Darth Vader’s Plan

SNIP

> Right, so if they were so well organised, how come they were still there while the imperials landed and started slaughtering their troops? The imperials have a temporarily disabled craft and lose 2 ATATs, while the rebels lose a base, undoubtably a lot of equipment and loads of troops. They are much less able to take the manpower losses than the empire. Again, it is purely the ion cannon that saves them, not any careful plan.

This is all true, I admit. In defence of my argument, I can only offer that "They are much less able to take the manpower losses than the empire." could be used to say that the Empire won "Star Wars", because the Empire could more afford to lose a Grand Moff and a Death Star than the Rebels could afford to lose however many fighters and the Yavin base.

SNIP

> Right, I'm sure Luke thought, as his hand was severed from his arm "goodness, it's lucky that happened. In the future that will save the galaxy from a fate worse than death." My arse. To continue the WW2 metaphor, I'm sure when Hitler took france he thought "we're going to lose now." Be wise. Also, you simply can't make a reference to an end result of luke's hand loss in a different film. I'll elaborate on this later.

SNIP

>> Given the end result, any losses can be seen as comparatively large.

> What the hell are you talking about? Comparatively large? The end result is that han gets captured, tortured and frozen. He has to flee from the imperials to a nearby system where they are waiting for him anyway. And don't say "it's only because Fett follows him". Who hired Fett? Vader.

"Bounty hunters? We don't need their scum."
It seems you do.

You are right in the short term, but the very end result is that the Imps have no captives at all.

SNIP

>>> And he was distracted by the probe droid landing which let the wompah get him. If you can use the hand thing, I can use the probe droid.

>> Eh, what? Sorry, what's this about?

> If you can link the loss of luke's hand in a tenuous manner to Vader becoming good (see above) then I can make the probe droid distracting luke a viable argument. Yes, it is a crap argument, but no less crap than yours.

I still don't understand what Luke being distracted by the Probe Droid before being walloped by the Wampa has got to do with anything I've been saying.

SNIP

>> You contradict yourself here. Earlier you claim that Han "previously only wanted in for the money and is now more concerned about saving his own neck from Jabba than the rebel cause"

> How is that a contradiction? He is more concerned about saving himself, but at the same time he is an inspirational figure for the rebellion. You can do both. You've seen the new "planet of the apes"? Marky don't-act Mark doesn't give a crap about the people around him but still inspires them to rebel. It's that sort of situation.

But with fewer applications of the plot stick. Yes, alright then.

>>> That's like saying that the allies capturing Rommel or Goering in WW2 wouldn't have been useful.

>> Only if they then handed them over to the Israelis (or similar - not sure how far this metaphor will stretch).

> Shut up now. Vader gives han to Jabba. Now are you trying to say Jabba likes Han? A better metaphor would be if The allies handed their captive over to the french resistance, or the australians (they were on our side).

No, no! You don't get it: giving a Nazi to the Jews, is what I was referring to, if somewhat indecipherably. So the Jewish Jabba doesn't like the Nazi Han at all.

SNIP

>> "In my experience, there's no such thing as luck."

> Campbell, by all rights Luke was whupped and should have been dead. It is f***ing luck.

The point I was making in that quote is: there is no luck in SW, it's all down to the Force. So it is NOT luck.

>>> that luke survives, after throwing himself off the platform at the top of cloud city. And I find it a mite suspicious that Leia, with no jedi training, can hear Luke's thoughts.

>> I think Luke broadcasts to Leia. Either that, or Leia hears because she's the other Skywalker - but that asks the question how did Luke know she would hear? Other than the fact that his alternative choices are Chewbacca, C3P0 and R2D2.

> As I said, a mite suspicious.

To rephrase my point: Luke broadcasts to Leia, as she is the obvious choice - Ben hasn't answered, Han's in Carbonite, everyone else there that Luke knows is either a droid or an alien.

SNIP

>>> R2D2 only knows about it 'cos he was pissing around talking to the cloud city computer instead of opening doors. IF R2D2 wasn't such a feckless dreg they would never have escaped.

>>>> So Darth Vader is the big loser of ESB, as he gets defeated by Han Solo’s spaceship, which doesn’t even work properly, then by his own son, who beats him by having his own hand cut off and then jumping to his doom, and then by the droidfriend of a droid he built.

>>> Let's just survey that again.

Vader: Intact, lost a couple of ships. Empire very much alive.

>> But completely failed to accomplish the one thing he spent the entire film trying to do. And that is my point.

> No, Luke survives thanks only to luck and Vader has put a massive dent in the rebellions military capability. Does the striker whose team wins 63-0 lose if HE doesn't score? I think not.

A better metaphor would be if his team drew 1-1 but he scored an OG, or something (one goal: Rebels driven off Hoth, other goal: complete lack of Skywalker capturing).

>>> Rebellion: Scattered, no home base, one general frozen in carbonite, last jedi nicknamed "lefty", ground forces depleted from massacre on hoth, head honcho is a fish. Enough said.

Don't dis the fish.

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Duncan James Campbell
u11djc@hotmail.com
"You will know it is time to turn the page when you hear R2D2 bleep, like this..."