MY FIRST RESPONSE

;We are founded upon Christianity>> Not at all. With thanks to Icelus:;Those who make the assertion that the United States was founded as a Christian nation confuse the founding as a political unit with the settlement of North America. It is true that some came to this continent for religious purposes, and indeed several theocratic colonies were established. But the fact is the very first English settlement on this continent at Jamestown in 1607, a full 13 years before the founding of the Plymouth colony by the Puritans. The settlers at Jamestown were not here for religious purposes, but for economic purposes. At any rate those that came to North America for religious purposes, believed that they were establishing some form of Christian utopia and many supported religious liberty for themselves solely. Much like today with the Religious Right who are attempting to create some kind of Christian utopia, whereas the only religious "freedom" will be theirs and thei! rs alone. At any rate, the early colonies were theocracies where only those who worshipped according to state orthodoxy were welcome. Those that didn't especially outsiders such as the Quakers, were tarred and feathered, imprisoned and even hung. Following the Revolutionary War in America, political leaders began to construct the new US government. Although a minority clung to European notions of church/state union, a general consensus emerged that the new nation should steer clear of officially established religion. Over time, states with government-favored religions gradually began moving toward separation as well. Massachusetts, the last state to maintain an official religion, disestablished its state church in 1833. During the Constitutional Convention, a minority faction favored some recognition of Christianity in the Constitution. In a report to Maryland lawmakers, delegate Luther Martin asserted that "in a Christian country, it would be at least decent to hold out some distinction between the professors of Christianity and downright infidelity or paganism." Sound familiar? It should, because a replay of that time is now occurring. Although the radical religious right rhetoric has gotten nastier. "Downright infidelity" and "paganism" has been replaced The document, which was approved by the Senate in accordance with Constitutional law, and then signed by John Adams, states flatly, "The Government of the United States is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion." Couldn't be any clearer than that! >>Please do not copy and paste others work with me. It's a waste of my time, since I do my own home work. It is generally accepted that over 250 men were instrumental in the foundation of our country, thus qualifying for the designation of "founding father" consider the following list:

56 Signers of the Declaration of Independence 14 Presidents from 1774 to 1789 [President of the United States in Continental Congress] First 4-6 Presidents of the United States beginning with George Washington 36+ prominent military leaders of the Revolutionary War 55 Men in the Constitutional Convention 38 Signers of the Constitution 13 State Governors responsible for leading the ratification of the Constitution 90 Members of the First Congress?creators of the Bill of Rights

Most of them never questioned their faith, can you show me I am wrong and they did question their faith?

I have about 245 of 250 on my side who were no doubt Christians.

1.Articles of Confederation 1777 proposed by the Continental Congress prior to the writing of the Constitution, which was later signed and ratified 'Whereas the delegates of the US in the Year of our Lord'. Hmm, the Continental Congress confessing Christian beliefs? Who would have though. Well, I would because I can read evidence and deduce facts, and it is clear as day.

Abraham Baldwin was a signer of the Consitution and was Christian.

Richard Bassett was a signer of the Consitution and was Christian who participated in the Constituion of Delaware which stated 'Every person who shall be shosed a member of eithier house, or appointed to any office or place of trust...shal..make and subscribe the following declaration, to wit:"I (-----) do profess faith in God the Father, in Jesus Christ, blessed for evermore, and I do acknoowledge the Holy scriptures of the Old and New Testament to be given by divine inspiration.

Gunning Bedford- was a signer of the Consitution and was Christian and would have complied with the requirements for office as stipulated by the above stated constitution of Delaware I listed above.

John Blair was a signer of the Consitution and was Christian

David Brearly was a signer of the Constitution and was Christian.

Jacob Broom was a signer of the Consitution and was Christian and was a Delegate from Delaware and would have subscribed to the requirements for office as law by delaware as I listed a few paragraphs previously.

Nearly all 55 writers and signers of the Constitution were members of Christian Denominations. Perhaps you could explain to me how they were Deists instead? Good luck. The only open Deist, Dr. Franklin called for public prayer and contributed to all denominations.

Congress of the United States 1854 'at the time of the adoption of the Constitution and the amendments, the universal sentiment was that Christianity should be encouraged, not any one sect [denomination]. The object was not to substitute Judaism or Mohammedanism, or infidelity, but to prevent rivalry among the Christian sects to the exclusion of others.

How about our FIRST Constitution called the 'Fundamental Orders Constitution of Connecticut' written in 1639 and later served as the model for the US Constitution which is so famous. The committee in charge of framing orders were to make the laws 'As near the law of God as they can be'. The Connecticut towns of Hartford, Wethersfield, and Windsor adopted the Constitution. The preamble stated 'Forasmuch as it has pleased the Almighty God and well knowing when a people are gathered together the word of god requires, there should be an orderly and decent government established according to God, to maintain and preserve the liberty and purity of the Gospel of our Lord Jesus which we now profess. Which is now practiced amongst us, also in our civil affaires to be guided and governed according to such laws, rules, orders and decrees. Article I- That the Scriptures hold forth a perfect rule for the direction and government of all men in all duties which they ar eot perform to God and men, as well in families and commonwealths as in matters of the church. Article II- There is in matters which concern the gathering and ordering of a church, so likewise in all public offices which concern ivil order, they would all be governed by those rules which the scripture held forth to them. Aricle IV That all the free planters held themselves bound to establish such civil order as might best conduce the securing of the purity and peace of the ordinance to themselves, and their posterity according to God.

Johnathon Dayton was a signer of the Constitution and was a Christian.

How about this court case in 1831 in New York as told by witness Alexis Tocqueville, 'While I was in America, a witness, declared that he did not believe in the existence of God or the immortality of the soul. The judge refused to admit his evidence, on the ground that the witness had destroyed beforehand all confidence o the court in what he was about to say. The presiding judge remarked, that he had not before been aware that theree was a man living who did not believe in God, and that he knew of no case in a Christian Country, where a witness had been permitted to testify without such belief.' Wouldn?t this statement be further proof of our Country being a Christian nation? I know so!

John Dickinson was a signer of the Constitution and was Christian and writer of the first draft of the Articles of Confederation. He met with other delegates from Pennsylvania less than two months before the Declaration of Independence was signed to suggest requirements for the members of the Convention to subscribe to before being seated. One was 'I do profess faith in God, in Jesus, and I do acknowledge the Holy Scriptures of the Old and New testaments to be given by Diving inspiration.

Benjamin Franklin's parents raised him Christian for starters and he himself said he was educated a Presbyterian. He attended church regularly. He was a deist in his late teens, but never was totally removed from God. In his second autobiography, he stated 'I never doubted the existence of the Deity, that he made the world, and governed it by his Providence, that our souls are immortal, and crime will be punished'. He believed Christianity during this time did provide a great social value because it instilled people to live good, moral, virtuos lives. He believed deism wasn't very useful, if it were true also at this point. He was soon influenced by 2 men, one protestant and one Catholic. This changed his belief system from a partial deist, to most Christian beliefs. He wrote letters confirming his belief in the doctrine of Justification by Faith, and the Grace of God at the Great Convention, Franklin called for prayer, declaring that 'God governs in the affairs of men.' According to Deism, God doesn't intervene. He expressed some doubts to Jesus' divinity. A Deists would have no doubts; he would totally reject Jesus divinity. He referred to the Scriptures as 'Sacred writings' and quoted from the bible throughout his life. He expressed the belief that the convention had been guided by God in producing the Constitution, something a deist would never believe or say.

Alexander Hamilton was a signer of the Constitution and a Christian. He once said 'Let an association be formed to be denominated "The Christian Constitutional Society," it's object to be first: The support of the Christian religion. Second: The support of the United States.

William Samuel Johnson-was a signer of the Constitution and was a Christian.

I heard Bill O'reilly just this week talking about liberals who deny our country was founded upon Christianity. He said if you don't believe that fact, you are either ignorant, or a Christian Hater. We all know he is a extremely knowledgeable person. Sean Hannity, Neal Boortz, Michael Savage, Rusty Humphries, Laura Ingraham, and Anne Coulter would probably tell you the same thing.

James Kent was a Chief Justice of Supreme Court of NY. In the case people v ruggles in 1811 he rendered the opinion of the court, 'the defendant wickedly and blasphemously utter and with a loud voice publish, in the presence of hearing ofdivers good and Christian people, and concerning the Christian religion, and Jesus Christ, the talks scandalous, malicious, wicked and blasphemous words -Jesus Christ was a bastard, and his mother must be a whore. the defendant was tried and found guilty, and was sentenced by the court to be imprisoned for three months, and pay a fine of 500 dollars. ridicule of Christ or the Scriptures are offenses punishable at common law, whether uttered by words or writings because it tends to corrupt the morals of the people. The people of this state profess the general doctrines of Christianity. We are a Christian people and the morality of the country is deeply engrafted upon Christianity, and not upon hte doctrines of worship of those imposters [o the religions] the Constitutional declaration never meant to withdraw religion in general, and with it the best sanctions of moral and social obligation from all consideration and notice of the law. Christianity is part and parcel of the law of the land.' Why would it be against the law to bash Christianity if it weren't part of our country and government? Can't say the same thing for other Religions like Islam and the wicked beliefs of Atheism. Unless you could show me the court case please from around that time...lol..good luck!

Rufus King was a signer of the Constitution and a Christian.

Cyrus King- signer of the Constitution of the US and in response to Thomas Jefferson?s announcing his plans to donate over 600 books to the Library of Congress moved, 'Select there from all books of an atheistical, irreligious, and immoral tendency, and send the same back to Mr. Jefferson without any expense to him.' Christian books in the Library of Congress? If the government wasn't Christian, why admit the books? That would be against their intentions!

John Langdon was a signer of the Constitution and a Christian.

William Livingston was a signer of the Constitution and was a Christian.

John Locke had a profound influence onf our Flouding Fathers and he was the third most frequently quoted author of the founding fathers. His classification of the basic natural rights of man i the right to 'life, liberty, and property' not only influenced Jefferson in the writing of the Declaration of Independence, but is also reflected in the Fifth and Fourteenth amendments. He was also a Christian.

Supreme Court of Maryland 1799- case M'Creery's Lessee Vs Allender, where and emigrant had become a naturalized citizen. The court decided in MCreery's favor, base on a certificate which reads 'Thomas M'Creery in order to become ....naturalized took the oath. -repeat and subscribe a declaration of his belief in the Christian Religion, and take the oath required by the ACT of Assembly of this State, entitled -An Act for Naturalization.' You had to take the oath to be a Citizen of our Country. Why take the oath by law if Christianity was not to be a part of our law?

What about the First Charter of Massachusetts in 1629- which stated, 'For directing disposing of all other Matters and Things, where by our said People maie wynn and incite the Natives of the Country to the Knowledge and Obedience of the true God and Savior of Mankind, and the Christian Faith.'

Supreme Court of MASS in 1838 in the case Commonwealth vs Abner Kneeland, who claimed the right to 'Freedom of press' as a defense of r publishing libelous and defamatory remarks about Christianity and God. the stature, 'That if any person blaspheme the name of God, by denying, cursing, his creation, government, or final judging of the world mayb be described as consisting in speaking evil of the Deity. It is purposely using words concerning God....to impair and destroy and reverence, respect, and confidence due him....that this statured itself is repugnant to the Constitution....[This law] was passed very soon after the Constitution, and no doubt, many members of convention which framed the Constitution, werer members of legislature which passed this law. New Hampshire has a similar declaration...denial of the being and existence of God is prohibited by stature, and declared blasphemy. In Vermont similar declaration of rights 1797 ....the being and existence of God...deemed....and an offender against the good morals of society. The state of Maine...adopted the same constitution provision. The first amendment embraces all who believe in the existence of God, as Christians of every denomination. This provision does not extend to Atheists, because they do not believe in God or religion; and therefore...their sentiments and professions, whatever they may be, cannot be called religious sentiments and professions. Do not skip over this. Address this please.

Mayflower compact in 1620, americas first great government docutment, was signed by the Pilgrims before they disembarked their ship, the MAYFLOWER> 'In ye name of God, Amen. We, the loyall subjects of our dread soveraigne Lord, Kings James, having undertaken, for ye glorie of God, and advancemente of ye Christian faith, a voyage to plant ye first colonie in ye Northerne parts of Virginia...doe by these presents solemnly and mutually in ye presence of God.

JAmes McHenry was one of the signers of the Constitution and was a Christian.

Gouverneur Morris, WRITER of the final draft of the Constitution of the US, writing 'Observation on Government, Applicable to the Political State of France and Notes on the Form of a Constitution for France' -Religion is the only solid basis of Good morals; therefore education should teach the precepts of religion, and the duties of man toward God.

New England 9Synod of ) Churches 1648 defined duties of citizens, functions of civil magistrates and the nature of civil government.

I. God, Supreme Lord and King of all the world, hath ordained civil magistrates to be under him, over the people and for this own glory and the public good.

II. It is lawful for Christians to accept and execute the office of magistrate when called thereunto.

Constitution of New England Confederation 1643, as covenanted together by the colonists of New Plymouth, New Haven, MAss and Connecticut stated 'we all came to these parts of America with teh same end, to addvance teh Kingdome of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to enjoy the liberties of Gospell thereof with purities and peace, and for preserving and propagating the truth and liberties of the gospel.

New Haven Colony Charter- 1644, adopted the rules for governing the courts of the New Haven Colony station, 'The Judicial laws of God, as they were delivered by Moses...[are to] be a rule to all the courts in this jurisdiction.'

New Jersey Colony 1697 - Governor BAsse proclaimed, 'It being very necessary for...obedience to the laws of God. .encouraging...the observance of the Lord's day.

Colonial Legislature of New York Colony 1665 passed this act, 'Whereas the public worship of God is much discredited for want of painful [laborious] able ministers to instruct the people in the true religion, it is ordered that a church be built in each parish...ministers of every church shall preach every sunday...Sunday is not ot be profaned by traveling, by laborers, or vicious persons...Church wardens to report twice a year all misdemeanors, such as swearing, profaneness, Sabbath-breaking, fornication, adultery, and all such sins.

William Paterson was a signer of the Constitution and was Christian.

William Penn, Founder of Pennsylvania was a Christian also, and in 1681 wrote to a friend about the land given to him, 'Make and establish such laws as shall best preserve true Christian and civil liberty, in all opposition to all unchristian..practices.' So, you can see the founder of state was Christian and intended the state to be so. in 1701 his 'Charter of Privileges granted for the province of Pennsylvania, which stated: All persons living in this province, who confess and acknowledge the one Almighty to be the Creator....and that all persons who also profess to believe in Jesus Christ, shall be capable to serve this governement in any capacity, both legislatively or executively.'

The Charter of Pennsylvania in 1681 stated the goal of the state was, 'To reduce the savage natives by gentle and just manners to hte love of Civil soceite and Christian religion.'

Great Law of Pennsylvania in 1682, the first legislative act of the state proclaimes, 'Whereas the glory of God and the good of mankind is the reason and end of government, laws as shall best preserve true Christian and civil liberty, in opposition to all unchristian, licentious, and unjust practices, whereby God may have his due, and Caeser his due, and the people their due, from tyranny and oppression.'

Charles Cotesworth Pinckney was a singer of the Constitution and a Christian.

Charter of the Plymouth Council in 1620 declare the purpose of the colony was, 'In the hope thereby to advance the enlargement of the Christian religion, to the glory of God Almighty.'

John Pory in 1619, sought to plan the method of government which would be used in the future, 'Be it enacted by this assembly that for laying a surer foundation for the conversion of the Indians to Christian religion, each town, city , borough, and particular plantation do obtain unto themselves, a certain number of the natives' children to be educated by them in true religion and fa civil course of life.'

Samuel Pufendorf was famous for writing 'the Law of Nature and Nations' which greatly influenced our Founding Fathers. He was a Christian. his words were standard in colonial colleges and highly recommended by writers of our Constitution. He stated, 'Atheists are not, strictly speaking, God's enemies..but his rebellious subjects, and c onsequently guilty of Treason against the Divine Majesty,....It is no such obscure matter, therefore to assign the particular Species of Sin, to which Atheism belongs.' Hmm. More frowning upon Atheism from more influencial people.

Edmund Randolph was a member of Continental Congress and a delegate to the Constitutional Convention. in 1787 he moved, 'That a sermon be preached at the request of the convention on the 4th of July. (you may want to know that prayers have opened both houses of Congress ever since, and they are not prayers of a Deists, Buddhist, Islamist, etc.)

George Read was a signer of the Constitution of the US and was a Christian. He is known as the father of Delaware. He wrote the states first laws and Constitution, 'Delaware 1776 Article XXII. Every person who shall be chosen a member of either house, or appointed to any office or place of trust...shall...make and subscribe the following declaration, to wit, "I ------, do profess faith in God the Father, and in Jesus Christ, and I do acknowledge the holy scriptures of Old and New testaments to be given by divine inspiration.'

Charter of Rhode Island and Providence Plantations in 1663 reads, 'We submit our persons, lives, and estates unto our Lord Jesus Christ, pursuing ...godly edifieing themselves..in the holie Christian faith and worshipp..to sincere professions and obedience of the same faith and worship..a most flourishing civil state may stand and best be maintained...grounded upon gospel principles.'

Constitution of Rhode Island 1842- We the people and state of Rhode Island and Providence Plantations, grateful to God for civil and religious liberty which he hath so long permitted us to enjoy, and looking to him for a blessing upon our endeavors to secure and to transmit the same unimpaired to succeeding generations, do ordain and establish this constitution of Government.'

Benjamin Rush signer of the Declaration in 1798 after the adoption of the Constitution declared 'The only foundation for... a republic is to be laid in Religion.' he was a Christian also.

Roger Sherman signed all four founding documents! He was also on the commitee which decided the wording of the first amendment.

Fundamental Constitutions of the Carolinas 1663 drawn up by John Locke stated, 'No man shall be permitted to be a freeman of Carolina, or to have any estated of habitation within it that doth not acknoowledge a God, and that God is publicly and solemnly to be worshipped.

Constitution of South Carolina in 1778 Article XXXVIII -That all persons and religouis societies who acknowledge that there is one god and a future state of rewards and punishments, shall be freely tolerated....That all denominations of Christians....shall enjoy equal religious and civil privileges.

Supreme Court of South Carolina in 1846 case of City of Charleston vs S.A. Benjamin, the prosecuting attorney explained, "Christianity is part of the common law of the land. It has always been so recognized. The US Constutution allows it as part of the common law. The President is allowed ten days [to sign a bill] with the exception of SUnday. The Sabbath is still to be supported...Christianity ...is the foundation of those morals and manners upon which our society is formed." The Supreme Court Agreed with the prosecuting attorney and stated, "IN the courts over which we preside, we daily acknowledge Christianity as the most solemn part of our administration. In the case Updegraph vs The commonwealth-Christianity is and always has been a part of common law." Please prove to me this man was lying....good luck!

Do not forget Joseph Story, Justice to Supreme Court in his work 'A Familiar Exposition of the Constitution of the US' in 1840 states, "We are not to attribute this prohibition o a national religious establishment {in the First Amendment] to an indifference to religion in general, and especially to Christianity which none could hold in more reverence than the framers of the Constitution)...at the time of the adoption of the Constitution, and of the Amendment to it now under consideration, the general, if not the universal, sentiment in America was, that Christianity ought to receive encouragement from the State so far as was not incompatible with the private rights of conscience and freedom or religious worship." In his commentary of the First amendments meaning,? The real object of the First Amendment was not to countenance, much less to advance Mohammedanism, or Judaism, or infidelity, by prostrating Christianity, but to exclude all rivalry among Christian Sects and to prevent any national ecclesiastical patronage of national government."

Constitution of Tennessee 1786 stated in Article VIII Section II stated, "No person who denies the Being of God, or a future state of rewards and punishments, shall hold any office in the civil department of this state."

Jonathan Trumbull was the British Governor of Connecticut in the early 1770's wrote, 'If you ask an American, who is his master? He will tell you he has none, nor any governor but Jesus Christ.'

Constutution of State of Vermont 1786 stated 'Each member of [legislature] before he takes his seat, shall make and subscribe the following declaration, "I do believe in one God and acknowledge the Scripture of the Old and New testment to be given by divine inspiration, ? and profess the [Christian] religion.

Second Charter of Virginia in 1609 stated 'Because the principal Effect which we can expect or desire of this Action is the Conversion and reduction of the people in those parts untothe true worship of God and the Christian Religion'

Couldn't be more clearer than that! :-)

...and I only debate via email.

-Kathy P ;) aka 'Sister Cutlass of Sweet Reason' I sometimes send copies of my posts via email, especially to people whose screen names I do not know. Nevertheless, I ask to please keep replies on the boards.