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Subject: Pain in animals post id: 35727
Following on from Froggy's thread about the Spotted Turtle Dove.....
How do we judge an animals pain ?
For me if l was left to live my life with two broken legs without medical assistance, my life would be very painful and miserable.
However l am not a bird am l ?
Some animals do show obvious outward signs of stress and pain. Cats and dogs are classic examples, most of us can tell when one of our pets are in pain.
However with animals we are not used to dealing with we may miss such signs........ or ......... they may not show any signs at all. For example many marsupials when stressed we simply sit there, not showing any sign at all of being stressed. A carer who recieves a call about a tame and friendly baby roo know to move quick.
So how do we assess pain and suffering in animals?
From: David the Atheist ® 03/12/2002 12:17:48
Subject: re: Pain in animals post id: 35733
chrisy,
Body language is important as you just pointed out with the Joey example.
Knowing how a fit animal reacts and judging the “crook” one against that is also important.
Its eating and preening habits are a give-away also. It shit may give a clue too.
Temperature, sounds it makes, how and when it sleeps etc all come into play and are recognised by the observant carer.
DTA
From: chrisy ® 03/12/2002 12:19:15
Subject: re: Pain in animals post id: 35735
>>>>> Knowing how a fit animal reacts and judging the “crook” one against that is also important
I agree with this totally.
So if someone hasn't had experience with an animal in a fit and healthy state then they will have difficulty in assessing an injured animal ?
From: David the Atheist ® 03/12/2002 12:20:18
Subject: re: Pain in animals post id: 35737
Yes..That is why it is so important to seek help.
DTA
From: David the Atheist ® 03/12/2002 12:25:57
Subject: re: Pain in animals post id: 35738
One of the things that must be upper most in the mind when an animal is injured is that they mask pain, as showing signs of difference makes them an easier target for prey.
The mask seems to wear off when an animal eventually works out you are a part of the furniture and a minimal threat to it. When an injured creature feels secure, then the pain is more recognisable.
No doubt there are instances where this does not happen.
DTA
From: joey ® 03/12/2002 12:42:23
Subject: re: Pain in animals post id: 35742
and following on in this line ...... some 'painful' injuries may not be apparant to even an experienced carer :(
case in point - Megan my western grey who came in as a pinkie (eyes only just opening)with a broken tail and her ankle broken in two places...those injuries were obvious .. an xray to check for further damage was requested of a vet and he assured me that there was no need and very risky to anaethatise(sp) her.
2 months later when she stood for the first time and bore weight it became obvious that her pelvis had also been fractured :( she is very mobile now and although her tail is of no use to her for balance she has compensated...... she can even jump on beds >:{ but ..... had I known that she had a fractured pelvis when she came into care I would have euthanased her ( and cried a lot )....
of course that is out of the question now unless she develops further problems as she gets physically larger that reduce her quality of life.
please don't go off side tracking about Megan !
I only put up this case study to show that even the so called experts can get it all wrong at times :(
cheers jo
From: David the Atheist ® 03/12/2002 13:00:48
Subject: re: Pain in animals post id: 35744
Mistakes are us. Even humans die and suffer more than they should through wrong diagnosis.
But the attempt must not be thwarted by that.
DTA
From: pigman ® 03/12/2002 13:19:06
Subject: re: Pain in animals post id: 35745
The only objective way of measuring pain or stress, is through looking at the stress hormones, such as cortisol (and I always forget the one in birds/chickens)
Subjective measures are just those, what someone not familiar with an animal sees as discomfort may very well be normal behaviour for that animal.
But this is looking at it from a Behavioural and Welfare Science point of view.
;-)
From: mizmolly ® 03/12/2002 13:22:32
Subject: re: Pain in animals post id: 35746
But this is looking at it from a Behavioural and Welfare Science point of view
I like that point of view.
From: pigman ® 03/12/2002 13:25:37
Subject: re: Pain in animals post id: 35747
But this is looking at it from a Behavioural and Welfare Science point of view
I like that point of view.
unfortunately mizmolly it doesn't seem to have the same credence as subjective measures to the lovey-dovey people that are around...
;-)
From: mizmolly ® 03/12/2002 13:30:52
Subject: re: Pain in animals post id: 35748
Maybe, pig...but the view is good from our vantage point.
:)
From: chrisy ® 03/12/2002 13:30:56
Subject: re: Pain in animals post id: 35749
Hi Pigman
Could that approach be tranfered to a situation such as mine ? How practical is it to measure stress hormones ?
or are we destind to rely on *lovey-dovey* measures ?
From: joey ® 03/12/2002 13:32:08
Subject: re: Pain in animals post id: 35751
agreed ..... but the 'lovey dovey' people around would be hard pressed to test the hormone levels of animals/birds coming into care.
In food production animals this research I assume is done regularly.
In the 'lovey doveys' situation other methods have to be employed.
cheers jo
From: pigman ® 03/12/2002 13:34:18
Subject: re: Pain in animals post id: 35752
Pain assessment in animals
The measurement and evaluation of animal welfare and pain is problematic and ultimately subjective because there is no measurable parameter that is specifically indicative of pain. Molony and Kent (1997) suggested that animal pain is an aversive sensory and emotional experience representing an awareness by the animal of damage or threat to the integrity of its tissues. A painful experience, therefore, should result in changes in physiology and behavioural output designed to minimise or avoid further damage, reduce the likelihood of repeating the experience and to ensure recovery from any damage or injury incurred. Direct measurement of subjective experiences or emotions in animals is not possible therefore physiological and behavioural changes to a potentially painful stimulus must be measured and these indices used to provide indirect evidence of an animal experiencing pain. When analysing information on the normal "pain free" behaviour of an animal, it is essential to compare this to any abnormal behaviour. Abnormal behaviours, such as excessive vocalisation (Weary and Fraser 1995; Weary et al. 1998), posture and locomotor activity (Ley et al. 1991; McGlone et al. 1993; Molony and Kent 1997; Whay 1997; McGeown et al. 1999; Thornton and Waterman - Pearson 1999), as well as reduced performance of "normal" behaviours such as feeding (Hassall et al. 1993; Rushen et al. 1993; Gentle et al. 1997) and stereotypical behaviours (which have no obvious function, Zanella et al. 1996), reflect poor welfare status (Gonyou 1994). Therefore, measuring an animal's behaviour may provide information on the emotional state of an animal and if the behaviour is negatively affected by a noxious experience then this provides some evidence of the aversive nature of the stimulus.
there is more to read at that link but I thought I might have exceeded my 10 percent already
From: mizmolly ® 03/12/2002 13:35:03
Subject: re: Pain in animals post id: 35753
unfortunately mizmolly it doesn't seem to have the same credence as subjective measures to the lovey-dovey people that are around
Sorry, this is off topic utterly, but it seems that in all of life, nothing has as much credibility for most people as a subjective measure. You know, I have arthritis, and last night I ate some frog's testicles, and today I'm painfree, ergo frog's testicles are a cure for arthritis.
Why, oh why, is it so?
From: joey ® 03/12/2002 13:38:14
Subject: re: Pain in animals post id: 35754
now why did I get the mental image of lots of little frogs hopping around protecting their dangly bits!
do they even have dangly bits ?
cheers jo
From: mizmolly ® 03/12/2002 13:40:18
Subject: re: Pain in animals post id: 35755
*answers own question*
Well, I'm reading The Rise and Fall of the Third Chimpanzee, so I expect I'll have the answer before too long.
It will be some evolutionary imperative developed as a result of risk-avoiding behaviour...or the like.
And, on the same subject
*warbles away to self*
Why are placebos such successful medicines? And how can I buy shares in the company?
Hmmm. I think I can.
Blackmores.
From: pigman ® 03/12/2002 13:42:04
Subject: re: Pain in animals post id: 35756
well what I was getting at, was that some things which are perceived by certain groups as being wrong and stressful and painful are not when measured by the only real way of measuring pain/stress across systems - ie an objective measure...
and no I don't think you could use them for the things you do everyday, but I think they have some value as to modelling what is normal behaviour and what is "stressed" behaviour...
maybe they be of use to , oh let's say vets, that don't get to see lots of native animals in assessing the difference between perceived behaviour and what is really happening to the animal...
I think there would have to be some kind of quick assay around for measuring cortisol levels, they have dipsticks for everything else these days, the problem would be getting a baseline figure for native animals...
just my musings from a production science point of view
From: pigman ® 03/12/2002 13:43:54
Subject: re: Pain in animals post id: 35758
Why are placebos such successful medicines? And how can I buy shares in the company?
because people are gullible and like a quick and easy fix...
ASX...
From: joey ® 03/12/2002 13:45:37
Subject: re: Pain in animals post id: 35759
"I think there would have to be some kind of quick assay around for measuring cortisol levels, they have dipsticks for everything else these days, the problem would be getting a baseline figure for native animals..."
Hmmm .....I'll ask my vet.....
baseline figures ? Easy :)
as visitors to our property can attest I have some of the least stressed natives you could come across!
cheers jo
From: pigman ® 03/12/2002 13:49:26
Subject: re: Pain in animals post id: 35762
in food production animals this research I assume is done regularly.
In the 'lovey doveys' situation other methods have to be employed.
It would be so good if these statements where always kept apart, unfortunately they never are... to some people research is tainted, no matter how it is done...
as visitors to our property can attest I have some of the least stressed natives you could come across!
ah but how do you know, are they just showing avoidance behaviour... the problem with obtaining baseline figures is that collection from an animal at that point of capture is useless because you are stressing the animal out by collecting from it... it requires longterm canulas so that you can avoid the stress of surgery and build up a 'trust' with the animal...
From: pigman ® 03/12/2002 13:57:45
Subject: re: Pain in animals post id: 35763
Oh and that last paragraph, wasn't meant to be a stir...
it's just something that needs to be thought about in experimental design
From: mizmolly ® 03/12/2002 13:58:47
Subject: re: Pain in animals post id: 35764
Interesting stuff, pig.
I think it is worthwhile to question our assumptions in this way, even if we don't change our modus operandi.
I would belive that *every* animal will try to cover up its infirmity, in an instinctive protective behaviour response. Even domestic animals, I think.
Especially homo sapiens of the male persuasion.
;-)
From: pigman ® 03/12/2002 14:02:54
Subject: re: Pain in animals post id: 35765
I would belive that *every* animal will try to cover up its infirmity, in an instinctive protective behaviour response. Even domestic animals, I think.
Hence a need for a simple objective measure.
;-)
Especially homo sapiens of the male persuasion.
that's alright I'm a Sus scrofus or if I'm feeling domesticated Sus domesticus
From: mizmolly ® 03/12/2002 14:05:32
Subject: re: Pain in animals post id: 35767
LOL.
But seriously, is it a primitive response that makes men so averse to seeking medical help, taking medications, and generally being proactive in that way?
I reckon I might be onto something!
From: mizmolly ® 03/12/2002 14:08:49
Subject: re: Pain in animals post id: 35768
Hence a need for a simple objective measure
Hmmmm. Simple and objective...and cheap and practical. A tall order.
From: pigman ® 03/12/2002 14:11:24
Subject: re: Pain in animals post id: 35769
Simple and objective...and cheap and practical. A tall order
nah, not really... a certain German Drug company uses a dipstick with 11 different squares on it that gives you 11 different assays with levels being determined by colour matching...
it does amongst others leucocytes, bilirubin, glucose, ketones, pH and others...
I'm sure there is already something out there...
From: mizmolly ® 03/12/2002 14:20:42
Subject: re: Pain in animals post id: 35772
Sounds good, excellent in fact. This "stick"... it's dipped in blood? Or urine? Or what?
From: pigman ® 03/12/2002 14:21:23
Subject: re: Pain in animals post id: 35773
blood or urine or water or in our case semen...
;-)
From: mizmolly ® 03/12/2002 14:23:36
Subject: re: Pain in animals post id: 35774
Is it accurate enough to be used on people?
In *our* case, do you mean *you*...or the pigs?
From: pigman ® 03/12/2002 14:25:54
Subject: re: Pain in animals post id: 35776
well it is not a diagnostic tool if that is what you are after...
similar things are used by GPs to do preliminary testing for things like Diabetes, well at least they used to be.
pigs
From: David the Atheist ® 03/12/2002 17:38:26
Subject: re: Pain in animals post id: 35809
I claim no expertise about the chemicals that control pain, but as far as I know, as pain is very subjective, it is near impossible to work out pain levels in humans, let alone other animals.
Correct me if I’m wrong.
DTA
From: pigman ® 03/12/2002 17:42:57
Subject: re: Pain in animals post id: 35810
well to a degree yes...
which is why we need to have a defined way of measuring pain, so that we can take the subjectivity out of it...
behavioural responses differ between individuals thus that is indicative but not much more than that...
corticosteroid levels are a pretty darn good indicated of stress, I just had a look at my notes and you can also use EEG to measure response to stimuli...
;-)
From: David the Atheist ® 03/12/2002 17:46:22
Subject: re: Pain in animals post id: 35811
pigman,
EEG as a response to stimuli sounds great if you wish to induce pain. It doesn't sound to hot for existing pain though. And not many carers have an EEG machine tucked away in the back room.
:-)
DTA
From: David the Atheist ® 03/12/2002 17:51:17
Subject: re: Pain in animals post id: 35812
pigman,
corticosteroid levels are a pretty darn good indicated of stress
But what about pain? Animals, especially wild ones, are stressed by just being in an unusual situation.
DTA
From: pigman ® 03/12/2002 17:53:43
Subject: re: Pain in animals post id: 35813
no very true, but an EEG can also be used to judge a system once a baseline activity has been established...
and as others have said, you can only judge on what you see, which is not an objective measure.
I'm just offering the scientific methods which are being used to measure pain in animals...
which are a hell of a lot more vigorous in their validity than whether the animal is behaving "abnormally"...
read the whole thread David...
I have already said that animals are stressed by the action of measuring, and the method that is used to overcome this...
stress responses are indicative of pain...
From: pigman ® 03/12/2002 17:57:07
Subject: re: Pain in animals post id: 35816
okay a quote from Paul Hemsworth, one of the world's leading Animal Behaviouralists, who I just happen to be a student of...
Pain and Welfare of Animals
Definition of pain: an unpleasant sensory and emotional experience, associated with actual or potential tissue damage
How do we measure pain in animals?
behaviour (posture, vocalization, withdrawal)
neurophysiology (cortisol, heart rate, respiratory rate)
brain activity (EEG, ERP)
From: David the Atheist ® 03/12/2002 17:59:33
Subject: re: Pain in animals post id: 35817
pigman,
stress responses are indicative of pain
Don’t you mean could be indicative of pain. As I just pointed out and you have also, animals would be stressed by the occasion.
I have not heard of humans being measured for pain objectively enough to be able to beprescribe exact medication. Could be wrong though.
DTA
From: pigman ® 03/12/2002 18:03:52
Subject: re: Pain in animals post id: 35819
I have not heard of humans being measured for pain objectively enough to be able to beprescribe exact medication. Could be wrong though.
okay codeine, in panadeine for instance, acts on the same receptors as the corticosteroids...
stress responses are indicative of pain
Don’t you mean could be indicative of pain. As I just pointed out and you have also, animals would be stressed by the occasion.
um by most scientific definitions, animals under stress are in pain, and animals in pain are under stress, the terms are interchangable
From: David the Atheist ® 03/12/2002 18:03:53
Subject: re: Pain in animals post id: 35820
pigman,
Back to square one.
Those things in combination seem a good idea.
Unfortunately we are still left with the “occasion” and lack of expensive equipment in the hands of carers.
How do we measure pain in animals?
behaviour (posture, vocalization, withdrawal)
(heart rate, respiratory rate)
Carers seem to have it pretty well covered…Hey!
DTA
From: David the Atheist ® 03/12/2002 18:06:22
Subject: re: Pain in animals post id: 35822
pigman,
Um by most scientific definitions, animals under stress are in pain, and animals in pain are under stress, the terms are interchangable
I disagree! Are stressed humans necessarily in physical pain?
DTA
From: pigman ® 03/12/2002 18:08:04
Subject: re: Pain in animals post id: 35823
but David, surely you see they can only be indicative of the situation they are in, they are not and cannot ever be taken as objective measures
for measuring between carers, or between production systems - which is where this all comes from - you need an objective measure...
sure they may be a good indicator but they are not the best, and I have never said that they are wrong...
From: David the Atheist ® 03/12/2002 18:08:50
Subject: re: Pain in animals post id: 35824
Gotta go as our two sheep are having stomach pains and I don't want to stress them any more than they already are. Hunger!
Bye :-)
DTA
From: pigman ® 03/12/2002 18:09:21
Subject: re: Pain in animals post id: 35825
I disagree! Are stressed humans necessarily in physical pain?
by definition yes, is the stress causing damage to cells and tissues, most definitely yes
From: pigman ® 03/12/2002 18:10:28
Subject: re: Pain in animals post id: 35826
what you are keeping sheep in an abnormal situation, surely you must see you are in a slight ethical dilemma there...
;-)
From: G-wiz ® 03/12/2002 18:11:01
Subject: re: Pain in animals post id: 35827
"The only objective way of measuring pain or stress, is through looking at the stress hormones, such as cortisol (and I always forget the one in birds/chickens)"
Don't you think it's fair to assume that a creature with a newly broken limb is going to be in considerable pain Pigman? They have a nervous system and pain receptors just like humans do. I agree that stress hormones is a good way to check the health of an animal with no obvious injuries, eg. a battery hen for example.
"Subjective measures are just those, what someone not familiar with an animal sees as discomfort may very well be normal behaviour for that animal."
It's more likely that an inexperienced person would interpret stressed behaviour as normal than vice versa imo.
From: David the Atheist ® 03/12/2002 18:11:13
Subject: re: Pain in animals post id: 35828
pigman,
Of course they are not objective measures. I agree totally, but it’s a bit like democracy, not perfect but the best system we have! At least for the present.
DTA
From: pigman ® 03/12/2002 18:14:48
Subject: re: Pain in animals post id: 35829
Don't you think it's fair to assume that a creature with a newly broken limb is going to be in considerable pain Pigman?
yep, I don't think I have said anywhere that it would not be
It's more likely that an inexperienced person would interpret stressed behaviour as normal than vice versa imo.
In my opinion it depends on how many animals that person has seen, and in my experience it is the way I originally said
From: David the Atheist ® 03/12/2002 18:15:57
Subject: re: Pain in animals post id: 35830
pigman,
Don’t want the sheep, didn’t ask for the sheep, but we have them anyway. The other options are give away or kill them.
We are therefore stuck with the sheep till death do we part. (By natural causes) Hopefully, them first.
I see no moral dilemma.
DTA :)
From: G-wiz ® 03/12/2002 18:17:11
Subject: re: Pain in animals post id: 35832
"Gotta go as our two sheep"
You have sheep DtA? Shame on you! tsk tsk tsk.
From: pigman ® 03/12/2002 18:18:20
Subject: re: Pain in animals post id: 35833
David,
I was just teasing you,
It doesn't worry me what your morals or ethics are, that is the great thing about being individuals we can all have different opinions...
Have a good night
From: G-wiz ® 03/12/2002 18:22:23
Subject: re: Pain in animals post id: 35836
Stressed, sick and injured animals and particularly birds do their utmost to conceal their problems until they are very close to death. It takes a fairly experienced observer to spot the subtle telltale signs of illness in many cases, particularly birds. That's why I believe an inexperienced person would mistake abnormal behaviour for normal.
From: pigman ® 03/12/2002 18:25:21
Subject: re: Pain in animals post id: 35838
Well in my experience of farm animals and taking people around farms, the things people identify as being strange and wrong are just normal behaviour...
I haven't had much to do with birds apart from a few chooks...
IMO
From: joey ® 04/12/2002 12:48:08
Subject: re: Pain in animals post id: 35980
From: G-wiz ® 03/12/2002 18:17:11
Subject: re: Pain in animals post id: 35832
"Gotta go as our two sheep"
You have sheep DtA? Shame on you! tsk tsk tsk.
????? and Toffee.
Toffee I handraised from a newborn :)
He got a great home.
cheers jo
From: boxhead ® 04/12/2002 12:54:32
Subject: re: Pain in animals post id: 35982
Ain't naught wrong with 'aving sheep.
From: David the Atheist ® 04/12/2002 15:40:51
Subject: re: Pain in animals post id: 36020
jo,
Yes, Toffee is the critter and Maynard is his mate. If you take Toffee back you can have Maynard for free!! (Just jokin’)
:-)
DTA
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