RBL Presents!
LINDA NEEDHAM







I guess it was about a year ago that I read my first Linda Needham book, “Her Secret Guardian” - and I'll tell you, I felt like I had struck gold! I had not been so excited about finding a new-to-me author since I had discovered Julie Garwood. (Thank you, Rose, for introducing me to both of them and for buying me my first LN book!). I found Linda's e-mail address right away, and sent her a letter telling her how very much I loved HSG and how excitedly I was looking forward to read the rest of her books!

I was able to meet Linda at the RWA Literacy signing in Anaheim last July. By then we had e-mailed several times, and meeting her was like getting together with an old friend! What a THRILL!!! We have had lots of e-mails back and forth since then, and it is my pleasure to have her here at RBL Presents so that you all may get to know her and see what a fine, lovely lady she is.

I have devoted a large portion of this interview asking Linda questions about her new book, "The Wedding Night." It is just being released today (4/1)! I had the GREAT privilege of being able to read the galley copy, and I am SO excited about it! In the interview, you will get a good picture of what you can look forward to! There are no "spoilers" here, only "teasers" that will make you want to run - not walk - to your bookstore and get your copy. Don't even think about putting this one in the TBR stacks - just start reading it NOW!!! Rose, Aislinn, and Judy helped me out with questions, and I think we have covered a great deal of territory. Linda has very generously shared with us a look at her personal life and loves, as well as her professional life.

So my friends, I am very proud to bring you Linda Needham … author extraordinaire!

~Vic~




Vickie: Linda, are you an avid reader like the rest of us? If so, what do you enjoy reading for fun and relaxation?

Linda: I try to keep up with the Avon Ladies, but they write 'em faster than I can read 'em - so those titles keep piling up, and since I started writing to deadlines, I don't read as often as I'd like to. Outside the romance genre, I read mystery - my current and longtime favorite being Elizabeth George. I love the Sharon Kay Penman historical novels. Of course, I was a voracious reader as kid. And I have a book on the back of every toilet in the house and stacks next to my bed! And tucked into the car - in case I get stuck at a traffic light for more than 10 seconds. What would we do without books?

Vickie: What is your "Grand Passion"? What do you LOVE to do that just makes your heart sing?

Linda: My family is my Grand Passion. But my second Grandest Passion is the theatre. The unremitting liveness of it. There are few more thrilling ventures than sitting in a theatre on opening night of my own play. My heart pounds, my palms sweat ice cubes, as I watch the audience watching and reacting to the words I've written. I also love to direct as well as act, neither of which I do very often anymore. It's very time-intensive, something I can't spare at the moment. But Brad and I plan to do a show together one of these first years. We'll keep you posted.

Vickie: I know that your husband is a very active participant in your career, and that your son is, of course, the "center" of your universe. So, it's "brag" time! Tell us about your family!

Linda: My husband and I met onstage in the musical, SHOW BOAT in 1981. We had our first kiss during rehearsal for a scene in THE LION IN WINTER. The director told us that we could do a lot better, then made us practice again and again. (We're really good at it now - 17 years later.) We sing together in a symphonic choir, and are currently involved in having a great room added to our home - save me! Brad is a software engineer at Intel, the semi-conductor company. He uses the creative side of his noggin at work - looking for cool ways to use the Internet and developing prototypes for new consumer electronics. Our son, James, is Brad's stepson, but they are very close. We're actually very close to James' dad and step-mom. We've been to Europe with them twice, take ballroom dancing together, celebrate Christmas together - weird but wonderful. During James' formative years, we attended parent-teacher's conferences en masse - James' teachers never forgot him and his four parents. (I highly recommend congenial divorces. It's all for the kids, folks. Let your egos goooooooo! No matter what. No excuses.) James is now a sophomore at the University of Washington, Seattle - perpetually on the dean's list - looking to apply in June to UW's engineering schools. We live on five acres in the treed hills about 25 minutes west of Portland, OR, where Brad and I are Co-Presidents for Life of the Independent Nation of Needhamia - a lovely, but mythical, kingdom whose boundaries coincide exactly with our five acres, where great good times - and theme parties - are encouraged. If you want to see photos of the Imperial Palace (the Brown House) or the Imperial Stables, or hear the national anthem of Needhamia (composed by my dear husband), hie yourself off to his web page at The House.

Vickie: Your theme of "family" is always strong and consistent in your stories. What has given you this inspiration to keep it of central importance in your work?

Linda: Family has become very important to me in recent years. My parents were married for fifty years and had two children - my brother, who was three years younger, and I. What a pest he was - until we were adults, and I was divorced and he moved to Oregon, where we shared a house. We were also able share our love of musical theatre by staging shows together, and we crammed a lifetime of sibling celebration into six short years. I was his care-giver when he developed metastatic melanoma at the age of 34, and was at his side when he died - this very wonderful brother of mine whom I used to take for granted. My parents passed away recently, so I'm the only one left to tell the Bishop Family tale - so I do it with my stories. Kailey from “Her Secret Guardian” was so wonderful to write. Since she had been orphaned and fostered and passed from hand to hand, she had to develop her own sense of family in order to stay sane. So she made a point of claiming everyone she met as her family. I do that, too. So watch out, folks - if I know ya, you're MINE!

Aislinn: When I get time to myself after a stressful day, I like to curl up with a good book and a glass of wine. What do you do to relax and get away from the things that stress you?

Linda: Can't remember when I did that last. Sad. Actually, singing is relaxing to me. And hacking trails through the understory of our forest. I'd also like to get back into tap dancing again - which I began about eight years ago as a “mature” adult. Far better exercise for me than Dancer-Jazzersize type activities. I also like to watch movies, and do get to read by the fire occasionally - with my ever-present cup of Red Rose tea by my side.

Judy: Were you ever a "struggling" author? How long did it take you to get published and what was your reaction when you got that first "good news?” And maybe you could give a few "words of wisdom" to our up-and-coming authors at RBL.

Linda: I'm going to take “struggling” to mean, “Was my journey from unpublished to published laborious and exhausting?” The answer is, “Kind of, but fun.”
I leaned toward the dramatic from early childhood, and was feared in my neighborhood for forcing friends and acquaintances to act out every movie I saw. I insisted on being director, costumer, star, and all around bossy person. At the ripe old age of six, I organized my first parade, dressed up in my Patty Playpal doll's clothes (which not only dates me, but tells you how itsy-bitsy I was), and then lead a straggling band of eight equally young victims up one side of our residential block and down the other, carrying a proudly crayoned banner that read “The Parade of California.” Thinking big, even then.
I dabbled in playwriting in later elementary school, then put away my pen for thirteen years while I received the rest of my education, including a BA in Theatre. In 1975, I started writing character sketches for a book which - 14 years later - was a finalist in RWA's 1989 Golden Heart. I did great dialog and characterization, but really lousy conflict. The book was horrible - it's the one that lives in the attic with the bats. My career began when I joined RWA in 1988 with the explicit goal of publication. I conferenced and critiqued and submitted and growled with frustration, until 1993, when I quit my day job - thanks to my dear husband - and began to study the habits and skills of the published, until I finally GOT IT. I finally understood that the source of the romantic conflict has to come from who the characters are! I'd been waaaaaay too nice to them. Heh, heh, heh ....
In 1995, my second manuscript, “For My Lady’s Kiss,” earned me not only a talented and formidable agent and the 1995 Golden Heart for Long Historical, but a two book deal with Avon, followed 15 months later with contracts for three more, the last of which I'm in the middle of writing right now. My reaction to “THE CALL” was ... delayed. I had returned home late one night to find that my agent had left an answering machine message to the effect that “Avon was offering two ...” Then my answering machine ate the tape. It was 10:30 pm in Oregon - 1:30 am East Coast time. I had to wait till the next day to find out that Avon wanted two books from me. I was flying for months - still am. "The Call" was unimaginably wonderful.
For writers-in-training, here's my secret to a compelling story: the heroine's defining character trait should be her greatest strength as well as her greatest weakness, and as such, should be the source of the major conflict. Matching that character with her most ruthless opposite will propel your story toward a powerful ending with no time for a sagging middle. Memorize this.

Judy: What is your "creative process" like? Where do you get your ideas?

Linda: My ideas usually come from some historical concept that catches my fancy - rarely from a specific character or event. When I find an idea that interests me, I keep it at a distance while it percolates. If it's still around at proposal time, I start testing the idea for theme and premise and character. What theme would a young woman who collected folktales from country folk be trying to prove to the world? What kind of hero would have the most profoundly passionate effect upon her goals? In the case of “The Wedding Night,” Mairey Faelyn is trying to preserve the lore of the ancients because she feels that the world will suffer without its precious connection to the past. While Jackson Rushford lives in the today, and has the means and the explicit intention of destroying forever the very ideals that Mairey holds dear. Once I understand this concept, then I go through the excruciating process of creating an emotion-based synopsis, which then becomes the proposal for my next book, which I cling to fairly closely as I write the story.

Rose: How do you fashion such warm and sensitive heroes, who are so passionate and devoted to their loves, and yet still have that bit of rogue/villain in them? That seems a feat of magic in itself!

Linda: Thanks for the compliment. I love the idea of “hero as villain.” I first heard the concept years ago at a writing workshop and I've found that route the easiest for me. It also ties in with the kind of stories I like to write. First and foremost, a hero MUST exhibit unfailingly heroic, please-father-my- children traits from the first moment we meet him. The reader has to see that he's worth all the training that the heroine is going to put him through - and that he'll stay trained after the book ends. In my opinion, a hero who acts upon his impulsive lusts and can't deny his urges is neither trainable nor admirable. I have no insurance that he won't revert to his lesser self when he's out of my sight. Most importantly, I don't have time in my books to create a third, well-developed character to serve as the instigator of villainy, so I just merge all that heroism with all that rogue stuff and - voila! - out comes the heroine's worst nightmare, and her greatest love, all rolled into one sensual package. For me, a villain tends to diffuse the tension between the hero and heroine, because there will be times in the book when the story is being carried solely by the villain - stolen right out from under the hero and heroine. I personally don't care for that dynamic in a romance.

Vickie: Have you always been an "author extraordinaire," or did you have another occupation before you began writing? And what made you decide to write romance?

Linda: I've been a recreation leader (volleyball, anyone?); tiny-tots teacher; sold misses sportswear in a department store (was I bad at that!); telephone company clerk; university theatre costumer (fun job); owner/operator of a clothing alterations shop; electronics industry purchasing agent (a death-defying job); theatrical lighting inside-sales/construction estimator; and now a writer of romance. Through all of these jobs, I always had my eye on the prize - writing romance for a living. I repeatedly turned down promotions because I didn't want those “golden handcuffs” to dissuade me from my goal. My persistence worked because I was serious and single-minded. I'm very proud of that - wildly empowering to take charge.




Vickie: (Drum roll here!!) Now, please tell us about your newest treasure - "The Wedding Night."

Linda: Story ideas rarely strike me between the eyes the way that “The Wedding Night” did. I was minding my own business, reading the introduction to a 1906 field book study of the Celtic fairy-faith. The author/editor had described the trials and tribulations and triumphs of traveling from village to village, recording the oral stories and traditions of the rural peasantry in the mid-1800s in Britain. I'd never heard of this before - the history of the study of folk tales. I adore fairy tales - and believe strongly that today's romances are adult fairy tales - in the best and noblest sense of the term. I was intrigued about the everyday belief in elves and fairies, so I read a ton of fairy tales and came up with two very compatible characters in the form of one rapacious, dragon-hearted mining baron and one penny-poor folklore scholar who guards the secret of an ancient Celtic silver mine. TWN is my fourth book and I'm very excited that it's my very first Avon Romantic Treasure.

Vickie: Your heroine, Mairey Faelyn, is truly enchanting and a magical storyteller. Right away, I said to myself, "This IS Linda." Is there a bit of Linda in Mairey? Is she fashioned after the magical storyteller that you are?

Linda: I confess that my heroines tend to be place-keepers for me. I'm short - so are my heroines. They are young and svelte - oops! Dang! There goes that theory! Seriously, if I were placed in any of the story situations that I've created for these whirlwind, never-say-die heroines, I'd probably react similarly. I'm the first one to dive into the breach - though I'm not a bungee type - when something needs doing. I'm a take-charge kind of person. Believe me, this is not necessarily a good thing. Thanks for the compliment on my storytelling; that's very special to me. Mairey was trying to preserve the common folk stories told in villages and hamlets across England, while the old storytellers were still alive. Progress was hard on them, from the advent of the train to the proliferation of the printed word. Places to go, people to see. I've become a rabid defender of storytelling recently and could wax in long wandering tirades about its importance to the culture. Suffice it to say, that I truly believe that storytelling is time-travel at its finest; our window on history - why and who they were; and it's our legacy for tomorrow - why and who we are. Now THAT's romantic.

Vickie: Although Mairey is a virgin, she is extremely liberated in her sexual thinking, and uninhibited in her sexuality when she discovers it. This is a very refreshing change in the usual virginal heroines and I wonder what prompted you in this direction? In this same vein, while Jack was also very sexual (and sexy!), his attitude was more along the lines of the times and more where we might have expected Mairey's to be, and this proved to be, at times, very amusing. Could you address this reversal?

Linda: Mairey is more a product of her education in the social sciences than of the fashionable but strict Victorian world that is so familiar to Jack. She has a practical bent, and a curiosity that drives her to keep searching for answers to her questions. She's had many academic conversations with other (male) antiquarians about human sexuality, which she took in her stride. The ancient Celts worshiped the miracle of the human body - especially those parts which differentiated male from female and had to do with procreation. Life was short and mysterious. The earth gave with grace, just as surely as it took away with bewildering brutality. Practicality in regard to human sexuality was essential for the race to survive. Mairey recognizes and respects this, and doesn't shy from having her own curiosity fulfilled.
Jack, on the other hand, is a hero through and through. He is very aware of the Victorian prohibition against anything of a sexual nature. He is well trained to cast his thoughts toward cold baths and abstinence, although he is a raging bull when it comes to Mairey. Being a hero, he knows that unmarried sex with a woman always puts the woman in social jeopardy. Jack wouldn't do that. In fact, I don't see where any of my heroes will ever cross that line. Not heroic. The night of their first love scene, Jack is so overwhelmed with feelings of love for Mairey, that he just can't form the “will you marry me” words until after she's gifted him with her virginity. But he has every intention of marrying Mairey immediately afterward. When she refuses, but can't tell him the reason, he sticks to his guns, and then takes no prisoners when the question of marriage becomes moot.

Vickie: We all have "collections" of things that we love, but none, I don't think, quite as unique as Mairey's! Can you tell us how in the world you came to give Mairey a collection of ancient PHALLUSES?! (Or is that phalli? Help me here! Hahahaa!)

Linda: It's phalli! Part of my research for "The Wedding Night” included leafing through catalog books of Celtic artifacts. I wanted to know what kind of junk Mairey's family had collected over the years. I mean, can you imagine that library at Galcliffe College before Jack had it packed up? Like an eccentric auntie's attic. I found photos and drawings of statuary, bowls, jewelry, religious objects and - phalli. Big ones, little ones, attached ones, detached ones, immensely out of proportion ones, some with little faces carved into the tips ... And I thought, “Gee, Mairey has a collection of arrowheads, pottery shards - that sort of thing - why not a phallus collection?” One that connected her to her grandmother and her mother. How very lovely to have such a “goddess of the earth” legacy to share between generations. I also knew that I needed to spark up the scenes when she and Jack were searching through museum collections, etc. The scene in the storage room wrote itself in a half hour. In Jack's point of view at first - the poor susceptible fellow's imagination at full throttle, and Mairey's scientific admiration of the collection, her close up exploration. I loved teasing Jack with Mairey's touch. And it was a great opportunity for the reader to learn a bit about the prevalence of phallic worship in ancient times. I love the regenerational aspect of the earth-as- fertile-mother-figure. That scene also served well as Mairey's recognition of her own sexuality in the context of the cycle of life. The phallus was no longer merely a stone-carved connection to the past, but also to her future. Eh, hem ... That would be a connection to Jack's phallus, wouldn't it?

Vickie: While I have loved all of your books, I think "The Wedding Night" is my new favorite (they just keep getting better and better!), and ,while it is my opinion that you have always written what I call "exquisite" sex (and this part of a book is verrry important to me - *G*), I think you outdid yourself in TWN and added "sizzling" to "exquisite" … a perfect combination. How did this happen in this book, and will you keep consistent in this area in the future?

Linda: I'm delighted that a RBLer has judged TWN to be sizzling as well as exquisite. That means that I fulfilled my intention for the story. The sensuality of TWN came out of those two characters. Jack was a “dragon,” a mythical creature not only reputed to hoard and protect vast treasures, but one that symbolizes the phallus. Since Mairey was a folklore scholar, she would have a deep understanding of the importance of sex and sexuality in the psyche of mankind. She knew the facts, and Jack was the perfect dragon to seduce and be seduced by.
My goal is to make every book as sensually tense and hot as I can make it, within the perimeters of the characters - though the particulars might be different. One of the hottest, most sensual scenes in film is in “It’s a Wonderful Life” - Donna Reed is on the phone with a male friend and Jimmy Stewart is holding her from behind, whispering into her ear that he (Jimmy) doesn't want to be a husband, or in love, that he wants to leave Bedford Falls and make an exciting, fulfilling life for himself. And as he's telling her this, we know that he's so much in love with her, that his heart is aching, and she's not listening to the man on the phone, that she loves Jimmy and hopes that he'll stay, but she'll accept his choice if he leaves. They are fully clothed and standing in the hallway of her mother's house, with that woman upstairs. This scene is so HOT, I'm surprised that it made it past the 1946 censors. It's the scene that is always in my head when I'm writing love scenes. Hot-edged restraint, characters fully cognizant of the risks, the senses dilated. Cooool. I like plot to happen during the love scene, lots of entwining dialog - like Jack and his fairy tale; and a prologue - beginning - middle - end arc. Making love is the ultimate vulnerability between the hero and heroine, so I like to make a big deal of it. Their lives are changed irrevocably afterward. The burner is turned to “scorch” in my Work-In-Progress. Another water scene. Must be something in MY psyche about water and wrangling limbs.

Vickie: And finally, would you like to give us any "hints" about what's new in "the cooker???”

Linda: Would you believe The Black Death? Okay, how about a year AFTER the Black Death? England - 1351. Life is pretty dismal. Not enough labor to plant and harvest. Rebellious peasants, poverty stricken lords. The story is kind of a reverse Sleeping Beauty. After a blood-thirsty life and a devastating emotional loss that includes the black death and the loss of his son and his own self-respect, our warrior-hero decides that God has condemned his soul for his sins, and so he gives himself to the monastic life - but not before he pledges to rebuild, by hand, his castle chapel, which was damaged along with the castle and village in an earthquake at the time of the plague. He is dedicating the chapel to the bastard son that he never claimed. The complication is that he and the heroine were married by proxy a year before, but they have never met each other. He thinks she's dead in the plague. And she thinks the same of him. So, as the story begins, she shows up at his abandoned castle thinking him dead, and having no idea what he looks like, and claims the castle as her widow's rights. Hero doesn't need the complication of being married - wants to rebuild the chapel and be outta there so that he can take his punishment like the amoral sinner he is. So he keeps quiet, contracts with her to rebuild the chapel for her, and then sets about falling in love with his own wife. He can't tell her that he's her husband for MANY reasons - and always with a mind that he has pledged himself to God and can't UNpledge himself without bringing down God's wrath upon his now-beloved wife. Cool stuff happens. And a terribly dark moment. Fun! Fun! Fun! as the heroine slashes her way through the thorns that surround HIS castle. Ha! I loved the movie “Ever After,” because the heroine never needed rescuing - was always rescuing HIM. Which is, after all, real life!!!

Thanks for inviting me to speak with the romance experts at RBL Romantica! I love you guys!






Ketchup
November 2003







Joey: Linda, we haven't officially "chatted" with you since 1999! Can you believe it? Tell us a little about what you've been up to during that time. Books, music, plays, awards ... I know you've been super busy.

Linda: Oh, my!!! 1999 was a long four years ago! Time goes by soooo quickly and, oy, have I been busy! 1999 was back in THE WEDDING NIGHT days. Remember Mairey and Jack, Mairey's three little sisters and Jack's quest for his own three sisters, lost to him years before. I'm a little slow on the uptake, but I'm finally going to be starting the stories of Jack's sisters - uhm, two books from now. (More about that later.) Then there was my first USA Today bestseller, THE MAIDEN BRIDE, which was also voted one of RWA's Top Ten Books of 2000, and then a bit of a sixteen-month lull that was precipitated by what I call a menopausal brain-fart. Not a medical term, but you get the picture. Out of that lovely time came MY WICKED EARL, written after my hubby and I took a fabulous month-long trip to England, where we explored castles and cathedrals and incredibly amazing used-book stores (looking for research materials) and took 2,500 digital photos. THE BRIDE BED came out in October of 2002, and spent two weeks on the USA Today bestseller list. Verrra exciting.

In the meantime, I also wrote and directed three musical revues, we remodeled our home inside and out (not ourselves, of course - that would have been a disaster!), I directed a high school play, and I've taken up tap dancing again - this time with my husband. Our son graduated from college and started an engineering job last year, and married his college sweetheart this past May. And this summer my husband and I did a concert tour of Northern Europe with our choir, after which I flew to NYC for the last day of the RWA conference and then an extended visit to the spectacular mansions of Newport, RI, with four of my favorite writing buddies. At this very moment, I'm staying a few days with a friend in Omaha after the Romantic Times conference, and then I'm going on to Indiana with my husband to visit his family. Then it'll be back to the old grind and heading quickly toward my pre-Thanksgiving deadline.

Joey: Okay, now more specifically, I want to know all about your latest books coming out. I know the first of the series was released at the end of October (and it rocks - lucky me got to read an ARC). Tell us about that and let us know when we'll be able to get our hands on the rest.

Linda: THE PLEASURE OF HER KISS will be available October 28th and is Book One of The Gentlemen Rogues, my first series of linked stories. Three dark and dangerous heroes matched with three fiercely adventurous heroines. The story began as a blending of my two favorite Rock Hudson comedies. In "Come September," Rock is a wealthy American whose unannounced visit to his Riviera mansion reveals that his estate manager has been running the mansion as a hotel in Rock's absence. In "His Favorite Sport," Rock, a famous flyfishing expert who has never held a fishing rod, let alone caught a fish, is hounded by a female sports writer who discovers his secret.

So I needed an English estate for the hero, Jared, to neglect ... because he's a very busy spy. And he needed a heroine, Kate, the daughter of his recently deceased business partner, to neglect at the same time, because hell hath no fury like a neglected heroine. Then I added two more gentleman spies. And the Irish Potato Famine. And a shipwreck. And a dozen orphans. And a wedding between Jared and Kate that happened eighteen months before, on the deck of a ship, half-way around the world. Oooo ... and they'd never met before their five-minute marriage. And Jared was bearded at the time and looked like a pirate, and left her a moment later, so Kate doesn't recognize him when he comes storming into the sportsman's lodge to finally claim his bride. Of course, he doesn't let on who he is because he believes that she ... Ah, but then I think I'll just leave it there, and let you read for yourself what I did with the rest of the story.

Joey: What are your plans after this latest round of books? Can you give us a hint?

Linda: Of course, at this point, I'm in the process of finishing Book Two, A SCANDAL TO REMEMBER, which hits the stands in September 2004. It's the story of Andrew, Jared's long-time friend and fellow spy, and the exiled, independent-minded Princess Caroline, whom Drew has been assigned to protect from a would-be assassin. Victorian ballrooms and a jousting tournament, coronations and kidnappings, mystery and mayhem - it's been sooooo much fun!

But here's the thing that excites me most about this whole series: the heroine of Book Three is Emma Rushford, the oldest of Jack's long-lost sisters from THE WEDDING NIGHT. Finally! Emma, too, had lost track of her two young sisters years before, and her unorthodox search will lead her right into the arms of Ross Carrington, the Earl of Battencourt, a man with dark secrets of his own. Books Four and Five will be the stories of Jack's two other sisters who'd gotten separated from each other long ago - first Bannon and then Clady, whose story will probably include the reunification of Jack and his three sisters. I'm saying probably here because I haven't settled on the exact nature of the reunion. But rest assured that when it comes, it will include everyone, and their joy will rock the world.

Looking ahead into 2005, I hope that those of you who live near Portland, Oregon get a chance to see my next musical revue - as yet untitled, but it's a part of the celebration of the bicentennial of the Lewis and Clark Expedition and the centennial of the Portland Exposition. Lots of song and dance and hijinks with a heavy dose of romance.

Joey: Thanks for stopping by and giving us the chance to "ketchup." You've got many fans here at RBL, so I hope you'll swing by and let us know when you've got something new in the works - or even if you just want to chat.

Linda: Thanks, Joey! I'll stop by soon! And I invite all those wild, rebel women of RBL to come on over to my website and enter my monthly contest and to join my e-newsletter mailing list.



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