My Home Page. ----- Back to Interactive Menu Page.
This page modified 09 May 2002 - changes in this color.
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Does anyone have VideoPack 5.1 working in DVD?
Whilst they have fixed many of the things I created about on my web page (comments refered to are below).
I still have this trouble with version 5.1 where the menu image is made into a 10 second mpeg stream vob and only plays for 10 seconds and then the menu page becomes inactive, buttons do not work until you make the image stream play again.
Not only that, the stream is produce in "progressive" and coded in the DVD info file as an NTSC MPEG 1 (the project is PAL) but bitrate viewer says its MPEG2 and PAL all 250 frames of the bmp image.
Other DVD programs DO NOT appear to make an image into a separate 10 second vob files like VP5 does.
Does anyone else experience this inactive button business and if not, how do you get around it?
Maybe its just a PAL thing!
It is interesting that infoEdit says there are errors in the VP5 DVD info file produced by the program such as:
"there is something wrong with this file" and then the error:
Then one cannot do any corrections to the titleset unless one copies it to the hard drive first.
One cannot actually get direct to Roxio with comments unless one has paid for the program and who in their right mind would do that?
I have only an interest in 16:9 these days and since few people are interested I am rather inactive on the forum but maybe someone can comment even so, hopefully not just a single line "Oh it works for me".
Thanks
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Like a lot of programs VP5 has the potential and the 16:9 function but as usual it gets it wrong like most 16:9 authoring programs that DO NOT provide the goods because the programmers never use there stuff, if they did it would be a different world we live in.
SpruceUp was by far the best 4:3 authoring program at consumer level but when the future is 16:9 anbd it was taken over before updating. I guess one tries to get up there in advance and mostly that means using inadequate programs just like it was back in the late 1990's.
I have not listed all of the VP5 problems here, most listed on my Vp5dvd page (comments below) remain in version 5.1, add buttons that do not show and its almost never ending.
I have a demo disk with 7 menu layers (most probably most have never done a project to that level before) that relate to this aspect and for someone who is actually using VP5, particularly in PAL, I would like them to use infoEdit to read and see if the menus are NTSC, use Bitrate viewer to check if the menu stream is progressive which will not appear as a fault on the computer screen but has problems with jumpy lines on the TV.
Its just a lack of accurate programming no doubt and a complete disregard for PAL and who ever wants a 4:3 menu to pan and scan OR letterbox?
Of course most will sit back in their comfortable lounge chairs, it cannot happen to me, well! Yet they will complain like hell down the track when "gezzzzzzz something is wrong with what I think is OK!!!!!!!! it will not do what I want now that I have more experience and want more from what I do".
If someone has an email address for Roxio support that would be very useful because I bet they do not read a forum like this.
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Here is part of a "inf" file as read by infoEdit:
VP has possibilities but fails the testing so far.
They need some good beta testers prepared to work the program to the limit and get the bugs out before. Fancy paying $500 and still 6 months later having this sort of problem.
What amazes me is that WE LET IT GO ON without a word and when some one does create its considered "it never happens to me - what the hell are you on about." Wish I had an email address for support at Roxio, someone here must have bought the thing and have access!
One thing VP5 is good for is playing a project to video tape with all the trimmings of the DVD menu on the tape, well, when they work that is. Be nice if someone would just have a little peak at the info files your using in PAL just to see if that side of my complaints are supported. If not, why not I wonder?
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As I said about version 5 and version 5.1 in the conversion of any mpeg or still image to a mpeg, VP5 makes it progressive and not "interlaced" - bloody marvelous for a computer but one must be carefull with motion for the TV, god help anyone making an mpeg stream that VP5 does not like it will destroy the clip for a TV by making it progressive.
So all you bright sparks out there that do not part with much information and have total success with VP5, how do you stop it doing a progressive conversion?
I do not seem to be able to find a setting parameter that will hold and retain "Bottom Field" interlaced in the conversion, a conversion that you or me as a user have no control over AT ALL.
In the mean time full use of 16:9 full screen menus which letterbox on a 4:3 TV but not without some corrections to what Roxio provides. Just be carefull in what you choose as buttons from the list or they may well jump off the TV screen.
Thanks Mr infoEdit and to Gareth Horne for pointing the way in the programs use. Its a free program that can be the means of fixing the mess that is outputed from VideoPack 5+
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In the definitions for Interlaced and Progressive Roxio have assumed everyone in the world is going to have a "modern" TV that is fast enough to play progressive scan video. Is that so! Well if you are lucky enough to have such a device then good, you will have some success with VP5 but those that are left with "slow TV's" are going to get jumpy images from a VP5 project on such a TV.
Those editing on the PC of course will not see the problem until perhaps they have burnt the DVD and played it on the "old TV" good luck! You will need it! Its just lucky I edit to the Studio level TV monitor.
Here is Roxio's definition of Interlaced:
and for Progressive:
My professional level studio TV monitor is just not fast enough, gezzzzzzzzzz Roxio why can you not have a simple option in the presets to cope with those with slow TV's - select progressive conversions or interlaced conversions of mpeg? All motion menus and those based on still images will be progressive as they are automatically reprocessed during image creation.
Well its back to SpruceUp, they like some other providers are not that stupid.
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Menus based on images that run out of steam after 10 seconds and require the "next" key to be programmed to repeat the play
Converted mpeg streams or images developed in 16:9 actually loose the tag for 16:9 and revert to being 4:3 - thank goodness for infoEdit.
There still seems to be some sort of limit on the number of vobs in the project - infoEdit could not actually edit from 10 onwards and the info files contain errors that may be a problem.
Still a program NOT to USE for DVD, particualrly if you are serious and do not have a TV that will play a progressive scan video image. To pay $500US for a restrictively based authoring program is rediculous.
DVD Authoring comments:
In my view VP5 is inadequate for authoring DVD's, indeed its not fit for purpose and should be withdrawn and updated to achieve the most basic principals required by the consumer market for a home brewed DVD.
Strong words indeed so let me illustrate why I make this statement.
What do you want from a DVD?
Because people will have this program and want to use it I will describe my experiences and in the process justify the opening statements. At the end of this discussion you will be able to author a DVD with VP5 but do not expect the full tote odds of even the simplest professional product from this program. There are differences in the way the program functions in DVD authoring mode, some of the problems to be described exist in SVCD but of necessity will be repeated here and adjusted to suit the DVD authoring outcome as necessary.
Understanding the use of images in this program
Let me describe the use of images with a specific example. Assume we want to add an introductory title image as the starting point for the project. The image is not intended as a menu so we use the "slide show" process. You simply drag the image into the working area and you will find the defaults for this image are a playing time of 10 seconds with a preset "fit image to the screen size". The default "timeout" is set to zero. Timeout relates to how long the delay is after playing the image and before the next action occurs.
In the work area to the right select the option to provide a slide show. Double click the image. The drop down window will allow you to change the playing time, lets make it 5 seconds. You can re-define the operation of the image - select one of the 4 options related to how you present it in relation to the TV or computer screen, be very wary of changing this option as you may get some surprises. Spin the image sideways, upside down and even add text as a sub title if you wish. The authoring process will convert the image to a mpeg stream and burn up disk space as a result, the longer the time selected the more space required.
Another warning: if you decide to change the image by adding a new one over an existing one then be prepared for the fact that BOTH images may be part of the final project. I had an example of using an image and setting infinity as the time out. I decided to change it to another image with a play time of 5 seconds. Gezzzzzzz the encode to CD-DVD contained both images, the new one for 5 seconds followed by the old one with no exit. I missed the fact that when you select "slide show" both overlayed images will be shown. Delete the 2nd image and the problem will not occur. You can also use a motion video title file as the opening title for the DVD.
The Menu
My view is that the default time of 10 seconds is insufficient to allow reading of the menu and making any choices before the buttons become inactive. Testing via my Hollywood plus card software, PowerDVD AND from a burnt by remote DVD-RW in the UK indicates that unless you program a key to reactivate the buttons, or increase the play time, only the keypad will operate the menu choices. Not all software provides a usable keypad either. The end of play is indicated by the button color overlay disappearing altogether from the menu page.
I have therefore settled for a play time of 20 seconds and the burnt up space that induces in the disk with the "next key" as the re run button activator. The image is converting to a mpeg stream in the authoring process. A very big penalty for those authoring CD-DVD's with a limit of perhaps 700 megs on the disk. Set the "timeout" from the properties option to "infinity" (inf) and you have the basics of a VP5 DVD menu to work and struggle with.
You must also become familiar with the Button Editor and its use in building a set of buttons. Buttons will only appear over the menu image as you add play items to the menu image. You can add buttons to a menu and make them refer to any other play item but you will find some restrictions in operation of this aspect - you may also pay dearly for the alternate option in the allocation of space required for the addition. See discussion below. You will find getting consistent sizing of the buttons and their positions on the menu is quite frustrating and totally inaccurate. You should consider seriously using your own buttons developed outside the program with Photoshop or equivalent and used in conjunction with the provided invisible button option called "none".
If you have more than 2 buttons on the menu it is almost certain the up, down, right and left direction keys will not function correctly. My experience is that if I have 3 buttons, for example, in a vertical line, the page opens with number one button at the top, highlighted, great but what if I want another highlighted as the starting point? If I operate the down button the next button to be activated is not number 2 BUT number 3 at the bottom. Further use of the down key then highlights number 2, the middle button, and if I use the up key from button 3 it goes to button 1 not 2. Gezzzzzzzzzzzz I am speachless! This occurs with the Hollywood card software and PowerDVD but I cannot say what the situation is with a DVD-RW on a set top player as the "by remote" example only had two buttons.
Chapter Points and their use!
Its a simple operation to add the points - simply move the "projector" along the track, find the actual frame in the graphic for entry and use the tool button to add the blue flag - iluustrated with point 2 in the image. Proceed in a similar way for any others in your video track and the result will be as shown in the image above.
Now be aware that if you save the project with a blue flag showing, the track will begin playing from that point so you may have to add as the last operation a blue flag at the 00000 start of the track to ensure starting at the front. The program will not actually add it a zero and you will have to drag it back along that film graphic (that thing we must have) with the mouse. In addition, you may prefer this option: if you delete the intended zero zero flag after adding it, ALL flags in the track will be greyed out and the track will begin at the start and the "next key" will go from your set chapter point to the next. That is the only intent that Roxio has in relation to setting chapter points - I do not think it comes close to satisfying what the consumer needs let alone the professional selling the product.
My view is, and always has been, that there should be a capability to play a scene list from an “in point” to an “out point” with accuracy and not to be forced to manually end the play as will be necessary with only defined in points. It is available in other programs for SVCD. It is only a dream with this and other DVD authoring programs it seems.
However, can we screw this program to at least achieve a list of chapters played from another menu page - a simple requirement that I receive emails about but ....... lets see!
In this test project (left image) we have a title opening, a main menu 1 with 2 video tracks T1 & T2 and a third option that takes us to a menu page (menu 2) with the intention of playing individually marked chapters in the second track by selecting buttons from the menu. The image on the right shows the marked chapter point for track T2-2. The first track T1 has chapter points added as described above and works fine from chapter to chapter provided the "next" key returns to menu 1. These video tracks are quite different in content and I do not see the point of the "next key" of the first track going to track 2, as will be the case if you use the "routing button". Whats the point of a menu if that is the case?
Video tracks T2-1 & 2 are two options that allow specific entry into track T2 but at different defined points available as buttons on the menu. You can only do that by making sure the blue flag is not greyed out for the point you wish to enter at. Always notice other points in the track are greyed out AND if you use the "next or previous keys" whilst within the track the system will jump to that point. At one stage in this process I had these "copied" files coded as "copy of the appropriate track" and that allowed only one blue flag and no visible grayed out chapter points with better control, but I have not been able to re-produce that option since accidentally achieving it.
Now to the real crunch in this process and something that never happened under similar requirements in SpruceUP. The Tracks T2-1 & 2 are "Copies" of the main Track T2, generated with the copy option that is available by right clicking the "new" item with Track 2 activated. No big deal and easy to do. The authoring system actually makes another copy of each track so my 182 meg Track T2 is repeated twice on the CD for an additional space requirement of 364 megs. I do not believe someone could use such logic, try doing it with a 1 hour track with 6 chapters and you would be totally blown away and so should the programmer.
SpruceUp did not use this flawed logic and one could add as many chapter points with associated buttons anywhere in the project on any other menu pages WITHOUT any increase in disk space requirements, indeed you could nominate which button was activated when first opening the menu page. The amazing thing to me is that in VP5 SVCD authoring no additional space was invoked by using this process. I think this alone justifies my opening statements. VP5 is only suitable for very limited un-identified, not related to a separate menu, chapter entry points and I find that unbelievable in a consumer industry that requires at least the same as a simple professional DVD - VP5 is a failure as a result!
Other comments!
My two track project, which I also used for remote burning to DVD-RW in the UK, was originally indicated as having used 550 megs of space and a time was given as 62:35:70. 70 min CD-RW media. The actual burn space requirement was 828megs – failure and I did not find out till I went to burn the disk. Silly me of course! Its interesting that when you burn an c2d image and reload it into the program, the indicator shows the correct values. Something also needs to be done about that in my view.
In relation to the data rate required to provide a full disk, as indicated with SpruceUp the calculation for a 70 minute CD-R is:
680 times 136.5 divided by the track time in minutes. Take off the 224 for audio and set the encoder accordingly and you will probably get through the process even though the indicator will tell you a lot more space is available. For 4.7GB DVD-R media use 4200 instead of the 680 as a starting point.
Unlike SVCD, I could not get the CDROM simulator to work with my Hollywood Plus card. It keeps telling me that and the computer DVD player are incompatible from a region code point of view. VP5 produces a regionless encode and my Hollywood/Pioneer DVD ROM in the computer are set to be regionless as well.
My old software player SthDVD does not see the “L” drive correctly for DVD and will only play individual vobs. I have PowerDVD which actually works just fine but the initial start of each selected track provides a "flashing" on and off image, which again does not occur with a SpruceUp project of the same source material.
My "DVD by remote" of a full DVD-R appears to be doomed with this program since I cannot find, unlike SpruceUp, any option to actually author a “title set” to the hard drive. The c2d image that contains the title set (explorer will see it in the simulator) is not directly accessible it would appear. Restrictive, as that means the remote burn somewhere else can only be done in a similar program.
Motion Buttons: The image on the right of the header for this page shows a menu developed in the VP5 program, using motion buttons and a gold frame surround over a SpruceUp background. As already indicated the buttons appear to be controlled by the play time set for the menu page and stopped working when the time had expired. Frankly I have not persued this aspect, for obvious reasons I think and cannot therefore make any helpful comments.
It seems to me its quite a problem trying to cope with the various ways a DVD player can behave and still be said to comply with the DVD specification. You may very well find what plays correctly on your player will not play correctly on another and that in my view is reason enough to be conservative in the design of your DVD.
My dream of full screen 16:9 with menus is still a pipe dream. Initial testing with a Panasonic 16:9 PAL TV in the UK indicates that it is possible to get menus to fill the screen but so far we have failed with VP5 projects to get a 16:9 project to correctly fill the TV screen from the Panasonic DVD player. The strange thing to me is that I can achieve automatic letter boxing of the 16:9 vision in a 4:3 TV with the hollywood card software. With PowerDVD on a computer it provids a framed 16:9 product which perhaps indicates we are to be controlled by the DVD player. Ah well, in a world like this, and with computers, DVD players and TV's, what can we really expect to be right if we also find the provider does not provide? At this point in time, none of my friends involved with testing VP5 are commiting to an expensive DVD-R and I believe that says it all!
Getting something out of this program - a summary!
1) Be very simple in your expectations from the program.
2) Choose the title item with care and because of the restrictions associated with this program I have opted to use a "warning" up front that tells the facts about the menus and how they may become in active and need re-activation.
3) Make the first menu as the main one and do nothing fancy inbetween.
4) Always use the "new element" button to add items to the work area. Only drag your play items, images and video to an empty element. As you add them set playing times and wait times immediately you add the item. Delete elements only with the delete button. Be ready for the fact that the source thumbnails will probably change in what is depicted, bmp's may become green avi's. The wrong images may be shown and as a result the tree will not necessarily show the correct images. The only thing that maybe correct by the end of your project is the names of the files you use. When you go to the buttom editor the correct images will be shown and when you use the slide show option the images will, in general, be correct.
5) Be very aware of the problem that menus will only play for the time you designate. Set the time to at least 20 seconds for all menus with choices on them, more choices, a greater time must be set. Program the "next" key to return to the menu so that you can re activate the menu or the whole project will lockup. Be aware also that not all software players have the equivalent of what you get on a stand alone DVD player. Often there is no direct return key available and you may find it dificult to check all the functions a set top DVD player provides. Choose your buttons carefully and almost hope for the best that all will be OK when you go to a RW burn.
6) Where you are using images without play items attached (equivalent of pages of information perhaps) but attached to a menu, be it main or a sub menu, you can actually set a play time of 1 second PROVIDED you use infinity as the wait time. Program the "next" key to continue to the next item and/or return to the menu from whence it started. DO NOT under any circumstances add buttons as they will become inactive with the 1 second time allowance (space saving). It is not enough time to re activate the buttons and make a choice. It may not be truly DVD in operation but it will a least be functional and less frustrating. Just try and be very consistant in your approach and use something that is proven to work.
7) Check the build as you go and load an image into the virtual drive and eject the image file from the drive before you try to save a new version of the c2d image file. Use your chosen software player and make sure it all operates as you intended. I use PowerDVD for this. The hollywood plus card I use to check a actual disk which I suggest should only be RW type media. Do not commit to R media until you have check all your programmed functions or pay the penalty of not achieving what you want.
8) Do not, under any circumstances, attemp to build a Chapter Play List accessible from another menu UNLESS you have bags of space up your sleeve. Add your chapters in a video track and they will be available whilst playing that track only, a useless option in my view.
9) Be aware also that I do not think, or could find an option in the choices for presentation of an image to maintain its aspect ratio. If you author a 4:3 aspect ratio image now, and later update your TV to a 16:9, I believe the outcome may well be that all images will be stretched to fill the 16:9 screen and therefore your 12:9 image will be 33% fatter at 16:9, unbelievable!
The program appears to have a limitation of 9 chapters as I have been uable to play any chapters from 10 & beyond. Remembering that video playing items and menus each become a "chapter" then this is a real limitation and frankly makes the program quite unsuitable for complex DVD menus.
I have also had some bad burns with the DVD program and currently have 3 RW's that I cannot erase at all in any burner, only happened when burning from an image in DVD format, so as a result, I have abandoned VP5's use for DVD.
First written 16 November 2001 and re written based on experience 20 December 2001.
I do not have the time to do a revamp of this page to cover the problems that still exist with the updated version 5.1, instead here are copies of my postings on the SVCD forum which attempted to get help from others who were thought to be successful.
I still have trouble with the new version 5.1 of the program, its practically useless as an effective DVD provider. However, maybe someone does not find that and can help:
the file position does not match the offset in table xyz, OR
IFO end sector does not match the file size.
"AiaNaix" I think you are missing the point, SpruceUp does not fully support 16:9 but it can be partly tweeked with infoEdit to auto letter box 16:9 on 4:3 TV's etc. Afterall a commercial DVD can be played correctly on both 16:9 and 4:3 TV's why not the homebrew???????
One should read a comercial DVD and compare it with what Roxio produces. All VP5 menus produced by my update to 5.1 are coded 4:3 but also with "pan & scan" and "letterboxed" and no commercial DVD does that and SpruceUp does not either, so where is Roxio coming from with what appears to be a faulty logic that may also present a problem.
Since VP5 automatically converts still images to mpeg then a get-around is to make use of the fact. Use a motion menu background of say 40 seconds in length, program the next key to re-activate the menu, add some music all based on a correctly sized still bmp image processed as a stream from Premier 6, after authoring copy the lot to the hard drive, another 4G of spaced used and then use infoEdit to correct the wrong things in the VP5 "info" files and bobs-your-uncle, or nearly so!
The reason for some of the mess is discovered:
Quote "Because it was previously not possible to display high-quality images on TV devices quickly enough (flicker-free), it was decided that instead of showing 25 high-resolution images per second, 50 images with half the resolution will be shown. Each interlaced image is referred to as a field. The first field consists of the odd numbered lines and the second of the even numbered lines. Video cameras actually always generate interlaced material (TV boards do as well)." Unquote
Quote "Since TV devices have become fast enough to also show high-resolution images, it is no longer necessary to use interlaced images. Instead, pictures with the full resolution are shown directly. This process is called progressive scan. So-called MOVIE material (also referred to as true film material) consists of non-interlaced images." Unquote
So in summary VP5.1 has fixed somethings such the counter, the double callup problem and left a lot of un resolved issues, the restrictive decision not to cope with "old TV's" is a downfall in its use even if the the following did not occur:
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For me authoring a DVD is very specific, I do not have a DVD burner. My only choices then are a CD-DVD (called a mini DVD by some) that few set tops will play and a full "DVD by Remote burnt from a title set by someone else. This process was discussed in detail on my web page concerning the use of the SpruceUp DVD authoring program in December 2000. SpruceUP did not survive, taken over and the product killed off in the process. SpruceUp was not 16:9 capable but VP5 supposedly is, and it is for this reason alone that I have tried to get to grips with it.
Basically I would suggest, to simulate the professional DVD which in its simplest form has a main track, chapter points and a scene list based on those chapter points selected from appropriate menu pages. VP5 cannot provide even these simple functions as an end product without some serious restrictions making it an undesirable product when compare with almost any other DVD authoring product.
Surprise, surprise the defaulted use of the image in VP5 is to produce a "slide slow" and if you miss this aspect when you come to your menus then they will be less effective.
Once again you drag in the image file, or you can add a new play item with the "add new" tool button, attach it to the title image and proceed immediately to change the defaults to give effective useage as a menu. Be very aware that setting the playing time for the image has an extra-ordinary effect on the menu process. It not only defines how long the still image plays BUT how long the selection buttons play. Currently at the end of the image play time the buttons stop working and you cannot select a play item from the menu until you re activate the page and therefore its buttons. You will have to program a key to achieve this by making sure it returns to the same menu page, for example just click on the "next" key to make the selection not go anywhere but to the same menu. It will be hard luck if you wish to add sub layers accessible by the menu key. I mention the "next key" because some software players do not have keys such as the "return" key and then again you may want that to do some other action with that key. The "run" or "default" key option may not be available either.
Every person I know in this DVD authoring business wants "chapter points" as the main outcome of the process. In VP5 logic, chapter points are simple "in points" spread along a track that allows you to enter the track and view from that point in a track to the END or with a manual exit if before the end, menu or title keys perhaps. In theory you will jump to the "next chapter" with the "next key".
As with SVCD there is a major problem with the usage indicator, it is wildly out in what it indicates and frankly its a bit rough to find the project will not fit on the disk AT the burn stage, even though it is full green all the way through the preparations.
Here are a few get-arounds that may result in getting a usable DVD from this program without the frustration it can generate. If you paid money for it then its even more important that you get something in return.