[Elanor] look at how Tolkien treats Denethor

[Bryn] it was nice to talk to you

mulysa> byes

[IamGoddess] bye bryn

[Bryn] =)

[elisif] bye

[angelloon] bye

[Elanor] bye

>> Bryn has left channel #Cheese_Chat

[IamGoddess] Sorry you didn't get you answer

[Garwyn] bye bryn..kisses

[Garwyn] late again

[IamGoddess] What about it Elanor

[IamGoddess] Denethor is a character who was once held in high esteem but has become petty and small

- minded

[Elanor] Denethor is noble in terms of lineage, but he becomes a lesser character by his actions

[Jatamansi] agreed

[elisif] agree

[IamGoddess] I think we just said the same thing

[Jatamansi] lol

mulysa> heh

[Macbean] keen minds think alike!!

[Macbean] :)

[Jatamansi] we know that, right morg?

[Jatamansi] ;)

[Elanor] and Theoden has become reduced by Grima, only his renewal by Gandalf recues him from obscurity

[IamGoddess] Tolkien seems to be saying that if you think you are better than others, then you will

- fall...

[IamGoddess] Pride goeth before the fall

[Macbean] eyp

[Jatamansi] but only after you feel the pain from your broken tailbone

[IamGoddess] There's Tokien's Catholicism coming out again

[Macbean] ;)

[Elanor] need for pain and suffering as part of the journey

[Charli_MacBoyd] Where does Gollum fit into all this?

[IamGoddess] Good point

mulysa> you need to not just act noble, but do noble deeds, etc..

[Elanor] He is fallen the most and redeemed the greatest

[Jatamansi] yes, el

[IamGoddess] But is he redeemed?

[Charli_MacBoyd] But is Gollum redeemed by choice or circumstance?

[IamGoddess] He is like an evil hobbit...

[Jatamansi] his soul is not, but his memory is, i think

[IamGoddess] Circumstance

[Jatamansi] the memory others have of him, i mean

[Charli_MacBoyd] I think so too Iag

[Jatamansi] circumstance

[Elanor] I think of the scene where Gollum and Smeagol are fighting within the same body

[Jatamansi] definately

[Macbean] .

[Elanor] he does have good in him and is worthy of redemption

[IamGoddess] I think witin Gollum is a ver small part of him who misses what he used to be before he

- found the ring...and in a way it is what enables him to help Frodo

[Charli_MacBoyd] Gollum seems to be right at the bottom of the list

[Jatamansi] agreed on both

[Charli_MacBoyd] Gollum is almost the Anti-Frodo - he is everything that Frodo could be

[Macbean] do you think that being around sam and frodo helps him remember who and what he was mrsP?

[IamGoddess] I think Gollum is outside the class structure though is supposed to represent the individual

- free will

[Elanor] gollum's role in part is to remind us of where Bilbo or Frodo could have got to if they had

- succumed to the ring

[IamGoddess] I think so Morgan..a little...

[IamGoddess] He sees how the two hobbist are with each other and a part of him yearns for that

[Jatamansi] i believe that gollum represents all that can happen to a person if they are allowed to be

- corrupted by greed

[Jatamansi] and Frodo has pity on him because he recognizes that

[IamGoddess] Good point Jat

[Charli_MacBoyd] yes agreed

[Elanor] also Grima as an example

[Jatamansi] yep

[elisif] i think of gollum like the criminals in our society - some ppl d like to get rid of them, bbut

- who are you to judge...

[Jatamansi] at the beginning, Frodo detests Gollum because he has not yet seen what he has become

[Charli_MacBoyd] I agree Eli

[IamGoddess] That is Gandalf's point

[Elanor] I think shelob is the lowest of the low - pure evil and malice

[IamGoddess] Some who deserve death live and those that die deserve it not

[Jatamansi] but at the end, heunderstands Bilbo's pity, because he sees that Gollum is everythign that he

- may become

[Charli_MacBoyd] I've heard a rumour that Shelob is not being introduced until the 3rd film

[Elanor] agreed Jat

mulysa> i heard that, too

[IamGoddess] How can they do that if Frodo goes to Cirith Ungol?

[Elanor] Fran Walsh has confirmed that

[IamGoddess] Hrm?

[Jatamansi] and as he would like to be redeemed should he fall to that fate, Frodo wants to redeem Gollum

[Charli_MacBoyd] and that PJ is not ending the film with the scouring of the Shire

[Jatamansi] both rumors are right

[Charli_MacBoyd] But I digress - I apologise

[IamGoddess] I've heard that too Charli...makes me sad!

[Elanor] :pats Charli:

[Charli_MacBoyd] :0

[IamGoddess] I'd love to get my hands on a script!

[Charli_MacBoyd] Was Gollum redeemed by death?

[IamGoddess] Yes

[Jatamansi] only in the memory of him held by others, i think

[Elanor] yes

mulysa> hmm...

[Elanor] One wonders of course if Tolkien gave peeps souls/ afterlife

mulysa> in his mythology?

[IamGoddess] Yes he did if youread the Silmarillion

[Jatamansi] <-- still reading it

[elisif] not by death, by his acts and by that last "happening"

[Elanor] yes, the creation of ME is very allegorical to the creation story

[Macbean] .

[Jatamansi] agree

mulysa> i think gollum could only be free in death..

[Elanor] yes

[Macbean] i agree with muly

[IamGoddess] Hve to go...finish dinner...see you all tomorrow!

>> IamGoddess has left channel #Cheese_Chat

[Jatamansi] that was fast

[Macbean] bye?

[Macbean] wow.

[Charli_MacBoyd] Cripes

[Garwyn] bye iam... late

[Elanor] dinner burning perhaps

mulysa> lol

[Macbean] hmmm...

mulysa> i have to get going soon, as well..

[Elanor] :vision of IAG fighting through the smoke clouds and smell of char:

[Jatamansi] lol!

[Macbean] LOL elanor...

[Charli_MacBoyd] I think we've exhausted the topic anyways

[Macbean] my house every night

[Charli_MacBoyd] But another good one guys

[Macbean] :)

[Macbean] eyp

mulysa> :D

[elisif] i think maybe i understand something else with redeem - thats an interesting q, btw, (von

- Trier...)

[Jatamansi] ::hugs::

[angelloon] well, I've got to go.... bye bye!:)

[Jatamansi] just felt like it, sorry....

[Charli_MacBoyd] Who sad Von Trier?

[Jatamansi] bye angel!

mulysa> byes

[Elanor] bye Angel

[Macbean] bye angle

[Charli_MacBoyd] As in Lars