Notes and observations:
This thread is really interesting. Of real interest are Reply #21, #22, #23,and #24. Read them and notice the time stamps. Then read the revised Reply #22 on the next linked page after Chris Inman edited it in the next version of the page. Note the new post by Greg Moore, Reply #27 on the next linked page and how it was also edited at a later time on the third revision of this page after Bill Vogeney tells him not to dredge up old events. I guess this is why moderators have the ability to edit both their own posts and other people's posts; so that they can control what is said on TCC. I guess history can be rewritten. These are the same guys that will tell you the "facts" about the history of Scotty Cameron putters, at least the facts as they want people to believe!

Author Topic: Need some FOV feedback on other putter makers  (Read 149 times)
elvogo
Administrator
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 3161



View Profile WWW Personal Message (Offline)
« on: September 27, 2007, 12:39:11 AM »
Reply with quoteQuote

Seems to me that if Cameron collectors get bashed, it's because of this perceived hatred and contempt we have of other putter makers.

However, from my standpoint:
1. I don't really hate any particular putter maker (well, maybe one, but for reasons that would be very embarrassing for them and I won't share the reasons why)
2. If I had an issue in the past, the issue was more with people associated with various makers-and their attempts to bash Cameron to make their "guy" look better. Never has worked. My theory on sales is you can't win my bashing your competition. Luckily, with one of the guys, I think I was able to talk to and reason with them. Haven't heard that bashing since.
3. Most of these guys seem to do nice work. As nice as Cameron's stuff, no. Of course, if someone wants something custom to you in particular, it's easier and cheaper with the other makers.
4. Scotty's on top in the collector's world because he's been #1 on tour for 13 years.  If you want to look at it from a collection value standpoint, I seriously doubt that you'll have a collection of other stuff go up like Scotty's work.
5. I consider myself a friend of Byron Morgan's. Have known him for a decade, and have always liked his stuff. I have him make me a putter or two a year, just to help him out, but I would never build a collection of 80 putters of his.
6. I like some of Bobby Grace's old stuff, in particular some of his handmades. However, they are always the first to go when I want to buy the next Cammie.

That being said, I think it's important to have this discussion.
First of all, do you guys see bashing of other putter makers here?
Two, what can we do to avoid this in the future? Scotty is #1, he really has nothing to gain from bashing on this board.
Is there a reasonable place to do comparisons between Scotty's stuff and other putters. Or, another way of putting it, is it relevant to compare?
Are their other issues we need to discuss?

Looking for candid, rational, and constructive comments.

Vog
Report to moderator   Logged

In the bag:
Titleist 905R 11.5Pro Launch Blue shaft
Titleist 904 3 wood YS6
Titleist 585H 21 degree
Titleist 755's 4-PW
80 Camerons and counting
11 handmades
13 garage putters
Tour putters made for DD, EE, BL, FC, PS, NP, NF, DT, SH, RG
golfereddie
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 4445


009 welded slant neck ..A008761


View Profile Personal Message (Offline)
« Reply #1 on: September 27, 2007, 01:28:54 AM »
Reply with quoteQuote

Vog:  I personally don't believe in bashing anyone.

I view all the putter makers that I know and like as artists and craftsmen.  I appreciate what they can do with their minds and hands(albeit aided nowadays by cnc machines, etc).

It hurts me to hear anyone "bash" Scotty(b/c I've met him and his family and gotten to know him a bit in Japan).  I would like to respond vehemently to criticisms of him; but, I manage to "hold my tongue" altho it really irks me to have to do it.

I happen to have a few TP Mills putters and David made me a few "personal" putters last year that putt remarkably well and they look fabulous and I'll be forever grateful that he was kind enough to make me those putters.  However, they can't replace "my Scotty's" b/c the feel and confidence is better for me with Cameron putters.

I also have 2 Bettinardi "custom" putters; but, one is so beautiful that I won't take it to a golf course and the other is just a little light for me. I acquired those early last year.

Someone recently emailed me about purchasing a B. Morgan 007 and I looked at the site and decided against it.

I hate it that not everyone can get along and at least respect all the putter makers that i've mentioned.

There should be room even on this forum where we can discuss other putter makers. In fact, in my collection section, I've posted my other putters mentioned above.

I view all these putter makers as different "painters" back in the Renaissance days or the Impressionistic period.  Some people loved Monet...some people loved Van Gogh...some people loved Matisse......One thing we know now is these were all GREAT painters!!

We are living in an age of great putter makers and we should all embrace that reality without rancor.

JAT....sorry for the rambling...i read some threads on another forum that hurt and disturbed me.

This "stuff" is a HOBBY....it's NOT life and death....it's not worth the wasted energy that hatred expends.
Report to moderator   Logged

TW
Garage A8894
Garage JAT A9109
Tour Bullseye A5055
NP2 Tour LN A7630
NP2 CT A8057 w/OBT
NP2 Tour CS A2727 SG
NP2 Tour CS A5802 CM
Del Mar Tour A7956 NF
009 A6985
009 A7990
009 CS A8427
009
gss303
Full Member
***
Online Online

Posts: 241


View Profile Personal Message (Online)
« Reply #2 on: September 27, 2007, 06:20:40 AM »
Reply with quoteQuote

Well said VOG
Well said EDDIE

If I have time today I will chime in with my opinion.
cleve
Report to moderator   Logged
nickpoz
Global Moderator
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2762



View Profile WWW Email Personal Message (Offline)
« Reply #3 on: September 27, 2007, 06:48:47 AM »
Reply with quoteQuote

"This "stuff" is a HOBBY....it's NOT life and death....it's not worth the wasted energy that hatred expends."


Pretty much sums it up right there!
Report to moderator   Logged
gdm43
Global Moderator
Hero Member
*****
Online Online

Posts: 2452


PGA Member since 1983

flyfisherwannabe gdm43pgapro
View Profile WWW Email Personal Message (Online)
« Reply #4 on: September 27, 2007, 08:54:16 AM »
Reply with quoteQuote

Don't see any real bashing of other makers here but I do get the feeling and have read on a few occassions, that "this is a Cameron site" if you want to talk about so and so's work go over on their site!

That is the perception elsewhere, too.  That you can't even discuss any other putters here.  That and the fact that they all want to be able to talk about what putter they've sent off to BOS or Geo (or the other guy in the NW, who's name will not be mentioned) to have aftermarket stuff done to it.


Greg
Report to moderator   Logged

My FeedBack Here <---------

Slainte mhath! - Good health

Club Cameron member '05, '06 & '07
ablunck
Contributing Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 602


"Don't play the co-star in your own film"


View Profile Personal Message (Offline)
« Reply #5 on: September 27, 2007, 09:27:56 AM »
Reply with quoteQuote

Vog, I agree with what Greg says. I don't think people are comfortable mentioning other manufacturers in TCC. I don't know about bashing per se, but there just isn't much talk about the other guys. disparaging remarks will happen in this forum because its easy to hide behind a keyboard, and easier still when one is in a foul mood, or had a bad day. JAT

How would or could you police free thought, whether it be right or wrong to the whole or the few? Some of these guys are very passionate, and at the same time some are here because its a social setting where they share a common interest. I can only assume there are many members that don't even own a SC putter, yet they are here because its a great site. How would you be able to discern harmless banter from bashing?

Comparisons are hard to do in the case of SC V. other manufacturers. What would be the standard by which the comps were measured. Anser V. Newports? Would it be all aesthetics comps? That might make sense but should be limited to a few reviewers that you feel are qualified to do it. Full reviews with pics might help other collectors really see the differences between one putter and the next. Along those lines I would like to see an opinion free piece with good pics on what to look for in refinished or counterfeit putters? I think that would be very informative. Again, by someone you feel is qualified to do the piece.

I like anything that makes the ball go in the hole. I still like the old PING putters just about as much as any putter out there. I play with a friend that has an old copper LN Anser Beach that is so beautiful it makes me sick. Very worn in, but CLASSIC. I am a big believer that the original Ping Answer is still the putter that all other cavity back putters compare to. And, as a local boy, I have nothing but love for PING.

As you all saw in my posts on the gamer thread, I am not opposed to using other manufacturers putters. The Callaway Blue thats in the bag right now is referred to by my regular group as "the blue bomber" and for good reason. Its why I am looking for a Catalina to game. BTW, picked up a LE to try out. Wish me luck. You can all disagree, but the Rossie mallet is one of the best gamer putters ever made.

I agree Vog on the subject of SC vs. all others in regards to the collecting market. However, its hard to believe that the PINGS fell through the floor, and I'm sure a bunch of collectors didn't see that coming. SC markets his brand very well; couple that with the tour stats and his putters, he should stay on top for years to come.

AB

Thanks for reading my babble.
« Last Edit: September 27, 2007, 09:29:29 AM by ablunck » Report to moderator   Logged

elvogo
Administrator
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 3161



View Profile WWW Personal Message (Offline)
« Reply #6 on: September 27, 2007, 01:10:51 PM »
Reply with quoteQuote

Keep it coming guys!

Vog
Report to moderator   Logged

In the bag:
Titleist 905R 11.5Pro Launch Blue shaft
Titleist 904 3 wood YS6
Titleist 585H 21 degree
Titleist 755's 4-PW
80 Camerons and counting
11 handmades
13 garage putters
Tour putters made for DD, EE, BL, FC, PS, NP, NF, DT, SH, RG
007Bluto
Global Moderator
Hero Member
*****
Online Online

Posts: 2260


Bluto


View Profile Personal Message (Online)
« Reply #7 on: September 27, 2007, 01:21:04 PM »
Reply with quoteQuote

              I don’t see much if any, bashing of other manufactures on this site. TCC hasn’t deleted posts or banned anyone for talking about other manufactured.  This is a Cameron site so if people feel uncomfortable with talking about other makers, oh well……I my self would feel uncomfortable walking into a Chevy dealership wanting to talk about the new Ford line of cars….. Very little if any discussion about different putter makers goes with the territory; once again the site is called The Cameron Collector.
            It’s easy for people to slag this site and make references to Cameron fans as Kool-Aid drinkers blindly following Scotty. But you know what’s interesting …..Every manufacture out there would love to have World #1 using there putter and the market share that Scotty holds.
             As for me personally no other putter maker besides Scotty has reached out to me or even cares that I exist…………I’ve spent a fair amount on my collection and have received some very special putters from Scotty. The other manufactures seem to NOT be interested in my $$$.....In the past, without any strings attached, I’ve donated money to a memorial fund for one manufacture that passed away. After making my donation, surprisingly I was told that a special putter was going to be made for me, (this was not going to be a freebie, I would be paying for this putter.)   The putter was a no show. I inquired with another manufacture rep about purchasing a nice stamped up lefty putter and was blown off. Personally I feel that I’m so much more than just a lefty collector, when someone does for me, they get it back ten fold…….. So since I don’t seem to rate to them, they don’t rate to me. I don’t go out and bash the other manufactures; I treat them as if they are irrelevant …To put it in a nut shell…Fuckum…..Weather  there worth $10,000.00 or .10 cents,  I’ll just suffer on with my Cameron’s……Chris  
« Last Edit: September 27, 2007, 01:46:36 PM by 007Bluto » Report to moderator   Logged

Lots of Backassward Putters
smitty
Hero Member
*****
Online Online

Posts: 2230


gusmaue@hotmail.com
View Profile WWW Email Personal Message (Online)
« Reply #8 on: September 27, 2007, 01:34:35 PM »
Reply with quoteQuote

Thanks for your insight Chris.
Being a lefty creates special challenges.

Recently, a lefty friend of mine asked if I might be able to help him find a 33" 350g newport 2.
Imagine my dismay when I had to tell him as far as OTR's are concerned…they don't exist.
Report to moderator   Logged
Mr. Doug
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 5660


CptTripps
View Profile WWW Email Personal Message (Offline)
« Reply #9 on: September 27, 2007, 02:39:30 PM »
Reply with quoteQuote

Interesting thoughts guys...

I'm reading some very different views from when I posed this question last year.

I'd always imagined moving non-Cameron discussions to a completely different website to keep this place "Pure to Cameron Discussion." (Scotty's words...not mine.)

...maybe someone should think of that idea.
Report to moderator   Logged

--
Doug Hardman
doug(at)puttertalk(dot)com


“I'll play it first and tell you what it is later.”
Miles Davis
elvogo
Administrator
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 3161



View Profile WWW Personal Message (Offline)
« Reply #10 on: September 27, 2007, 03:00:33 PM »
Reply with quoteQuote

The issue, as I see it, is not necessarily whether we should talk about other makers (we should focus on Cameron) but how we deal with this perception.

I'm thinking we should address in the rules or on the main page before you go to the forums.

JAT

Vog
Report to moderator   Logged

In the bag:
Titleist 905R 11.5Pro Launch Blue shaft
Titleist 904 3 wood YS6
Titleist 585H 21 degree
Titleist 755's 4-PW
80 Camerons and counting
11 handmades
13 garage putters
Tour putters made for DD, EE, BL, FC, PS, NP, NF, DT, SH, RG
Mr. Doug
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 5660


CptTripps
View Profile WWW Email Personal Message (Offline)
« Reply #11 on: September 27, 2007, 03:05:48 PM »
Reply with quoteQuote

like this?

"This is where people from all over the world come to discuss Scotty Cameron Putters and Scotty Cameron collecting. We started The Cameron Collector with the simple goal to help anyone wishing to get into the hobby of collecting Scotty Cameron putters. Our only purpose is to help educate collectors, and make friends."
Report to moderator   Logged

--
Doug Hardman
doug(at)puttertalk(dot)com


“I'll play it first and tell you what it is later.”
Miles Davis
E MAN
Global Moderator
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 4310



View Profile Email Personal Message (Offline)
« Reply #12 on: September 27, 2007, 08:42:27 PM »
Reply with quoteQuote

My thoughts are this:

    TCC is a Cameron enthusiasts web site. While i don't think it's a big secret that alot of us have other makers putters in our collections,I don't think it's appropriate to have discussions here on the topic of other makers out of respect for Scotty. I do think that if people have brought up other makers putter here, they have been shut down fairly quick by other members, so alot of people shy away from  any discussion anyway. I'd say let the discussion of other makers go to Putter Talk, they could use the traffic anyway.

          E
« Last Edit: September 27, 2007, 09:02:00 PM by E MAN » Report to moderator   Logged
007Bluto
Global Moderator
Hero Member
*****
Online Online

Posts: 2260


Bluto


View Profile Personal Message (Online)
« Reply #13 on: September 27, 2007, 09:10:28 PM »
Reply with quoteQuote

This is where people from all over the world come to discuss Scotty Cameron Putters and Scotty Cameron collecting. We started The Cameron Collector with the simple goal to help anyone wishing to get into the hobby of collecting Scotty Cameron putters. Our only purpose is to help educate collectors, and make friends." 
 
 
I’m curious if the above statement was the intent or general idea of this website, why should the Cameron enthusiast be bashed for only wanting to talk Cameron’s?  If you were to design a car to only go 30mph in would seem stupid to bitch, complain or make fun the fact that the car only goes 30mph,,,its following its design scope….
Report to moderator   Logged

Lots of Backassward Putters
ablunck
Contributing Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 602


"Don't play the co-star in your own film"


View Profile Personal Message (Offline)
« Reply #14 on: September 27, 2007, 09:34:50 PM »
Reply with quoteQuote

There is nothing wrong with talking only Camerons. I think the question was in reference to those who bash other manufacturers and if it makes sense to keep that kind of banter to a minimum.  If all one wants to do is talk Camerons only, this is certainly the right place. JAT
Report to moderator   Logged

007Bluto
Global Moderator
Hero Member
*****
Online Online

Posts: 2260


Bluto


View Profile Personal Message (Online)
« Reply #15 on: September 27, 2007, 09:41:58 PM »
Reply with quoteQuote

Vogs first sentence;
                          Seems to me that if Cameron collectors get bashed, it's because of this perceived hatred and contempt we have of other putter makers.


The perception part get's me, were all supposedly blindly following Scotty and bashing all others makers.........It's the excuse used to justify other people's bashing of Scotty and Cameron Collectors..........Chris
Report to moderator   Logged

Lots of Backassward Putters
ablunck
Contributing Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 602


"Don't play the co-star in your own film"


View Profile Personal Message (Offline)
« Reply #16 on: September 27, 2007, 09:49:13 PM »
Reply with quoteQuote

Great point. I am a little confused as to where these "other people" are? Who are they and why would we give a crap what they think, do, or say? Is there something I'm missing?

AB
Report to moderator   Logged

E MAN
Global Moderator
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 4310



View Profile Email Personal Message (Offline)
« Reply #17 on: September 27, 2007, 09:50:28 PM »
Reply with quoteQuote

I don't think there has been much bashing of any maker here with possibly exception to Slighter for obvious reasons, and even that has been pretty minimal. The moderators have ALWAYS kept a pretty tight leash on any sort of bashing of anyone or any maker.

         E
Report to moderator   Logged
albertovelez
Global Moderator
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2431


albertovvelez
View Profile Email Personal Message (Offline)

« Reply #19 on: Today at 12:47:38 AM »
Reply with quoteQuote

a few thoughts from my personal standpoint:

- bashing of our peers or scotty or other putter makers is classless and inappropriate and only leads to negativtiy and animosity ...

- TCC is a cameron site and the emphasis on discussions and information should focus on the cameron brand

- scotty is the best at what he does and we can just look at the facts (i.e. the darryl survey) for some of this info - facts are facts and the stats speak for themselves

- everyone is entitled to their own opinions about anything and everything ... as long as comments are constructive, productive and courteous

alberto
Report to moderator   Logged

elvogo
Administrator
Hero Member
*****
Online Online

Posts: 3165



View Profile WWW Personal Message (Online)

« Reply #20 on: Today at 08:55:01 AM »
Reply with quoteQuote

Ok, I think I have some ideas for how to handle this. Thanks a lot

Vog
Report to moderator   Logged

In the bag:
Titleist 905R 11.5Pro Launch Blue shaft
Titleist 904 3 wood YS6
Titleist 585H 21 degree
Titleist 755's 4-PW
80 Camerons and counting
11 handmades
13 garage putters
Tour putters made for DD, EE, BL, FC, PS, NP, NF, DT, SH, RG
pgagreg
Contributing Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 550



View Profile Email Personal Message (Offline)

« Reply #21 on: Today at 08:30:37 PM »
Reply with quoteQuote

Bill I have been guilty of responding to posts about other putter makers and telling the poster straight out that this is a Cameron Collector site and their questions are out of place. I did it because I thought that was what Scotty wanted. He told Doug so much, that he wants the TCC to be Cameron only.
Bill for you to ask the question "Is there a reasonable place to do comparisons between Scotty's stuff and other putters. Or, another way of putting it, is it relevant to compare?" You better ask Scotty about that one. Maybe he has changed his mind and doesn't care if we talk about other putter makers. But when Doug tried to solve the issue of people posting about other putter makers by creating another website you see what happened to him. Scotty wouldn't take Doug’s telephone calls any longer. Doug's Moderators were told by Scotty to choose, stay at TCC and lose your Cameron privileges or resign.
Sounds to me like Scotty had/has some strong feelings about the subject.
This is a small group; why not invite Scotty to post in here occasionally. Start by asking him what he would like to see in the TCC.
There is no doubt about Scotty's artistry and attention for detail, definitely the best.
Alberto I hate pointing to the Darrell Survey to justify anything. Taylor made is no. 1 in PGA Tour driver usage. But they pay the most in tee up money so what do you expect.
Scotty has the most tour wins and the best player in the world using his putter, that should say enough.
Greg Hodges

PS: Bill are you pulling a Nick Po on us, "1. I don't really hate any particular putter maker (well, maybe one, but for reasons that would be very embarrassing for them and I won't share the reasons why)"
Don't tease us, tell us the true story.
If it is the truth, it is the truth. Now if some legal settlement prohibits somebody from talking about the situation, so be it.

Report to moderator   Logged
007Bluto
Global Moderator
Hero Member
*****
Online Online

Posts: 2274


Bluto


View Profile Personal Message (Online)

« Reply #22 on: Today at 09:22:18 PM »
Reply with quoteQuote

Very interesting story Greg……Unless you were in the room with someone on speaker phone when Scotty or someone else called them how can you make these statements……Trust me when I say I can assure you that I never got a call from Scotty telling me to make a choice or forcing me to resign………It was just a coincidence that several mods decided to resign at the same time……Anyone that says otherwise is full of crap and is just trying to bash Scotty and cause trouble…….Chris.   
Report to moderator   Logged

Lots of Backassward Putters
pgagreg
Contributing Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 550



View Profile Email Personal Message (Offline)

« Reply #23 on: Today at 09:33:07 PM »
Reply with quoteQuote

Hum,  January 27th, 2007 while at Kissimmee Bay golf club ( on the 3rd hole I think) at the golf outing I organized, I stood by and listened as you told Fred Coffey the story of what happened. Must be be I heard you wrong.
Sorry if I got my facts wrong.
greg
Report to moderator   Logged
007Bluto
Global Moderator
Hero Member
*****
Online Online

Posts: 2274


Bluto


View Profile Personal Message (Online)

« Reply #24 on: Today at 10:15:46 PM »
Reply with quoteQuote

it's water under the bridge and not worth discussing, no one here is interested in opening old wounds....
Report to moderator   Logged

Lots of Backassward Putters

Scotty Cameron, scottycameron.com, Club Cameron, Titleist, Cameron Collector, cameroncollector.com, Bill Vogeney, William D Vogeney, Ent Federal Credit Union, Ent, ent.com, Vogeney, Vog, Vogey Golf, vogeygolf.com, Art Of Putters, theartofputters.com, Art of Putting, Table Rock, Table Rock Golf, tablerock.com, Chris Inman, Hayhoe Construction, hayhoeconstruction.com, Bridges at Rancho Santa Fe, thebridgesrsf.com, Nicholas W. Pozaric, Nick Pozaric, Valhalla Golf Club, Ryder Cup, Keith Reese, Greg Moore