archives of the CONLANG mailing list
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>From riddle@is.rice.edu Sun Nov 7 14:52:01 1993
From: riddle@is.rice.edu (Prentiss Riddle)
Message-Id: <9311071351.AA09748@is.rice.edu>
Subject: Re: Anaphora
To: conlang@diku.dk
Date: Sun, 7 Nov 1993 07:51:48 -0600 (CST)
In-Reply-To: <9310241310.AA28087@netcom6.netcom.com> from "Rick Morneau" at Oct 24, 93 02:31:35 pm
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> Date: Sun, 24 Oct 93 14:31:35 +0100
> From: ram@netcom.com (Rick Morneau)
> Subject: Anaphora
[I'm trying to catch up after a long pause in readling the conlang list.
Fascinating stuff like this makes me glad I susbsribe even though I
can't really keep up!]
It seems to me that this is as much a stylistic issue as a grammatical
one. In any language which has defined grammatically sound idioms for
verbalizing mathematical concepts, it is grammatically possible to say
something like:
Dog A was attracted to dog B, but dog A's owner kept A away
from B.
(Or some variant thereof.) Note that this is very similar to
constructions involving "the first dog" and "the second dog", except
that it explicitly labels the referents when they first appear.
However, normal English stylistic conventions would not approve of this
solution -- it reeks of adolescent nerdiness. Perhaps this simply
supports what those who work on literary contributions to conlangs have
known all along: that defining the stylistic norms of a conlang is as
significant as defining its grammar. The grammarians' job is to come
up with a rich enough set of structures to give the stylists plenty of
tools to work with.
On to one of Rick's specific examples:
> Unfortunately, English is not really suited for this. A conlang,
> however, can be designed to allow such an anaphoric system, and there
> are many ways to do it. Here's one possible approach:
>
> Let open class words have the following form:
>
> stem + classifier + part-of-speech
>
> where
>
> stem = [CV] [] = 1 or more of the enclosed item
> classifier = CC C = consonant
> part-of-speech = V V = vowel ('o'=noun, 'e'=verb, etc.)
>
> Thus, examples of open class words would be "mande", "kitusta",
> "jonabefti", etc. (You would probably want to exercise some
> restraint in your choice of legal consonant clusters to make
> pronunciation as easy as possible.)
>
> An anaphor can be created from the head word of any phrase by
> replacing the classifier and as many preceding syllables of the
> stem as needed by a glottal stop, represented here by an
> apostrophe. Thus, the following noun phrase:
>
> Timanodendo janasuski tupya
> engineer sanitary ten
> "Ten sanitary engineers"
>
> could be abbreviated to "ti'o", "tima'o" or "timano'o".
As you point out, this is only a partial solution. Note that it's
subject to ambiguity if only the head word is identical. In a quarrel
between ten sanitary engineers and seven linguistic engineers
("timanodendo lanaguski sapya"), this system would abbreviate each camp
to "ti'o" or "timano'o".
What you might want is to allow an anaphor to be constructed from *any*
distinctive element of a phrase. Thus you could refer to "the
sanitaries vs. the linguistics" ("jana'o" vs. "lana'o") or "the ten"
vs. "the seven" ("tu'o" vs. "sa'o"). Note that this begins to resemble
common literary and colloquial structures found in English and other
natlangs.
-- Prentiss Riddle ("aprendiz de todo, maestro de nada") riddle@rice.edu
-- Systems Programmer, Office of Networking Services
-- Rice University, POB 1892, Houston, TX 77251 / Mudd 208 / 713-285-5327
-- Opinions expressed are not necessarily those of my employer.
>From riddle@is.rice.edu Sun Nov 7 16:01:50 1993
From: riddle@is.rice.edu (Prentiss Riddle)
Message-Id: <9311071501.AA10489@is.rice.edu>
Subject: Metaphor, prepositions, time and space
To: conlang@diku.dk
Date: Sun, 7 Nov 1993 09:01:37 -0600 (CST)
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I came late to the "metaphor and prepositions" thread of last summer,
and I'm not sure I grasp all of what was said in a hurried review, but
it raises a question I've been meaning to ask:
I vaguely recall from my youthful reading of Whorf an assertion that at
least one of the languages he studied (probably Hopi) did not rely the
way Standard Average European languages do upon the metaphorical use of
spatial concepts. (For an example, note the use of "at" and "upon" in
the preceding sentence.) Furthermore, I also vaguely recall that
speakers of the language in question don't express matters of time
using spatial terminology (the way we "look forward", "think back",
etc.). I believe that this avoidance of spatial metaphor was part of
what contributed to the legend that Hopi is better for thinking about
modern physics than English (one of the dubious overstatements of some
extreme supporters of the Sapir-Whorf hypothesis).
So: can anyone corroborate my memory that Whorf addressed this point,
and specifically what he said? Has modern scholarship born him out?
How do languages which don't rely on spatial metaphors work? Are they
unusual, or are they the norm and is SAE the oddball? Has anyone done
anything like this with conlangs? Is it *desirable* to eschew such
overloading of concepts in a conlang?
-- Prentiss Riddle ("aprendiz de todo, maestro de nada") riddle@rice.edu
-- Opinions expressed are not necessarily those of my employer.
>From EZ-as-pi@cup.portal.com Sun Nov 7 17:12:18 1993
From: EZ-as-pi@cup.portal.com
Subject: Time/space metaphors
Lines: 12
Date: Sun, 7 Nov 93 08:12:22 PST
Message-Id: <9311070812.2.4351@cup.portal.com>
X-Origin: The Portal System (TM)
I don't know about languages that do
not use spatial metaphors for time at
all, as Prentiss Riddle was referencing,
but I recall reading somewhere that
some languages use the metaphors in a
way that would seem backwards to an
English speaker: what is behind you
is out of sight, and what is in front
is clearly visible, so in the logic
of these languages the future is
"behind" and the past is "in front of"
us.
>From thabick@rosedale.org Mon Nov 8 21:32:58 1993
Message-Id: <199311082032.AA19201@gateway.rosedale.org>
Received: by pclan.rosedale.org with VINES ; Mon, 8 Nov 93 12:55:57 EST
Date: Mon, 8 Nov 93 11:49:56 EST
From: thabick@rosedale.org
Subject: re: Metaphor, prepositions, time and space
To further reflections by EZ-as-pi and Prentiss Riddle:
Mandarin Chinese expresses past and future, in part, by means of prepositional
metaphors of down and up.
The word "xia" literally means down, and the word "shang" literally means up,
but the words also are used (quite commonly and probably without reflection on
the metaphor just as we don't think of any flying metaphor when we talk of a
"flight of stairs") to mean "next" and "last." So for the Chinese, the future
is below them and the past is above them as in "xiage yue" --next month, the
down month--and shangge yue--last month, the up month. So the time line seems
to flow from below (where the future resides) to the present and then to above
(where the recent past resides).
Mandarin also uses the metaphors of "in front of" and "behind" to refer to
past and future, so "yi qian" means "before; situations that used to be" and
"yi hou" means "after; situation in the future." So here the time line seems
to flow from behind (where the future resides) to in front of (where the past
resides). (Compare "qianmian" ahead and "houmian" behind.)
So in the same language the past is both in front of and above, and the future
is both behind and below. I like the idea that you can't see what is behind
you (so that's where the future resides) but you can see what is in front of
you (so that's where the past resides). But why can you more easily see what
is above you (past) than what is below you (future)?
The only logic to this, if any, is to be found historically. Synchronically,
speakers must make do with what they're given. For Mandarin, this is no
simple task since speakers have to contend with a competing "immediate future"
sense of "shang" in its meaning of "to go," as in "wo shang ce suo" I'm
going to the toilet" Maybe this is short for "I'm [going] up [the street to
the] toilet" It is this sense of shang that is relevant in the name Shanghai,
not "up sea" but "[go] up [to the] sea"
>From donh@netcom.com Sun Nov 14 17:58:06 1993
Message-Id: <199311141651.IAA01330@mail.netcom.com>
To: conlang@diku.dk
Cc: Don Harlow
Subject: Andre' Martinet
Organization: Esperanto League for North America, Inc.
X-Accent-Convention: cx ux
Date: Sun, 14 Nov 93 08:51:26 -0800
From: Don Harlow
Some long time ago, someone in Conlang raised the question of
linguist Andre Martinet's role in the development of the Gode/
IALA Interlingua in the late forties. I referred to a quote,
found in Waringhien's _Lingvo kaj Vivo_, from Martinet which
indicated that he had very little if any part in Interlingua's
development, and was quickly advised by one other conlanger
that Waringhien's comments were not to be trusted (to my
response that Waringhien was simply quoting Martinet, not
voicing his own opinions, I never got a satisfactory reply...).
For those who are interested in such matters, yesterday I
received a review copy of UEA's newly-published Esperanto
edition of a 1987 interview with Martinet. The interviewers
were Francois lo Jacomo and Detlev Blanke. The interview
originally appeared in French in _Zeitschrift fu"r Phonetik,
Sprachewissenschaft und Kommunikationsforschung_ in 1991.
Much of the interview is given over to more general discussions
of linguistics and interlinguistics. Several pages are devoted
to Martinet's favorable opinions about Esperanto and
Esperantists. (For the benefit of those who might be upset
about this, I myself would classify these as _politely_
rather than _enthusiastically_ favorable opinions -- one must,
after all, remember the identities of the interviewers and the
fact that one of them has close ties with Martinet.)
However, Martinet does refer to his period at IALA, and
explains why he resigned. He was, indeed, not enamored of
the language being developed by Gode and his clique of
"linguists of German origin," and suggests that had he
stayed at his post for two months longer than he did,
Interlingua might never have seen the light of day. But
his reasons for leaving had nothing to do with any
linguistic disagreements he might have had with the staff:
"From the moment when I learned from Mrs. Morris's son that
after the lady disappeared the affair would continue at
most one more year until complete liquidation, and knowing
that Mrs. Morris's health was continuing to deteriorate and
that she would soon disappear, I started thinking that going
on wasn't worth the effort. The money that was not coming
directly from Mrs. Morris was coming from people who liked
'that likeable Alice'; after her disappearance those people
would have done absolutely nothing." Which, in fact, was
just what ultimately happened.
"Pri kelkaj problemoj de interlingvistiko: Intervjuo kun la
franca lingvisto Andre' Martinet." Rotterdam: UEA, 1993
[Esperanto-Dokumento 31E], 19pp. Price: 4,80 gld + SH.
Don Harlow donh@netcom.com
Esperanto League (Info only) (800)828-5944 or elna@netcom.com
Turnig^as la Rado de la Tempo,
kaj postlasas multajn vojkadavretojn. (Lau^ Robert Jordan)
>From 71174.2735@compuserve.com Sun Nov 14 19:30:15 1993
Date: 14 Nov 93 13:26:31 EST
From: Rick Harrison <71174.2735@compuserve.com>
To:
Subject: Sapir-Whorf believer gets press
Message-Id: <931114182630_71174.2735_DHQ61-1@CompuServe.COM>
Believers in the Sapir-Whorf hypothesis will get a kick out of this
article. It's from a broadcast trade magazine called _Radio-TV
Interview Report._ I present for discussion excerpts from the
article followed by my opinion.
***
Understanding the Amish
Taking a trip through Amish country is like taking a step back in
time. Horse-drawn carriages, men working in the fields and women
walking to market with children in tow are not uncommon... Comforts
that most of us take for granted, like television and automobiles,
are foreign to the simple lifestyle of the Amish...
Also uncommon to these people is violent crime. Dr Janet Byron
Anderson, language and linguistics expert and author of AMISH
WORD WISDOM, believes the key to the lack of conflict among the
Amish is their ability to communicate.
Dr Anderson will explain that the Amish, through their use of language,
minimize disputes by choosing their words carefully and placing meaning
in everything they say. The Amish stay away from exaggerated statements
and don't carelessly throw words around...
Dr Anderson writes and speaks on a variety of linguistic topics and
currently is working on a new project emphasizing how words, when
used improperly, can discourage individuals from working up to their
potential.
availability: Ohio, and nationwide via telephone
contact: Janet Byron Anderson, 212-333-5782
***
Ahem, aren't we forgetting something rather important here -- the Amish
are a deeply religious people, i.e. a folk who actually try to live
according to the teachings of their religion, rather than only paying
lip service to their scriptures as most people do. Maybe this has as
much as, or more to do with the lack of crime (both violent and non-
violent crime) in Amish communities. This seems to be another case of
Sapir-Whorf believers overlooking the obvious as they attempt to cram
reality into the contorted container which is their hypothesis.
By the way, I logged onto the Books in Print database and was unable to
find an entry for any publication entitled "Amish Word Wisdom."
---
Rick Harrison, editor, Journal of Planned Languages
71174.2735@compuserve.com hrick@world.std.com
Box 54-7014, Orlando FL 32854 USA
>From 71174.2735@compuserve.com Sun Nov 14 19:33:13 1993
Date: 14 Nov 93 13:29:23 EST
From: Rick Harrison <71174.2735@compuserve.com>
To:
Subject: surplus conlang concepts
Message-Id: <931114182922_71174.2735_DHQ61-2@CompuServe.COM>
Here are some ideas I've had for language projects. I don't know
if I will ever get around to making them into full-fledged projects,
so I now offer them to an uncaring world in outline form.
1. Simplified Italian
Actually, I suppose this has been proposed before. Many conlangs
brag that they "sound like Italian"; if this is a virtue, why not
take it to its logical extreme? Italian, being a direct descendant
of Latin, contains many root-words that are recognizable to speakers
of most European languages. The advantages of basing a conlang almost
entirely on one natlang are 1) a user can predict what the word for
any given concept is going to be (which is not possible with
a posteriori projects that take words from a variety of languages);
and 2) users can take advantage of the already-existing supply of
Italian-English, Italian-Chinese, Italian-whatever dictionaries.
2. the Brief language
A mixed vocabulary (a priori and a posteriori) designed so that every
morpheme can be written with two characters. For example, if the
English word "thing" were adopted into the vocabulary, it would be
written as the Greek letter theta, followed by an "i" with a tilde
(~) over it; the tilde represents the consonant -ng. Morphemes would
have the structure (C) V (ng). 30 consonants and 15 to 20 vowels
might generate a sufficient vocabulary and yet remain within the
realm of what humans can reasonably be expected to learn to pronounce.
Disadvantages to this scheme include the typographical difficulties
and the argument that some of the phonemes would not be sufficiently
distinct.
3. Basic Chinese
Similar to Ogden's Basic English, but this would be a mostly-written
(seldom spoken) project using less than 1000 Chinese characters.
I would, as much as possible, limit the characters chosen to those
which have the same meaning in Chinese and Japanese, and those which
do not have 'simplified' variants promulgated by the PRC government.
I would also, as much as possible, select characters so that the
number of homophones (as they are pronounced in Mandarin) would be
minimized. Unlike Ogden, I would discourage idiomatic usages and
try to weed out some irregularities. The Chinese character set is
already a successful pasigraphy of sorts, recognized by speakers of
different dialects; perhaps it would be a good basis for an auxlang
project of this type.
4. Esperanto reform project
I know, there have been hundreds of these already, and the last thing
the world needs is another one. So here's mine. Note that all of my
proposed reforms are simplifications of sorts.
The first thing I would do is discard flexion of adjectives; all
adjectives would end with -a, none of this -aj/-an/-ajn stuff.
Next I would simplify the verb conjugation, doing away with
mandatory tense inflection, and eliminating the requirement that
tense be indicated in the passive and active participles. Also,
it has always seemed inconsistent to me that E-o's -anta/-ante/-anto
series ends with an agent-noun; if the -a/-e/-o endings were
consistent in this series with their uses elsewhere in the language,
-anto would logically be interpreted as a sort of gerund (corresponding
to what is now expressed by -ado). So, my verb conjugation would
look something like this:
indicative: -i
imperative/hortative/optative: -u
conditional: -us
passive participle: -ita, -ito
active participle: -anda, -ando
agent-noun: -ador
Nouns would have no flexion to indicate case. This allows us to
restore the final "n" to a lot of nouns which have been made less
recognizable to due its loss; nacio -> nacion. The superfluous
final -o would be dropped from most or all nouns: birdo -> bird,
molekulo -> molekul. Plural formed by adding -(o)s.
Personally I would also like to see some changes in orthography
(eks- becoming ex-, and eliminating those circumflexed consonants)
but I think it would be impossible to get 2 or more people to agree
on exactly how such changes should be implemented.
---
Rick Harrison, editor, Journal of Planned Languages
71174.2735@compuserve.com hrick@world.std.com
Box 54-7014, Orlando FL 32854 USA
>From EZ-as-pi@cup.portal.com Sun Nov 14 21:50:20 1993
To: EZ-as-pi@cup.portal.com, conlang@diku.dk
From: EZ-as-pi@cup.portal.com
Subject: Re: Andre' Martinet
Lines: 7
Date: Sun, 14 Nov 93 12:50:12 PST
Message-Id: <9311141250.2.10645@cup.portal.com>
X-Origin: The Portal System (TM)
Don Harlow's comments seem to make it
clear that Martinet's problems with
IALA were political, and not linguistic
in nature. So I think it is fair to
continue to list Martinet as a linguist
involved in the process of conlang
creation (specifically Interlingua).
>From donh@netcom.com Mon Nov 15 01:24:11 1993
Message-Id: <199311150024.QAA17577@mail.netcom.com>
To: conlang@diku.dk
Cc: donh@netcom.com, donh@netcom.com
Subject: Re: Andre' Martinet
In-Reply-To: Your message of Sun, 14 Nov 93 22:29:18 +0100.
<9311141250.2.10645@cup.portal.com>
Date: Sun, 14 Nov 93 16:24:45 -0800
From: Don Harlow
> Don Harlow's comments seem to make it
> clear that Martinet's problems with
> IALA were political, and not linguistic
> in nature. So I think it is fair to
> continue to list Martinet as a linguist
> involved in the process of conlang
> creation (specifically Interlingua).
>
_Could you state your opinion about IALA's activity during its last phase,
when you were working in it as language director?_
Martinet: I think that this matter is very well summed up in Detlev
Blanke's book [_Internationale Plansprache_]. Let me say more exactly
that, when I came to IALA, there existed quite a large [_ampleksa_]
team under Gode's direction; it consisted of linguists of German origin
who had as a principle that extracting an auxiliary language would
lead to the working out of a Romance language, of some common Latin of
the fifth century. To give scientific character to this activity, those
philologists-Romance linguists [_latinidistoj_] took steps to go backwards
into the past to the moment when it was possible to rediscover a form
identical for Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, French and Romanian. Their
idea, in fact, consisted of the following: to destroy Franco-English
hegemony to the profit of the southern Romance languages; because those
who had earlier created languages such as Occidental, Novial et al. had
too naturally thought: "If a word exists in French and English, it
must be a good candidate."
When I arrived, I began to study the problem from a different viewpoint.
The traditional viewpoint of the naturalists, along the line of Edgar
de Wahl, creator of Occidental, consisted in the idea that a simple
structure should be combined with maximum internationality. What to
do about _re'diger_-_re'daction_? These were the central problems which
were to be worked out. Few people knew that in the moment when I
resigned Gode would immediately do the same. Seeing my departure as a
chance to bring about the triumph of his viewpoint, he gave up on the
idea of resigning himself [_rezignis pri sia eksig^o_]. If I had
resigned two months later, the situation would apparently have been
completely changed.
_From a linguistic viewpoint, how do you judge the system Interlingua
that Gode proposed?_
Martinet: In that "naturalistic" direction, I prefer a very naturalistic
naturalism, such as Latino sine flexione, with relatively easily
applicable rules, removing the morphological complications of Latin.
_Did you know about the recent Interlingua congress that took place in
August, 1987, a few kilometers from here, in the E'cole Centrale de
Cha^tennay-Malabry?_
Martinet: No, I didn't know about it at all. It is well know that I am
not very favorable to that. I don't think that there was any enmity
between Gode and me, but, simply, his group was a very autonomous
unit. Although I was "director," I had few close collaborators.
[From the work quoted in the previous message, pp. 13-14. I think Martinet
satisfactorily answers the comment above.]
Don Harlow donh@netcom.com
Esperanto League (Info only) (800)828-5944 or elna@netcom.com
Turnig^as la Rado de la Tempo,
kaj postlasas multajn vojkadavretojn. (Lau^ Robert Jordan)
>From EZ-as-pi@cup.portal.com Mon Nov 15 01:58:42 1993
To: EZ-as-pi@cup.portal.com, conlang@diku.dk
From: EZ-as-pi@cup.portal.com
Subject: Re: surplus conlang concepts
Lines: 94
Date: Sun, 14 Nov 93 16:58:18 PST
Message-Id: <9311141658.3.12214@cup.portal.com>
X-Origin: The Portal System (TM)
Rick Harrison:
>4. Esperanto reform project
> I know, there have been hundreds of these already, and the last thing
> the world needs is another one. So here's mine. Note that all of my
> proposed reforms are simplifications of sorts.
> The first thing I would do is discard flexion of adjectives; all
> adjectives would end with -a, none of this -aj/-an/-ajn stuff.
Already proposed in Ido; perfectly in
accord with my own ideas. Good idea.
> Next I would simplify the verb conjugation, doing away with
> mandatory tense inflection, and eliminating the requirement that
> tense be indicated in the passive and active participles. Also,
Making tense optional is not something
I've ever proposed. But in light of
languages like Chinese, the proposal
has some merit.
> it has always seemed inconsistent to me that E-o's -anta/-ante/-anto
> series ends with an agent-noun; if the -a/-e/-o endings were
> consistent in this series with their uses elsewhere in the language,
> -anto would logically be interpreted as a sort of gerund (corresponding
> to what is now expressed by -ado). So, my verb conjugation would
I don't really agree here. Maybe I'm
wrong, but I thought that from an
adjective X, changing -a to -o means
what nominalizing an adjective means in
(say) German: "one who is X." Then if
"esperanta" means "hoping", "esperanto"
is "one who is hoping" -- i. e. a hoper
(and so the agent-noun fornulation _is_
consistent.)
> look something like this:
> indicative: -i
> imperative/hortative/optative: -u
> conditional: -us
> passive participle: -ita, -ito
> active participle: -anda, -ando
> agent-noun: -ador
I'm not sure about one thing here: the
words used earlier seemed to make tense
_optional_. But the paradigm here seems
to eliminate tense inflection complete-
ly. That goes beyond what I'd hope to
see.
> Nouns would have no flexion to indicate case.
As you might guess from my own posts,
fully in accord with my own ideas.
> ... This allows us to
> restore the final "n" to a lot of nouns which have been made less
> recognizable to due its loss; nacio -> nacion. The superfluous
> final -o would be dropped from most or all nouns: birdo -> bird,
> molekulo -> molekul. Plural formed by adding -(o)s.
Here I really disagree with Rick. I
think one thing that Esperanto did
_right_ was to mark nouns, adjectives,
etc. with a part of speech ending. I'd
like to request a reconsideration of
this point.
> Personally I would also like to see some changes in orthography
> (eks- becoming ex-, and eliminating those circumflexed consonants)
Halfway in accord here. I prefer ks to
x, but I've railed at those circum-
flexed consonants. Note that Rick's
proposal accords with Ido here, both
parts of it.
> but I think it would be impossible to get 2 or more people to agree
> on exactly how such changes should be implemented.
Probably so. Here as you've seen I've
accepted more of Rick's proposals than
I've rejected, but still some real
differences remain.
>From j.guy@trl.oz.au Mon Nov 15 02:20:00 1993
From: j.guy@trl.oz.au (Jacques Guy)
Message-Id: <9311150119.AA18486@medici.trl.OZ.AU>
Subject: Re: surplus conlang concepts
To: conlang@diku.dk
Date: Mon, 15 Nov 1993 12:19:32 +1100 (EST)
In-Reply-To: <931114182922_71174.2735_DHQ61-2@CompuServe.COM> from "Rick Harrison" at Nov 14, 93 08:41:57 pm
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Rick Harrison:
>
>
> 1. Simplified Italian
> .....
> The advantages of basing a conlang almost
> entirely on one natlang are 1) a user can predict what the word for
> any given concept is going to be (which is not possible with
> a posteriori projects that take words from a variety of languages);
That is a strong argument. Predictability is what sorely lacks
in Esperanto, and every conlang I know of. Even when you know
that such an artificial language is X% Latin-based, Y% Greek
and Z% Germanic, there is no way of guessing a word, even
if you knew everything about Latin, Greek and Germanic.
> and 2) users can take advantage of the already-existing supply of
> Italian-English, Italian-Chinese, Italian-whatever dictionaries.
Another good point.
>
> 2. the Brief language
> .....
There is such a language, but it has been peddled as a new
kind of shorthand, rather than as an international language
(which it is). It's "Dutton Speedwords". See R.J.G. Dutton's
"Dutton Speedwords" in the Teach Yourself Books series
(ISBN 0-340-05564-2)
> 3. Basic Chinese
>
Another good idea. Perhaps the pronunciation could be
transmogrified, too, basing it on Chinese of the time
of Mencius which, I believe, has been pretty well worked
out (and had only 3 tones)?
>
> 4. Esperanto reform project
>
> I know, there have been hundreds of these already, and the last thing
> the world needs is another one. So here's mine. Note that all of my
> proposed reforms are simplifications of sorts.
Rick is looking for trouble. Esperantists are going to issue a
fatwah against him!
>
> The first thing I would do is discard flexion of adjectives; all
> adjectives would end with -a, none of this -aj/-an/-ajn stuff.
>
Yes.
> [more heinous heresies]
>
Not far enough. There is too little to salvage in Esperanto.
Esperanto sine flexione is what we want, but then, might as
well start from scratch.
>From 71174.2735@compuserve.com Mon Nov 15 07:29:29 1993
Date: 15 Nov 93 01:26:51 EST
From: Rick Harrison <71174.2735@compuserve.com>
To:
Subject: Dutton Speedwords
Message-Id: <931115062651_71174.2735_DHQ36-1@CompuServe.COM>
Jacques Guy:
> See R.J.G. Dutton's "Dutton Speedwords" in the Teach
> Yourself Books series (ISBN 0-340-05564-2)
I wish I _could_ see this book! It's not listed in Books in Print,
and in a search of the OCLC computer net I've been unable to find
any library in North America that has a copy of it. Anyone have
any clues where I might find a copy to buy, borrow or bootleg?
---
Rick Harrison, editor, Journal of Planned Languages
71174.2735@compuserve.com hrick@world.std.com
Box 54-7014, Orlando FL 32854 USA
>From jrk@sys.uea.ac.uk Mon Nov 15 14:23:09 1993
Date: Mon, 15 Nov 93 13:26:43 GMT
Message-Id: <12778.9311151326@s5.sys.uea.ac.uk>
Received: from [139.222.4.119] (jrk.sys.uea.ac.uk) by s5.sys.uea.ac.uk; Mon, 15 Nov 93 13:26:44 GMT
X-Sender: jrk@139.222.1.5
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
To: conlang@diku.dk
From: jrk@sys.uea.ac.uk (Richard Kennaway)
Subject: Re: Dutton Speedwords
Rick Harrison writes:
>I wish I _could_ see this book! It's not listed in Books in Print,
I have it, and a Speedwords-English Dictionary. A year or two ago I sent a
photocopy of both books to someone in the US in return for an equally
illegitimate bootlegged copy of other conlang materials. Unfortunately,
I've forgotten who I sent them to, other than that it was a well-known
participant on conlang. (A name bubbles up from the depths...Ronald
Hale-Evans?) Perhaps he could arrange something with you, if he's still
here? Failing that, I'd be willing to make another copy, in return for
something similar.
I'd like to know what became of Speedwords, as apart from the dictionary,
all the Speedwords publications listed in TYDS were no longer available
when I tried to get them twenty years ago. I don't recall exactly the
letter I received in reply, but it appeared that Reginald Dutton was dead
then, and his sister or widow was handling orders while stocks lasted.
Presumably it died soon after the inventor.
-- ____
Richard Kennaway __\_ / School of Information Systems
Internet: jrk@sys.uea.ac.uk \ X/ University of East Anglia
uucp: ...mcsun!ukc!uea-sys!jrk \/ Norwich NR4 7TJ, U.K.
>From KNAPPEN@VKPMZD.kph.Uni-Mainz.DE Mon Nov 15 14:42:26 1993
Date: Mon, 15 Nov 1993 14:39 +0200
From: KNAPPEN@VKPMZD.kph.Uni-Mainz.DE
Subject: Simplified inglis
To: conlang@diku.dk
Message-Id: <01H5CJED7TXC0000WG@VzdmzA.ZDV.Uni-Mainz.DE>
X-Envelope-To: conlang@diku.dk
X-Vms-To: GATEWAY"conlang@diku.dk"
FYI:
Having chosen English as the preferred language in the EEC, the European
Parliament has commissioned a feasability study in ways of improving
efficiency in communications between Government departments.
European officials have often pointed out that English spelling is
unnecessary difficult; for example: cough, plough, rough, through and
thorough. What is clearly needed is a phased programme of changes to iron
out these anomalies. The programme would, of course, be administered by a
committee staff at top level by participating nations.
In the first year, for example, the committee would suggest using 's'
instead of the soft 'c'. Sertainly, sivil servants in all sities would
resieve this news with joy. Then the hard 'c' could be replaced by 'k'
sinse both letters are pronounsed alike. Not only would this klear up
konfusion in the minds of klerikal workers, but typewriters kould be made
with one less letter.
There would be growing enthousiasm when in the sekond year, it was anounsed
that the troublesome 'ph' would henseforth be written 'f'. This would make
words like 'fotograf' twenty per sent shorter in print.
In the third year, publik akseptanse of the new spelling kan be expekted to
reash the stage where more komplikated shanges are possible. Governments
would enkourage the removal of double letters which have always been a
deterent to akurate speling.
We would al agre that the horible mes of silent 'e's in the languag is
disgrasful. Therefor we kould drop thes and kontinu to read and writ as
though nothing had hapend. By this tim it would be four years sins the skem
began and peopl would be reseptive to steps sutsh as replasing 'th' by 'z'.
Perhaps zen ze funktion of 'w' kould be taken on by 'v', vitsh is, after
al, half a 'w'. Shortly after zis, ze unesesary 'o kould be dropd from
words kontaining 'ou'. Similar arguments vud of kors be aplid to ozer
kombinations of leters.
Kontinuing zis proses yer after yer, ve vud eventuli hav a reli sensibl
riten styl. After tventi yers zer vud be no mor trubls, difikultis and
evrivun vud fin it ezi tu understand ech ozer. Ze drems of the Guvermnt vud
finali hav kum tru.
------- End of Forwarded Message
>From pnh@osf.org Mon Nov 15 16:45:19 1993
Message-Id: <9311151544.AA00784@postman.osf.org>
To: conlang@diku.dk
Cc: pnh@osf.org
Subject: Re: Dutton Speedwords
Date: Mon, 15 Nov 1993 10:44:50 -0500
From: Peter Harbo
I first read about this years ago in Hogben's "Interglossa" and have looked
for it ever since, also to no avail. I would be very interested in getting
a copy as well.
>From donh@netcom.com Mon Nov 15 17:01:28 1993
Message-Id: <199311151601.IAA20788@mail.netcom.com>
To: conlang@diku.dk
Cc: donh@netcom.com, donh@netcom.com
Subject: Re: Simplified inglis
Date: Mon, 15 Nov 93 08:01:46 -0800
From: Don Harlow
> FYI:
>
> Having chosen English as the preferred language in the EEC, the European
> Parliament has commissioned a feasability study in ways of improving
> efficiency in communications between Government departments.
This all sounds very familiar to me. May I recommend the short "science-
fiction" story "Meihem in ce Klasrum." I don't remember who the author
was (the name "Dolton" comes to mind, but the first syllable suggests
that this may be more a judgement than an actual memory), but it was
published in 1948 and included in what passed in those days as a "Year's
Best" anthology. The story was, in fact, a demonstration of a procedure
for "simplifying" English spelling, carried _ad absurdum_ as in the
message posted.
Don Harlow donh@netcom.com
Esperanto League (Info only) (800)828-5944 or elna@netcom.com
Turnig^as la Rado de la Tempo,
kaj postlasas multajn vojkadavretojn. (Lau^ Robert Jordan)
>From jim@mycroft.rand.org Mon Nov 15 18:20:28 1993
Message-Id: <9311151720.AA01087@mycroft.rand.org>
To: conlang@diku.dk
Cc: jim@mycroft.rand.org
Subject: Re: Simplified inglis
From: Jim Gillogly
Date: Mon, 15 Nov 93 09:20:08 PST
Sender: jim@mycroft.rand.org
> KNAPPEN@VKPMZD.kph.Uni-Mainz.DE writes:
> Ze drems of the Guvermnt vud finali hav kum tru.
Wasn't this written by Mark Twain?
Jim Gillogly
Mersday, 25 Blotmath S.R. 1993, 17:19
>From jrk@sys.uea.ac.uk Mon Nov 15 18:22:19 1993
Date: Mon, 15 Nov 93 17:25:56 GMT
Message-Id: <20552.9311151725@s5.sys.uea.ac.uk>
X-Sender: jrk@139.222.1.5
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
To: conlang@diku.dk
From: jrk@sys.uea.ac.uk (Richard Kennaway)
Subject: Re: Simplified inglis
Qe seim pis apird -- er, the same piece appeared a few days ago on an
unrelated mailing list, and someone identified the basic idea as due to
Mark Twain. I've seen several other versions as well.
-- ____
Richard Kennaway __\_ / School of Information Systems
Internet: jrk@sys.uea.ac.uk \ X/ University of East Anglia
uucp: ...mcsun!ukc!uea-sys!jrk \/ Norwich NR4 7TJ, U.K.
>From martyb@vnet.IBM.COM Mon Nov 15 18:51:48 1993
Message-Id: <9311151751.AA02956@odin.diku.dk>
Date: Mon, 15 Nov 93 10:46:25 MST
From: "Martin R. Bartels"
To: conlang@diku.dk
Subject: Re: Simplified English
Along with Don Harlow, I've seen some of this too, although I've seen
it in several forms, intended to make English "look" (by its appearance
in type or writting) like German, French, or Dutch (I've seen versions
of all three).
The theme is always the same, state a change, and start using it
thereafter....
---Marty
>From 71174.2735@compuserve.com Mon Nov 15 19:30:23 1993
Date: 15 Nov 93 13:08:20 EST
From: Rick Harrison <71174.2735@compuserve.com>
To:
Subject: re: Dutton Speedwords
Message-Id: <931115180819_71174.2735_DHQ104-2@CompuServe.COM>
Hi gang! I'm negotiating with Ronald Hale-Evans for copies of the
Speedwords materials. When I obtain them, I'll post a detailed
description of the project to this list.
---
Rick Harrison, editor, Journal of Planned Languages
71174.2735@compuserve.com hrick@world.std.com
Box 54-7014, Orlando FL 32854 USA
>From shoulson@ctr.columbia.edu Mon Nov 15 20:22:55 1993
From: shoulson@ctr.columbia.edu (Mark E. Shoulson)
Date: Mon, 15 Nov 1993 14:22:40 -0500
Message-Id: <199311151922.OAA01925@startide.ctr.columbia.edu>
To: conlang@diku.dk
Subject: Mark Twain's English proposal
I've posted this here before; this is the one I heard was from Mark Twain.
It's kind of nice in that you can actually hear his accent in it:
A Plan for the Improvement of English Spelling
by Mark Twain
For example, in Year 1 that useless letter "c" would be dropped
to be replased either by "k" or "s", and likewise "x" would no longer
be part of the alphabet. The only kase in which "c" would be retained
would be the "ch" formation, which will be dealt with later. Year 2
might reform "w" spelling, so that "which" and "one" would take the
same konsonant, wile Year 3 might well abolish "y" replasing it with
"i" and Iear 4 might fiks the "g/j" anomali wonse and for all.
Jenerally, then, the improvement would kontinue iear bai iear
with Iear 5 doing awai with useless double konsonants, and Iears 6-12
or so modifaiing vowlz and the rimeining voist and unvoist konsonants.
Bai Iear 15 or sou, it wud fainali bi posibl tu meik ius ov thi
ridandant letez "c", "y" and "x" -- bai now jast a memori in the maindz
ov ould doderez -- tu riplais "ch", "sh", and "th" rispektivli.
Fainali, xen, aafte sam 20 iers ov orxogrefkl riform, wi wud
hev a lojikl, kohirnt speling in ius xrewawt xe Ingliy-spiking werld.
Enjoy.
~mark
>From lojbab@access.digex.net Mon Nov 15 21:57:04 1993
From: Logical Language Group
Message-Id: <199311152056.AA19884@access.digex.net>
Subject: Jaan Kau'nz Riiformd 'Mer'kn Speli(ng)
To: conlang@diku.dk
Date: Mon, 15 Nov 1993 15:56:32 -0500 (EST)
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL22]
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Or, undoing the Great Vowel Shift. Well, I invented this in my first wave
of conlang-enthusiasm, back when I read Pei and alla those other guys in
high school. Now, of course, I realize that there are lots and lots of
other dialects of English for which this system would be hopeless, but
here it is anyway, from my fingers to the conlang archives.
First, let us reform the consonants. The letters "b", "d", "f", "g", "h"
"j", "k", "l", "m", "n", "p", "r", "s", "t", "v", "w", "y", "z" are invariably
used to represent the usual corresponding values: "g" is always a stop,
"s" is always unvoiced. This produces such wordz az "juj" and "fotograf".
The letter "c" is replased by "s" or "k" az appropriate, and "qu" bekomez
"kw" kwikly and eazily. Likewize, "x" bekomez "ks" or sometimez "gz".
The now-free letterz "c", "x", "q" are uzed to reprezent the "ch" ov "church",
the "sh" ov "shirt", and the IPA sound /Z/ az in "Asia" wic iz now "Aqa".
The remaining konsonant fonemes /T/ (th az in thin), /D/ (th az in this
and /N/ (ng az in sing) kan be replased by the "thorn", "eth", and "eng"
karakterz if you have them, or else by "th", "dh", and "ng" if nesessary.
Doubled konsonants are dropet, ov kourse.
Vowelz are muc harder. My dialekt haz 11, egzemplified by "hat", "bed", "sit",
"law", "foot", "fadher", "say", "see", "sow", "sue", and dhe xva vowel
in dhe first sylable ov "about". Dhese are reprezented by dhe symbolz
"a", "e", "i", "o", "u", "aa", "ee", "ii", "oo", "uu", and "'" (dhe
apostrofe) respektively. Dhere are also difthongz in "bye", "boy", and "cow"
riten "ai", "oi", "au" respektively. Yuuz'ng dhiiz vau'l ceenj'z riilii
olt'rz dh' 'piir'ns 'v Ingglix. Noot dhat dh' "ngg" in dh' priivii's
sent'nz repriizents 'n "eng" faalood bai ' "g". Noot olsoo dhat dhii
indef'n't aart'k'l kan s'mtaimz j'st bii "'".
W'n f'rdh'r ruul 'lauz dhii "'" tuu bii draapt nekst tuu 'n "m", "n", "r", "l"
or "eng" kar'kt'r. Dhis 'lauz dh langw'j tuu bii rittn mor kwiklii, az
menii kaamn wrdz laik "dh'" kan nau 'piir az j'st "dh". (Mai dai'lekt
d'znt hav ' foniimic d'stinkxn biitwiin dh vaulz v "dh'" nd "b't".)
Wel, Ai hoop Ai hav meed noo er'rz in mai 'kaunt v mai speling.
If Ai hav, fiil frii tuu fleem 'wee ('suumng yuu hav gaatn dhis faar).
--
John Cowan sharing account for now
e'osai ko sarji la lojban.
>From j.guy@trl.oz.au Tue Nov 16 00:43:31 1993
From: j.guy@trl.oz.au (Jacques Guy)
Message-Id: <9311152343.AA19721@medici.trl.OZ.AU>
Subject: Re: Dutton Speedwords
To: conlang@diku.dk
Date: Tue, 16 Nov 1993 10:43:02 +1100 (EST)
In-Reply-To: <931115062651_71174.2735_DHQ36-1@CompuServe.COM> from "Rick Harrison" at Nov 15, 93 08:23:35 am
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL20]
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> I wish I _could_ see this book! It's not listed in Books in Print,
Seems as if I had The Rarest Book In Ye Worlde on my shelves!
Since it seems to have been out of print for years (my edition
says it harks back from 1974), I do not see why a bit of
ph*t*c*p*ing should be objected to -- alternatively I might
auction it and retire in luxury on the proceeds $-)
However, for the terminally honest, on p.158 of this solid-gold
book I spy with my little eye:
... The books are obtainable from Miss E.J. Dutton, P.O Box 30,
Norwich, NOR 68H, England
Dutton One-Week Shorthand (complete text-book) 16p. (pence, not pages!)
Key to Text-Book, 5p. Postage 3p extra for the two books.
Dutton Shorthand Dictionary of 13,000 Outlines, 16p. Postage 3p extra.
Dutton Shorthand Phrase Book (2,000 useful phrases), 10 p. Postage 3p
extra.
and more. Those were the days when a pound was worth a pound and
a p a p!
>From C.J.Fine@bradford.ac.uk Tue Nov 16 11:22:14 1993
Date: Tue, 16 Nov 1993 10:22:04 GMT
Message-Id: <14507.199311161022@discovery.brad.ac.uk>
From: Colin Fine
To: conlang@diku.dk
Subject: Re: Latine sine Flexione (was:Simplified English)
++++>
Along with Don Harlow, I've seen some of this too, although I've seen
it in several forms, intended to make English "look" (by its appearance
in type or writting) like German, French, or Dutch (I've seen versions
of all three).
The theme is always the same, state a change, and start using it
thereafter....
>+++++
Nobody has referred so far to the real life example of this:
(This is from memory so some of the facts may be a trifle
awry:)
In 1911 Mario Pei made a speech to the Academy of Sciences of
some city in Italy in which he introduced and argued for his
Interlingua (= Latine sine Flexione, not the later Interlingua).
As was normal, he began in Latin, but apparently as he discussed
each 'simplification' he adopted, and ended the speech in LsF.
All of which goes to prove nothing, of course, because people who
understand spoken Latin are not going to have much difficulty with
LsF.
Colin Fine
>From C.J.Fine@bradford.ac.uk Tue Nov 16 11:32:05 1993
Date: Tue, 16 Nov 1993 10:31:39 GMT
Message-Id: <15855.199311161031@discovery.brad.ac.uk>
From: Colin Fine
To: conlang@diku.dk
Subject: Re: Jaan Kau'nz Riiformd 'Mer'kn Speli(ng)
Az s^mbodi sed 'baut Maak Tweins piis, riiding Jon Kau'nz tekst givs
' splendid sens v wot hiz spiic saundz laik. Dh problm, z =lwez, iz
dht mai spiic saundz kwait difrnt, s'u ai rait it difrntli
Kolin Fain
>From KNAPPEN@VKPMZD.kph.Uni-Mainz.DE Tue Nov 16 12:27:10 1993
Date: Mon, 15 Nov 1993 20:12 +0200
From: KNAPPEN@VKPMZD.kph.Uni-Mainz.DE
Subject: Re: Simplified inglis
To: conlang@diku.dk
Message-Id: <01H5CV1Z4ZO0000272@VzdmzA.ZDV.Uni-Mainz.DE>
X-Envelope-To: conlang@diku.dk
X-Vms-To: VZDMZA::IN%"conlang@diku.dk"
It is like a virus, isn't it?
By the way, similar texts exist for german and are unearthed whenever a
debate over spelling reform starts. They usually go to the abolition of
all vowels and then of script at all.
--J"org Knappen.
>From ucleaar@ucl.ac.uk Wed Nov 17 17:23:22 1993
From: ucleaar
Message-Id: <28814.9311171622@link-1.ts.bcc.ac.uk>
To: conlang@diku.dk
Subject: Re: Jaan Kau'nz Riiformd 'Mer'kn Speli(ng)
Date: Wed, 17 Nov 93 16:22:46 +0000
Ou uot fun! Laic Jon Cauan, ai tuu aidld auei on inventing
olternativ orhtografiz meni aurz hdt oot properli t hav
biin spent on mor profitabil activitiz. In ordr hdt mai
orhtografi mait hav sum cjans v sucses in bcuming hd norm
for inglisj, ai fansid maiself Cing Jeimz I, so hdt ai cud
impouz hd speling upon hd greit baibl transleisjn project.
Sutj vaniti!
A noutabil aspect v mai orhtografi hdt diferz from moust uhdr
propousalz for inglisj speling iz hdt hd speling iz not a
feihtful miror v hd pronunsieisjn, but, rahdr, atemptz t
(i) aprocsimeit tu a reinj v diferent acsentz, and (ii)
reflect hd sistematisiti v hd inglisj lecsicon, incluuding
and alauing for, az far az posibil, sutj htingz az alomorfi
and recognaizabiliti v etimologji.
Laic ool "foux de langage", ai rizibli but sinsiirli biliiv
mai sciim iz supiirior tu bouht standrd speling and ool uhdr
reform propouzalz!
-----
And
>From jrk@sys.uea.ac.uk Wed Nov 17 18:39:32 1993
Date: Wed, 17 Nov 93 17:42:39 GMT
Message-Id: <22480.9311171742@s5.sys.uea.ac.uk>
X-Sender: jrk@139.222.1.5
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
To: conlang@diku.dk
From: jrk@sys.uea.ac.uk (Richard Kennaway)
Subject: Re: Jaan Kau'nz Riiformd 'Mer'kn Speli(ng)
ai faind ai haf tu rid thiz alaud, or v'v'dl' 'maj'n dhem red alaud, 'n
ordr tu andrstand dhem. 'z dh's diu mirl' tu anfam'liar'ti, or iz dh'
repr'zenteic'n bai speling ov morfolodji az 'mport'nt az dh' repr'zenteic'n
ov saund? uud a l'ngu'st faind 'ngl'sh r'tn u'th IPA az 'bskiur?
-- ____
Richard Kennaway __\_ / School of Information Systems
Internet: jrk@sys.uea.ac.uk \ X/ University of East Anglia
uucp: ...mcsun!ukc!uea-sys!jrk \/ Norwich NR4 7TJ, U.K.
>From lojbab@access.digex.net Wed Nov 17 20:35:39 1993
From: Logical Language Group
Message-Id: <199311171935.AA08663@access.digex.net>
Subject: Re: Jaan Kau'nz Riiformd 'Mer'kn Speli(ng)
To: conlang@diku.dk
Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1993 14:35:06 -0500 (EST)
Cc: lojbab@access.digex.net (Logical Language Group)
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Its intristing tuu mii dht dh piipl huu hav r'spaand'd tuu mai mes'j hav booth
bin Brit'x, d'spait dh kliir ind'keexn "'Mer'kn Speling" in dh hedr.
Wai iz dhis? Aar 'dhr 'Mer'knz simplii les 'traktd tuu smthing dht
repriizents (moor r les) dh wee dhee 'lredii tok?
Hmmm. Withaut ceking klooslii, Ai wndr if singgl vau'lz kan evr 'piir at
dhii end v wrdz. If naat, dhen dbl vau'lz kud bii simplifaid. Ai wil
adaapt dhis riiform.
Ricrd Ken'wee (at liist dhat iz hau >Ai< wd see hiz neem) asks wedhr dh
dif'kltii in riidng dhis speling iz du tu (i.e. "duu tuu") miir 'nfamiliar'ti.
Aim naat cuur, bt Ai s'spekt naat. Az ' tiineejr, Ai gaat kwait fluu'nt
in riidng dhis speling nd iivn lrnd ' fyu wrds soo dht Ai kd rait m
autoomatikli. Noot dht sm d'stingkcnz aar meed in dhis speling dht
knvencnl speling d'znt: "dhat" iz dh dmaanstr'tiv, weeraz "dht" iz
dh kloz intr'duucr; dheer aar tu def'nit aart'klz "dh" nd "dhi" par'lelng
dh indefnits "'" nd "'n"; nd "m" iz dvaid'd frm "dhem".
(Histaarikli, "m" d'sendz frm Oold Ingglix "hem"; "dhem" iz ' Skand'neevii'n
baaroo'ng.)
Ai s'poz dhis speling kd olso yuuz sm ind'keexn v stres, but iin'fs iin'f.
Ai hav spookn.
--
John Cowan sharing account for now
e'osai ko sarji la lojban.
>From ponds!squink!biljir@dg-rtp.dg.com Thu Nov 18 03:27:14 1993
Date: Wed, 17 Nov 93 19:04:34 EST
Message-Id: <9311180004.AA00olj@squink.UUCP>
From: ponds!squink!biljir@dg-rtp.dg.com (Alan Beale)
To: conlang@diku.dk
Subject: Re: Jaan Kau'nz Riiformd 'Mer'kn Speli(ng)
Hello , in <28814.9311171622@link-1.ts.bcc.ac.uk> on Nov 17 you wrote:
> A noutabil aspect v mai orhtografi hdt diferz from moust uhdr
> propousalz for inglisj speling iz hdt hd speling iz not a
> feihtful miror v hd pronunsieisjn, but, rahdr, atemptz t
> (i) aprocsimeit tu a reinj v diferent acsentz, and (ii)
> reflect hd sistematisiti v hd inglisj lecsicon, incluuding
> and alauing for, az far az posibil, sutj htingz az alomorfi
> and recognaizabiliti v etimologji.
Ie tue hav divelupd a riformd A'merikn spel'nq. But mien faylz liek
most evreewn els'z bie naht a'just'nq t difur'nt aksentz or riflekt'nq
et'mahl'jee. (Dh vurcue uv mie sistm, if it haz wun, iz dhat it wurkz
hard at be'nq intelij'bl t norml Inglix reedurz. Yue kan juj for
yurselvz wedhur it wurkz hard inuf!)
>
> Laic ool "foux de langage", ai rizibli but sinsiirli biliiv
> mai sciim iz supiirior tu bouht standrd speling and ool uhdr
> reform propouzalz!
>
Ie wundur if yue kood xer dh meth'dz yue yuezd t a'ceev (or a'tempt
t a'ceev) yur golz. Iem veree kyueree's t no if yur meth'dz kood
bee yuezd t impruev mie on orthahgr'fee az wel, so dhat dhen Ie tue
kood klaym t hav a sistm "suepiryur t both standurd spel'ng and awl
udhur riform pr'pozlz".
--
Alan Beale ponds!squink!biljir@dg-rtp.dg.com
"when asked what you do for a living, say you laugh for a living." -- Dylan
>From C.J.Fine@bradford.ac.uk Thu Nov 18 11:43:28 1993
Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1993 10:43:16 GMT
Message-Id: <25341.199311181043@discovery.brad.ac.uk>
From: Colin Fine
To: conlang@diku.dk
Subject: Re: ease of reading strange orthographies.
Richard Kennaway asks a good question:
++++>
ai faind ai haf tu rid thiz alaud, or v'v'dl' 'maj'n dhem red alaud, 'n
ordr tu andrstand dhem. 'z dh's diu mirl' tu anfam'liar'ti, or iz dh'
repr'zenteic'n bai speling ov morfolodji az 'mport'nt az dh' repr'zenteic'n
ov saund? uud a l'ngu'st faind 'ngl'sh r'tn u'th IPA az 'bskiur?
>++++
My experience of dabbling in many language, including some with different
scripts (recently, Georgian and Syriac), is that there is a long stage
when I need to vocalise what I am reading in order to understand it. After
a while I start to recognise some words or structures without doing this -
but easily leap to conclusions and misidentify a less familiar form as a
familiar one (or even a familiar one as a different familiar one).
Generalising from this, I believe that the answer to Richard's question is
unfamiliarity, and it would not take very much reading of any particular
orthography before we became able to read it fluently and without
vocalising. Of course if we are being subjected to several different
orthographies, this may be harder.
Other examples which tend to the same conclusion are computer
Esperanto (I am not a fluent E reader, and the 'x' or postposed '^'
always holds me up,but I suspect it does not to people who are used
to seeing it) and And Rosta's variant Lojban orthography, which
I still have to vocalise in order to understand, but I believe I
would come to read readily in time.
Colin Fine
>From ponds!squink!biljir@dg-rtp.dg.com Fri Nov 19 07:00:07 1993
Date: Thu, 18 Nov 93 18:24:08 EST
Message-Id: <9311182324.AA00olz@squink.UUCP>
From: ponds!squink!biljir@dg-rtp.dg.com (Alan Beale)
To: conlang@diku.dk
Subject: A Rozeta tekst for riformd spelinqz
OK, reformed spelling advocates, both announced and lurking, here is an
attempt to provide a Rosetta text for comparison and contrast of all our
schemes. The text is fairly long, since I think a long text gives more
opportunity for individual quirks and flavors to manifest themselves.
However, the lazy or less than terminally enthusiastic could do just the first
two verses, which seem to contain all the standard English phonemes.
The text is given below in Inglix as well as in plaintext to avoid problems
caused by obscurities and/or errors in the Inglix version.
Sad-Eyed Lady of the Lowlands
Bob Dylan
(c) 1966 by Dwarf Music
(copied without permission)
With your mercury mouth in the missionary times,
And your eyes like smoke and your prayers like rhymes,
And your silver cross, and your voice like chimes,
Oh, who among them do they think could bury you?
With your pockets well protected at last,
And your streetcar visions which you place on the grass,
And your flesh like silk, and your face like glass,
Who among them do they think could carry you?
Sad-eyed lady of the lowlands,
Where the sad-eyed prophet says that no man comes,
My warehouse eyes, my Arabian drums,
Should I leave them by your gate,
Or, sad-eyed lady, should I wait?
With your sheets like meadow and your belt like lace,
And your deck of cards missing the jack and the ace,
And your basement clothes and your hollow face,
Who among them can think he could outguess you?
With your silhouette where the sunlight dims
Into your eyes where the moonlight swims,
And your match-book songs and your gypsy hymns,
Who among them would try to impress you?
Sad-eyed lady of the lowlands,
Where the sad-eyed prophet says that no man comes,
My warehouse eyes, my Arabian drums,
Should I leave them by your gate,
Or, sad-eyed lady, should I wait?
The kings of Tyrus with their convict list
Are waiting in line for their geranium kiss,
And you wouldn't know it would happen like this,
But who among them really wants just to kiss you?
With your childhood flames on your midnight rug,
And your Spanish manners and your mother's drugs,
And your cowboy mouth and your curfew plugs,
Who among them do you think could resist you?
Sad-eyed lady of the lowlands,
Where the sad-eyed prophet says that no man comes,
My warehouse eyes, my Arabian drums,
Should I leave them by your gate,
Or, sad-eyed lady, should I wait?
Oh, the farmers and the businessmen, they all did decide
To show you the dead angels that they used to hide.
But why did they pick you to sympathize with their side?
Oh, how could they ever mistake you?
They wished you'd accepted the blame for the farm,
But with the sea at your feet, and the phony false alarm,
And with the child of the hoodlum wrapped up in your arms,
How could they ever, ever persuade you?
Sad-eyed lady of the lowlands,
Where the sad-eyed prophet says that no man comes,
My warehouse eyes, my Arabian drums,
Should I leave them by your gate,
Or, sad-eyed lady, should I wait?
With your sheet-metal memory of Cannery Row,
And your magazine husband who one day just had to go,
And your gentleness now, which you just can't help but show,
Who among them do you think would employ you?
Now you stand with your thief, you're on his parole
With your holy medallion which your fingertips fold,
And your saintlike face and your ghostlike soul,
Oh, who among them do you think could destroy you?
Sad-eyed lady of the lowlands,
Where the sad-eyed prophet says that no man comes,
My warehouse eyes, my Arabian drums,
Should I leave them by your gate,
Or, sad-eyed lady, should I wait?
Sad-Ied Laydee uv dh Lolandz
Bahb Dil'n
(c) 1966 bie Dworf Myuezik
Widh yur murky'ree mowth in dh mix'neree tiemz,
And yur iez liek smok and yur prerz liek riemz,
And yur silvur kraws, and yur voys liek ciemz,
O, hue a'munq dhm due dhay think kood beree yue?
Widh yur pahkitz wel pr'tekt'd at last,
And yur streetkar vijhnz wic yue plays awn dh gras,
And yur flex liek silk, and yur fays liek glas,
Hue a'munq dhm due dhay think kood keree yue?
Sad-ied laydee uv dh lolandz,
Wer dh sad-ied prahfit sez dhat no man kumz,
Mie werhows iez, mie A'rayb'yn drumz,
Xood Ie leev dhm bie yur gayt,
Or, sad-ied laydee, xood Ie wayt?
Widh yur xeetz liek medo and yur belt liek lays,
And yur dek uv kardz misinq dh jak and dh ays,
And yur baysm'nt kloz and yur hahlo fays,
Hu a'munq dhm kan think hee kood owtges yue?
Widh yur sil'wet wer dh sunliet dimz
Intue yur iez wer dh muenliet swimz,
And yur macbook sawnqz and yur jipsee himz,
Hue a'munq dhm wood trie t impres yue?
Sad-ied laydee uv dh lolandz,
Wer dh sad-ied prahfit sez dhat no man kumz,
Mie werhows iez, mie A'rayb'yn drumz,
Xood Ie leev dhm bie yur gayt,
Or, sad-ied laydee, xood Ie wayt?
Dh kinqz uv Tieris widh dher kahnvikt list
Ar waytinq in lien for dher jurayn'ym kis,
And yue woodnt no it wood hapn liek dhis,
But hue a'munq dhm rilee wawntz just t kis yue?
Widh yur cieldhood flaymz awn yur midniet rug,
And yur Spanix manurz and yur mudhur's drugz,
And yur kowboy mowth and yur kurfyue plugz,
Hue a'munq dhm due yue think kood rizist yue?
Sad-ied laydee uv dh lolandz,
Wer dh sad-ied prahfit sez dhat no man kumz,
Mie werhows iez, mie A'rayb'yn drumz,
Xood Ie leev dhm bie yur gayt,
Or, sad-ied laydee, xood Ie wayt?
O, dh farmurz and dh bizn'smen, dhay awl did disied
T xo yue dh ded aynjlz dhat dhay yuesd t hied.
But wie did dhay pik yue t simp'thiez widh dher sied?
O, how kood dhay evur mistayk yue?
Dhay wixd yued aksept'd dh blaym for dh farm,
But widh dh see at yur feet, and dh fonee fawls a'larm,
And widh dh cield uv dh huedl'm rapd up in yur armz,
How kood dhay evur, evur purswayd yue?
Sad-ied laydee uv dh lolandz,
Wer dh sad-ied prahfit sez dhat no man kumz,
Mie werhows iez, mie A'rayb'yn drumz,
Xood Ie leev dhm bie yur gayt,
Or, sad-ied laydee, xood Ie wayt?
Widh yur xeet-metl mem'ree uv Kan'ree Ro,
And yur mag'zeen huzbnd hue wun day just had t go,
And yur jentln's now, wic yue just kant help but xo,
Hue a'munq dhm due yue think wood employ yue?
Now yue stand widh yur theef, yoor awn hiz p'rol
Widh yur holee m'dalyn wic yur fingurtipz fold,
And yur sayntliek fays and yur gostliek sol,
O, hue a'munq dhm due yue think kood distroy yue?
Sad-ied laydee uv dh lolandz,
Wer dh sad-ied prahfit sez dhat no man kumz,
Mie werhows iez, mie A'rayb'yn drumz,
Xood Ie leev dhm bie yur gayt,
Or, sad-ied laydee, xood Ie wayt?
--
Alan Beale ponds!squink!biljir@dg-rtp.dg.com
"when asked what you do for a living, say you laugh for a living." -- Dylan
>From lojbab@access.digex.net Fri Nov 19 17:48:57 1993
From: Logical Language Group
Message-Id: <199311191647.AA22389@access.digex.net>
Subject: Re: A Rozeta tekst for riformd spelinqz
To: conlang@diku.dk
Date: Fri, 19 Nov 1993 11:47:43 -0500 (EST)
Cc: lojbab@access.digex.net (Logical Language Group)
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Length: 1591
> OK, reformed spelling advocates, both announced and lurking, here is an
> attempt to provide a Rosetta text for comparison and contrast of all our
> schemes. The text is fairly long, since I think a long text gives more
> opportunity for individual quirks and flavors to manifest themselves.
So (as Larry Niven once said to me), you're willing to make lots of work
for me, eh?
Sad-Aid Leedi v dh Loolndz
Baab Diln
(c) 1966 bai Dwarf Myuuzik
(kaapiid withaut prmicn)
With yr mrkyuuri mauth in dh micneeri taimz,
Nd yr aiz laik smook nd yr preeyrz laik raimz,
Nd yr silvr cros, nd yr vois laik caimz,
O, hu 'mng dhm du dhe thingk cd b'ri yu?
With yr paak'ts wel pr'tekt'd at last,
Nd yr striitkaar viqns wic yu plees aan dh gras,
Nd yr flec laik silk, nd yr fees laik glas,
Hu 'mng dhm du dhe thingk cd cari yu?
Sad-aid leedi v dh loolandz,
Weer dh sad-aid praaf't sez dht no man kmz,
Mai weerhaus aiz, mai 'reebii'n drmz,
Cd I liiv dhm bai yr geet,
Or, sad-aid leedi, cd Ai weet?
With yr ciits laik medo nd yr belt laik lees,
Nd yr dek v kards misng dh jak nd dh ees,
Nd yr beesmnt kloz nd yr haalo fees,
Hu 'mng dhm cn thingk hi cd autges yu?
With yr siluuet weer dh snlait dimz
Int' yr aiz weer dh muunlait swimz,
Nd yr mac-buk songz nd yr jipsi himz,
Hu 'mng dhm wd trai tu 'mpres yu?
Sad-aid leedi v dh loolandz,
Weer dh sad-aid praaf't sez dht no man kmz,
Mai weerhaus aiz, mai 'reebii'n drumz
Cd Ai liiv dhm bai yr geet,
Or, sad-aid leedi, cd Ai weet?
Well, I guess I'm lazy...
--
John Cowan sharing account for now
e'osai ko sarji la lojban.
>From ucleaar@ucl.ac.uk Fri Nov 19 20:55:28 1993
From: ucleaar
Message-Id: <90664.9311191954@link-1.ts.bcc.ac.uk>
To: conlang@diku.dk
Subject: Re: A Rozeta tekst for riformd spelinqz
Date: Fri, 19 Nov 93 19:54:54 +0000
> OK, reformed spelling advocates, both announced and lurking, here is an
> attempt to provide a Rosetta text for comparison and contrast of all our
> schemes. The text is fairly long, since I think a long text gives more
> opportunity for individual quirks and flavors to manifest themselves.
Truu.
Sad-aid Leidi v hd Loulandz
Bob Dylan
(c) 1966 bai Dwarf Music
(copid uihdaut permisjn)
Uihd ior merciuri mauht in hd misjnari taimz,
And ior aiz laic smouc and ior preirz laic raimz,
And ior silvr cros, and ior vois laic tjaimz,
O, hu amung hdem du hdei htinc cud beri iu?
Uihd ior pocitz uel protectd at last,
And ior striitcar vizjnz uitj iu pleis on hd gras,
And ior flesj laic silc, and ior feis laic glas,
Hu amung hdem du hdei htinc cud cari iu?
Sad-aid leidi v hd loulandz,
Hueir hd sad-aid profet sez hdt no man cumz,
Mai ueirhaus aiz, mai Areibian drumz,
Sjud ai liiv hdem bai ior geit,
Or, sad-aid leidi, sjud ai ueit?
Uihd ior sjiitz laic medo and ior belt laic leis,
And ior dec v cardz mising hd jac and hd eis,
And ior beisment clouhdz and ior holo feis,
Hu amung hdem can htinc hi cud autges iu?
Uihd ior siluuet hueir hd sunlait dimz
Intu ior aiz hueir hd muunlait suimz,
And ior matj-buc songz and ior jipsi himz,
Hu amung hdem uud trai t impres iu?
Hd cingz v Tyrus uihd hdeir convict list
Ar ueiting in lain for hdeir gjereinium cis,
And iu wudnt nou it uud hapn laic hdis,
But hu amung hdem riili uontz just t cis iu?
Uihd ior tjaildhud fleimz on ior midnait rug,
And ior spanisj manrz and ior muhdr z drugz,
And ior cauboi mauht and ior curfiu plugz,
Hu amung hdem du iu htinc cud rezist iu?
O, hd farmrz and hd bisnismn, hdei ool did desaid
T sjou iu hd ded eingjelz hdt hdei {iust/iuzd}* t haid,
But huai did hdei pic iu t simpahtaiz uihd hdeir said?
O, hau cud hdei evr misteic iu?
Hdei uisjd iu'd acseptd hd bleim for hd farm,
But uihd hd sii at ior fiit, and hd founi fols alarm,
And uihd hd tjaild v hd hudlm rapd up in ior armz,
Hau cud hdei evr persueid iu?
[* Ai caant tel from hd contecst uitj iz intendd]
Uihd ior sjiit-metal memori v Canrri Rou,
And ior magaziin huzbnd hu uun dei just had t gou,
And ior gjentilnis nau, huitj iu just caant help but sjou,
Hu amung hdem du iu htinc uud emploi iu?
Nau iu stand uihd ior htiif, iu'r on hiz paroul
Uihd ior houli medalion uitj ior finggrtipz fould,
And ior seintlaic feis and ior goustlaic soul,
O, hu amung hdem du iu htinc cud destroi iu?
[NB In printd and handritn tects, a htorn repleisz 'ht'
and an edh repleisz 'hd'.]
---
And
>From ucleaar@ucl.ac.uk Fri Nov 19 21:34:16 1993
From: ucleaar
Message-Id: <25805.9311192033@link-1.ts.bcc.ac.uk>
To: conlang@diku.dk
Subject: Re: Jaan Kau'nz Riiformd 'Mer'kn Speli(ng)
In-Reply-To: (Your message of Thu, 18 Nov 93 04:19:12 N.) <9311180004.AA00olj@squink.UUCP>
Date: Fri, 19 Nov 93 20:33:46 +0000
Alan Beale/Alan Biil replaiz tu mi:
> > Laic ool "foux de langage", ai rizibli but sinsiirli biliiv
> > mai sciim iz supiirior tu bouht standrd speling and ool uhdr
> > reform propouzalz!
>
> Ie wundur if yue kood xer dh meth'dz yue yuezd t a'ceev (or a'tempt
> t a'ceev) yur golz. Iem veree kyueree's t no if yur meth'dz kood
> bee yuezd t impruev mie on orthahgr'fee az wel, so dhat dhen Ie tue
> kood klaym t hav a sistm "suepiryur t both standurd spel'ng and awl
> udhur riform pr'pozlz".
Mai sistem iz cuait ad hoc, huitj ai htinc iz fiting givn hd naitjur
v inglisj. [I'll change into normal spelling for ease, now.]
Take, for example, the rules for handling schwa. If the schwa corresponds
to a non-schwa vowel in another allomorph of the same morpheme, then
this vowel is used. E.g. able = eibil (cf. ability - abiliti). (The rules
are actually a bit more complex, e.g. table = teibul, tabular = tabiular,
tabularity = tabiulariti.) In cases where there is no corresponding
non-schwa in the same morpheme elsewhere, it is omitted if its presence
can be inferred. In the last resort, "a" is used.
Another issue is which phonological system to apply. I use a mixture,
guided by conservative principles. If one system better reflects the
etymology (esp. latin/greek) then this is preferred. Thus the spelling
is 'rhotic', e.g. "larva" = "larva", "lava" = "laava". If one accent
has 2 phonemes where another has 1, I decide each case on its merits.
Usually I side with the 1-phoneme accent, on the grounds that it
is easier to learn to spell two non-homophones the same way than to
learn to spell two homophones differently. So "wait" and "weight"
are both "ueit". "mass" and "pass" are "mas" and "pas" (though
"palm" is "paam"). "Cut" and "put" are "cut" and "put". But I
preserve the "whether/weather" distinction as "huehdr/uehdr",
since words starting with "wh" form a natural grammatical class.
I have preserved the "cot/caught" (though not the "hoarse/horse" or
"north"/"force") distinction, but I forget why.
The pronuciation of letters tries to keep to the latin model.
But more on this another time.
----
And
>From ucleaar@ucl.ac.uk Fri Nov 19 21:54:10 1993
From: ucleaar
Message-Id: <162890.9311192053@link-1.ts.bcc.ac.uk>
To: conlang@diku.dk
Subject: Re: A Rozeta tekst for riformd spelinqz
Date: Fri, 19 Nov 93 20:53:23 +0000
Sum corecsjnz on mai translitereisjn:
> And iu wudnt nou it uud hapn laic hdis,
uudnt
> O, hd farmrz and hd bisnismn, hdei ool did desaid
biznismn
> T sjou iu hd ded eingjelz hdt hdei {iust/iuzd}* t haid,
iuust/iuuzd
> Uihd ior houli medalion uitj ior finggrtipz fould,
huitj
Ai am not acustumd tu iuuzing hdis speling.
----
And
>From ponds!squink!biljir@dg-rtp.dg.com Sun Nov 21 06:24:03 1993
Date: Sat, 20 Nov 93 22:23:27 EST
Message-Id: <9311210323.AA00on0@squink.UUCP>
From: ponds!squink!biljir@dg-rtp.dg.com (Alan Beale)
To: conlang@diku.dk
Subject: Re: A Rozeta tekst for riformd spelinqz
One more correction (sigh):
> Widh yur cieldhood flaymz awn yur midniet rug,
cield-hood
"cieldhood" would have an edh sound in the middle...
--
Alan Beale ponds!squink!biljir@dg-rtp.dg.com
"when asked what you do for a living, say you laugh for a living." -- Dylan
>From ponds!squink!biljir@dg-rtp.dg.com Sun Nov 21 06:24:05 1993
Date: Sat, 20 Nov 93 21:52:00 EST
Message-Id: <9311210252.AA00omq@squink.UUCP>
From: ponds!squink!biljir@dg-rtp.dg.com (Alan Beale)
To: conlang@diku.dk
Subject: Re: A Rozeta tekst for riformd spelinqz
Hello , in <90664.9311191954@link-1.ts.bcc.ac.uk> on Nov 19 you wrote:
> And ior dec v cardz mising hd jac and hd eis,
^^^
> Ar ueiting in lain for hdeir gjereinium cis,
^^^^^^^^^^
Is the "gj" to reflect the "g" in the original "geranium", or is one or the
other of these words in error?
> T sjou iu hd ded eingjelz hdt hdei {iust/iuzd}* t haid,
>
> [* Ai caant tel from hd contecst uitj iz intendd]
You could mean here that you don't know how Dylan pronounced the word when he
sang it, but I doubt it, especially since your system tries to adapt to
different accents. So I guess that you must mean that you can't tell whether
the intended meaning is "the dead angels that you previously hid", or "the
dead angels that you utilized in order to hide". If that's the case, which
spelling goes with which meaning, and why? (I believe the intended meaning is
the former, though resolving ambiguities in Dylan lyrics is always fraught
with peril.)
--
Alan Beale ponds!squink!biljir@dg-rtp.dg.com
"when asked what you do for a living, say you laugh for a living." -- Dylan
>From ponds!squink!biljir@dg-rtp.dg.com Sun Nov 21 06:24:03 1993
Date: Sat, 20 Nov 93 21:41:15 EST
Message-Id: <9311210241.AA00oml@squink.UUCP>
From: ponds!squink!biljir@dg-rtp.dg.com (Alan Beale)
To: conlang@diku.dk
Subject: Re: A Rozeta tekst for riformd spelinqz
OK, if we're going to the trouble of correcting the errors in our renditions,
here are mine:
Hu a'munq dhm kan think hee kood owtges yue?
Hue
And yur Spanix manurz and yur mudhur's drugz,
mudhurz
(You cant use the apostrophe to mark a possessive if you're going to pronounce
it!)
--
Alan Beale ponds!squink!biljir@dg-rtp.dg.com
"when asked what you do for a living, say you laugh for a living." -- Dylan
>From ucleaar@ucl.ac.uk Tue Nov 23 15:21:23 1993
From: ucleaar
Message-Id: <34912.9311231413@link-1.ts.bcc.ac.uk>
To: conlang@diku.dk
Subject: Re: A Rozeta tekst for riformd spelinqz
Date: Tue, 23 Nov 93 14:13:53 +0000
Alan Beale says:
> > And ior dec v cardz mising hd jac and hd eis,
> ^^^
> > Ar ueiting in lain for hdeir gjereinium cis,
> ^^^^^^^^^^
>
> Is the "gj" to reflect the "g" in the original "geranium", or is one or the
> other of these words in error?
Indeed the "gj" was intended and is used in the Cing Jeimz Baibl, but
Noah Webster thought this unnecessary and irrational, and simplified
it to "jereinium", which is now the standard American Spelling.
Educated British speakers would still use "gjereinium", but in
Britain "jereinium" is gaining ground, and is often to be seen
on signs in florists.
> > T sjou iu hd ded eingjelz hdt hdei {iust/iuzd}* t haid,
> >
> > [* Ai caant tel from hd contecst uitj iz intendd]
>
> You could mean here that you don't know how Dylan pronounced the word when he
> sang it, but I doubt it, especially since your system tries to adapt to
> different accents. So I guess that you must mean that you can't tell whether
> the intended meaning is "the dead angels that you previously hid", or "the
> dead angels that you utilized in order to hide". If that's the case, which
> spelling goes with which meaning, and why?
iuust = I used to hide angels
iuuzd = I used angels to hide
Perhaps this is a British Eng. pronunciation difference.
------
And
>From lojbab@access.digex.net Tue Nov 23 19:29:03 1993
From: Logical Language Group
Message-Id: <199311231828.AA22315@access.digex.net>
Subject: Re: A Rozeta tekst for riformd spelinqz
To: conlang@diku.dk
Date: Tue, 23 Nov 1993 13:28:37 -0500 (EST)
Cc: lojbab@access.digex.net (Logical Language Group)
In-Reply-To: <34912.9311231413@link-1.ts.bcc.ac.uk> from "ucleaar" at Nov 23, 93 04:40:38 pm
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And Rosta writes:
> iuust = I used to hide angels
> iuuzd = I used angels to hide
>
> Perhaps this is a British Eng. pronunciation difference.
I don't think so; I certainly have it, and I believe most (if not all)
Americans do too, but we are probably not very conscious of it.
--
John Cowan sharing account for now
e'osai ko sarji la lojban.
(
geocities.com/raiu_harrison)