Public Meeting 26th Jan 2001

Friday 26th January 2001 7:00pm - 9:30pm

Dan MacCallum:
Thank you for everyone coming tonight, We'd like to show a short video of which features two windfarms in Wales and interviews locals people who live next to those windfarms - one is Carno in Mid Wales and the other one is Taff Ely which you can see from the motorway.

Video which lasted approx. 8 mins was then shown

Dan MacCallum:
I'd like to start, I'm Dan MacCallum and I'm the project co-ordinator there's a number of people from the steering group here tonight and I'd like to briefly introduce them, if they could stand up in the audience, Ken Maddocks who's our Chairperson, Simon James who lives in Cwmgors, Rhys Maddock who lives in Ystradowen and Helen Davies (on stage) from Rhosamman. Not all the members could come tonight, there's an Amman Valley Enterprise presentation in Ammanford tonight, other people are on holiday.

What's the idea behind AAT we want to develop a small community owned windfarm, that's the idea, using a local resource - wind, and the profits, the benefits form that local resource coming back into our area, the steering group thinks in the same way as the coal industry, the coal industry was the dominant industry here for over 100 years, and my family worked there, but it is not just pretty much finished, people made a wage out of that industry while it was working it brought some prosperity to the area, but to be frank, the real money wasn't made here it was made elsewhere by shareholders , now we feel the same about wind which is the same , it's a local resource, we want the Community, this Community to benefit directly from the industry associated with the development of wind power, for the money from that local resource to come back into the local area, that's the idea, simple idea, that's what this years consultation has been about, we chose the structure of the project a small windfarm with a linked environmental centre, the profits from both of those to go into a charitable trust, which will operate within the upper Swansea and Amman valley areas which can support community projects and business in this area, the thinking behind it in having this Education Centre is that all schools have to study Renewable Energy within the national curriculum, not and in this consultation we've had a lot of interest form schools, it's a key part of Government policy for pupils because they have to learn about it, now there's two other education centers in Europe, there's one in Delabole in Cornwall, and the other is in Swaffam in Norfolk, , Those focus on renewable energy and education and they both employ quite a large amount of people and I can say this, that the phone numbers are on the sheet on your chair, if you don't believe me just phone them up and ask what I'm telling you about them. There's nothing like those two facilities here in South Wales so again there's an opportunity there to bring money and jobs to the local area,

In terms of the way the charitable trust will operate, what we're proposing is that each village elect a trustee to serve on that charitable trust so that the trust represents the local area and all trustees, have to live in the village they represent, the terms of the way the money is actually spent, from our figures it's between Ł192k and Ł380K per year so you call it a ball park figure of Ł200K per year, coming back into the area, what the steering group is looking at is that 50% of that being distributed within the villages themselves and the rest of it going to support project which cover the whole area of the Upper Amman and Swansea valley you know project which have a broader benefit than having one village base benefit.

Who's involved in the project most people here will know some or all of those people on the list, the bottom three are Eleri Chillcott from AVE and Pete West who is projects managers at the West Wales Eco Centre, and again allegations after last week, Stephenie said that all the Steering Group, they're all related they've all got jobs out of it and simply that's not true you can see here that these people are not related and I'm not related to all the people that stood up here tonight, in terms of the steering group being paid for the project, Helen's being paid, , but she was being paid, and then was invited on to the steering group.

Emily Hinshelwood, she's been mentioned already, Emily works for the university of Wales she has a contract with them as a researcher she's got a three year contract with the university of Wales she doesn't represent the project, she's been contracted to work at AAT her wages are paid by he University of Wales Swansea, for good or for bad, I represent the project, I am the project co-ordinator, I have been at all of the seven public meetings, we've organised and that's why I'm speaking tonight, It's actually Emily's mothers birthday today so she' s down in London with her, but to try and demand as TAG have really done that Emily speaks isn't appropriate because I represent the project

The steering group is made up of local people who are working in partnership with key organisations as I said the University of Wales, Amman Valley enterprise and West Wales Eco centre.

Now I was actually quite upset at the last public meeting or after it in Tairgwaith because we spoke first and we tried to represent the project, and after that Stephenie came on and myself and other people thought she was quite selective in what she used she was very personal in her accusations against staff and steering group members ...... (mumbles of disapproval from the audience)

Gwenda Thomas: Can I ask everyone - presenters on the stage and the audience that I don't want any stooping to personalities by anybody - you've said that not Dan so we'll carry on and raise above the personalities, this (the project) is too important an issue for the community.

Audience: (here here.. and applause)

Member of the Public: excuse me madam chair

Gwenda Thomas: well let's get through the presentations first.

Member of the Public: all I want to say is that do you agree that if someone's representing a Community Council that they may have a more influential influence on the people that are voting for or against this on the basis of, well if he thinks it's right..

Gwenda Thomas: I'll take that as a question later on, we'll continue with the presentation

Dan MacCallum: TAG gave out a lot of information at the presentation in Tairgwaith last week, I just want to pick up on a few things : number one, they said that all our figures are wrong now our figures have been checked by renewable energy engineers they've been checked by the DTI, the Government the main donor who's funding this consultation now they are right. Now figures that TAG used, they said that turbines are 25% efficient which misunderstanding the whole concept of what efficiency is.

Windfarms are fantastically efficient because they're there and they use wind which is free. What they're confusing it with is that 25% is the output which is a load factor now that figure is way out of date and all the calculations that TAG went on to do were just wrong so the figures that we've used between 28% and 30% load factor, that is conservative most wind farms in Wales - new windfarms - operate at about 30% or higher so you don't have to believe me you can phone up Swansea Energy Agency who are independent and ask them speak to Iestyn Morgan, the director.

The second point was that we put in the South Wales Guardian that we had somehow widened the goalposts that originally was 5 villages and now it's 14 I don't know quite where this is coming from but a lot of you will remember is that when the leaflets went out, they went out to every village in the area to all 13,500 people who basically surround that mountain so the goalposts haven't changed if anything they've shrunk because originally we were thinking of involving Garnant ..um Glanamman in the vote and they won't be voting 14 closest villages. The third point that was raised in the guardian was that we were a Private Company, look we've got the same legal structure as any of the Community Businesses at Amman Valley enterprise - we're the same legal structure as the Crčche you know the structure that's on the project is the same as Amman Valley Enterprise. It's not some sort of Private Company that is leap-frogging into the local area, we're from the local area,

In terms of the finances, again Stephenie made a number of allegations about that and Eira Jones questioned our accounts we have to report to the DTI every month they see every single receipt that comes to Awel Aman tawe, they go through with a fine tooth comb and I know Gwenda has actually written to the DTI questioning whether they are satisfied or whatever with our Accounts and they're replied to her saying that they're quite happy with the money is being spend and the project is doing what it said that we would do in the proposal which is to consult the community . And it is easy and you know to make allegations .. they're difficult to re-butt because they're quite personal what we've done is tonight on the side there is our expenditure to date now from the Ł67,000 that we've had we've put the expenditure on all the different categories on the table at the back there up until the month of December.

One of the main question that's been asked during the consultation was will we get cheap electricity? ...um No we wont, two reasons for that firstly we wouldn't be able to get the grant form Donors to make your electricity bill cheap, unfortunately in a way, but that's just the way it is. For grants like Objective One are interested in regeneration, regeneration projects for the whole area. And that doesn't mean benefiting individuals by what will actually be small amounts of money off their electricity bill, it is much more significant to put all that money in one pot to be spent on projects which can benefit the whole area the second reason is that it is technically unfeasible to supply individual houses from a windfarm. What will the profits be spent on? Well job creation, training courses, grants to youth clubs, old age, after-school club, people who want to start up energy efficiency programmes you know there's a variety of things that can apply, the important thing is that we can have a broad community benefit .

Would there be any jobs? There could be jobs. We've said already the Environmental Education Centre you know there's jobs at both of the other ones in Swaffam and in Cornwall and there also could be jobs coming in spending of the charitable trust you know already in this consultation we've created local jobs there's five people that are working part time on the project and there are other people that have been trained and have been involved in the local consultation so with Ł200k a year coming form a wind farm, that can be match-funded against other money like lottery etc. it could actually be bringing in a lot of money into this area you know you can easily create 20 jobs out of Ł200k per year.

I just feel that TAG are really missing the point what we're trying to do is plant an idea which can help people regenerate the upper Amman ands Swansea valley it's an idea, if you don't like it, vote against it in the referendum at the end of February, beginning of march.

But we think it's a fantastic idea and we're all committed to the local area and we want our children to grow up here and to work here. And you can look around and you can see the situation that we're in we've got Lucas closing ..

Member of the Public: it's already closed

Dan MacCallum: ... closed (laughs) you've got Barclays bank out of the area you know station road in Brynamman was once 50 shops or something on that road and now you can count them on one hand you know we are going, and I don't want to be too you know we are going down the tubes! It's a significant thing - you ask young people what prospect they see in this local area and they see very little - they move out - we are an ageing population the census figures will show it and if you want to check , we need to do something and this is the idea the steering group has come up with and it's up to you whether you back it or not and TAG aren't proposing another, that's all they're doing is criticising, criticising, criticising, and as we all know it's easy to do that. You can all nit-pick we've got an idea which with think is achievable and we think we can get the funding form it and we think it will bring some pride and some local jobs in the long term to this area, and at the end of the day the decision rests with you.

Helen Davies: I will keep my talk short seeing as everyone else is keeping their talks short tonight but I would like to pick up on 2 points, one is the Ł75,000 funding that's come into the community for this project alone and I'd like to talk about that. And the other one is on the energy saving devices that TAG have suggested that we should adopt instead of the windfarms...

Terry Howell: .. no we didn't say adopt ..sorry

Helen Davies: OK sorry

Stephenie Howell: everything (last week's presentation) is up on the back wall if you want to have a look

Helen Davies: OK Ł75,000 it's taxpayers money and it's come back into the community that's not a bad thing I can't see anything wrong with that there are 5 people including Dan who have had a wage out of it and it's come to Ł25,000, 5 people have had Ł25,000 in wages. Now I don't know about you but the minimum wage s according to people up London is Ł25,000 , now between 5 of us we haven't had that, so I argue the point that we're sponging the money off as there have been allegations... not allegations, but there are implications that we are doing this.

And I resent that and I do feel why shouldn't this tax money come back into this area, because I have received training form AAT for community development for research work and all of this is going to help me and I'm sorry if it sounds selfish, but I'm thinking of myself and maybe you should think of yourselves because we all need training we all need to keep up with the market that's out there we need work.

My husband has had 13 jobs in the last 15 years the last 5 jobs that he's had - they've all gone into liquidation - now you try living with that it's not easy and I've got some children and I've got to pretend that everything's OK and things are going well. I support this project because it's bringing in money to this area I think people form Tairgwaith and people of the Tairgwaith Action Group should consider this as well you know it's just don't look at this just as the windfarm look beyond it look at the money it can bring into the area and then the money that that could generate and it will got on and it gives people pride and it gives people hope .

On the point about the Energy Saving devices , my house is full of these bulbs that save energy, but who an I kidding I'm using more electricity now even with these bulbs than I was before five years ago when I started putting them in.

My children want a computer, my children want CD players, we're all doing it we're all adding to what we're consuming all the time , we need to use these bulbs - yes, I agree with you whole heartedly plus we need some other form of energy supply because this fossil fuel will run out eventually, let's not be selfish enough to think that we've got enough to keep us going we have to think beyond this and this is what Governments and everyone are doing global warming you might think we're using it as a guilt trip, it's not a guilt trip people are in denial, they've been told about global warming so much they're stressed about it and they don't want to hear anymore well they're pretending it's not there .

Educators are saying today look let's try to get the people to understand that they can actually do something so that they can start in the localities and change things and we are doing that we are starting locally - we're thinking globally and we're acting locally we're thinking of jobs you know I can't see these negative claims that Tairgwaith Action Group are putting on it will stop this project from generating money in our area.

And I agree with Stephenie on this point we are all related because my grandmother seems to be everybody's grandmother and everybody comes up to me ands asks aren't you my cousin, in a way we are all related in this community and we hall have to work together not quarrel over it, because lets not be personal and I agree totally with that thank you. (applause)

Gwenda Thomas: Right thank you for that can I introduce the CPRW, Mr Merfyn Williams and Mr Ivor Russell.

Merfyn Williams:

Thank you very much Mrs Thomas I won't presume on anything here this evening in terms of the local circumstance but I would like to say a few words on CPRW and why we say what we do say because we have as many of you will be aware have been opposing many of the Wind Turbine Developments through Wales.

Now the CPRW is a charity that was set up in 1928 so we have been around a long time not we were set up then because the people who set it up were very concerned about urban development about the growth of suburbia all over the place that was going on in the 1920's and they stood up and said no we don't want anymore of that . Now those people who set that up we're not against people living in houses but they were against that kind of development. Now over the years, CPRW has been up against other things as well for example we were very much in the opposition to forestation and we were vilified by that because there were jobs there and people said don't be against forestation because it brings work and we said we're not against trees we're not against forestry, but we're against that TYPE of forestry because it covers everything and it kills the soil. And what's happening now - people are seeing that and that is what we said in the 1940's .

And also we said by the way that we were against the method of headage payments on farming and once again we were several criticised, and we said in the 1950's we said if there is just only one method of headage payment there will be overgrazing there will be serious problems, where area we now - we are in those serious problems so we have been here before - we're not afraid of saying no to something's not because we're against those things in principle, but we're against the way it is being applied and this is the same with renewable energy - we're not against renewable energy, we're not against wind turbines per se - but we are against putting them in certain places certainly in so many parts of Wales.

And I think what we need to say is that Wales over the years as we know those of you living here know better than I do the resources of Wales have been used to support the rest of the UK and you can say that about coal obviously, and I can say because I come from an area that has a nuclear power station an that nuclear power station supplied lots of money to local schools - did that make the nuclear power station justified? No. To say that any scheme that's going to give money to schools is going to justify it is means it can justify anything because it gives money.

And now of course we have the Trawsfynydd power station and all the problems that lie with that, there are problems with everyone. Now I also live close to Llyncelen llwyerin and tomorrow there's going to be a demonstration in Llywerin about the drowning of that village and that valley to remembers the dam project in Turkey. We've been used we've been used all the time

(applause)

Now we've got to ask ourselves what do we
want to see for the future? When I cane over
Mynydd Ddu this afternoon it was a wonderful
sight and also I'm not from the area but I can
understand something about the people who
worked there and created the wealth and
created the scars which are now being
repaired especially in this area, When we talk
about the CPRW what we must remembers as
well that the areas under most pressure, are
not the top of the mountains, but the really
areas under pressure are the ones nearest
the villages and this is what you are facing
because up in GCG and Brynamman you are
at that borer which is the most important
because you are facing out form the village
on to the mountain side itself and what you
see around you is what is so important to you
as a community and what we feel is that the
benefit that we get form renewable energy from
the renewable energy of wind turbines is not
worth the - to our view - not worth the
sacrifice of having these things around you
which do not help in terms of feeling good about
the area - I our view, In understand that Dan
and others will argue against that and that's where we come in - what we've got to ask ourselves is for the future not, what is the future for the area around here , we've been hearing about the jobs and so forth well once again there are jobs going to be but there are alternatives as well for jobs around here and there are more than 5 people looking for work there are many more people looking for work, I'm sure of that...

Members of the Public: (here here, applause)

Merfyn Williams: So all these sort of question that we need to ask ourselves, not at the end of the days what I'm here to say is that there is a context for opposition and that context is based upon the environment and it based upon our appreciation of our environment and there is an argument for beauty, there is an argument for keeping things clear there is an argument for clean air - obviously and anti-pollution, obviously but there is a context for having a country that's becoming proud of the way that it looks and the way that it looks can also bring us work, remembers that because when they have finished the regeneration of the open cast site there are going to be projects, there are going to be scheme in addition to what other people might offer it's going to be there - bread and beauty can go together.

Member of the Public: Applause

Ivor Russell: I think an entirely different vision can be put to you about this area, it's future it's future wealth it's future it's future importance in the whole economy of Wales let alone the world, it's important to assess Wales form a global perspective and if you do that the total land area of Wales 0..13% of the worlds land area 1/7th of 1% is the area of Wales in relation to the whole area of the world it so happens the beauty that Merfyn has just been talking about is so pronounced in Wales that you wont find - take the in most other countries of the words - take the planes of Canada, the Sahara Argentina the Steppes of Russia, there are vast areas that have relatively little scenic beauty in comparison with what Wales has to offer.

We have the complete range of
geology which is why so many of
our hills are different form the next
one, our valleys are using our river
are what they are and this is why
the founder of CPRW realised this
and said we must put this in it's true
world perspective and safeguard it
form the unthinking development
which may ignore those factors.

It would be ironic wouldn't it if
through short term error, we
destroyed the very merits of Wales
that exist that exist in that 1/ 7th of
1% of the world

From the late 40 to the middle
50's great care was made in
designating the new national parks, Snowdonia, the Brecon Beacons Pembrokeshire followed by areas of admittedly outstanding natural beauty like Gower they did this to give a prestige to those areas for what they are - what has been the result looking last night on television at the rivers of Wales programme 12 million people walk though one particular foot path in Snowdonia, 12 million people what ere those 12 million people spending in Snowdonia what jobs are they creating I put is to you that they are creating an immense number of jobs and wealth.

Now when the Brecon Beacons national park was created. The area was a mine field of collieries that commences since 1947 they didn't include that at the time in the Area of Outstanding beauty but things change , after something like 65 years or more of continuous Open cast mining the area is going to be reinstated, I'm sure that with the expertise of engineers that the land will be very well reinstate. Once that is done Tairgwaith in particular I think will benefit, from that reinstatement, I'm told you're going to have a lake, you already have playing fields, and it will have the potential of being one of the most beautiful placed in Wales..

The future of the area lies in more in being a wild land outside a large industrial area that it does through from producing a few wind turbines or however mow many may ultimately results it s merely tinkering at the world problem, the best way of creating a large amount of energy in Wales is to put a barrage across the Severn. The sea has an inexhaustible about of energy. Which will create perpetual energy which will be unlike the intermittent nature of wind energy that comes form turbines.

I went up on to the site last Saturday on a beautiful clear day and stood on the site the turbines are planned to be and I was really suprised. I made the analogy of a saucer and an upturned cup, I could see hills surrounding me like the rim of the saucer in every direction, broken only by the view of port Talbot cooling towers. I could see a 20 mile view to the heights of the Brecon beacons in the distance. I am standing in one of the finest amphitheatres that nature could give you in Wales and its future is to capitalise on that in the best possible way and I wouldn't like to predict may one day walk over the site where the wind farm is planned and enjoy the quite superb view
Now when it comes to jobs and the future of the area, the Carmarthen Unitary plan, has a rather surprising thing in it , they are planning to like Cross Hands with Ammanford, a bigger built up urban area than Llanelli, the aim of course is to introduce industry and business form the m4 corridor, in it the plan the re introduction of the railways. They are going to inhumed Ammanford station and they're even thinking of reviving the rail links to the Amman valley.

Jobs there will be 100's of job coming to the area with tin the next 15 years and that process is beginning to happen, there is more to be made form tourism at this part of the valley than we realise.

What I feel is lacking in the presentation that has been made by the purpose of the development is that they have not considered all the other attribute that the planning system of this country, they have not been taken into account.

I put it to you that the future does not lie in Wind Turbinies in this situation.

(Applause)

Stephenie Howell: I understand that we've got 5 mins left so I'd like to pick up on a few things and try to put right a few of the allegations left against us in our last presentation. We never said that AAT were related to one another . the slide is on the back wall there . I just said that A.A.T steering group have been the majority of the people that had benefited form jobs, anybody who's outside the steering group has just been involved in leafleting . Myself , I've done very well, I've come from Tairgwaith I've lived here all my life, I do still live here even though I work away at the moment but I've done very well for myself without windfarm money and training, I've got two degrees, I'm very proud of that and I'm very proud that I was educated in Tairgwaith primary school without any help from the windfarm (Applause)

Basically the only other point I want to make is that yes, I understand that there may have been personal allegations in the past, maybe in the last public meeting, but I'd certainly like to find out what I said or the members of TAG said last week, I'd be interested to find out form Rhys Maddock who's going to bring this point up later I understand But I just want to mention that in an August progress report by AAT TAG where mentioned as aggressive and awkward that we interrupted a meeting in Rhiwfawr and that's what I just want to put straight that if allegations have been personal - they have been mad on BOTH sides.

Obviously tonight you opinions are valid, this is why I understand that now I want to finish because the ownership of this meeting is with the audience this is why we want your questions, whatever they may be and if there's a point of view you want to put across, this is your time thanks very much for listening to us up here tonight. (Applause)
Gwenda Thomas: Right then we'll move onto questions just to clarify two points, Dan referred to a letter I received form the DTI and indeed I did write to the DTI on the 16th October asking for clarification on the grant to AAT and also on the proposed voting, as Dan has said the response to my letter I have copies to both sides, so they both know what I was told by the DTI , Yes the DTI were satisfied with the way the grant has been spent in the way it was intended and that monthly accounts were being given to the DTI and that those monthly account were acceptable.

The voting procedure, were pleased to embrace the inclusion of 16 yr. olds, that was the view of the DTI the letter also said that ultimately the decision on this project is very much with the community. I'm sure you both agree that that was the context of the letter sent to me and now I share it with you and in the interest of openness and transparency and in response to points made to me is there anybody on either side whether it's TAG or AAT or of the wider community who is directly involved with a commercial Windfarm Company if so I think so I think that the Community should know about it and I leave that to the individual or individuals or not to answer (nil response from any of the members of those gathered) so in the interest of openness I need to put that right, because I don't intend to allow questions on personality. Whoever brings them up. So I think that I have made as much as I can the points that are within my knowledge.

Member of the Public: if a members of a local authority are representation of the people they represent. I feel that a members of the community council should not be allowed to be on the steering committee of AAT.

Stephenie Howell: Cllr, Sonia Reynolds is a members of the steering committee

Gwenda Thomas: the first question is for AAT as most of them are, but I'm sure that both sides would want to comment. It's form Sarah Newman who s a parent of a school-aged child and the question is have you consulted Tairgwaith School and have they been given the leaflets that other schools have?

Dan MacCallum: Yes

Gwenda Thomas: This is to the best qualified panel member, from Margaret Slough,
If we get power shortages in the future as is happening in California, would it be possible to arrange for the electricity from the turbines to be transferred to serve this area first?

Dan MacCallum: NO impossible

Terry Howell: NO

Gwenda Thomas: a straight no from both sides
Dan MacCallum: could I go on to say that as I stated in the presentation it is technically impossible to supply directly to local houses because the way national grid is set up, The Government in future policy possibly in the next 50 years is looking to having power station supplying directly to community, so it's something that could happen but it's not possible now.

Gwenda Thomas: If the fact that the DTI has been giving so much money an indication that they think planning permission has been already given?

There is no planning application that has been made to the best of my knowledge and this must be made very clear.

Dan MacCallum: you'll be voting at the end of February on whether the project goes ahead. If you vote yes, then we aim to submit a planning application , no application will be made unless there is a majority support for this project.

Gwenda Thomas: and if a planning application is submitted, than that will be subject to the strict democratic process. I have composites secular questions which I think are aiming at the same thing.

And they are addressed to AAT in the main. They are all to do with the process of voting.

After all the recent disapproval at the inclusion of 14 villages are you going to reduce the number of villages included in the vote and profit.

Do you think it's fair that any village or persons who is unable to see or hear the windfarm form their home are entitles to the same vote as those who will see and hear it on a daily basis?
(Applause)

What gives AAT the right to decide who is included in the vote?

If the Electoral reform society are independent, why are forms being sent back to AAT? And will AAT being involved in the wording of the referendum?

Dan MacCallum: On the question about what villages should be included right form the start of the project, we said that 13,500 in the upper Amman and Swansea valley are to be consulted about this project and the project leaflets went to every household in the area. It's not straightforward to say that any houses which can see the wind farm should be getting the vote. Because looking at Tairgwaith, Tairgwaith as a village looks away form the windfarm site

Member of the Public: shouts of disapproval
Dan MacCallum: Some sites will look towards it, but most look the opposite way, it's not straight forward. Brynamman and Upper Brynamman, which is the farthest away form the windfarm will have one of the best views of the windfarm looking down at it. So it's not straight forward to stay that this village can see it or not so they should be included or not included. Rhiwfawr would which is the closest village won't see it, but they are still affected, people there go up onto the Gwyrhyd than people from Tairgwaith, Cwmgors or GCG

Stephenie Howell: How do you know that?

Dan MacCallum: they use the mountain - so in that sense they're more affected. There is no easy answer to this but we've tried to base it on the circle of villages that surround the site

Member of the Public: The people of GCG and Brynamman can see a few mountains, but we in Tairgwaith can only see one mountain (murmurs of agreement form audience)

Member of the Public: we've heard about the saying - not in our back yard but we've been dumped on in our back years for over 100 years, we in Tairgwaith don't want it anymore . We'll have nice green field and tourism will bring the money back. (Murmurs of agreement from audience and applause)

Gwenda Thomas: lets try to get the answers on the referendum because it's very important

Dan MacCallum: On the referendum, the referendum is being managed by the ERS they are independent they are well respected they run referendums for unions and teachers unions, They are non profit making they are fair an impartial and they are very well respected. in terms of whether ... if you have nay questions about them, their number is on the sheet which is on your chair. By all mean phone them up.

Sarah Newman: can I come in here? I have attempted to phone them on three occasions and the gentleman that deals with them is a gentleman called Elliot, who was only available in the office on one day and when I phoned he wasn't available . (pause)

Dan MacCallum: with the forms that are coming back to the AAT office, some forms are coming back to the A.A.T office they have to be forwarded, and are only about the registration about the 16 year olds. And they are being returned to us.

TAG: why?
Dan MacCallum: because some are being completed in schools and are being handed to a person from AAT there and then. We need to register them because they are not on the electoral roll. Then...listen.. that will go the ERS. This is difference, it's different form a general election this is about the future about this community as I said in my presentation, young people don't see much of a future in the area and are leaving, it's important they're involved in these consultations which affect their local area and all this stuff about we're trying to bias the vote, there aren't many 16 year olds anyway, their not going to affect the vote one way or the other
(murmurs of disagreement from audience)

Gwenda Thomas: now I'm going to take point on this because it is quite important.

Member of the Public: you still haven't answered my question, what given you the right to decide who is included in the vote.

Dan MacCallum: we are a community group the steering group are all from the local area, right form the start the consultation has been with 13,500 people in the area in the same villages that are going to have to vote. They were the 14 closest villages which go round the mountain. This our idea of how to regenerate the area. If you dislike the fact that were are looking at the Amman valley and Upper Swansea valley as a whole which is split between three local authorities, then by all means vote no.

Member of the Public: I would like to ask Daniel if they are so interested in the 16 yr. olds, and the young people, where are they tonight? And where were they last Friday, because I didn't see them.

Dan MacCallum: Eira they've got a lot better things to do than come to a public meeting like this

Stephenie Howell: and you're saying all the people here haven't got better things to do?

Helen Davies: If you're concerned that they're not here and they won't vote and it won't affect you so I don't see that you're problem is to be honest with you, but I have a 16 year old daughter and she would like to be given the option and like many other children, they are not silly and they're not stupid they've got a good opinion.

Member of the Public: They have not lived in the school of life my dear

Helen Davies: They're a lot wiser than you think.
Member of the Public: I would like to make a point on what Dan said about which houses will face the windfarm. I will be the first to admit that my house does not face the turbines. But when you drive up the road to Tairgwaith, they will be the first things that you will see, the will be on the horizon and on the mountain directly in front of the village. When you go into Tairgwaith they will be directly I front of you and there is not disguising that fact.

Member of the Public: have you had confirmation that the ERS will do this for you and how much will it cost?

Dan MacCallum: yes Ł7,000

Member of the Public: and do you have this money?

Dan MacCallum: yes

TAG: Where from?

Gerald James: how many pylons do you see driving form Pontardawe?

Eric Swinford: The developers of Llyn Brianne were forced to put the cables underground so as not to spoil the view.

Gwenda Thomas: OK the wording on the referendum, who's going to be involved.

Dan MacCallum: The wording on the referendum is the responsibility of the steering group

(murmurs of disagreement from audience)

Dan MacCallum: if you're not happy with the wording on the paper when it comes out then vote no

Stephenie Howell: Tairgwaith Action Group has never been invited to become a member of the Steering group, so why is that? You have co-opted a lot of people on since the start of the project, so why haven't you - you stated in the last meeting , and I understand that the slide wasn't up tonight about AAT wanting TAG and themselves to work together for some reason, but you encouraged TAG and AAT to work together - we are still awaiting an invite to join the steering committee.
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Gwenda Thomas: Right OK, now the wording is going to be decided by the steering committee.

Dan MacCallum: ...in conjunction with the ERS
Gwenda Thomas: are you going to co-opt any members who have shown an opposition to the project?

Dan MacCallum: no

(murmurs of disagreement from audience)

Gwenda Thomas: The issue of the wording on the referendum is quite important - have you any idea what it's going to be ?

Dan MacCallum: NO off the top of my head. Basically it's a yes or a no

Stephenie Howell: well, it has to be!! What is the question?

Dan MacCallum: The question is being discussed by the ERS and they're advising us on it.

Stephenie Howell: one small point on the wording of the referendum, the BWEA put out this statistics that 70% of people are in support of wind farm technology, Now the question they have asked is 'do you support windfarm technology' and yes TAG support the development of windfarm technology, But the ERS came in and asked a village 'do you want a windfarm in your village?' and the answers came out quite the opposite - 68% said No to that, and it was because there was different wording used and you have to be very careful on what wording is used as it WILL sway the vote.

(Murmurs of agreement from audience and applause)

Gwenda Thomas: I'm sure you (AAT) will be taking the view of the meeting into consideration on a very important issue. - Rhys..

Rhys Maddock: Certainly you may represent some of Tairgwaith, but you don't represent all of it.

Member of the Public: no more than that.

Gwenda Thomas: where is the money form the referendum coming from? - As I understand it the grant from the DTI was for the consultation and was not to be used on the referendum. - so this money needs to be raised

Dan MacCallum: not completely

Gwenda Thomas: where is the money going to come from?
Dan MacCallum: the referendum isn't something that we budgeted for in the original consultation so we then had to go out and make applications for that money and we've done that, we've got some of the money, Some of the money can come from within the existing DTI budget.

Member of the Public: but you've just said that the DTI money was not to be used for the referendum

Dan MacCallum: yes, but I think Gwenda has misunderstood, what the DTI claim, the DTI have said that we can put some money from the overall budget towards to referendum vote, we've also raised Ł1,500 from Hyder we've put an application in with Jigso they haven't said yes yet. there are three donors.

Gwenda Thomas: I'm sure that there is concern surrounding the referendum, perhaps we will stay with this for 5 mins and then we'll move on.

Merfyn Williams (director CPRW): Madam chair, I'd like to make a point that when there was a vote in Montgomeryshire when they were proposed initially there was support, when they went up there was support, but now nobody wants them. With the referendum, Its not the end of the story

Member of the Public: I was in the first meeting and I don't think that Lower Cwmtwrch and Upper Cwmtwrch should be able to vote in referendum pertaining to Tairgwaith.

Applause)

Eric Swinford: I don't think Dan has answered one single question yet.

Gwenda Thomas: the question of 16yr olds as it was stated in the meeting last week you've had the answer and it's a matter for AAT to decide who gets involved in the vote and how wide to offer this vote and that you are not subject to any principles of the law in the voting and that that gives you the right to extend it to lower than 18 which is according to electoral law.

So that is a matter of AAT, and if you are displeased, then you have the right to show it.

The question of the villages and the extend to which this has been extended is again a matter for AAT

Dan MacCallum: it hasn't been extended and there are people.... it just hasn't been

Gwenda Thomas: you are saying that it will include 14 villages

Dan MacCallum: yes
Eric Swinford: what I'd like to propose is that AAT makes a draft of the wording on the referendum and a copy of that be sent out to all opposition parties for their approval

Eira Jones: How much money have you got at the moment for the vote

Dan MacCallum: Ł4,000

Stephenie Howell: the DTI have said in a letter to TAG that they have only funded the consultation process. And not the referendum The budget for the consultation, did not stretch as far as the referendum.

Pete West: to me it seems a bit rich because is that the only reason why the money is now needed is that the people Tairgwaith didn't accept the 15% vote and you asked for a referendum and the steering committee went along with it.

Member of the Public: In the original leaflets only 5 villages were mentioned. Now you've changed it.

Gwenda Thomas: lets conclude this that there are serious issues concerning the referendum.

Dan MacCallum: the thing is causing the confusion - there Wendy just said it it's on the map, there are 6 villages which have arrows to them on the map and I think that's where you've picked up 5 villages. Now those were never the villages that were going to have to vote. That map was to give the people the idea the closeness of the villages.

Gwenda Thomas: I think we need to send a message that there are serious reservations on the referendum and these need to be taken on board.

The issue of the referendum is causing concern. The next question is to TAG., What ideas do you have to attract other investors to this area as you are turning AAT away.

Stephenie Howell: can I say that this is an old chestnut that's come up in a lot of meetings again I can only refer you to the slides at the back there. Our Aims aren't to set up an alternative scheme, if you read our aims, we are here to fill the significant gap in the information to the contrary to what the rosy glow picture that AAT have been giving out . We have had to fund this by ourselves, we have had no funding form people like Jigso. We have done this because we feel it should not be the case where one side is put forward when there is such an important decision to be made by the members of this community. That is why were set up. Again and again can I reiterate that we are not here to put forward alternative full stop. (Applause.)
Gwenda Thomas: How many turbines are proposed what guarantee is that this if these are allowed it is not opening the door for many more and the second one is why wind turbines, they are noisy, and they are ugly and that is a fact.

Member of the Public: that tape that he showed is wrong, the turbines are noisy.

Member of the Public: I went on a windfarm trip and I couldn't hear a thing, we had to ask the children to keep quiet so that we could hear the turbines

Gwenda Thomas: right thank you for that.

Margaret Slough - In the contract for the turbines, they can be quiet when they are new, but they have to be maintained properly

Dan MacCallum: the noise goes over a certain level they can close a windfarm down

Gwenda Thomas: what about the question about them possibility about more

Dan MacCallum: we're proposing 4 - 5 turbines that will cost 3 million pound, as a Community Group there in Norway we could raise more than that. If at some future time the community is happy with the windfarm and wants to put up more they can request the trustees to put up more. but that would have to be based on community support.

On the question of wind speed testing there been wind speed testing done on that site three years ago. - we can't guarantee that at some point a windfarm won't go up there.

Terry Howell: a couple of answers to Mr Rhys Maddock when he says that we're not representing the majority of Tairgwaith, we have got our petition, which will prove who signed, and it's down at the front of the stage if anyone wants to check and it was 65% of the people of Tairgwaith who we were able to see who signed it

For Mr Ken Maddock - when he said that no one from the steering group was on the council, Cllr Sonia Reynolds is on the Steering Group. And the test that Mr MaCallum said was carries out for three month s in 1997, actually it was for 6 months in 1995. And the letter said that it proved inconclusive so it means we have been lied to continually with facts and figures, how many more lies have we been given by AAT?

I will read firstly from the document that was given to me by AAT. It says National Windpower carried out three months of wind speed testing in 1997, the results of which suggested that the site would be viable for a windfarm,. This reply we had form National Windpower - 6 month - two year earlier. And it proved inconclusive Pete West: - what they mean is raw data which was uncorrelated. - 6 months of data is of no use to anyone.

Stephenie Howell: but how can you base your projections of uncompleted wind speed tests yet? How can you project your figures.

Pete West: that's why the mast is up there now, to collect further data.

Stephenie Howell: where does the 30% come from, where does the BWEA get their figures from, I have looked on their website and I can find any output data for turbine output at all.

Member of the Public: why are we having the referendum now, when wind speed testing isn't complete yet?

Applause

Pete West: the answer to that it that this is a stage by stage process. That's all you have to do is say whether you want to go ahead with the process.

Stephenie Howell: but how can you ask people to do that on little or incomplete information?

Gwenda Thomas: why was the mountain picked for the windfam?

Member of the Public: because it was an ugly mountain

Dan MacCallum: we all live around that mountain, we all want to benefit form this, we are not interested in a Windfarm down the Gower or whatever, we want this in our own locality. When we found out the National Windpower had already done wind speed testing up there looking at the way give policy it - is there a risk of a commercial developer putting something up there.

Member of the Public: if you refuse to have these up there now, you might have a nuclear power station up there.

(Murmurs of disagreement from audience)

Member of the Public: if when they are built they are found not to be financially enviable, the what is the risk that someone will buy them out - with the possibility to put more there.

Member of the Public: I think the question that must be asked on the referendum is if the windfarm is in your back yard - would you want a windfarm,. Would you have it on your property and see how many answer this question.
Dan MacCallum: the people feel that Tairgwaith is being dumped on, look at the map Ron, Cwmllynfell is nearer.

Member of the Public: whether we like it or not there will be a windfarm up there.

Stephenie Howell: how do you know this to be a fact?

Member of the Public: how many people of that village in Carno have been employed by that wind farm

Pete West: there are 50 turbines, there is one person.

Terry Howell: the Western Mail last week stated that in the Caemaes windfarm , where they have envisage to spend 35m pound - compare that to 3 million they will employ 60 people for 14 months, there after it will be 7 people, this is a 3 million compared to 35 million, where they get their figures form I don't know
Dan MacCallum: we are also envisaging jobs coming from the education centre and from the Ł200K per year we will get from the windfarm you could easily create 20 jobs out of that. Wales has got a fantastic resource in terms of it's wind. SO strategically Wales has got a fantastic opportunity. We want to encourage local communities to take out franchises to take out the production of these turbines (murmurs of disagreement from audience)

Helen Davies: what I'm saying is all these turbines that are going up in Wales why don't we get to make these.

Gerald James: Why hasn't Arwyn Woolcock given us his opinion

Arwyn Woolcock: As a member of the planning committee of Neath and Port Talbot county borough Council, the legal advice that I have been given is to listen to both sides of the argument when it comes to the planning stage, then I will make my decision (Applause)

Member of the Public: yes we've got the wind, but we also had the water, and what did they do with that - they drowned our villages. (Murmurs of agreement from audience)

Member of the Public: who is going to own this windfarm?

Dan MacCallum: The 14 closest villages will own the windfarm the structure that we're looking at is a co-operative. Everyone in the villages will be given the opportunity to buy a Ł1 share
Stephenie Howell: it's not a share - AAT is a private limited company with no share capital it will be a membership fee.

Dan MacCallum: it's not a dividend share it will not provide any profit - that's how it will work. Everyone in the 14 villages will have to right to elect the trustee form their village. Everyone will benefit form the project. You have to understand that this is the first community lead windfarm

Stephenie Howell: you just said community owned

Dan MacCallum: what we're looking at is community ownership across 14 villages. Not everything is set in stone.

Stephenie Howell: the Objective One match funding will only stretch to Ł1.5m, where are we going to get the other half from, now Pete West: explained to me last week that Coalfields Regeneration may put up some money, but they certainly aren't going to put up anything near to Ł1.5m and Helen Davies mentioned in the Focus group meeting that AAT will be looking for smaller donors, not you will have to find one hell of a lot of smaller donors to make up that Ł1,5 million. Now that Ł1.5m may come from private investors, who may want a return on that money invested in it. How can we guarantee that we are going to get Ł1.5m and nobody wants anything back from it.

Eric Swinford: where are the hubs of the turbines being built?

Pete West: Denmark

Dan MacCallum: if we could get those turbines to be made locally, then we will do it.

Gwenda Thomas: 30 seconds Dan to Sum up

Dan MacCallum: we think this is a good idea, some people here obviously don't you vote either way, to be frank, think back to the mining industry - did you have this amount of consultation I live in Tairgwaith which is very anti it. We think this project will offer an opportunity for our children to grow up here. That's why we are committed it . I live in Tairgwaith, that's all we've heard about at the moment is rumours about land fill sites in that hole form the open cast. I don't know any truth about it, but how much consultation do you think there will be if there is a landfill site

Member of the Public: (murmurs of disagreement from audience) there will be there will have to be etc... Gwenda Thomas: 30 second for Stephenie and TAG

Stephenie Howell: I would like to ask AAT to act upon a few points that have come out from this consultation. We would like to be involved in the consultation by the ERS about the wording on the referendum We should be involved as an opposition, as an alternative view, to be on the steering group to provide a balanced view to be promoted to all the communities involved and plus on the point of whether another company are involved and why AAT are doing this, an interesting things came to my attention today when I looked at a report written by AAT which was detailed on their website, the same document I referred to earlier and it's on the back wall as well. It was stated by AAT the "by greater attention to working with the community and benefiting the communities financially, further progress could be made by the WIND INDUSTRY in submitting more successful planning applications" They are here consulting you because it looks much much better for the wind industry, to consult you. It's the thin end of the wedge and this is where they're coming in , they are here to see what we think so that National Windpower or Powergen could come in at a later stage through the back door.

Applause

Gwenda Thomas: I'm sure that it's been information if nothing else, and I think we'd like to show our appreciation on both sides.

Applause)

Terry Howell: please before you go will you please show your appreciation to a lady who continually has the community interests at heart ands this is why she has given up her time again tonight and she has dealt with a difficult situation what with everyone wanting to speak, so will you please show your appreciation for Mrs Gwenda Thomas.

(applause)

END OF MEETING TRANSCRIPT