The Drama goes On
Dear Master Benckert
Question: Could you explain what you meant by "lots of people have been to Jimmy's house".
Respectfully, Cathy
Answer: Sure, Jimmy invited all his top belt to his home at one time or another for lunch, dinner, or just go out for coffee and so on. In addition, all his top belts were given open invitations to come to his home for private lessons if they could not make it to the studio and etc. He would even teach you over the phone if you couldn't make it to his house. Because he had this intimate quaility, each person he came in contact with felt as if they were his best friend. This in partly what created the san soo drama frame of mind, that is, "I'm the only one that knows this or learned that complex,".
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July 9, 2004
San Soo Drama Goes On
Question: I had private lessons from Jimmy at his home from 75-84 until he retired the first time. Carl Lorenzen and I did all five of the instructors manual that Jimmy sold. From 86 until 91 Jimmy and Bernie both asked me to video tape the lessons and forms for him along with Joel. Jimmy gave me copies of all the forms he passed out to the instructors, including yours. I would love to see just one of these supposed Advance Masters forms to compare with what he gave me and what we did for him. I studied with jimmy from 1965 until his death, and I never heard him mention any Advance Masters Degree or class that I was not invited to, especially since he invited me into his own home for private lessons for nearly 10 years. Did he pass out special scrolls for achieving this Adanced Masters Degree? Can I see yours?What differentiates an Advanced Master from a Master who was a first generation student of his and studied with him for 26 years?
Russ Williams.
Answer: Lots of people have been to his home that means nothing to me. You saw the Advance Masters list and your name is not on it is it. I have no time for small minded people like you.
Comment: These are the kind of egoistic people that are ripping apart the art. They cannot stand the thought or idea that someone might know or have some thing they don't. Of the five books, Jimmy's students and masters could only understand the last two of them. This was because Jimmy could not read or write english and did not know what was in them, otherwise he would not have let them be sold.
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July 1 2004
Master Jim,
Question: I noticed that you do not put up any of the 1-45 lessons. Is there a reason for this?
Answer: I think I was asked a similar question about this a long time ago, but not sure, anyway, the reason is, the 1-45 lessons were designed for little kids, or beginners and as such do not progress the mind properly. It would be like being in the 9th grade, but reading 1st grade books over and over again.
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June 1 2004
Dear Jim,
Why the Choi - in the Choi li ho fut hung? And why the Choy - the Choy li fut? Why are they spelled different? Do they represent the same family, or are they different? If so, please explain.
Well Choy has 5 or 6 variations as do the other names. Some are Cantonese, some Mandrain, while others are minor dialects. Most common spellings are;
Cai/chuah/choy/choi/tsai/tsoi, Li/lee/lay/lai, Ho/haw/hok/hock/hoc/hoe/haugh/how, Fo/fu/fut/fat/fuk, Houng/hung/huong/hoong/hun/ziong, Ga/gar/ka/jia
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April 1 2004
Hi, I was reading on your website that the running horse uses sounds? Do you use the fighting sounds? Thank you, Respectfully Stuart.
Well the fighting sounds are used with the stances. For instance, if you form a 1/2 kneeling horse while pulling an opponent down by the head or shoulders, the proper sound must be used or your weight and power will be moving in the wrong way, or direction. This in turn will effect your balance, and possibly causing you to fall. Fighting is like writing, you cannot just type any letter you want just becasue you like it, there must be a reasons behind everything you do.
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Mar 1 2004
Well, this month let me answer several question asking the same thing; "Is there 8 basic stances or 9 basic stances, and why in the box set form (in one of the five books), do they list several stances with the same names if there all different."
Well first off, there are 9 basic stances as I have explained before, but because of Chan Duk's accent and his frustration in trying to explain things in English, many different versions of these stances and their names have come about. The correct names to the 9 stances are;
1. Sei Ping Ma
2. Na U Ma, not "New Do Man".
3. Deel Ma, not "El Ma".
4. Chin Seem Ma, not Deam Ma.
5. Ta U Ma, not An Do Ma.
6. Ji Ng Ma, not Jona Na Ma.
7. Qui Ma, or Lok Qui Ma, not Bing Guy Ma.
8. Ding Ji Ma, not An do Ma.
9. Sow, or Sao Gerk Ma, not Shum Gak Ma.
Each of these 9 stances are used in a partiuclar way or manner in the 3 box set. However, the 3 box set found in one of the 5 books (not sure which one) does not reflect there proper uses, or names, but rather repeats the same stances and implies uses for them that are not intented. For those of you that would like more information on these stances please contact me directly.
Thank you, Jim Benckert.
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Feb 4th 2004
Stances
Hi, I saw that you said there are 81 different stances, can you elaborated on this. Thanks Russ.
Hi Russ, well each stance has various transition stages that are used prior to, and during the application of particular techniques, such as, striking, throwing, applying leverages and takedowns. If they are not applied, you will lack power and balance (your triangles will break down). In addition, there are other stances that just come from, or are, just connect to there base stance such as the "crane stance" which comes from the kick stance.
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Dec 8th 2003
Blocks And There Names
Dear Master Benckert. I have asked my Master several time the names of the basic blocks but he keeps telling me we only have up and down blocks and that is its. I also have asked for there names in Chinese, but he has avoid me by either saying it doesn't matter, or its not important. I have become quite frustrated with the whole thing could you please help me with these questions. Respectfully Jeff.
Sure Jeff, There are 8 basic blocks which are subdivided down into various other categories. However, the 3 basic blocking technques are; Circular blocks (poon kiu), parry or deflecting block (nap sao), and the half moon, or half circle block (la sao). These spin off into a vast arrangement of forearm, elbow, wrist and hand slapping blocks.
Yours J.Benckert.
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Dec 1 2002
Saluting
Hi. Could you please tell me why some schools salute with there left foot forward and some with the right. Thank you, Robert.
Hi Robert. Well the footwork in a salute is very important. They are always executed with the right foot forward in a kick stance, inconjunction with the right fist being closed and the left hand open. Both bought up, and joined together. This shows your confidence and means your a 1st class fighter. If you salute with your left foot and left fist forward, it menas 1 of 2 things; 1. you are a 2nd class fighter, or 2nd rate to someone. 2. Your are being or showing you are very very respectful, or humble to someone.
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Nov 23 2003
Will The Real Hung Stand Up!
Is Chan Shiu Hung the guy we were told was nicknamed Crazy Devil, the overlord of the province? The description sounds very different. Thanks.
Well, yes to the frist question, but no to the second. Jimmy always said his uncle, Chan Hung taught him, but his great uncle uncle Chan Gung was the overlord, who had 26 studio's and was very brutal. Chan Duk's "Little Uncle" was killed by the Japanese, not Chan Hung. Everyone has mixed up these stories because of Chan Duk's accent was so bad. Chan Hung actually died of old age around 74 or 75. Chan Duk had very little patience if you couldn't get the facts straight right away...so many times he would just blow you off with a nod. Hence, 100's of different stories.
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Nov 7th 2003
Basic Form and Motion Fundamentals: A follow up to the last question.
1. Always keep in mind; slowness, lightness, clarity, balance and calm.
2. Fix your attention on what your doing at the moment, how your doing it; concentration.
3. Move with a spring like tension and expansion in to every move.
4. All momvents are base on the natural way the body moves.
5. Everything must move and flow in harmony. Feet, knees, thighs waist, hands and head.
6. Always approach your movments from the stand point of the mind as well as body. Mind controls body, body does not control the mind.
7. The upper part of your body (torso and head must always be lifted upward. This makes the upper body light, and the lower part heavy. This is how proper balance and body motion is achived. Otherwise you will be top heavy and constantly off balance.
8. There is always one part of your body in motion all the time, but never the same part. Each should flow evenly and smoothly as one unit. If even one part is out of harmony your movements will be come clumsy. See; #5.
9. Every movement in the form or in fighting has its counterpart; right has left, up has down, high has low and etc. One with out the other creates discord.
10. Balance your movements with soft and hard. If your use only hard power, you will become stiff and lose the true meaning and spirit the technique. If you practice the soft only, you will lost the power, structure, and fighting attitude and of the form.
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Nov 1 2003
Motion
Hi; I have been training in San Soo for over 5 years mostly 4 times a week and sometimes 5 if lucky. Actually 7 days a week in my mind. A couple quick questions that I have. I received my black belt after 4 years in the art and lots of hard work. After reading your section on the form I realized that I have not been aware that there is so much more to the form. I have done many forms and have made many of my own but now I question myself on all aspects of the form not only from what I created but what I was taught. Are the true ways of the form still taught today with all of the keys or is it all clsoed door? I have been taught to protect myself well but with all respect pushing that aside, I am interested in being a martial artist and want to continue digging for the meat of the art. I guess my second question is in your prespective what is the way of movement. Respectfully, SJN.
Hi. Well this is very hard to explain here, but I will try to do the best I can. The follwoing is the rules Chan Duk (Jimmy) laid down to me;
3 Ways Of The Form
Forms (quan, kuen kohn) should always be taught according to;
1. How long has the student been with the master.
2. Is the student part of the family (blood or adopted).
3. Is the studnet respectful, trustworthy, and loyal to the master.
Once these have been decided, the master picks one of three levels of form to teach.
1. Level 1: No pattern forms: These are made up of only long arm roundhouse clawing, or open hand motions with a few closed hand blows. These forms repeat the same, or similar movements every few moves. No particular pattern or footwork is used.
2. Level 2: Basic forms; These are four directional forms (sup ji kuen; cross pattern forms). Some of the correct strikes and footwork are taught. Lethal movers are either deleted, or disguised.
3. Level 3: Seed (Bakwa Kuen; 8 directional form); The most advance of all the forms and used strickly for fighting. Each movement is used for a different reason and under a different circumstance. It positions the stylist differently every 26 moves. In the open door classes, Chan Duck (Jimmy), also deleted, or disguised many of these moves in some manner by striking on the wrong angles, or not properly executing the hand or foot blow. He also executed the footwork in reverse order (clockwise) to hide moves. However, the pure seed Bakwa forms are the entire back bone of the system. Taught only to family members, or most trusted students.
Correct Body Motion
Just like everything in the universe must follow a particular patterns, laws and rules to evolve correctly, so too must the motion of a form. When you draw, you just can't put the eyes, nose, ears and etc., anywhere you like. You must follow the drawing system, or you cannot call yourself an artist. The form system is the same, but based on the natural ways humans move. If you do not understand these rules it would similar to constantly using words that are mispronounced, or misspelled, as well as, incorrect punctuation placement.
However, I cannot give you all these basics for several reasons, so I would suggest training with someone like Ted Sias. I will however send you a basic list of them, as well as, list some of them up on my site over the next few months.
Making New Forms
The ancient masters created the form system so that new forms can be created from the originals without causing flaws, or contaminating the system. But one must fully understand this process or the forms rhythmic pattern and naturalness will break down. In addition, if only one master tries to make a form, he will not have the ability to judge the form objectively on his own and will add things that are unnatural to it.
Yours, Jim Benckert
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Oct 22 2003
Stance And Fighting Sounds
Hi Jim. I was reading some of the stuff off your website, and I was wondering if you could clarify some things for me. In your section on basics, you mention that "all stances are taught in conjunction with the 5 sounds". Could you explain how that is done? Josh.
Dear Josh: Well what I met by that statement was simply, when a stance is taken up and a strike is issued, the proper sound must be used with that stance and strike. Just like in grammar, you cannot just write a sentence anyway you fell like. Likewise, stances, strikes and sounds cannot be used in a random manner, they follow a particular gammar. In addition, some stances (depending on the technique) must be positioned at particular angles to the opponent when appling certain sounds. If this is not done, the strike will not generate the correct power and your balance will be off. Even if the correct sound is used with the proper hand or foot blow, but the stance is not angled correctly, you will fall over. This is because, your power and balance triangles will be moving away from the opponent and not into him, resulting in pulling you off balance, as well as, generating very little power into the target.
The following will also occur;
1. You will have a high center of gravity with anxiety and tension within the body and mind.
2. Your feet will float out from under you giving your a clumsy off balanced feeling.
3. You will be unable to execute your techniques with full energy (chi) and power (fa jing).
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Oct 1 2003
Five Element Form
Question: Hi, I just have a quick question. I saw that you said that the forms always moves counter clockwise, but is there any other reasons for this. Thanks, Jon.
Answer: Hi Jon, well as I explained in the form section, the counter clockwise movements are used to train the mind to think in an orderly way, similar to the reason whey you are taught your alphabet in a progressive movement from "A" to "Z" and not in a random manner. However, there are other more important reasons behind this progression that is rarely understood by most Tsai Li Fo san soo stylists. That is, the Buddhist monks charted and plotted the art (form) around a system of numbers, triangles, circles and natural phenomena which are all based on the Chinese concept of the "5 elements", and "eight directions". These two (2) concepts explicitly define how the form will fit together and unfold.
Let me try and simplify these theories this way. The base of the "Five Elements" consist of; earth, metal, water, wood, and fire. Each one of these 5 have a direct effect on the body and mind. When you practice the form, you are constantly moving into and out of one of these five elements by stepping forward, backward and from side to side. If the form is not plotted, or executed correctly, then an over, or under activation of various organs, internal energy, blood or ging can result. In addition, each one of these 5 elements are inner connected to various other counnterparts such as; the five organs (stomach, lungs, kidneys, liver, heart), the five colors, the 5 directions, the five body parts and etc which also have an effect on the body and mind. So, it is the "5 Elements", its counterparts, and the eight directions that decide the way the form is to be charted or plotted out.
If you need more information on this topic, please email again and I will send it directly to you. Thanks, Jim.
Aug 21 2003
Question: Chan Heung and Various Myths
Checked out your site on Geocities, Don't know you from Adam, but spent the last couple of hours researching and reading everything you posted. Basically, I just want to know if you as a First Generation Master, truly believe that we are Choy Li Fut. If you totally buy it, then I definately have to, but really want your honest opinion.
Also, I one time hear Jimmy promoted 50 people to Master, then
kicked 20 or so out of the association...any truth to that?
Question #3 . I've seen a Master one time that taught a 6 move salute
to the art...Ever seen it?
Thanks for all your time, and hope to hear from you....Jason
Answer
Hi Jason;
First let me say this, research everything your told. Don't believe anything a master tells you unless it feels right. That is, use common sense when someone gives you information. Is 2 and 2, three, or is it really four (4). Common sense will never lead you astray. That's why I said, if someone writes the sentence "Bob walked his dog" you feel ok. But if some writes, "Dog Bob his walk" at once you feel and sense something is wrong.
Choy Li Fut:
With that having been said, all I can tell you is what I was taught by Jimmy, which was, san soo is only a style of Choy Li Fut, or Tsai Li Fo, and Choy Li Fut is just the short name version of the five family Shaolin art of Choy Li Ha (hoc or ho), Fut Hung ga or gar. Also, all the basics he gave me are identical to that of Choy Li Fut. In addition, the family tree he gave me is the same as Choy Li Fut (as I listed on the first page of my site). He even had a picture of Chan Heung (his grandfather) and the founder of Choy Li Fut which he show me and a few others students (see above). Another thing is, his great uncle, Chan Siu Hung. This was one of Jimmy's teacher and a famous Choy Li Fut martial artist. His son Chan Mo, was Jimmy's class mate. Chan Mo is still alive and has been contacted by Tom Akers, and confirmed this information to Tom.
Kicking Out Masters:
As for Jimmy promoting 50 masters than kicking out 20 is just a story. Jimmy did from time to time kick out masters that had stolen from him and etc. Jimmy was very kind, but if you tried to cheat him, you were gone.
Salutes:
Opening salutes can consist of as few as two or three moves, or as many as 6. There are many many opening hand salutes. Also, there are various types of hand salutes;
Hidden Strength Salute
Position Of Humility Salute
Position Of Reverent Salute
Position Of Alertness Salute
Just to name a few. The last or closing salute of a form is usually made up of 3 to 6 moves, but is counted only as one motion.
In addition, the forms are the most important part of the art, not the fighting lessons. Everything comes from the form. If a teacher cannot explain the proper use of the form to you, then your fighting technique will not evolve correctly. The form is your grammer. That is, you can learn all the words you want, but if you can't put them together correctly, then the thing your spelling won't make any sense, or be of any use. Hope this helps, Jim.
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Aug 20 2003
The State Of Tsai Li Fo San Soo
Justin: Riverside California
I stumbled across your website and thought I would drop you a quick note:
My name is Justin. I began training in San Soo in 1987 in Riverside California.
Just in the last year or so have I taken the time to visit various San Soo websites and message boards. Things were worse than I thought throughout the San Soo community.
I found your article "San Soo Drama 2" interesting. I think one of the biggest obstacles in keeping the San soo Community to be united again is the attitude of many first generation masters. It is almost comical to see on message boards masters trying to one up each other with a "Jimmy told me story". I though your article had an interesting explanation about the confusion and inconsistencies that are floating out there. I am sure there are several explanations behind the differences of opinions between "old timers".
I had the pleasure of meeting Jimmy Woo several times (he would come to our studio twice a year for black belt promotions up until his death). I hope someday everybody will be able to check their egos and work for the advancement of the art.
I look forward to more articles on your site.
Justin. Riverside Ca.
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Question: Form
Hi Jim,
I was just cruising around the internet and came across your website. I was especially interested in two things that you said. One was about the form basics when you said that the forms start in stop in the same place. In general this is true, but my Master has taught many forms that have base changes where you end up being 1 to 1 and a half steps off your starting base at the end. I assume this is because they were linked with other forms that had base changes which shifted you back to the original starting base at their conclusion. Also you said that they are "Buddha Saint" forms are you drawing a connection to Arhat Boxing with that statement? Could you elaborate? The other thing you said was something about the "1-100" variations that become "3,180,000." I wasn't quite following you, i.e. don't think I really grasp what you are saying. I heard My teachers talking about how the basic 45 was actually the basic 100 and that the basic 100 was actually more like 200 and could be extended further. I assumed this was because they have many many more notebooks full of material beyond the 5 basic textbooks that Carl wrote up for the association. I wasn't really paying attention because it wasn't important to me at the time. Now I wish I would've listened better. Could you elaborate more on the 1-100 thing?
O, what is an advance masters degree.
Thanks so much,
Answer: Form Motion
Hi,
Well a form should always start and stop in the same place no matter what...unless its a show form. The other exception to this rule would be if your doing an five circle interacting form. These, while starting and stopping in the same place, are long forms and have the stylist hopping form one 3 foot circle to another, and when broken down over several months of practice, the stylist may find him/her self stopping from time to time off center. Also, most interacting forms were broke down and taught over a 30 day period of time, with a closing salute add at the end of the month. This gave the impression that the form was over, when in fact, the next part of the form started up again the following month. This could go on for months depending on the length of the form. This could be what is occurring.
However, if your doing a form that is not hopping from circle to circle, and your ending up off center at the end of month, or at the end of the form, then it is not being taught correctly (Jimmy did teach forms like this in the hope of hiding particular secrets). However, doing forms like that would be the equivalent of sometimes starting your abc's at the beginning at the alphabet, sometimes four or five letters in, and sometimes starting at the end of the alphabet. It would confuse the mind. That's why a form does not end in a different place everytime, it fragments the mind.
Also, the monks strung sequences together in a purely natural hormonious way so the mind would automatically feel awkward and unnatural when an error occurred. If it feels funny to you, then 99% of the time it probably is. For instance, the sentence, "Bob walked his dog", does not alarm the mind, or make it feel uncomfortable. However, the sentence "walked dog his Bob" causes the mind to feel uneasy and distressed. The same words are being used, but because the arrangement is unnatural the mind has a tendency to feel inept and clumsy, the form is setup the sameway.
Form Name And Types
As for the name, "Buddha Saint forms" I don't know anything about Arhat Boxing. I'm just telling you what I learned about tsai li fo forms. If there is a link or connection between our forms and Arhat Boxing I do not know what it is. I was told, each form was named after a particular Saint or monk, and that these types of forms are all done within a 3x3 foot circle. However there are other types of forms within our system with other names and other rules of execution such as show forms.
"The basic 45 and the1-100" variations that become "3,180,000.": Well the 45 basics is just a name for the first 45 lessons Jimmy (Chan Duk) use to teach to his new students. These lesson can be broken down and strung together in different sequences if you have the keys to create additional lessons. This could be what your teachers are referring to, but I'm not really sure. However, these lessons were never meant to be taught to older students, but Jimmy did so in the early days because he was highly protective of his more potent lessons. In addition, these lesson will not progress a student mind very far. Because of this, Chan Duk (Jimmy) later fazed out these lessons altogether.
The basic 1-100 I was referring to is the hand strike variation that are created from the 10 seeds, or 10 basic hand strikes. The 1-100 is your complete martial arts alphabet, whereas the 10 seeds are you base alphabet. From these come the 3,180,000 fighting techniques.
Advance Masters
Lastly, an Advance Masters Degree is just what its says, it is a degree Jimmy awarded his top belts over and above their Master degrees to show that had advance training with him that other Black Belts did not have. In the very beginning stages of this training, it was only for closed door students. That is, when this class started, all student were kick out of the studio and the doors lock. No students were allow in or out of the studio till the class was over. There were only a handful of Master that received these degrees.
Hope this helps you.
Yours, Jim
