Sean,

re: James G. McCarthy's GATR [Gospel According to Rome]:
> Please find a reply to some of this book at
> www.angelfire.com/ms/seanie
> But if your heart is not open, then don't bother.

2^nd edition (a typographic error corrected in blue below) for my response, remains intact otherwise. [sy: (07-April-2000)]

The Real Presence?
Roman Catholics have a Jesus that takes the following form:
The Church teaches that at the Holy Mass, bread and wine are transubstantiated into the Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity of the Lord Jesus Christ.[1]*  What this means is that the substances of the bread and wine change into Jesus, yet not the outer appearances.  These remain the same.  Therefore, what we have at the Mass after the consecration is Jesus Christ under what appears to be bread and wine. - *[1] CCC #1373ff.
For Roman Catholics, this is their “Real Presence” of Jesus inside them when they have “eaten Jesus”.  This is something Biblical Christians can and have rejected outright for scriptural reasons alone.

Here is why and how:
You first start by trying to answer the question of whether “The Real Presence” is “Literal or Symbolic?”:
On page 133, GATR notes that there is not even the slightest indication that either the bread or the wine changed at the Last Supper.  This, however, is simply not true.  One indication is that it is the fulfillment of the prophecy about eating Jesus flesh and drinking his blood in John 6.  Without the Last Supper being interpreted literally, Jesus would have left us--from a purely scriptural viewpoint--without the opportunity to eat his flesh and drink his blood, yet with a firm command we must do so.

However your opening statement is flawed from the very beginning.
You claim above that “Without the Last Supper being interpreted literally, Jesus would have left us--from a purely scriptural viewpoint--without the opportunity to eat his flesh and drink his blood,“.

But I disagree, the truth is that “Without the Last Supper being interpreted literally [doing it symbolically], Jesus PRECISELY LEFT us--from a purely scriptural viewpoint--EVERY opportunity to eat his flesh and drink his blood,”.

How?  This is supported by John 6, scripture itself.  You refer to John 6, yet you ignore it’s teaching.  Read the whole chapter Sean.

John 6:1-14 describes how “a great multitude followed” Jesus, and how he had fed meat to these people with the loaves and fishes by “the miracle that Jesus did”.  John 6:15-25 again describes wherever he went, people would even “also took shipping” just so they could continue “seeking for Jesus.”  It showed that people were willing to follow this “miracle” food supplier even if it meant following him across the sea.  (It is here where the main theme is introduced, the relationship between followers “coming” to Jesus for “something”, but they did not know what the significance of what this “something” really was until it is revealed in the remaining part of the chapter.)  Jesus then puts these first events in perspective by saying in the next two verses:

John 6:26:
Jesus answered them and said, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Ye seek me, not because ye saw the miracles, but because ye did eat of the loaves, and were filled.
John 6:27:
Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.

Jesus introduces this “meat which endureth unto everlasting life” as the central subject of the main theme.

Here, Jesus pointed out that the loaves, or miracle meat, he provided those that followed him, were merely “meat which perisheth”.  Just as in Exodus 16:11-36, the “bread which came down from heaven:”, another kind of miracle meat which was called “manna”, that was laboured for, also perished as “it bred worms, and stank:” (Ex.16:20).

John 6:28 shows his followers asking, “What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?”.  But in John 6:29 Jesus says that, rather, “This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.”  The followers accept this in John 6:30 by then asking, “What sign shewest thou then, that we may see, and believe thee? what dost thou work?” as they were clearly aware of the scenario in Exodus where the first miracle meat that was laboured for in collection and was perishable, as shown in John 6:31.  They were now looking for insight as to what did Jesus mean by “that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you:”.

In John 6:32, Jesus confirms that this “meat which endureth unto everlasting life” (the main subject) is “Verily, verily, I say unto you, Moses gave you not that bread from heaven;”  That is, Moses gave you NOT THAT “meat which endureth unto everlasting life”.  Jesus continues with the rest of the verse, “but my Father giveth you the true bread from heaven.” and into the following verse of John 6:33 defines what that “true” bread from heaven is, “For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world.”

Who cometh?  He, Jesus.  Who giveth?  He, Jesus.  From where?  Heaven.  Give what? Life.  To whom?  The World.  Do WE work?  No, GOD WORKS.

How?  He cometh and he giveth.  That’s it!  This is why WE do NOT have to WORK it so that “He cometh and giveth”.  How do we know this?  There is a KEY that unlocks the remainder of the chapter.

This bread of God “which cometh down” and was “meat which endureth unto everlasting life”, was to the followers, in John 6:34, something “Lord, evermore give us this bread.” which was that “something” Jesus was to “giveth life unto the world.”  So how does God give us this “life”?  What is the key?  John 6:35 is the KEY which unlocks the meaning of everything he describes in the remainder of the chapter:

John 6:35:
And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.

Here are two actions which Jesus ties to two familiar metaphors of ordinary life.  Bread as symbolic metaphors of life giving sustenance that can satisfy the two wants: hunger and thirst.  How do the wants of hunger and thirst get metaphorically satisfied but to EAT and DRINK?  A follower satisfies the metaphorical hunger by eating, so he “cometh” to Jesus.  And a follower satisfies the metaphorical thirst by drinking,  so he “believeth” in Jesus.  How do we know the wants, their satisfaction, and the means, are metaphorical rather than literal?  It is the qualifier “never” in ‘shall never hunger” and “shall never thirst” that points to a metaphorical meaning.  Never is absolute.  ONCE the hunger or thirst is satisfied, it NEVER needs maintenance.  So, ONCE a follower “cometh” to Jesus and “believeth” in Jesus, that’s it, the follower will NEVER metaphorically hunger or thirst again, ever.  Yes, God’s GIFT of LIFE is THAT good!  It can’t be any better than this, anything less than the work of God is the work of men.

So what does this work of God actually look like that followers must come to believe in, to “believe in Jesus”?  It wasn’t just to walk up to him physically and claim to be a follower as Jesus indicated in John 6:36 “That ye also have seen me, and believe not.”  In John 6:37, Jesus continues on the theme first started in the chapter on the relationship between those that ultimately and truly “follow” him are those that are “All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.”  We come, so we metaphorically eat, and we never hunger.  Enough “opportunity” here for all potential followers!

And Jesus continues in John 6:38-40, emphasizing of those that come to him that he would not lose them and that he should raise them up again at the last day:  “that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.”  We believe, so we metaphorically drink, and we never thirst.  Again, enough “opportunity” here for all potential followers!  Notice also, in John 6:40, “that every one which seeth the Son,”; more on “seeth” below.

We know about the metaphorical “actions”, but what about the metaphorical “object” of those actions?  Eat what and drink what?  That is, come to Jesus to believe “what” about Jesus’ work?  What work?  John 6:41-43 shows how some of the Jews tried to interpret what he said literally, and this was confusing to them.  To which, Jesus repeated the emphasis of “come” for true followers and their final outcome in John 6:44, “No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.”  Jesus in John 6:45 reinforces this by even appealing to “It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God.  Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.”

John 6:46 shows that, “Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.”  Who hath seen the Father?  Not any man save he.  Who is he?  Jesus.  Hath seen or will see the Father?  Hath seen, a tense indicating up till then.  That is, up to this point, Jesus says not any man hath seen the Father.  This does not exclude who will see the Father later on.  The significance of all these in terms of those that “cometh” to Jesus, “believeth” in Jesus, and “seeth” the Father, are magnified and clarified in John 14.  For example, John 14:9c, “he that hath seen me hath seen the Father;”.

Jesus defines what “work” followers are to believe in and its benefits by starting off with John 6:47, “Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.”  Notice that a believer “hath everlasting life” the moment he believeth on Jesus.  What does it mean to “believeth” in Jesus?  His answer describes the “metaphorical object” of his work in which the believer is to metaphorically act on, is believe in Jesus’ work.  Today, we know the work to be Jesus sacrifice on the cross, as will be revealed below.

Jesus details metaphorically, in John 6:48 that, “I am that bread of life.”  What is “that bread of life”?  That bread of life is Jesus, which is “that meat which endureth”, and not the one that “perisheth” like the miracle meat, in John 6:49 where , “Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead.” from Exodus 16.

Jesus makes clear the distinction, in John 6:50 that,  “This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof and not die.” is Jesus himself.  This bread is NOT some miracle meat from heaven provided in either Exodus 15 or the miracle meat of loaves and fishes, provided earlier in John 6 by Jesus himself, which was also a bread that perisheth and does not satisfy this metaphorical hunger.

The identity of this “bread of life”, first mentioned in the KEY verse of John 6:35, is finally given explicitly, but metaphorically, in:

John 6:51:
I am the living bread which came down from heaven:  if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever:  and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.”

From this it is clear that to eat the bread to satisfy the hunger, is to come to Jesus for life.  The bread is his flesh which he gives is himself “in the flesh” as a “living” sacrifice on the cross for our sins as payment thus giving us life.  He did not give us this “bread of life” at the Lord’s Supper which was plain and dead, he gave us this “bread of life”, himself, later on at the cross at Calvary.  He used the Lord’s Supper in a private occasion to re-emphasize that what was yet to come, his sacrifice as yet unrealized to them, and that this meal would act symbolically, using the natural acts in the necessities of life of eating and drinking, with common daily elements of bread and the drinking cup, to remind all believers of what he would do for the world.  These natural everyday acts and elements, being such common in all lives of all people, would serve as constant reminders of our daily needs as fallen creatures, yet given the provision of redemption by the actual, ONETIME, and COMPLETE, act itself.

The Jews could be seen still interpreting Jesus words literally, in John 6:52,  where they still were thinking, “How can this man give us his flesh to eat?”  To which Jesus continued to explain metaphorically how he was to not just give himself that people could come to him for life, but that in order for life to be available to the world there was a price to be paid to offer it, he must DIE.  He was to give his life, to shed his BLOOD in DEATH.  He was metaphorically spelling out his bloody sacrifice on the cross, not the breaking of plain ordinary non-miracle inert ”dead” bread at the Last Supper.  This is why he coupled both the flesh and blood together, he, as his body is offered, he, his flesh must also suffer death, by the shedding of his blood he would die.

Notice how in John 6:53, “Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.” he refers to himself as “Son of man”.  In every instance that this “Son of man” is used throughout the New Testament do we learn to know that it means God_Incarnate, as either while with us physically on earth, physically risen going to heaven, or to physically return to earth from heaven in his second coming.  It is this term that teaches us that whenever he deals with men directly in physical “body-mode” [God_Incarnate] among mankind, that he refers to himself as “Son of man”.  So followers can “eat the flesh of the Son of man” by merely coming to God’s only “body-mode”, Jesus “while-on-earth”, or God_Incarnate “while-on-earth”.  Likewise, followers are to “drink his blood” by merely believing in the sufficiency of God’s sacrifice, on the shedding of His blood offered for all sins in death of God’s only “body-mode”, Jesus “while-on-earth”, or God_Incarnate “while-on-earth”, which hung on the cross at Calvary.  It was recorded in the New Testament that “the bread I will give”, was his physical “body-mode”, his literal self, that he gave to die, and only once did he do this.

The sufficiency of his singular once-and-for-all-time sacrifice, is finalized, in John 6:54, “Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.” in that eternal life for the believer is ALREADY A POSSESSION as signified by the present tense of “hath eternal life”, even BEFORE the believer is DEAD, later, to be raised up on the last day as signified by the future tense of “I will raise him up” as the last act done to a believer that ALREADY HAS ETERNAL LIFE.

Jesus summarizes this right-there-in-the-NOW ultimate “bread”, in John 6:55, “For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood drink indeed.” as signified by the present tense of “is”, after all, such meat and drink is the only sustenance to satisfy followers so they NEVER hunger and NEVER thirst immediately.

Jesus then describes what a believer “right-there-in-the-NOW” has as a result of comes to believe (the moment the believer acts) in him, in John 6:56, “He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.” that the believer dwells in him and Jesus dwells in the believer as signified by the present tense of “-eth” in all the verbs.

Jesus then describes, in John 6:57, “As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me.” the believer’s future, already having eternal life, “shall” live by Jesus in the same way Jesus always lives by the Father from that very moment onward for the rest of the believer’s life.

Just to make sure there is no misunderstanding Jesus reiterates the INSUFFICIENCY of the literal everyday sense of “bread” and “eating”, in John 6:58, “This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.” so that it be clear that he NEVER means for any form of the literal act of eating some physical “miracle bread” to mean “eating his flesh”.  The tie between physical eating and physical death was repeated and reinforced here.

As for the Last Supper, Jesus showed them how the literal act of eating physical bread and drinking the cup of wine would allow believers to use common everyday items of daily sustenance to act as comforting symbolic reminders of that great loving one-for-all-time eternal life giving sacrifice Jesus provided for the world as a rememberance memorial.  During that very occasion, he was still pointing to that yet-to-come event in the very next day.  Notice that not once did anyone touch Jesus’ “body-mode” in the act of literal eating or drinking through the entire New Testament.  The tie between physical eating of physical bread was given only the significance of a remembrance of his once-for-all-time act in the Last Supper.

So, finally, the tie between the metaphorical eating of the metaphorical bread [Jesus’ ultimate sacrifice just about to happen] was to mean literally of coming to believe in Jesus’ sacrifice for the follower’s sins.  And that literal eating bread and drinking the cup of wine, taken from the Last Supper for believers as a remembrance, was a symbolic reminder of that sacrifice on the cross of Calvary.

Just as the Jews had in the Old Testament practice of literally eating the literal sacrificial lamb, a symbol of the “Lamb of God” [Jesus’ ultimate sacrifice yet to come] was to mean literally of coming to believe in God’s demand for sacrifice of life for the Jew’s sins.  That this sacrifice was a repeated requirement showed that the sacrifice was insufficient in itself but that it mainly was a preview of the ultimate, fully sufficient, sacrifice yet to be made, only once for the whole of humanity when Jesus came.  So even the Jews had a symbolic preview of that sacrifice given on the cross of Calvary.

We know what happens to the miracle bread “Jesus” of the Roman Catholic Mass:

That it is made with the hands of sinners.  That it does not endureth.  And it would perisheth as any food would perisheth.  And it is has no exceptional physical virtues, as it is literally eaten just as the Jews “did eat manna, and are dead” that ordinary bread or food doesn’t already have.  That it plainly is not Jesus’ “body-mode” [God_Incarnate] at any given time, because we know where the “Son of man” is today, absent in “body-mode” here on earth, but present “body-mode” in heaven.  That the Roman Catholic’s limited, non-enduring, perishable, temporary life sustaining, virtues of this pretentious “Transubstantiated” Jesus can hardly do its followers any good as a digestible temporary “cast out in the draught “Real Presence”.  By comparison, a true biblical Christian believer, has the Lord Jesus Christ dwelling in him and him in the Lord from the moment he has “come to believe” in Jesus, till the day he is taken to heaven.

If your heart is not open to the scriptural Jesus, then don’t bother to “come and believe” his words in John Chapter 6.  You can choose to argue the meaning of his words when you face him at the Great White Throne if Jesus quotes himself to you from John Chapter 6.  If you dare, how well will you fare?  Will you counter with a quote from your cherished “Church Fathers” instead, or from the “Catechism”, or the teachings of the “Magisterium”?  Repent.

I can point to my enduring, non-perishable, fully sufficient sacrificed on the cross once, risen from the dead, ascended to heaven, Jesus sitting on the right hand of God in heaven, when asked who saved me.  You can point to your perishable man-made, cast-into-the-draughtable, Jesus of the Mass, and Jesus will condemn you to the lake of fire.  Everything left physical today is corruptible, there are no exceptions.

Wake up, Sean, throw out the MASS, and the OPPORTUNITY REMAINS SCRIPTURALLY OPEN for you to metaphorically eat and drink, that is “come and believe in”, Jesus,  till you are warm, dead, and rotting, don’t put it off.

Regards,

Steve Yue (Original edition in black: 10-Jan-2000)