About Compassion (2442, etc.), Goad (2605, etc.), and Tears (2618-2619) #s from the Universe of Zen (UOZ)

Sila, Samadhi, Prajna, Compassion, Goad, and Tears *

Dear Yani (UOZ 2424, Sue)

I followed your link and I can see WHY 'sila' is included as part of the process. There are similar expectations of new converts to Christianity. But I think your teacher makes the same mistake that the Christian ones do. He emphasises the 'defilement' aspect of certain emotions - anger, passion etc. - which immediately sets up an aversion to those emotions in contrast to 'good' emotions such as (presumably) joy, love etc. My position would be that there is no such thing as 'bad' emotions - emotions just are. In my experience if you want to get rid of something in your life it is no good to try to push it out. If you rather introduce more of what you want to replace it with then it gets pushed out anyway. By seeing anger as 'defilement' when it occurs you are in a dilemma trying to observe with equanimity something that you already feel negative about. (does this make any sense?) My approach is to accept emotions without judging them, anger or joy is the same. To accept and observe them with 'loving acceptance' and to observe them emerging until their origin within myself becomes visible.

I suppose that I was, as you said (some time ago), living 'sila' in a way; although we are not so concerned about 'killing' in the west and only abstained from alchohol for the day prior to meditation. (Although I don't usually drink a lot anyway.) My comments (at the time) about the ultimate futility of seeing this as a goal of perfection still stand.

Sue Dragon

==

Dear Will Bro (UOZ #2429 Sue)

It seems to me that we three have achieved the same orbit through three very different routes. You through an intellectual process (do stop me if you disagree) Yanavira through a behavioral process and myself through an emotional process. Although, within each experience I suspect that there are elements of the others. The miracle is that our experiences are so similar. Which just confirms my (previously unproven) belief that 'enlightenment' is a universal potential which can be reached in any culture given the will of the individual. What do you think?

Dragon

====

Hi Wil, Sue and Bush. (UOZ #2433 Yanavira) Sila, Samadhi, Prajna

Yes. You’re right that Goenka teach 3 steps, those are actually from Noble Eightfold Path. Sila, Samadhi and Panna. The first two steps are not unique anyway in teaching of the Buddha, since both were famous before his enlightment and in every religion, such as Christian. I suppose you have known that Sila, beneficial though it is, cannot be maintained by sheer force or will. Developing Samadhi will help, but this is only a partial solution that won’t work at the depths of mind where the roots of problem & impurities lie. As those roots remain buried in the unconscious, there can be no real, lasting happiness, no liberation.

So, the third step is described clearly, and that comes the experience, which is same as Wilbro’s and Sue’s. The third step is what Buddha found, the training of wisdom, the unique element in his teachings, to which he gave the highest importance.

"If it is supported by morality, concentration is very fruitful and beneficial. If it is supported by concentration, wisdom is very fruitful and beneficial. If it is supported by wisdom, the mind becomes freed of all defilements."—So you see, although morality and concentration are good, but their real purpose is to lead to wisdom. It is only and only developing the thirds step, panna or wisdom or "place" of Wilbro, that we find a truth middle path. By practicing morality we avoid actions that cause the grossest forms of mental agitation. By concentrating mind, we further calm it and at the same time shape it into an effective tool, which is to undertake the work of self-examination. It is only by developing wisdom that we can penetrate into the reality within and free ourselves of all ignorance and attachments.

Experience this,
The entire world is ablaze,
The entire world is going up in smoke,
The entire world is burning,
The entire world is vibrating.

Nyanavira

==

Wilbro (2434)

Bushman, I will proffer another possible view. When you say there from the first, you are also taking the Socratic view. Many have that view. I have a different view (wouldn't you know it). It does not affect the orbit, only the description of its measure. I think we begin with undifferentiated awareness, which becomes differentiated in our contact with the world we were born into. In that differentiation process, a false identity becomes lodged in self-reflection, and it is the false identity that must be rooted out.

That false identity is the temporal identity that reduces Presence to the present moment, that instant between a future that is gone before it is sensed, and a past that can not be changed. This lack of control is that which we are trying to escape. What we uncover is our mature nature; it is a matter of understanding, or so I see it.

==

<<From Me Re: Sue's Post #2429>> 2442

Stars on the Orbit

Please correct if what I say is wrong or not to the point:

If what you three have "arrived" is the process ( or should I say end is the means and vice versa, or you call it the orbit, I guess), it may be possible that in the specific route each of you have taken, there are elements of process embedded - before rewiring may have taken place. Say, they are intellectual, behavioral, and emotional routes as Sue suggests. While it may not be wise to generalize or simplify, nor fair to make a comment from the sideline, I am yet curious to "see" if there may be a picture that may come out from these three stars on the orbit.

• Wilbro's case: While he may appear to take (or have taken) the intellectual route, in fact, he refers to chest pains, etc. to observe the (emotional) reaction in him in his Guide. His quiet center keeps the reaction in the startle box, and let it resolve by itself, which he calls as release insight. His "abstract" or intellectual approach helps to clarify issues and help us go through the "scientific" process.

• Sue's case: While she may appear to take (or have taken) the emotional route, referring to sensation and breathing and letting emotion to express itself while observing and adding "heat" or love from her "watcher" or "golden ball", somehow her intellectual ability found a place to be integrated - with images and parables. Her poetic view tied with intellectual insight seems to bring yet unique dimension.

• Yanavira's case: Except for emphasis on "sila", "awareness and equanimity" and "prajna" seems to equate to the process of Sue or Wilbro. What strikes me is the compassionate sense that comes across from his posts. (If there is a chance to meet him in Japan or elsewhere, this will be the point I am most interested in to talk about.)

So, these are my impressions. Still, I may be seeing something that is not there or I may not be seeing something that is there. In any case, the stars on the orbits are often far and unclear in my eyes. But I am sure that there is an universal principle for all stars to follow the course. One question I have is on the subject of compassion: how the stars on the orbit may point the finger on it and/or behaviorally process it. I have seen posts indicating ways you have processed but have not seen any posts "focused" on that subject. Perhaps, it may be a difficult subject to talk about. But I thought I would pose a question anyway.

Stars

I see stars, and even try to measure their orbits every now and then.

I also wonder how they are to do with the people on earth, or we are to do with them.

Are they contained in the box far away - observing us what happens here?

Or is it simply a case of people bound by themselves to think like this?

Thank you.

==

<<Wilbro>>

suzaki san, I don't think I am qualified to speak to compassion. I am simply not sure what it refers to. I am not even sure I have "it," whatever "it" is.

I am bothered by the implication that someone in orbit, a bad metaphor, one I should never have thought of, has something more. The truth of the matter is the opposite. This so-called arriving is not a gain, but a loss. It is simply the seeing through and the throwing off of an assumed, and unnecessary, identity. Since that identity tends to recreate itself, it is a either a matter of staying awake to its subtle re-creation or shucking it off when it become gross.

==

Hi Suzaki,

When people ask me why I always smile, I say that I smile because I can smile. I smile because I am happy. I am happy because I aware and in equanimity. And because I am aware, wisdom and compassion become naturally.

May all beings be peaceful.
Nyanavira.

==

<<From Me>>

Thank you so much for the responses. Wilbro san, I like the clarification process --- always. I think it is OK for a mind to move so far as we are aware of its function. Nyanavira san, thank you for the notion that compassion and wisdom being representative of nature. And especially, Wilbro san and Sue san, I appreciate the time and efforts both of you have taken to communicate extensively with me in spite of my slow learning/unlearning process. I see nothing but compassion that I sense in that process. A point as I see is: if you think it is compassion, there is no such thing any more. Compassion is not compassion, it is Compassion. So, please let the action speak by itself.

BTW, whenever I throw a stone to the pond, there is always a reflection coming back to me. Whatever the reason is, my finger moved and I went on typing the following. Any feed back is most welcome.:

1. Zen is only found in the most natural state of mind - when we are present. It is a genuine way of living at the flash point of creation. Then, whatever action or symptom that follows from such state is just what is. There is nothing but that what is as direct experience in the purest form.

2. Yet, whatever the reason, we have this thinking hat and words, logic, and image to come with it, so we are given with possibility to use this brain to communicate with each other and utilize such faculty in our day-to-day life.
3. So far as our mind is capable of capturing whatever happened in the past in terms of neuro-programming and that the thinking brain did not come with the operating manual, we may find ourselves bound by our own mis-use of this ability. When this happens, it makes us to be at the natural state, as described in 1), not sustainable, e.g., mind moves "not" freely.
4. The orbit is a way to untrain ourselves from such a binding process to get back to the fresh, natural, genuine state. Along the way, there is a release insight, an experience that comes with unbinding process. So far as we use this thinking brain, this process of release is to be had as if we need to keep the conduit open to be at the natural state.
5. The process of "observing" ourselves, using intellectual, emotional, physical, behavioral or whatever means will help to detect any sign of misalignment so that we can remain in the right path.
6. As we become good at doing this, the process may become autonomous such that we can use the potential of all we have in a harmonious manner. As such process fits the nature's way, we feel right, genuine, and happy in such a state. We do not need any external reason to be happy any more. Life flows as it is meant to be.
7. However, as much as we are the result of the past programming, i.e., karma, and that certain programming takes place or already have taken place in the deep part of our mind, it requires rewiring/revamping. It requires certain training/untraining to reach there to have good process control to carry out our life again to be in the natural state. This process is a never-ending process.
8. Whether in DNA, or experiences we received while young, good past programming will help like a tree's trunk for the tree to grow further. But bad programming will consume our life energy. So, again, we need to find a way to align to the right path.
9. Explorers in the past on this path left us with words, which are dead unless captured and brought to life by the next explorers. Sila, samadhi, and prajna. Eightfold path. Six paramita may be seen in such light. These may be seen as our genuine inner states exhibiting in our behavior. Words are simply used to communicate the ideas.
10. Being on the path, we may find us practicing all of these ideas. Ultimately, our life should represent the path, the way, the dharma. Emphasis may differ for each person due to the past programming, but we need to have the wisdom and compassion to capture the messages. So, these words of the past may be seen as a will, training guide as well as application guide for check and balance.
11. When we are on the path, we may find our living as means and end by itself. So the state of 1) is restored while we find us living as we wish and yet not violate the basic principles of life. In other words, basics in 9) and everything become natural - not dogmatic.
12. Because of the past programming and the passage one takes, some may look more advanced to live along the path than others. Yet, there is no perfect mastery. In this path, no master will think that he is the master - if he is the master. Perhaps, without knowing, the master simply wishes to help create the master and learn from every opportunity. Again, the process is never ending.
13. We are all born without knowing why we are born, or what is the way to live. Yet, we may realize that we are the solution by ourselves, eternally new, eternally learning - learning from the words, wind, three-year old kid, and among ourselves.
14. Then, we may see us learning, acting, confirming, and being in the state of awareness and creation - all done simultaneously. As we are then one with the nature's way on our path, we feel right in what we do. If we don't, we go back to the process as mentioned in 5) and or to follow the way.
15. As much as a tree grows by its brunches and leaves searching the path that suit to express itself well, we also go through this process billions of times in our life to clarify the way - consciously and unconsciously.
16. If we expand the vision to see the whole human society, we can see the same process applied there. As we see miseries and disasters in the world, we know that we are a part of it. The process is an interactive, convoluted one like we find in our brain neuron networks.
17. What it means is that in addition to feedback like those in 5), we can picture a large-scale interactive process taking place at the total human level, if not at the total universe level. We are a part of the whole, while we have our own universe at the same time.
18. Using the term of Wilbro, we see the quiet center, or I call X, observing quietly and shining lights to bring out the insight and creative life energy to be processed as it is meant to be. This may equate to fighting against the law of entropy as living being.
19. Then, we may find all living being are going through the same process. Because we can see this, and find the fragility in us while we sense yet undeniable nature of this life force that we are one with, we are awe stricken. Only human can sense this.
20. Because of impurity of human nature coming from the thinking capability, ego, original sin, etc., we can see purity and have a potential to appreciate the work done and being done by this unknown force.
21. While it is magic to witness this, we are the magic itself. Then, we see our life also representing the universe - being one with the movement and energy of the universe.
22. We cannot know all and do not have to know all. But by always keep searching and clarifying the way, and doing what we can to grow our tree - for peace and happiness, we may live our life as it is meant to be.

<<Wilbro 2498>>

((xxx)), you are right. I was being cruel to goad you as I have. I have never claimed to be compassionate. I have no idea of what the word means. Oh, yes, I can read the dictionary, but unless I am the meaning, what happens to the meaning when I close the book? Socrates made a career of asking what "virtue" meant, and showing that words could not provide that answer.

My intent in this club is clear. Well, maybe not. Let me make it clear. I think that if we slumber in our conditioned shell we will never free ourselves from it. My intent is to awaken those who slumber to their conditioned shell by shaking that shell. My whole take on this may be deluded, but that is what I am up to. If there is no shell, then my shaking can only engender laughter. If I am deluded, please humour an old man by growling from time to time.

So speaketh the Shell Man. Which of the three shells is the pea beneath?

==

<<From Me 2503>>

Tears.. Wilbro san.. Tears…

==

<<From Me>> (Observing posts with somewhat negative tone…)

Have a Cup of Tea

Yesterday, I visited Mary's home.
She showed me around the garden.

This morning, I sat in the sun.
I saw cloud moving and heard wind in the trees.

Birds are singing now,
And my knees do not hurt any more.

==

<<From Yanavira>>

Have a Cup of Tea

There is no more virtuous merit than loving-kindness of the heart.
There is no sweeter joy than quietness of the mind.
There is no purer truth than realizing the essence of impermanence.
There is no more noble religion than development of wisdom.
There is no greater philosophy than the teaching of the way to test truth for ourselves in the present moment.

May all beings throughout the universe be happy.
A Nyanavira.

==

<<From Me>>

Tears.. Nyanavira san… Tears…

===

<<From Yanavira>>

And I am glad to receive a cup of tea today, Mr. Suzaki. It is tasteful!

==

<<Wilbro>>

((xxx)), you are being nasty. If you want to pick on ((yyy)), do it mano a womano. I got enlightened by seeing the error of my way. It is not knowing what the truth is, but knowing what the error is, for when the error is eradicated, what can be left but the truth? See, keep your eye on the error and wipe it out as it arises. This notion of looking for the truth is a gross error. But please, you need not think about what I am saying. Thinking is not good for you.

==

<<From Me>>

Game…

Sometime ago, I read a parable that went like this:

There were a devil and his friend walking on the path. Then, they saw a man picking up something from the ground.

A friend asked: "What did he pick up?"

Devil: "He picked up the truth."

Friend: "That will be the problem for you!"

Devil: "Don't worry, it is all taken care of. You see what happens as that fellow's got words and mind to play with it."

*Wish we all learn the art of using our words and mind without deluding ourselves. We are all working to get the point across or to receive the blessing or insight. May all beings throughout the universe be happy. (This is what I call the H-maximization of the universe, and the passage we take.)

==

<<Wilbro>> 2585

nyana, again I intrude. I fear I have not the compassion that you possess. The only reflection I make before I apply what I have called the Goad (and look up the definition, please, so as not to misunderstand me), is whether or not the other is a seeker. If the other is not a seeker, I leave well enough alone. If the other is a seeker, that reaction, when reflected upon, provides necessary information. If equanimity is not in place, a Goad will produce an angry reaction. The point has been made. Equanimity can not be practiced. Either the Goad passes through or it hits home. If it passes through, there is no rising. If it touches the nerve, and there is equanimity, the subtle rising is seen and dissolved. If it hits home, if it immediately becomes gross, the error is in place.

The subtle is in the middle of the gross, not out of the gross. Bring awareness to the gross, and the subtle will make itself known. Attempt to escape the gross, or control the gross, and the subtle will forever flee. Forgive the preacher that rises to assume the role of knowing. The words just must find their way into the light of communication. Who am I to try to control such an outburst? Now, I can forget what was said.

==

<<Yanavira>>

Hi Wilbro,

You are the only one who interested to intrude me. I am very pleased. However, may you be patience with my slowness? There is an important point that I thought very interesting from your reply.

Equanimity cannot be practiced. (But I have practiced equanimity before and it worked.)

Later you mentioned about the Goad in a very clear way. I remembered about sensation. In order to develop experiential wisdom, we must aware of what we actually experience, that is we must develop awareness of sensations. By sensations we can experience reality directly. Unless something comes into contact with the five physical senses (mind), it does not exist for us. These are gates through which we encounter the world, the bases, for all experience. And whenever anything comes into contact with the six sensory bases, a sensation occurs.

Later, if we are aware at the point where the process of reaction begins—that is, if we are aware of the sensations—we can choose not to allow any reaction to occur or to intensify. Thus we observe the sensation without reacting, neither liking nor disliking it. It has no chance to develop into craving or aversion, into powerful emotion that can overwhelm me; it simply arises and passes away. The mind remains balanced, peaceful. We are happy now, and of course we can anticipate happiness in the future because we have not reacted. (Actually this is my answer too to my friend in post 3 besides taking breath as an object)

This is your experience too, isn’t it?

Nyanavira

==

Hi nyana, let's clear up the practice point. When I say something can not be practiced, I mean it in the sense that until the one who practices it is that practice, that something is not. I am distinguishing between someone who thinks they are practicing and someone who does it. I make that distinction for polemical purposes to show the distinction. I practice equanimity by tuning myself to the place where the sensations, as you call them, form, or come into awareness. I do it a lot while driving. I simply tell myself to stay out of it, and I am along for the ride. But, you need to get there first, otherwise the gesture does not work. That is what I mean by not being able to be practiced. Have I made that clear? If not, I'll gladly try again.

What you are describing, I describe as being with the fact. We begin after the fact, observe the reactions to after the fact and that observation works us "back" into with the fact. You are describing my experience of it with different words, but I recognize it. I tend to use the description that seems to me to describe what is going on in practical experiential terms. Your terms, as the perception of sensations, are cleaner than mine, and much clearer for general descriptive purposes.

==

<<Wilbro - response to Bush>> 2629

"So now one might wonder how to remove the 'me' identity' from memory in an authentic and lasting fashion?" Yes, indeed, one might wonder. Where did you suddenly find that scholarly voice? Have you been hiding your light under that proverbial bushel?

I think nyana put it best when he said that one must find oneself at that spot where there is perception of sensations as they rise. As to how best to get there, I can only speak to my 'path.' Anyway, that Me has a feel about it that can be recognized and it can be released before it forms the identity. There are times when it gets partially formed before it is recognized and released. The energy gets released and there is a small trip of sorts. There are times when it gets fully formed and there is nothing to do but ride it out. The more this process goes on, the easier it is to catch it as it forms. One sure way to form it, at least in my experience, is to begin talking about its taming. Sometimes, that form is necessary if there is any guiding to be done. Lasting fashion? No way that I know of.

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<<Yanavira>> 2630

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<<From Me>> response to 2585
Goad

Wilbro san, that is also the technique I have used quite often as a management consultant. As you know quite well, there is a delicate balance in practicing it as some people may get confused (actually that is part of the process) or just upset and leave (one top executive mentioned that he wanted to leave in the middle of my seminar for example). All Zen masters use "Goad" as a way if not "the" way. Koan process is nothing but full of goad. (Of course, if amateurs use this, it can create a disaster.) Even silence or ignoring to respond is a way of "Goading". You may never know what may be really happening at the time until it is resolved or to pass through the gate so to speak. When I see what is really happening, I feel the infinite level of compassion behind.

To get across a message that cannot be easily gotten across is a difficult task. In my practice, I have certain level of belief/faith to think that that is the right way. Hopefully it is not stubbornness or arrogance, but I reflect on such a point every now and then. Actually, when I posed #2442 on compassion that was in a way, my way of goading. (Perhaps, you figured it out.) I was not sure if I was qualified to try out in this setting, but I wanted to give it a try anyway. (Of course, I sensed I would learn something along the way.) When I do it, I often feel like throwing a stone into a pond without knowing what may come back. Only certain level of faith would make me to do so. As waves propagated and interacted with each other as I saw on this club, there was various learning I got originated from that single post. Hope it was OK. If there was sore feeling left by anyone, I am sorry for that. ((Please take it as a secondary goad.))

Connected to this, a post by Yanavira san #2576 indicated his way of pushing an issue and I felt very interested to read it. It appears that his Just a Post series of article is taken from the people who go through the Vipassana process. As I know Vipassana except from few reading, this is my pure speculation. Yet, it seems that Yanavira san consult with them as an instructor/facilitator where certain level of "Goading" may take place - and diaries used to facilitate the process. (In my case, I remember some people mentioned to me that the realization came after a while - even weeks later.) Again, if we are all well being goaded, and learn the lessons well, we may realize how deep the compassion is. When we are in the process, vulnerable feeling may come along the way. But it seems that that is when the real test is on.

As you mentioned somewhere, Wilbro san, or should I say, Captain Goad, you have placed all the cards on the table. To even talk about "Goading" openly, it certainly appears to be the case. While we may not still realize how the cards are being played when we are in the middle of it, it is but our own task to figure it out. (BTW, My analysis to decode the dialogue between Sue and Wilbro san, which I posted on my home page was my attempt to figure out such a goading process.) And, I believe such "Goading" process is quite necessary and to be applied here - no matter how difficult the task may be. Goading may be seen like "life threatening" to invoke inner response that is the core of what this is all about, as I see it. So please, keep on "Goading" among other approaches you may use.

Thank you.

==

<<Sue Dragon>>

Hi Suzaki-san

I recognise my own experience in the 'goad' discussion that you have been having. It is rather like my 'heat' analogy. I think we have to have practiced on ourselves before trying it on other people. As you say, it can be dangerous to use it indiscriminately or unmindfully. Indeed, it is an imposition and an interference, if done without knowledge and compassion it is the worst kind of arrogance. Hopefully, as Wilbro says, the target will survive if there is nothing to goad; this could be described as an 'exploratory goad'. There is a 'pointing goad' also which indicates an area that may need some work. A third one is the 'sore point goad' which sees an open sore and presses on it. This one is the most dangerous and potentially cruel. (This is the one that wives use most often on their husbands. Ha ha!) I havn't actually verbalised this before as I work on instinct usually (having practiced on my husband for many years). I think it is important not to go around indiscriminately applying goads, there has to be a willingness in the target (as Wilbro says), compassion and expertise in the 'goader' (as Yani says) and a certain trust between the two (which you indicate in 'faith' above). This is why we should choose our 'masters' carefully - if you are going to let someone mess around in your head it's a good idea to make sure that they have your best interests at heart!

Dragon

==

<<Bush>>

Delusions cannot be cleared away through philosophy or theories. Delusions are very real and must be replaced by something more real than they are.

The goader must know something of the goades dilusions for the goad to be of use.

Can that be done in this forum?
Bush Man - A willing lamb to the slaughter.

==

<<From Me>>2605

Hi, Bush! If I may call you so. Call me Kio. I am a management consultant - a very dubious job that any person/company should be careful before hiring one. Especially, a person like me as all I did was to ask questions like "So what?" most of the time to get to the point and clean up the management process. So, I am somewhat familiar to "Goading" process as I have done it quite often in my profession.

Anyway, let's get to the point - even though I am just a side liner watching the game in play with Champaign on my hand now. (I hope the reason will become clear sometime in the future.) What I thought with this blurred mind is to make a comment just to encourage you to go through the process - because I believe it is good for you if you have willingness to go through it. So, here are my three cents:

1. You mentioned: "Bush Man - A willing lamb to the slaughter."

As far as I am concerned, this is the best attitude to go through "Goading." I do not know if you will survive because I am not sure if I may, either. But if you "really" maintain such an attitude, you may have a chance. Otherwise, "Don't bother" is my suggestion. I have not reviewed the past "goading" that has already taken place in any depth. So, I cannot say the likelihood of your survival. You may well be slaughtered. But, to me, "only if" you keep such an attitude, you may have a chance. It may take years as well depend on how you do it…. (Again, side liner commenting. So, don't just believe what I say.)

2. You said, "Can that be done in this forum?"

If you have the attitude like 1), this should be a secondary concern - unless the point in 1) was a joke. So, here is one hurdle already existing that you need to be clear of. Only you can do this job. OK, there may be a difficulty. But if we are talking about Wilbro, as far as I can tell, he has played all his cards already in front of you. There is no guarantee that he will play this game with you any longer - in any meaningful way. It is solely your choice in my view. And, I am not to talk about why or why not on this point, either. Again, because ultimately, it is up to you. (Sorry for me to say this way - me coming out of nowhere. But this is the basic point. So forgive me or just ignore it.)

So, from the sideline, and if I am really seeing a willing lamb to the slaughter house, here are "my suggestion/goading" for you:

1. Read all pertinent posts and everything related to it to see how "goading" has taken place and handled in the past. (Also, say, if numbers of goading post to your post is, say, 1:2. This ratio has to be reversed. In other words, you dissipate your energy outward as opposed to direct it to where it should go internally and apply the heat to where it belongs.)
2. Digest, internalize, do all possible you can - but on your own as much as possible - to find the key messages in 1) which may include key approach, principle process, indication, strategy of goading, etc. etc. If you will, you can report back the finding.
3. If you start to do this sincerely, you may find that you are starting to goad to yourself as well. (like internal dialogue) So, the process will start to be contained more inside…. And find no place to go but to resolve on your own. Tough, but that is what it is as far as I know.
4. Then, perhaps, with all humility, with all humbleness, with all meekness, and the worst vulnerable feeling you ever had, you may do the best shot you can, not knowing if that will do any good anyway. Then, perhaps, then, the condition is set.
5. I saw you argue here and there if I recall. That seems to be going to the wrong direction if I may say so. The job has to be done internally- within yourself - until the point when you realize that you survived and found that there is nothing to be goaded any more.
6. And if you do not like reading this, I am sorry but for me that is all I can think of, given the situation. Perhaps I am going overboard and quite irresponsible to say this way. However, I saw Wilbro's compassionless compassion being played out. I just thought to "throw a stone" into this pond, hoping that it may possibly contribute to the process.

Obviously, I do not know you and I can not judge if you want to go through this, nor if you think this makes sense, either. But, if I were you, those are the points I would work on. I am sure we are different and I know that there are different ways to climb up the mountain. If this did not ring a bell, please disregard. I am just a guy on the side line anyway. Good luck and take care on your journey!!!

Sincerely,

Kio

==

Kio

I took it positively and I will take care.

Sincerely,
Bush

==

<<From Me>>2618,2619

Inquiry about Tears

Aha!, Sigh, Tears, Laugh, Anger… these are various responses we experience in life. Some are coming from deeper part of our mind while all are personalized experiences. Especially about tears…I am very curious to understand what it is if anybody here can share any views on this.

Generally speaking, tears seem to represent a release mechanism - like something is connected and water (tears) pouring out of the well. So, it must be a link somewhere in our neuron/nerve network. If it discharges unsettled energy as tears, and we feel settled afterward, it must be something to do with the nature's way of healing. Despair and tears may be closely related. Despair, perhaps like goading, seems to push us to the corner and eventually release something in us. Perhaps anger and other responses are similar. What seems to be important here is that it is the "letting go" process that is natural, instead of suppressing the feeling artificially. Still, what may be the message delivered from such an experience, I wonder. In case of anger, we may often find that it is due to our shortsightedness. But, tears seem to do with something much deeper, and more profound if I may say so.

Feeling compassion, or connecting to love or something wonderful, beautiful, sad, unavoidable with dramas in life or even with movies or stories that we identify with, something opens up in us or some kind of pure, genuine event takes place when tears flow. Perhaps, it is a kind of "direct experience" when we are in touch with that "unknown" and hence there is no need to describe it any further. So, without clear reason, the tears just flow when they flow. What is there is that oneness, connection, touching with vast unknown that we find when we cannot humanly endure any more. Then, something suddenly breaks up and releases itself.

If it cleanses our mind and brings it back to the zero-base, what is in there? Nothing and everything? Painful death and the birth of the universe at that instance? Inspiration seems to represents a new connection of neuron. Tears also seem to represent a connection at deep level. (Or, is it a breaking up of neuron network, trying to come up with new stable state?) It is like finding oneself in a totally vulnerable situation, i.e., no place else to go, and finally this energy is released like when it gushes out to some kind of a free or new state. Here, the former is called wisdom and the latter is called compassion, like there are Bodhissatvas of wisdom and compassion. They may look different on surface but somehow basic mechanism seems to be the same or very similar to me. There is some kind of energy release followed up by the build-up or confirmation of the initiative to go on with life in both cases.

So, when tears flow, there seem to be even a sense of comfort, say in the middle of sadness. This is just like the freedom is found when we get to the point of nothing to loose, nowhere to go. It appears to me that this is the state where the view of "It is not OK"(This world) is superimposed with the view of "It is OK"(Absolute affirmation). Again, barriers are gone or dissolved when we get to that point - and even finding the resolution with energy and newly confirmed spirit generated from somewhere for us to move on with our life courageously. So, tears are like any other natural phenomenon, e.g., when we are hurt, there is a responding pain as a part of release mechanism. Nothing to talk about and yet everything (some sort of answer) is already there. And if there is Zen, I wonder how Zen or say Mahayana may relate to this topic. I realize that there are redundant and awkward expressions I put together here, and one simple response may be "direct experience is just direct experience". Yet, tears being such a pure experience of human life as I see it, if there is anyone who may be able to say anything about this topic to bring insight, I would appreciate it very much. I see this is a matter of deep human nature anyway.

From The Little Prince ( - right before he was to go back to his star):

"..I shall look as if I were dead.."
-- I said nothing.

"..I cannot carry this body with me.."

-- I said nothing.

"..There is nothing sad about old shells."

-- I said nothing.

"..I, too, shall look at the stars…"

-- I said nothing.

"..I shall have five million springs of fresh water.."

And he too said nothing more, because he was crying…

==

Susaki san

Your productivity of words shamed me and this post goaded me into finally writing a first draft of the compassion essay that I promised you ages ago and which I have been meaning to write for years. It has taken me all day and half the night but it is finally posted (complete with my personal hallmark grammatical errors because I HATE grammar checking programmes) in my briefcase. It's about 9 pages but no source references as I don't keep stuff like that in my head. Constructive criticism welcome. (That's a dangerous thing to say in here!) Now I can get on with my other 'homework'! Kierkegaard here I come!

Sue

==

<<Sue>> ((I condensed to what appear to be the key points)) ((The whole essay is in her yahoo briefcase.))

The Compassionate Heart

If God IS Love then the two words are interchangeable and therefore any statement including either of the words can be restated with the other word and should still make sense. The two words then make an effective check on the veracity of any claim for either. 'Love hurts' for instance, checked with 'God hurts' is clearly a false claim; if it hurts it isn't 'love' but some other thing. In this way we eliminate the false claims for 'love' and 'God' and therefore arrive at a clearer map of the nature of this loving God.

In Christianity, Jesus Christ provides a bridge between God and humanity. In Buddhism, 'enlightenment' is the route to resolution. If people all over the world are trying, through religious thought, to resolve this separation then there must be a universal condition of humanity regardless of culture. If it is a universal condition then how can we explain it universally?

God is Love. The human condition is one of separation from God. Humanity is universally trying to resolve this separation. There is an internal God-provided solution.

Eden

What could intrude on this Eden? We must look back to the first event. The primary event that corrupted the 'innocence' of life. What if, in this perfect world, one day a tree fell in its old age, as trees do naturally to renew the forest. What if, in this natural event the small and well-loved child of the ancestor, playing happily while the parents gathered. What if she fell and died beneath the falling tree. What pain the parents would experience. Suddenly the perfect circle of love is broken by absence. That love that renewed itself in circularity is no longer returned. The child is gone and can no longer return the love given. Yet the parents still feel that love for the child. How is the circle to be reconstructed. ((I think there is no grief in Eden..or if there is, it will not last long. So, I think this ancestor may have lived halfway between Eden and this world.))

Grief as a reaction to loss

Tears

One of the universal qualities of grief is tears. Tears are the means by which we move towards the God and away from the Not-God. Tears are the indicator that this process is active, if something spontaneously generates tears then this is an area requiring healing and resolution.

Healing and Resolution

The Hospice Movement

Bereavement

The process of Bereavement is seen to follow a pattern. Tears are seen as a necessary part of the process of grief-resolution. The absence of tears often indicates a 'stuckness' until resolution and acceptance is achieved. Even then, remembrance of the loved one can generate spontaneous tears for long periods of time after the death has occurred. 'Cruse', the Bereavement Counselling organisation, estimate two years as an average resolution and readjustment period for widows/widowers grieving their spouses.

Charismatic Christianity

Christian groups involved in the Charismatic movement in England in the 1980's opened up the possibility of emotional healing in their services. Previously staid English churches suddenly found people weeping spontaneously when affected by 'the Holy Spirit of God'. Whilst apparently enraptured in joy and amazement and mentally transported into the presence of God, people found tears rolling down their faces and having no explanation for them. The early Methodist movement (a 19th century English Protestant Movement) reported similar events. Common to both these movements is a phenomenon where people 'fall down' still aware but having lost control of their bodies. Charismatics call this 'being slain in the Spirit', attributing it to an active involvement of the Holy Spirit into the life of the individual. This phenomenon is often associated with that unconnected spontaneous shedding of tears. Individuals experiencing these phenomena almost always experienced some fundamental healing or change in their lives as a result.

Rebirthing

The Rebirthing movement (here I speak only from my own observed experience) employs a technique whereby the individual uses breathing techniques in order to relax into a light hypnotic state in which emotional trauma and blockages can be resolved. It is important in this technique to 'feel' and fully experience the feelings that emerge. Accompanying this process is often the spontaneous shedding of tears which seem unrelated to the emotions under observation. Healing and life-change result. (see Let it BE)

Mini-conclusion

So, we have a number of examples of the same phenomena. Spontaneous tears occurring in diverse explanations and all linked to inner healing. In all explanations the tears were not generated in the mental realm and often were unconnected to the events that the mind was involved in, they emerged elsewhere. Where is that elsewhere?

The God-circularity

Our ancestors then are somewhere along the linear scale from Not-Love to Love, Not-God to God. Unpolluted by previous explanations and social conditioning they progress naturally through the stages of grief. Emotions are felt and expressed unbound by social convention. However, the expectations of Love-circularity that came into being with the birth of the child is now unfulfilled. How can this absence ever be resolved?

Love-Circularity

The God Shaped Hole

This can only be achieved by the individual choosing to seek this relationship. There has to be a willingness, an acceptance, an openness of heart, for God to act. The individual has to turn away from themselves and toward God, seeking relationship and open to the possibility of the Eternal Spiritual Good's involvement in their life.

Discernment and Wisdom

The Watcher and The 'Fractionalised' Mind

The 'Golden Ball'

The Loving Heart

There are too many cultures that refer to the heart as the seat of love and compassion for us to dismiss it. This commonality must point towards a universal reality. So how are we to explain it?

Emotions ((Importance to be sensitive to physical sensations))

The Heart Of God

Emotional God-relationship

Emotions are a condition of humanity. They are also evident in other animals. Some people attribute (rightly or wrongly) emotions to vegetables. Emotions of this type are generated by mind events in the individual. Where blocked emotions have lodged themselves in the psyche of the individual there are physical bodily anchors on which these emotions hang. When blocked emotion causes a separation from the God-circularity it provides an anchor on which other mind events and subsequent emotions can hang. We end up with a huge pile of complex mixed emotion/mind constructions through which we relate to the world outside ourselves and the inner world of explanation. This constitutes our emotional 'map'* of responses. When an external event arises our response is coloured by all those past events and the emotional reactions that are linked to them. ((*like N-H matrix))

Compassion

Grief Resolution

With the mutual support of compassion and the continual renewal of the God circularity the grief process relating to the loss of the child can be experienced cleanly. It is isolated from other circularities, seen for what it is and unpolluting of other relationships. All the emotions and thoughts that arise can be experienced in an atmosphere of acceptance and unconditional love. Even anger can be expressed, accepted and passed through.* Eventually, through the stages of grief, acceptance and resolution is reached. Perhaps some understanding arises whereby the child comes to be seen as lodging in the God-circularity of the individual; identified with God. Perhaps an understanding arises whereby the God-circularity is seen as all encompassing and individuals become thought of as part of that universality. Or perhaps the healing nature of the God-relationship causes the crisis to abate and resolve into acceptance as love expectations from that circularity are relinquished*. Gradually**, the grief process takes our ancestor from Not-Love to Love. ((This indicates that the mechanism itself is the same for all emotional response. Level, or depth may be different?)) ((*Perhaps, the orientation of H-max. re-established after resolution, e.g., what can you do?!)) ((Like tree brunches broken by the storm and natural healing takes place and new growth continues….or at least the lessons are passes to others, hopefully.))

Application and Conclusion

The most important application of theory, in my opinion, is towards the betterment of peoples lives. ((H-max.))

(C) Suedragon_uk

==

<<tsao tsung>> at Searchingforox #377

I wonder how Zen or say Mahayana may relate to this topic?"

Zen teacher Dennis Genpo Merzel made the following
interesting observation in his book, 'The Eye Never Sleeps: Striking at the Heart of Zen':

"You cannot control the thoughts that pop into your mind. They come from no place; they
return to no place ... The same is true with our emotions. We think we have control over our feelings, but we do not. When we are sitting on our cushion, tears of sadness may flow. Why should we hate them and love joy? What is wrong with tears? To produce those tears is a natural function of the body and mind, a way of letting go, or cleansing or purifying [p. 8]."

I do not claim to have any real insight into the place or function of tears in our becoming fully human. If I have any understanding at all, it is superficial at best and conceptual in nature.

It may be beneficial for the List, though, if I share some of the related texts that I have had the good luck to stumble upon in my wanderings, which may have some bearing upon this topic.

So, then, beginning with this passage from Dharma teacher Merzel, it is interesting to note several things:

in other words, we are often at a loss for an explanation of what caused such feelings of sadness, or what it is that we are feeling sad about.

The idea of tears being a form of purification or cleansing is an interesting one and I would like to pursue this line of thought, as well as others,

but I am very short of time at the moment and so will have to continue tomorrow.

In the spirit of the Sangha!

==

<<tsao tsung>> at Searchingforox #382

"The idea of tears being a form of purification or
cleansing ... "

Apologies to the List for the delay in following through. Spare time has been sparse of late.

Following up on this line of thought, however, I would like to draw attention to Line 5 of the 30th Hexagram, in 'The Buddhist I Ching', the work of a 17th century Buddhist scholar, named Chih-hsu Ou-i, on the ancient Chinese classic.

Line 5 says: "Weeping and lamenting, there is good fortune (p. 128)." The Image says: "The good fortune of the fifth yin (line) is cleaving to rulers."

Without bothering to explain the structure of the I Ching, and the place of the Lines and Images, I shall just quote Chih-hsu Ou-i's comment on this Line. It is beneficial to note at first, though, that he says Hex. 30 teaches the cultivation of "correct concentration" and "subtle insight."

In regard to Line 5 specifically, Chih-hsu says that it clings "to the position of balance and correctness," and that:

"[Line 5] represents concentration in balance, which can bring forth genuine insight; therefore progress is certain. 'Weeping and lamenting' refers to abstention from complacency and presumption; this is always characterisitic of the study of the sages."

Several interesting observations arise from this passage: first, 'weeping and lamenting' is the common experience of sages (i.e., masters) in the pursuit of genuine insight. As an aside, I once trained with a Shaolin master who lived by the principles of the I Ching. On one occasion, he made the statement to me that his pathway to mastery was literally characterized by "a flood of tears". ((!!!!!!))

Secondly, the absence of tears is characteristic of presumption and complacency. In other words, tears, in this specific context of pursuing true insight, are absent in those who presume to have already attained it. This not to say that their tears ceased upon their attainment, but that they have never shed a tear in the work toward perfect enlightenment. This is approaching the work with complacency.

Third, 'weeping and lamenting' means "progress is certain." "Progress is certain" means complete perfect enlightenment has not yet been attained.
Where there is perfect enlightenment, there is no more 'weeping and lamenting' in the pursuit of it. ((How do you think tears corresponding to all appreciation?)) ((Also, what is perfect enlightenment, anyway?))

On the other hand, as tears are a vital part of life itself, the nonduality of Nirvana and Samsara would seem to indicate that tears are never totally absent in the state of complete perfect enlightenment.

This is powerfully manifest for me in the recent publication of the life of Ch'an master Tsung Tsai, who is still alive today, in the book entitled 'The Bones of the Master'. Under normal circumstances, such a book would have never been published while its subject is still alive; but there are extenuating circumstances in this case, which one discovers in the reading of it.

At any rate, it is apparent, from the book, that Tsung Tsai is a Ch'an monk of great realization, and yet there are several instances in the book where we are given a glimpse of his "enlightened" tears.

Once again, time restrictions hinder me from continuing at present. I will continue later where I have left off here, time permitting.

In the spirit of the Sangha!

==

Three Cents are More Valuable Than One Million Dollars (Not posted)

I lost a big chunk of money in investment. To make the story interesting, let's say it is one million dollars. Anyway, today, when my wife saw me re-using the tea bag - picking it up from the sink, she laughed and made a joke of it, saying, "You save three cents while losing a million dollars in investment. How many tea backs do you need to save to capture the loss?" I thought that is true. I am not good at having things in perspective especially when it comes to money. I have to say when that disaster happened, she was great in not showing the concern as much. She just kept the attitude saying that she will keep spending the money and I will have to keep working hard. So, her principle was that simple at least on surface and we did not have to go through creating the chaos in the family. I think she is very obstinate in many occasions, but such an attitude can help a lot. She is good at seeing things in perspective - in her own way.

Now, after my wound is more or less cured from that failure, and being goaded like this, I fought back saying to her: "Three cents are more important than one million dollars!" The intention was to do the best whatever the situation is and not to be controlled by the amount of money we have or not have in the bank. Easy to say… but I thought that is quite true. Three cents are more important than one million dollars. And I liked that phrase. Now, I feel that that is the right perspective that I should keep in my life. (Who knows that that was the same perspective to lose money to start with, though.) Of course, the question is the acting on such principle. But perhaps, if I keep such an attitude, I may find or may be already finding much more valuable things in life than conventional way of finding happiness. This may be seen as self-justification. But, so what? Someone said, subjectivity is truth. Kierkegaard? I guess, life is full of koans.

* From, P.60 "Introduction to Zen Buddhism" by Daisetz Suzuki: "..For we now realize that "A" is "not-A" after all, that logic is onesided, that illogically so-called is not in the last analysis necessary illogical: what is superficially irrational has after all its own logic, which is in correspondence with the true state of things. "Empty-handed I go, and behold the spade is in my hands!" By this we are made perfectly happy, for strangely this contradiction is what we have been seeking for all the time ever since the dawning of the intellect. The dawning of the intellect did not mean the assertion of the intellect but the transcending of itself. The meaning of the proposition "A is A" is realized only when "A is not-A". To be itself is not to be itself - this is the logic of Zen, and satisfies all our aspirations.

Reading this, I thought, hmm, I am practicing Zen. Yet, as soon as I thought like that, Zen flew away. What an interesting thing this is…it comes and goes.