Conversations with Kevin Lawrence
Speaking with the proprietor of www.crueltyfree.com
With contributions from LiveJournal users:
heathergalaxy, thathollygirl, xellinamazoku,
daydream_me, lucystrawberry, kejlina, and freakshownia
and from:
one-time crueltyfree.com member, xherbivorex, a.k.a. LJ user we_fought_harder
Compiled by LiveJournal user we_brought_pie
Please contact me via email (we_brought_pie @t y@h00 d0t c0m) if you would like your email exchange with Kevin Lawrence to be added to this page.
The source of this conversation is here.
Hi Kevin,
I am a vegan librarian. I've been vegan for a 11 years and I thought about
joining your site before, however today I heard that you did not support the
rights of all animals. Perhaps you are not aware that humans are animals.
Perhaps you did not know that animals (from humans, to birds, to chimps, to
rats, etc.) come in a range of sexual orientations and genital body part
formulations ( i.e. intersex). We can't ask most other animals if they have a
range of gender, but we do know that human animals do experience a range of
gender from everything from man, woman, boy, girl, genderqueer, both, none (and
that's just getting started!). However, whether or not you were ignorant of
this does not give you the right to spew violent hateful slurs at queer, trans,
and gender variant people.
Human rights do not come before or after "animal" rights: they come
at the same time. I highly suggest listening to the Vegan Freaks podcast to get
yourself educated on abolitionist veganism and see why this is the case.
The sources are here and here.
I am appalled to learn that you seem to think that so much
as ACKNOWLEDGING transgendered or genderqueer people is incompatible with
helping animals. I would think that you'd grant more respect to those in the AR
movement, but evidently your own bigoted views are blinding you. People,
cisgendered or not, are animals, too.
If you really want your site to live up to its motto, maybe you should learn a
little tolerance. Until then, I'll be telling every AR-minded person I know to
avoid your site like the plague.
Please delete my account; I'm thathollygirl.
You are an absolute fucking idiot. Please tell your friends who are more concerned with gender labels to avoid my site. We concentrate on AR. Take your gender prefs to another site. What a fucking joke you are. Sorry but no matter who you are you are either M or F. One Division - No Division meas for the Animals. No matter what your level of AR you are welcome. But to waste my fucking time with your gender pref and astrology sign.. Youre a fucking joke. Take your gender queer friends and start a genderqueer AR site. Fuck off and go suck a cock. You fucking moron."
The source of this conversation is here.
I had intended to sign up for you webiste. What a wonderful
idea, I thought. And it is. But unfortunately it has been brought to my
attention that you delete the accounts of people who do not indentify as
cisgendered heterosexuals, after sending them hateful emails in response to a
simple and valid inquiry. I'm proud that you stand up for animal rights, but
human rights matter too, and I have changed my mind about joining your website,
as have dozens of other animal rights activists.
Sincerely,
Danny
Please done. Because getting shit for not having every
category that you can think of obviously makes me a bad person. Go spend time
helping animals, and less time worrying about labels. I can already see the
drama that the "gender" crowd brings. Thank god you dont want to join
my site. I think Care 2 you can create a I hate CrueltyFree.com because they
wont add genderqueer to theit list" group. While you do that I will be
helping animals and not worrying about labels.
Good Luck.
Kevin
[Note: Kevin’s words are in italics, xellinamazoku’s words are in plain text.]
>Please done.
Pardon?
>
Because getting shit for not having every category that you can think of
obviously makes me a bad person.
I did not call you a bad person, nor did I intend to imply it.
>
Go spend time helping animals,
I do that every day. Incidentally, humans are animals.
>
and less time worrying about labels.
As I expressed in my e-mail, it was not the labels that concerned me, but the
fact that you flame members who politely request different options, and even go
as far deleting accounts of members who have not broken the rules or terms of
service. Why post that free speech is one of your top priorities on your main
page when people who attempt to speak are banned?
>
I can already see the drama that the "gender" crowd brings.
Baseless stereotyping using two or three people as an example to paint everyone
who is not cisgendered with the same brush.
>Thank god you don't want to join my site.
Why? If I'm an animal rights activist, and a vegan, and I merely don't like
seeing fellow activists getting their accounts deleted based on questions they
probably felt safe asking due to your "free speech" policy, why would
you not want me as a member of your website? For the third time, it is not the
fact that you have only male and female options available that has caused me to
think twice about joining, it is your total disregard for your members, and the
fact that you deleted the account of someone who didn't break the rules. How do
I know my account will not be deleted, also?
>I think Care 2 you can create a I hate CrueltyFree.com because they wont
add genderqueer to theit list" group.
I don't hate your website. I think it's an excellent idea. But would I be safe
there, as a non cisgendered animal rights activist?
>While you do that I will be helping animals and not worrying about
labels.
I will be helping oppressed animals, too. Non-human and human alike.
>Good Luck.
Why thank you!
--Danny
The sources of this conversation are here and here.
Hello Kevin
I am writing in response to the unbelievable rudeness and bigotry with which
you have addressed several of my vegan colleagues. Your hateful attitude
towards those who do not conform to a narrow gender binary is distressing and
alienating; your name calling and mudslinging is downright childish. This all
casts a dark shadow over the more tolerant members of the AR movement, and
earns us as a movement a bad name. Furthermore, your willingness to overlook
the very real safety issues that these types of networking sites can pose for
its female members, is very telling of a serious lack of both compassion and
common sense on your part.
In case you have forgotten, I would like to remind you that the AR movement is
not just concerned with liberating animals from cages, but also liberating
people from their ignorance and closed hearts. In order to do this, of course,
the members of the AR movement use a kind, tolerant, and logical extension of
compassion to marginalized and exploited populations - animal and human. Your
message of "One Vision - No Division" is a bitter lie. Instead of
uniting the unique, diverse, and powerful voices that constitutes the AR
movement, you have proven yourself a failure and a fraud to the many members -
and potential members - of your website. I had considered joining your site,
but that is no longer a possibility for me. The vegans and AR warriors that I
admire do not discriminate.
Julia
Thank you JW for your letter. Think of me what you will. I will concentrate on liberation animals. You can concentrate on the labels that you dont like. I think my battle is more important. But that’s just in my eyes.
Hi Kevin
Please remember that liberating animals and compassion and understanding
towards people are not mutually exclusive. In fact, they go hand in hand. I
have the capacity to concern myself with both, and will do so.
J
The source of this conversation is here.
Hello Kevin,
I am in an online community with a person who goes by the handle
we_brought_pie. They shared with the community your response to their concerns
about being forced to pick male or female as a gender.
I cannot believe you consider yourself a progressive, sensitive person. Your
response was so intolerant. As an animal rights activist, are you not used to
having beliefs you hold dear to yourself being mocked by tons of people? I
would think that would teach you to show more respect to the dearly held
convictions and cares of other people.
I hope you will calm down and consider the harm you have caused and realize
that the graceful way to respond to this would have been not to say "give
me a break". This is not the way to show compassion and make a better
world.
My focus is liberating animals. Not fixing societys labels
of the disenfranchised. I can only please so many people. I really could not care
less about labels which is why I could not care less of your opinion of me. I
will continue to fight for the innocent voiceless while you quibble over
labels.
lucystrawberry
The issue is not your focus. Your focus on animal rights is fine. The issue is
that you were needlessly rude to we_brought_pie and that you purposefully chose
to treat another person with such rudeness and disrespect when it was NOT
necessary.
The issue is not pleasing people. The issue is respecting other people and not
treating them with contempt.
The source of this conversation is here.
[Note: kejlina noted in hir comment’s title: “This is all tongue-in-cheek AND I DONT ENDORSE BLOWING UP LABS.”]
Hi, I'm writing this letter to inform you that in the time
you spent writing dozens of angry letters to people who are respectfully
requesting that you respect them, you could have blown up a lab or taken like
20 hens from a factory farm. Hell, you could have walked like 5 dogs at the
animal shelter or made like 6 batches of cookies for a vegan bake sale. Don't
you care about animals? Why aren't you out there helping them? Our movement is
very small and I am simply appalled that you aren't out there helping animals.
Sincerely,
Kay
I agree. What a collossal waste of time. But should I throw all the letters in junk mail?? Good idea!! I will BTW Kay are you helping animals or are you more concerned with a genderqueer label.... Hmmm I bet I do more in a day than you do in a year. BTW have you contributed to Nick Coonesy legal defense? Or are you all talk like most AR people?
[Note: This response was not emailed.]
He basically told me that he does more in a day for AR than I do in a year.
And, it's so true. I thought about it, and, you know? I haven't written a single angry letter this year. I get so busy cooking vegan food for the homeless at Food Not Bombs, and baking vegan goodies to sell to raise money for the Vegan Animal Rights Initiative, that I just haven't had the time to sit down and pen a single angry homophobic letter to a vegan activist.
The source of this conversation is here.
Kevin,
I'm am writing to you in response to the intolerant hate mail you've been
sending to genderqueer activists. The fact that you only have two options for
gender does not personally bother me - however, your attitude towards
"queer" activists does. You do the animal rights movement much harm
by refusing to accept that all people can care about animals, regardless of
their gender identity. It is a common tactic for those opposed to animal rights
to accuse those who are of not caring about human rights. You are only proving
them right, and hurting the progress of the movement.
~Freakshownia
I accept everyone. The fact that I would not put every
gender option under the sun and have responded in a hostile manner to hostile e
mails. Truly I dont care at all about gender. Only animals, but I am not going
to accommodate every subculture. That is the job of care2. We concentrate on
animals here. Gender issues are for other sites. AND I have not sent mail any
more hateful than I have received. Truly I dont give a shit about pref, gender,
looks etc, only helping animals. Humans have a voice. Animals do not.You have
obviously gotten 3rd hand info if you think that I have a bad attitude about
genderqueer activists. I have a bad attitude on "activists" who feel
that I should open the narrow spectrum of focus from animals to their gender
issues. Sorry not gonna happen. If that makes me a bad activist. Ill just explain to the animals that I am sorry that I am only concerned for your welfare
and not sensitive enough to queer issues. I was too busy working toward your
liberation.
wake up freakshownia
You've been calling genderqueer activists
"idiots". That sounds like a bad attitude to me.
Creating additional options for gender would only accomplish ONE thing: More
people would feel comfortable joining your site. There's absolutely no reason
why including all genders would hinder your work to help animals.
~Freakshownia
I was calling the person an idiot. I am open to all sorts of
people, and want everyone to be comfortable in their own skin whoever they are
or who ever they were born as. I just refuse to be so politically correct as to
open this up to all sorts of subcultures. I actually know of a site that got
shit cuz thay had male listed before female. I am here to help animals not to
forge a highway for sexual situations. I appreciate your letters but would
appreciate it more if you would stop e mailing me. As far as I am concerned,
those who want to be a part of my site are welcome, those who dont dont have
to.
Please move on to another argument with some other homophobic bigot (as I am
called now)
The sources of these conversations are here and here. The conversations previously were available at the crueltyfree.com website, but the threads have since been deleted. To view screen captures of the thread, visit page 1, page 2, and page 3.
xherbivorex also posts to LiveJournal, under the username we_fought_harder.
[Note: The conversation below represents the interaction between xherbivorex and Kevin Lawrence. Each of their comments is directed towards the other person, and the exchanges are presented in order. Comments from others have been omitted to save space. See the above links if you wish to view the others' comments.]
Attn: Genderqueer Activists and their Supporters
A member suggested to Kevin that the "male" or "female" option be optional to fill out when signing up, be able to be hidden from view on a profile, or that a "no answer" or "genderqueer" option be added. They also suggested that the birth-date field be optional. This was Kevin's shocking, hostile, response:
"Kevin Lawrence" <info@crueltyfree.com>
Wow. Um, yeah maybe this is not the site for you. Personally I could not care less about additional genders. My concern is ANIMALS. If already you have complaints about gender options and astrology I promise you that this site is not for you. I put this site up with absolutely no financial assistance whatsoever and boo hoo I am sorry I could not accommodate queer, lesbian, hermaphrodite, lack of star sign, or whatever. My concern is NOT your sexuality or if you Are a woman trapped in a man's body, but ANIMALS. What a frustrating e mail to respond to. What a dissappointment to the movement. I am sorry for my tone, but give me a break. Go start a gender progressive AR site yourself, spend tons of money and time and get back to me. Ya know I could say so much more but I don't want to sound any more rude than I am already sounding. What a slap in the face to the millions of animals suffering every second of every day that you have wasted my time complaining about a label. Now I'm getting pissed. Ok I will delete your account right now. Good Luck with your gender Revolution. You can call me queer, straight, he, she it whatever but I will fight for the animals regardless, and not be concerned with it.
Kevin
Thats right. Thats my tone. It can get nastier if you like. I already removed the "preferences" for sexuality at the request of gay members. Now I should add categories for more than Male or Female? I truly could not care less if you are Male, Female, Genderqueer, Bionic, or whatever tons of categories people can think of. I am concerned with helping animals with no voice. If you want to create a Gender specific site by all means start one. I think what I may do is remove the M or F choice all together, but don't appreciate the "threat" in the first letter that if I dont have more categories that the member will "quit" the site. Um PLEASE DO!!! Look at you creating drama on a site designed to help animals. Yea PLAEAS ALL MEMBERS WHO DONT CONSIDER THEMSELVES MALE OR FEMALE, AND CAN NOT OVER LOOK THAT IN ORDER TO HELP ANIMALS PLEASE DELETE YOUR ACCOUNT. I am not perfect and cannot please everyone. So I will leave this string up for a while and then encourage you to add fuel to an already divided pathetic excuse for a movement, and then delete your account or I will happily do it for you. Go save an animal and leave your sexuality and ego at the door. You fucking idiot.
KEVIN
Wow I just read your profile. And you have the nerve to thrash me for not adding genderqueer and removing birthdate. You have an awful lot of dislikes. I dont have any but hypocrites who pose as AR and have other agendas... Like you:
DISLIKES
hippies, crust punks, drug use, smoking, drinking, freegans, loud children, people who don't stand for anything, blind patriotism, gender inequality.
Get a fucking clue.
Bring it on you fucking idiot. Id love to waste more time from helping animals thrashing your self righteous bullshit. You an unemployed 24 year old "activist" Fuck you just make me laugh. Thank god I do this for the animals and dont give a shit if you are with me or not.
I'm not unemployed - I haven't changed my profile information since I signed up months ago.
I think its hilarious (and kind of weird/scary) how you are flying off of the handle and resorting to such hostility and namecalling to people who have been nothing but calm and rational towards you. And, you seemed fine with my profile when you were sending me tons of messages and leaving me comments when I first signed up. Who is the hypocrite here? Certainly not me.
I also think its hilarious how you just insulted all activists that are unemployed and twenty four years of age (and younger, i'd guess). Keep alienating people. That will help the animals.
Here Is My Last Post On This: Crueltyfree Is An Animal Rights Site. Concerned With The Total Abolition Of Animal Abuse. I Could Not Care Less What Your Gender Or Sexuality Is. Have Fun Its Your Life. Sex, Gender, I Don't Care. But Respect My Choice Not To Indulge Your Sub Culture And Its Nuances. I Will Not Be Politically Correct Here. Do What You Will In Your Life. Here I Will Only Be Concerned With Animals. If You Want To Leave Because You Think I Am A Bigot Or Homophobic As I Have Been Called In E Mails, I Beg You To Do So. On Crueltyfree Its About The Animals.
