Practicing Dhamma – Abidhamma in
Daily Life
- Dialogue with Nina Van Gorkom
* back to my home page: www.suzaki.has.it
Contents
Nina’s Learning Experiences from A.
Sujin
Understanding
of mind- matter relationship
My
Brief Summary Comment of Nina’s Experience with A. Sujin
This
file contains the story of Nina Van Gorkom about her
learning experiences with A. Sujin, the
author of A
Survey of Paramattha Dhammas
(http://www.abhidhamma.org/survey6.pdf.). Nina’s books include Abhidhamma
in Daily Life (http://www.abhidhamma.org/abhid.html
)and Buddhism In Daily Live
(see http://www.abhidhamma.org/buddhism_in_daily_life.htm
), I met her at the dhamma study group at yahoo! Group. Since I only studied their books and
articles briefly, my knowledge of Abhidhamma is very
limited. Yet, I sense there is
something very common in her expression that I can identify with. Since Nina was generous enough to
respond to my questions on abhidhamma, etc., I am
very glad that I got this opportunity to share my view with her. I put my comments in the parenthesis ((..)) although they are more like my monologue. This file may go through another refinement. So, please note that at this moment.
- Kio Suzaki (July 31, 2003)
#23142
by me
(The
dialogue took place at the dhamma study group at Yahoo! Group)
As I am just stopping by, I am hopeful not to
disturb the flow of
the discussion going on here. But
as I read the book, A Survey of
Paramattha
Dhammas perhaps for 4-5 hours worth and 1/3 of it so
far,
I came back with a question that I appreciate it
very much if you
can address for me as much as you must have
gained great benefit
from the book and the interaction with Sujin. Anyway, here is my
question:
Why is it so necessary to analyze the mind and
body phenomena in the
way suggested, i.e., dividing by various terms
to distinguish them
in detail? (This book
points out 16 levels of vipassana nana
(knowledge). 89-129 types of consciousness (citta), 52 types of
mental factor, 28 types of physical phenomenon,
etc.) At least for
me, this is too cumbersome and makes me feels
like losing the
holistic picture although this may be beneficial
for
specifically focused training.
(My sense however is that even the
training/meditation may be too complex.) Furthermore at least from
reading the sutta, it
appears that the Buddha never went into such a
detail. I realize that
once interested and realized the benefit, we
may want to explore to the detail and find the
joy in such
exploration. I just
want to get your personal feedback on this
concern.
Kio
#23160
by Nina
Kiosan,
O Genki desu ka?
I
hope you will stay here, not just passing. Welcome. I appreciate your
interest in Survey. See
below.
op 26-06-2003 20:14 schreef
suzakico op suzaki@p...:
But as I read the book, A Survey of
> Paramattha Dhammas perhaps for 4-5 hours worth and 1/3 of it so far,
> I came back with a question that I
appreciate it very much if you
> can address for me as much as you must have
gained great benefit
> from the book and the interaction with Sujin.
Nina:
This is not a book one can read quickly. It is good to
start looking
up items that you are interested in. Under Samatha: a careful
explanation of
what meditation is, the difference between samatha and vipassana. Under
Realities and Concepts: what are ultimate
realities, paramattha dhammas,
which are actually the objects of vipassana.
The last chapter: about vipassana in daily life.
Suzakico:
Why is it so necessary to analyze the mind and body phenomena in
the
> way suggested, i.e., dividing by various
terms to distinguish them
> in detail? (This
book points out 16 levels of vipassana nana
> (knowledge). 89-129 types of consciousness
(citta), 52 types of
> mental factor, 28 types of physical
phenomenon, etc.) At least for
> me, this is too cumbersome...
N:
Good question. We need you here on dsg.
My experience: more than thirty years ago I
lived in Thailand and went
straight to A. Sujin,
just asking questions. I listened in the morning to
her radio programs in Thai, and in this way
slowly I became used to the
different types of citta,
consciousness. It depends on the individual's
interest how much details he is interested in,
there is no rule. Do not
cumber yourself. Some
basic knowledge about different cittas , rupas,
processes of cittas
are beneficial, a good foundation for vipassana. But it
is best to start in a very simple way: starting
from this moment. Is there
no seeing? We have a
feeling of self who sees, but is this the truth? After
seeing you become attached to what you see, or
you have aversion. Are these moments
not real? These are properties (cetasikas)
arising with types of citta
different from seeing. Seeing sees visible object,
just what appears
through the eyes. Visible
object is not a person or thing, those are
concepts we think of. This
thinking is conditioned by association of
different experiences that are remembered. Visible object is rupa. So long
as we do not distinguish nama
from rupa, we cling to a whole, we cling to
self. ((This is a way
to point the detachment in a different manner.))
Gradually
you learn that cittas are conditioned, conditioned by
past
experiences, by accumulated inclinations. You experience praise and blame,
gain and loss, and these do not stay, they are
beyond control. They are
conditioned
realities. You may come to know that the
understanding of
different moments is helpful for you personally,
in daily life.
The aim of
learning more about different realities is detachment. First
detachment from the idea of self, and later on
from all objects (for the
arahat). ((Why self first? Perhaps, depends on
the background?))
In
the Survey it is helpful to read about citta, so that
we come to know: if
there were no citta,
nothing would appear: no seeing, no thinking. All our
experiences we find so important are merely
different cittas which arise and
then fall away very rapidly. Nobody
can hold them or slow them down.
Nobody can
direct different cittas arising in processes in a
particular order. A. Sujin
helped me to understand simple realities like seeing, hearing, all experiences of objects
through six doors. And this is in complete conformity
with the suttas. Read for example Kindred Sayings IV.
In
the course of all these years my interest in details was growing, but
this should come naturally, no forcing to absorb
all at once. And then: we
should know that intellectual understanding,
though a foundation, is not
direct understanding, vipassana,
which is actually the development of right understanding
of the eightfold Path.
Understanding
of the reality, nama or rupa,
appearing at the present moment (ima, I liked that
kanji). No
spectacular progress, and it is subtle clinging
if we wish for that. A.
Sujin is most helpful to
make us see subtle clinging. I
needed many journeys with her and friends
to discover that. In the course of years
we went in a group of friends to India, and I visited
Thailand many times.
((Learn to see is
OK. What then is the principal
process? ))
We
have aeons of clinging
and ignorance behind us, how can this all be over in a moment? I am just grateful that I was enabled to discover for myself: this is the
right Path, and it works. At least I can begin to
develop it.
But the more we learn, the more we realize: we
are at the level of
Kindergarten. In the
beginning I was at times impatient, but now I am
grateful for every little bit of understanding I
gain. Also the discussions
here in this list help me.
((Nina does not explain
here but it appears the practicing the “quiet observation” is
perhaps found as key. Still,
why not discuss how to uproot the root of sankhara???))
S:
and makes me feels like losing the
> holistic picture although this may be
beneficial for
> specifically focused training. (My sense however is that even the
> training/meditation may be too complex.)
N:
It is not a matter of focussed training, that would make you cling to a
self who can focus. The
aim is detachment. Let realities come as they are,
and when there are conditions for understanding
it will arise without you interfering. The conditions are: association
with a good friend in Dhamma, listening and
study, wise attention, practice in accordance with what you learnt.
((I guess this answer
the question. So,
it appears to be a mild way of attaining the awakening. It does not appear that there is
emphasis on strong determination as in the case of vipassana
meditation.))
S:
Furthermore at least from
> reading the sutta,
it appears that the Buddha never went into such a
> detail.
N:
Also the Abhidhamma is part of the Tipitaka, rehearsed at the first
Council. See Useful
Posts in the archives under Abhidhamma. In the suttas
there are many details about cittas,
but in Abh there are more details. If
you doubt about Abhidhamma: it is mentioned
also in the Vinaya.
I hope Christine can help you with useful links,
also to "Manual of
Abhidhamma"
which is good for a start. My book (on line) Buddhism
in Daily Life is being translated into Japanese,
Rob. K. may tell you more, he lives in
Japan. I lived there many years ago, but forgot the language. I found
Kanji very suitable for expressing realities,
but I forgot it.
S:
By the way, I have some vipassana and Zen background
as shown in
> www.suzaki.has.it
. Personally, Zen appeals to me because of its
> directness.
N:
When in Japan, I found that there are so many Zen sects. Suzuki
became
popular in the West (I read some of his books)
and now people think that all
Zen is only that type. We
have to distinguish different types.
Vipassana appeals to me
because I find it very direct, about simple
realities in daily life. It
helps me to understand my daily life. But no
promise of a quick result, and that is very
realistic.
((Her
term vipassana and mine may have different meaning
tied to the difference in our experiences.))
Nina.
==
Nina san, Kon-nichiwa
> I hope you will stay
here, not just passing
Thank you for the offer! By the way, I used to go to the Netherlands
(the place you live now?) quite often.
But I am happy that this forum helps the
communication so much at ease even if we are so many miles away from each
other. (I live in LA) I am reading your books of ‘survey’ and
‘daily life’ I found on the net. In
the meantime, if you can respond to my question at your leisure, that would be
most helpful.
What I am curious first is to
know your vivid, or perhaps inspiring moment you had at
the earlier/beginning years with A. Sujin. I read some comment from the book on
‘daily life.’ But
more specifically, how was your impression/learning from the first meeting? How skillfully did she bring the
technical matter/Abidhamma–if I may say so- into the
living/daily practice? Any specific
event the you can highlight? Even a tiny incident that brought the
message to you – verbally or behaviorally -may be very helpful. (If you have written such a story
elsewhere, please let me know. So
far, I found ‘survey’ and ‘daily life’ on the net)
In the last post, you said: “I became used to the different types of citta, consciousness.”
What was the few specific incidents in your
early days that you found the glimpse of dhamma?
Then, you said, “it is best
to start in a very simple way: starting from this moment. Is
there no seeing? We have a feeling of self who sees,
but is this the truth? After seeing you become
attached to what you see, or you have aversion. Are
these moments not real? These are properties (cetasikas) arising with types of citta
different from seeing. Seeing sees visible object,
just what appears through the eyes. Visible object is
not a person or thing, those are concepts we think of. This
thinking is conditioned by association of different experiences that are
remembered. Visible object is rupa. So long as we do not distinguish
nama from rupa, we cling to a whole, we cling to self.”
The above sentences indicate:
the aim is understanding of mind-matter relationship,
by dissecting or rather becoming aware of specific happenings that we
experience in our daily life (that we were unaware of before). Such insight will enable us to become
aware of what is going on – in terms of cause and effect relationship to see
the cause of suffering, etc. Such
cause and effect relationship lead to the experiential understanding of four
noble truths. So,
practicing the ‘process’ (may I also say, sila-samadhi-panna?)
will lead to elimination of suffering.
The question: Did this rephrasing/interpretation make sense to you? Or, are you
talking something more specific? Also,
are you saying conditioned thinking is ‘always’ bad, or at times bad? Any comment?
The last point: From just skimming to read Buddhism in
Daily Life, it appears that you do not put high importance in ‘formal’
meditation. Was this the case in
your beginning of the Path? Did you
start to do ‘formal’ meditation later?
If so, how and how effective was it? Or, are you
suggesting that it depends on people?
I realize I already posted
many questions. So,
I stop here. If you could answer in
any way you prefer, I would appreciate it very much!
Ogen
kide! (bow)
Kio
#23249
Dear
Kio,
op 29-06-2003 20:42 schreef
suzakico op suzaki@p...:
> What I am curious first is to know your
vivid, or perhaps inspiring
> moment you had at the earlier/beginning
years with A. Sujin. I read
> some comment from the book on `daily life.' But more specifically,
> how was your impression/learning from the
first meeting? How
> skillfully did she bring the technical
matter/Abidhamma–if I may say
> so- into the living/daily practice? Any specific event the you can
> highlight? Even a
tiny incident that brought the message to you –
> verbally or behaviorally -may be very
helpful.
Nina:I met A. Sujin for the first time in the Wat
Mahathaat temple where a
foreign monk was teaching about the jhanafactors, and also helped us to read
suttas. We read the Parinibbana sutta and the Kesaputta sutta (mostly called
Kalama sutta). I was impressed that you do not have to accept anything
from
others, but have to find out the truth for
yourself. A. Sujin kept
rather to
the background in this temple.
I approached her and said that I
wanted to
learn about meditation that you can apply in
daily life. My
life was very
busy, being in the diplomatic service. (In Japan the teachers at the
language school (nihongo
no gakko de) called me "Mrs
Party". I felt there
must something else in life, not just being
engaged with parties. A. Sujin
said, yes, vipassana
can be developed in daily life, and she
invited me to
her house. From then on
I came several times a week with many questions. I
asked her about belief in God and how to find
out the truth. She answered:
what is truth will appear. She also helped me to see what is
clinging,
clinging to a belief. I
had never considered this before. She said from the
beginning that in the teaching of Dhamma, the
person who teaches is not
important, it is not the person
but it is the Dhamma that matters.
This
was new also for Thais; in Asean countries there is a
great respect for
teachers (sensei!) and people tend to follow
what teachers say, especially
when they are bhikkhus. When teachers wrote about Dhamma in olden times they
would not mention the source of their quotes. A. Sujin greatly contributed
to a change in this mentality, always
encouraging to looking up the texts oneself,
verifying the truth for oneself. She started interest
in the
translations of Commentaries and promoted this. I remember our visits to the
library of Wat Bovornives and our conversations with monks. A friend made
notes and gradually Commentaries in Thai were
printed.
A. Sujin gave lectures
in a temple every Sunday and quoted suttas. She asked a monk ahead of
time about the Commentary to the relevant text. I
tried to look up the suttas
in my English editions.
(This is all for now, it will be continued.)
Nina.
==
#23281
Dear
Kio and all,
My time with A. Sujin. 2.
When I was at her house, she explained about nama and rupa, about kusala citta
and akusala citta. She answered my
questions and very soon made me work for an
English radio program. The first chapters that you
find in Buddhism in Daily Life are from my notes
with my conversations with A. Sujin. Every two weeks
I had to finish a new chapter. It was a busy, but
happy time. She helped me to see that all those
different cittas, cetasikas
and rupas occur in
daily life. I
learnt that whatever occurs is conditioned;
that good and bad inclinations are accumulated
from moment to moment and
that these condition our behaviour. Everything I learnt was relevant to
daily life. ((So, it may have been like on-the-job
training – using daily cases to point the phenomena, what is happening, how we
respond, and what to do about it (perhaps, quiet observation…))
An example: we visited a bhikkhu
who smiled when I told him about my
interest in the teachings. A.
Sujin asked me whether I knew why he smiled.
She explained, because of happy feeling, somanassa. This sounds very
simple, but it made me realize that feeling
conditions our outward appearance. ((Indicating mind-matter/body relationship.))
Conditions,
she reminded me of them in the situation. We were
waiting near a kuti,
a bhikkhu¹s dwelling, for a certain monk. He was not
there and I
suggested that we would find out about him. She said, let us sit at this
stone and just wait and see what happens because of conditions. ((Here, I guess she may have been
teaching observation, detachment, patience, etc.)) We sat quietly
for quite some time. What a good lesson, I am so
grateful for all those reminders I
received in the situation. It is true: we think of people we want to
meet, but in fact, there are only different experiences, such as seeing,
hearing and thinking, and they are all conditioned. Seeing
and hearing are conditioned by kamma, thinking are kusala cittas or akusala cittas
which have as objects the story, a whole of all our impressions. I was used to
take notice only of the outward appearance of people, but now I learnt about
different cittas
which condition our behaviour. People may look very
pleasant and peaceful, but what do we know about the cittas which change
from moment to moment?
((So, these were the
practices of “know thyself” using others and our own situation as examples.))
When crossing a street she said: elements on elements, and it is
so true:
hardness appears, and it is only an element. ((Pointing to the
direct experience as opposed to intellectual understanding.)) We think of feet and street,
but let us consider what can
be directly experienced.
However, it took many years before all these
lessons were absorbed, and I
needed later on
during different journeys many explanations about the
difference between thinking and awareness,
before I understood a little
more. (Later on I come back to this).
A. Sujin
used to go in retreat in a center but one day she realized that
actually daily realities are the objects of vipassana. From then on she did
not go anymore in retreat, and this happened not
so long before I met her.
((This is very interesting. Here is a question of balance. One to de-root the
root of sankhara. The other to practice in daily life paying attention to everything
– and to maintain awareness and equanimity at all times. It may require one to be at certain
level to do this.
Question: The Buddha kept meditation practice throughout his
life. Why?))
Since
most people were not used to this approach, they had many questions
about vipassana in
daily life. I
found this approach the only reasonable one and
did not doubt about its value. We have to know our own
accumulations, our inclinations we take
for self. They appear, and thus, they can be
objects of insight. ((If
this is the reason of daily practice, I see the same possible in meditation as
found in my case and many others.
It is a practice in the controlled setting, yet to be
practiced in daily life obviously.))
A.
Sujin always stressed that there is no rule about how
one should develop
understanding and that one cannot direct what
object appears at a particular
moment. I find this
most reasonable, because whatever is experienced by
citta
is conditioned.
We
went to different temples, also in the province. People
asked questions
about vipassana and
concentration. Although I was just learning Thai, A.
Sujin
made me talk as well. I enjoyed simple life in the province, without
any fringes. People
treated me as one of them, and that is what makes me
happy.
People asked whether slowing down one¹s
movements would help vipassana. A.
Sujin
asked one person to run and to find out whether there is any
difference as to what realities are appearing. The conclusion was : it is
all the same. ((So far as one pays attention carefully
to gain understanding/insight.)) True,
seeing is always seeing, no matter we run or sit. Seeing
is a citta, an
ultimate reality that should be known as it is, non-self. I
heard a dog barking and asked whether hearing a
dog is an object of insight.
She explained that hearing just sound is different from thinking of a dog. ((See
points to the detached observation.
This is to let us see how the mind moves from first receiving the sound
before our conditioned mind to respond.))
I listened,
but only many years later I understood the point.
People also asked: is this kusala,
is that akusala. Her answer:
you can only
know for yourself. ((- Given that person has a calm
detached mind with awareness and equanimity to bring out the insight.)) Nobody else can tell you. She also explained that it would
be very easy if someone else tells you: do first this, then that and
you will make progress. Her
advice always was : there are no rules, there is no
specific order of the objects insight can be developed. ((What about sila-samadhgi-panna?
What about awareness and equanimity, detached
observation, patience, realization of conditioned mind behavior, awareness of
mind-matter relationship, etc., etc.? I feel that there is what I would like
to call a principle way.))
In
the whole of the
Tipitaka we learn about realities that arise because
of conditions and are non-self, now also
in the practice we have to be consistent, how can we force
ourselves to be aware of specific objects. She kept on
warning us of subtle clinging to
progress, to result. Expectations are lobha, attachment.
She
repeated many times: Don’t expect anything.
((Certainly! No
seeking mind!!
If you seek for it, you will not find it.))
We
should not expect anything
from ourselves nor from others. Expectations bring
sorrow. I am grateful for
her example in this matter, and her example of patience and equanimity. Some people
heavily criticized her, but she was always patient and she calmly
explained about cause and effect: what cause
will bring what effect. We should be clear about this. Do
we want only calm or is understanding our aim?
(will be continued).
==
#23306
Thank
you, Nina for these posts. I am reading with the smile
and the curiosity of a
child!
Kio
==
#23321
Dear Kio and all,
Kio asked:
In the last post, you said: "I became used
to the different types of
citta,
consciousness." What was
the few specific incidents in your
early days that you found the glimpse of dhamma?
Nina:
My time with A. Sujin
3.
At breakfast I listened
to A. Sujin’s
radio program and heard time and
again the
terms denoting the different cittas arising in
sense-door processes and mind-door processes.
((I take this is intended
to help honing the awareness to detect what is happening by being mindful. Certainly a way
of practicing detached observation.
However, this is not the naming game.))
Thai
and Pali are very close, and in this way I could learn all these terms. But becoming
used to these terms does not mean
experiencing all the different cittas.
A.
Sujin explained that intellectual
understanding is a foundation for awareness that
can arise later on. She
stressed foundation knowledge, knowledge of the
details of cittas, of their
different characteristics, of cetasikas (mental factors), such as feeling,
akusala
cetasikas, beautiful cetasikas
and rupas. Indeed, as we
read in the
suttas, listening, considering are most
important conditions for the arising of satipatthana,
sati and panna that directly realize characteristics
of
nama
and rupa.
((First, having the
intellectual training like this, and later realizing the point upon actual
experience may enrich, and anchor the point of learning to enhance the
condition for detached observation.
So, I take this is one method to get to that
state of detachment – which is the main objective as mentioned before. However, as anything else, this approach
may have weakness, possibly playing the game of naming and cross
referencing their experiences to sutta, etc. Still, this practice may make people to
grow as they can exchange the views and experiential learning/wisdom along the
way as may be taking place in this dhamma study group.))
((Another point that I
see positive in naming citta, etc., is that it gives
the practitioner the sense of detachment so that he can name what is going on
in the moment. So,
this may put him to be in the seat of observer as opposed to have the false
sense of self. He then is not as
occupied in the problem at hand, having developed this skill to be “objective’
like a scientist. Still, once skill
is developed, it may be ok to throw away the raft/theory instead of carrying
it. I imagine,
the master of this skill may be the owner of the skill in his
body/unconsciousness. So, it
becomes autonomous – like an art.))
We begin to recognize attachment, lobha, and aversion, dosa, in our
lives,
and this is useful, but we should not take this
for awareness. For many
years I thought that thinking was awareness. ((I see the
point. Learning the state of detachment
should bring the wisdom to see the difference. A catch-22 situation. When you experience it, you know it.)) We may think without words, recognize
realities very quickly, but, when we are very sincere, there is still
an idea of self who does so. It is not panna of satipatthana.
I began to know
that laughing is conditioned by lobha
and this made me feel somewhat uneasy when
laughing. ((Uneasy: because her
mind was interfering the state of letting go, still. The name of the game is not to do this
or do that. Rather, be natural…let go.))
I had an idea of wanting to suppress
laughing. Lobha again. A. Sujin explained that we should behave very
naturally, and not force ourselves not to laugh. ((Of course)) Just do everything
that you are used to doing, but in between right
understanding can be developed. ((Yes, the name of the game is effortless effort – nature’s work to
take place – to bring out the wisdom/compassion.))
We have to know our good
moments and our worst moments in a day, she said. I
read a sutta where the
Buddha spoke to the monks about women and compared a woman
to a snake. I
did not like that.* A. Sujin answered that
this sutta can remind
us of our accumulated defilements. If right understanding
is not developed, accumulated defilements can
cause the arising of many kinds of aksuala,
and then we are like a snake. In other words, we
should profit from the message contained
in a sutta, learning how dangerous akusala is. Moreover, by
this sutta the Buddha warned the monks of the danger
of getting involved with women.
A.
Sujin helped me to see the danger of what is accumulated in past lives.
We never know how these accumulations can
condition cittas at the present.
We may do things we did not believe ourselves
capable of.
When I listened to her lectures in the temple I
became sometimes depressed*
when I realized how difficult the development of
right understanding is. ((*conditioned responses))
Would
I ever be able to reach the goal?* But I had no inclinations to look
for another way that could hasten the
development of right understanding. A.
Sujin
explained that clinging to progress will not help us at all. When
we
have more understanding of aeons
we will be less inclined to think of
progress. Before this
life there were aeons of ignorance, and in this life
we are fortunate to be able to listen to the
teachings and begin to
understand the way of development of the
eightfold Path. But it has to be a
long
way before we reach the goal. ((It appears that this is also a conditioned way of seeing….! I would throw
such thinking away.)) We can learn
to accept that this will take more than one
life.*
Time and again
A. Sujin repeated what the Buddha said in the
Exhortation to
the Patimokkha: Patience
is the greatest ascetism. ((Patience in the sense of not expecting…))
Nina
(to be continued).
About
the Principle way
#23352 My
Time with A. Sujin 4.
Dear
Kiyo,
I am only taking out one remark from your
letter.
op
29-06-2003 20:42 schreef suzakico
op suzaki@p...:
> practicing the `process' (may I also say, sila-
> samadhi-panna?)
will lead to elimination of suffering.
My time with A. Sujin. 4
A. Sujin taught me
what is kusala and what is akusala
by her example. The
observing of precepts is not a matter of rules
one has to follow. She
explained that there is no self who can direct
the arising of kusala, that
it is sati which
conditions refraining from akusala and performing kusala. ((Great
force is functioning; rules are to follow: (Jp.)Daiyu Genzen
Kisoku o sonzezu))
Since I was in the diplomatic service I went to
cocktail parties and took
drinks. A. Sujin would never say, don’t drink. She
would explain that it is
sati that makes one refrain from akusala. Gradually I had less
inclinations
to drinking, and this happened because of
conditions. I did not know that
killing snakes or insects was akusala. When I was in A. Sujin¹s
house, we
were having some sweets, and when flies were
eating some crumbs on the
floor, A. Sujin said,
we let them enjoy these too. I had never considered
before to give flies something they would enjoy,
it was a new idea to me. I
learnt more in detail what was kusala, what akusala. I began to refrain from
killing insects and snakes. ((kusala: wholesome act driven by compassion and
wisdom!!))
She
also taught me that it is kusala sila
to pay respect to
monks, because the monks observe so many rules. She
taught me to kneel down and pay respect in the proper
way, touching the floor with forehead and
hands three times. She taught me the importance of the
Vinaya, and she
explained that we laypeople should help the monks by our conduct to
observe the Vinaya. We should not give money to them, but hand it to the
layperson in charge. When
we are in conversation with the monks we should
not chat on matters not related to Dhamma. Together with her elderly father
we visited temples and offered food. We often had lunch with her father in
his favoured
restaurant where they served finely sliced pork (mu han in
Thai). We did not talk
on Dhamma very much at such occasions, but I noticed A.
Sujin¹s feeling of urgency, never being forgetful of the Dhamma, whatever
she was doing. ((Behavior shows…as if from the body.))
I
was clinging very much to Dhamma talks, but throughout the
years I learnt that we do not need to talk on
Dhamma all the time, but that
we should reflect on Dhamma and apply Dhamma in
our life. A. Sujin is always
such an inspiring example of the application of
Dhamma.
When
we read the Visuddhimagga we see the three divisions of sila,
concentration and panna. We may think of a specific order. However,
A. Sujin explained that
this is the order of teaching, that there is not a specific order
according to which we should practise. ((I
see this more as a cycle as in wheel turning. But what she
says sounds pragmatics.))
When
we carefully read about sila,
we see that all degrees of sila are
dealt with, from the lower degrees up
to the highest degrees: the eradication of all defilements. Having kindness
for flies and abstaining from killing is sila. Being respectful to
monks is sila. Being patient
in all situations is sila.
Satipatthana is sila ((Yes,
this is the process oriented view.)):
we should remember the text about restraint of the six doors
by mindfulness. It
is satipatthana which is the condition for abstaining from
akusala.
As
to concentration or calm, this has many degrees. There
is calm with each
kusala
citta. Calm is not a feeling of calm, it means the absence of
akusala. When
we cling to silence and to being calm, there is lobha,
not
calm. Panna has to be very keen to know exactly
which moment is akusala and which moment of
kusala, otherwise we shall not know the
characteristic of calm.
When there is awareness of nama or rupa there is also true calm at that
moment. As panna grows, calm
grows as well. The eradication of defilements
is the highest degree of calm. A. Sujin
often stressed: when there is right awareness of a nama
or rupa there is at that moment higher sila, higher calm and higher panna.
Nina.
(to be continued)
==
Dear
Kio,
op 29-06-2003 20:42 schreef
suzakico op suzaki@p...:
> are you saying
> conditioned thinking is `always' bad, or at
times bad? Any comment?
N:
My time with A. Sujin. 5.
A. Sujin helped me to
see what is akusala and what is kusala
in the
situation of daily life. She
often said, the teachings are not in
the
book, they are directed to the practice of
everyday life. Also
the
Abhidhamma
is not technical, it helps us to have a more refined and detailed knowledge
of different cittas as they occur at this moment. When I said that I had enjoyed
reading a beautiful sutta, she answered, It is so sad
when we only think of what is in the book, when
we do not apply it. I realized that we
may cling to what we read instead of seeing it as a reminder to develop understanding. ((Should
be used as guideline…To me, Abhidhamma may be
compared to a map. We need to walk!))
A. Sujin introduced me
to her friends at her house, where they consulted
books of the Tipitaka
and discussed points of the Dhamma. She explained to
me, All we study and discuss is not just for
ourselves, it is to be shared
with others. This
impressed me very much because I knew very little about
sharing kusala with
others. It had not occurred to me that even studying
the
teachings is not just for oneself.
She
would always help me to have more
kusala
cittas. When we were in a
temple and we had things to offer to the
monks she would hand the gifts and books to me,
asking me to present them. I was
glad to have the opportunity to pay respect to the Triple Gem and show
my reverence to the monks. In
fact she was helping others all the time to have
kusala cittas. We visited Khun Kesinee who wanted to print my book Buddhism
in Daily Life. Khun Kesinee said, Khun
Sujin has given me life.
This was so true, because she taught us all a new outlook on life, she
taught us how right understanding can be
developed in our ordinary daily
life. She taught us to
develop understanding of all phenomena of life in a
natural way. Her
daughter Khun Amara wrote The
Lives and Psalms of the
Buddha’s Disciples, inspired by the Thera-therigatha. These are the
stories of men and women in the Buddha’s time
who proved in their daily
lives that the Path can be developed and
enlightenment be attained.
A.
Sujin and I were very busy to correct the printing
proofs of my book,
sometimes at night. When
we had not heard anything from the printer and I
wondered about this, she just answered, No news. This was a good lesson to leave things to
conditions and not to expect anything.
Later on I thought
many times of these words. It
is clinging when we expect things to be the
way we like them to be.
I
was glad to meet many of her friends and take part in their life of giving
and sharing. We went to
temples together with A. Sujin, presenting dana, or
attending cremation ceremonies.
On Sunday I drove A. Sujin
to the temple
where she gave lectures on satipatthana
and afterwards we sat outside the
temple where people asked her more questions
about awareness in daily life.
Her lectures were put on tape for a radio
program. In the course of years
the radio stations which
sent out her program expanded all over Thailand and to
neighbouring countries.
I
accompanied A. Sujin to different places where people
had invited her for
a lecture. People were
wondering whether there can be awareness of nama and
rupa
while driving a car. The answer was that it is just
the same as being
at home, it is normal life. Seeing,
thinking or hardness appear time and
again. When walking on
the street we discussed seeing and thinking of
concepts. There were
holes in the pavement and if one would only be aware of colour
and seeing but not think, one would fall into the holes. We
learn
that in
the ultimate sense there are only nama and rupa, that there are no people, no
things. ((May tie to the
notion of nothingness.)) This does not mean that we should not think of people and
things. Also thinking
of concepts is part of our daily life, we could not function
without thinking of concepts. Thinking is a conditioned reality, it is nama, not self. We can think with different types of citta,
some are kusala
and many are akusala. In the
development of satipatthana, we come to know
our daily life just as it is.
Nina.
==
#23525
Dear
Kio,
you wrote:
How skillfully did she bring the technical
matter/Abidhamma–if I may say so-into the
living/daily practice? Any specific event the you can highlight?
My time with A. Sujin. 6.
I left Thailand after almost five years, but
there were opportunities to
return many times and take part in pilgrimages
to India and Sri Lanka
together with A. Sujin. She taught at the Thai language school to foreigners
and several of them took an interest in the
teachings. Among them were the
late Bhikkhu Dhammadharo and Jonothan Abbot. Later on I also met Sarah who visited
me from England. I found discussions on the Dhamma
very useful since these helped me to
clear up misunderstandings about nama and rupa. I had correspondance
with people all over the world and this also helped me
to clarify for myself the meaning of satipatthana in daily life.
People
are always wondering how to act in order to have more understanding. A.
Sujin would stress that we should not think of ourselves, and that we become less
selfish by paying more attention to the needs of others. This is
a simple advice, but it is very basic. We cling to ourselves all the time, but
the aim is detachment from
the idea of self. If we are always selfish,
how can we become detached? On
all the India trips she would speak about the
perfections which should be developed together
with satipatthana.
Generosity, metta,
patience are essential qualities that should be
developed, they are conditions for thinking less
of ourselves. I learnt a
great deal from my Thai friends on these trips. I noticed how alert they
were to help others, even with small gestures. When we are sitting with
others at the table for a meal, we can notice
whether we take hold of dishes
or reach for food only with the idea of wanting
things for ourselves, or
whether we are also attentive to the needs of
others. I began to understand
that there are countless moments of thinking of ourselves.
I
learnt in the situation
of daily life that when kusala citta
arises, there is a short moment of detachment. However, very shortly after kusala
citta we are likely to
cling to an idea of my kusala. Generosity is only a perfection
if we do not expect anything for ourselves, if it
leads to less clinging. The aim of the
development of perfections is detachment,
eradication of defilements.
((It still appears that the
aim is achieved through daily practice of detachment –
which should be the case. However according
to my experience, large dose of meditation as in vipassana
may accelerate the eradication of defilements.))
A.
Sujin would often
remind us of the application of the Dhamma in the
situation, reminding us that at each moment
there is a new situation. Each
moment is conditioned. Whatever
we experience through the senses, be it
pleasant or unpleasant is conditioned
by kamma.
Once
during a pilgrimage we stayed
in a Thai Temple where different rooms were assigned to our group. I received the worst
room, without bathroom and full of mosquitoes. I could
hardly sleep and the next day I complained about
this. I was used to having Vip
treatment in the diplomatic service but A. Sujin
helped me to see that unpleasant experiences
are conditioned. Nama is nama and rupa is rupa, and
it is not important what status of life people
have.
((What does this statement
mean? Indicating detachment,
confirming the state of “it is as it is” perhaps. But it appears
that referring to nama and rupa
seem to confirm the situation tied with Abhidhamma. But what is
that? At the end, is this not the
same as mindfulness?))
She
asked me whether I was
not glad afterwards to have those experiences. I
agreed because now I found such experiences
a good lesson. She helped us to understand kamma and vipaka
((fruition/results)) in the situation.
When people believed that they should try to be in another
situation,
different from the present one, in order to have
more conditions for sati,
A. Sujin explained
that seeing here is the same as seeing in another place,
hearing here is the same as hearing in another
place. ((Pointing
here and now. Not to seek but to be. There is no use of living in other place
than here and now.)) Seeing
is always seeing and hearing is always hearing,
they are ultimate realities with their unalterable
characteristics. We learnt that the Abhidhamma is not theory, that it can be directly applied, and this is satipatthana.
((By being reminded by A. Sujun over and over, Nina could absorb the lesson over time,
perhaps.))
She
would often remind
us, And how about this moment now? Whatever questions
people asked, she
would always guide them to the present moment. ((no use of the wandering mind to direct our life…))
Phra Dhammadharo said that
he was sometimes lost for a long time, without
sati. A. Sujin answered that this shows that one has to develop
right
understanding in daily life,
that one has to understand one’s natural life. ((i.e., detached, choiceless observation)) Then one can
see the conditions for different namas and rupas, conditions one has
accumulated. ((This corresponds to wisdom gained in
practice. In each sati, there is
detached observation and insight to realize the truth.)) One can check for oneself whether there
is clinging to nama
and rupa.
We
need the Vinaya, the Suttanta
and the Abhidhamma to support the
development of right understanding. We should listen, study and consider the Dhamma. Panna cannot suddenly arise. When we have intellectual understanding we
can compare this with a plant that has to grow. We see
at first buds, and we do not know yet
when it will bloom. This will happen when the
conditions are right.
((So, my view is: Abhidhamma is seen as a guide
as if to check or verify the understanding or guide people for that
understanding. Still, is it not too
complex for that purpose? – at least for some?))
Nina.
==
Dear
Kio,
op 29-06-2003 20:42 schreef
suzakico op suzaki@p...:
> the aim is understanding of mind-
> matter relationship, by dissecting or
rather becoming aware of
> specific happenings that we experience in
our daily life (that we
> were unaware of before). Such
insight will enable us to become
> aware of what is going on – in terms of
cause and effect
> relationship
My Time with A. Sujin
7.
During a pilgrimage in India with A. Sujin, Phra Dhammadharo,
Jonothan and other friends
we discussed Dhamma all night in the train to Bodhgaya. During that night we
discussed the difference between thinking of nama and
rupa and direct
awareness of them. We may notice that realities appear
through different doorways, that sound is
experienced through ears and hardness is experienced
through the body sense. However, we may take noticing
realities ((by mind I presume)) for direct
awareness of them.
A. Sujin
said, You may believe, I have
developed a great deal of understanding, I sees
that there is nothing else
but nama
and rupa.
She then explained that in reality this is only
thinking, not direct understanding of one nama or rupa at a time. Hearing is nama,
it experiences sound. Sound is rupa,
it does not experience anything.
((I think this means no
experience in mind even though there may be experience of vibration in the
ear/body - perhaps corresponding to Zen idea of no-mind.))
When hearing arises we
think almost immediately of the meaning of the sound, its
origin, of words which were spoken and the meaning of those words.
((Maybe, but does not have to be….is the point. Or, if it
arises, letting go is the point.))
Thinking is another type
of nama, different from hearing. Her
remarks were an eye-opener
to me.
((Perhaps, in the sense
that they all come and go from moment to moment without any substance in each
of them. Or, just pointing that rupa and nama are different.))
This
shows again how important discussions on the Dhamma are. Without
them our misunderstandings of the Dhamma would not appear. ((could appear?)) That
night in the train passed very quickly, and before we realized
it we were in Bodhgaya. One of our friends offered breakfast to Phra
Dhammadharo
and to the Samanera (novice) who was also present.
We
also stayed in Varanasi, in Hotel de Paris. When we were walking in the
garden of that hotel, we heard a band with
drums, and immediately we had an image of people
marching and playing. A. Sujin explained that we build up stories on
account of what we experience through the senses. ((indicating
the play of the conditioned mind with monkey in it?!))
Sound,
hearing and thinking
are ultimate realities, the stories we think of are concepts or ideas,
different from ultimate realities. ((Rather, they are conditioned without
substance by themselves - emptiness.)) It is difficult to
distinguish different realities, it is direct
understanding, panna, that is able to do so. Panna cannot suddenly arise, it
is gradually developed by studying,
considering what we learn, discussing, asking
questions.
We
may be thinking of ourselves and others, walking in the garden of Hotel
de Paris, but if we die now, the story comes to
an end. Actually, each
citta
that falls away is a moment of dying. ((as if it performed the mission
of its own.)) With
the citta that falls away, the
story comes to an end. Many
years later Lodewijk and I walked to Hotel de
Paris again, and then we saw that it had become
neglected and that nothing
of it’s old glory was
left.
If
we try to separate nama from
rupa or if we try to think of both nama and
rupa,
there is only thinking, no awareness of either of them. ((Because of ‘trying’…as if to shade/cover “what is” right there.))
One
may believe that knowing what is going on is right awareness.
Someone
may know that he sees or that he hears, but that
is not satipaììhåna. ((She said this before…to distinguish
knowing and directly experiencing.)) When right awareness
arises it is mindful of the characteristics of nåma
and rúpa as they appear
one at a time. Right
mindfulness and right understanding arise when
there are conditions for their arising. They are conditioned by study,
listening and considering the Dhamma one heard.
((Conditioned but in the
good sense – tied to dhamma?! Need to be checked and verified at each moment as
if from the very ground, however.))
Throughout all these years
with A. Sujin we discussed again and again what seeing is: the experience of
what appears through eyesense. We
discussed what hearing is: the experience
of what appears through the earsense. We are always forgetful of
seeing and hearing, because we are more interested in concepts such as
people, things and events. We can never be reminded
enough of nåma and rúpa, because these are
ultimate realities paññå has to understand.
((To reflect my past, I
hear/see things ‘differently’ compared to previous to
my first 10-day vipassana retreat. My body senses things differently. as if it
is more living, vivid, and expressive.
It is more of an immediate sense – without any interpretation. Ms. Okamura talks it
is like touching a live wire, which I can identify with. I wonder if there was any similar
expression from A. Sujin?))
((Still, I wonder if
anyone can “explain” in words what direct experience is, which is what you
indicated that you and A. Sujin shared. Perhaps, being close to someone for a
long time and sharing the experience, seeing her expression, behavior,
movement, etc. provided the opportunity of conveying the points beyond
words. I sense the expression here
appears pretty much the same. It is
as if internalized in the body/unconsciousness.))
Right understanding
of nåma and rúpa leads to
detachment from the idea of self. ((Again and again, this is the main message. The word, ‘understanding’ seem to point the direct experience of what is.))
We were reminded that awareness is not self, it
cannot be induced. ((Pointing that one should not mix ‘awareness’ with mind…)) A. Sujin asked
us: Who is aware? When we answered, Awareness is aware,
she said, That is in the book, but in your mind? Such remarks made us realize how much
we are still clinging to the idea of my awareness.
((A. Sujin
is cautioning to not to hang on to the book knowledge and the play of monkey
mind, but pointing to directly experiencing what is going on from moment to
moment.))
((However, what comes out of IT may
need to be found, e.g., wisdom and compassion
‘applied’ in our daily life although they may be seen as a natural outcome from
that state.))
Nina.
==
Dear
Kio,
here is the last of my series.
Unless you have more questions :-)
op 29-06-2003 20:42 schreef
suzakico op suzaki@p...:
> Such insight will enable us to become
> aware of what is going on – in terms of
cause and effect
> relationship to see the cause of suffering,
etc. Such cause and
> effect relationship lead to the
experiential understanding of four
> noble truths. So,
practicing the `process' (may I also say, sila-
> samadhi-panna?)
will lead to elimination of suffering.
My Time with A. Sujin. 8.
My husband and I took part of many excursions
with A. Sujin and other
friends whenever we visited Thailand again. We went to nature reserves in
the north of Thailand, to Nakom
Phanom and other places in the provinces.
For our Dhamma discussions A. Sujin always tries to arrange for pleasant
surroundings and a relaxed atmosphere. With the help of her sister Khun
Jeed and our friend Khun Duangduen she sees to it
that we have delicious and well-balanced
meals. There is no end to their hospitality. The right climate and suitable
food can be favourable conditions for the citta that develops right
understanding. During our visits to Thailand and
during our
pilgrimages to India we discussed Dhamma and
whenever we talked about
personal problems in daily life, she would give
us the most practical
advice. This helped us
to see our problems in the light of the Dhamma.
When we discussed deep
subjects of the Dhamma such as the Dependent origination
and the four noble Truths, she would always
relate these to our daily life.
We read in the Tipitaka
about the four noble Truths: dukkha, the cause of
dukkha which
is craving, the cessation of dukkha which is nibbåna and the
way leading to the cessation of dukkha, which is the eightfold Path.
A. Sujin stressed that
we should not have merely theoretical understanding
of the four noble Truths. Dukkha and the cause of dukkha
pertain to our life
at this moment. The way
leading to the cessation is the development of right
understanding of the realities appearing at this
moment. When insight has
been developed stage by stage nibbåna can be
attained.
We
read in the "Kindred Sayings" (V, 420, Dhamma-Cakkappavattana
vagga, §1),
that the Buddha said, ³in short, the five khandhas are dukkha². When the
arising and falling away of nåma
and rúpa , thus their impermanence, is realized,
dukkha can be understood. ((As
experiential wisdom))
What falls away immediately is not worth clinging to, it
is dukkha.
We have to develop insight stage by stage. We have to develop understanding of
hardness when it appears through the body sense during all our activities
in daily life. We do
not have to think, this is hard, and we do not have to think
of the place where it touches; its characteristic can be
known when it appears. ((Thus, moment to moment practice))
Gradually
we can learn that the characteristic of nåma is
different from the characteristic of rúpa. When we take nåma and rúpa
as a whole,
the arising and falling away of nåma and rúpa as they appear one at a time
cannot be realized.
((Again, I sense that this
statement is pointing us to achieve the state as of here and now, awareness and
equanimity, mindfulness, or no-mind (as in Zen). Then, having this state throughout our
daily life brings to us the grounded sense to realize the impermanence,
emptiness, no self, and quietude (of nibbana). Also, it
facilitates releases the binding and to achieve unbinding state in our daily
life whenever the binding starts to take effect as a work of sankhara to tie
the knot. In
short, this is the state of Samadhi that brings out the wisdom/compassion and
therefore, the release insight.))
They
can not be realized as dukkha
and we shall continue
to take them for a person or a thing that exists. ((“Exists”
in the sense of having certain substance, the opposite of detachment,
perhaps? In other words, don’t let the mind deluded to jump into the (wrong) conclusion.))
Craving, the cause of dukkha,
arises time and again and it causes us to
continue in the cycle of birth and death. A. Sujin reminded us to be aware
of clinging at this moment. We should know
when there is clinging to
awareness, to having a great deal of
understanding. If we do not realize
such moments we do not follow the right Path. Intellectual understanding of
the fact that each reality arises because of its
own conditions can help us
to follow the right Path, and then we shall not
be inclined to try to select
particular realities as objects of mindfulness
and try to make mindfulness
arise.
((The
expression is unclear here. My view
is: Being in-attentive to the rise of such clinging, we get behind in taking
action to be mindful
(which is no action or passive observation). The earlier the exposure of the problem
state, the easier to take action to be mindful and be able to release the
binding power – so to speak. Or, she may be pointing that theory – as found as reality in
the predecessor - and practice need to be harmonized so that there is no
conflict between them, indicating the ‘dynamic’ practice of dhamma.))
It arises because of its
own conditions. She said, ‘Awareness is like
an atom in a day’, meaning that there are not
many moments. How could this be
otherwise; we have accumulated such a great deal of ignorance. ((Sankhara))
We are in the cycle of
birth and death, and during this cycle, cittas arise
and fall away, succeeding one another. Each citta that falls away
conditions the arising of the following citta, and in this way all wholesome and unwholesome
qualities of the past have been accumulated from moment to moment. Even so all wholesome and unwholesome qualities that arise
at the present are accumulated
and they will condition our life in the future.
((So, just realize the
way it is…))
When ignorance
arises today, it does so because it is conditioned by past moments of
ignorance, even during aeons. When
understanding arises today, it does so because it is
conditioned by past moments of understanding. ((As if
acquired good habit, perhaps.))
Even if there is
a short moment of right understanding now, it is
not lost, it is accumulated and thus there
are conditions for its arising later on. A. Sujin said that this is like saving a penny a day, which
can become a big fortune.
((So, keep on realizing these…))
During
all our journeys and visits to Thailand she stressed that the four
noble Truths are realized in different phases. First there should be firm
understanding of what the object of right
understanding is and how right
understanding should be developed. This is the first phase (sacca ñåna,
understanding of the truth). When
understanding of the truth, the first
phase, is firmly established, one will not deviate from the right
Path, that
is, right awareness and precise understanding of
the characteristic of the reality that appears. The first phase
is the foundation of the practice,
which is the second phase (kicca
ñåna, understanding of the task). This
again is the foundation of the realization of
the truth (kata ñåna,
understanding of what has been done). ((Know the process…of wisdom generation
so to speak.))
I
remember that we were walking in India with one of the Thai monks and that A. Sujin
was repeatedly stressing these three phases. Hearing
the Dhamma again and again helps us to remember what
was explained and to reflect on it. When we read about the four noble Truths we may not
realize that they can
only be understood and applied in different
phases and that we can begin right now.
((Here, my understanding
of the four noble truths are:. 1) realize that the
suffering exist, 2) realize the cause of the suffering – so become able to
detect the work of sankhara, 3) practice elimination of suffering by passive
observation and equanimity, mindfulness, etc. as discussed above, and 4)
practice the way of elimination of suffering one after the other – from moment
to moment. Also,
to take away the root of sankhara by continued practice of vipassana. So, the phases includes the short term
ones as in moment to moment (daily practice) and the long term ones as in long
meditative work of vipassana to work on the deep root
of sankhara (practice in retreat, and daily meditation.))
((It may
be understood that those who are healthy, like A Sujin
I presume, does not have to go to the hospital any more. She is pretty much cured/healed to be
away from the hospital (i.e., heavy duty meditation). In case of the Buddha, however, my view
is that he kept on going through heavy duty meditation so that he can share the
way to the nibbana considering various
tendencies/profiles of people – certainly not just his own but for many others.))
A. Sujin would
always remind us that there is seeing at this
moment. We do not have
to be in a quiet place to understand seeing; there is
seeing no matter where we are.
Seeing can gradually be known as a reality
that experiences only what appears through the
eyes, visible object.
((Certainly, there is no
other place and time than now to practice.
As in some Zen monks ‘skipped’ zazen/meditation,
e.g., Hui Neng, Bankei, et. al., I see it very refreshing
that A. Sujin seemed to ‘live’ in the similar if not
the same way. Obviously, each
individual’s situation cannot be measured or compared without
the full knowledge of the situation (which is impossible). Still, I sense that she did the
meditation for some years and stopped to do so simply to focus on each moment,
which is the meditation practiced from moment to moment anyway.))
This
is the beginning
of the first phase of understanding the four noble truths.
The Buddha taught the development of
understanding of our life at this very
moment. The Abhidhamma is not technical, not theoretical, it teaches
about
citta,
cetasika and rúpa,
realities arising all the time. I am most grateful
to A. Sujin for
pointing out to us time and again that we should understand our
life at this very moment. What
she explained is completely in conformity with
the Buddha¹s teachings.
Nina.
==
To
finish this file, here are two points that come into my mind. The first one is the story of Ms. Okamura
who was close to Daisetz Suzuki in his last 15 or so years. Her case was as if an analogy of Nina
and A. Sujin except that she lived with Daisetz when
she was still a young girl to help his last years as secretary. She was fascinated in Daisetz himself
and learned the “teaching” from her pores, so I imagine. I have talked with her over the phone
many times to hear her impression and various stories about Daisetz. Our discussion usually lasts one hour or
so, and I feel great to share and confirm some of my views on Zen, Daisetz’s life, etc. in such occasion. I learned a lot about Daisetz from her
as if I could check and cross check the idea I picked up from 50 or so books I
read written by Daisetz and by others who wrote about Daisetz as well as by my
personal experiences.
Second point is about the approaches of living the dhamma life. Whether abhidhamma, meditation, or else, it appears that these approaches may be seen as different entry points or ways to go across the river to the other shore. This is a subtlety here, but let me try anyway. Many times, especially those who have attained certain level of progress, they may think that their approach is ‘the’ approach as evidenced by their own undeniable experience. Yet, it also appears that when truly mastered, as found in the analogy of carrying the raft (corresponding to techniques or means to go across the river), it may be seen as not as useful to dwell on it. True master does not need to depend on the technique, description of theory, etc. as the skill is imbedded in him and that there is no difference between, him, theory, and practice of techniques. They may use these to communicate the point. But the critical point is to be found in the way they live from moment to moment. This, I think, is the point as Zen master, Ikkyu, said, Many paths lead from the foot of the mountain. But at the peak, we all gaze at the single bright moon.
Thank
you, Nina, to take time to share with me about your time with A. Sujin. I feel
that there were many points conveyed and to be lived in our own lives. If you can comment to any of my comments
mentioned above, I would be most happy to hear it. Otherwise, we might communicate in
different occasion in the future I hope.
- Kio
====
(These are
taken from a few posts found at the dhamma study group. Note that because of the large volume of
post there, I skimmed to read only few posts that caught my attention.)
#23337 Putting into Practice
I
have a question about the Abhidhamma, as discussed
here. From what
> I've read here, there are cittas that arise and fall away. While
I
> can, at an academic/conceptual level
"understand" what the theory is,
> my question is, how are they experienced?
Nina:Only panna
can realize the true nature of nama and rupa, and later on
their arising and falling away.
How does panna arise:
because of the appropriate conditions: studying,
listening, pondering over what you heard,
considering nama and rupa
in daily life.
The goal is: less clinging to an idea of self. This means, the development
which is right should lead to less clinging to
self, and this from the
beginning. Each person
can only verify for himself whether he is on the
right track leading to this goal.
The Abhidhamma helps
us to see that at each moment there is momentary death. Hearing arises,
but it falls away, it dies. Thinking arises, but it
falls
away. Each citta experiences only one object. Hearing
experiences sound,
thinking experiences a story or concept of a dog. Seeing experiences visible
object. Nobody can
direct the different cittas which each experience
only
one object. They all
proceed according to conditions.
When
we notice that a dog is barking there is already thinking of a story,
not hearing. Hearing
only hears sound, nothing else, it does not think. The
Abhidhamma
helps us to understand that there are different processes of
cittas,
that a sense-door process is not the same as a mind-door process.
This is an approach different from science which
has another field and
another objective.
But
it will take a long time of considering and being aware before we really
know: it is only seeing that sees, it is hearing
that hears, it is thinking
that thinks, no self.
D:
With practice, do you actually discern the different elements?
Is it
> possible to seperate "sound" from "barking
dog"?
> It's been my
impression that many here are not big on meditation.
N:
It depends on what you mean by meditation. Is vipassana developed in
daily life not mental development, bhavana? Both samatha
and vipassana are
bhavana. Not everyone
has skill to attain jhana, but there are also four
meditation subjects for every occasion, for
daily life, as you may have read
in former posts: recollection of the Triple Gem,
metta, recollection of
death and the foulness of the body. Samatha is a way of kusala. But right
understanding is needed for both samatha and vipassana. ((i.e., panna for the process of s. and v.))
Mindfulness of breathing is a most difficult
subject of meditation, it is
very subtle. Before one
realizes it there is already clinging to breath,
clinging to progress.
I
have not read anywhere in the scriptures that the Buddha said that
everybody should have mindfulness of breathing
first. See in the archives:
anapanasati. I made a study
of it, also of the Co to the anapanasati sutta.
Jon and Rob Ep had a
long discussion about this. To whom did the Buddha
address this sutta? To monks who were ripe for enlightenment, even
arahatship. ((Different practices for different levels,
perhaps. ))
Some
monks had accumulated skill for jhana and they could
attain jhana
with this subject. But, after emerging from jhana, they had to be mindful of nama and rupa,
also the cetasikas which are the jhanafactors. In
their case jhana was
the proximate cause of insight. This is all very
carefully explained in the commentary. Also in the Visuddhimagga. In the end nama
and rupa have to be realized as non-self, no matter
one develops first samatha
to the degree of jhana or not. ((Getting
the sense of rupa (Physical phenomenon) away from nama (Mental phenomenon), I sense
this is very Zen! This is detachment – or may I say more than detachment to point
that potentiality/Buddha nature?
Words used are different but the state is very similar if not the same. Actually, it refreshes as if new
dimension is gained.))
D: Is there another way to train the mind to
break each moment apart into
> these elementary cittas?
N: If we try to separate different
elements, we do not let panna work its
way. We try to
interfere, there is an idea of self who tries to do this. It
will not be helpful to try to break each moment
apart, and it is impossible. Panna
and sati arise because of conditions and when the conditions are right,
panna can develop. Patience is needed.
I will continue with this subject in my series. When delving into my
memories I realize how long it took me before I
gained a little more
understanding. I have
to stress the word little.
Nina.
#23414
Dear
Howard,
op 12-07-2003 16:20 schreef
upasaka@a...
op upasaka@a...:
> The idea that all there actually
> appear are interrelated, interdependent, and
empty phenomena that do not last
> and, thus, cannot satisfy, is fascinating. The direct realization of this,
> provided that the mind is calm and nonreactive, can be delightful and
> liberating.
> What is essential, I think, is being calm
and nonreactive, and letting go.
>
--------------------------------------------------------
Nina: It is liberating, but, as I see it, Panna should be stressed as
foremost. When panna understands people and things we like so much as only
nama
and rupa, they become less attractive, and in that
way detachment can grow.
True calm is absence of defilements and as panna
grows calm also
grows, but panna is
the leader, the forerunner.
The development
of panna leading to detachment is an endlessly long
process. ((Why should this be
expressed like this? To
prepare people that the journey is long? For each moment, there is a possibility
to be aware and be equanimous if we work on it with ‘effortless effort.’))
We should consider the four stages of
enlightenment. The sotapanna
has no
more wrong view of self, but still clings to nama and rupa. The
ariyan of
the second stage, the once-returner,
still clings, but his clinging has
decreased. The ariyan of the third stage does not cling to sense objects
anymore, but has other, more subtle forms of
clinging. The arahat has
eradicated all clinging. This
is not only in the Abhidhamma Pitaka,
it is
also in the Suttanta. Another example that the three parts of the Tipitaka
are one.
When
I, for example, read the "Kindred Sayings"(IV) , Kindred Sayings on
Sense, it is stressed that the objects appearing
one at a time through the
six doors should be understood.
In IV, 133, § 151, to what purpose? We read
that the Buddha said, "It is for the full
understanding of dukkha, friend,
that the righteous life is lived under Gotama the recluse." When it
is asked
what this dukkha is,
the answer is: the eye... objects.. eye-contact, etc.
We should know the elements, the khandhas, the ayatanas. We should also know akusala
as it is. Knowing, understanding, clear comprehension,
that is what is emphasized,
page after page.
Nina.
((At this moment, I
wonder the efficiency compared to say, Zen approach, although the process
applied here by Nina (perhaps fairly common in
Theravada) may work well with certain profile of people. It appears however that an aim is the
same: to know emptiness, and annata as well as annica and liberation. ))
#23427
Hi
Andrew,
op 14-07-2003 02:16 schreef
Andrew op athel60@t...:
> Dhamma is a way
> of finding out what makes the illusion seem
so real. Many people
> don't want to know. Lots
like myself go through periods of time when
> we don't want to know.
N: Very good, Andrew. All
the people, things, stories we find so important
are only, only, nama
and rupa. Life is like an
empty fist, when we open our
hand there is nothing there. A
whole story is only one moment of thinking
and then gone. But
true, we do not like to see that there are only nama
and
rupa.
We do not have to force ourselves not to
enjoy life, but the moments
of enjoyment are nama
and can be realized as such. A lot is
gained when in
between enjoyment there are some moments of
understanding the truth.
Nina.
Here are
my brief comment of pitfalls that I can think of:
1) For meditators: Some may think sitting would do the
job. Thus, forget the practice of mindfulness
in daily life from moment to moment.
2) Those who study Abhidhamma:
Some may start to play the intellectual game of referring sutta,
etc. and create a gap between intellect and daily practice.
3) Those who focus
daily practice without deep meditation: May miss the uninterrupted/focused
effort – to know thyself deeply.
Thus, it may take time to get the point.
So, 1), 2), and 3) may need to be balanced. Each individual’s case may be different,
however.))
* Have a good day, good life!
* back to my home page: www.suzaki.has.it