ZJB News Thursday September 27th 2001

MP, Claude Hogan, discussing current issues on Radio ZJB – Friday, September 28, 2001 (Basil Chambers’ BC: Definitely pappy show Friday morning with a difference and I have a guest with me this morning (long time no see). I have the one and only Mr. Claude Hogan, MP, Claude Hogan. Good morning, sir. CH: Good morning, Basil. BC: Welcome back home. CH: Thank you very much. It’s so great to be home. BC: Yeah. I had to pull you in here because I’m very excited when it comes to traveling and knowing what happened in America the other day I am a little bit scared now. But I know that you are coming back from Australia. Tell us a little bit about Australia. What’s happening there? CH: Yes. Before I do that let me just say, congratulations to you as usual on this rather powerful program that is continuing to empower the people as I see you’re having more and more guests. And, watching you in action there I recall very fondly summer 2001 this year. I was in London and you were a guest DJ at this show in Alwyn Street. You remember that, right? BC: I do. CH: Is it the church there, church hall? BC: I do remember. CH: And, if I recall, I think they said that was a record number of people who attended there. And we had just about enough room to dance. I mean everybody was close to somebody. BC: It was tight. It was tight. It was tight. I’m telling you, they said that they’ve never seen so much people inside that place. And you know something? CH: I wasn’t there in there, you know. I was just passing. BC: Just think about it, you know. I actually took all my music from Montserrat. So can you imagine me …? CH: Yeah. You played some Saltfish and so. BC You heard that? Remember? CH: I heard that. Yes, yes. BC: So can you imagine me taking my CD case from Montserrat to England, which is a far ways off, you know? But that’s how I did it. CH: Montserrat should know the talent that they have at every level in Montserrat: music, entertainment. You know. You talk about Basil. You talk about Arrow. You talk about education and culture and history, Howard Fergus. And you talk about sports: cricket. You talk about Basil Morgan, Fitzroy Buffonge. You talk about agriculture you talk about Justin Hero. The man himself is now Mr. Agriculture. I heard him the other night and this morning on the radio. And I must use this opportunity to say congratulations to the Agriculture Department, in general. I think we’re now realizing that food security and agricultural output (and let me take the chance to say hello to Mountain Man because he is also Mr. Agriculture). …. BC: And he’ll be on your case. You know that. CH: Yes. Yes. Yes. Fred, my man from Long Ground. And, we definitely have to big up the Agriculture Department because I know and based on your introduction and this was going to be my introduction to answering your question. But let me also compliment the Emerald Community Singers and the Alliouagana Singers because we have people from all breadth and depth of life. And I’m up and coming in politics, so you have to watch me. BC: But you’re punching. CH: Right, right. So, going into this about agriculture and the question you asked me, I was using that to build up to the fact that the reason why I see this agricultural expansion and support for the farmers as being so important: two reasons. One, agriculture is the first, principal and primary means of people to convert their energies into wealth. I mean, you go and till the soil, you plant some crops to get them exported; you earn some foreign exchange. It’s the first and principal means, before tourism, before everything else, agriculture is important. And then, on the basis of your question about being in Australia and there being the terrorist attack and so on, it suddenly occurred to me as I was there, you know, there was a certain kind of calm that came over the whole place when that thing happened the Tuesday night. I will tell you about that later. And it suddenly occurred to me that if were going to have any confrontation in the Middle East or wherever and this became a full blown war of any sort, and given the threat of terrorism and that shipping lanes are being changed; airplanes are canceling nine percent of their flights; (That’s about 190 flights British Airways has cancelled to the United States) and of course, British Airways is going to probably review their flights to the Caribbean; American Airlines. Security is tight and everybody is going to be moving a little more secretive. The change of shipping lanes is likely to affect, likely, let me say, likely to affect supply of food on a timely basis. And if there’s a full-blown war, we’ll have to have our food stocks up to standard in Montserrat. And we’re in a very vulnerable position because we don’t have proper transport, communications systems. The proper seaport is not there. We don’t even have a proper airport and that’s another question altogether. So, food security is very important. And I hope that the Emergency Department is building the food warehouse because we might be thinking it’s only for volcano or for hurricane, but then you have this thing about manmade disaster. And war could disrupt things so badly that we might have to resort to using our emergency warehouse food but the people shouldn’t rely on that. What we have to rely on for the future security of Montserrat now, as I see it, is planting our own crops, doing our own agriculture, backyard gardening and whatever other land you can find to make this country prosperous again and provide for our sustainability into the future. And, of course, the second important thing would be water security. I mean, somebody told me sometime ago the next war was going to be fought over water. I didn’t realize it was going to be over money or whatever else. But water security is important and I hope we are going to move forward with the British help with the Water III project, which would provide proper water supply and backup tanks and so on because we are going to have a water problem. And if we have an import problem with diesel and so on and we don’t have water tanks at high elevation to gravity-feed the general public, we’re going to have serious problems. I don’t have a proper water supply where I live. I don’t even have electricity. I’m like living in the primitive age. And I’m telling you, if William H. Bramble was alive today, he wouldn’t tell me I’m too far from the road to get electricity, because if that policy and principle was allowed to prevail then there would not have been any water or electricity in Long Ground when I was growing up, but there was. And we’re in the modern age so we have to … we can’t go back to be thinking … We’re not going to get any prizes now for thinking so revolutionary, because that is no longer revolutionary thinking that people have to have the basics to live. BC: I was in a conversation just the other day and some guys were speaking about they want to go -- maybe let’s say they want to go into Thatch Valley and maybe buy a piece of land, or Old Quaw but then there’s no supplies over there. You understand? Now, would you encourage somebody, Okay, go ahead, buy the land, build your house and wait? Or do you think that government should get in there first and put in the … CH: Yes… BC: … and put in the supplies? CH: Not necessarily just government because MONLEC is principally owned by the government. It is a government company but MONLEC is owned by the people who work in MONLEC. I mean the first stakeholders of MONLEC would be the management and the people who actually do the work. And one of my philosophies has been that the people who work in the various companies should have a say in what is going on in their company. And I believe if they were to get involved in some of the decisions they would see expansion of electricity, electrical supply and so on as an investment. You can’t ask me to make an investment in a power plant because I am not into the power plant business. They are the ones into the power plant business and they should realize that they would want their company to do this kind of investment. And, they would want to make the sacrifice or whatever and put the money in if they have it. Or if they can find it, if they can borrow it, or whatever because it is going to be returned because, as you say, people are going to follow, once you have the infrastructure in place. And that’s a lot of agricultural land over there. So we need to think bigger. We can’t be just squeezed up in one place and trying to secure our little small salary. We need to thing big about expanding Montserrat beyond the mere confines of where the last pole was for the last 10 years. You know? But people are not willing to take chances, risk in the market and be enterprising and we have a little money but I don’t know if they don’t have enough confidence that we’re going to remain. You think we’re going to run away? BC: I don’t think so. CH: I’m not running away. So, let’s do business. Let’s build a country. We’re into like a containment phase here and there’s this struggle with the government, you know, about how far we should go and you know, and take it easy, as if … Take it easy for what? People are living. People want to get out there as you say and build and expand and do things and this is the essence of what government is doing. Government is doing what the people are doing. And all we have to do is to enable, catalyze, provide the right incentives for people to do things and then we can say the economy is working. The economy can’t work from inside an office. It works because of men out there doing work and not only doing work to build public buildings because that is just like the base of the economy to provide certain public services. Men have to be out there developing their own lives, doing things that send their children to school, building their own house, putting in their own driveway, putting in a little car. You know what I’m saying? Nice up their self. And this is how you talk about an economy moving. BC: I’ve heard Dr. Lewis’ version. I’ve heard MP, Chedmond Browne’s version. In two minutes, tell me what do you think of this whole airport fiasco, if you want to call it that? What’s your own feeling on this? CH: Oh boy, I mean, that’s the question of the century isn’t it? BC: That’s the question that everybody is asking. CH: And I haven’t answered your Australia question yet. BC: No, no. That’s all right. You can keep out the Australian one, right, but... CH: Yes. I was trying to slip around that, ain’t it? BC: Yeah. I know you are trying to do that. But in two minutes, give me your own feeling on this whole airport issue. CH: Okay, Basil, you’re a good journalist. They trained you at BBC, ain’t it? Let’s take a break and come back, let me think about it. BC: Okay, good. I’m speaking to MP, Claude Hogan, here. I have him on the spot here, ladies and gentlemen. I’m actually enjoying this. It’s pappy show Friday but we’re breaking off from the pappy showness for just a bit to speak to Claude. I’m going to give him four minutes and ten seconds to get his thoughts together. (Music break; break in tape?) CH: It’s just as if it were any other project, for example, the people in St. John’s clearly envisaged that Geralds would be developed into something like a Sturge Park around which they would probably have food stalls, bars and so on and we will probably celebrate our Christmas festival in that vicinity and the senior citizens and others around the immediate area would have direct access to those facilities and be able to make a little extra money mainly around Christmas time and perhaps when we stage major cricket matches at Geralds. That would definitely have provided the sort of economic injection of resources that could have helped to develop that area. And I’m sure people would have people would have built nicer houses, maybe established better places for people to come and stay over in addition to Tropical Mansions and improve their lot, generally, in that area. And, that I feel is still a long held position of the people of the area that they would prefer something like a football or a cricket facility. Nonetheless, the airport facilities, from a purely economic perspective is just another one of those things except that it comes with the possibility of some noise, which is less (I understand the decibel noise level is less) than the current use of the helicopter; it’s cheaper than using the helicopter (about 25, about 75% cheaper); and it (according to a lot of people) will present certain risks for landing and takeoff there because of turbulence and other things which people are fearful about. In fact, however, I mean all airports have certain risks and that’s why you have air traffic controllers and in the end, the pilot on board has the final say but accidents do happen. And, of course, Geralds is about 500 feet above sea level, which increases the problem of wind factors but I think the government has said that (in fact I was in London when that decision was arrived at with the Chief Minister) that no airport will commence at Geralds until the adequate studies were completed. And even after, once the adequate studies are completed and there’s a green light, only then that there would be any possibility of an airport being built there. The serious problem I have is if we were not going to have an economic project such as an airport or anything else for the next two or three years what would happen? What would happen to the people who work in the fire service at the current heliport and if they had no airport for five years? What would happen to the traffic controllers? I mean they would have to work and take care of their family. What would happen to the police immigration service? What would happen to the cleaners, the maid service folks, the gardeners, the Montserrat Aviation Service, the security workers? What would happen for the taxi drivers? So, what has happened is that the failure in making a decision on this airport thing three years ago (right?) has created a dilemma. It could cause a lot of problems for a lot of people. The solution of this temporary airport—we are focusing on the end product as alleviating the means of transporting to Montserrat. And really the problem for government is rather bigger than the fact of having an end product, which is important in and of itself for the continuation of air services. The problem includes one of fiscal prudence and one of maintaining people in employment. And you could make a decision based on the end but then you have to think about what happens in between and the means of getting to that end. And if the majority of the people do not want the airport then I think we have a duty as the government to tell them what the real implications of not building an airport are in the interim. And then you would have to measure the cost of the decision the people will make because in the end, the airport, the decision to build the airport will be, will come down to the people because basically the government has no choice. We might as well call this the David Brandt-DFID airport because it’s already a foregone conclusion in that respect because that was done under that administration anyway. So, if we just agree, well, the only thing that is left is to name the airport and we’d probably not want to name it after any body great in Montserrat but just name it after who contrived it. And if you think about the implications of not moving forward, seriously you’ll find that in about a couple years time, you know, well, maybe less than a couple years’ time, people will be making a greater fuss about whether the government should be in power at all because of the hardship they would have brought upon the country. And it’s kind of schizophrenic because some of the people who you think would want an airport are saying they don’t want an airport. People who you think should not want it are saying they want it. So really, it’s not such a tough decision for the government because the issue is split both ways. So if the government were to side with the people who said we shouldn’t have an airport, which would be an imprudent choice, they would still have to face the people who want the airport. If they side with the people who want the airport, who I think are in the majority, it’s just that they don’t have the resources to call in on the telephone and rant and go on and make their points, they would have on their backs, the vocal minority (which is what is the situation right now), I mean. And that being the case, I would say that the decision for government is not so difficult. It’s generated a lot of contention probably because we need to get down to the finer points of the implications of what a non-decision has brought us in to after three years. BC: But Claude the decision has been made already, right? The airport will, will go at Geralds? CH: If the studies suggest that is safe in terms of the plane being able to land not, maybe not 24 hours a day a plane will be able to land and it will be a Twin Otter aircraft. I’ve read the full documentation myself and the scenario is developed around a Twin Otter landing, possibly with some modifications to the Twin Otter so that it might have maybe 16 seats as opposed to 20 so you can carry more baggage or something to that effect but it is modeled on there being a Twin Otter aircraft in operation. BC: I think that we’ve heard already from two pilots, two from Montserrat: Captain Meade, who is one of the finest captains around and Carl Burke and they have said straight out that Geralds is not safe. I mean, what other studies do we need when we have two…? CH: That is not a study. That is not how aeronautics systems are developed. That is an impassioned plea from pilots who understand the difficulties but you have to remember in an airport those difficulties arise occasionally, maybe more than occasionally in the case of Geralds. And according to the report I read, they say that 80% of the time the wind factors, the factors, the factors appear to be sufficiently bearable for safe landing and takeoff but the studies will confirm for sure and these should be completed by about next June or July. Whether for sure there is enough of a threshold or time between throughout a working day for enough number of planes to land because these guys have done their homework. They’ve done the economics. They have done projections backwards and forwards in terms of movement of people on Montserrat and they know, on average, how many people land in a given day; on average, how many flights that would entail and the number of flights they are talking about is not nearly the number of flights that we need, I mean it’s a lot of flights that can come in in any one day especially if we move to the position where we can develop and operate, possibly in collaboration with other people in the airline business, our own small airline service. And if we are able to perhaps get a link in with say an international airline like Virgin and we have people with tour packages destined for Montserrat and we can offer them direct transfer to the Montserrat airline to Montserrat, I mean we are looking at huge possibilities as miniscule as they might sound. The other thing that I wanted to talk about in respect of the airport and this is taking more than two minutes, is that when you are talking about an economy these days you are talking about the potential of the people in the country to produce the type of, or the amount of money that could run their own business. Right? And as far as the economists are concerned, at the moment, our economy (at the moment) is not large enough or near, or operating nearly well enough to be able to sustain much more debt burden than the current size of the airport we have. It’s not like we have recourse to other funds other than what is being provided to us, against our own economic potential, at the moment, and given, of course, that I must say to you (and we should be very honest and open to the people of Montserrat) in Britain there is reluctance in some circles to over-invest (and Britain don’t give grants), they give you monies against your possible economic performance, certain possible economic performance criteria. And our indicators are not performing, as they would say, in economic terms. And they don’t give you grants because the money basically has to be accounted for and practically repaid in terms of how they send their people out here and the conditions of their employment and so on. So, it’s a system they are trying to create for Montserrat, which they feel is sustainable as it is and in some circles there, I must tell you that people are very reluctant at the moment to proceed with what they would term over-investing or over-granting Montserrat certain monies, which they feel that we will not be able to sustain nor absorb and it would redound to a loss. And part of this is informed by the activities of the volcano I will admit to you that. I will also argue that they are not taking into consideration that we need certain other infrastructure, which the Chief Minister has highlighted over and over again, which would be necessary for us to be sustainable like a seaport and really, a first-class airport. But they are saying if we want a first-class airport, we’ll have to work from here to a position where we can afford to contribute more than we can now to building it our self. And you can’t let any more time pass unless you get you something that can earn you some kind of money and the only thing, right now, we are not going to get that – if we even got that playing facility at Geralds, it’s not going to generate the kind of income for the public purse that I am talking about. It would have generated money for the immediate people of St. Johns. But this country needs now not just to take care of the immediate environs of St. Johns, we need to take care of the whole country and all of the people and all of the things we need for the future. And we have a fight with the British because we need to fight them on the question that they should give us something, you know. As a friend of mind asked me yesterday, when you were growing up did your parents give you, you know, the adequate preparation for life? And I said yes; because they gave you a good education and they ensured that you would be able to live, you know, take care of yourself. What Britain has not done is that they have not given us the resources nor the infrastructure that we need as a children which they are trying to get rid of. And we should be honest. Britain is really trying to push us, push off all the dependencies on their own in a process called devolution. And there are some politicians who will come and tell you that it’s because they are fighting and because they can’t do this because the governor has more power than them and so on; have nothing to do with that. Devolution is an orchestrated program to keep the British empire loosely linked but at the same time not having financial responsibility for the people. So you are going to find in Montserrat, you’re going to have all of us are going to end up on social security, we are going to have to provide for our own future security, the welfare system is going to decline because people are going to have to contribute. We are going to have to contribute to our own health and we’re going to have to manage our own affairs. But yet we are going to be linked to the British government in an intimate kind of way, which will be defined by our constitution, which is why it is going to be reviewed because now they don’t want to hold on to Montserrat for the sake of holding on. They want to hold on to Montserrat in a way that they are saying that they are providing a humanitarian assistance to the island but that the people really are their own people and they are on their own is a kind of semi-independence. They call it neo-colonization. And all the relationship they’ll want to have with us is purely at an economic level and some people say, maybe if we find diamonds in the volcano then they might have a greater interest. But really devolution is going to be hitting us hard and it’s going to provide more power for politicians but not necessarily more freedom for the people. And the freedom for the people will have to come through the constitution and I’m probably pre-empting another lecture I’ll have to present sometime in the future. But the world is changing fast and very fast for Montserratians and there are people who realize that there are things that are going to come up that a lot of ordinary people are not going to be able to manage and they are going to position themselves, because they realize they’ll be able to make money and they can come off as being like the good Samaritan. But really a lot of people who are jockeying around this devolution theory and so on are just doing it to feather their own nest and we need to tell the people what is going on; we need to empower the people; we need to push more of the money that is coming in from Britain out into the general public domain. Let people do things; let them create real small businesses that provide the services that government would provide so money will go directly in my pocket. I don’t have to queue up for no welfare. There are a lot of things that government do that government wouldn’t have to do and other people could do it like, for example, the food service at the hospital, a private contractor could do that and government would pay them; operating the port services. You know, in most countries, they privatize these things. People come together as a little unit and they make their own money; they buy their own pension fund and they are secure in their own right. If we continue to project to people that the government is going to do everything and everything is under our control, that will be very wrong because that’s not how it’s going to be. BC: MP, Claude Hogan. I know that you have another appointment. I don’t know if you want to take a call here. Let me see what’s happening. Hi, good morning. Caller: Good morning. Tell Mr. Hogan me say when he a talk, he talk up so everybody could hear. One the time when he call out who me mek the decision about the airport, he lower e voice, so ley he talk and let the people them hear. Okay? Just that me have to say for right now. BC: Somebody said that they couldn’t hear but I know you’re punching. I know you’re getting out there loud and clear. I want to speak, you know, get on from the airport issue. A lot of people have been talking about it but… Let’s take this other caller. Good morning. You need to turn your radio down please CH: It’s down; it’s down. Claude, good morning. How are you? Hi, I’d like to ask you something. I got the impression from you that there is an opinion of sorts that the people, some people don’t want an airport and some people do want an airport. In my opinion, the general consensus leans more to: an airport, yes but we want an airport that is safe and we want one that contributes to our economy significantly. Further, you mentioned the vocal minority. What do they say exactly? You never mentioned and my impression is appears to support the economic growth from the vocal minority. Also you mentioned about aeronautical issues in Geralds and in essence, what the fact remains is, is that aeronautical issues are top of the safety factor in Geralds and it remains a problem. What you have stated is a statement based on probability and feasibility appears beknownst uncertainty. You gave the impression of landing windows within a 24-hour period from a socio- and economic standpoint. That would be the equivalent of financial suicide in regards to the obligations of operating an airport. And my question is, when it comes to additional financial investments what about the options that have established themselves in their safety factor, their ability to generate funds significantly? You know, mentions have been made stating that the ferry service will be cancelled in the future due to excessive cost. Why doesn’t the government consider purchasing the ferry for Montserrat and add routes to St. Kitts, Nevis, Guadeloupe and Antigua for starters. It will boost the economy and it will generate that income necessary to cushion the period of time that the government needs to safely conduct a survey for all the economical options available on the safe side of Montserrat keeping in mind the safety factor, the plane crash; what about an area, what if a plane crashes; it will happen; it’s been known to happen; you have to factor it in. And these things can be done in a timely fashion. We can make a wise and sure investment with the limited funds that we do have available and walk away with a clear conscience and know that the economy of Montserrat will still stand firm, which is our ultimate objective. CH: Well thank you for your call. I feel like I’ve been… I’ve walked into a trap on this airport thing. But, you sound very educated and informed on these aspects. However, I’d like to just respond to three of your points. Though your input is quite potent, it suffers from certain deficiencies. One is, you mention the socio-economic context in which I postured that the airport can proceed and you alluded to that amounting to financial suicide. And I did say that the people who have done the study have done all of the economic (and I think maybe you should borrow the report from me) the economic forecast in respect of movement of passengers and the investment that is required, etc. so that the financing of it as a successful thing has been taken into due consideration. And I did discuss, which is the second point, which I wanted to say was a deficiency in your argument is the context in which you are moving from. You are discussing your proposals from a context of government having an immeasurable amount of resources available to it. And I’m afraid you’re not in a position to understand the financial crisis that this country is in because it is not that we have money available on a bank somewhere. What is happening is a lot of tinkering with financial output possibilities based on population and functions and sectors performing in the society and initially I did congratulate the Agriculture Department, for example, as one area in which we can improve functionality, some kind of returns on the output of the people. But really we do not have the kind of resources you are talking about to buy ferries and so on and so forth. These are subject to negotiations against economic indicators, which are always moving because Montserrat is an open economy and all of the indicators are always moving. And then you have to find like a balance point and from that balance point you work towards your sustainable investment possibilities. So we do not have… You’re working from the possibility as if the government of Montserrat have these resources. The only how we get these resources is if the people work for it or if we can someway break into the British treasury through some kind of major lobbying effort on the part of the people. And the way things are going, as I said, the airport being built or not being built will have to come down to a people decision. The government is a legal entity and is required to perform within certain legal constraints. After all we have a constitution within which is embodied the rules and regulations, which govern this society and under which we are required to make certain decisions. BC: Thank you. Good morning, caller. Caller: Yes sir, good morning. I just want to just caution my very good buddy there as regard some of his statements. I don’t want to dwell on the airport issue because of, I mean, you would know and you know why I wouldn’t want to speak to the airport issue in this forum but, just to say that when you make statements like saying the minority, the vocal minority, one must remember that the only scientific assessment which has been done has defined where the wishes of the people of Montserrat are going. So just be mindful about making statements along those lines. But, overall, I mean, Claude, you have to be careful. When I listen to you now, it sounds like gloom and doom, very, very much that way. And you know and I know that Montserrat is a country with significant potential. I mean, you guys need to highlight this and let the people of Montserrat understand that in spite of all the difficulties and adversities which we are facing right now, we have a very, very, very… I mean, I’ve listened to several people who have come here and said, look, you people of Montserrat have a gold mine and the British know that. And I think that we as a people need to say that a little bit more so that we understand that we have a goldmine and learn how to utilize the resources that we have to exact all the potential possibilities that exist, in the sense of, I mean we have a volcano. It is volcano, active like how it is, it is a very, very important tourist attraction but we must put the mechanisms in place to utilize the particular resources that we have: the people that we have; the friendly nature; the culture of Montserrat. All these things are positive things for Montserrat. The type of environment which we have here, it’s clean. I mean, the type of housing; the low crime rate, these are things that we must speak about and let people understand that, heah, we have a very good thing here. Look at all these people who have gone to the UK and seen the type of living and they’ve come back. I mean, there are others who have difficulties in coming back because of jobs and whatever other reasons. But we need to highlight the benefits of Montserrat. Come on man; stop spreading this gloom and doom kind of scenario. We have a lot of potential and we can build on this. All we need to do is to strategize and to develop as they always say the partnership between the UK government and our government and to go and justify the things that we need. I think part of our problem, we have not, over the last few years, we have not been justifying why we want particular things. I am sick and tired of being around in meetings and we going with just frivolous, sentimental issues to the British. We need to justify why we need what we need and make proper strategic moves towards getting what we need, because I myself have been in situations where the British have said up front, no they would not allow certain things but once given prudent justification, they have changed. They have turned around on their decision and given us what we need. So, I mean, a lot of times, I’m too tired of hearing people spreading this gloom and doom and saying that it is because of the British and the constraints and all that. That is garbage. Let’s get up, do what we have to do and get this country moving. Come on. CH: Okay, Norman. Okay, okay. BC: Thank you very much caller. CH: But Norman let me just answer you because I think you’re right that you sense that I’m talking of gloom and doom in my… You sense some doom and gloom. It is not general gloom and doom about the potential for Montserrat. And if you listened to me carefully from the outset I said we have our potential to produce through our people engaging in agriculture, through our people engaging in attracting tourists. I did say that we have to take this country in our own hands. We have to find alternatives, which is what you mentioned. But within the context of our relationship with the British and the economic data and economic indicators that they use to make their assessments on how you get aid, we are talking gloom and doom. So you are mean to go and tell me I’m talking gloom and doom. I’m not talking gloom and doom that the whole country has no potential. They know it has a lot of potential; the British know that. We know that but as far as they are concerned, it is because they see all of this other potential that we have why they are narrowing their economic indicators to deal with their situation and how much money they are willing to give us. And we are not deficient in making the case but I see our continued relationship with the British government in respect of aid and grant and so on as a doom and gloom scenario if you’re going to base the future of Montserrat around it. So you are right; we have to move away from too much dependence on British aid and free up the people of Montserrat. Right? You just started me, because the system of government in Montserrat is not as great as you think and there’s nobody that we can rely on to give us money to maintain a system which is not equitable at all. In fact, let me tell you about health insurance, for example. How many people in Montserrat get their health insurance paid? We don’t take care of the majority of the people in Montserrat. It’s a minority of the people in Montserrat get taken care of by the system and we’re slowly now building a proper welfare system where we are trying to capture all of the people in everything that is supposed to be a public good. So, when we hear we get our act together and there’s good governance in this country and we are willing to let one crab get out of the barrel so we can all climb out, we can talk about all of the other gloom and doom things with the British as a separate matter. I think we should fix our matters as internal matters about Montserrat, generally and its course of development. And I did touch on the point about some of our companies getting their workers involved and making prudent decisions in the interest of more Montserratians so that all of us could get into the action because it’s what we produce as a people is going to count for us, not what the British give us in grant-in-aid because they give you in one hand and they take it back in another. So I’m not going to stress myself and take up all of my time trying to negotiate with people who already have their own assessment of the potential that we have but think that we might be reluctant to pursue these things at the moment because we prefer to take their money and then later on we’re laughing to the bank or something. So let us take the time to focus on our own potential. Let the Tourism Department operate; let the Agricultural Division operate; let the people who work in the various companies in Montserrat be efficient and let us be customer-service oriented. Let us give the people of Montserrat a zest for life. BC: Yes. We’re talking MP, Claude Hogan. Good morning, caller. Caller: Good morning. Claude, I want to add my voice to the cry of the people. Now, the British have to listen to our cry. It doesn’t seem like our government is crying anymore. Montserratians are a futuristic people and a strong people and we have shown the British, time and time again, that we can do far exceeding what they expect. And we know what is good for us. Now, I want them to listen to us. They are forcing us into a time frame under the guise that if we don’t take the airport, money will stop for the ferry and the helicopter and other things and we won’t have any thing. That is not true. They are fooling us. They need to listen to us. Look at Davy Hill: timeframe. They built some houses out there fast and quick. We had contractors on island that could have built them better; they didn’t listen to us. The government headquarters. They put down that thing there; we were asking for better, they didn’t give us. It’s a shame. They build a tank upon the hill. It’s a shame. Listen to us. We know what we want. …give us a little at a time and stop telling us we can’t have it. We the people know we want it. Listen to us. Thank you. BC: Thank you caller. CH: You’re very impassioned in your love for Montserrat. Let me tell you, I clearly would want to declare some kind of détente against the British government but you see, you’re right. They play this time frame thing with you and they play it down to a time frame where they realize that if you opt out you’re going to have all of the people wanting to kill you anyway. So they play this time frame down on you to the point where you have to say, Okay, please go ahead; anything is better than nothing right now because if I don’t do it and my back is against the wall and the people going to run over me. And this is where sometimes I wonder why we don’t just… We need to speak more to the people, just come out openly and tell them the pressures that is going on inside there and where we are forced to go and we don’t want to go, and the legal constraints that they are able to weave around us and the administrative systems that they have modified over the last five years. In another forum I’m going to tell you about how Montserrat is systematically being changed. BC: But Claude, why is it that governments, and I’ve seen this for years, they are always afraid to tell the people, to tell the massive exactly what is happening? What happens is that at the end of the day, it’s you guys look bad, if you understand what I’m saying. CH: I’m going to answer that two years from now. BC: Good morning, caller. Caller: Yes. I want to ask Mr. Hogan how does he balance what he is saying now to the statement where the Chief Minister said that he was not complaining? (Tape cuts off) … of Tortola was saying that we were not getting enough aid; that’s one point. The second point I want to speak about is the question of the airport at Geralds. It is furthest from the truth that I made the decision to do the specific airport that they are talking about now. The issue of the airport came up in my administration and I wrote to the Chamber of Commerce. And the Chamber of Commerce said listen, Geralds is not our choice but if you had to take an airport at Geralds, it must be at least 600 meters; it must take a 19-seater with full payload at about 98% of the time; and it must be safe. We sent those terms of reference to the Italians through the tender board and that was the basis upon which we said that the question of Geralds could have gone on. The Italians came back now and say it is 500 meters and this government has accepted it. And I say that because the Minister himself, the Chief Minister said, we made the decision. The Minister, Mr. Lewis, on your program (sorry, it was Mr. Sergeant’s program) said it was a decision made in England. Somebody asked them was it the David Brandt government and Lewis who is the Minister and who is intimately familiar with the terms and the discussion and who spearheaded the discussion is saying that it was made by Britain and they accepted it. There was no time at all that we ever accepted any airport for 500 meters and, in fact, this government went to Geralds and told the people of Geralds, we will not accept an airport at Geralds. CH: Caller, please stay on the line. May I ask you ask you a question? This is Claude Hogan, here. You will recall that we spent considerable time together while in London when you presented… Caller: I want you to answer my question. CH: Yes. I’ll answer your question. I’m just going to ask you when you presented your case for Montserrat initially during the volcanic crisis and so on, do you recall having a meeting with Tony Blair on the airport issue? Caller: Yes. Tony Blair promised me an airport. CH: And you committed to having it at Geralds? Caller: No. There was no commission on the records. There is no record about that. The record is that I told him, listen how are you going to tell me that you’re not giving me an airport? When there were all the reporters outside, he asked me what do you want Mr. Brandt? I said, an airport and he said to me, I can’t give you an airport because Claire Short and them were saying no airport. And I told him, when I go outside and I meet those reporters and they ask me what happened and I tell them the plight of the people of Montserrat; that they can’t get out if they are sick; and the economy, etc.; and I tell them that I asked you for that and you tell me no. And he said, Mr. Brandt, you are a good lawyer. I will give you an airport. There was never any question about any Geralds. Never any question and the records will show that is the case, so don’t lie. CH: One question. You wouldn’t say that your conduct and collusion with the process towards arriving at Geralds was… Caller: There was no conduct or collusion. You all have the authority to sign the final document and the matter was put to you all. My proposition was what the Chamber of Commerce said and you all accepted something less that could only bring in a 9-seater. And the Minister, the Chief Minister himself if you take out his speech (and I will ask Radio Montserrat to play it again) we have decided. So how you are saying you have decided and saying it is David Brandt? And when the question specifically came up the other night, twice, Mr. Lewis said no, it is not him; the decision was made in England. Somebody said, you mean the cabinet in England? He said, at the highest level, twice. So don’t try to fool the people. I want you to answer the question. CH: We are not trying to fool the people. The decision meaning in London is that they would have had to say yes to spending the money but you… Caller: No, no, no. The decision is to have the airport at Geralds. If that were not the case then you would not have had some further study. That is not the case? You all decided it and published the document. I challenge you. CH: I think you’ve made your case. Caller: As a matter of fact, you don’t know anything about it. It is Dr. Lewis, the brilliant Dr. Lewis, who knows intimately the information so don’t try and give the people misinformation. They will rely on what Dr. Lewis says. And I want you to answer the question. Didn’t you tell the people of Geralds you are not having it there? Well if you know the decision was made already and it was irrevocable why did you tell the people so? Is it a deception? And secondly, why are you accepting 500 meters when the terms of reference for the Italians was 600, 98.8% full payload, safe – as a temporary measure? CH: Well I’m glad you came on sir because now the people know that you did do the terms of reference and you know all about the airport. Caller: Yes. I did the terms of reference and when the Italians came you all could have changed it because everything was subject to the new government. Everything went back on the drawing board. As a matter of fact, even the Housing Strategy, which we had, you all changed it to the detriment of the people. You all cancelled the Soft-Mortgage scheme and don’t tell the people anything. You all decided to use the money for selling houses at Lookout to give people material grants; when about 50% of the people out there can’t pay any rent. So when you sell the houses, how is it that money is going to give material grants? CH: I see you’re upset sir and continue to have a good day. Caller: No but what you’re saying, you’re telling lies. I supported the Party but you’re telling lies and I have to clear my name. CH: I’ll leave the people to make their judgment. BC: Thank you caller. Caller: Talk about what the Chief Minister say and what you’re stating now. Answer those. BC: Okay caller. Thank you very much. CH: Now we know who knows about the airport. We could not know as a government enough about the airport as he knows. I mean, he did the terms of reference, he piloted the whole thing through and then he’s saying we could come and we could have over-ruled him. Basically, that’s what he is saying. Government makes legally binding decisions and I don’t know about over-ruling them. I don’t know if he thinks that way about everything. I don’t want to get into more of that. The Chief Minister, in respect of his first question, already clarified his statement in respect of what the point he was making. That he said he is wise enough not to let the dogs get loose and be waiting for him before he even arrives in England to make the case. So he knew what he was doing. And the Chief Minister is a wise leader and I think he made the best judgment. Again, the listener or the caller can have his own view about what is said but I think what was said, was said, in the interest of prudence and diplomacy. And the Chief Minister is working as a wise man; he is not a blow hard, blow cold. So I certainly don’t know if I could say anything more than that. In respect of my own argument, my argument is that we can’t rely strictly on British aid to develop this country and we have to put ourselves to work and that we can’t give the impression that the government can negotiate and get everything done for this country. And we have to let loose all of the people of this country as economic actors to make their contribution. BC: Let’s take this call. Good morning, caller. Caller: Good morning. Just in response to just what happened there, I mean I would just like to add again, we have to be careful how we come out in the public and air certain things. Basil was asking the question that sometimes why is it that government is reluctant to come and discuss some issues with the people but one has to understand that within certain realms, there is protocol. Two parties cannot be in negotiation and then one party in the discussion goes out and discloses whatever is being discussed in the public until a final decision has been reached and then they can disclose what will happen. So the government has to be careful in terms of how it comes out and brings out the information to the general public because parties cannot be in negotiation and then one party be out there discussing whatever is happening. The other thing is, it’s just the same way of saying, please, (and to the previous caller) we have to be careful how we operate, in terms of being seen. We must, as Montserratians, as Claude was saying, not allowing one of the (I love that saying) not allowing one of the crabs to get out of the barrel, we have to be careful. We have to have to work together regardless of what has happened in the past. We have to get together, understand the issues involved. Because at the end of the day, it is we as a people, we are as a Montserrat, we are the ones who are going to be moving forward and in light of any means of whatever else we have out there. But Claude, when I was mentioning about the gloom and doom, let’s speak a little bit more about the backyard gardening. You went along the right lines when you were speaking about that but what I’m saying is you didn’t spend enough time on those issues so that people could get excited. I mean, you are an MP and once people hearing the excitement coming from you and saying look… I mean, yesterday my cousin gave me ten pounds of potatoes which they plant in their backyard and so and it is saying things like this which is going to encourage others to start doing it, which overall is going to have a domino effect in the whole island, where everybody is going to say well, you know if Claude could plant some potato and I see Claude got two left hand, I could do something, because I know I’ve got a left and right. I mean, putting a humorous side to it but the point I’m making let’s speak about more about the positive issues and let’s dwell a little bit more on the positive issues, not losing site of the constraints that we have. What I’m saying is, you know, bring… I said to one of the previous chief ministers, we keep saying volcanic crisis and I’m saying we should start calling it volcanic opportunity because there are so many places, where people, I mean millions of tourists go to see things where the volcano. There are so many products. Look at all these pictures that Kevin has being doing. Look at the products that have been made from, you know, the little ash in the bottle and stuff like that. These are opportunities that we have to take the benefits from but we need to speak a little bit more about them. Maybe we need to get in more meetings and strategize as to how we are going to deal with the situations that are put in front of us, I mean, along with the British. I mean, sometimes I think we are coming off too much with the British are out there like the devil with two horns and a spare tail. Regardless of even they are that way, we have to learn that, okay, that is what they are, how are we going to strategize to deal with that? And I don’t think we are looking at enough of that because a lot of times people pressure you as politicians because they have certain expectations, which are not really possible given the constraints which you outlined. So what I’m saying is maybe there’s a need to be a deeper discussion within our community whether it be from the village meetings or whatever else, but to bring more people involved so that they can understand the issues because, let me tell you, a lot of those grass roots people out there, they can give you the solutions to the problems. And that is why I am saying, bring all the people in; let’s get some more positive discussions about some of the positive things that are happening. Look, how many houses were built over at Lookout and people are in good houses and whatever else. Let’s speak about those positive issues. Let’s tell the people outside because when I tell my friends, you know, that there’s so many new houses and things are going on, you know, people don’t know. And a lot of people who come here they are surprised as to what we have because some people say hey, it’s better living here in Montserrat with the volcano than living in some of the other countries. And I’m saying these are the kind of things which we need to speak about, get others interested and tell our other regional partners these are some of the things that are happening in Montserrat. And even internationally, and even looking for investment internationally, as you said, I mean, OK, yes the British is doing a significant amount of aid to Montserrat but it is limited. So we need to go out there and look at the Michael Jordans and so who have the millions of dollars who are looking for opportunities like the other day I was listening to Bill Gates of Microsoft. They were looking for opportunities to give aid. Coming up soon, I think our Minister is going to a conference where Microsoft and them are doing something in the Caribbean so it is not that they are so unreachable. These are the kinds of things. There are opportunities but we need to speak more about these issues. BC: Thank you Caller: Hope I’m not taking up too much time. CH: Never. Never. You can never take up too much time. I was listening to you with rapt attention and certainly I need you in my caucus. You have ideas but I think you have made one, well, several good points but one of them I want to talk about Basil. One is, we need to get into more in-house talking to each other and we need… Well I now have a number of speaking appointments, including speaking with the Rotary Club, not the Rotary, the Rotaract Club and other clubs and a number of other programs coming up which I’ll be speaking on. I will be forceful for the people of Montserrat. I applaud, like the Chief Minister, the support the British have been giving to Montserrat. They have been giving good support. They’ve given support when we needed it most, when nobody else was queuing up to give us support but I believe that we have potential to do a lot for ourselves and to make our country big time. And let me give you an example of where I know that not only in Montserrat but, in the international community that people realize the potential that Montserrat has. FIFA has granted a multi-million dollar project to develop a football facility in Montserrat. I was very proud to be alongside the President, Vincent Cassell, in those negotiations. I’m going to leave the negotiations with the British and DFID to civil servants. I don’t even want to get involved. I’m going to deal with other international companies and people who could bring money into this country. And during the election campaign, I did say to the people we are going to bring home that project from FIFA and you need to go up on Blake’s site. It has started and it looks wonderful. I must congratulate Vincent on playing Project Manager and having things going so smoothly. We need more Montserratians like that to come forward and just find out niche areas, niche markets where monies are available to do things and just pursue it relentlessly, do the project paper. Montserratians can write; we can read. We are the most literate society in the Caribbean so we have the potential. We know how to do the formulas. If you need help, pick up any economist, any old one of us, anybody who knows about putting political flair on words and we’ll help. And it takes time. You have to be patient. This guy, Vincent and them started this thing, I think, from since 19, probably 97 or thereabouts to try to get… 96 to try and get a thing and it took them until 2001. They didn’t give up. They were tired of doing over paper work and in the end they got millions of U.S. dollars sustaining the young people, providing positive distraction from otherwise deviant behavior and giving them an opportunity to maybe someday, one of our footballers become a millionaire, one go. BC: Good morning caller. Go ahead please. Caller: Hi, Good morning. Yes. I’d just like to mention something, which may have been lost in all the talk about the airport and such. Mr. Hogan mentioned something about a notion of devolution in Montserrat. Well, I’d like him to just come back home to Montserrat and recognize the true situation on the ground. All right? And recognize that nothing about how the British are operating in Montserrat these days suggest any move towards devolution. And, in fact, everything that they’ve done of late, including the British Citizenship Bill, suggest a maintenance of the colonial status. Recognize that, Mr. Hogan. CH: Sir that is what devolution is. I said that devolution is not… Caller: That has nothing to do… Devolution is what is going on in Wales and Scotland. That is not what is going on in Montserrat. Recognize that. Thank you very much, sir. BC: You want to comment on that? CH: That is exactly what devolution is. It is what is going on in Wales, Scotland and Montserrat. It takes different forms. In the end, they are not really letting you go. They are re-defining their engagement with you in a fundamental way that they stay in control of certain fundamental areas, which will be defined in our constitution. And as I said that’s a topic for another forum and I’ll discuss it at that point. But devolution is occurring in Montserrat and devolution, let people don’t get confused, is not about releasing you, it is about re-wrapping you in a different form. It gives certain additional powers to politicians but it does not give freedom to the people. And I don’t need to recognize what… I understand what I’m talking about. Maybe he has a different definition. Maybe he thinks devolution means freedom or going towards independence but on the contrary, it does not mean going towards independence at all. It’s a new form of colonization and I said that before. When you hear local politicians talk about it, you’ll feel it’s something great, that we need it. We need to run our own affairs because that’s how they say it. We need to run the service, the public service and blah, blah, blah. Right? And a lot of that is part of it but underneath it is a strategy being implemented. It is not something that you’re winning because of a fight. Freedom is something you have to fight for. And this constitutional debate we are going to have, we’re going to have to fight for a lot of things or we’re going to end up in tighter wrapping and it’s going to be new, so it’s going to be harder to break. BC: Good morning caller. Thanks for waiting. Caller: Good morning. Hi. I’d like to say I’ve been made very clear this morning listening to the different calls and the different information being disseminated on this radio program that it is evident that the government of Montserrat does not think the people of Montserrat can handle the truth. So they make an avid effort of painting these pretty fairy tale pictures that they think will make us deal with life a whole lot better. But the fact is that we can handle the truth. We want the truth and anything but the truth is just an insult to our intelligence and our integrity. We could care less who lets out the secrets or when they do it. We want to know what is going on with Montserrat. And we are capable of handling it. We are tired of your lies. We are tired of all your little political run-arounds and name-callings and finger-pointings. We are right here. Our eyes are open and we want action. End of story. BC: Thank you caller. Claude I have a problem. I have a problem with politicians in that it amazes me that, you know, coming up to elections time and you’d see every politician. I mean those who are elected and those who are not. And they mingle; they are everywhere with people. You know, getting ideas, you know, saying things, telling you exactly what they want to do. And it amazes me that whenever politicians get into office they seldom do the same things they used to do. I would have thought that this is the opportunity now after you’re in to come back out there on the street, mingle with the same people who put you in. Go and talk, you know, see what they are saying, feel them out; see what the vibes is. It is very important. And I am surprised that politicians don’t take up this opportunity… CH: You say politicians like it’s all of us. I’m doing the same things. BC: No, no. Oh, Claude. What I’m saying, if I was a politician, I know that, of course, I would be much busier now but I must find the time to go back and mingle and search and seek and find out, understand what my people are thinking. You know, you can’t stay in your house and figure, oh well everything is good and all that. I don’t understand it and I don’t like it. CH: Politics is a very complex game my friend, very complex. You’re dealing with all sorts of forces … BC: A lot of people don’t play it right though. CH: … and people are not telling lies. People, politicians try to explain what is happening in the society the way they see it. They give you their perspective and we have to engage with the information we receive and process it to suit our circumstances. And nobody will willfully come on any national radio at any time to tell people lies. It is not political to do that. But you have to explain things and sometimes from a perspective that is not quite clear to the ordinary man. And, I try my best to break it down to simple language, which is what I’m doing here today coming right to the root of the problem because I believe that the grass roots must be spoken to at the grass roots level. And I try to break down when we talk about economy that we mean people working and getting a salary and paying their taxes. And if you can’t work, there’s really no economy because you can’t buy food; you can’t pay for services, all of those things. And the services you buy are provided by somebody else. And that other person can’t get food on their table unless you buy their service. This is what the economy is about: People working with people, for people, by people, and of people. There is no need for anybody to tell anybody any lies because this is about all of us in one pot. We need a lot of political education in the country for people to understand that (especially in this day and age) you can’t just go with your cup in your hand to collect money from people. You have to go with a case, a case that there is, for example, poverty because there is poverty in Montserrat. There are endless people on the welfare system. And I’ve said to a friend of mine that this is the case we have to make to bring about real improvement in the life of people in Montserrat—that for example, there are some people if you took away, if you took them off welfare and you took away their government house and so on, what would they have left? And those people should have something so that they could leave for their children and their children’s children. BC: And let me congratulate you Claude. I think that, you know, you are one of the most reachable people, if you’re with me Claude I think that you are one of the most reachable politicians in Montserrat. And I must congratulate you and I hope that you don’t change from being that because then you have a lot of people who might be admiring you and then you don’t want to disappoint people. CH: I was born that way and I went to school with James White and Sonnie Phillip and all the ordinary people in Montserrat. BC: But politicians need to be reached and I think that it’s very important, you know, that guys stay with the people. The people need to know and I think that is how it should be. Good morning caller. Caller: Good morning. I tried to get in much more earlier but I couldn’t get in. But I have listened to Claude and from the beginning to now and let me tell you, he ended up just now with a few words that Dr. Lewis had to end up with the night when he spoke. He said I get on the radio to explain things to people and it seems as if he can’t get them to understand what he is trying to tell them. Now Basil there are just a few down to earth people in the world and on Montserrat, too. And I think the problem is that they can’t, they don’t seem to understand and see where Claude and Dr. Lewis and a few other people are coming from. The point is we have to take it easy. We have to try to push things but at the same time you still have to take it easy because you have nothing to push up yourself with. I mean, God says, he helps those who can help themselves. And if you start to help yourself, say now if we had money in Montserrat to start that airport down there, we could have done something better. But because the volcano is on Montserrat, the people who have the money, they are not thinking the way we are thinking who live on Montserrat. And that is a problem. And then, I mean, everybody is going to come in with all sorts of things but the backbone of it, we are not sure how Montserrat is going to end up. We are just living here under the almighty, under the hands of the almighty. And with that, plenty money, plenty, plenty money Britain is not going to spend on Montserrat. And that is a big problem. And the smaller, we smaller people and plenty people don’t seem to could understand what Claude and Dr. Lewis and some other people are telling them. But what they are saying is what I have been saying all the time, but you see I’m not from Montserrat so I’m just taking it easy. And Claude I thank you for how you explained yourself this morning in the… after going to relax and then come back, you came back and hit them hard and I like what you did and what you said. And I thank you very much for your talk. Who don’t understand you, just can’t understand you and those who can, well, thank God for that. CH: Well, thank you very much. I was listening to Paul Keens-Douglas the other night and what you said just now make me want to re-quote Paul Keens. You can’t just listen to the words that the man is speaking, you have to listen, it’s a funny way, listen to the picture he is painting, not just the words but the picture. And in a few sentences I can tell you a whole lot. And I don’t know, that lady seems to be Montserratian at heart. Thank you very much for your compliment and we never even answered the question about Australia yet and we started on Australia. BC: Exactly, I don’t even think we can answer that. We are going to take our final call this morning. Good morning, caller. Caller: Morning. I like the way Hogan is talking about the lies and so on. There is no need to tell lies. I want to know why all the politicians, listen to me, it’s not explaining they just blatant lie. Is it a ball game on their behalf or they think people don’t know truth from lies? From since last week to Brandt this morning I am hearing all kind of denial and one blaming the other. Man it’s nothing but explaining it’s life and that’s it. Life is not truth, is it man? I’m going about my business. BC: Thanks a lot. That’s going to be our final call for this morning. Claude I want to thank you very much for stepping in. CH: Thank you for having me Basil and Australia was empowering. Thanks very much to Dr. Fergus. All of what I just said maybe is influenced by my Australia experience. It was really wonderful exposure meeting up with 700 parliamentarians from across the commonwealth, 54 countries, 173 parliaments and politicians can really speak, boy. I thought I could speak but these boys down there could speak and they believe in the progress and the development of their country and their people and I’ve caught the fever. And I want Montserratians to be free because when you are free, when you get a little taste of this thing called freedom, you can’t look back. You work hard, you look for yourself, you look for your children and you look for your people. And freedom is just one thing that really causes the country, any country to develop and I’ve really seen that. So, thank you Dr. Fergus for letting me go to Australia. I don’t really know if I want to go back though. The flight was really terrible. I was sick for a whole week after I got back and I’m really trying to get better so I’m not at 100% yet. So, by next week or so I’ll be on the radio again, I think on another forum on another topic. In the mean time, folks have a good day. Think positive. Do your little backyard gardening or whatever else you can do. Think up little projects and let’s get our own little ideas going here. Let’s not get locked into some kind of DFID or other British framework. That will help. Let the people in the public service who would have to deal with headaches deal with them and let us deal with our own development. We’ll have to run this country our way. Thank you. BC: Thanks a lot Claude. Good to see you.