Thomas: How do you approach the souls that come to you? If they are Moslem how do you work with them and how do you explain the differencebetween Christianity and Islam. How do you draw them in?

Fr. Daniel: I think that in any missionary work, you must first of all under-stand the culture of the people and you have to be able to speak within thebounds of that cultural language, because otherwise your word cannot beheard or understood. So, when you talk with a Moslem, you must understandthe Moslem mind. Don't just try to throw in words and phrases that arefamiliar to Christians, to Orthodox, because they will not be understood by a Moslem. First of all, when you talk to a Moslem, you have to emphasize thatGod is One.

Thomas: Because they already believe this?

Fr. Daniel: Not only because they already believe this, but because they ac-cuse us [the Christians] of having three gods. That is the problem. So, youhave to clear up the misunderstanding that we worship three gods. Don't tryto use our traditional language, like Father, Son and Holy Spirit ­ because forthem, that is three gods! In their minds, the Father is different, the Son isdifferent, the Holy Spirit is different. For myself, I emphasize that God isOne, that this One God is also the Living God, and as the Living God He hasMind. Because if God didn't have a mind, I'm sorry to say, He would be likean idiot. God has to have a mind. Within the Mind of God there is the Word. Thus, the Word of God is contained within God Himself. So, God in HisWord is not two, but one. God is full with His own Word; He is pregnantwith Word. And that Word of God is then revealed to man. The thing that iscontained within ­ like being impregnated within oneself ­ when it is re-vealed, it is called being born out of that person. That is why the Word ofGod is called the Son: He is the Child Who is born from within God, butoutside time. So, that is why this One God is called the Father, because Hehas His own Word Who is born out of Him, and is called the Son. So, Fatherand Son are not two gods. The Father is One God, the Son is that Word of God. The Moslem believes that God created the world through the Word. Sowhat the Moslem believes in as Word, is what the Christians call the Son! Inthat way, we can explain to them that God does not have a son separate from Himself.

Thomas: So the Moslems see our idea of the Son of God in terms of physicalsonship.

Fr. Daniel: Yes, of course. And God does not have a son in that way, that'strue. He is not begetting in the sense of a human being giving birth. He iscalled the Father because He produces from Himself, His own Word, andthat Word is the Son.So because God is the living God, He must have the principle of lifewithin Himself. In man, this principle of life is man's spirit. God is the same.The principle of life within God is the Spirit of God. It is called the HolySpirit. But the Holy Spirit is not the name of the Angel Gabriel, as the Mos-lems understand it. The Holy Spirit is the living principle, the principle of lifeand power within God Himself. This One God is called the Father becauseHe produced from Himself His own Word, which is called the Son, and theWord of God is called the Son because He is born out of the Father eternally,without beginning, without end. This One Living God also has Spirit within Himself. So, Father, Son and Holy Spirit is one God. This is the way weexplain to Moslems about the Trinity, and we should not try to use our lan-guage of "Father and Son, co-equal, co-..." something like that. Even thoughit is our Christian terminology, they will not understand this. The purpose isnot to theologize to them but to explain the reality of the Gospel in a way thatis understandable to them. This is point number one: you have to be clearabout the Trinity. The second point is this: the basic difference between Islam and Chris-tianity concerns revelation. In Islam, God does not reveal Himself. God onlysends down His word. "Revelation" in Islam means "the sending down of theword of God" through the prophets. And that word is then written down andbecomes scripture. So in Islam, revelation means the "inscripturization" ofthe word of God while in Christianity, it is not the same. The Word was sentdown to the womb of the Virgin Mary, took flesh and became man. Namely, Jesus Christ. So, the two religions believe that God communicated Himselfto man by means of the Word, but the difference is how that Word mani-fested in the world. In Christianity it is manifested in the person of Jesus Christ and in Islam it is manifested in the form of a book, the Koran. So, theplace of Mohammed in Islam is parallel to the place of the Virgin Mary in Orthodox Christianity. That is why in Islam the Moslems respect Mohammed,not as a god, but as the bearer of revelations. Just as the Orthodox Churchrespects the Virgin Mary not as a goddess but as the bearer of the Word ofGod, who gave birth to the Word of God. Incidentally, the two religions bothgive salutations, to Mohammed for the Moslems and to the Virgin Mary for Christians. The Moslems also have a kind of akathist, like a paraclesis but toMohammed! It is called the depa abarjanji­ in Orthodox terms it would be a"canon" to Mohammed, because he is the bearer of the revelation.

Thomas: So Mohammed is venerated like a saint?

Fr. Daniel: He is venerated, yes. Very much so. But there are also the SufiMoslems, who sometimes believe that Mohammed was "already there," likethe Arian misunderstanding of Christ. In their view, Mohammed was the"first created soul," for whom the world was created. This is called the Nor-Mohammed. So, the purpose of Islamic mystics is to be like Mohammed, toimitate him.

Thomas: To be the bearer of the Word?

Fr. Daniel: As Mohammed was.

Thomas: So, that is why Sufi mystics are perhaps not so legalistic?

Fr. Daniel:Yes, they are more mystical. So, for us, the image of the Church is the Virgin Mary. We are called tobe like the Virgin Mary in our submission to God. The Virgin Mary is thepicture, the image, or I should say, the icon of the Church. Mohammed is the"icon" of the ideal Moslem man, and because of that the way we worshipdiverges. In Christianity, because the Word became a man, became flesh, forus to be united with that Word we have to be united with the content of thatrevelation. What is the content? The incarnation, crucifixion, death and res-urrection of that Person. In order for us to be united with the content of that Holy Friday revelation, we have to be united in that Person, namely in the death andresurrection of Jesus Christ. How? Through baptism. And we also have to beunited with the life of the resurrection of that incarnate Word. How? By the Holy Spirit, through Chrismation. So, the sacraments are very important forus because God became man. He sanctified the physical world so that thephysical elements of nature can be used as the means by which we are unitedwith the person of Christ in the sacraments.In Islam, however, because the word becomes a book, the content of thebook is writing. It is not flesh. So, that is why in order for a Moslem to unitewith the content of the two-fold revelation (that God is one and that Mohammed is His prophet) one has to recite the source of revelation ­ be-cause it is a book. But you cannot be united with or immersed in a book, youcan only memorize the content of the book in the original form, namely inArabic. So, Arabic scripture is the form of that revelation. The God-Man Jesus is the form of that revelation in Christianity. In order for a person to beinitiated into Islamic revelation, you must confess the creed: "I confess that there is no God except Allah, and that Mohammed is the Apostle of Allah."When you confess that, you become Moslem. There is no baptism, you arenot united in the death of anyone, you are only united to the form of therevelation. To stay united to the revelation, you must keep the prayers. Inprayer you recite the Koran, so five times a day you pray, five times a day youimmerse yourself in the ocean of divine revelation, which is the Koran. Prayeritself is the sacrament of Islam. In order for us Christians to be immersed inthe form of the revelation, which is Jesus Christ, we have to partake of the Body and Blood of Jesus Christ continually. In that way we are united toJesus Christ, while in Islam the recitation of the Koran is the most importantthing, because it is a form of sacrament to the Moslems.So those are the basic differences. This is a way to understand the Moslem mind instead of just arguing against them.

Thomas:Would you say that most Muslims are conscious of this theologicalaspect of God and man's relationship to Him?

Fr. Daniel: Yes, of course, through the Koran, through the prophets.

Thomas: In Islam, is a person's manner of life of secondary importance tothe correct understanding of the form of revelation?

Fr. Daniel:In the manner of life, Islam refers again to the form of revelation,which is a book. The content of the book is writing, the writing is law, so thelaw has to be obeyed. If we have the imitation of Christ and His teachings,they have the imitation of Mohammed and the Koran. That is why the life of a Moslem is dictated and governed by the law of the Koran, while our life isdictated by the law of Christ in the Holy Spirit.

Thomas: What is the difference then between following these two laws?

Fr. Daniel: In Islam, there is no new birth, just a return to God, which meansrepentance. This is called submission to God.Thomas: And that is the meaning of the word Islam, "to submit?"Fr. Daniel: Yes. Islam means submission to God. That is the way we have tounderstand the difference between the way of life of Islam and of Orthodox Christianity. There are some parallel ways of thinking, but very different con-tent. The main difference is that in Orthodox Christianity the Word becameflesh and in Islam the word became a book. That is the main difference.

Thomas: How do Moslem converts to Orthodoxy sustain their belief in thepredominantly Moslem society of Indonesia? Do you have communities of Orthodox Christians who live together and support each other in the hostilereligious environment, or is the parish way of life more common?

Fr. Daniel: No, we don't really have any special kind of community where welive together. We are spread out geographically like other Christians, and wecome to the church for services. But as to how we withstand the environment­ the way I do it is that I teach very strong Bible classes in Indonesian. Everyday I have Bible study before Holy Communion. In between Orthos [Matins] and Liturgy there is always Bible study. And in my Bible study, there isalways a comparison between Christianity and Islam, all the time. It remindspeople that this is Christianity and this over here is Islam. For example, I askquestions like: "OK, in nature which is higher, a human being or a book?"Being formed by Moslem culture, some of them say "a book." So then I'll askthem, "Which is higher, then, revelation of God in the form of a humanbeing or in the form of a book?" Of course, revelation is higher in the form ofa human being. They can see that from God Himself. So, God the Wordbecome flesh, the Word become man, is higher than the word which becamea book. That's number one. Second, if in the past God sent down His wordthrough the prophets in the form of a book, namely the Old Testament, andthe Old Testament has been fulfilled completely in the form of man, JesusChrist, is it possible, after the Word of God has been fulfilled in man, thatGod would revert to the old way, sending a book again? Of course not! Whenthe Word has become man, it is already complete. And that Man, Jesus Christ,is still alive! So, it is impossible that God would again send another revelation in the form of a book. From our point of understanding, it is not possible.For us, the most perfect prophet and the last revelation of God is Jesus Christ.There is no need for any other revelation. This is the point I emphasize againand again. They understand this quite well. So this is how we keep holdingonto the path of Christ in spite of so many attacks from the Moslems.

Thomas: The Moslems pressure the Christians, then, knowing that they cantempt them with these deeply-rooted cultural ideas?

Fr. Daniel:Yes.

Thomas: Maybe you could tell us more about this. What are the difficultiesthat Christians encounter in a Moslem environment?

Fr. Daniel: You know, when you are living among a Moslem majority, some-times you are afraid of being asked about your faith. Christian people whohave been formed in a Moslem environment cannot always explain them-selves; and Moslems, fearing that Christian "heresies" will spread are alwaysready to attack ­ about the "three Gods," about "worshiping a human being,"about the cross, about all the fundamental beliefs of Christianity. Christiansare often not ready to answer these things. Also, almost every morning all ofthe Indonesian TV channels broadcast about Islam. There is no other religionbeing aired. Everyone is bombarded with Islam, the mosques are plasteredwith loud speakers and people are always talking against Christianity. Thepolice do not do anything. In this way, we have been psychologically de-feated. Many books are written attacking Christianity and there is no way toanswer them because when a Christian tries to answer about his faith he hasto criticize Islam and this is very difficult. There will be a reactionary demon-stration against him. In the city of Solo, there is a man by the name of Achmed Wilson who became a Christian. He is now on trial in court because he wasasked on a call-in radio program what he thought about Mohammed, and heanswered that he believed as a Christian. So, this is a great problem for himnow. Things like this are very common.

Thomas: So there is no real religious freedom?

Fr. Daniel: No. Don't even think about it. It is very difficult when you live insuch a society. You are allowed to criticize the idea of God because god is ageneral term. The Buddhists believe in a god, the Hindus believe in a god, theChristians believe in a god, but don't criticize Mohammed because that isdistinctly Islamic. You can criticize the idea of God, you can become an athe-ist, but don't say anything about Mohammed or you'll be in trouble.

Thomas:How do former Moslems who convert to Orthodoxy cope withfamily situations? Are they able to continue to live with their non-Christianfamily members? Are they accepted?

Fr. Daniel: Some of them are accepted and some are not. There are caseswhen they return to their former beliefs, to their families, and confess Islamagain, although when they meet me they still say that they believe in Christ. They do believe and they worship secretly in their homes, but they cannotcome to church. Several of our people are like that. Some of the families arebetter. They are more open and they let their children continue in their Christian faith without being disturbed. It differs with each person, from area toarea, and even from one ethnic group to another. Some ethnic groups aremore fanatical than others.

Thomas: How do you encourage Orthodox Christians to conduct them-selves in public given this dangerous environment? We here in Europe oftenread about persecution and martyrdom in Indonesia.

Fr. Daniel: I always teach them that if there is no possible way to escape (even if we have been trying to be good and obey the laws of society), if webecome known as a believer, if they stigmatize us as unbelievers as heretics orwhatever, then it is obvious there is no other way ­ if martyrdom comes, thenIndonesian priest, Fr. Alexios, during wedding Orthodoxy in Indonesiawe have to accept it. If you cannot escape being a martyr, do it! Go for it! Iteach this in church, and I say, even to myself, that there is no other way. Butstill, we do not try to provoke other people. Even if we evangelize, we evange-lize nicely, explaining our faith like: "this is your faith and this is our faith."We do not degrade other people's beliefs.

Thomas:How would you encourage Christians to look at Moslems? Thereare two tendencies in the West: either to unconcernedly accept Islamic peopleand ideas regardless of their growing numbers and cultural and religious in-fluence; or to see them as bogey men responsible for many of the world'scurrent political problems. Of course, we know that as individuals there aremany wonderful individual Moslem people who are charitable and generousto their neighbors regardless of creed, but for many of us the overall influenceof modern Islam, particularly on Christian populations, is a question. We donot want to be naive on one hand, nor uncharitable on the other. Do youhave any thoughts on this?

Fr. Daniel:It is a difficult problem indeed, even for us, because there isalways a dialectical relationship between us and them. In Indonesia, becausethey are the majority, we have to befriend them, there is no other choice.Individually, we must treat them as anyone should be treated ­ with love. Buttheologically we have to stand on what we believe to be true, there can be nocompromise.

Thomas: What do you see for the future of Orthodoxy in Indonesia?

Fr. Daniel: I cannot see into the future but I believe that Orthodoxy willcontinue to grow. It depends on more people receiving an Orthodox educa-tion ­ the more the better. Right now in Indonesia, Orthodoxy is still identi-fied with myself. When people think of Orthodoxy they think of me. Weneed to have more young people educated. Sometimes people do not under-stand this ­ but I try my best. I try to send as many people as possible to Russia, to Greece, but I am not a bishop so I don't have the power to arrangethings so easily. If I become a bishop, I will send as many people as possibleabroad to gain experience and education in Orthodoxy, so that when I die,someone can continue the work. This is the main point.

Thomas: How does Orthodoxy in Indonesia differ in tone or custom fromthe West? What is it like in your churches?

Fr. Daniel: Of course it is different, first of all because we are not Westernpeople, we are Asian. So, we express our faith in an Asian way. We do not sitin chairs, we sit on the floor on a mat. We put off our shoes when we enter thechurch, women wear the kafer [traditional Indonesian garb] and a veil. Wehave adapted some other cultural expressions, like in the wedding ceremonywhere we use our traditional Indonesian attire. We do not use koliva for thedead, for instance, because we do not eat wheat ­ it is difficult to find! Weuse rice. We make use of what we have. It's very Indonesian, very Asian. So,the Orthodox Church in Indonesia is more eastern than in Greece or Russia or Europe! We can't be afraid for Orthodoxy to take on local forms.* [Ed. Note] As a result of the strong Arabic roots of Islam, Moslems of other ethnicbackgrounds also view themselves as religiously Semitic peoples, the descendants of Abraham, like the Jews. Most Eastern peoples view Christianity as a Western phenomenonbecause of its associations with colonialism and missionaries from the West.

Fr. Daniel'sintent is to show Orthodoxy as the fulfillment of Indonesian culture - a corrective toChristian missionaries who have tried to impose Western life-styles as an integral part of Christian belief.

Thomas: Can we use this as a measure of the depth of penetration of Ortho-doxy into a culture?

Fr. Daniel: Yes. The content is visible in the form. That also goes for peopleconverted to Orthodoxy in the Greek or Russian traditions who are them-selves not Greek or Russian.

Thomas: Does the Indonesian Orthodox community have services in Indonesian or in Greek?

Fr. Daniel: Of course, in Indonesian.

Thomas: What about other languages?

Fr. Daniel: Sometimes if we have guests, here and there we have somethingin Greek or English. Sometimes even in Russian.

Thomas:A more personal question for you. What are the greatest tempta-tions in your work?

Fr. Daniel: (Laughs) To leave it because it is too difficult. I know that I havemy talent, and that I can always teach. Sometimes I just want to go be aprofessor at the university. Again and again, God has helped me to stay whereI am, to remember my calling. It is difficult because I have a lot of responsi-bility to pay for this or that, to help young people begin theological study atthe university. I must pay for these things every month. I think I have moreresponsibilities than people who have their own children!

Thomas: What is your greatest sorrow?

Fr. Daniel: My greatest sorrow . . .when I'm trying to do my best, and I amaccused of things that I did not do.

Thomas:And your greatest joy?

Fr. Daniel: The greatest joy is when someone is converted to Orthodoxy.

Thomas:Who are the saints who have helped you, the ones you feel closestto?

Fr. Daniel: My own patron saint, St. Daniel the Prophet. I chose that namebecause I believe that he had such a strong heart. He had courage against the kingand the lions; and I am living among the lions, let me tell you. I want to havehis courage.