Saturnine Faerie: Yr. choice, what side of the arguement do you want to take? INGSOC of 1984: Reductionism. Saturnine Faerie: kie, brb Saturnine Faerie: Ok. Why do you think reductionism is the key to understanding? INGSOC of 1984: The only reason we are so far advanced in our technology and medicine, psychology and understanding is because we understand the parts of the things that makes up what we do and use. We can build a car because we mastered the simple machines. Saturnine Faerie: But unless we advance to the bigger picture, our view remains limited. Saturnine Faerie: How is reductionism going to explain religion? INGSOC of 1984: And how does holism further chemistry? INGSOC of 1984: Besides, try to explain religion with any science and you'll be out of your league. Saturnine Faerie: Looking at advancements in chemistry over the last few centuries, a pattern is bound to occur that'll lead to even higher formulas. INGSOC of 1984: But those higher formulas can only be achieved by using the basic knowledge of small units. Saturnine Faerie: (just so you know, you got the side that I usually take so right now I'm panning water out of the parteh boat) Saturnine Faerie: Small units make up parts of a whole, but not a greater whole. INGSOC of 1984: (( ::smiles:: I don't think there CAN be sides to this one. Both holism and reductionism are needed and we both know it.)) Saturnine Faerie: How is knowing how a quark operates going to help me explain why african americans have some of the lowest reading levels in texas? INGSOC of 1984: We don't need a 'greater' whole. We are doing just fine adding 2 and 2 and coming up with 4. We don't need to adjust for very large sums of 2 and come out with 5. That would throw all of our sciences off. Saturnine Faerie: But unless we start adjusting to higher logic, our species is never going to advance. INGSOC of 1984: You're crossing fields, now. The reason for blacks having low reading levels isn't quarks, but if we shift to social sciences, then there can be an explanation at the individual level. Saturnine Faerie: Evolution should be the higher goal, not sitting around trying to understand the tiniest mysteries of today. How is knowing that spin of an electron going to improve society? Saturnine Faerie: But reductionism is reducing to the lowest parts, what is the tiniest part of a social matrix? INGSOC of 1984: The individual. Saturnine Faerie: And what is the individual made of? Saturnine Faerie: Organs. Organs are made of cells, which are made of atoms, which are made of subparticles, which are made of quarks. INGSOC of 1984: Synapses in the brain, leading us back to consciousness. INGSOC of 1984: Not organs. That is NOT the essence of a person. Saturnine Faerie: What exactly defines an individual? INGSOC of 1984: A person is a person because they can say, 'I Am.' Saturnine Faerie: Synapses in the brain...every emotion in the brain is caused by chemicals. Saturnine Faerie: And who exactly is I? INGSOC of 1984: One unit of society,. Saturnine Faerie: If my brain is in a tub in a lab somewhere connected to my body by radiowaves, telling it what to do, who is who? Saturnine Faerie: And what about a person living in a cave somewhere? How can that person be an interger in society? INGSOC of 1984: We don't understand consciousness yet, but as far as we know, the brain is still you... the body is just a vehicle. INGSOC of 1984: They don't have to be part of a society to be an individual, but individuals are the basis of society. Saturnine Faerie: Saturnine Faerie: And who exactly is I? INGSOC of 1984: One unit of society,. Saturnine Faerie: Don't double back on yr.self ::Swat!:: Saturnine Faerie: So, if we were to take yr. brain out of yr. body, and put it into a metal exterior, are you still Warren? INGSOC of 1984: If the brain still functions, yes. Saturnine Faerie: And how does the brain function? INGSOC of 1984: BAH! Without loss of consciousness I am Warren. As long as, somewhere, that consciousness exists, I am Warren. Saturnine Faerie: And what makes the consciousness? INGSOC of 1984: We don't know. Saturnine Faerie: Once again, what makes yr. mind function? INGSOC of 1984: As a physical object? blood, water, chemicals, electricity and all that other good stuff, but I'm not talking about a physical thing, here. INGSOC of 1984: Consciousness isn't physical, although it can be taken away, for now, via stealing away the physical container. Saturnine Faerie: And as for consciousness, how is understanding to smallest part going to help us solve anything? Saturnine Faerie: Oh, so it isnt physical, is it greater than understanding? INGSOC of 1984: The atom bomb only worked because we understand atoms. INGSOC of 1984: Greater than understanding? No, it just hasn't been understood yet. INGSOC of 1984: Magnets were 'greater than understanding' for a long time. Saturnine Faerie: Would you say it is greater than the simple sum of it's parts? INGSOC of 1984: They are no more than the sum of their parts. INGSOC of 1984: Consciousness has no parts, therefore it is outside of this discussion. INGSOC of 1984: Do I have to get the Topicality form out and read it to you? ::grin:: Saturnine Faerie: These are theories used to define everything, therefore EVERYTHING is freeground in this discussion Saturnine Faerie: ::smack:: bad joke Saturnine Faerie: :-) INGSOC of 1984: That's like trying to define religion with these theories. Saturnine Faerie: go for it INGSOC of 1984: They are outside of the realm. Saturnine Faerie: no they arent Saturnine Faerie: at least in holism they arent, you reductionist pansy INGSOC of 1984: You asked which I thought could explain the universe better: understanding the big stuff, or every little piece. The Universe is a physical thing to be governed and understand using laws. INGSOC of 1984: Science. Saturnine Faerie: So you are not part of the universe? INGSOC of 1984: Well, if we are arguing a religion against a science. this one's a draw. I can keep talking, you can keep feinting. Saturnine Faerie: Ideas are human, to be human is to be part of the universe INGSOC of 1984: I, as a physical body, am a part. But as a consciousness, no. Saturnine Faerie: then what is yr. consciousness part of Saturnine Faerie: (lol, yr. not the first person to drag consciousness into this arguement, im pretty sure you wont be the last either) INGSOC of 1984: Nothing. It is a thing with which I receive these electrical signals and make them into ideas and thoughts which I then use to do physical things with. Saturnine Faerie: And once again, ideas are part of the human nature. Saturnine Faerie: No humans, no ideas. Saturnine Faerie: Religion, believe it or not, is an idea, not a set ground. Saturnine Faerie: And consciousness, is an idea, noone can prove its there. INGSOC of 1984: And no one can prove it's not. Saturnine Faerie: But how is using reductionism going to prove either INGSOC of 1984: (Shit, we've just reversed roles relating to the religion thing) Saturnine Faerie: ideas seem to exist to be proven Saturnine Faerie: (I havent, you'll see where Im going if we get there) Saturnine Faerie: brb INGSOC of 1984: (lol) Saturnine Faerie: TINKLE!NESS Saturnine Faerie: back. So would you say consciousness would have to be concieved as a whole? Saturnine Faerie: That there are no small parts to it? That this is something bigger than ourselves? INGSOC of 1984: You defined Holism as a thing being grater than the sum of it's parts. By that definition, as consciousness has NO parts, it cannot be greater or less than the some of them. 0+0 is always 0, wholistic, or not. Saturnine Faerie: So the consciousness is nothing and does not exist. Saturnine Faerie: To be able to reduce it, you have to reduce it to its SMALLEST PARTS. INGSOC of 1984: No, it is above math and this realm. Saturnine Faerie: 0/0 is invalid INGSOC of 1984: Exactly. Saturnine Faerie: so, you've been trying to argue something with me that doesnt even exist. very godot of you INGSOC of 1984: ::smiles:: Saturnine Faerie: you said that the consciousness is what makes us human, well, if it doesnt exist. if consciousness = invalid, and human = consciousness, do humans non-exist? INGSOC of 1984: YOU made the connection between consciousness and humanity. Saturnine Faerie: then what was the purpose of consciousness? Saturnine Faerie: why would someone try to explain it? INGSOC of 1984: Why not? Saturnine Faerie: INGSOC of 1984: BAH! Without loss of consciousness I am Warren. As long as, somewhere, that consciousness exists, I am Warren. Saturnine Faerie: DO YOU NOT EXIST? INGSOC of 1984: Yes, because consciousness can not be calculated with numbers. It does not have any part of this reality. It is a different realm. Saturnine Faerie: holism and reductionism said nothing of numbers. we're not trying to understand the world through formulas. thats another arguement all together. we're trying to understand if everything can be understood by the smallest parts or as a whole Saturnine Faerie: (and that argument Im going to drag you into later. woo, thats one of my faves) INGSOC of 1984: ::closes his eyes, sighing:: OK, gimme a second. Saturnine Faerie: aww? INGSOC of 1984: ::shakes his head:: Nothing, just pissed off at myself. Saturnine Faerie: why? INGSOC of 1984: Just give me a second to reread what you said. Saturnine Faerie: trust me, i double back on myself all the time INGSOC of 1984: And I don't catch it. Saturnine Faerie: Its the only way (name censored to protect the not so innocent)'s insipid oaf of an intellect has ever been able to beat me. INGSOC of 1984: "we're trying to understand if everything can be understood by the smallest parts or as a whole " INGSOC of 1984: What 'everything'? Saturnine Faerie: lol. good question Saturnine Faerie: 42 Saturnine Faerie: hmm kie. everything in creation, physical/metaphysical/nonphysical/secular/vernacular/relgious/otherwordly etc. Saturnine Faerie: that should cover EVERYTHING INGSOC of 1984: Neither can ever explain it all because 'everything' is infinite. Saturnine Faerie: explain Saturnine Faerie: And the reason I chose to pick this fight with you, is because you actually put up a fight, you keep me on my toes, people like the big dumb oaf just ask stupid questions and wait for me to double back on myself, they cant think up anything for themselves INGSOC of 1984: Well, if we're trying to explain everything... the existence of ever grain of sand and dust mote, every hydrogen atom and ionized helium, then they're infinite and they'll never ALL be explained. Saturnine Faerie: from our state of mind Saturnine Faerie: they have to be viewed from a greater set of mind, a bigger picture frame than it is in INGSOC of 1984: That will help you understand where they are and how they interact with each others, but NOT how to use them and what they're made of, which requires a degree of reductionism. Saturnine Faerie: think of it like..you get a family picture, but you put it into a small frame so you have to fold it. when you do that, you dont see everything, but when put in a big enough frame, you do Saturnine Faerie: but not everything has small enough parts to be reduced Saturnine Faerie: and there is a set of randomness that cant be seen in smaller parts, you have to look at the whole pattern Saturnine Faerie: like social matrixe Saturnine Faerie: /\s INGSOC of 1984: OK, but there are things that must be reduced to be understood. Saturnine Faerie: but not to the tiniest parts Saturnine Faerie: lets go back to my initial question that started all of this: Saturnine Faerie: Saturnine Faerie: How is knowing how a quark operates going to help me explain why african americans have some of the lowest reading levels in texas? INGSOC of 1984: It isn't. But even if you knew the whole that all the atoms add up to, it still wouldn't tell you anything about why the blacks are doing badly. Saturnine Faerie: but you start zooming out. at first glance you see that african americans are doing bad on reading tests. you zoom out to see a higher rate of domestic violence. zoom out and you see the ones that are prone to scoring badly are also in bad economic situations. eventually everything starts stacking up and patterns emerge INGSOC of 1984: And then ask 'why'. Why does that happen? Zoom IN and you get the answers. Saturnine Faerie: (and it could be any race in the arguement. thats just based on facts by the texas education board) Saturnine Faerie: but you cant get the answer until you see the pattern INGSOC of 1984: And the patterns no good without a reason. Saturnine Faerie: but the reason doesnt exist outside the pattern INGSOC of 1984: And the pattern doesn't matter unless you want to do something with it, and to do that, you have to have a reason. Saturnine Faerie: and the reason is the sum of all the wholes Saturnine Faerie: is taking every level and coming up with a solution greater than them INGSOC of 1984: How's that? INGSOC of 1984: No... I don't think so. Saturnine Faerie: on that, i was looking on an economic, social, and racial level. those all had to add up INGSOC of 1984: In your example, the reason is that individual black families have lower income, which is a device of racism and the fact that their parents had lower income, so they didn't get as good an education and so on and so fourth. Saturnine Faerie: were we required to delve into chemical reactions of the brain to solve that problem? Saturnine Faerie: or did we have to look at the higher information. did we have to zoom out of it being merely that the blacks had lower testing scores Saturnine Faerie: (if you get tired, tell me and we can continue this later) Saturnine Faerie: im having a hard time keeping up with you. the break would be as much for me as it would be for you