Mat Duties
(Extracted from Aikido-L)
[ * Moderator: Original Post Removed * ]
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Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2002 11:20:02 -0700
From: A J Garcia
Subject: Re: Need some Advice on Dojo Matter(s) & Discipline
[ * Moderator: Cut * ]
One of my training venues is at one of the local colleges. We are in the same
spot with assembling and disassembling portable mats.
Hard as it may be, I would suggest bringing the matter up with your teacher,
perhaps mentioning how discouraged the few who are left to do all the work at
the end are getting, and the time pressures it puts on them. As your teacher,
he is guiding you not only in learning physical aikido, but also the mental
harmonizing and perception necessary to the art--and cooperation is a large part
of that.
Periodically, when folks seem to be slacking off, our teacher reminds everyone
to please stay and give a hand with taking up the mats. It works wonders.
Al
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Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2002 18:24:45 +0000
From: Daniele Procida
Subject: Re: Need some Advice on Dojo Matter(s) & Discipline
[ * Moderator: Cut * ]
>Well, here comes the problem. Before each class, everyone joins in laying
>out the mat. Amount of effort put in by each person is besides the point,
>but at least EVERYONE does it. Sad to say, this is never the case at the end
>of class.
Given your junior position in the club it won't be easy for you to broach the
subject. Try an opposite tack: dedicate yourself to putting the mats out and
away again afterwards. Be the first to arrive and the last to leave. It's not a
menial task, or unimportant, it's an essential one.
Don't do it in a spirit of resentment, or make a scene of it. Just do it quietly
and efficiently, by yourself. If the club is a good one someone will realise
what's going on, and will (eventually) respond appropriately. And you will be
setting a good example, and training yourself into the bargain.
Daniele
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Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2002 14:09:36 -0500
From: jdsingleton
Subject: Re: Need some Advice on Dojo Matter(s) & Discipline
An interesting topic/question.
We, too, share our space, so we need to put down the mats four times a week and
pick them up four times a week. (We leave them down on Friday
nights, so we don't have to pick them up then and don't have to put them down on
Saturday morning.) Normally, we have 56 mats 1m x 2m down, although on Thursdays
we often only put down 42. (Thursday classes tend to be small.)
When it comes to picking up the mats, we have a similar problem, where not
everyone helps. On Saturdays, a few people might sneak out, but most
people help. During the week, however, it seems that only a handful of people
put the mats up.
After the evening's first class, unless a lot of people are staying for the
second class, we'll pick up anywhere from a third to half the mats. There are
always people who seem to find some sort of "excuse" not to help, whether it's
talking with a visitor, talking to another student, folding their hakama,
getting a drink, etc. (Personally, I usually use the water excuse, since I
absolutely hate to pick the mats up, considering it just about the worst chore
in the dojo.*)
My advise would be to talk to one or two of the senior students, preferably the
ones who help pick the mats up. Have them talk to their peers and the others.
The more people that help, the easier it is on everyone and it should go faster.
Whenever we see that only a few people are picking them up, someone usually says
something. It also helps that a couple of the senior students are more than
willing to address someone in front of everyone and tell them to help.
There will always be a few people who will try and weasel out of helping. Other
than someone talking to them, I'm not sure what you can do about it. Most
people, however, appear to be willing to help when we talk to them.
You touch on the military and we have a number of ex-military who just see it as
something that needs to be done and just do it. That goes for when we need to
clean the dojo, move mats, etc. Maybe it's not a lack of discipline that causes
others not to do this, but a lack of a sense of responsibility. Maybe they need
to be reminded that the dojo is not just the physical structure, but also the
people, so everyone needs to pitch in and help.
Jim Singleton
* - Lest anyone think I never help pick up the mats, I almost always
help pick the mats up after Saturday classes or if I stay for the second
class during the week. On the other hand, I put all the mats down by
myself, so a number of people insist that I shouldn't have to pick any
up. (Although I don't like picking them up, it's something that needs to
be done.)
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Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2002 14:45:12 -0500
From: Katherine Derbyshire
Subject: Re: Need some Advice on Dojo Matter(s) & Discipline
Why don't the people who are taking the mats down simply ask for help?
"Hey, <student's name>, could you give me a hand with this, please?"
This forces the student directly asked for help to either (a) help or (b) come
up with a lame excuse. It also forces the other students to realize that help is
in fact needed. Keep doing this until the number of volunteers gets back to an
acceptable level.
Ideally, the more senior students among those helping would ask the more senior
students among those not helping, thereby creating an atmosphere of "everyone
should help with this." Less formally, anyone helping should feel free to ask
the closest non-helping person, whether male or female, junior or senior.
If this approach doesn't work, you may need to back it up with a Dojo Edict,
which would require the cooperation and support of the instructors. At my dojo,
we would be very embarrassed if Sensei were forced to get involved in something
like this, and would make sure it was taken care of at a much lower level.
Katherine
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Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2002 14:01:33 -0700
From: Jun Akiyama
Subject: Re: Need some Advice on Dojo Matter(s) & Discipline
Katherine Derbyshire wrote:
> Why don't the people who are taking the mats down simply ask for help?
Exactly. If there's a chance during the class to make announcements and such,
why not just say, "Can people please help out with picking up the mats and
cleaning after class? Thank you."
If it's something that needs to be done, then people need to get together and do
it.
Jun
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Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2002 17:08:31 -0500
From: Monica Norman
Subject: Re: Need some Advice on Dojo Matter(s) & Discipline
[ * Moderator: Cut * ]
> Being a beginner, I find it kind of awkward to point out such a situation to
peers & seniors. I would really hate to bring this matter up with my Sensei as I
feel that this is a really trivial matter. ...
(snip)
It's not really that trivial in one sense. I started Aikido in one of those UK
dojos. Since I had no children and lived fairly close, I was usually (not
always) the only one there early to lay out the mats. That didn't bother me
much. I was most junior and it was my way of repaying the time and patience of
my teachers (we were a non-profit club).
After class we _all_ helped pick up the mats, including Sensei and the seniors
(good thing, since there were usually only 4-8 of us and there were LOTS of
heavy mats!). Basically, unless you had a pressing reason to leave, you were
expected to help.
I agree, it would be a shame to have to introduce regimental-style discipline.
I think the thing that makes the difference is the attitude of Sensei and the
senior people. If folks know the expectation is there for them to help, they'll
help. And I feel (IMHO) that expectation needs to come from the Sensei, or at
least the senior yudansha, who should also remind people (as a group) if they
slack off.
So if it were me, and it was beginning to cause some bad feeling among the
students who did and the students who didn't, I'd say something, though not in a
mean-spirited way of course. Maybe speak to the most senior black belt if you
don't feel comfortable talking to your Sensei about it. After all, the sooner
the mats are put away, the sooner you can get to the pub for a beer! :-)
Monica
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Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2002 19:05:13 -0500
From: Scooterman269
Subject: Re: Mat duty
[ * Moderator: Cut * ]
And I've been guilty of being late off the mat, late to change & consequently
the mats were all done & everyone's ready to go home... all without my lifting a
finger [I try to make sure I'm not so far out of sync the next class so I can do
my part].
What should you do? [Hey, you asked]
Put your head down & do as much as you can REGARDLESS of what anyone else does.
Just as you notice those who help & who don't, others will notice your
helping... or not.
You should also notice a change in how willing *some* others suddenly are to
help you get over a rough technique & etc... notably, the old timers that
*always* help to roll up the mats after class.
Trying to get the others to help [esp if they've devoloped the habit of coasting
thru their duties] is akin to a small child going "Mom... I'm cleaning my room
but [insert name] won't help".
Catch my drift?
But... what do I know? I'm new.
Scoot
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Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2002 18:58:04 +0100
From: Kjartan Clausen
Subject: Re: Mat Duty
[ * Moderator: Cut * ]
}Who me? But I'm just a beginner. I suspect that I lack the necessary
}interpersonel skills to sort this matter out properly. Wouldn't exactly want
}to tread on anyone's toes.
Just be bold enough and it's probably going to work out fine. If toes need to be
stepped on, find your steel plated, stiletto-heeled boots and stomp hard.
I started off my second semester by pissing off the head instructor who asked
for criticism of a demo, but apparantly hadn't expected anything other than
"very good". When I pointed out obvious flaws, that was not appreciated. Later
though, when I was about to leave, I overheard her scolding the senior students
for the flaws I had pointed out.
The point is that very often what is needed is an outsiders/beginners view of
the situation. It might not be appreciated there and then, but if the comments
are appropriate, they are going to be used if the people in change of the dojo
have any common sense.
--
Kjartan Clausen Aikido is Origami with people instead of paper (tm)
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Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2002 15:17:37 -0500
From: Simon Watkins
Subject: Re: Mat Duty
As I kid I read tons of Enid Blyton. in one storY I recall Fatty had been in
disguise and so he sat down to dinner to a meal with dirty fingernails. he tried
to conceal them but his mother noticed and he found himself in trouble. Seems to
me that is the problem here somethings not right and you dont want to draw
attention to it. I could nrver understand that scene. When I wondered, he
noticed that his nails were dirty did he not say. "Excuse me, my nails are still
dirty." and there would have been no problem. Irimi is not conflict it is
aproaching a problem postively.
Why dont you just turns to the nearest bloke and ask them for a hand. Just ask
once every night. Dont worry if they give a lousy excuse just thank them anyway.
Their reasons legitimate or or otherwise are for them to resolve. Be polite and
friendly, aikido works best with contact.
Simon
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Date: Sat, 30 Mar 2002 14:38:53 +0800
From: Aylwin Tan
Subject: Re: OT Respect - How to draw a Line (Was Mat Duty)
[ * Moderator: Cut * ]
I'll try that. But this brings a question to mind. Isn't knowingly offending
someone being disrespectful? In Aikido, how does one achieve a resolution
peacefully and yet not make you a complete walkover for others? Can someone
explain how they managed to apply this successfully? Or unsuccessfully?
Aylwin Tan
"One does not need buildings, money, power, or status to practice the Art of
Peace. Heaven is right where you are standing, and that is the place to
train." -- O-Sensei Morihei Ueshiba
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Date: Sat, 30 Mar 2002 11:46:02 -0800
From: Flying Monkey
Subject: Re: OT Respect - How to draw a Line (Was Mat Duty)
> > From: Kjartan Clausen
> > Just be bold enough and it's probably going to work out
> > fine. If toes need to be stepped on, find your steel plated,
> > stiletto-heeled boots and stomp hard.
First things first: That was a wonderful quote. Happily, I didn't have my soda
pop in hand at the time, or it would have been coming out of my nose.
> I'll try that. But this brings a question to mind. Isn't
> knowingly offending someone being disrespectful?
Hey, you ask fun questions!
Based on my own personal experience, I would have to say yes. And no. IMHO, it
really depends on the intent of the person doing the offending. I've offended
many people, but the intent was to convince them to do something that was
beneficial for THEM. To me, that's actually a form of respect. It means I
either like or care about someone enough that it matters more to me that they're
okay than that they're not angry with me. Classic example is offending friends
who are about to do something stupid (especially under the influence of alcohol,
etc.) in such a way that they don't do the stupid thing. I'm willing to live
with their wrath for a little while until they realize that I wasn't trying to
spoil their fun but to save them some heartache.
(Or to use my father's more extreme example: If you shove someone, that's
offensive. But what if your shoving them kept them from falling in front of an
oncoming train?)
On the other hand, if the goal of the offender is to cause offense or harm
(calling someone a f***king idiot because you don't agree with them), then it is
most certainly a disrespectful act.
Now here's my question for you: are you wanting everyone to help out because it
is the correct thing for them to be doing? Or do you want them to help out
because you don't want to do it yourself? Don't bother answering me, just think
about it and answer yourself because you're the only one who will be able to
know for sure. If you want their help because you don't want to do it, that's
fair. You shouldn't be stuck with all the work. But you should probably avoid
offending anyone in that case.
:oP
Angie
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Last updated on 13 Sep 2002